Woman's Hour - Emily Ratajkowski, Republicanism in Barbados, Josephine Baker

Episode Date: November 30, 2021

Emily Ratajkowski is an American model, entrepreneur & writer. She rocketed to fame aged 21 when she took part in Robin Thicke’s music video, Blurred Lines. At the time Emily argued that the provocative display of her body represented a form of feminist empowerment. In her first book, My Body, she argues something more nuanced. The chemist Boots is in the firing line from campaigners. For Black Friday, Boots halved the price of the morning-after-pill and now campaigners want the reduced price to become permanent. Emma is joined by journalist Rose Stokes & Diana Johnson, Labour MP. Yesterday was big news for the Caribbean island of Barbados, as it cuts ties with the British Crown to become a republic. The country has sworn in its first president - Dame Sandra Mason. Celestina Olulode reporter for BBC World Service, joins Emma from Barbados.89-year-old barrister Margaret Owen OBE recently embarked on a 6-day hunger strike to raise awareness of the case of British-Iranian detainee Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe. Margaret’s protest followed the 21-day hunger strike by Nazanin’s husband Richard Ratcliffe. She joins Emma to talk about the experience and what she wanted to achieve.American-born French singer & dancer Josephine Baker is about to become the first black woman to be immortalised in the Pantheon mausoleum in Paris. She broke boundaries in the 1930s with performances mocking colonialism and became an international star. She was also a resistance fighter for France during World War II and had a role in the civil rights movement in the US. Research fellow at Trinity College, Cambridge Adjoa Osei joins Emma.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. First I'm going to start with an update as journalists were often brilliant when a story breaks but not quite as good at keeping with it and sharing what happens next. You may remember last week we reported on the bizarre political situation in Sweden where only after seven hours the country's first female prime minister, Magdalena Andersson, resigned. Well, now she is back in the job after another narrow vote by her colleagues. So Sweden does, in fact, have its first female leaders, as the world's newest republic, Barbados, wakes up to a new dawn and future,

having officially removed Her Majesty the Queen as its head of state last night, we hear how the country's first president, a 72-year-old woman by the name of Dame Sandra Mason, is being received. A warning, in that dispatch from Barbados, you will hear the beautiful sound of the ocean. And I imagine pine for warmer climes. I certainly did while having that conversation, which you will hear the beautiful sound of the ocean and I imagine pine for warmer climes. I certainly did while having that conversation, which you'll hear shortly. Today, Josephine Baker, the American-born French performer famed in 1920s Paris, is going to be the first black woman

immortalised in the Pantheon Mausoleum. And we're going to be finding out what her impact was and why she's being remembered. And I'll be talking to the barrister, Margaret Owen, and finding out why, aged 89, she went on hunger strike last week for six days. But first, I'm joined by Emily Ratajkowski, an American model, actress, entrepreneur and now writer,

with nearly 30 million followers on Instagram. She rocketed to world fame aged 21 when she took part in Robin Thicke's now infamous music video Blurred Lines, where Emily and her fellow models writhed almost naked, I should say, but completely topless in front of three fully clothed male musicians to a soundtrack telling a good girl, you know you want it. that that provocative display of her body represented a form of feminist empowerment. Well, now she has a book out, a series of essays called My Body, which she's in the UK at the moment promoting, and in which she acknowledges how her allure has brought her fame and fortune, but also reflects on how limited any woman's power is when she survives and even succeeds in the world as a thing to be looked at.

Before I say hello to Emily, what is your take on this? Of course, you're going to hear our conversation and anything you wish to say and get in touch over, please do. You know, I always want to hear from you. But looks still matter, particularly for women. How do you navigate that? What choices do you make? What choices don't? 84844 is the number you need to text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. Get in touch text me here at Woman's Hour. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, get in touch with me at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through our website.

Emily Ratajkowski, good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me, Emma. Well, thanks for coming on to Woman's Hour. Thanks for talking to me and to our listeners. And I thought I'd start with, have you actually changed your mind? Yes, certainly. In the introduction of the book, I sort of lay out the way that my politics have evolved. That being said, I don't kind of find

complete answers in my essays. And I'm still searching and still trying to understand what empowerment truly is for a woman. Yes, and that's clear. And you know, one thing doesn't have to be that clear one way or the other, does it? But it's interesting to hear about when people change their minds and why they change their minds. What was it for you?

Well, I think that it's important to have a little bit of context. You know, I was 21 years old when the video was released and I'd come into my body quite early. I hit puberty very young and I was very used to the type of shaming that, you know, involves snapping bra straps, talking about what I should be wearing or covering my body or what I, you know, that kind of thing. And I'd built up a really hardened sense of defiance around that attitude.

I didn't feel like I needed to apologize for the way I looked and I wanted to celebrate it and even capitalize off of it. And, you know, I hadn't expected the fame that came with the video. the other important piece of context is that I was a working model who was used to doing catalog shoots and, you know, essentially creepy lingerie shoots with male photographers who are much older than me. And the Blurred Lines set was actually filled with women. There was a female director, cinematographer, makeup artist, prop designer. And I felt incredibly relaxed and respected on that set for the most part. And I felt protective of that environment. And there's women that I really liked who had worked hard to make me feel that way. Not the entire time, of course, that you were on the set, which you have spoken about. Yes, that's correct.

