Woman's Hour - Employment Rights Bill, SEND, Neath RFC tweet, Spitfire Girls

Episode Date: March 12, 2025

The government has said it supports bereavement leave for couples who experience a miscarriage before 24 weeks gestation. Business Minister Justin Madders told MPs he "fully accepts" the principle of bereavement leave for pregnancy loss and promised to look at adding the right to the Employment Rights Bill. Nuala discusses the issues with national baby loss campaigner and founder of George’s Law Keeley Lengthorn and the BBC's Employment Correspondent Zoe Conway.A couple of days ago the owner of a Welsh Rugby club put up a social media post to promote an upcoming match against a local rival. He hoped a few thousand people would maybe ‘like’ it and ‘share’ it and some would come along to watch the match. What he didn’t expect was that the post would get more than a quarter of a million views, generate outrage and condemnation and become national news. Accompanying the text was an image of rugby players, with the words, ‘Not For Girls’ stamped across the top. Nuala discusses the idea behind the tweet and the reaction with Matthew Young from Neath Rugby Football Club and the sports broadcaster, Stella Mills, one of the first people to see the post and comment. Yesterday the Education Committee heard evidence from professional membership organisations, charities and young people with lived experience of the special educational needs and disabilities (SEND) system, as part of its inquiry into solving the SEND crisis. One teenager invited to address the committee was 17-year-old Katie. Katie is autistic and was a member of the panel for Woman’s Hour’s SEND: Mums Bridging the Gap programme that was broadcast in September 2024. Katie, her mother Ruth Nellist and Helen Hayes MP, Chair of the SEND Education Committee all join Nuala to discuss the committee’s work so far and the importance of the cross-party MPs who make up the committee hearing the experiences of children and young people with SEND.Have you heard of the ‘Attagirls’? They were pioneering women pilots who flew RAF planes throughout the country during World War Two, and achieved equal pay in 1943, but their work as part of the Air Transport Auxiliary has often been overlooked. A new play ‘Spitfire Girls’ is inspired by the true stories of these women. Nuala speaks to cast members Katherine Senior and Laura Matthews to find out more about what it was like for women pilots and why it’s important to celebrate their stories.Presented by Nuala McGovern Producer: Louise Corley

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And I'm Brian Cox. And we would like to tell you about the new series of the Infinite Monkey Cage. We're going to have a planet off. Jupiter vs. Saturn! It was very well done that because in the script it does say wrestling voice. After all of that, it's going to kind of chill out a bit and talk about ice. And also in this series, we're discussing history of music recording with Brian Eno and looking at nature's shapes.

So listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. Now, you might have seen the outrage over publicity for a men's rugby match in Neath, Wales with the banner, Not For Girls slapped on the front. Well, reaction was swift and fierce. The man at the centre of the storm is Neath Rugby Club owner, that's Matty Young, who created the ad. Now he has apologised profusely.

He says the idea was to shine a light on the casual misogyny that exists in part of rugby. But it backfired spectacularly. Matty hasn't spoken to anyone yet about the fiasco, despite repeated requests for interviews, but he has agreed to come on Woman's Hour, so he'll be with me in about 10 minutes time stay with me for that. Also today we'll hear from 17 year old Katie who gave evidence yesterday to an inquiry working to solve the send crisis. Also with her is her mum and the MP Helen Hayes who's the chair of the Education Committee who launched the inquiry so we'll have a discussion about all of that. Now I know many of you feel passionately about this issue.

You can text the program, the number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 03 700 100 444. Plus, who needs love when there is the ultimate thrill of speed, the sky and the orgasmic experience of piloting the best fighter aircraft in the world? That is a quote attributed to the Atta Girls, female aviators in World War II. You'll hear all about them this hour.

But let us begin with the announcement by the government saying it supports bereavement leave for couples who experience a miscarriage before 24 weeks of gestation. Business Minister Justin Madders told MPs he fully accepts the principle of bereavement leave for pregnancy loss and promised to look at adding the right to the employment rights bill. So I'm joined by lawyer, national baby loss campaigner and founder of George's Law, that's Keely Langthorn. Good morning Keely. Good morning. And also with this is the BBC's employment correspondent Zoe Conway. Good morning Zoe. Good morning.

So fill us in first Zoe a little on what happened in the House of Commons yesterday. Yesterday it was a really significant moment. Justin Madders stood at the dispatch box and said that the government backs the principle of bereavement leave when a baby is lost before 24 weeks. It was a very significant moment. I thought it was equally significant that his shadow in the House of Commons, a Conservative business minister also backs the principle and that's important because this bill is going to go through the House of Lords next and to have that cross party support will really make a difference. Now my understanding from speaking to sources overnight is that that will be written into this legislation, this principle.

