Woman's Hour - Endurance runner Imo Boddy, love bombing, fake food artist

Episode Date: May 22, 2024

The endurance runner Imo Boddy has smashed the 45-year-old world record and become the fastest known woman to complete the UK Three Peaks. She joins Nuala McGovern live on the programme.Do you know what love bombing is? One of our Woman’s Hour listeners Lynn got in touch to say it’s something we should be discussing. She joins Nuala alongside relationship therapist Simone Bose to explain more about what love bombing is, and how we can all look out for the warning signs.Nuala is joined by the artist Kerry Samantha Boyes whose work you may have seen in the Barbie Movie, or the Lord of the Rings. Kerry makes fake food for a living and her studio, The Fake Food Workshop, will be one of 104 studios open to the public for the Spring Fling art event, which takes place across Dumfries and Galloway this weekend.Some of Britain’s most vulnerable children are being detained and having their freedoms restricted under court orders known as “deprivation of liberty”. The most senior family court judge for England and Wales has called the growing use of the order a “crisis”. The BBC’s Ashley John-Baptiste has heard from young people who have spent parts of their childhood under these orders. Plus, social worker Beverly Bennett-Jones joins Nuala. The Japanese Royal Family is one of the oldest in the world, the same dynasty has ruled for more than 2,500 years. But the current law means that only a male heir can inherit the Chrysanthemum throne and become the Emperor. This has caused a succession crisis in recent years as the Royal Family kept having girls. The BBC’s Tokyo Correspondent Shaimaa Khalil joins Nuala. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, it's a grey and rainy day in most parts of the UK, but we're about to bring you a dose of motivation in the shape of Imo Boddy, who has just broken the women's world record for climbing and running 700 kilometres between the UK's three highest peaks. Think of it this way, she's completed 16 marathons in a little over six days. Also today, a listener suggested we explore

how love bombing can be a red flag in relationships. So love bombing is what happens when a person gives you an excessive amount of attention, love and adulation very early in the relationship. But it can be a problem. It's something our listener Lynn Beattie experienced. She'll tell us her story. We'll also speak to a therapist. If it's something that resonates with you and we will go further into exactly what it is, but if those first few lines you are thinking, yeah, I know what she's talking about, you can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website.

For WhatsApp or a voice note, that number is 03700 100 444. We'll also hear today why some of Britain's most vulnerable children are being detained and having their freedoms restricted under court orders known as deprivation of liberty, plus the woman who found fame making fake food. Let us begin with this remarkable feat of endurance. My first guest might be forgiven for having a lie-in this morning or maybe another ice bath, I don't know. Instead, she's here with us, a 24-year-old ultra runner. Image and body, Imo, has just become the fastest woman

to complete the Three Peaks Challenge. So, summiting the three highest peaks in Scotland, England and Wales, Ben Nevis, Scarfell Pike and Snowdon, and she completed it in six hours, six days, five hours and 43 minutes. And she also managed to shave 18 hours off the women's record. Imo, you're so welcome. How are you feeling this morning? Thank you for having me. I am exhausted, I won't lie. Yeah, I'm absolutely exhausted. But it was, yeah, it was incredible. Six days off my hand, my whole entire life.

So let's talk about that. I mentioned some of the figures there, 700 kilometres. Talk us through what is needed to do something like that when you're setting out? I think nothing can prepare you for what I went through. I think I trained unbelievably hard. I have an amazing coach, an amazing support team, but I've never dug deep so many times in my whole entire life. So I think it was just great determination throughout. And what was it? I mean, what was the motivation? Why did you want to do this? I was having a look

at some of the people that have done it before and the record that you broke, I think it was from 1979, which is the previous woman that held it. But you have ran, I understand, from the top of the island right down to the bottom. But what about these three peaks? What is it that attracted you? Yeah, so I ran the UK two years ago. I think I ran 60K a day of 22 days then. And it was brutal, but it didn't really compare. And I think I kind of finished it and was like, I need to do something that's going to push me to my limit

and see what I can do. And three peaks just kind of drew me. And yeah, it was that certainly pushed me to my limit. And Joggle seems like a bit of a holiday in comparison to the three peaks. I love that, thinking it's a holiday to run the length of the UK. But what is it particularly that's most challenging? I would imagine it is something mental as well as physical. Just talk us through those moments, what they are and also what you do to get out of them.

I think this time round, it was the lack of sleep. I think I probably had about 16 hours sleep in the whole of those six days. So that was it. And then the heat this time around, we had unbearable heat. I love the sun. And I know as British people, we always complained about the weather. But yeah, this time around, the heat definitely was the killer for me.

But with that 16 hour sleep, so I want to know, you get up in the morning, if that's the way it works, and then you run or summit, where do you take your sleep? What are you eating? summit where do you take your sleep what are you eating who's with you so for the first four days we had a routine where we started um we started to say at 7 a.m last wednesday um and we kind of yeah the first four days we kind of ran for between 16 and 18 hours and then kind of stopped slept ish and then continued and then the last

just before I finished we had a 31 hour stint with um we had three breaks um of an hour sleep literally a power nap and my coach would wake me up thinking we'll have nightmares forever now but thinking he's gonna whip out to wake me up again um he'd wake me up and then we'd just kind of get back on the road and, yeah, plot on. So we kind of broke it up in different ways. And you're a young woman, but what does the body feel like when you're woken at that time to get going again?

