Woman's Hour - Emily Watson, Earthquake, The Lesbian Project, Big Mama Thornton, Cost of childcare

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Emily Watson is starring in a new film ‘God’s Creatures,’ set in a remote Irish fishing village. She plays a mother torn between protecting her son and her own sense of right and wrong. When she provides an alibi for him, the lie rips apart their family and local community. Emily joins Woman’s Hour to talk about her character, women in the oyster farming industry and her career up to now. Krupa Padhy talks to academic Kathleen Stock about The Lesbian Project, a new organisation she is launching today alongside journalist Julie Bindel and the tennis star Martina Navratilova to combat “lesbian erasure” in the UK today. They say they’ve been subsumed into what they describe as “the expanding LGBTQ+ rainbow” which means they’ve lost their autonomous identity with distinct interests and needs. Willie Mae Thornton, better known as Big Mama Thornton, wrote the song ‘Ball and Chain’ which won Elvis Presley great acclaim. She is one of the architects of rock n roll that has been wiped from the performance canon. The poet, writer and performer Pamela Sneed joins Krupa to discuss the life and legacy of Big Mama Thornton.One month after a powerful earthquake devastated parts of Turkey and Syria, officials put the number of deaths in Turkey alone at almost 50 thousand, and in Syria, more than 6,000 people are known to have lost their lives. Hundreds of thousands of people still need adequate shelter and sanitation but it’s women and girls in Turkey who are disproportionately feeling the aftershocks, and stories of abuse are beginning to emerge. Krupa talks to Elif Shafak, a novelist and political scientist about the situation.The cost of childcare in England, Scotland and Wales has risen over the last year by 5.6%. On top of that, less than one in five local authorities in England have enough childcare provision for disabled children. Megan Jarvie, Head of Coram Family and Childcare talks to Krupa about Coram's Family and Childcare report out today, which is calling on the government to review and reform their childcare spending. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Studio Manager: Michael Millham

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupal Bharti and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, thank you for joining us this morning. How far would you go to stand by your child if you knew that they were in the wrong? In a moment, I'll be talking to the actor Emily Watson about her new film. It's called God's Creatures. And in the film, Emily plays a mother who lies to protect her son she then battles with her guilt we want to know whether you've ever lied to protect your child and the impact that's had on you and I should say you don't need to share your name if you do wish to get in touch also we're going to

tell you about the extraordinary life of Big Mama Thornton, a name you might not be familiar with. But to those who do know her, she's very much the queen of rock and roll, whose songs have been sung by the likes of Elvis. The poet Pamela Sneed has been following her journey and she joins us. We're also a month on since the earthquake in Turkey and northern Syria. We know that nearly 56,000 people have lost their lives. The writer and political scientist Elif Shafak is standing by to tell me about the women and girls who have been impacted. Thousands have become homeless overnight. Many are living in makeshift tents. Plus, the academic Kathleen Stock will join

me to talk about the Lesbian Project, an organisation she is launching alongside journalist Julie Bindle and the tennis star Martina Navratilova. They believe that lesbians in the UK have been subsumed into what they describe as the expanding LGBTQ plus rainbow. I am always keen to hear from you on any of our conversations. This is how you can get in touch. You can text the programme. That number is 84844. Over on social media, you'll find us on the handle at BBC Women's Hour. You can, of course, email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700100444. Terms and conditions can be found over on our website. But we do begin with Emily Watson.

She's starring in a new film. It's called God's Creature, set in a remote Irish fishing village. The film featured in this year's Glasgow Film Festival and will premiere in the UK at the end of this month. Emily plays Eileen, a mother whose son is accused of sexual assault. Emily joins me now, but first a clip from the film as Emily is invited into the local police station to answer questions about her son.

Brian says he was at home with you that night. Is that right? He was, yeah. He didn't go out or anything at any stage? No, no. And you'd say that again in court? I would, yeah. All right.

Look, I know well Brian's a hard-working young fella. Is that it? I'll give him a shout for you there now. One minute. It's a bit much, Mike, isn't it, to drag me out in the middle of the night just to ask a simple question? We have to be seen to be doing our job, Aileen.

Happy to say that Emily Watson joins me now. Emily, we don't want to give away too much about the movie. We don't want to give away spoilers, but you do play Eileen, a mother, like I say, who was torn between protecting her son and her own sense of right and wrong. That's a central theme in this film. What drew you to this film, though?

Well, when I first read the script within the first couple of pages, I was very, very curious who wrote this. It felt so authentic. It's set in a remote village where there's an oyster farm and it's a very, very precarious and dangerous existence. The men are out fishing and oyster farming and the women are packaging. And it was not like anything I'd done before. But at the centre of it, obviously, is this massive moral quandary. And, you know, you've highlighted there at the moment that

Aileen tells the lie to protect her son and she is overjoyed that he has returned to her because he's been away mysteriously in Australia for years and he's come back and he can do no wrong in her eyes but I think the wider sense of the film is it's not just her. You know, when she says in court, he was with me, end of story, victim totally ignored. But also the wider community, or an ostensibly religious community, closes ranks around a rapist. And, you know, with all their Catholic ceremony

still intact. I have had a chance to watch the film and the various relationship dynamics at play are really gripping. One of those is with your on-screen son, played by Paul Mescal, known for the TV series Normal People. And you've touched on it there, but

tell us more about that on-screen relationship. Well, it was a stroke of genius for the film to cast him, also to get him as he was becoming this incredible rising star that he was because you know we're all half in love with him he was so utterly charming and normal people and he is a very warm and um open screen presence um and he's you know and as a person he's absolutely lovely um but then there's this very, very dark core to him.

