Woman's Hour - Emma Hayes, manager of Chelsea FC Women, Karis Anderson on Tina Turner, Rose Matafeo and Emma Sidi on Starstruck

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

Emma Hayes has been manager of Chelsea Women football team for more than a decade, a reign made remarkable by six Women’s Super League titles, five FA Cups and two League Cups. Emma joins Hayley Hassall to discuss leadership in football and beyond, motherhood and women's health. Emma Hayes’ new audiobook, Kill the Unicorn, explores how her experience coaching elite female athletes has lessons for all of us. On 24 May, the iconic singer Tina Turner died at the age of 83. For the last five years her life and music have been portrayed on stage in London’s West End to endless audiences keen to continue to enjoy her songs and watch the highs and lows, particularly of her early life, marriage to Ike Turner and then the revival of her career as a solo artist. Karis Anderson has recently taken on the role of Tina and joins Hayley in the Woman’s Hour studio. Women in Afghanistan are turning to nursing as one of the few remaining professions they are permitted to do under the Taliban. But nursing itself is facing a crisis in the country. Former BBC Persia journalist Bahaar Joya is now a nurse in London. She describes the training she wants to provide for nurses in Afghanistan, and what the women there are telling her.The hit BBC Three and HBO rom-com series Starstruck is back on our screens with its third season - following the main character Jessie and her best friend Kate through their late 20s and early 30s in London. Rose Matafeo has co-written the show and plays Jessie and Emma Sidi plays Kate. They join Hayley to discuss their characters and their friendship.Presented by Hayley Hassall Producer: Louise Corley Studio Engineers: Andrew Garratt & Sue Maillot00:00 OPENER 02:38 EMMA HAYES 23:52 TINA TURNER 36:45 AFGHAN NURSE 47:19 ROSE MATAFEO AND EMMA SIDI

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Hayley Hassell and welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. And what a powerful, inspirational and talented gaggle of women we have for you on the programme today. Let me kick off with Emma Hayes, manager of Chelsea women's football team and the first and only female football manager to win six women's Super League titles, five FA Cups and two League Cups, plus many more personal awards. She's here to talk about her new audiobook, which not only talks

about her wins, but offers some great guidance on leadership, management, working as a team, but also dealing with failure and emotions and even periods. So we're talking about leadership here on the programme this morning. Have you had a good leader? I mean, a really good leader, one of those people who have enabled you to be your best, or achieve something that you never saw possible? Or have they helped you with something personal and made it that you can cope when otherwise you perhaps would have failed? Please let me know your stories this morning. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.

You can contact us on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour. And you can email us through our website too. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note using the number 03700 100 444. We love to hear your stories here on Woman's Hour, so please do send those in. Also, it's been two years since the Taliban took over Kabul and Afghanistan, effectively overthrowing the Afghan government. Since then, the civil laws for women have changed drastically, meaning they can no longer go to school or work in many jobs. the Afghan government. Since then, the civil laws for women have changed drastically, meaning they can no longer go to school or work in many jobs. But what they can do is work as midwives and nurses, something the Taliban have not yet put a stop to. So I'll be speaking to journalist

and nurse Bahar Joya about life for women in Afghanistan right now and her fears for the future. Then later in the programme, I'll be joined by the co-producers and actors of Starstruck. Have you watched it yet? Have you been following the complicated on-off romance of Jessie and Tom? Well, they'll be here to offer no spoilers, of course, but to talk about the series' success and why it's been hailed as creating the new Bridget Jones. But we also have a treat for you, because just three months after the legendary Tina Turner died at the age of 83,

I'm speaking to the singer and actress who is keeping her songs and spirit alive in the musical of her life. We're going to find out a bit more about the woman herself, plus hear her truly fantastic version of Simply the Best. So make sure you stay tuned for that. It's definitely something to hold on to. But first, Emma Hayes has been manager of Chelsea women's football team for over a decade. A reign made remarkable by six women's Super League titles, five FA Cups and two League Cups. Emma herself has won Women's Super League Manager of the Season six times and Best FIFA Football Coach of 2021. Honestly, what a CV, I could go on. But it hasn't been an easy ride.

Katie Chapman, who played for Chelsea under Emma, said she's built everything at the club, from having the kit washed to having your own training and pitches. She says Emma fought for years to make this possible. Well, it's a mission she's been on ever since her dad encouraged her to change the face of women's football in the 1990s. Her career did begin in America, but it's in the UK where she's made her biggest impact, not just in the world of football, but away from it too, particularly in relation to women's health, which we will get onto today. Because she now joins me here in the studio to discuss her new audio book, Kill the Unicorn, which aims to demystify the role of the leader and how Emma's experience coaching elite female athletes has lessons for us all. So I'm so delighted to say that Emma is here with us now. I know you cringe through a lot of that and you get embarrassed about anyone saying you are a legend, so I'll try not to too much. But given we have been talking about women's football so much in recent weeks after the amazing success of the World Cup,

it's certainly a good time to publish your books. But what prompted you to do it and write it now? Well, it's taken a while. I think, to be honest with you, it's something I've always thought about in the background. And if you come to my house, there'll be years worth of notes that were needed to be put into a book. And I have to thank Mike Calvin for that, to be honest with you. He really pushed me and it's taken about 18 months to get to this point, to be honest. And I know you obviously hate being called a superhero or a legend. So I'll try to stop doing that. But you do want to challenge the perception that a manager is this superior being, this unicorn, as you call it.

