Woman's Hour - Emma Barnett presents Woman's Hour with Imelda Staunton, Mel C, Jeremy Hunt and Richard Ratcliffe

Episode Date: January 4, 2021

Emma Barnett presents her first edition of Woman's Hour with music from Mel C, Imelda Staunton on her new role in The Crown and the latest on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe from her husband Richard and the former Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt.Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Emma Barnett here and lovely to be here on Woman's Hour introducing to you the Woman's Hour podcast from the first Monday of 2021, January the 4th. Good morning to you and may I say as your new presenter of Woman's Hour it is an absolute pleasure to be with you. Thank you for having me.

And I'm greatly looking forward to getting to know you and doing this together, because I can't do it without you. We had a thought that because this also happens to be the 75th year of the programme, and because it is Woman's Hour, that we would approach one of the most influential and well-known women in the world and see if she would like to send us a message. It turns out she did. And she is someone who in this very strange, unsettling and quite frankly deeply upsetting time that millions have been tuning into to hear the words of. And she doesn't

send messages very often. Her Majesty the Queen sent this message to you and to all of us. As you celebrate your 75th year, it is with great pleasure that I send my best wishes to the listeners and all those associated with Woman's Hour. During this time, you have witnessed and played a significant part in the evolving role of women across society, both here and around the world. In this notable anniversary year, I wish you continued success in your important work as a friend, guide and advocate to women everywhere. Signed, Elizabeth R. on Windsor Castle Headed Notepaper. Thank you very much to Her Majesty for that message. And I should say, at this point, if you also wish to message the programme today, I would love to hear from you.

Text me on 84844 or on social media. We are at BBC Woman's Hour. We shall return to the Queen a little later in the programme in a slightly different way. But in that spirit of friendship of which she writes and is crucial to the role radio plays in our lives and in recognition of the challenging time that we do find ourselves living in together

we have something musical for you a gift to hopefully lift the spirits but also recognize where we've been because when I was thinking about what to say to you this morning during my first program with you in this role and on the first Monday of 2021 it's's this. This year has got to be better, at least a bit. Here's Mel C with a song you will recognise, recorded specially for Woman's Hour listeners today. Mel C there singing Here Comes the Sun, thank you to her, written of course by George Harrison, apparently while appreciating some warmer weather sitting in Eric Clapton's back garden in Surrey in 1969. We play that to you on the day of course that the rollout of the second vaccine begins in this country but also very mindful of potential further lockdown restrictions being decided

by our political leaders in the coming days. And to that, well, certainly the governance of our country. And to give you a window into the corridors of power, my first guest today, she used to work for this government as a special advisor. That was until she was unexpectedly fired on the spot by the Prime Minister's former most senior advisor, Dominic Cummings, who only fully left his post a few days ago at Christmas. His exit was a lot more dignified. Hers?

She was marched out of 10 Downing Street in full public view by an armed policeman ordered to escort her. Sonia Khan was working for the then-chancellor, Sajid Javid, and had worked for his predecessor, Philip Hammond. She took the Cabinet Office and Mr Cummings to an industrial tribunal for both unfair dismissal and sex discrimination, but at the end of last year decided to settle the case for a reported five-figure sum before the public hearing took place.

She has not spoken publicly about what happened to her right at the very top of this government until today. I spoke to Sonia Khan just before coming on air this morning, and I started by asking her how she felt to be fired by Mr Cummings. My first emotion was just, what can I do to stop this happening again? And it wasn't until, I'd say, maybe the very end of last year that I'd really processed it as we came to the end of the legal case and I think there is a sadness that hits you because you feel that you worked so hard

to get a seat at that table so I spent five years in five different government departments and I started as like a door knocker so someone who literally put leaflets through people's doors someone who knocked on people's doors and said can you tell me how you're going to vote I need to record it and dealt with um whatever else so I'd really worked from the ground up and every time I was in government I tried to focus on like how does this translate like the real person the normal person so I think the sadness is around the fact that while there are enough people from other backgrounds sort of like like me to be the voice for other people um and so I guess the reason I wanted to come on and speak to you was to try and encourage those other people to come forward especially like now lots of people feel like politics is involved in their lives somehow uh and I want people to

see that you can do roles like mine doesn It doesn't have to be in national government. It can be in local government. So, yeah, I think that's... But there was a sadness when you came to process it. Yeah, there was. And for me, it did come sort of like later on because I'm one of those people who just almost like has a checklist of things and it's like, right, one, two, three, I've got to get through this.