In terms of just to share with our listeners, you recall Robin Thicke, as you alleged, Yes, that's correct. and didn't talk about or really tell anyone, even people close to me, about that part of the shooting. It was actually also when you noticed you went to look at his Instagram feed, I believe, and you were blocked from that. And that prompted you to think about that again? Yeah, because I was wondering why he would have blocked me and was kind of racking my brain, you know, if there was something that I'd said in the press. And then I remembered that incident on set and sent the director of the video a message sort of saying, like, is that why do you think? And we don't know or you don't know? I will probably I never know. I mean, I should say Robin Thicke has been contacted since your book came out and what you've been talking about for comments, and he has still yet to comment to the press.

We've also asked for a statement today on the program. Have you heard anything from his camp? Because these allegations are obviously very much out there now. No, I haven't. Would that be a conversation you would entertain? Absolutely. But I also think that, you know, talking about the evolution of my politics and talking about that experience on set wasn't, you know, my end goal wasn't sort of a gotcha moment for him or, you know, trying to hold him accountable. It was, I wanted to shine a light

on the larger power dynamics that I experienced in the industry. And, you know, with the thing that I had spoken about in such a particular way for so long, talking about the way, you know, the full reality of that situation. I'm going to just share a message that came in straight away. And I really like hearing from our listeners when we're doing this. It's the joy of a live programme. And it will be a message you'll be familiar with because I know you engage with this sort of exchange and also this sort of debate. And Alex, who's written in to say,

Emily is one of those cunning celebrities who profits from selling her provocative, almost naked photos and yet presents herself as a feminist. On the one hand, we talk about the mental health crisis among the young and on the other, celebrities manipulate us by promoting their products. Yeah, I completely understand that argument, but I would say that, you know, to me, that sounds a lot like slut shaming. I wouldn't fault any woman for trying to capitalize off of her appearance. And I think that we ask women to adjust and change. And it's really easy to place blame on, say, Britney Spears for being Britney Spears and making women feel a young way

when we now have a better understanding of, you know, where she thought she was in control, the power that she did gain, and also, you know, the problems that arose from that for her as well. But I suppose it's just you have written this book and you want to have this kind of debate, I presume, by writing it or you tell me why you wrote it. Yeah, I wrote this book sort of to open a conversation, you know, about how should a woman think about empowerment? How should one survive in this system? You know, the truth of the matter is, is that I wouldn't be on the show. I think it would be less likely I would be on the show or in London promoting a bestselling book had I not capitalized off of my

image and built the following that I do. And, you know, a lot of the programs that have me on and the journalists that invite me to speak, they also are capitalizing on the same attention economy that has brought me to this place. So I think, you know, for me, it feels really important that to acknowledge how I've sort of gained the influence that I have, while also feeling okay about talking about my experiences and the complex realities of them. I mean, I think that that's where you do a service to young women because of course I would never tell a young woman not to model. I think that there's obviously so many benefits. I, again, don't think I would be here if I wasn't talking about it. And as you said, when we started the program, looks do matter. That's just the reality for young women in this world.

That being said, I also would need and encourage her to read my book and understand that there's no such thing as winning in this culture as a woman. But within the book, you don't come down on either side. You're very clear about that. Yes, you may have changed your mind about that particular video. I mean, would you still do that video today? Uh, yeah, I would still have done that. I mean, it's so hard to say because again, that's the video that sort of gave me the initial platform to, to build my life. So how could I say that I, I wouldn't do it. Um, and I was in a very particular position. Um, you know, there were so

many factors. I really was doing that video for money, not for any kind of fame. It was, you know, a decent day rate, essentially. But it wasn't just the video that changed, you know, that I have changed my mind around. It's about the idea of choice feminism. I don't actually really believe in choice feminism anymore. I don't think that it's possible for women to make choices that are completely empowered and in the structure that we live in. What do you mean by that? I mean, for example, when we talk about sex positive, free love, and we think about, you know, women having casual sex on a date. Of course, I would love to live in a world where if a woman

wants to sleep with a man, she'll be empowered in the same way or have that kind of choice without any complications that would arise in the way that I think a man would. But I don't think it's that simple. I think that there are power dynamics between men and women that don't allow for casual sex to be as casual for women as we like to imagine. So I think that, you know, in many ways, choice feminism sort of skips a step and it doesn't acknowledge the larger patriarchal culture that we exist in. So why was that person who messaged in, why was she slut shaming you? Because you sound like you agree. Oh, I don't know if I agree. I don't think that I shouldn't be able to talk about these things. I think that for me, the slut shaming aspect of that is sort of like, well, look at how she's represented herself in the world. She's not allowed to talk about feminism. i think that that is problematic um i think that it's it reminds

me of the way that we'll talk about young girls you know say oh that skirt is too short or she you know had a low shirt on she was asking for it in some way you know um it it doesn't if it's obviously different but it feels like it's from the same, cut from the same cloth. I'm just trying to understand where you think there is the choice then and where the freedom is and where there isn't having gone through what you've gone through. Well, I don't believe in choice feminism anymore. Because I suppose the issue is, however empowering, you know, you also talk in the book about a photographer who you alleged has taken advantage, sold your image on your behalf, something he did on his behalf, excuse me, something he denies. But you also talk about the kind of, you know, the exploitation of the whole modelling industry and how you didn't just want and you don't just want to be a body.