So tell us more about your leadership style and what you're trying to achieve by letting people listen to this. Well, I often talk about being almost like a CEO or a head contractor of an organisation or I'm laying down the foundations to build a house but it needs everybody to be able to build it and fill it. So I have to manage across so many different people and of course to be able to deliver what I want to deliver I might not be the best person to get the best out of everyone and I have to recognise who can and who can't and go from there. Because you are so successful so it's interesting that you're saying but I'm not necessarily the best at everything so is it is your role perhaps at bringing the best out of others rather than

surpassing all that? It's a bit of a facilitator I think of my role as a facilitator so there might be players certain players who require certain things And I might have an assistant who's better equipped to deal with that. Whereas I might be better off dealing with certain other players over certain areas. That's why for me, it's so critical we get to know who your people are. Because I keep getting asked this question all the time. What is leadership? What does it look like? And the more I get asked that question the less I know I feel I feel like what it is is is understanding that in order to get the best out of a team it requires many different people and many different facets to make that happen not just

one head coach for example or a CEO or one manager but how do you do that? Because as you say, you've got a lot of players and other people to organise and coach and see through life. And is it about building trust between you and those people? Because you actually say that the truth-telling moment is when you ask a player, how can I help you? Because that actually opens up some difficult conversations

that many people sometimes don't want to know. You know, lots of managers will say, your personal life is your personal life. I don't need to know who you are you just need to do the job but it seems that that's not your style at all. No and I don't want to pry into their lives if they want to keep it to themselves but especially when they're troubled I think emotional intelligence is is highly required and if I notice something from body language to to things that they not quite doing at the level I expect them to or that they're used to doing, I'll always challenge it. I'll ask what's going on.

And as I said before, if it's not me, I will certainly get somebody else in the way of them being at their best. It certainly, I think, makes people feel more free and more lifted to be able to perform to their very best level. But what has the response been to that? You know, you're opening up those questions. Are people reluctant or have you come across some instances where you've gone real deep? Yeah, no, absolutely.

I can think of conversations on throughout my whole career whether it's dealing with you know players whose parents are alcoholics or uh they've had suicidal thoughts or there's mental health issues or extreme menstrual cycle problems or big relationship build up uh breakups i think most of the people i coach are are relatively young in their early 20s. So I have to be able to help them navigate that as well as trying to get them to perform on the pitch. And have you found that their performance on the pitch is affected by those things? Obviously, if anyone leaves someone in their family or they're going through a personal difficulty, surely that's going to affect them. Yeah, massively. There's no question.

And, you know, I think what's great about a team environment is the team look after each other in that. But then you've got to add to that social players around in terms of giving them that lifestyle and almost life coaching to be honest yeah what came across from listening to your book and I've listened to the whole thing by the way is that you are a bit more of a counsellor than than perhaps a leader at the top who doesn't know anybody yeah no no question I have to navigate from I mean and this isn't just about the players I might have interactions between staff that aren't going particularly well. And what we manage is, well, we call them great conversations, not appraisals.-ins if it's not me it will be somebody else in my team to to try and I always say you have to you have to put little fires out before they become big ones and if you stay on top of the little fires you can keep a team navigating if you ignore them they'll blow up in a really big way yeah it sounds like a lot

of hard work but you're obviously doing very well at it and I'm going to go on now and ask you much more about the audiobook and the leadership style. But first, I can't go on without asking you your reaction to the news this week and your opinion following Luis Rubiales, the head of Spanish football, and the kiss he planted on Jenny Hermoso during the World Cup celebrations. What are your thoughts on that and how it was handled? I think my thoughts are firstly with the players and with the whole of girls' and women's football across Spain

because this isn't just an isolated incident. This is about a systemic problem over a number of years where the women's national team have complained on more than one occasion about the level of of treatment and equality of of opportunity and access for for all of them that you know this is a huge wake-up moment for for spanish society this is this goes beyond spanish football about how women feel they're treated or mistreated and you know I hope that it will bring seismic systemic change and you can see with the reaction across Spain that women across the country are certainly in support of Jenny Hermoso and the entire Spanish team. I mean obviously that

kiss was such on a public platform that everyone was was sort of shocked by it. But do you believe there is a misogyny in football that goes on behind the scenes? A hundred percent, yeah. It happens here as much as it happens in Spain. You know, I have to deal with it on a regular basis. So do I think we are much further ahead than Spain per se? Yes, but we've still got so much work to do. And I think about, you know,

the lack of opportunity and access we still have in our sport. You know, I'm championing hard that football stadiums, every football stadium is a club stadium. Therefore, it should be accessible to men's and women's teams. And we should be working towards,

you know, equal access, knowing that there's a growing fan base, there's a growing appetite for the game. And I think we need better support to be able to display, you know, what we know is to be a top professional sport and have to be given the same opportunity as our male counterparts. In what ways are you dealing with that misogyny behind the scenes? Because I think we all see, especially after the World Cup,

wow, women's footballers are doing so well. Aren't we all celebrating that? But what's happening behind the scenes that we still have work to do? Well, you get things like, oh, you know, the women's team loses so much money. And I'll say, well, I don't know, if Nike give a sponsorship deal to a football club, perhaps they need to, excuse me, more overtly state that that money is