And, you know, it's not a situation. I think when a parent allows a child to feel that they are above everybody else, they are more important than their siblings, than their father, than their other parent or, you know, whatever the family structure, when they are given that sort of hot house sense of invulnerability, that's a very dangerous situation. And I think that then that is everything about that is supported by the way that the community is structured, that the men are more important than the women. They do the dangerous work. The women do all this kind of slog around it. And there is inherent, inherited intergenerational violence sort of baked into this community. So having Paul Meskell, who is clearly adorable, playing that role is, you know, it kind of sucks you in in a way that's quite surprising.

And the role of women within that community is another theme in many wells parallel to that relationship that you that you talk about there. And we're not told exactly when the film is set, the 80s, perhaps the 90s. But at the centre of it is this oyster fishing industry. Women are busy working in the factory. Give us a sense of their role in the industry, first of all. Well, they they are sort of the auxiliary work they do you know it's very hard cold work standing in the factory all day i learned to gut a salmon i learned to fillet a mackerel they're sort of you know it's a it's a it's a high speed industry where there's a big turnover you have to get the oysters in and then

you have to package them on ice and get them out and sold. You know, it's quite precarious and it's very subject to blight and, you know, it's not secure and it's not easy. But then the women go home and, you know, there's a scene in the film where there's a shot of Paul walking through the back door, taking off his fishy, dirty clothes, leaving them by the washing machine on the floor. And then a bit later, I walk in, pick them all up, put them in the washing machine, make everybody's dinner. You know, it's just a very, very, what's the word, traditional structure. And very multi-layered, the number of roles that women are playing within that community.

You talk about packaging oysters. You also learned to put your waders on and go into the sea. And what was that experience like? Well, it was very, very cold. And we were playing a very kind of the emotional denouement of the movie. I won't give anything away, but it's a scene set against the rising tide. And if you get water into your waders, you're pretty much done for. So which happened, so they had to get us out of the water, get us back on land.

It was kind of really fun because it was like being in a sports team. Everything had to go right and everybody had to do their bit right. And it wasn't really dangerous because we were very carefully protected. But had something gone out of control, it could have been. What really surprised me quite early on in the film was to learn that people in the community did not like to learn how to swim. That really surprised me. Yeah, it's a thing.

The men traditionally don't learn to swim so that they cannot be asked to go into the water to save somebody else's life. Which is incredible. Because then they might lose theirs which is madness really um and it's it you know it's one of those things about that there's just it's just peculiar and you know you see you see that sort of peculiarity i don't know it's it there's so many things that just don't add up morally in that situation like the fact that that you know the pub in the film is this,

when we first see it, it feels very joyous and full of dance and music and drinking and people having fun. And that's the sort of core place where the closing ranks against the girl happens. You really get under the skin of the community. We have had some comment in responding to what you are saying. Claire's got in touch to say, I would do anything to protect my children if the bond is healthy a mother's love is the strongest emotional attachment of any kind and that is certainly a theme that you explore at

great depth in your film in terms of the production of the film the directors were two women Cedar David and Anna Rose Homer what was it like working with them they're amazing they're really super smart two really cool young women from new york it was great having an outsider's view of that world um and they were like uh they were two like two stealth ninjas very very quiet but very very powerful very non-traditional in the sense of being a loud presence at the centre of a movie. They were, everybody came to them. They were very quiet and extremely perceptive. And they had the Irish crew eating out of the palm of their hand and dancing on the head of a pin.

I mean, it was beautiful to watch. And was that because they were two women working in harmony together? Quite possibly. They just, when you're in, when you're sort of at the centre of things like that, you can set the tone. And their tone was incredibly thoughtful and respectful and intelligent. And there was no room for any kind of nonsense in any way. I do want to better understand where your passion for acting comes from. We mentioned a few films that you've been in. There's also been The Book Thief, Breaking the Waves. How did

this all begin for you? I think I became a sort of storyteller by default because when I grew up, I didn't have a television and I read vociferously. I read and read and read. I was one of those kids who had, you know, a torch under the bed cover so I could finish a book because I was just desperate to know what happened. And it was it was my way of creating a world and escaping. So I just had that sense of story in me. And I didn't I thought for a while I thought I wanted to write. But then I just loved we did some plays at school and I just loved, I loved it. And I, you know, it wasn't being in film and TV wasn't at all something that I aspired to.

When I was growing up, theatre was, you know, was the sort of height of ambition in this country. And then kind of by some weird freak, you would end up doing what I did. That's really changed now. it's a very different landscape. You've gone on to play a variety of roles Jacqueline Dupre and Hilary and Jackie, Apple Tree Yard one which I really enjoyed I mean has a single role stood out for you and how have those roles changed over your career? Well I feel I'm very lucky that I feel like a surfer who's just riding the right side of the crest of the wave. Because as I've got older, instead of things getting kind of leaner and less work available, actually stories about women my age have become much more varied and interesting. You know, things like Appropriate Adult and Chernobyl I did you know it just and and nothing really you know stories like that are nothing really to do with