But how it actually is going to work in practice, well, let's see what happens in the House of Lords, but I think there are still going to be a lot of details that are up in the air, and some of the detail may not be worked out until after this act is passed. This becomes law, because what a lot of this bill is

going to end up being kind of hammered out in is through secondary legislation, regulations, codes of practice. So we still don't know what that means. Will it be paid and how much leave can people take? Okay, well they're the big questions. They are the big questions. I've spoken to Sarah Owen this morning. She is the Labour MP and Chair of the Women and Equalities Committee and their committee put forward this amendment to the bill calling for this. Now what they would like to see is paid leave. But speaking to Sarah this morning, she's not expecting it to be paid. So it's not necessarily the case that even through secondary legislation, through whatever

regulation gets written, that we'll end up with paid leave leave but I think she still feels this is a very big victory and is very pleased to see that it's got this cross-party backing and I think for her this is about putting down a building block and building and building on it and as she says very few countries offer this So I think it's also I think about creating a kind of social norm isn't it? That once it becomes accepted that this is a right then maybe companies we've already got companies like EDF like TUI who are already offering this that it kind of gathers its own momentum and it doesn't necessarily have to be about legislation. Sarah Owen has been on this program previously and spoke so movingly in

relation to this and her own experiences as well and just to be clear because there is bereavement leave at the moment but that would generally be for after 24 weeks gestation or indeed a baby after the birth and that would be a couple of weeks at this stage? That's correct. What we don't know is whether this leave will end up being a week or two weeks. I think it's unlikely that will be written into the bill. I think that's the bit that will end up being written into Secretary of Legislation after further consultation. Now what some people might be concerned about is when things are not written into a bill then lots of people pile in and start lobbying so then does it get

watered down more and so of course small businesses might have concerns about how this might affect their bottom line. So clearly there is a bit of concern there but speaking to Sarah Owen this morning she's confident that the government is not backsliding on this. Let's bring in Keely who I know you've been nodding along Keely with a lot of what Zoe has said in relation to this and we know campaigning will continue as we're hearing but you have done three years of campaigning and I'm just wondering how you're feeling at this point? Yeah it's been a long three years and we've made so much progress. I think the announcement by the NHS in October last year that they would be offering as the

country's biggest employer, 10 days paid leave for all of their staff was the real starting point in the campaign. I started George's Law in 22 after I lost my son George at 22 and a half weeks. I'm really sorry to hear that. Thank you. George was my third loss having had an early miscarriage and then I had an ectopic pregnancy the year before George was born. And it was only after George died that, well just before George died, that I started the national campaign in terms of the leave because it became apparent to me after my ectopic that there wasn't any leave

available and that there was women going immediately back to work after having these horrendous losses. So if you think about when I lost George in March I had a literally a four day labour with him, I had a baby to bury, I lost him at nearly 23 weeks and the law says that I should be back in work the next day representing parents and children as I do in court. So this is a real pivotal moment actually from the minister's announcement yesterday and it's much, much needed for many families. George's law was proposed to recognise the legislation in New Zealand, which is three days paid leave, but I think the stance taken by Sarah Owens is that it will be two weeks, which is amazing.

Just as you say that, Keely, I understand it was March that it happened. So this is all around three years later. Yeah. So the actual announcement that the government were going to do this came on what would have been George's third birthday last Monday. So to say I'm overwhelmed and it's been a tearful week. Yeah, sure. It's a real understatement. Yeah, we got the announcement at about 6pm on George's birthday. So yeah, it's real big. It's real big for everyone. And like I said, George's law was only proposing three days. So for this to be maybe two weeks is brilliant.

Obviously we still await confirmation that it will be paid and more information will come to light I assume in the next couple of weeks. We obviously need to go through the House of Lords now and my understanding is that the bill will be batted back and forth between the houses and before it gets royal assent which we're told I think is going to be in autumn 26. So of course we've got that gap in between and there is still this need for businesses to be enacting their own baby loss policies, which I've been calling on many businesses in the country and which many businesses have been doing for the last three years. So you've got like ASOS, Channel 4, 2E have all enacted their own policy. And I'm curious as well, and I should say I'm sure lots of your experience will

resonate with Manny, Katie sadly, that if people have been affected by the issues that you're hearing us speak about there is the BBC Action Line with links to help and support on it. But I'm also thinking when you reach out to companies whether they're big or small, what is the resistance that you get to it, if any? The resistance is that we should be taking it as sick leave. And that my answer to that is I my baby died, I wasn't sick. So why should I be taking this as sick leave? And why should I be enacting HR policies for instance

if I go to a new job and they say well why have you taken two weeks sick leave and then I have to explain that actually my baby died. So I think the cost is a real issue to many small businesses but in hindsight and in the long term if businesses do this and do right by employees it's going to do nothing but improve their retention rates going forward. 84844 if you do want to get in touch on this issue or any others that you hear throughout the program. And Achille I'm just wondering what the response has been this week because you've been working for the past few years for yourself, for George, but also for other families.

Yeah the response has been just, I'm completely overwhelmed. The statistics tell us that between 10 and 20% of pregnancies, so one in five pregnancies end in miscarriage, unfortunately. And we're always going to know someone, be it at work or be it at home, who's unfortunately had this loss. And this proposed legislation comes at a time where it will help 250,000 families a year, which is staggering. And we've got to remember that it will help both partners, so men and women as well.

And with those figures, of course, it's because of miscarriage being such a personal and painful issue. It can be very difficult to get the hard stats on exactly how many people are affected. But I know the numbers are huge. Back to you Zoe, so this is one part of it that we've talked about with bereavement leave. What else should we be looking out for in the bill? I think that what is striking about this bill is how many gaps there are actually. I think there are a lot of gaps in this bill. We've got a lot of commitments to things like for example greater flexibility at work but very little detail on what that's going to look like. Is that because they committed to this bill in a hundred days or is it because there's still so much that needs to be consulted on and

concern about how business is feeling about this bill. When I talk about flexibility for example obviously working from home is a big issue for a lot of people with families and we just don't know how the government's commitment for flexibility to be the default position is actually going to work and there is a concern that it's all going to get watered down by campaigners such as pregnant and screwed. The government holds firm that it does want to see greater flexibility but when you look at the bill, at the wording, it's very unclear what that actually means. So I think there's a lot there that we still don't know. When it comes to paternity

leave that the Labour MP Salakriisi is campaigning on, she tabled her own amendment to this bill, it's not clear that that's necessarily going to be adopted either. So I think there's a lot of unknowns, how much is going to end up in secondary legislation, what's actually going to end up being implemented over the next year or so. I think there are a lot of question marks. And NDAs? That was very interesting. So two. Non-disclosure agreements. That's right and so this issue of should you, for example, if you've complained that you've been the victim of sexual harassment, for example, at work, should you then be forced to sign an NDA? Is that appropriate? Are these NDAs being used inappropriately by companies?