And when you go through a legal process, it's kind of of set for you so you never have to deal with it but yeah I think my first thought was I really hope that there was like enough people who you know come from comprehensive school backgrounds people who um don't come from like the nicest areas have um have normal jobs you know like minimum wage jobs have been made redundant but go through all the things that everyone else does uh and don't just have like a southern experience and so you can reflect those when like decisions are being made. What happened on the day you were summoned to meet Dominic Cummings which ended up being your last day? Yeah so I was called in for sort of a meeting that I wasn't expecting and then I think much of that has been sort of reported in the media, rightly or wrongly.

So I don't want to get sort of too into that, if that's OK. But I think the main thing to point out on my end is I was never given a reason about why sort of what happened happened. And that for me was the sort of trigger to take the action that I did which is the legal action that I'm referring to so nobody ever said it was because you did x y and z I know there were lots of reports in the media but none of that was ever put to me and I remember at that time feeling quite strongly that um if I'm not given a reason and if there's a chance that this could happen again, it sets a really bad sort of standard and a precedent, especially for a lot of the advisors

who were coming into that government who were really young at the time, like early 20s. So I felt like I had a real responsibility to them. Let's get to that in just a moment. And I recognise you will only take me where you want to take me about what happened but you do have to for our listeners explain what happened in some instance you were called to meet Dominic Cummings and what happened? Yeah so I was called to meet him we had a sort of a disagreement and I think much of that has played out into the

media I think for me given that this event happened a year and a half and I think much of that has played out into the media. I think for me given that this event happened a year and a half ago it's much more important to focus on the learnings so where is government now, what steps have been taken to protect special advisors you know it's such a unique role where people who are not that much older than me have had to fight for really basic things like maternity leave and maternity rights um and quite a lot of people might not have sort of sympathy given that role is so privileged but I think that's where I would like to focus and I do feel like there's been change in that space with some recent hiring I mean some people will not have read those media reports and and part of the reports uh that I have read and many will have read centred around the fact it was a very short meeting.

It was only around 10 minutes in length. And you were asked or demanded to give over your personal and work phone. Is that the case? So I think the thing I'd like to make clear is that for me, being someone who comes from a very working class background, it's a hugely privileged role. So the idea that when you fought so hard to get a seat at the table, you would then give it up to like leak something or have improper relations just isn't true. And I should say that was the accusation that has been levelled at you. Not you're saying it was never said to you,

but it seemed to emanate out at that time that you were being accused of speaking to a former colleague, having worked for a previous chancellor, Philip Hammond, about the details of no deal planning for Brexit. Yeah, and I'm making sort of clear that those accusations weren't right or fair. And on the basis that I've just outlined to you... But that's what Dominic Cummings said to you. I'm not going to get into the detail of that meeting, but I'm just making very clear that the things that were sort of levelled at the time weren't true and on the basis that when you come from a normal background and you get a job in government

where you get to influence and advise, the last thing you're going to do is throw it away. So your point there, you started to answer that question with regards to handing over your phones. Are you saying you did that because you were trying to keep your job? You wanted to hang on to it? The entire time I was in government, I was totally transparent. I did what was asked of me.

So I'm just making clear that some of those accusations, well, all of those accusations that were played out into the press weren't right. And on the basis that when you've got a seat at that table and you come from a seat at that table and you come from a very normal background you're going to fight to make sure that your views are heard and that you represent people who come from your background not just throw it away for something minor. That meeting was very short do you feel you lost that fight? I feel like the fight has been a long one and it's been a year and a half long.