me being a wife or a mother or somebody's granny or which was kind of where I was expecting to head um but you know just really really interesting stuff and this role for instance it you know she obviously is she's a matriarch but it's a it's a it's a story that everybody's interested in it's it's on the cold face of you know where storytelling is at about sexual assault but it's told from the point of view mostly of the mother which is is a really interesting take on it because it it kind of quietly reveals how in a way we're all complicit in the fact that sexual assault is just we suck it up and I don't mean that in terms of victims I don't mean that at all but society at large

has for for better for worse we are we are where we are it's you know it happens all the time and not a lot does changes yeah Emily an absolute pleasure speaking to you we do it happens all the time and not a lot does changes. Emily, an absolute pleasure speaking to you. We do wish you all the best with your new film, Gods of Creatures, as it releases here in the UK at the end of the month. We've had this message in saying, my daughter was struggling with the pressures of secondary school. She was at absolute breaking point and was exhausted. I gave her the day off school and reported her ill. I had to pretend to my husband that she had gone to school as I knew he wouldn't approve

of my decision. The day off did have the desired effect though and she returned to school in a much better mental state. So that is an example of when one mother has decided to lie

for the sake of her children. Thank you so much for getting in touch and if you would like to keep sending in your messages on that subject we are at BBC Women's Hour over on social media.

We are one month on after the powerful earthquakes that devastated parts of Turkey and northern Syria. Officials put the number of deaths in Turkey alone at almost 50,000 and in Syria

we're looking at around 6,000 people who are known to have lost their lives. Hundreds of thousands of people still need adequate shelter and sanitation but it's women and girls in Turkey who are disproportionately feeling the aftershocks and stories of abuse are beginning to emerge. Elif Shafak is a novelist and political scientist

and she's written an article in this morning's Guardian about the current situation for women and girls. And she joins me now. Thank you for joining us, Elif. Your article was very thought provoking. Can you can you share with us some of the stories that you've heard from Turkey? Yeah, I appreciate. I think always in times of crisis, disaster and war and displacement in general. It's women and children, minorities, also the poor who suffer disproportionately. We need to bear in mind that we're talking about very traditional societies in which women have to take care of the extended families, you know. So they're constantly working right now. And I worry that their needs, their basic needs, including sanitary products, hygiene. For instance, there are more than 365,000 pregnant women in earthquake zones today, and around 40,000 of them are expected to deliver to give birth in the next weeks. So they have some very basic and urgent needs. And I worry that

all of that goes unnoticed, you know, because the tragedy is so big. Sometimes people think that talking about menstruation, sanitary products, etc. They think these are trivial concerns, but they're not. They matter. And I think we need to focus on the needs of women and children urgently. And specifically, I know you've been liaising with various organisations there on the ground to better understand the needs and challenges facing women and girls. Can you give us some specific examples of what they've been sharing with you? There's so many untold stories. Unfortunately, already in Turkey, domestic violence is quite high. You know,

we have a massive problem. And the fact that the government has withdrawn from the Istanbul Convention, which is a very important international treaty to protect women and minorities from violence. The fact that the government has withdrawn from this convention instead of implementing it has made everything worse. So already we have gender violence. Already we have femicides. Now, on top of that, again, every study shows and every women's organization on the ground tells us that in times of crisis, violence against women and minorities increases. So they don't have anywhere to go. They don't have shelters. They don't have anyone to help them. And I think it's a major issue. Another thing that concerns me is, of

course, there are no schools right now in earthquake zones. And again, studies tell us when children cannot go to school, it's usually girl children, girl students who are more likely to be pulled out of school if they cannot go to school for a long time. So there's a very disproportionate situation here that we need to take into consideration. I know that your article specifically talks about one case where a woman has had to go back to her abuser because she'd rather return to him than live with her children in a tent. Well, she thought, she assumed that her ex, you know, going back to her ex-husband's house, the father of her children would be safer than staying in a

tent outside. Also, let's remember that unfortunately, these earthquakes, they're plural, happened in the middle of winter, frigid conditions. So it's really, really very difficult for so many people out there. And when she returned, her ex-husband poured hot water, scalding water on her, burning her body and shouting that he should be grateful that he has not killed her. So she's in intensive care without anyone helping her. But there are many stories that we never get to hear. That's why I find it very important that we amplify all these untold stories of women, but also LGBTQ plus minorities, because these are difficult subjects in both Turkey and Syria, you know, where there's homophobia, transphobia. It is very difficult for minority members to survive in these environments.

And you touched on it in your first answer there, the kind of culture of Turkey, and you also write about it again in your article saying, growing up in Turkey, I've been told many times to be quiet and ashamed of the female body. Can you explain more broadly the cultural context in which this is all unfolding? You know, still to this day, when you look at the word kirli, which means dirty in Turkish language, the first meaning of dirty is what you would expect, you know, unclean, etc. Second or third meaning of kirli is a woman who is menstruating. So we teach young girls that you are dirty, you're unclean, that you should be ashamed of yourself during, you know, the moment

of the time of menstruation. But this is only one example. So I have so many experiences, you know, being scolded by old people in the market, if you ask out loudly for sanitary products. I've seen, like many women in Turkey, them being wrapped in old newspapers as if something to be ashamed of, something that needs to be hidden and so on. So within this culture, how are earthquake survivors, women and girls, going to access sanitary products? I find period poverty a very, very important issue. And it is something that we are going to talk about at greater length a little later in this program going going forward and with your expertise and