for the club not just the men's team so it's easy the problems are in the system and we have to challenge those systems so that they reflect that a women's team is part of a brand and that brand if it receives sponsorship money or revenue from across wherever it may be, that it is to be representative and recorded, most importantly, in profit sheets, that women's football isn't a loss-making business. But it's convenient and comfortable for people to make those statements. In use against it. There's also the case of Mason Greenwood,

who was eventually dropped by Manchester United after his arrest in January 2022, following allegations surrounding material which was published online. The case was dropped, but Man United were criticised for how long they took to decide to part ways with that player. I mean, what's your assessment of where football is now? I'm going back to that inherent misogynisticness. And does football have a women problem women problem yeah of course it has a women's problem and um i think we have to look at some of the work that's been done to challenge

exactly the same issues around racism that so many people are unaware of how inherently misogynist they really are and that there has to be an education process about what that looks like because, as I always say, if you're growing up seeing male commentators, just men's football, just male broadcasters, male managers, of course some people are finding it difficult to accept that the game is for men and women and that we can have an equal part in it. So, you know, I think everybody, that entire system, that entire infrastructure has a lot to do to redress that balance. But it isn't going to happen overnight. I do think we are making strides in the right direction.

But, you know, as always, we want to keep progressing. And you obviously work in that very male-dominated environment. I know you said in your audio book, it's quite funny, you can't just ring Sir Alex Ferguson and ask him how he deals with players' periods. You've got different challenges. So what is it like for you in that environment? And what are the different challenges you face? Well, first of all, we're not men. Let's start with that. And with that comes a whole different

set of challenges. I'm sure if I coached in men's football, I'd be asking exactly the same question. But that has to be the starting point from everything to how we eat, to how we rest, to how we train, to how we recover. All of those considerations need to be thought about how we supplement you know we put the right things something as basic as making sure we get omega-3 into our body because we can't ingest enough through our diet but it's significant for women to ignore those things plus the realities around women who perhaps aren't having regular periods and the challenges that might come with that and then creating a support network which quite simply doesn't exist.

That's for me the big thing. We have to drive industry change to say, look, if we want women to be at their very best in sport, we need more movement coaches that understand women. We need more pelvic floor specialists. We need more sports science around women's bodies we need more research around women's sports like we have to drive an industry change and with that I mean I'm challenging academically you know we need more higher education courses in and around

training people in particular areas around women's health women women's bodies, and in particular to women's sports. And that area is massive. There's so much to attack. And you're right, it's been hidden for so long. I mean, I think in every area of industry and business, talking to your boss about periods is excruciatingly, painfully awkward. But the fact that you've opened that up is going to allow to so much more research and development in that area. I know we've seen a number of England players suffer with ACL injuries this season and other strains. You've done a lot of research on this, haven't you? Can you explain about what you found,

particularly in relation to players' injuries and how they are different to men? I think it's what I just described to you. When you have an industry that doesn't get the same, you know, equality of access to experts. We might have lower level or lower paid staff working in the women's game. Therefore, their expertise might be directly out of university.

One, sports scientists whose knowledge around women's bodies and women in sport will be zero are training players and loading players without having any idea whatsoever that goes on for women. And then when we get subsequent injuries where easily and cheaply we dismiss it as, oh, that's just the way, you know, our V angle from our hips to our knees because of the way we are shaped or it's just because of our hormones, not only is outright ignorant, but it just shows you how much work we got to do to be

able to put in place experts and multi-disciplinary teams to work together to make sure we not only keep the players on the pitch but we build them in such a safe way so that their bodies are developed and robust enough to cope with the demands of the game and that for me is the single biggest problem it's not a period but also ACLs exist in the men's game. And now we just, we have a bias towards seeing something, you know, much in the same way when you buy a car. And, you know, when you get in that car, you drive down the street, it's all you see is that same car. We think only ACL injuries exist in the women's game. When actually there's a lot, probably a lot more muscular injuries that we need to be more aware of but expertise for me is the big thing we need better more educated experts around

women's body in the game and for me that starts with higher education we need more courses that are developing more experts and one of the things i was going to get on to actually was was was the rate of women dropping out of sport especially when it comes to motherhood or changes in the physique and we've just had an email in actually someone listening to the program who says um I'm really pleased to hear extreme menstrual cycle issues mentioned in your interviewee as one of the things she has dealt with as a woman's football team manager it led me to leaving sport which I had represented the country at consistently for years because it was impossible to manage whilst also being committed as a team.

So obviously you want to change that, but how much or how many women are dropping out because of issues with either their health or will go on to motherhood as well? You hear lots of people saying, I wanted to become a mother, but I had to leave the game in order to do that. what challenges are you facing across the board i think body confidence body image at young ages we absolutely need to be challenging the department of health and education

around sending the right experts into school to educate girls around their bodies and body image and body confidence and body menstrual cycle. And I think importantly, when it comes to motherhood, challenging HR teams across the country in every employment to be able to put HR policies in that best support women who are going through either planned motherhood or unplanned motherhood or, of course, during menopause. For me, from puberty to menopause, we have a significant amount of work to do, not just in sport, but in society.

And obviously it's something you've been through as well. Becoming a mother has been a massive, one of your biggest achievements, you say, but it's also shifted your focus. It's made you see people rather than players. And tell us about how you work now as a mother. And obviously you went back to work quite quickly. How difficult was that for you?