But now you post, as I say, you've got nearly 30 million fans on Instagram followers, I should say. You don't know if they're all fans, social media being what it is. And some would argue, I've had it only recently on the programme, some women would argue it's very empowering because you can now choose the photos yourself to post and you're in charge of your image. You've got the choice there. And because you still post photos at times of yourself in bikinis or whatever else, that's where people have the issue that you don't seem perhaps

like you have fully changed your mind. Well, I haven't. I mean, I guess I don't think that it's empowering, though, in the same way that I did. I think that Instagram has certainly offered me a lot of control. And I would say sort of that was a mistake of my being younger, thinking that control was empowerment. Again, though, I still don't totally know what

empowerment means. I mean, as a young person, I could say it's success, it's fame, it's fulfillment or it's attention from other people. I think that there's a lot of ways that we can kind of, that, you know, we use that word so casually and so frequently. I've certainly experienced control through Instagram. And again, you know, I guess there's some kind of power in the fact that when I, you know, have a lot of followers that maybe follow me because they saw a bikini picture at one point they like, and then they want to read my book. That's, you know, that's exciting. But again, you you know the book is really personal experiences that chronicle sort of my contradictions the ways I've been complicit um even not as a model but just as a

young girl trying to navigate um you know the power and also the exploitation um and you know if I may you don't think it's empowering to post bikini photos on Instagram, but you still do it. I think it's, there's some kind of control in it. And I also have a business. I sell bathing suits. Yeah, well, I was going to point that out as well.

But I suppose the point is, you know, there's another image of you the other day, you know, sucking a lollipop, I think for a magazine in a sexual way. There's some who say you've changed your mind and yet you still post those photos. Whatever the photo is, you can pick a different example if you wish. And they see that as being in conflict because even, you know, even if you do control it, maybe you don't view it as empowering. It can be argued, it has been argued by some women that the message going out doesn't change because you're sending it.

It doesn't make a difference to those scrolling. You're not going to change anything if you like working for the male gaze if you continue to feed it. OK, but I have a question for you. I mean, you know, would you say then that if a woman calls herself a feminist and wears a push-up bra and a low-cut shirt that she's in contradiction i have the question for you from our listeners and what they're saying about you i haven't written a book about it oh but i don't know if i've written a book about it um i mean i wrote a book you've written a book full of essays where you've tried to have it you know and i think it's fascinating and there's's so many stories in there that really highlight exactly what you say, trying to navigate, you know, control versus exploitation.

So that's why I'm asking you the question. My answer to that is that I don't think that a young girl wearing a low cut shirt and a push up bra can't talk about feminism and about how she's tried to navigate the world the same way that I think sex workers should, you know, have rights and also be able to talk about feminism and what it means to be a woman. But my question actually wasn't about and that's a that's another point that we can come to. But my question wasn't about whether you should be allowed to talk about it. I was framing it, of course, within the book. It was the question that some have for you that you say you've changed your mind, but some expected then perhaps your Instagram content to vary. That was the question i mean i think that my instagram content does vary um but i just i guess i don't totally

understand why someone you know i guess i understand the kind of pulse to say okay she should have this enlightened moment where she stops capitalizing off of her image and her body yes that that would be so you know some some people would put it like that yeah um it's just not that simple for me because I've obviously had so much success and so many benefits to doing that so it's not something that I feel you know like I have to ease you know give up and and in the way I mean I still have my business um and I feel like I can post about this book and then also post my body if I want do you think do you think there is a bigger damage done um by that continuing to be how some women can get power because you talk a lot about that what the power

is um I don't think that those women um should not have that opportunity to do that um you know again like i think that we you look at actresses and models and then we blame them for our culture and i think that we kind of do that in general with women hello can you hear me oh i'm so sorry we've just had an interruption on the line forgive us for that please carry on we're all on a group video call here and we need to get somebody to mute. This is the time we're living in a global pandemic. Emily, please continue. No, I mean, I just think that, you know, I would never fault a woman for trying to succeed in this world. And I don't think that that's what's going to necessarily change our culture is, you know,

me all of a sudden deciding that I'm no longer going to show my body, whether it be in the way I represent myself online or just in the way I dress. What do you think will make it change? No one's putting it all at your feet. It was just to get your view because you've written this book. What do you think will make it change that women don't have that as an option for power, that they have to be nearly naked in a room of clothed men? I mean, I think that part of it is just, you know, a lot of women talking about their experiences and saying, kind of having a baseline conversation about the power dynamics that women deal with in their work and at home and just walking down the street. I think that, you know, a lot of

women's experiences feel inconvenient and women hold a lot of shame around them. They blame themselves, which is why, again, I am, you know, particularly not interested in that argument of sort of like, well, we have to, you know, women shouldn't dress this way. Women shouldn't post certain pictures of themselves online. I think that's, know very easy to say but it also puts the blame on women and divides us ultimately um i think what we need to do is do you feel do you feel if i may just put coming to that point do you feel you've been played do you feel like you have been utterly exploited and that perhaps you're still being exploited because you think that's uh something to post for likes and for appreciation? No, I think that I'm complicit. I don't think that it's simple as being played or not.

I mean, what I hope to capture in the book was the nuance and the ways that, you know, I also have chosen these things. Daisy's written in to say, Emily, I've been a model for over 15 years and reading Emily's book is like reading my own mind. Her book is so astutely observational. I can relate to so many of the experiences she writes about. It's a must read for any young woman trying to navigate today's society. That's from Daisy who's listening, which I thought you'd be appreciative of perhaps also because of the fellow model position. Yeah, I mean, it's really wonderful to hear. And it's been amazing to receive so many messages like that. And also from women outside of the industry. I got a message this morning from someone who works in Indiana, and farming, and she said that she's one of the only women in her industry. And that the book really resonated with her and her experience.