And two MPs were talking about that. Now the government has said, Justin Madders said yesterday this is worth looking at, but I'm going to be honest I didn't get the sense from listening to the debate yesterday there was a really a firm commitment there and given the fact that the government is being criticized certainly by the Conservatives and by business for what they consider to be what's becoming almost like a sort of Christmas tree of a bill, I do wonder whether they're really going to take action on that. Back to bereavement leave, when it comes to miscarriage, I've just got a message in that I want to share with Keely and Zoe. I want to share some good practice, says Marie in Wiltshire. I lost a baby at eight weeks at the height of COVID. It

happened when I was already on paid holiday leave. I told my boss, female, who said I would get all my holiday leave back and take whatever sick leave I needed, all paid. There are good employers, but congratulations to all who fought for a change in the law to protect more families and women. So I'll leave you with that one. Keely Langthorn, who has been fighting for it and the BBC's Zoe Conway also bringing us up to date on other details in the bill Thank you both so much Now to rugby a couple of days ago the owner of Neath RFC a Welsh rugby club

Put up a social media post to promote an upcoming match against a local rival Matty Young hoped a few thousand people would see it and would maybe like it or share it and with any luck Some would come along to watch the match What he did not expect was that the post would get more than a quarter of a million views generate outrage and condemnation and become national news and end up with Matty giving us an exclusive interview Excuse me to try and explain his actions to woman's hour interview, excuse me, to try and explain his actions to woman's hour. The Post was promoting the club's new event, which was this match on Friday rather than on a Saturday. And here's what it said, Friday night under lights, no frills, no

apologies, just brutal old-school Friday night rugby at its finest. And it continues, if you crave passion, grit and raw intensity, this is where you belong. The accompanying text was an image of rugby players, men, with the words, wait for it, not for girls stamped across the top. So, Matty Young from Neath Rugby Football Club is with us. Good morning, Matty. Good morning. I will be speaking to you in just a moment,

but I first want to bring in Stella Mills, who's a sports broadcaster and one of the first people to see the post and start commenting. Stella I've read a couple of the lines but explain how you saw that post. Yeah so first of all I want to thank you for having me on and covering this really important issue here. The way I saw it is similar to how many people in the women's rugby community saw it which was straight down the line saw it is similar to how many people in the women's rugby community saw it, which was straight down the line as it is very sexist. The basic gist of the post was effectively saying that women and girls are not welcome in the rugby environment, which is something that we have been working so hard in the sport

to work against. And arguably I would say if you put this post aside, looking at the general landscape, we've actually achieved that to a really good point. So to see this was actually just incredibly disappointing. So it wasn't just one post that I mentioned there. The first one was taken down and then something else went up. Yeah. So something else went up on Twitter around 11.30pm night, which did have hints of chat GPT in terms of the writing and the text. It didn't look like it'd been planned out from my opinion, which then said that it was spinning the camp. It was planned. It was a marketing campaign and it was spinning it on its head.

And it also kind of had an element of gaslighting to it, if I I'm honest with the text at the start saying that we should forget the outrage and it's interesting because the outrage was caused by the original post. It said forget the noise, forget the outrage, let's talk about real change. So many might think was it a marketing gimmick to begin with? Hold your thoughts Stella, let us bring in Mattie. Let's go back Matty to Wednesday early evening. What was going through your mind when you put up that original post, Not For Girls? Originally there was a video campaign to follow it. What happened, there's a lot of communication issues internally and the video campaign got delayed.

Me, ultimately being impulsive, decided to put the post out thinking, okay, you'll get a bit of traction or whatever, and then we put the video out a day later. By the time I got home, there was 250,000 views, I was thinking, what have I done? This is ridiculous. And at that point, the post came down. From that point, my phone just did not stop going off. And it was like, you need to put apology out, you need to put apology out. I had various people talking. And then, yeah, I think between listening to a lot of people saying, you need to say this, you need to say that,

it was completely abort, abort, abort. And a chat UBT apology went out. That went out, as soon as that went out, I was thinking, Oh my God. But with the sort of intention of the campaign, which totally got misconstrued by chat GBT, I think. So chat GBT, sorry, Matthew, to interrupt you. It's AI, it's artificial intelligence for anybody who hasn't used it.

You put it in and it kind of spits out a certain answer. Yeah, yeah. Trying to replace my lack of intelligence in this. So then the next morning I didn't sleep all night and there was a time of reflection. And at that point, you take that post down and I write exactly what's on your mind at this point and then start the process really of listening and learning. So let's even pick this apart a little bit more. You put up the original post.

What were you hoping would happen? You had created some videos or started, should I say, the intention to create videos. I've seen the storyboards. I've seen the illustrations to. Promote, amplify girls and women's rugby. And you wanted that to be inserted at some point within this men's rugby match, Not For Girls. Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah.