contacts and insights there on the ground how can relief efforts work better to to support the needs of women and children there at the moment? I really appreciate this question because there's this general understanding that because so much is happening in so many parts of the world, you know, people think, well, we cannot focus on any part of the world for too long. But I think we need to change this narrative. What we need to realize is whether it's in, you know, earthquake zones in Turkey or Syria or in Afghanistan or in Iran, as we're speaking, young girls are being poisoned with chemical gas attacks at school or in war-torn Ukraine,

when women have to deal with, you know, rape and sexual harassment on top of the trauma of displacement and disaster, right? So wherever we look, we see that women are carrying the burden disproportionately. So relief efforts need to be gender based. And the second reason why this is important is because when you invest in women, you know, when you support them psychologically, financially, every study shows us that women invest, put it back into their communities. Women put it back into their families. So the best way to rebuild societies is via gender-based efforts. Elif Shafak, thank you for taking the time to speak to us this morning. I know it is a subject very close to your heart. We do appreciate you joining us. That's Elif

Shafak, a novelist and political scientist. And if you'd like to read her piece, it's over in this morning's Guardian. We are going to talk now about a term that we use quite commonly the term gay and many of you may think I'm talking about men, women, bisexual people and the reason we're talking about this is because of a new group being launched today it's called the Lesbian Project and it feels that lesbians in the UK have been subsumed into what they describe as I quote the expanding LGBTQ plus rainbow. They feel that they've lost their autonomous identity as lesbians with distinct interests and needs. The founding members of the project are the journalist Julie Bindle and the

tennis player Martina Navratilova and the academic Kathleen Stock. Kathleen joins me now on the line to tell us more about the new venture. Welcome to Women's Hour. Thanks for having me. Your launch material talks specifically about what you call lesbian erasure. Can you expand a bit more on that? Yes. So obviously LGBTQ plus activism is riding high at the moment in the UK and that's great but as more and more identities and orientations are pulled under the umbrella I mean recently Stonewall's run a campaign about asexuality for instance there's non-binary there's trans there's polyamorous sometimes is mentioned in this context as well so So as the identities expand, we feel that lesbians have got a bit lost. When you look at, for instance, charity funding or the number of projects that charities are dedicating to lesbians specifically,

or number of academic research articles on lesbians, it's all diminishing quite radically as are social lesbian social spaces and so on so we think there's a bit of a crisis for lesbians and particularly younger lesbians who perhaps don't quite know where they fit in in this new landscape and also don't even really like the word lesbian let's face it that they associate it with something um a bit uncomfortable so we'd like to get back uh that word word and help lesbians be proud of who they are. We're going to unpick some of what you've just said as we continue our conversation. And we've had this email from Lucy who says, I think the erasure of lesbians from UK culture began in the 90s with the rise of lad magazines on one side and music culture, including the war

between Blur and Oasis. Les lesbian role models for the next generation have been actively erased and laura writes we need we need not to be separated by our sexual choice or orientation we love who we love it's not rocket science it doesn't have to be patriarchy will cease to exist we are loved kathleen why is it so important to you to be distinct? Isn't there a benefit to being in a larger inclusive unit to some extent? Well, sometimes there is. I just think that we should be able to do both depending on particular needs. I mean, if you look at the original pairing, as it were, within gay rights back in the 80s and 90s, it was lesbians and gay men. And that was great. And it was obviously what was needed at the time for solidarity, particularly in light of Section 28 and the AIDS crisis.

But lesbians are not gay men. And in fact, there's actually some big differences between them, because obviously biological sex differs between them, and they love different people. So their sexualities are different and social context is different for each of them. Lesbians can get pregnant, gay men can't. So there's a whole lot of stuff that gets kind of missed out if we just shove those two categories together and say you cannot separate for any possible purpose. So we're not trying to be confrontational about this. We love solidarity with other sexual minorities. We just think that sometimes for some conversations, lesbians need to be able to talk about themselves as different. Another message in for you.

Huge congratulations and solidarity to Kathleen and Julie on setting up the Lesbian Project. Much needed. Kathleen, we spoke to you back in November when you came on to talk about the backlash that you'd received about your gender identity views. You chose to resign from the University of Sussex after those protests. And central to that stance was your belief that a person's self-declared gender identity

does not outweigh their biological sex. I mean, to what extent has this project been driven or triggered by the reaction you had back then? Well, Julie Bindle, fabulous Julie Bindle, got in touch with me shortly after that. And obviously she's a massive inspiration to me as a feminist and as an out lesbian for decades. So I was delighted. And she said, you know, would you like to think about us starting something for lesbians? But it's not, I think there are many more issues to talk about for lesbians than just the issue of gender identity. It's true that I think that lesbians are by definition same sex attracted females. I just think that's the category that we're talking about. And there's plenty of them. So let's talk about them.