There's a message here saying, I'm very pleased to hear that Emily's changed her mind, but I do not think any girl or woman is empowered by exposing their bodies. It just reinforces the view that looks are women, is what women are good for. And that's not feminist. Final thought from you on that? Again, I don't think that it's empowering. That being said, I am here talking about my book and debating these things and starting a conversation, which feels like some kind of power. Emily, thank you very much for your time today. Emily Ratajkowski, the other book's called My Body. Another message here saying, under the patriarchy, our sexuality will be used against us. And another one, unfortunately, your guest cannot see that models perpetuate the need for women and a certain image to be dictated by others.

Liberation is reaching a point where you don't dress for others, but for yourself. Keep your messages coming in off the back of that conversation. Looks matter even more so and in a different way often for women. How do you navigate that? 84844, that's the model there. Emily Ratajkowski, she's got nearly 30 million followers on Instagram and doesn't think those images are empowering, but there is a level of choice and control to it. But is the message changing overall? Well, let's come to something else which is in the news this morning. It's probably the most familiar chemist on our high street, Boots. Well, it's in the firing line now from campaigners,

including 26 Labour MPs who say it should reduce the price it charges for the morning after pill. They've got Boots in their sights because for Black Friday just gone, Boots halved the price it charges for the morning after pill. They've got boots in their sights because for Black Friday just gone, boots halved the price of the morning after pill and now campaigners want the reduced price to become permanent. Rose Stokes, a freelance journalist, is one of those campaigners, as is Diana Johnson, the Labour MP, who's just taken a break, I believe, from the Home Affairs Select Committee to join us. I should also say we invited boots onto the programme so the company could explain what's happening, but they said our request was too short notice. I'm here every day, Boots. I hope we can get you on at some point. Rose, good morning. Morning. Why this? Why now?

Well, actually, so I was just, it was quite an accident. I came across the advert while researching another article, saw that they were offering the morning after pill for 50% discount and shared it to my social media. Obviously, it's quite a political conversation, like the cost of the morning after pill comes up and up in the news. I shared it and the response, it sort of went viral and the response indicated to me that this was a big issue that a lot of people wanted to talk about um and so we thought that now given that boots have obviously demonstrated that they can afford to sell the morning after at half the price um we're taking the opportunity to ask them not to put the price back up again when um when the uh discount ends tomorrow. And I'm working with the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, BPAS,

who are also on the campaign and they've helped organise it. I'll come back to the campaign overall in just a moment because this isn't the first time there has been campaigns around different providers also to slash the price, which BPAS, as you mentioned, have also been involved in before. But we did get a statement from Boots which said the Black Friday promotion ran on our online doctor hub. It was 50% off all men's and women's

private healthcare services. We sometimes offer short term promotions to raise awareness of certain services but it's not usually possible to sustain significant discounts in the long term. Our pricing model takes into account expert clinical advice, consultations and prices are in line

with other high street pharmacies. What do you make of that, Rose? I guess the point is that online there are services that are selling the morning after pill for £3 or £4, I think. There's a website called Chemist's View that do it for £4.

I just think that a pharmacy of that scale, if there are other companies that are managing to sell it for that cheap, why can't Boots? We should say it's gone from £15.99 to £8 during this. Let's bring in Diana at this point. Diana, good morning. Good morning. You've sent a letter this weekend accusing Boots of being sexist. Is that right? Yes, we did. Along with a number of Labour women MPs. You're absolutely right that this has been an issue before. I think in 2017, Sharon Hodgson,

who was the Shadow Public Health Minister, did a lot of work on this. But we are really concerned, for all the reasons that have just been outlined, about the cost of the emergency contraception from Boots. And as you say boots is you know on almost every high street it's a well-recognized brand you know we've got a lot of time for boots but we just want them to do the right thing and I think as well as Labour MPs we

we're also very conscious that you know over the past 11 years women's access to contraception has sadly reduced down, being able to access it either at a GP or a sexual health clinic because of the fragmentation of the NHS and cuts to public health funding. So we want to make sure that we can access funding when they need it. Sorry, but just to be factual for a moment, just to be factual, Diana, that you can get the morning after pill for free

from a GP or a sexual health clinic, can't you? Yes, but the problem is about access. And I chair a group in Parliament called the All Party Group on Sexual and Reproductive Health. And we produced a report in September 2020 looking at access to contraception. And we are really concerned in that report because of the reduction in access over the past few years and obviously with covid that's obviously had an impact so what we say is that we would like it to be free contraception free including emergency contraception because we know public health england has produced a figure saying for every one pound that the state spends on contraception, you save £9 in public spending, public service spending.

So this is something that we think is really important. But Boots could do the right thing on this and keep this price reduction at the figure that they've reduced it down through Black Friday and over the weekend. It's my understanding, you tell me though, Diana or Rose, the previous part of this campaign, as mentioned in 2017, did see a cut in price at some other providers. It just hasn't been at the largest or most recognisable chemist.

I think that's right, yes. And I think this is an ongoing issue and we don't understand why women are having to pay this extra amount on medicines that they need, really. And that's the issue with boots. We want them to do the right thing. Let me bring in Rose. Yeah, I was going to say, there was a slight reduction from boots.