Go ahead. But it never got that far with the original, like the Not For Girls part of it. I think people will be wondering why that was slapped on. I won't go through the entire film, but very briefly get to the end quite quickly. So the film that was coming in was storyboarded and the intention of the film was to integrate a junior side, whereas Meath Junior girls side with the sort of Meath brand and then the senior sides and what was going to happen, there was a juxtaposition between the two,

whereas at the end, the junior sides then would ultimately come out, battle the Leith men, senior team, and essentially- Take them down. Oases for girls, and not for boys, or something along those lines at the end. We threw about a few ideas. That was where the sort of payoff was supposed to come from.

I think this initially came from, I was probably talking about this later, this initial concept came from a TED talk that I was listening to called, the problem with women's sports, Hayley Rosen. I'll go into the reason why that was also dumb as well for my part, maybe a bit later. So tell me, you were hoping to, what did you think would happen? I was hoping, I think ultimately, is to integrate within the club the two sort of... The girls and women's, but with that post that people would think would come to the game or be intrigued, not outraged? I think ultimately it was a marketing for the Friday Night Game, but also I wanted to get the two integrated more. So I wanted the senior's team and the Panthers team to come together within the club, maybe the cultures come together.

But didn't think there would be that reaction to the term not for girls? Yeah, well, didn't think. I think is a... And I know you've apologized profusely in the time since Wednesday. I want to go back to Stella. What do you think? Are you ready to accept the apology? I don't think it's up to me. I think I'd actually quite like to take this opportunity, if you don't mind, to speak on live radio directly to the girls that have seen this post. And I want to speak to them and say rugby as a sport is the most inclusive sport. There is literally a room, a bit of room for every single body on that pitch. Now, if you're a young girl and you've seen this post and you're put off from coming to a rugby club, you don't want to go to training, you don't feel like there's a space for

you, rugby is, always will be, for the girls. It just is. I think there is a space for them and I think posts like this shouldn't be detracting from growing the game that we have. But you can hear that Matty's, according to him, as he says, his intention was to amplify girls in rugby, albeit in a ham-fisted way. Yeah, I can understand the intention behind it completely. I think the execution was very poorly thought out. I think not only that, but there were so many opportunities here to stop, listen and learn, and none of them were taken I think it's not on my shoulders to accept the response the apology

I think it's on the shoulders of the girls the young girls who are going to be playing and I understand that Matty, let me go back to you You bought the club for a pound. Have I got that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah to try and bring it out of its struggling economic situation. And I think you create digital videos. That is your livelihood. Yes, my background, part of my background. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you think you've learned or where are you going to go from

here? Because you hear Stella and you hear her, I suppose, reservations about this post, her anger, but even at this point about the execution. I think there's so much to learn, so much. I mean one of the big guests, it wasn't my battle to lead and I think with Stella's book giving an apology to the girls, there's also the really strong women of the club, there's people on the board, there's all over the club who are absolutely an apology to the girls. There's also the, there's a really strong women of the club there's people on the board, there's all over the club who are absolutely so important to the club. And so, you know, their voice is so important as well.

And I think I've got to start with apologies there but it was the, it wasn't me to lead. It wasn't me to make decisions even on bad ones especially bad ones. And I think it was for the girls to lead. And that's one of the things when I go back now as we talk to the girls, they're like, what do you want? What can I do? They can't tell me nothing. Just kidding, you know, and what have you. And that's absolutely right.

And the girls are the Panthers? The Panthers, yeah. Yes, we can give them a shout out here as well. Did you hear from the Panthers? So, yeah, there's a lot of confusion beforehand, because again, my sort of maybe compulsiveness, irresponsibility, it was just, well, let's drive this forward. This is a great idea. I've sent stuff out, not really giving people probably time to get the communication right internally. And I get feedback, you know, which obviously would have been super important.

Sorry, go ahead. Oh, sorry. And yeah, and then I spoke to them that night and they could imagine there was a lot of fury internally there, absolutely rightly so. And at that point, that's when the force was down. Are you committed to staying with the club? I think I've got to for the next two or three months. I think after the next two or three months, I'm more than happy to speak to everyone involved in the club. I think the reason I've got to stay for the next two or three months

is we need to get through this season, you know, financially. When I came in there, my job was to keep a massive asset, a huge asset and a hugely important historic club for the community, inclusive. important historic club for the community, inclusive. But two to three months is quite a short space of time. I mean, is it this debacle that has made you think you don't want to stay with it? It's not so much that. I think it's been a question of whose decision should it be for me to stay there. You know, if I'm making, ultimately I'm leading, I'm leading on areas that some of the stuff I think I've led well on. And there's a lot of stuff that I've read really badly on. And this is something that I've read really, really badly on.

You know, and like I said earlier, an area where I should not be leading on, I really should not be leading on. It should not be my voice, whatever that voice is. So, yeah, so I think it's up to the people within the club really and for me to see if that change happens with myself. You know, Massey, thank you for coming on and speaking to us. I know you've got a lot of interview requests. I'm glad you decided to speak with women's hour. And we shall follow Neath Rugby Football Club and also the Panthers that are within. Stella, last word, I know women's rugby, particularly in Wales, Hannah Jones in the papers this morning, calling for more support really, particularly when it comes to their contracts.