But there are other issues, too, like I just said, about lack of academic research or unfocused academic research or lack of funding that aren't really directly about the sort of culture wars around gender identity at all. Although I'm sure that we will get our fair share of criticism from that direction, but we don't mean to, we're not coming out as a sort of single issue focus group on that. But I know what happened to you back then was a real test on your resilience. So was this almost a kind of natural path to take expanding on that on that thought process? Yes, I guess so. I mean, it put me in the public eye, gave me an opportunity to do something positive. I have got such enormous richness in my life through coming out and being a lesbian. And I'm really proud to be one and happy about that. So it just saddens me a

bit that as far as I can see, and I saw this when I was teaching, a generation of younger same-sex attracted females are in a bit of identity crisis. They don't want to use the word lesbian. They'd rather use words like queer, which kind of put them in this bigger group. Well, I think one of the things we'd like to do is find out and I wouldn't want to I don't think there's much discussion of this because it's also um controversial but my impression is um partly it's an association with an older generation that perhaps they want to get away from um you know and uh we'd like to remind everybody that you know we're stronger together than apart but also there's pornography I, lesbian is a massive search term in pornography for heterosexual people. And if I was a younger

lesbian coming out and discovering my own orientation, I think I would be thoroughly disgusted by what I saw around me in porn. So I don't know, there's probably lots of complicated things going on. And we'd really like to find out what they are. And on that generational divide, I mean, to what extent are you accepting of the fact that some younger lesbians don't want to identify solely as a lesbian, they want to come under that larger umbrella, and that there might well be a quiet tension between generations here? There's definitely a tension between generations here,'s definitely a tension between generations here as it should be why would we want the younger generation to get on with the older one that's fine and i've we fully

accept of course that lots of lesbians will young lesbians in particular will probably come out today and say they don't stand for me and that's fine you know we don't even claim to stand for all lesbians we couldn't possibly they're a diverse group like every other um but we don't we we're interested in same-sex attracted females you know exclusively same-sex attracted females if that's you then you can call yourself what you like we're still we still think that you're part of the group in some sense that we and we think you have special interests and special needs that we would like to represent and stand up for. Even if you don't want us to, we've still got your back, basically. An aspect that you mentioned in your

first answer there was the need for lesbian-only spaces. First of all, what do you mean by that? Well, in the 80s and 90s, partly because of the rise of feminism generally and gay rights, there was this vibrant lesbian scene, social scene. You know, there were lesbian-only pubs, bars, clubs. There were loads of discos, nights, social groups, and it was really exciting. I mean, they weren't policing entry very rigidly, but in the main, you'd find lots and lots of lesbian women um women only as well obviously so um those things have gone now um there's only we did a look around Britain and

we could find only two permanent um sort of lesbian predominant venues in the UK left um all of the others have closed or gone mixed. And almost every single club night or bar night we could find would say it was for LGBTQ women, which obviously includes a wider group these days, including people that I would call male. So that's fine. Again, we're not trying to stop people do anything they want, but we're saying that there's a separate need for lesbian social spaces because that's where younger lesbians meet each other, can express themselves, can start to feel confident about themselves, can start connecting up with older generations and making friends and networking and feeling better about themselves. And therefore, what would your response be if a trans woman who identified as a lesbian wanted to enter one of your venues? Where would your organisation stand? Well, I mean, that's a hypothetical. We don't have any venues. We haven't organised any social nights. But I would, personally speaking, I would want to say to that person, you know,

God bless you, but this is not for you. And that's okay. There's plenty of spaces for you. We're lesbians. We're having a night of our own. Please just let us have it. Right. So you are you are staunch on your position there that you want that lesbian only space, which you feel is being reduced more broadly. You're also pushing for better data and better funding when it comes to this? Yeah, so it's a fascinating feature of the academic landscape at the moment when it comes to LGBTQ research that quite often lesbians are pushed in with some other category as research subjects and the data is not then extrapolated out for lesbians alone. So lesbians might be with gay men, or they might be with bisexual men, or they might be with bisexual women, or they might be with trans women, and so on and so on. So it means we just don't know a lot about

lesbian life, because obviously, even lesbians and bisexual women have differences. Quite a lot of bisexual women are in permanent relationships with men. Lesbians are not. Obviously, lesbians and gay men have very important differences in some ways and lesbians and trans women have differences. So all we're asking for is just, you know, a bit more fine grained information about what lesbian life in Britain is like. We've had this message in saying disappointing to hear trans lesbian women actively excluded from discussions today. She says that we should be using our platform to lift up trans women at every opportunity. And this email from Julie, he writes, thanks to Kathleen and Julie for putting lesbians back on the map. We do need this organisation. I know of several lesbian groups that have gone underground or folded due to pressures to include all identities.

We need our spaces back. What about that thought from Julie that some organisations have had to go underground? Well, it's very sad, isn't it? And it shouldn't have been like this. I mean, just because a bunch of lesbians want to meet up is no threat to any other group. And it's not stopping anyone else from doing what they want to do including having mixed groups so it's just really sad that we're on the back foot like this and to go underground is just in a in a world in which inclusion is mentioned all the time as the most important moral value of our time I find it really sad on behalf of lesbians and we'd like to push back a little against that. I know that your project is trying to liaise with other organisations when it comes to data and research. Have you had any response from the EHRC, the Equality and Human Rights Commission,

when it comes to your request for lesbian-only spaces? Well, no, but let's give them a chance because we've only launched today. So what we would like is the EHRC to pay some attention to, for instance, whether lesbians do have legally freedom of association under the Equality Act. And we would also like the Government Equality Office to pay a bit of attention to lesbians as well, because they do say their priorities are women and sexual orientation. So we fall under both. So, yeah, I think there's lots of work to be done. And we hope to have those conversations soon. Well, we've had a response from a spokesperson. And as you say, the researchers just come out and they write, it's our duty to enforce equality laws for lesbians,

as we do for everyone. We are committed to protecting and upholding the rights of all people in Britain, including lesbians and women. They add that they've taken legal action to protect LGBT workers from discrimination, supporting individual cases in court. They're calling for better access to health care for LGBT people, raising their concerns at minister level,

and they are enforcing gender pay gap reporting. So various initiatives there. They do go on to the data aspect, saying the new census question on sexual orientation in England and Wales will provide better data and support policymakers in government and elsewhere to identify and address additional specific issues for lesbians. What is your response to that?