And it was much more important to me to see that through and not react to what was in the media at the time and to be in a space where changes are made in government. And that was one of the reasons that I settled out of court was on the basis that I felt comfortable that it wasn't going to happen again. So last year... I'd love to come to that in just a moment, if I may, but talking about your feelings at that time, if I can, because you're human at the centre of this. You were 27 at the time this happened. And actually, a lot of people spoke out, either on or off the record, in defence of you,

because in terms of Boris Johnson having just become prime minister, literally only a few weeks earlier, having taken over the Conservative Party, you were described almost as a model employee, you know, a Brexiteer, a true Conservative. You're very passionate about the party. And people couldn't believe that you'd lost your job. How did you feel when you lost your job?

I'm quite calm under pressure. So my thoughts were, firstly, as someone who felt like an older special advisor, I'm sort of nearly in my 30s. So I guess in the grand scheme of things, that's not old. But I'd been in government for five years, I'd worked under three prime ministers. And my sort of first thought was, I really didn't want this to happen to anyone else um I didn't want anyone else to go through that I didn't want that to set a standard or a precedent that it was okay and that behaviors like that should be acceptable and then behaviors like what as in sort of how my exit happened can we can we talk about that? Because again, some of our listeners may not recall. You were, what, taken out of Downing Street, walked down it. Tell us what happened. So, I mean, I walked out of Downing Street with one of the police officers who was stationed out there. But it's definitely not as dramatic as it sounds.

He was actually really nice and he was just walking me to a back gate because I didn't have a pass to exit at that stage and we had a really sort of cordial conversation on the way down. I'm sure he was lovely, but you lose your job, you then decide to go to a tribunal about it subsequently and we're going to get into all of those reasons. But you were taken out of Downing Street after a very short meeting trying to fight

for the job that you loved and the police officer could be the nicest man in the world but you were walked down Downing Street by a police officer which caused some people to be concerned how were you feeling at that moment? So I mean I felt actually sorry for the police officer because he hadn't been in that situation before and he I think was shocked at the request for the police officer because he hadn't been in that situation before and he I think was shocked at the request because the police don't get involved in those sorts of employment sort of issues or exercises so yeah actually my first thought was I really feel sorry for this man because he's now going to have to like write this up and go through a proper process and actually since then I had a really good conversation with the metropolitan police who assured me that they now have processes in

place to make sure that that doesn't happen again and so no one feels compromised because it was you say you'd never had that request before so it was a request as far as I'm aware it was a request to have a 27 year old experienced special advisor escorted off the premises down Downing Street that that isn't typical is it? I mean not as far as I'm aware and based on my conversation with the Metropolitan Police it doesn't sound like they have had to do that before or that they have done that since which I think is really important because it feels like they have made some gains in terms of just protecting themselves and making sure they actually have procedures in place. So actually, I felt quite privileged to be able to meet them

and for them to explain their actions on that day. But could you take me how you were feeling at that time? I totally respect that you're trying to control your emotions probably and you're feeling towards that police officer being put in that situation. But you've just lost your job. And as you say, a job that was a privilege you wanted to do and it will have come out of nowhere and for things that you do not accept that you did.

How did you feel, Sonia? I mean, I'm quite calm and depressive. The idea of thinking about other people definitely isn't new to me. And as I say, I was concerned about the other special advisors who might think that, you know, this is acceptable behavior and the police officer. I also think it's one of those situations and everyone will have had one in life where something happens really quickly. And it's not until afterwards that you really sort of think about it or you really understand it. But in the moment, I was definitely sort of thinking about the people around me.