How would you describe women's rugby at the moment? I think it's an exceptional sport that is only going to grow bigger and bigger with the Women's Six Nations and the Rugby World Cup coming up and I think if people are hesitant about it then come and watch a game see what it's about and I guarantee you you'll be hooked for life. Stella Mills sports broadcaster and Mattie Young from Neath Rugby Football Club thanks to both of you so much for coming on. I see a message coming in. Sarah says, I'm currently listening to your piece

about women's rugby. I'm so pleased you're speaking about this. My daughter started playing rugby when I was diagnosed with breast cancer and rugby saved her life. The team has grown and grown, but due to the lack of girls playing, we regularly have to travel long journeys to play,

once over two hours. Her team is for 12 year olds. Her rugby team is now our family and has helped her through starting secondary school. She wants to become a professional rugby player. Well, I hope your daughter Sarah manages to achieve her dream. I want to also just give the statement of the Welsh Rugby Union while I'm here. It's terse. It just says we ask need to remove the post as soon as possible. And of course, do not condone the sentiment. It. I'm Natalia Melman Petruzzella.

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Contained. Let us move on to Sand. your podcasts. Contained. Let us move on to Send. Last September, we broadcast a special edition of Women's Hour from the BBC Radio Theatre. We asked if, asked mums specifically, if the Send system, as it's called in England, is working for children with special educational needs

and disabilities. They told us it is a broken system. Then back in December, the Education Select Committee, a cross-party committee, launched a major new inquiry focused on finding solutions to the CEND crisis. Its focus? How to stabilise the system in the short term and how to achieve sustainability with improved outcomes for children and young people in the long term. The inquiry will examine every phase of CEND children's education and development from the early years through to the age of 25.

It has invited charities, parents, children and young people to give evidence, including 17 year old Katie, one of the Women's Hour SEND programs panel. I'm sure you do remember her if you heard that program. Well, yesterday, Katie took up the invite from the committee and gave evidence in person about her experience of SEND provision. Katie and her mum Ruth are sitting with me here in the studio. We're going to be hearing from them. I also want to let you know that Helen Hayes, chair of the SEND

Education Committee, is also in studio. You're all very welcome. And I just want to say with SEND, I'm calling it SEND as it is in England. In Scotland, the system is known as ASN, Additional Support Needs in Wales, ALN, Additional Learning Needs. And in Northern Ireland, it's the SEND register for Special Educational Needs Register. But Katie, can I begin with you?

You've had a really busy week. So thank you for coming into Women's Hour as you were invited to give evidence. How was it? It was wonderful honestly, it was so empowering and so nice to feel that all the adults in the room were sat listening to the young people for once because the SEND system doesn't do that very well, it doesn't listen to its young people and we're really at the heart of this system and I feel like we're the ones who can help change it for the better.

So as I mentioned the committee says they want to improve the provision as something you know lots about. What are some of your ideas? I think local authorities need to take more accountability of their actions. I mean we see from the number of tribunals that they lose they are not making very good decisions so some more accountability for them would be nice. And then just having the young person's voice be at the heart of all the decisions that are being made around SEND. It's our future, we know the system better than anyone, we've lived through it, so for some of us our whole lives we can help the adults. It's more of a need to work together than fight like the system makes us do currently.

Yes, so to get away from that fight. And I know you think a lot about inclusivity as well within schools. Yes, there's been a big inclusivity push lately and just a lot of questions about whether mainstream can be inclusive. And I don't think it can. It's just too big of an environment. You know, if you've got one teacher to 30 students, there's no way that that one teacher can be adequately meeting the needs of all 30 students. It's just not gonna happen. So you'd like to see perhaps smaller schools?

Yes, smaller classrooms, smaller class sizes, and then teachers having more training, but also being understanding of the child that's actually in front of them and not just doing it completely by the training because each young person is an Individual did you feel you were heard yesterday? Yes, I did and that was a nice change from some of the stuff I usually do sometimes it feels like you're shouting into the void almost and that people are listening

But they're not really hearing you and I think that I was heard yesterday and the other young people were also heard It must be nice to be there with other young people that I was heard yesterday and that the other young people were also heard. It must be nice to be there with other young people. Yeah, there were five of us and I think we could have talked for much longer. There's always so, so much to be said. Everyone had had different experiences but there were some very clear themes and common factors. There's so many more young people who I know could be here sharing their stories.

And I think we just need to listen to them. So I need to get thoughts from both Helen and Ruth. Maybe I'll go to Ruth first, because you've been listening to your daughter. We all heard her at the radio theater and very powerful to hear her testimony. Now, of course, to this committee. What was it like to listen to her and also the others that she mentioned speak? I'm in awe of Katie from the journey she's been on and where she's got to. And I think the five young women who spoke, young people who spoke yesterday,

were all amazing. They spoke so clearly, so calmly about the process they've been through. And I think what didn't come across is the suffering and the pain and the stress that each of them and their families and every other SEND family in this country goes through, you end up broken and you can end up traumatized by trying to fight your way through this impenetrable opaque adversarial system. So to have the inquiry, to have the young people's voices at the heart of it. I'm hoping good things will come from it. Let us turn to the MP Helen Hayes. Where did it come from to decide to have people like Katie speak? Well what we wanted to do, we launched

the inquiry back in December because we know that SEND is the single biggest crisis in our education system and really there's no point doing an inquiry of that nature if you aren't going to put the people who are the most directly affected by the policy area that you're talking about right at the centre of it. And we could have taken evidence from young people with experience of the SEND system in different ways. We could have run private roundtables

or done surveys or that kind of thing. What I really wanted to do was to take that evidence formally in a House of Commons committee room so that it's on the formal parliamentary record forever and so that it's kind of front and centre alongside all of the evidence that we're taking from parents, from local authorities, from government ministers, from everybody else. We wanted the voices of children and young people to be at the centre. Was it stressful, Katie? I mean, I'm just thinking to go into the House of Commons and say what you need to say. No, it wasn't that stressful, but I've been campaigning for a while now, so I think I've