Essentially, all of the other high street pharmacies reduced their price. And then a group of Labour MPs contacted boots. And boots initially said at the time that they didn't want to incentivise improper use of the morning after pill as their excuse for not lowering it eventually. They caved in to pressure. They did reduce it a little bit but it's still to my mind an inaccessible cost for a lot of people at £16. Yes there was that row about it and thank you for bringing that back into people's minds in case they're thinking have i heard this before what what happened last time and what's happening now of course rose there will be people thinking as they're listening i'm sure

we'll get some messages to this effect you don't have to go to boot you can go elsewhere there are other ways of doing it yes access may be difficult but there are other ways of accessing it for completely for free people have choice that is the market what do you say to that rose i think that it's a fairly narrow view to assume that a lot of people have the time i mean obviously it's very difficult to get a gp appointment as we know um sexual health clinics have been closed across the country um in the past few years that's assuming that you have the time to go and wait in a sexual health clinic like at the ultimately 85 percent of people according to boots's website live within 10 minutes of the boots maybe they've got child care responsibilities maybe they have to go to a work at like a zero hours contract where they

can't just take a day off to go and like queue for the morning after pill ultimately uh boots is the place where a lot of people are going to go and um i just think that we should be trying to break down barriers to access for people that need it rather than making it difficult for them. Diana, heard anything in response from your letter? I mentioned the response we've had from Boots as a programme. No, I haven't heard a dicky bird and I'm really surprised because I think this has caught the imagination of a lot of people

that there is an issue here and you'd think Boots would want to come out and explain what they're going to do about it well we will see we'll see if there's an update on that uh thank you very much diana there diana johnson at labour mp and also rose stokes they're a freelance journalist and i'm sure we'll talk again to both of you about various things but rose just a final thought i suppose from one message i did see that came in which was just there can be and has been and continues to be a general frustration about how expensive certain things that only women need are in pharmacies whether that's this what you're talking about or or also of course things relating to thrush medication and all of that side of things what was the question in terms of is that

something you've tapped into or heard about since you started this campaign? This is a widespread issue that affects a lot of things that are only relevant to women. I think that it's particularly egregious in this situation because, as we know, pregnancy is essentially, it can be for a lot of people, a very scary experience. If you're not planning to get pregnant, if you don't want to get get pregnant it's a cost and it's a emotional burden that is mostly shouldered by women so to see a company profiteering off of what is essentially can be a very stressful experience for women I think is particularly upsetting. Most thanks thank you very much indeed and as I say with that message from Boots they were talking with regards to it's a sensitive pricing decision, but

we'll welcome Boots to come onto the programme any time that they are available. I'll make myself available to have that conversation. A message here says I remember when the morning after pill was £30. When I was 18 in my first job, it felt prohibitive, presumably to act as a disincentive and to encourage people to use

preventative contraception. That's how it was pitched to me at the time. I'll be with a memory there. More messages coming in off the back of that conversation I had with Emily Ratajkowski talking about how we navigate a world still so dominated with how we look and how women do that in particular. Catherine says it would be nice to hear women now being supportive of women navigating these complexities and paradoxes, not expect them to have all the answers and be perfectly consistent.

Well, in fact, Katie, right at the beginning of that interview, I did say I expect you to have all the answers. And it's, of course, not always one way or the other. So perhaps you missed that part of it. But I take the bigger point here about it being complex, which a lot of you are saying. But a lot of you also incredibly clear cut on this about where you stand. A couple of messages here. One here talking about Emily's position position saying she's very confused she needs to understand that making money from her pictures is so different to wearing a low-cut top she's perpetuating and reinforcing

the awful situation i left a birthday party emma after twice requesting that the blurred lines video was stopped young women being sexually exploited and calling it empowerment is everywhere Ambitance is also a word coming through loud and clear with regards to some of your views on this, but also some of your experiences too. Please keep the messages coming in. But yesterday I said this right at the start. It was big news for the eastern Caribbean island of Barbados. Overnight, it cut ties with the British crown to become the world's newest republic, and the country appointed its first president, Dame Sandra Mason. Here she is, having just been sworn in. For decades, we have had discourse and debate about the transition of Barbados to a republic.

Today, debate and discourse have become action. Today we set our compass to a new direction, girded by the successes of the last 55 years, buoyed by the confidence garnered from our triumphs and accomplishments, committed to country and to each other, and motivated to press confidently and boldly forward for the sake of our nation and for present and future generations. Dame Sandra Mason, a historic moment in the presence of Prince Charles. Well, Celestina Olulode is a reporter for the BBC World Service. I spoke to her earlier this morning from Barbados.

I should say the amazing sound you'll hear throughout this piece is the Caribbean Ocean. I started by asking what the atmosphere is like in the world's newest republic. Well, at the ceremony that happened in the early hours of this morning, there was just this big mood of pride because people here realised that this is a moment of history. And you could see it with people waving their flags in the air. When the Barbadian National Anthem was played out, I saw a man, you know, putting his hand over his chest because people really realised that this is a historic moment for the country that, for some people, they've been waiting for it for over 40 years. How has the reception been like, particularly from women?

Because not everybody will agree with this move. That's right. It's really interesting that I've spoken to two women, a daughter and her mother so Lashawna she's a poet she's 28 years old and she said to me that the time is right for this to happen she says that look Barbados needs to leave its colonial past behind and move forward but her mum Sharon has said what is this going to change in my life we've just come with we're in the middle of a ond mae ei mam, Sharon, wedi dweud, beth fydd hyn yn newid yn fy fywyd? Rydym yn y cyfnod o gyfweliad. Mae pobl yma yn anodd,

oherwydd mae llawer o swyddi ar yr isle yn ymddiriedol ar ddiddordeb. Ac mae hi'n cwestiwnio pam mae hyn yn digwydd nawr. Felly mae gan ddynion gwahanol sylw ar hyn. Nid yw'n ddifrifol, ie neu na. So women do have differing views on this. It's not a clear cut yes or no. People don't just have a clear cut yes or no answer. Is there an answer about why now? So I actually put that to the Prime Minister, Mia Motley.