Yeah, I don't know how I did it, to be honest with you. I don't know what I was thinking back then. I was in a fog the entire time. But I felt like I couldn't leave the job for nine months because if I did, how was I going to leave and go on maternity leave and return to a football job where simply no woman had ever done that before and not and not you know sacrifice myself and i.e the opportunity to continue to coach but we're women we do it we manage did is there a cost to that yes I think there was to my, not just my emotional health, but obviously the endometriosis, which got worse increasingly

over the four years after giving birth. And those pressures were not imposed on me by the club. It was me, myself, feeling like I had to do it. And I have regrets with that. I wish I had taken

a little bit more time to recover. But here we are. Well, that pressure is also something that many women face. It's one of the realities that we still have to try and hurdle. I want to move on to pay now. It's a big discussion within women's football. But today, England women's match fees for cricket internationals have been increased to equal the men's with immediate effect.

Great news. But there's still a gender disparity when it comes to pay across the women's game in football. Well, what I'm looking forward to is when £900 million is bought in during the FIFA World Cup and at the end of this year we'll hopefully have a record broadcasting deal

and record numbers of intendants coming to the game, etc, etc, that we can't have the same old argument that nobody wants to watch women's sport. The reality is they do, and it will keep growing with its own audience. And as long as women are paid fairly and equitably, that's my big thing.

Because people always say to me, oh, you know, Chelsea, you know, the biggest budget. And I almost say to everyone, well, shame on you for asking me that question I believe in paying women fairly and if I lead the way in that then it's something we should celebrate not condemn and and we have to keep investing in women's sport and that's my goal it's always been my life goal and I'm sure I'll continue and you are talking about it so much but it is quite easy to talk about these inequalities but have you ever been made to feel that you should be grateful for where you are?

Absolutely. I get it all the time. Just as I said to you, just being reminded of my place and that, you know, the women's game doesn't bring in this much revenue or, you know, shouldn't be above the level of that. A league two manager or a championship manager and all of those things and and also just the constant questioning around when am I going into the men's game you know the women's game is a high level and I work with world-class athletes and it's not a you know I don't mean to, you know, talk negatively about any male team, male club. But the realities are I already coach elite players. And I think it's important to see that in its own right instead of it being a stepping stone to something.

Yeah. And one of your phrases that you have in the book, which I love, is if it ain't broke, smash it. Yeah. And obviously that's what you're trying to do already. But what would you want your legacy to be? What more do you want to do? What's next for you? Truthfully, my people, when I listen to Karen Carney or any of Luco on TV

and I think about the work those young women are doing and whether it's Carly Telford going into the commercial team at Chelsea, what I want to watch is scores of whether they're former players or people in the game coming through and building upon it that for me is the biggest legacy is that you leave something behind and that's always the people brilliant thank you so much Emma it's been lovely to have you on the show that's Emma Hayes and her audio book Kill the Unicorn is out today and available on Audible and going from one extremely strong person to another, Tina Turner. Because on May the 24th this year, the iconic singer Tina Turner died at the age of 83.

And tribute after tribute poured out for days and weeks following her death. But for the last five years, her life and music have been portrayed on stage in London's West End to endless audiences keen to continue to enjoy her songs and watch the highs and lows particularly of her early life marriage to Ike Turner and then the revival of her career as a solo artist. Well actor and singer Carys Anderson was rehearsing for her very role of Tina Turner in Tina in the musical just as the much-loved singer died. So what's it like to play the part of one of rock's greatest vocalists and most charismatic performers?

Well, Carys joins me now live in the studio. It's lovely to have you for a few minutes because I know you're extremely busy. And later you will get to hear her. She's going to treat us to one of Tina Turner's hit songs live accompanied by Marco Jerica. So we look forward to hearing from that. But first of all, I know you were in the ensemble for a while as an IKET, which is the backing group for Ike and Tina Turner.

And you started covering the lead role for a year before you took it on full time. But what was it like the first time you had to step into those shoes? Well, big shoes to fill, obviously. We like to say, you know, we don't like to copy. It's not about copying. It's about having that spirit and just portraying that on stage rather than just an imitation.

You know, you can't imitate Tina. It's impossible. It's a massive job, but it's so fulfilling it's so fulfilling you know every single part of it the journey the audience being on stage with everybody is the most fulfilling job ever and you must have been doing that when or at least rehearsing for it when the news that Tina died in May came through um what what impact did impact did that have on you and on all the cast? Well, we was on stage. I was playing Ikep and our Tina at the time was Christina Love,

who was actually the last hand-picked Tina by Tina herself and she spent a lot of time with her. Really? So it was really personal? Yeah, and it kind of spread through the theatre. A lot of the boys knew first and they didn't want the girls to know and then we found out halfway through the show and then we didn't want Christina to find out because we know how, you know,

how it would be for her. And then management decided to tell her halfway through the show. You know, she obviously was overwhelmed with sadness, but then she said, Tina would want me to carry on. And that's the truth. And Tina would want all of us to carry on.

And what would Tina do? She would carry on. So that's what we did. And it was the most electric show, especially, I'm getting upset, especially because when we announced it to the audience at the opening of the second act, a lot of them didn't know. You don't really get phone service in the theatre. So we was announcing that to those as well, you know.