And how did you feel when you reflected on it? I think my sort of guiding thought was that if I did nothing, then nothing would change and that this was a dangerous precedent for the government to set, not just to other people who work in government, but businesses and other organisations who deal with employees. Well, it's not how you hope the government running the country should react or treat its employees. No, and I do feel like in the year and a half,

there has been significant change. And I hear from people who work in government now about how, you know, they have an induction and they have support and mentors. So it does feel like, I don't know if it's linked to my case, but there has been more change in terms of providing support for those people. Your friends said you were shaken by it. When you reflected on it, you said you wanted to change things for others. There must have been a feeling or an emotion driving that. it anger was it frustration was it upset I think it was more um determination to change things I think is the truth I'm not someone who sits and reflects on things for a

really long time which may be a lifetime habit but But I definitely felt a sense of I want to prevent anyone else from going through this and I want to try and make a change. And my early thoughts were, how do I do that? I didn't even know that tribunals were a process or a thing until I looked into it a bit more. So I think I tried to train my brain to be active so that I didn't have to sort of focus on kind of the events too much. Were you scared of Dominic Cummings? Do you know, I think when you come from the background that I have,

which is like very, very working class and very normal, the things that scare me are sort of like people around me being in poor health, not people. Do you understand why some people have found him intimidating? I mean, I can see why he or anyone else in government, particularly those who are in really powerful roles, can be seen that way. But you didn't feel intimidated by him when he asked for your phones

and then requested for a police officer to take you down Downing Street? I think more broadly I've come across situations in my life, one of those has been held at knife point where I live. I think there have been other situations where I have felt sort of intimidated. For me, much of how I'm written is about one person and I sort of feel today that I don't want to be a footnote in someone else's history and that actually it's much more important

to talk about the other people there's obviously been a personnel change as you highlight since Christmas and how did you feel when you heard Dominic Cummings was leaving I mean he didn't get a police escort down Downing Street you may have noticed that as he walked out with his cardboard box um I don't know the circumstances of of him leaving I mean I guess I was much more focused on kind of um what is the government working on how will they work on it what I mean do those priorities change do much more focused on kind of what is the government working on? How will they work on it? I mean, do those priorities change? But you must have a view.

Do you think it will be better? You've just mentioned the change of personnel. We've heard it's going to be a kinder politics. It's going to be different at the absolute top of the government. Do you believe that? I do. And I think that whilst I don't know them very closely, that people like Allegra Stratton do believe that sort of the treatment of special advisers has to change and that there are more protections in place now. Sonia Khan, a government spokesperson said special advisers are temporary civil servants.

It's an important point of principle that ministers can select their special advisers and therefore, if they lose confidence in them, can also dismiss them. And this remains the case. This is a long-standing provision under successive governments and is set out in the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act of 2010. Now, still to come, after our message from Her Majesty the Queen, we'll be joined by the next in line to play her in the wildly popular Netflix series The Crown, Imelda Staunton. So do stay with us for

that and keep your messages coming in as you and I get to know one another. Just tell me what you really think about what you're hearing and perhaps your hopes and dreams for 2021. A message that came in here just before which said, what a way to start. The Queen and a Spice Girl has cheered me up this morning. Keep those messages coming in on 84844. Now on Boxing Day, British Iranian charity worker Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe marked her 42nd birthday, the fifth since she was detained while visiting family in Iran. Sentenced to five years imprisonment for plotting to topple the Iranian government, a charge she has always denied,

she was released to house imprisonment last March and has been at her parents' home in Tehran since. Nazanin cannot travel to see her husband and six-year-old daughter Gabriela in London and is not allowed to go more than 300 metres outside. She's facing fresh criminal charges before her current sentence finishes in March. Her husband Richard Ratcliffe believes

she's being effectively held hostage and that the British government is not trying hard enough to get her home. Richard's lawyers recently received a letter from the Foreign Office, which stated that they do not have a legal duty of care to British nationals overseas. Richard is with me now in the studio

and joining us down the line is Jeremy Hunt MP, who was Foreign Secretary in 2019, granted Nazanin diplomatic protection. Richard, let me start with you. Good morning. I must start by asking, how is Nazanin? Morning, Emma. Yeah, no, thank you for having us on. So Nazanin actually at the moment is OK. Probably, as you say, she's got nine weeks to go until the end of her sentence. Officially, at the moment, there is a second court case hanging over. But for her, she's focusing on the hope and so counting down the days. And, yeah, hopefully this will not drag on for years more as perhaps her husband fears.