I met her last week and she said to me, look, we are a country that has had 396 years of a British monarchical system. The time is now, she told me. And I pushed her a bit more on this because, as I said to you, for about 40 years, people have been debating about this. And what Prime Minister Motley said is that change in small island states happens more sort of gradually instead of in a revolutionary way. What's also striking, and you just mentioned there another female political leader, is that Barbados is now in the unusual position where the first president is a woman. Yeah, that's right.

Dame Sandra Mason, she is the new president of this country. And just a few days ago, just yesterday, in fact, she was the governor general of Barbados. That was the Queen's representative of Barbados. And she her CV is very impressive. She's a woman of so many firsts. She's a politician, a lawyer, a diplomat. And she became the governor general of Barbados in 2018. She was the eighth governor general of this country. And something that she said at the ceremony after she was sworn in is that Barbadians need to work together to create a brighter future and added that becoming a republic was a call to greatness.

What is the perception of her as a leader and as a woman in charge and as a woman in charge at this historic moment for the country? Well, just if you take a look at her CV, many people here will say that she's more than capable. She started off as a magistrate in 1978 Mae llawer o bobl yma yn dweud ei fod yn fwy na'i allu. Dechreuodd hi fel Magistra yn 1978 ac mae hi wedi cymryd y Caracom, felly dyna'r diogeluoedd gyda'r traed ar yr isle ac atgyfarchiadau. Yn 1994, roedd hi'n Magistra Cyhoeddus ar gyfer Barbados ac roedd hi'n y ddechrau Barbadian i gael as a member of the Commonwealth Secretariat.

So someone there who many Barbadians believe is very capable. Celestina Olilode speaking to me from the beautiful island of Barbados. And how wonderful does that ocean sound? And what an interesting moment to be there and to be reporting from there. Your message is still coming in with regards to navigating looks, body, feminism, politics. This is off the back of talking earlier to Emily Ratajkowski, who says, I welcome Emily exploring this issue. If you're just joining us, she was the model who rose to fame in that Blurred Lines music video that hit the headlines for the women being basically naked and the men having clothes on, but also the lyrics about consent. I welcome Emily exploring this issue,

judging her for what she chooses to wear and posts is simply judging women. We need to spend our energy connecting with other women, sharing experiences and fighting the patriarchy, not judging women. Another one from Rona here, that one had no name. Good morning, Rona, to you. Says, I've recently undergone treatment for breast cancer. And as part of this, I lost my hair. It's now growing back, but it's short, grey and curly,

rather than long, light brown with blonde highlights. I noticed that while I still feel the same inside, I'm no longer looked at by men at all. It struck me that it's very sad that so much of a woman's perceived value comes from their appearance. I don't think that a man in this position would notice such a stark change in how they are received. Rowan, I hope you're doing well with your health and thank you for your new perception, as difficult as it's probably got to get to that position and have that view. Well, let's talk now about something that I know many

of you feel very passionate about and passionately about, protest or making a stand or doing something to make some noise about something you believe strongly in. What lengths have you gone to for something you believe in? Well, the 89-year-old barrister Margaret Owen recently completed a six-day hunger strike to raise awareness of the case of the British Iranian detainee Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe. Nazanin's been detained and imprisoned in Iran for five years on spying charges and lost an appeal against a second jail sentence in October. She's currently under house arrest with her parents in Tehran. And Margaret's protest, of course, followed the 21-day hunger strike by Nazanin's husband, Richard Radcliffe, outside the Foreign Office.

You may remember that we spoke to Richard, who's been on this programme quite a lot, certainly since I joined in January. We spoke to Richard, I think he was on day 11 of that particular hunger strike. But Margaret then began her own and it lasted six days and it ended last week. Margaret Owen, good morning. How are you feeling, first of all? I'm feeling very well indeed. And it really wasn't hard to do six days. You know, when you're old, you don't eat that much anyway. So all these people worrying about me, I was fine. And why I did it, I was so frightened for Richard, Nazanin and Gabriella that when he finished his 21-day hunger strike, then maybe the attention on this awful case of injustice would sort of disappear.

So I thought this is one way of actually maybe exploiting my old age and doing that to try and be sure that we keep our protests with the government, that they have to repay that debt and stop torturing and destroying this family so that Nazneen and the other hostages come home. Yes, you're talking there about the long-standing debt of £400 million that Britain owes Iran for a tank deal that was never fulfilled. I should say we have a statement from the Foreign Office in response to you coming onto the programme today in this discussion. Iran's decision to proceed with these

baseless charges against Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe is an appalling continuation of the cruel ordeal she's going through. Iran should urgently release all those British nationals unfairly detained in Iran. We should say it's not just Nazanin. We are doing all we can to help all unfairly detained British nationals in Iran to get home to their families. We will continue to press Iran on this issue

at every opportunity. I should say as well, Margaret, you mentioned Gabriella there. For those who do not know, that is Richard and Nazanin's daughter, of course, of whom she's now been separated from for some years. Richard, when he came onto the programme with regards to the hunger strike, said to us and said to me that he was concerned that not all was being done to have these conversations. Do you have any idea if either his or your hunger strike has shifted the dial or done anything?