What was it? Just quite the atmosphere in there must have been electric. So, you know, it was so electric because everybody knew how difficult it was for us. And we knew how important it was for all of us to carry on, you know, and it was incomplete. You know, it was a complete honour to be able to do that that day. I bet. Yeah. Were you a fan of her and her music before you took part in the production? Yes. I love her music. I would say I became more of a fan since the show because I didn't even know some of the songs.

But her story for me was something that I found a lot of connection to. Her strength and just perseverance, you know, she's been knocked down over and over again. She, like you said, the revival of her career was in her 40s. And I think that's, you know, the most inspiring thing as a black woman, especially. And she just knocked down barriers that kept coming towards her. She just continued to knock them down. And yeah, because, of course, as you say, a woman in her 40s, but she was divorced, suffering rejection by a record industry, which was dominated mostly by white men.

And she went on to achieve that solo stardom she she got over domestic violence it was remarkable for her to come back through that absolutely what what was it that you really resonated with and and how has that I don't know helped you achieve and I mean it's kind of like if she can do it I can yeah what what did you honestly I have that that thought of I guess it's not if she can do it, I can, because there's probably lots of things that Tina can do that I can't. But I think it's more what would Tina do

in this situation? So, you know, I've had my own fair share of, you know, domestic violence in relationships and, you know, hardships in the music industry and, you know, many difficult situations. And it's only now that I'm truly connect, feel connected to Tina's story. And I've just found a whole new strength in me in this last year and a bit. And I'm grateful this show, you know, I might not be in the show forever, but that will stay with me forever.

So, yeah, that connection is unmatched. Carys, I'm so sorry you went through that. But it's so amazing to hear that Tina has helped you in a way because obviously when you see someone that powerful go through that

it makes you feel that I can do that too. Absolutely. And also I guess being in the music industry just I feel like I've never met her unfortunately

but I feel like I knew her. You know I feel in the show you're so connected to her you feel her spirit on that stage with you. I can't even describe it, but yeah, as a performer,

we can perform, we can sing, we can act, we can play characters, but we're playing a real woman. And it's just a little bit different than playing a made-up character. You have to make sure that it's authentic and genuine. Yeah, it's a very special thing to do. I got a glimpse of hearing you earlier when you were rehearsing and you're going to play for us soon. Yes.

But the way you sing, I know it's not a complete copy of Tina Turner, but how have you managed to get her style through? For me, I have more of a high-pitched voice than Tina. And like I said, it's not, we definitely, we really try to make sure people know we're not a tribute show. You know, we don't like to copy or imitate because I feel like it's impossible um we just want the essence of teen and

we want people's ears to kind of prick up and be like oh wow that was a bit teener and for me it was a growth luckily I was first cover for a year and that was me learning learning learning how to really sit into it and ground myself into into the role into the voice into um just that energy i have a little meditation on stage every day before i go on um and i just ground myself and um i try a little rasp here and there and that that sees me through and and obviously it's such a demanding role the songs are huge she is huge her personality is massive yeah um so i know you share the role with alicia paul moses yes yes um but what are the biggest challenges that you both face doing this role um for me the challenges uh are probably more emotional than i mean the physical challenges

of course but you have that in every probably most of the female um roles in the show because i was an ikea and that was maybe more female, more physically demanding because I was doing eight shows a week. I only do four now. But the emotion of it, it's hard to detach yourself from it sometimes, you know, and it's like a rollercoaster of emotions, the whole show. And there's a really tender moment with her mum

and you learn so much about her relationships with people and how much they impacted her choices and her situations and her relationship with her mother was really really tender tell me about that I mean her mother was probably the first person to um push Tina down and kind of try and um diminish her aspirations you know and her hope and her spark and I think that came from Zelma's own place of insecurity and maybe wanting to have that but she couldn't and there was a lot of resentment I believe and during the end of the show towards the end of the show and we see the first kind of we see Zelma admit the impact that she had and why she did it and it's really

really difficult and that's probably the only time that I cry in the show. But it just happens naturally. Tina wasn't a crier. She was somebody who got on and got on with things. She probably had to be after all. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But that's incredibly hard, I imagine,

to perform every night or at least half the week. And it's shown about your amazing performance of how well it's done. It's been nominated for 12 Tony Awards, including Best Musical. But why do you think it's remained so popular and still to sold out audiences? For me, it's the same reason why Tina was so popular.

I think it's just universal. I don't think you can, Tina wasn't somebody that you can categorise, you can't put her in a box. I think she really was completely universal, completely universal and appealed to everybody. And even if you're not a fan of the music, if you come to the show, you will completely respect her story. And, you know, I believe that's why. And from inspirational, amazing people, we are also talking about fantastic leaders.

Those leaders who have really brought out the best in you and perhaps pushed you to achieve something you never thought you could. Lots of people have been texting in today. Sarah Allen says, I think you can also learn from poor leaders. I learned a lot about how not to lead by watching many poor leaders. I noted how their style made me feel and the impact on my teammates and evolved my own style based on trying not to do that myself and I got into leadership positions. Another one here says, oh from Liz in Cambridge, I worked for a small charity and we had a new female CEO. She was young, had a child of school age and a long commute and was the most fantastic person I've ever worked for. She was very demanding but also kind. She pushed me much further in my

role than I thought I could go but it was so collaborative that I enjoyed my work immensely. I will never forget her and would walk over hot coals to work for her again in the future. And this one I worked for an inspirational head teacher. He cared about his staff showing an interest in whatever we were doing. The students, ex-pupils and their parents still comment on how he knew the name of every child. And he cared about his school, thinking nothing of picking up litter he saw around the school. It's the small things that make a lot of difference. Well, please keep those comments coming in. It's amazing to hear your stories on Great Leaders.