Well, actually, it's interesting. That first response is kind of what I was saying, that they come back with, oh, we've done lots of things for LGBTQ plus. And yes, of course. But when you've got a general response like that, it's still an open question how that response affected those particular member groups and how the spoils were divided when it came to all the resources and the money and the data and so on. So that's exactly my point. The census, yes, has given us really interesting data about the numbers of lesbians. It seems that about 1.15% of females in England and Wales are identified as lesbian, and that's more information than we've ever had. But there's still significant problems with that data. 7.5% of respondents didn't answer the sexual orientation question for a start. There's large numbers of people saying they're bisexual. It's always unclear.

There's a pipeline between saying you're bisexual and saying you're lesbian and back again. So that might affect that. And then there's also other orientations that were offered in sort of pitted against gay and lesbian, like asexual. And I don't think asexual is an alternative to being a lesbian. You could be an asexual lesbian, but people were given the choice. So I think I would have redrafted that question myself, but it's still very interesting that we're getting better data, and I'm glad we are. And on the subject of data,

we are trying to get a statement from ONS, but they are hoping to see the research before they issue something formal. But I've just rephrased that. I believe we do now have a message from the ONS who have said, sorry, we recognise the importance of gathering data on sexual orientation

and for the first time include a voluntary question on sexual orientation for people aged 16 and over on the census in 2021. A separate question on sex was also asked. This followed a comprehensive programme of research, consultation, question development and user testing.

The decision to have gay and lesbian as a single category was informed by focus groups with gay men, gay women, straight lesbians and bisexuals. It was highlighted by gay women that for women there was a choice between gay or lesbian, with some women preferring to be referred to as lesbians and others preferring gay women that for women there was a choice between gay or lesbian with some women preferring

to be referred to as lesbians and others preferring gay women your response well yes but it's not really about the name i mean as we've said i don't really mind what as long as it's not a pejorative i don't mind what lesbians are called as long as we know who we're talking about and in that case um we did because they had female although there was some as you probably know some argy-bargy about whether it should be legally female or actually female and um so there's also some um confounding of the data because i think they went with legally female um and anyway we don't need to get into that but basically um yes absolutely every data seeker should be looking for sex and

sexual orientation and should not be treating lesbianism as one identity amongst asexuality, queerness and so on. It's basically lesbian, straight or bi. Kathleen Stock, thank you for joining us. That's Kathleen Stock from the Lesbian Project. Kathleen writes, lesbian erasure is imaginary. There are plenty of young lesbians out there doing their own thing. And Maria writes, so important to make lesbians visible again and the right for us to have our own identity and space.

That conversation, that debate, of course, continues. And if you'd like to get in touch, we're at BBC Women's Hour. Baz Luhrmann's Elvis biopic has been nominated for eight Oscars. The film celebrates the life of Elvis, the king of rock and roll. But what about the queen of rock and roll?

She wrote the song Ball and Chain, which won Elvis Presley far greater acclaim. And she only makes a brief appearance in the film, despite being one of the architects of rock and roll. The woman I'm talking about is Willie Mae Thornton, better known as Big Mama Thornton. Joining me now on the line from New York

is the poet, writer and performer Pamela Sneed, who spent a lot of her own life exploring the life of Big Mama Thornton. Welcome, Pamela. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. And thank you for getting a crack of dawn. Yes, I was going to say, before we talk about her life and legacy,

let's hear a little clip of Big Bummer Thornton singing Ball and Chain live in 1970. Great. I would like to say, ladies and gentlemen, it's been a great pleasure to me to have to be with Buddy Guy since 1965 in Europe. This is a song I wrote, made famous by me and Janis Joplin. I wrote this tune called Ballin' Chain. I hope you like it. Sitting by my window Oh, I was looking out at the rain

Sitting by my window yeah Lord Lord Lord I pray Such swagger in that voice an absolute pleasure to listen to Big Mama Thornton there with Buddy Guy's blues band singing Ball and Chain in 1970. Pamela, there is very

little known about her on the internet. I think there's one biography about her. Tell us more about her. Well, basically, she was born in Arrington, Alabama in 1926. Her father was a Baptist preacher and her mother was sort of the first lady of the church. And so she grew up, she had about, you know, I mean, it varies, but it said that she had about five or six brothers and sisters. Her brother, Harp Thornton, was a really famous musician. And basically she learned to play harmonica from the one that he threw away in the trash because girls weren't really allowed to play, you know, harmonica and stuff like that. And so her parents, well, I know her mother died young and then she was sort of on her own and she worked in a bar and she, you know, started singing. But then also there's another story that a blues singer, Diamond Tooth Mary, heard her singing on on the back of a garbage truck, dressed in boys clothes and told her to audition for the Hot Column Review, which was coming through town.