May I ask about Gabriella as well? Yeah, she's OK. Yeah, OK, like all small children, probably was expecting to go back to school, slightly disoriented, had a happy Christmas, though did, because her father had left some shopping until quite late on, did ask on Christmas morning whether Father Christmas had actually got her Christmas list. Some people will also be nodding along, but you've got a lot going on, it's safe to say. Can I just bring you to that letter from the Foreign Office?

You know, even if people listening don't know very much about your case, your wife's case, at the moment, to hear that you do not, there is not a legal duty of care to British nationals overseas. What was your reaction to that? Yeah, we were quite shocked. So the background to it is we'd had a meeting with the Foreign Office lawyers, where I just felt like I wondered if we were talking past each other and my sort of expectation was it was their job to get Nazanin home and it felt like they were kind of helping

us do our job to get her home. So we asked them, well what do you think your obligations are, what are your responsibilities in this case and it was, you know, if it's a normal consular case, if it's a torture case, if it's a hostage case and if you've granted diplomatic protection. And the answer came back was none, none, none, and none. And I was really shocked, particularly

that it would be true for all British citizens, even in cases of, you know, when you're being tortured overseas, even when you're being held, as in our case, as leverage over a government debt. It's like, well, how can that not be partly your problem? That can't just be our problem. Let's bring in Jeremy Hunt to this. Jeremy Hunt, good morning. Is it really the position of the UK government that they don't need to look after their citizens overseas? Well, it may be the legal position, but we clearly have a moral duty to do everything for British citizens who are wrongly imprisoned abroad. And that is what government is there to do to protect its citizens so I think that letter was extremely clumsily worded and it may be that if if this is

the position the foreign office is really formally taking that that law needs to be changed but I think it is absolutely clear when you have someone who is innocent, who has been through the most appalling torture over five years, as Nazanin has, that we should do absolutely everything in our power. And I feel at the moment that, frankly, Iran is taking the mickey with Britain. They have got one of our citizens in prison wrongly for four years. They know perfectly well she's innocent. And I don't feel they're paying a price for that. And in this sort of post Brexit era that we're in, I think Britain aspires to be to remain a powerful country on the global stage. And we need to make it absolutely clear that there is a very, very big price to be paid if you treat British citizens this way.

But why do you think more isn't being done by the person who is foreign secretary right now? Why isn't he able to say all that you are saying? Well, I think he is doing a lot. And I'm very aware of how much work happens behind the scenes that can never get into the public arena. And by the way, you know, just listening to Richard's calm voice slightly belies the extraordinary courage of Richard and Nazanin, because there are many other hostages being held by Iran and not just British hostages. And they're always advised by their foreign ministries in this country or other countries to keep quiet about it.

And Richard's the first one who's gone public. And because of his courage and Nazanin's courage, the world knows about this hostage taking by Iran. And it's an incredibly brave thing that they've done. And I think that is a useful background. But just to bring Richard back in on this point, you know, Jeremy Hunt's saying there's a lot going on behind the scenes. But you've been at this for years now. Yeah, no, so I'm sure he's right. B, I think I would have no doubt that Dominic Raab,

the current Foreign Secretary, cares personally very closely. And he's spoken to Nazni and he's spoken to me and that comes through. And C, yes, I'm sceptical that whatever's being done, it hasn't worked after all these years. And I do think that the government's advice is still to new people to keep quiet. And we've had, I mean, that the government's advice is still to new people to keep quiet. And we've had, I mean, even the last three months, we've had one new conviction and two new arrests of British Iranians that I'm aware of. So it's still going on as a problem. I think, I think Jeremy