It's inspiring all of us. But now, women in Afghanistan are retraining as nurses and midwives, having been banned from most other jobs in the country. Since the Taliban took over Afghanistan in 2021, women and girls have been shut out of schools, universities and businesses. In the news this week, they have been banned from leaving the country to study abroad. Nursing is one of the very few jobs that women are still permitted to do by the Taliban. And for many women, it's the only way they can earn money to support their families. Well, Baha Joya is a freelance journalist on women's affairs for Thomson Reuters Foundation

and a nurse at the Royal Free Hospital. Her main focus since she started as a correspondent for BBC Persia in Afghanistan in 2012 has always been on women. She's been speaking to women nurses in Afghanistan to find out about their situation. And she joins me now. Welcome to the programme, Baha. Thank you very much. I want to go back first a bit because you started your journalism career reporting in Kabul for the BBC Persian service. And you were always focused on women's affairs there. Why did you want to do that? Thank you. Thanks for having me here. So basically when I started my career in journalism in Afghanistan and when it was when I was a

teenage girl in high school and my family before the first period of the Taliban were in Abu Dhabi. So when the new regime came in 2003, we came back to Afghanistan. My father and my mom believed that they can rebuild the country. So my father was a general in army and my mom was a teacher in school. So we came back to Afghanistan. And from that moment, I saw lots of inequalities for women in Afghanistan in the society. And I always wanted to raise these voices somehow. And the only way I found to do this was through media. So I was, I just finished my high school and I joined a radio station in Herat City in West Afghanistan, which called Sahar. It was a radio for women

and focusing on women's issues. And I was working there as a freelance and voluntary without any salaries. So when I was finishing my school, I used to go there, get a mic and then try to find out what's the problem for women within the society. For example, some of the girls were not allowed to do football. And I was talking to them and I was talking to our teachers that why girls are not allowed to do football. And I was talking to them and I was talking to our teachers that why girls are not allowed to join the football team. And they were saying that it's physically, it's not possible for girls to play football. And I was challenging those small things in the society. So this is how I became a journalist and I put my focus on women's issue. And since then it's got better but then worse again for women's rights.

And you're now a qualified NHS nurse. That's quite a transition in careers, isn't it? Yeah. Can you take us through what brought you from journalism to nursing? So it was quite a long journey since 2007 when I was a journalist, a local journalist in Afghanistan. And then I went to India for my higher education. I studied international law there. And within that time, I was still working with local media in Afghanistan.

And then in 2012, I joined the BBC. And with the BBC Persian, I was a war correspondent from Afghanistan, which I witnessed a lot of war, a lot of explosions, suicide attacks, which really affected me as a person as well. That must have been difficult. And in 2016, when I came to UK, I went to Oxford University to do a research about impact of social media on women's life in Afghanistan and how they are using these social media to try to express themselves and have their own identities.

But in the meanwhile, me as a person, it was really difficult for me to be detached from the people I was reporting and from the ground. And I became a journalist from exile because I was not able to go back to Afghanistan due to the personal threats I received in Afghanistan when I was there. And I was attacked by a man while I was working in Afghanistan in Kabul Street because I was not not wearing a proper job, Aspar, he wanted me to wear. Physically attacked. Physically attacked by a knife. So that was one of the reasons I was, I had to go to India and stay there for six months.

And from there I came to the UK. So all these traumas didn't allow me to go back to the job I wanted to do and I love to do. And then I was surrounded with so many good people. And one of them were a doctor. She's my friend and she's a GP here. And she said, Bahar, you love people very much and you care about them. Why are you not picking another career that you can still provide care for people and be in touch with them, be in contact with them. And she said that nursing is one of those jobs. And I didn't

have the courage and I never thought I can do that. It's a bit different from journalism. Exactly. I applied for a career break from my job, previous job. And I started applying for nursing courses within London. And I got admission in two of the universities. I picked one of them. And then I started studying nursing. And on the first month of my placement in one of the hospitals, when I went there, I realized this is the job I want to do. And you've been an amazing success at it and it's such a fantastic job you're doing

but how now are you reflecting back on what's happening in Afghanistan because obviously there's still women are allowed to be nursing there but there's worries behind it about women coming through and being able to train in that profession further down the line. How do you feel about what's going on in Afghanistan right now? So once you're a journalist, you're always a journalist. When I became a nurse in 2020, when I finished my course and I practically started my career, I still kept my contact with women inside Afghanistan and I was writing about different stories, which was interesting. And what are they telling you? What's happening there now?