thoroughly gotten rid of my fear of public speaking. Go you. But I think it wasn't though, because we all knew exactly what we were going to say. We know our experiences so well. And it was just a really good thing to have the young people sat around the same table with the adults making the decisions and just showing that we're all equal really and the lived experience is the most important. But what about what Ruth brought up, Helen, that the trauma that Katie and others and their loved ones of course have gone through, that perhaps I think Ruth is concerned that

maybe those listening won't understand the depth of that? I think it's very hard to understand the depth of what families go through battling for the support that their young people need, what was go through battling for the support that their young people need. What was very, very striking in the evidence that we had yesterday, I have to say Katie, and the four other young people who came to give evidence to us were extraordinary. They spoke so clearly and about a whole range of very, very complicated issues. One of the things that was most striking for me is that three of those five young people talked about having been hospitalized as a consequence, not because of their additional needs, but as a consequence of

what they'd been through being unsupported in regards to our education system. Back in December, Helen, you said that you don't believe it's realistic to say transformative change can happen very quickly. How is the government getting on? Well the government has made a good start with some initial measures. So we have the Children's Well-being in Schools Bill going through Parliament at the moment. There are some measures within that bill that will make the planning of centre provision much more straightforward for local authorities. So at the moment we have a system, we've had a system for the last 14 years or so in which local

authorities have the statutory responsibility for providing for the needs of every child with a send need, but they have had very little ability to deliver new specialist places or new places in mainstream state schools. That has been done through the Free Schools and Academies programme. The Children's Well-being and Schools Bill is putting local authorities back at the centre of place planning, both for specialist provision and for mainstream schools.

That will alleviate some of the problems. But there is a need for much more change. And some of that change is very urgent. So we talk about the experiences of young people which are at the center of all of this Sitting behind a lot of the failures is an enormous financial crisis in the send system Local authorities that have huge deficits in their budgets I think staff in local authorities who go to work every day knowing that they can't possibly meet the needs that are in front

Of them and so we need to think about both of those things working together how we get to a system that delivers much much better for children and is able to meet their needs but which is also a financially sustainable system that can deliver. Because let's talk about the injection of cash I'll just read a little bit of the statement from the Department for Education. The system we've inherited has been failing to meet the needs of children and families for far too long with the lack of early intervention and support in mainstream schools, an unsustainable strain on local government finances. Through our plan for change

that you mentioned Helen, we are determined to improve inclusivity and expertise in mainstream schools. Katie might have an issue with that. Making sure special schools cater to children with the most complex needs and restoring parents trusts that their child will get the right support. We're already making progress by investing 1 billion pounds more into SEND next year alongside 740 million pounds to create more specialist places in mainstream schools as we pave the way for significant long-term reform. But we know that the local authorities for example are already massively in debt. What do numbers like that really mean in a

tangible way? Well the additional billion pounds is very welcome but it is only a third of the current in-year deficit. So that gives you a better idea. That gives you an idea of the scale of the challenge that there is with the finances that underpin the SEND system at the moment and the challenge that there is with the finances that underpin the SEND system at the moment. And the government is placing an emphasis on inclusivity of mainstream schools. And that's a good place to start. I think it is certainly the case that mainstream schools can be much more inclusive than they

are, than many of them are currently. But what we're hearing evidence from as a committee is that the government really needs to define what a mainstream inclusive school is. What does it mean by inclusivity and how can schools be held to account for that inclusivity? So what should parents be able to expect from a school that calls itself an inclusive school? What is the range of expertise that should be available in that school? How should children be supported, what does that mean for curriculum, what does that mean for the design of those school buildings. Unless there's accountability and clarity, it's really hard to see how the trust and confidence of parents, which we know is absolutely broken, will be

restored. And there's a lot of issues actually that you mentioned there. We do keep speaking about schools when it comes to SEND, but I wonder is there too much focus on the schools? Katie, what do you think? Well schools are definitely an important part of what needs to change because right now mainstream schools just don't have the resources to be flexible enough to meet the needs for all of their pupils. But looking at how the system operates outside of schools, the local authorities again do have a big role to play and they need to take some accountability for their failures and actions. And then working with the health

service as well, for mental health, CAMHS needs to work a lot better with the local authorities and if the child is going to school they need to be more communicative with the school. So all the systems just need to really work together to ensure that the child is given the best chance at life. That's interesting so yeah it's not just one siloed piece it's how they interact with one another. There was a leak, I mentioned in the Guardian that there's going to be a white paper on send very soon from the Government. If that is, I don't know what very soon means, but if that is the case, wouldn't it pre-empt the results of the inquiry that your committee is trying to create?

So we are working to slightly different time scales. So what we would always hope as a committee is that the government takes full account of the work that the committee is doing. If the government, we also understand that the government is feeling a lot of urgency and pressure on this issue at the moment. If the government chooses to announce policy developments, my committee will then take an interest

in scrutinizing those policy developments as part of our inquiry. So we can be a little bit nimble as a committee if the government comes forward with an announcement in the short term. I have to say as the committee chair, I have no information that they are going to do that imminently. And you would imagine or you would hope that they would consult you? We would hope so. What is your time scale? So we want to do this piece of work properly. We've had three evidence sessions so far, oral evidence sessions so far. We've got a number of oral evidence sessions still

to go, so we haven't put a deadline on when we will publish a report. We want to do this work as thoroughly as possible because we think that that kind of real thorough comprehensive work is what's been lacking in this debate for a number of years now and we see a role for the committee in Contributing to that but what are we talking months? I think we'll be a Couple more months at least yeah, and then for implementation of anything that may Be decided so that's going to take years, right? And then for implementation of anything that may be decided? So that's going to take years, right? So as a committee, we make recommendations to the government

and the government is obliged to respond to our recommendations, but not necessarily to agree with all of them and to implement all of them. So our report will be a significant intervention in this debate. We are working as hard as we can to be able to make recommendations that will carry weight with the government and that will be based on evidence and implementable recommendations. We hope the government will take that seriously but we'll be then keeping our eye on what happens going forward. Do you see anything in what you have seen and heard so far from Katie or be it other members. I understand that the sessions are very well attended