And and so she did audition and she won. And and that was sort of like her ticket out through town. And so she did audition and she won. And that was sort of like her ticket out of town. And she shared stages, you know, with people like Little Richard and, you know, yeah. So quite the journey there. She's come back into recognition through the film Elvis. Tell us how she features. Well, you know, I couldn't watch the whole film because I was very distressed by it well tell us first of all how she features and then explain why it worried

you so much so basically I mean from what I saw uh they had you know Big Mama Thornton and the first issue that I had was with representation because Big Mama Thornton was six feet tall and she was 300 pounds, you know, at the height of her career. And the person that they cast was short. So I thought that that was kind of like disrespectful to, you know, who she was. And and from what I saw, she really she was singing Hound Dog. And then in the next scene scene Elvis was singing it. And so there was no kind of like discourse. She didn't have any language. And I felt that that portrayal generally of black people in the film

that they really were just there to kind of like enable Elvis and didn't have any sort of interiority. So I liked Elvis actually better before I saw the film. And I was so upset. I, you know, I kind of turned it off. So you wanted her to have a more prominent role? Yes, a prominent role. And I wanted the respect of her largeness. Yes. You know, in casting, to be careful. I mean, they wouldn't cast somebody really short to play Elvis. So why would they do that for this, you know, black woman pioneer? Well, that's the thinking.

I mean, we don't have a formal response to that as to why the character was cast as she was. But in your opinion, why is it so important to have that true representation? Well, I think, you know, she got her name at the Apollo Theater. And she basically, I guess she was on the sort of like Chitlin circuit. And she went and she was an opening act. And then she was so powerful that basically she was like, she, she closed down the show every single night and they didn't even give her a microphone because she was so powerful and they called her big mama Thornton. And so, and that's where she got her name. And it really features kind of prominently in my show because in that place that you name yourself, you know, that's when you come into being.

So I feel that to sort of like disrespect how much her name meant to her and her size. So it wasn't just about her physical size, but it was also about the size of her, her voice, of her demeanour, of her passion. We have had a message in from someone who managed to see Big Mama Thornton. She says, count myself so lucky to have seen Big Mama Thornton live at the Hollywood Bowl in the 70s. It was amazing. And she was a force of nature. Pamela, I know that she has featured a great deal in your work, in your life. There's been a huge influence. Can you just explain that to us a bit more as to the power of her identity, her character and the influence that's had on you? Well, when I was a young lesbian, you know, I basically, you know, moved away from Boston, the suburbs.

And I came to New York City and I didn't know that I was actually, I wanted to be a writer, but I also was coming out. And so I sort of like, I was coming out as a lesbian and I needed to sort of be away from my family to do that, to be in a new place. And so in doing that, I think I was looking for role models, you know, and, you know, the black lesbian identity wasn't really prominent. There weren't a ton of people that were out. So you really had to search, you know, I remember, you know, going into bookstores, and there were two books, and like, you know, Cheryl Clark's Living as a Lesbian, and it was, you know, in brown paper, it was like wrapped in brown paper or something. So, you know,

our identity was pretty hidden. And I think it was through sort of like starting to meet other Black lesbians and poets, you know, a lot of people talked about the music scene and talked about the blues singers, because early on, you know, from Bessie Smith and Moms Maple, who influenced Big Mama Thornton, you know, tremendously,essie Smith and Moms Maple, who influenced Big Mama Thornton, you know, tremendously. I mean, they all were queer, you know, you know, bisexual, and they basically spoke openly of their lovers. And, and so in that, you know, Big Mama Thornton, the way that she presented herself in men's clothes, this huge demeanoranor uh you know you had to sort of interpret her queerness you know um there was a lot of innuendo um and so she became a role model for me trying

to find my identity to see this woman who was just huge and unapologetic. Yeah, it was completely, yeah, it helped me exist. And being this force, why do you think, in spite of that, she has been erased, many say, from musical history? Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that, you know, musical history centres around white men and that's the history that gets told, really. And so we don't talk about the origins of American music and also a lot of like British music, you know, so like the Beatles were very much influenced by, you know, Black rock people.

But I mean, so these women, you know, like Bessie Smith, you know, Billie Holiday, Moms Mabley, Big Mama Thornton, you know, queer, Black, poor, like, you know, basically people don't want to recognize that. And so, you know, they've been disappeared, you know. Again, if we're looking at like sort of like a white supremacist model, it's basically not to give credit to the originators, you know? And I mean, there was an opportunity because Elvis actually recorded Hound Dog and after Big Mama Thornton, it was actually written for her. And basically she recorded it and it went to number one. But then I understand that there was supposed to be a party where they wanted to put the two of them,

you know, on a program to celebrate their releases of Hound Dog and that Elvis refused and that he did not want to recognize her. Well, Pamela, thank you so much for giving us an introduction to Big Mama Thornton. It's been a fascinating conversation and a great opportunity for us to learn a bit more about her. Pamela Sneed, a poet and writer, thank you so much for joining us bright and early there from New York. The cost of childcare in England, Scotland and Wales has risen over the last year by 5.6%. On top of that, less than one in five local authorities in England have enough childcare provision for disabled children. That's according to a Coram Family and Childcare report out today,

which is calling on the government to review and reform their childcare spending. Megan Jarvie is head of Coram Family and Childcare. She joins me now. Thank you for your time, Megan. This report makes a pretty grim reading for anyone who is struggling to pay for childcare right now, but it's not going to come as a uptake rate. So, I'd recommend getting in touch with your family information service that's run through the council and they'll be able to give you advice. But I think bigger picture, what we need to think about is this is a system that's really complex for families, really complicated. It is hard to get everything that they're entitled to and it needs reform. We found there's not enough childcare places, the ones that are there are really, really expensive.