So since 2021, when Afghanistan fell under the Taliban, women's life changed drastically inside Afghanistan. They lost everything. The right to education, the right to go out, the right to work. Simply, women are erased from all aspects of social life in Afghanistan. So I was writing stories about their life inside Afghanistan, talking to them for the Thompson Reuters Foundation. And recently in this anniversary of two years of Taliban, and actually I was talking to so many women that what they are doing, for example, some women are the first provider for their families, and they don't have any male member of the family or they're single or they're widows, and now they're jobless. So who's going to

help their family? They say that many of them are shifting towards nursing and midwifery because that's the only thing they can do. And still they're allowed by the Taliban administration to do that. And how much are they allowed to do? How much are they permitted to do since Taliban takeover? So since 2021, the only institute that are operating and open inside Afghanistan is the nursing and midwifery institutes. And women try to fight out their way to get back their jobs or to reopen their schools or universities, but they couldn't. And at the same time, time is passing. So they started rejoining the nursing and midwifery school and getting admission to these ones just to, one, have a career

in this hopeless time, and second, to get out of their houses. For example, when I was writing actually this report for the Thomson Reuters, I was sitting in a cafe in London, and I was talking to one of the midwife students, and I was telling her that I'm sorry if there's so much noise here, I'm sitting in a cafe. And she started crying. She said, I haven't seen a cafe for two years, Bahar. My goodness. So of course, if you're not allowed to work or not allowed to go to the parks or go swimming, you're stuck at home a lot. But what about the people who are training to be nurses? What do they need at the moment? What they need most i know you're organizing some training for them what is it they they need at this moment so we have a basic talk with one of the institutes inside afghanistan in southern afghanistan who are providing training

for nursing and midwifery students i'm trying to find a way to cooperate with these people and find some trainings because I'm trained as a nurse in the UK so it's one of the most advanced countries in the world and we have lots of training on our day-to-day basis of nursing life so these kind of trainings can be regarding for example wound management I was talking to one of the nurses in Herat city, which is west of Afghanistan. And she said since two years, she didn't have any trainings. And they have lots of problem with the equipments, with medication. And one of the things which is coming from Herat hospital, which is a government hospital, the biggest hospital in the city, she was saying, we have shortages of oxygen, which is very essential for patients, especially at A&E.

So the trainings that I'm trying to provide for them is a simple training for nurses, how to keep up with their skills and knowledge. Well, it's an amazing job you're doing. And I know there's still so much to do, so please keep in touch with us about the developments over there. Thank you Baha Joya, freelance writer and women's affair correspondent for Thomson's Reuters Foundation. Thank you very much. Now with me now

in the studio, I have Rose Matafayo and Emma Sidi. Thank you so much for joining us, because their hit BBC Three and HBO rom-com series, Starstruck, is back on our screens with its third season, following main character Jessie and her best friend Kate through their late 20s and early 30s in London. The BAFTA-nominated series has had its first two-season streams on BBC iPlayer more than eight million times. So joining me now are Rose and Emma, who obviously play Jessie and Kate. First of all,

ladies, welcome to the show. I loved series one. I'm loving series three. But what I love about it is the real life scenarios and the fact that relationships aren't black and white. They're complicated. I mean, I'm often screaming at the screen for Jessie and Tom to stop being so complicated. But obviously, that's easy for me to say. But for any listener who hasn't watched it, can you essentially describe it for me? Well, so if you haven't watched Starstruck, the first series, if you're going to jump in there, it's a story about Jesse, my character,

having a sort of unexpected one night stand with a man who turns out to be a movie star. A classic story. Gosh, you know, it happens every Saturday night, doesn't it? And so, follows that sort of relationship and you know, the difficulties of any burgeoning romantic relationship

but particularly with, you know, that sort of added layer of celebrity in that first series. And then the second series kind of explores them sort of being together. Third series is a bit of a time jump so we're all a bit older. Jessie's 33 at the beginning of the series. We're all older, slightly.

I mean, I would say wiser, but, you know, how wise are you at 33? I'm not sure. I'm not 33 yet. So, you know. But yeah, I think it opens up a world of Jessie's world, not just sort of beyond the romantic relationship, but also with her friendship group as well. Because, you know, Emma playing Kate is a huge part of as well so you know and I think one of the important themes in the series is that it's kind of destroying that happy ever after because I think most rom-coms are all about that and in a way you've gone down a different route yeah I think there's something

really nice in series three that you also see what it's like for a friendship group to lose and somebody's become part of the friendship group by being the boyfriend or the partner yeah which is really common in life I can think of so many people that I'm not allowed to speak to anymore because the politics yeah my friends aren't with them and I think it's a really untapped kind of emotional thing in terms of rom-coms you You don't really see that that much. What does it look like for a friendship group to also lose somebody and their allegiances?

So there's also so much comedy in what Rose has written in that series. And we opened the show with Kate and Ian's wedding and it's quite funny, you know, the idea of Kate has invited Tom to their wedding, their friends, because they have created this friendship and it's like, that is so common. I've been in those situations quite often.

And your character just tries to avoid him the whole time. Exactly. Everyone's had to avoid someone at a wedding. But it's not just about that love story. It's about the love story of you two as friends as well, because we see Kate and Jesse set off different paths in this series. And obviously, Kate getting married, having her first child.

And I think that's something a lot of female friendships struggle with. Why did you decide to show that side of things? Well, I mean, I think, well, no, I mean, from a, I guess, writing perspective, I think it was sort of a natural progression, I think, from where they were. We meet them in their mid-20s in the first series. And I think, you know, lots. We meet them in their mid-20s in the first series. And I think, you know, lots of close female friendships go through that. I think it's also nice to approach those changes in life

as you get into your 30s with a bit of compassion in terms of these two characters love each other. And it's never a sticking point. You know, the idea that she's having a baby isn't the sticking point, which I think sometimes often other narratives would explore, going, oh, Jessie feels inadequate because, you know, this person's having a sticking point. You know, the idea that she's having a baby isn't the sticking point, which I think sometimes often other narratives would explore going, oh, Jessie feels like inadequate because, you know, this person's having a baby.