That could be implemented immediately anything that would alleviate the trauma that Ruth has described so one of the things which the government is also talking about is increasing the knowledge of everybody working in in teaching both both teachers and support staff, of additional needs and neurodiversity. That's an area that's really lacking at the moment. Teachers get just such a tiny amount of training, and it only happens kind of once in their career

at the very, very beginning of their teaching career. So that is something that I know from my own children's experience at school with their friends who had additional needs, the difference that a well-informed class teacher who properly understands neurodiversity and the needs of children with SEND can make to a child's experience in the classroom, boosting that expertise would be a really significant intervention. And you know, it'd be interesting to hear from teachers as well, because I know they feel under incredible pressure and working so hard to try and do the best that they can as well.

And Ruth nodding along, of course, with that. Katie, just in my last minute or so, we're getting to know you better. We met you at the radio theatre and I'm just wondering, let's see, that was last September. So we're six months on. How has it been over the past six months, just having the focus and, you know, so much attention, I suppose, on the issue you want to campaign on? It doesn't feel like six months.

It's gone by very quickly for me. I've been doing a lot of campaign work with my local authority, my county council. And I'm glad that there is such a national focus on SED now, like governments talking about it, different parties are talking about it, and I think we need to keep that focus going because the issue is not going away anytime soon and we need to make sure we're preventing more young people ending up in positions like I'm in and other people are in. We don't want the next generation of SEND young people to have to pay for lots more PTSD therapy. Because I think this is the thing, Katie, the work you're doing, it's because you're 17 and we talk

about potentially to 25, but you know a lot of these policies may not be implemented to help you in time. I think you're really doing it for the next generation. Yeah, I kind of have reached a point where there's not much you can do for me anymore. What's happened has happened. I'm going to move on. I'm going to live my life. But there's a real opportunity to make sure that the next generation do not have to face the same struggles and then they get better resources to live their lives as themselves, learning about what they want to learn about and making sure that they can go out into the world in the best way possible with the best preparation.

Well thank you so much for coming back. I think we'll see you again hopefully before two long 17 year old Katie, you might remember her from one of our previous SEND programmes. Also with her is her mum Ruth Nellis and the MP Helen Hayes who's chair of the SEND Education Committee. Thanks very much for continuing the conversation that we will continue to have as well right here on Women's Hour. Some of your messages coming in on rugby. Shout out for Rice Slip Women's Rugby. My daughter was the only girl in the boys team until 11. The boys respected her skills and teammanship. They voted her as captain and she would often win player of the match. When Rice Slip Women's team was eventually formed many of the women joined and no one is

turned away. The friendships that have been made through rugby and the support they afford to each other are remarkable. Julie message to say my daughter plays rugby for Edenbridge in Kent and thoroughly enjoys it. More power to girls in rugby and one more let me see Susie says I take my five-year-old grandson to rugby training on Sunday mornings and it's a mix of girls and boys. The girls are awesome, they love the activity as much as the boys. It's teaching them teamwork, healthy activity and they all have so much fun. Keep them coming, 8-4, 8-4-4 if you'd like to get in touch. Now, this year the UK will commemorate the 80th anniversary of Victory in Europe,

VE Day, with four days of celebrations going from the 5th of May to the 8th. The events will include a military procession, a flypast, concerts, a special service at Westminster Abbey. And you might know, particularly if you're a regular listener to Women's Hour, about the role that women played in war work during World War Two. Mechanics, munitions workers, air raid wardens in the women's land army among other roles but have you heard of the Attigirls? A new play Spitfire Girls is putting a spotlight on the Attigirls, the women who played this key part in the war by flying some of

the most famous World War II aircrafts but they haven't always been given credit for it. The show opens in 10 days time, but we do have cast members Catherine Senior and Laura Matthews just taking a break from the rehearsals. I can see them to come and join us on the program today. You're both very welcome. Let me start with you, Catherine, as playwright. Give us a little bit more of a history of the Spitfire Girls. I have to say a read, a loved reading about these young women.

Yeah, I mean they were incredible. They basically had a job of delivering aircrafts between factories, maintenance facilities and airfields all across the country. They joined the ATA was a civilian organisation connected to the RAF and it wasn't just women, they started with men because they, when they ran out of sort of healthy young men, that was when they called on the women. house of sort of healthy young men. That was when they called on the women. And I loved some of the specifics over five foot five, what between 20 and 28 single. Yeah, fully mobile. Oh yeah. Fully mobile. That was the other one. Laura, what about this? I mean, some of the most famous planes they got to fly, right? Yeah, so when it first started there were eight female pilots that were inducted and they they were already pilots