Hunt's right that actually, the Iranian regime, which is complicated, is not taking seriously the fact that Britain will protect its citizens. And why is that, Jeremy Hunt, in terms of you say Britain in this post-Brexit era could, you know, could be looking weak in the way that we're handling this at the moment? Because just to give a bit more background here, there's a strong belief that Nazanin's being used as leverage in a diplomatic row over an unpaid debt owed by the UK to Iran dating back to the 70s. Does that have to be repaid in some way before she can come home, do you think? Well, the first thing is that we must never allow any linkage between a diplomatic dispute or a legal dispute or a financial dispute between countries and hostage taking, because we quite

rightly have a policy that you mustn't reward countries who do this totally obscene thing of taking hostages to try and solve diplomatic disputes. There is a difference in this case, though, because a court has ruled that Britain owes this money to Iran. It's a debt that goes back to the Shah's time. And internationally, legally, we owe that money to Iran. So I don't think we should be accepting any linkage, but we should certainly be doing what we can to settle this issue very, very quickly indeed, because it has been going on a very long time. How much do you think, Jeremy Hunt, that Boris Johnson should really be putting

the pressure on her? Because of course, when he was Foreign Secretary, he told a Commons committee that Nazanin was teaching people journalism in Iran. And Iranian officials have obviously, we know, cited his words as evidence that she engaged in propaganda against the regime. Well, I do think that Boris has a very, very important role because having been Foreign Secretary, I know that the things that need to be sorted to make this happen can't just be done by the Foreign secretary so the the debt issue that richard is doing enough well i think he needs to show personal interest in this because it's not just the foreign office the debt issue is the ministry of defense for example um and once a

country's leader shows interest uh then things always start to move faster. So I know Boris does care a lot about Nazanin's case, but I think he can make a difference as prime minister in terms of what he does now. Do you feel like he's doing enough to put this at the very top, Richard? Look, I think he can always do more. You know, Gabriela wrote a Christmas letter to him. And in fairness to him, he responded and said, listen, I put your letter on my desk. And I'm sorry, you know, I'm doing all I can to get your mummy home. And I'm sorry it's taken so long. So I don't doubt he cares. I do think the government's approach, led by the Prime Minister,

could be tougher. And I do think, you know, one of the most important things I think any politician can do is when faced with injustice, and there are many, is to recognise it honestly, to be straightforward about it and to, you know, to make sure they deliver on their word. Do you have any inkling as to why he's not doing more? So I don't, I never quite understand why our case is so complicated. I think, you know, I met Boris when he was last year, almost a year ago. And he was straightforward there to our face that, listen, we'll do what we can. So I'm not sure I know quite why it's taken so long. Clearly the Foreign Office, I Jeremy Hatton said, does things behind closed doors that it doesn't want the family to be aware of. And even now, I don't know what I don't know.

But yeah, I think we will look to have a meeting with the Foreign Secretary, perhaps the Prime Minister, in the coming weeks, just to say, listen, if she's not released at the end of her sentence, which is now nine weeks, what are you going to do? This could be dragged on. There are more people being weeks, what are you going to do? Like this could be dragged on. There are more people being taken. What are you going to do to solve this? Well, perhaps we'll talk again.

Thank you very much for joining us today, Richard. May I, just while you're on the line, Jeremy Hunt, if I can, as chair of the Health Select Committee and, of course, former health secretary for a long period. Of course, we're thinking about further restrictions today and what's going on there. And you were quoted over the weekend as saying it was massively risky to open schools when so many parts of the NHS are teetering on the brink, saying you wouldn't be surprised if we end up effectively keeping the majority of schools closed until the February half term.