It's not to do with that. It's more that a really intimate relationship is transforming into the next stage of what their intimate friendship is going to be. And that's just a, it's just a bumpy period, isn't it? Yeah. And it's inherently hard to go through. It doesn't mean there's any judgment or grudge there. It just sad like we actually did used to live together Rosemary and when we moved out of the flat it was very upsetting for both of us but we moved out for good reasons you

know yeah it's like that period of your life yeah exactly you have to grieve that and I was moving in with my partner it was all good stuff but we had to grieve it. And I was moving in with my partner. It was all good stuff, but we had to grieve it. Mutually. It's like going through a breakup with someone you're going to be with for the rest of your life. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's quite intense because you know that those friendships, you have friendships in your life that you go,

well, this is going to be a lifetime thing, which doesn't happen. That certainty isn't there with romantic relationships. But it's great this season because it acts to me as like a self-help guide. It actually shows me what you can do because you are actually very close

throughout all those big life hurdles. And I think, Jessie, Rose, your character, Jessie, has definitely matured in this season and you see her romantic relationship grow in confidence and your two relationships grow in maturity. Hugely. Just about.

I mean, there's a really ridiculous argument in this series. But, you know, it rang very true to me. You know, when you're very close to people and female friendships, you have those moments of total breakdown, total communication breakdown. But it's kind of up to you to resolve it because you know how important that is. So I kind of, I love the representation of that in this series.

And also I think it does hint at the fact that as old as they grow up, they're always going to be these absurd children that just love each other. But then you look at 60-year-olds, you look at pensioners, they're still going through the emotional rollercoaster that we all going through it never stops do you know what I mean like if you've got a beating heart those things don't stop but gosh I can't wait to see series 19 exactly your ability to just deal with it gets a little bit more honed I think and what are your

own experiences of going through that time in your life when you're in your 20s to the time in your life when you're in your 30s because obviously time in your life when you're in your 30s? Because obviously I think what some of the themes that are brought up in this is that theory of, well, that feeling of loneliness actually and separation. What were both your experiences of that that you've brought into these characters? I think for me, I think because I have literally, we all have aged with this show, you know,

when I first started the whole process of making it, I was 25 and now you're 31 and so it's and it's not a huge amount of time but I really do think it there's a clarity that you get in this time frame where you understand how important it is to invest in those friendships and relationships outside of romantic content you go you're boy crazy if you know you're into boys you're boy crazy when you're in your 20s and then you go oh actually you know you you figure out hang on other people exist yeah exactly other people and who are the people who've stuck around and you know you go hang on I really should actually be investing time and energy into these really

fulfilling you know friendships and in the world around you and I think that idea of loneliness particularly it's something that I completely share with with Jessie's character and that you're a person in a city that you're not from and you have to build your own life in that sense of who you care about and who you want to surround yourself with so which is great it's not just a love story and I love it for that and Rose you've recently said that you felt guilty about Starstruck being another show portraying that romantic love and you've recently said that you felt guilty about Starstruck being another show portraying that romantic love. And you've also said that you want it, well, hopefully to be that lasting legacy similar to Bridget Jones. I mean, I think of Bridget Jones as a woman who got it completely wrong. So I think you get things a bit better. But what made you want to have that

legacy for this season? I don't know. I mean, I think there is something special about things like Bridget Jones and rom-coms in general because they're they do exist in a genre which feels like I don't know, very timeless and classic like, you know, I love old old films, you know what I mean? And those old films that I love are often, to be

honest, love stories and they're stories that don't necessarily rely heavily on the context or time in which they were made if you can connect with the story enough. And so, honestly, that was for Starstruck, I think, was the thing of, like, will this relate to someone, a 15-year-old girl in, like, 20 or 30 years, because you're exploring things that are just about humanity,

things that aren't going to change, no matter when you make it or watch it. So, yeah, that's what all people really want, I guess. And when I watch Starstruck, you know, sorry, as a viewer who's also in it, I feel like you want to hang out with Jessie. Yeah. Even when she's being annoying and insane and absurd, you're like, God, I would love to have a night out with her.

Well, the same for you. But, well, I think Kate's a little bit more intense than that, but I appreciate that. And I think Bridget Jones has that as well. Oh, yeah. Those women who, yes, they're flawed, but would like to go to the park. But you would like to hang out with them. And I do, I do. And of course you can.

I'm sorry I'm going to have to wrap you both up. But it is, of course, available on BBC iPlayer. So thank you, Rose. Thank you, Emma. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And thank you for everyone who's been involved in today's programme. I'm literally thinking now how I'm going to implement some of those leadership qualities into my life. So thank you so much for getting in touch.

Anita is with you tomorrow. Well, thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour on BBC Sounds. Hello, I'm India Axon and I just want to quickly talk to you about witches. In this series from BBC Radio 4, simply titled Witch, I'm going to explore the meaning of the word today. It is a twisting, turning rabbit warren of a world full of forgotten connections to land and to power, lost graves, stolen words and indelible marks on the world.

Because the story of the witch is actually the story of us all. Come and find out why on Witch with me, India Rackerson. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.