It's a system that isn't working for families at the moment or employers or the taxpayer. Can we get a sense of the numbers from you? Because when my kids were that age, and that wasn't very long ago, we used to call their nursery fees our second mortgage. I know that there's been a rise in the cost by 5.6%. I mean, how does that compare to previous years? So what we found is a part-time nursery place now costs almost £150 a week. So that's £7,000 a year. And that's just for one child. We know a

lot of families have more than one child that needs childcare and a lot of parents need more than part-time childcare as well. So that's kind of a starting point for your costs. For parents, it's just really difficult. A lot of parents find that they need that income, they need to go out to work. But also if they do go out to work, the income just goes on their child care costs and as all our bills are going up at the moment parents don't have the options that they want to have to be able to deal with increasing costs and raising their family incomes. And you talk about rising bills I mean to what extent is the rise in the cost of living to blame for this current child care situation because even in better times the cost of child care in this country has been pretty, pretty steep.

Yeah, there's a number of pressures on nurseries and other childcare providers at the moment that they're facing the rising cost of living as well as rises to the minimum wage as well. And many are finding that the funding that they get from government to offer early education entitlements doesn't cover the cost of providing high quality care. So they have to make that up from parent fees. I think what we're concerned about, one of the issues that we're raising with this research is that unless there's enough childcare places out there, unless they're affordable for parents, it's the disadvantaged children that risk missing out. We know that high quality early education is a really powerful tool for

setting children up to be ready to learn at school and beyond. And it makes a difference right up to GCSE results. And the biggest impacts are for the most disadvantaged children as well. So it helps to narrow that achievement gap that opens up before children start school. That's why we think early education and childcare is such a good investment, particularly ahead of next week's budget. The time is right now for really reviewing all the spend on childcare and reforming the whole system. You mentioned disadvantaged children there. What about those with special educational needs?

To my understanding, less than one in five local authorities in England say they have enough provision for childcare for them. Has that always been the case? It's always been low, but this year we've seen a drop for a second year in a row and it's really concerning. If children aren't able to find that place, that childcare place, their parents won't be able to go out to work and they'll miss out on early education and risk starting school behind the other children. And that's just not fair. It's not a level playing field and it needs urgent attention. Many politicians think childcare will be a key battleground in the next election. What do you want politicians to do?

There are some urgent fixes that are needed just to keep the system ticking over for families but what we really want to see is a commitment to reviewing the system as a whole to recognise that double potential around enabling parents to work and supporting children's outcomes and designing a whole system that is achieving both of those. At the moment we've got a number of different policies that pull in slightly different directions around those and so aren't quite achieving value for money, are quite complex for parents. We want to see that commitment to a well thought through system. This is a request that you've probably put forth time and time again. Do you think change will actually happen now it feels like it we're it's more likely than

it has been um for some time to come i think there's a number of bits of evidence that show just how fed up parents are with this situation and there's a letter signed by over 40 000 parents going to number 10 today there is so much pressure from a number of different fields. CBI have been talking about childcare, Resolution Foundation. There's so many different voices that are all saying what we need is this issue to be fixed. So it does feel like that pressure is building and we do need to see the change soon. Megan Jarvie, Head of the Coram Family and Childcare Organisation, thank you for your time. And just to say, if you want to hear more about this topic,

please do listen to our childcare special, which was broadcast on the 28th of October. You can find that over on BBC Sounds. Thank you to the many of you getting in touch, responding to the various conversations we've been having throughout the programme. Gillian writes, I love hearing Alif Shafak speak so wisely and intelligently and hearing her just now on Woman's Hour did not disappoint.

She is the calm voice of reason in areas of the world ridden with conflict, misogyny, war and natural disasters. Gillian also writes thank you to Alif on Woman's Hour for amplifying the voices of minorities and raising awareness of those in the Turkey earthquake. On the subject of lying and raising awareness of those in the turkey earthquake on

the subject of lying to protect your children the central theme of emma watson's new film this message coming has come in who writes i always told my sons i would never lie for them they need to take responsibility for their own actions and on the subject of affordable child care please along with affordable childcare, can we do much more to support mothers to take a full year of maternity leave and to support parents to spend as much time as possible with their early year aged kids?

This is the best start for children rather than having to pay masses for childcare. Thank you to all of you for your messages. On tomorrow's programme, we're going to talk about something that you might not be interested in right now because of the cold weather, but we are speaking to a woman who's been encouraging those in her local community to get in the water and try surfing. Do join us then. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm Brian Cox, and we are back for season 26 of The Infinite Monkey Cage.

And we begin, where do we begin, Robin? We start in a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. It's Australia. Oh, OK, Australia then. We start, it felt like a galaxy to me, but we were in Australia where we talked about, well, spiders. You were scared of spiders. I wasn't actually scared of spiders, but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say, I wasn't scared of spiders. Oh, we also did astronomy spiders, but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say I wasn't scared of spiders.

Oh, we also did astronomy, actually, in Australia, which is fantastic. And then we came back to the UK and we had guests like Ross Noble, Susan Calliman,

Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Fry, Sue Black, Randa Munro, and we found out,

amongst other things, how to commit the perfect murder, which still hasn't really worked for me because I'm still upset at him. Listen on BBC Sounds.

What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it? You've got that Robbie Ninson, Professor Cox. I'd leave that poor pussy alone in its box. That cat may be as dead as a rat. You can wage in the infinite monkey cage. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.