Is that what you think is going to happen? I think it may do and I think it should do. I think we've got to recognise that the NHS is in an incredibly challenging state at the moment. We've got many more beds occupied by COVID patients than we had in the first wave. We're now starting to see fewer people turning up at hospitals with heart attacks, and that doesn't mean that they are not getting those heart attacks it means they're not going to hospital they're not dialing 999 and sadly it may mean they're dying at home. Impact on cancer care I think we've got to recognise we have a very very virulent new strain and it is a national

emergency and we are going to need to go a lot further and a lot faster. And I think the sooner we take these tough measures, the better. Are you expecting a third lockdown effectively in the next couple of days then? I think it may well be the case. And if it did, it would have my full support. And just finally, if I may, on the exams point in England, because of what you've just said about schools perhaps remaining closed until February or who knows when, and a lot of people, of course, parents listening to this as well. Do you think exams should be cancelled because of that? That's not normal service, if that's how it is.

I think the issue of exams being cancelled starts to happen when some schools have had very different treatment to other schools. But if all schools are treated the same, so if all schools are closed and all the students in a year group have had the same level of disruption, then you can start to think of ways of giving people grades that are fair. It becomes much harder when schools are treated differently in different parts of the country. But exams, as we know, they're not quite if we haven't got school open. I think quite possibly not. Jeremy Hunt, thank you very much for your time.

And I should say, with reference to our discussion about Nazanin's status, that we do have a statement from the Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office. A spokesperson said, we are doing everything we can to enable Nazanin to return home and secure the release of all British dual nationals arbitrarily detained in Iran so that they can be reunited with their loved ones. Thank you very much again to Richard for coming to talk to us and we'll talk again. Now to some she's Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter, to others she'll always be Vera Drake, a brave backstreet abortionist. For relatively new parents like myself, she's also the voice of the Gruffalo, heard over and over and over again. Arguably, her biggest role beckons

this summer as she begins playing none other than the woman we started the programme with, Her Majesty, as she had a message for you and for all of us. So from the Queen to another waiting in the wings, if I can put it like that, Imelda Staunton, good morning. Good morning and happy, happy new year. The same to you. How was Christmas, if I may ask, during this strange time?

Because I always imagine living with your husband, Jim Carter, of course, a trained butler, Carson, no less, from Downton Abbey. You must get the finest service. I certainly do. Yeah, I certainly do. Well, it was a wonderful Christmas, weirdly, because our daughter came back about early December. So the three of us were together

and it was very relaxed and we got out as much as we could. And I cooked up a storm and we had games and we sort of kept it small intense and delightful small intense and delightful i like that very much um it is a very strange time indeed and of course there's so much of your career to mention i didn't mention your huge back catalogue of theatre performances and you know the lights are still off in our theatres what do you feel we're losing by not seeing or having our theatres open? Well, it was interesting. So I did a small bit of theatre in September. We did Talking Heads, Alan Bennett's Talking Heads, which we had done on the television. And then the Bridge Theatre opened up to, obviously, socially distanced audience. There were 250 people there. And what struck me was people's delight

in just being in a place together safely, but reacting, because I thought, well, look, we've done it on the telly. We don't need to do it in the theatre. But my God, was I wrong. There were, the audience was just so grateful

and appreciative and just sort of wallowing, if you like, in each other's company and had to have a uniformed reaction to something. We miss that. I mean, God, we've all been swallowing television like there's no tomorrow, sitting in our own homes, whether you're on your own or with a couple of you sitting there, but sitting in a place where you can all react to something it does something to your to your metabolism um and i think that's what's missing the the uniformed reaction of a group of people whether it's a the theater or a festival or

whatever a communal experience is vital yes you're so right you don't really notice it because it's what we've been allowed to do uh for always but you are right we are inhaling television uh yes like no other time um and you are getting ready for a big role on television and we did start our program with a message from her majesty talking about the uh the evolving role of women in society i wonder do you see her as a feminist icon? Well, I think, I mean, and you started with Mel C singing that beautiful rendition. Of course, my daughter and I just burst into tears.