Well, this is what is so awful, because as you probably know, just a few days ago, Richard Nazanin's MP, Tulip Siddiq, had a meeting with the new ambassador from Iran. And all they're saying is pay back that debt. This is all about the debt. So in fact, I mean, it's just not going anywhere. They're not doing all they can. If they were doing all they can, they would actually pay back that debt, which is actually endorsed in 2009 by the International Arbitration Court at the Hague. So it's got nothing to do with the sanctions anymore because that debt was incurred in 1979 before the sanctions came in. And it's not a ransom. It's about that Iran will not release them unless that debt is paid.

So they're not, I mean, this is what this seems to be, as Richard would call it, a big accountability gap with the government. And also, you know, our Prime Minister Boris has much to answer for, because it was he when he was Foreign Secretary who both said erroneously that she was there training journalists when she was there on a family to take her little girl to see with her parents. And then he later also said when he was foreign secretary that he would be paying back the debt. And it's that response that he made when he was foreign secretary that makes the Iranian government stick to its demand that the money is repaid.

Well, listen, if I may, if I may just come in at this point, of course, the prime minister that had been the hope from Richard Radcliffe because of that connection from when he'd been foreign secretary and also that error that he made for which he apologised, that he would, of course, stay with this case and progress would be made. And he had been hopeful, you know, I remember even two Christmases ago that Nazanin would be home. This is something that you've now, I suppose, involved yourself in.

You'll join the group of people who are campaigning. And I know you, of course, had a long career as a barrister specialising in women's human rights and you're the president of Widows for Peace through Democracy. You say it was easy to do a hunger strike for six days. I know a bit of water perhaps was imbibed during that time. But equally, I suppose you show no sign of dialling down the fight. Oh, no. And I hope that by now that, you know, we will go on and on, that women all over the country will actually carry on this baton. And I'm really excited. For example, Richard's just told me that on Friday, the 10th Friday, there's going to be a big rally outside number 10 Downing Street. And also, I think on the evening of the 20th of December outside Downing Street, we're going to have a Christmas carol service.

So I just hope that all over the country, women will write to their MPs. They will keep up this fight that there may be more mini hunger strikes, even if somebody does it just for a day or two days and then apparently according to richard nazari nazanin is listening and all the time and finding out you know where she's sitting in her parents home in tehran she says he says she's enormously strengthened amazed that people that she's never known, women all over the country and men as well, are really supporting her. Margaret, thank you. Thank you for talking to us today. And we'll, of course, keep in touch with

Richard Ratcliffe, which we have been doing throughout. And thank you for your time as well. More messages coming into that effect of talking about how powerful such actions can be but also I should say still a lot of messages coming in about women's role, women's voice, women's power off the back of that conversation with Emily Ratajkowski. It certainly seems to have stirred something in you and Chakra says I'm fed up with women who've been awarded money and power by men for their looks becoming leaders and spokeswomen these tv presenters cooks models actresses business women are given a platform based on pretty privilege end it please another one i think it's very empowering though to use whatever agency you have to lead the life you want feminism is about opening opportunities to women

and removing legal barriers to equality. Emily says exactly this. Good for her. Lots of exclamation points. An anonymous message here saying, Blurred lines, back to that music video, came out when I was at university. The young men in my peer group would all gather round and leer and play at it, play, excuse me, at social gatherings.

When I expressed discomfort and asked for them to turn it off, I was told to lighten up. That video and others like it encouraged the ideas that women are sexual objects. When I came top of the year in my course, some of my male peers asked if I'd been wearing a low-cut shirt. Keep those messages coming in. There's definitely a divide on this and where you stand with regards to women's rights, feminism and where we're at right now with it. And it's very, very useful and interesting to hear your take. So do keep those messages coming in.

84844, that's the number you need. Well, talking of women, their bodies and power, American-born French performer Josephine Baker is going to be the first black woman to be immortalised in the Pantheon Mausoleum in Paris today. Josephine broke boundaries in the 30s and 20s with her performances mocking colonialism and was a resistance fighter.

That's what she went on to do for France during World War II. She's going to be just the sixth woman to join around 80 national male figures already interred, but her body will remain buried in Monaco. But she's going to be honoured with a memorial and plaque today. Well, research fellow at Trinity College, Cambridge, Adjoa Osei, who studies Afro-Latin women modernists, including Josephine Baker, joins me now.

Adjoa, good morning. Good morning. I wanted to play us all and remind us all a snippet of Josephine Baker singing one of her famous songs, Paris, Paris, Jo. It would be gorgeous, wouldn't it? Welcome to the programme. Let's start with a bit of background on Josephine Baker for our listeners who may not know a lot about her. Who was she and where did she grow up? So Josephine Baker was from St. Louis in the States. She had some success there. But her experience was, of course, blighted by the Jim Crow regime, which was essentially a regime that taught black people to think of themselves as inferior to whites.

So she came to realise that she'd reached her full potential that she could in the States. And it was in 1925 that she set sail for Paris. And this was the time when the city was in the midst of a cultural movement called Negrophilia. So all things black were considered fashionable and chic and sensual and creative. So Josephine Baker was able to capitalize on this particular cultural movement.

And so she was loved here, you know, in kind of in contrast to in the States, where she was very much a victim of prejudice. In Paris, she became this kind of ebony goddess. She performed on stage in 1925 in a show called La Cheveux Negre. And she famously performed in wearing nothing but a pink flamingo feather. So she was quite the charmer, a really exciting figure and quite opportunistic. I mean, earlier we were talking in the show about this kind of tightrope that women have to walk when it comes to performing your sexuality and femininity. And with Josephine Baker, she was quite opportunistic.