So they already had experience But as the demand for the aircraft being moved around increased they Started to put ads out for people that had never had any experience So you had women having sort of four to six months training, usually on a tiger moth, and then once they sort of proved themselves, they, yeah, they moved up the ranks and ended up flying hurricanes, spitfires, sort of incredible really. It really is, and although they're not combat missions, Catherine you were saying, they were still dangerous Catherine. Yeah it was and where the play is set, it's set in Hamble which is near Southampton which is on the Solent which was especially difficult because the biggest threat

they had was the weather because the pilots had to fly without any sort of means of navigation or radio. And so they had something called an on-flight computer, which was, you know, it's like a sort of slip, it's like a bit of cardboard, which you would sort of wear, not a computer that we would know today. A piece of cardboard, yeah, I mean there was one part I was reading that they used to lean out, a look out and see if they could figure out where they were. They'd use train tracks. They'd use rivers. They'd spy cities just to sort of try and work out where they were,

having already pre-planned their route using a paper map. But they just kept in their boots down the side. I like the idea of them maybe stuck in their bra. But, you know, I read this quote at the beginning. I'll read it again. One of the women said, Who needs love when there is the ultimate trail of speed, the sky and the orgasmic experience of piloting the best fighter aircraft in the world. They, some of them must have loved this job. some of them must have loved this job. Oh gosh, I think they all loved the job. I think that it had its risks and it was dangerous but what an adventure, what an opportunity that women had not been afforded before. So I think that they really, yeah, they grabbed it with both hands. And not only that did they grab

with both hands, Catherine, but also they grabbed equal pay back in 1943. Yeah, yeah, it's, you wouldn't believe it, would you? I think I was looking at the, what, you know, I suppose the most well known was the, you know, the Maiden Dagenham film. They made a film about it, didn't they? And that was 1968, I believe. So it was long before then and whether, you know, whether there's any sort of record of anything before that, I don't know. But so they, so Pauline Gower was the, she spearheaded the female section of the ATA, she brought the first eight pilots in. And yeah, her father, she did have connections with government. So she was able to take it to Parliament. Yeah, to took it to Parliament. She got them equal pay, equal conditions, because before that, they, they were not,

you know, they didn't get the same digs. They were just not, not the same. Is it funny? Because, of course, they really needed these women at this point as well. So maybe that was their bargaining chip. I know you're still in rehearsals, as I mentioned, opening in a couple of weeks, but I want to just play a little clip on the programme from the show. Oh, Beth, it was incredible. I've never known anything like it.

The power of the thing. It's almost like flying yourself. How a bird feels. It's built for us, isn't it? Built for women, everything in the right place. Heaven, utter heaven. I heard you broke a mosquito yesterday. I didn't break it. No, no. Not completely.

I'm sure they can still use it for ice cream deliveries. It's just a tire, they can fix a bloody tire. Did you hear what Mary took out? The Wellington. They didn't believe her, you know. Who? The ground crew. What?

They didn't believe she flew it. She said she got out and they all climbed in, all the men, and they were looking around, searching... For what? For the pilot. For the man! Good Lord. I suppose they thought her tiny, tiny hands

couldn't quite reach the controls. Won't ever change, will it? The men will always be searching the cockpits for, well, dot. You're very naughty. The Spitfire. I've flown the Spit. Flown the Spit. Dot and Bet we hear about there. Love listening in, eavesdropping on that conversation played by you both. But what about the Mary that we hear mentioned in there, Catherine?

Yeah, so that's Mary Ellis. That's a true story. I met Mary Ellis back in 2017. It's been quite a long process, this. And yeah, she told me about that story. I think it was a story that she told quite often. She was one of the first, I think she joined in the early part of the war, and she was based at Hambal.

I also want to read this quote, because not everybody was as thrilled with the women being in the sky as those particular women were. Here's a quote from 1940. The menace is the woman who thinks that she ought to be flying a high speed bomber when she really has not the intelligence to scrub the floor off a hospital properly. Laura. Oh, I know it's depressing, isn't it? I think that from, for what I understand, they actually did earn the respect of fellow pilots, male and female,

but it was the, some members of the general public, especially women, that really struggled to comprehend that women were handling the flying machines, as they like to say. Yeah, not much is... Well, you know, I have noticed myself when on an airplane there are so many more female pilots now, even than there was, I don't know, 20 years ago, for example. But I'm wondering whether either of you now, after playing these roles, are tempted to go in a light aircraft. Oh my gosh, it scares me more than anything. I mean, I think both of us were lucky enough to sort of sit in, I sat in a Spitfire and you sat in a Tiger Moth. And even just sitting in it and using the controls, thinking of

taking up the air, it's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Hasn't instilled some sort of passion to take up and get a pilot's license? It's instilled huge respect. We can use our imagination. still huge respect. We can use our imagination. Well I want to let people know that you can see Catherine Senior and Laura Matthews in Spitfire Girls opening at the Master Mayflower Studios that's in Southampton, apt on the 20th of March and then will be on tour across the UK until the end of May. Thank you so much for joining me. I just want to read a message from Praga who said she feels emotional listening about pregnancy

bereavement leave, which we began the programme with. When I had a very early loss, I was expected to teach the next morning and when I couldn't, disciplinary action was brought against me. Paid leave will be an amazing recognition for so many, but specificity is needed. Thanks for all your messages today. Do join Woman's Hour tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Helena Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4,

I'm back with a brand new series of history's secret heroes. And he tells her that she will be sent to France as a secret agent, she will work undercover, and if she is caught, she's going to be shot. Join me for more stories of unsung heroes, acts of resistance, deception, and courage from World War II. Subscribe to History's Secret Heroes on BBC Sounds. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella,

and from the BBC, this is Extreme, Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks it will take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.