Then I had to pull myself together. I nearly cried too. Oh, don't. But, you know, of course, the Queen, you know, you think, well, I think she might be an original Spice Girl because girl power is what she, you know, she became, you know, the head of our state and all that sort of thing and i do think she's um i feel her role as you know it's a continuity of the queen

that has been so sort of important i think in the last what is it 60 years that she's always been there because our society is becoming more you know uh we just chuck that away move on move on move on and to have something you know whatever you feel about you know whether you're a royalist or not this person has got up and gone to work every day um for 60 years and and i sort of admire that and i think you know all the actresses be it helen mirren claire foy olivia coleman you know they've all come to go think, you know, all the actresses, be it Helen Mirren, Claire Foy, Olivia Colman, you know, they've all come to go, well, do you know what? I don't know if I could have done that.

Day in, day out, hour in, hour out, just turning up every single day and doing, you know, her duty. And I feel that that is her most important sort of the aspect that's most important about her is her ability to just be there and be solid for everyone at all times how have you gone about trying to perfect her have you been wandering around this Christmas period in your home saying words in her way what are you doing i have a bit and there was one day i was out in the garden with the dog and i was just going and then jim came out he said what are you doing i said i said did you hear me he said yes i could hear you

like you were just the mad person just wandering around whispering on so um yes i think i do when I don't even know I'm doing it. You're just wandering around being the queen? Yes. Have you met her? Yes, I have I suppose. Yes, I mean over the years, sort of, I mean she came to

a theatre back in 1986. She came down to the Swan Theatre at the Royal Shakespeare Company. We did a show there. She came there and then I think I got an OBE and she gave me that. So you've actually been given an OBE by the woman you're about to play. That's quite a rare experience, isn't it?

That's a bit odd. And then, no, I'm wondering about, I also sang at her 90th birthday. Oh, just casual, Imelda. Just throw it out there. Yes. Well, no, but also, this is what I like. This is the line-up.

Shirley Bassey, Kylie Minogue, and who? Yes. And so, but then it was at Windsor Great Park. And the whole show, her 90th birthday, was in the ring where they have horse events. So I sang a song while a troop of shetland ponies were doing a grand national in front of me so you know kylie sang to white stallions shirley batty with these gorgeous great suicide and me with shetland

ponies so i think that's just about sums it up i read that that your late mum was a big fan. What would she make of you playing the Queen? Oh, my goodness me. She would be over the moon. And, you know, Irish woman coming over here in the 50s, you know, I'm a daughter of immigrants, but she adored the Queen. I don't know if it was her dress sense, but she adored her. Do you feel a pressure?

Because, of course, the most recent series, there has been, you know, some reaction and there has been some concern around some of the hate directed to Charles and Camilla because it's coming more into recent times. Do you feel a responsibility and a pressure to get it right? Well, I do. And I think, of course I do. But also, I think my sort of extra challenge is, if I need it, is that I'm now doing the Queen that we're all a little more familiar with. With Claire Foy, you know, it was almost history, you know, the 50s, 40s. And now I feel I'm playing one that people can say, well, she doesn't do that. Well, she's not like that. And so that's my personal sort of little bête noire for me to deal with.

Do you think there should be that sort of warning at the beginning of programmes? This is based on, you know, imagined events based on real historical occurrences? Because, of course, you said it's about the private lives, which we can't know. No. Well, I mean, I think that is up to producers and directors to decide but you know surely you want to say to an audience now look you know no one knows this isn't you know verbatim this isn't taken from diaries and you know so you've got to use your imagination i think and allow the audience i i'd like to allow the audience a bit of intelligence and go, well, you can't know, you can't know that's what Margaret and Elizabeth were talking about. And just, and trust them with it. Well, Imelda, we're going to sadly have to leave it

there. But I know you've got important walking around the garden pretending to be Her Majesty to do and I do not wish to interrupt that process. It's a pleasure to talk to you as you're the next in line. And welcoming you to the helm of this new ship, this Woman's Hour ship. How brilliant. Imelda Staunton, that's extremely generous. Thank you very much. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.