So she seized the opportunity to be viewed as this sort of exotic creature from far away. But I think she did so in a way that was kind of playful and she was certainly empowered in her performances. It's a fascinating line and tightrope that runs right through and how it's changed. We could we could spend a lot more time on. But I wanted to just keep with her life because what she packed in was fascinating.

And I mentioned that her role during World War Two. Oh, wow. Gosh, yes. So she she was more than just this dancing nude figure on stage. She actually worked as a spy for the French resistance. So she would charm Nazi generals and she would charm diplomats into sharing secret information about where German soldiers were. And she would scribble it down on sheet music using invisible ink. And then she would pin it to her knickers and smuggle it across borders. So we think, yes, she was, she's quite remarkable. So, you know, we had Remembrance Day this month.

And so we do think about, you know, those who have contributed to the war effort. We perhaps don't think about black women and their contribution to the war effort. So Josephine Baker, to be honoured in this way, I think is wonderful. Yes, and that's why we're talking today, of course. But just to have a listen, if we can,

there's a clip we've got from an interview with Roger Snowden, which was broadcast on Radio 4 in 1969, in which Josephine Baker talks about the allies who fought together in the Second World War. I was in the resistance. I was in the Free French Army at the very beginning. And I was in England many times, of course, because we were all together, as we still are.

They would certainly never be able to separate us, will they? I don't care what people say or what happens. There is something among people who have suffered together and united us forever, I think. It's quite extraordinary to hear that, isn't it? I think what's important is to remember that Josephine Baker is a feminist icon. She didn't just help black women, she helped women across the board, white women as well, you know, to feel empowered, to feel that they could have a voice um so i think a little known fact

that people perhaps aren't aware of is that when martin luther king was actually killed his wife coretta king actually approached josephine baker and asked if she would like to lead the civil rights movement so she was quite special indeed. What did she say to that? Because she obviously had a strength of views and a strength of position and wanted to use her voice. Well, she actually turned the role down. I think she cited that she was concerned for the safety of her children. She had many adopted children, her rainbow tribe, as she liked to call them. So she didn't in fact fulfill that role nevertheless she was indeed a civil rights activist in her very own way she refused to perform in the states to segregated crowds so she was certainly kind of groundbreaking we'll say

and and you know there's some criticism today over the French government's decision to do this because so many years after her death some critics say it's been used for political gain in the face of debate over racial discrimination in the country or, you know, bolster France's model of integration. What do you make of that narrative? Sure. I mean, there are loads of debates at the moment in the press, on social media, saying that she, you know, is playing the role of the good migrant, so to speak, as part of Republican assimilationism. So she allows France to present itself as a successful multiracial society. But in spite of all these debates, many of which are valid, it mustn't take

away from the fact that Josephine Baker is this huge star. She was a feminist icon, the first black performer to be honoured in this way. And I think we mustn't obscure that achievement in spite of the fact that there are some kind of tensions there. Yes. Well, I was also just going to say, I'm minded of the fact that I interviewed Kush Jumbo, the actor, recently, and she wrote and starred in her own one woman play based on josephine and you know despite the fact that that she did pass away uh more than 40 years ago you know people people find a lot in her story still don't they oh absolutely and even in the world of performance i'm thinking of the likes of grace jones tina turner beyonce even lady gaga they all were very much you see hints of Josephine Baker in in their kind of

stage presence even in terms of Josephine Baker's stage presence in the latter part of her career she kind of reminds me of almost Shirley Bassey so she really did inspire so many performers across borders. Well people can look her up they can watch they can hear they can see what what is out there what's archived lovely to be able to talk to you today on a historic day as you say which of course there's debate, there always is, when is there not but not to be obscured about the

momentousness of the commemoration because Josephine Baker today is going to be the first black woman to be immortalised in the Pantheon Mausoleum in Paris and you were just listening there to the research fellow at Trinity College, Cambridge, Ejoa Osei, whose study area does include Josephine Baker

and also Afro-Latin women modernists. Thank you so much for so many messages today, I have to say, with regards to our bodies and women. And as it was just described by Ejoa there, the tightrope that we walk and many of us feel we walk and i have to say huge divides on this with regards to where you come out on it um one

message here just with regards to some of the criticism that emily has faced because of writing this book and putting it out there while still posting bikini shots she doesn't run a bikini line on instagram or certainly posting those sorts of images a message here that says aren't we just buying into the patriarchy if we curtail the bikini shots? Why shouldn't Emily wear a bikini and be sexual? She's right. None of our choices are in isolation. It's complicated. No name on that message. But I think in that you sort of summarise where some people feel this huge ambiguity

and a lot of debate to be had. Well, Woman's Hour is where we have it. That's all for today's Women's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, I'm Professor Stephen Pinker. We all want to reason more clearly and to make better choices about everything from life and love to medicine and money. But even the best of us get things wrong. I would have twice as many billions if I just made a different decision. I mean, of course, one can always learn from other people's mistakes. It's ideal to do that.

Each episode is a conversation with an expert on rationality and someone who deals with our corresponding irrationality in real life. Rarely do we sort of walk around living out probabilities. Oh my God, wait, 90% prevalence. It's hard to sort of hold onto that in real life. I hope you'll join us as we try to make sense of making sense, and hopefully to make better decisions. That's Think with Pinker from BBC Radio 4. Subscribe now on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.