It's funny. I think when you're in it, you're in it. I think even for my crew that they weren't running, but they were supporting, even there, they just kind of when you're in the when you're in when you're in it you're in it um I think even for my crew that they weren't running but they were supporting even there they just kind of you're in it so you just kind of you're in that routine of just autopilot um and just yeah so I feel like I never actually slept like with the deep sleep so I didn't really wake up gory I just kind of yeah so I don't know it was just. I was looking at your Instagram and I love it because, you know, there's like you set out a challenge

and then the next post is you've done it, whether it's running the length of the UK or indeed with this particular one with the three pigs. But there was one picture I found very moving and it was a huddle. And I believe it was you and your family. And I'm wondering what it must be like when you've obviously got this support system to get you where you are, when you and your family. And I'm wondering what it must be like when you've obviously got this support system

to get you where you are when you manage to finish. Yeah, I think, I mean, it was pretty emotional for all of us, I think, throughout. I think even my kind of extended support crew, not just my parents, they became a family

and we all kind of are a big family now. I think, yeah, I mean, my coach, logistics kind of are a big family now I think yeah I mean my coach logistics kind of sideman as such he was by my side throughout the whole thing um my boyfriend photographer and a photographer geographer we had a physio and my friend Hannah who did the kind of PR and then my family we were all a kind of yeah massive massive team so I think it's been pretty emotional for all of us to be honest um. And yeah, we had a big bubble. What does the coach say to you when, I mean, do you have those moments of, I can't do this anymore?

Yeah, there was the most poignant moment, which happened probably not even 24 hours ago. I was sat on the road in the middle of the night and all I wanted to do was get in the camper van. And Chris was like just have a nap on the floor for 10 minutes then we'll go again and I was like I'm not sleeping on the road um and anyway I said I'm not doing this for you I'm not doing this for me I'm doing this for you and I continued walking for 5k and then I was rewarded with a two-hour nap before we went again so um and it. I can tell you are, because I'm looking at you on a video screen,

that you're kind of going back to that moment of sitting on that road. Yeah, it was pretty dark, but I trusted him and yeah, kept walking, running and we did. He must be so proud of you. I hope so. I mean, I'm proud of him as well.

It was definitely a team effort from proud of you. I hope so. I mean, I'm proud of him as well. It's definitely been a team effort from all of us. Couldn't do it without anyone else. Couldn't do it without any of them. Yeah. And with those emotions, how do you keep them in check when you're running? I'm just wondering, or maybe you don't have to. Maybe you can let the tears flow or shout or whatever you need to do when you're running. Because it must be a roller coaster. I'm thinking of the peaks of these mountains that you've gone up and down,

but also with the emotional roller coaster. Yeah, I think I just let them out. Yeah. I think even, I mean, I've cried. There were so many sort of strangers that supported as well. And one lady came out and about two hours later, her friend came out and apparently her friend had said to her friend she was like I made Imo cry I feel so bad

I was like no you didn't make me cry it's just that it's just the emotion it's just um everything that's going on so I think yeah I just yeah you just have to allow it allow it you have a big smile on your face today how are you feeling how are you feeling physically you know uh I've got a few kind of injuries well not injuries it's just swelling it's just from time you have a big smile on your face today. How are you feeling? How are you feeling physically, you know? I've got a few kind of injuries. Well, not injuries, it's just swelling. It's just from time on feet. But I'm pretty exhausted. But nothing sort of, nothing that's sort of major as such injury.

Just a pretty tired body and a tired mind. And yeah. Did you get to celebrate at all? Ish. My grandparents came up as well and auntie and yeah. Did you get to celebrate at all? Ish. My grandparents came up as well and auntie and uncles. So yeah, we all had team supper last night and we're heading back home today.

So hopefully we'll celebrate. I probably need to process it all first and we'll celebrate. Yeah, we're helping you do that right here. We're so happy to have you. But I have a feeling, the little that we have chatted this morning but hearing about the UK running the length of it then the three peaks that you probably

have some other goal challenge up your sleeve um not for now I've said to my coach take the time off and then I want to see where I can go with the slightly shorter distances still ultra but hopefully try and represent GB in a distance and we'll see where I can go with that not going to do another

not going to do another world record FKT for a long time FKT which is fast as known time exactly yes

I love that shorter distances but still ultra. Exactly, exactly. But yeah, that's the goal and just take some time just to process it because, yeah, it's been pretty heavy. Where did it start? Just as we talk about that, where did the love of ultra running start? The love of it started, well, I've always been sporty I've always loved sport um but for my seven marathons in seven days in 2021 I think was my first and then

joggle was kind of um in 2022 was kind of yeah I think I've got a very amazing relationship with my coach it also helps and I think having someone that supports you and then family and I think it's just kind of grown from there but yeah the past two years has been pretty intense and I hope I can keep going and see where I can go with it Are you extreme in all areas of your life? No

I try and have a balance I try and have a balance running is definitely the extremist. Well, I want to thank you so much for spending some time with us this morning and also congratulate you

heartily. That is Imo, image and body. You'll find her also on Instagram. She completed the Three Peaks Challenge. No mean feat.

And she did it in six days, five hours and 43 minutes. Thanks so much. Lovely speaking to you. Next on Woman's Hour, I want to turn to love bombing. Now lots of you have got in touch

with me about this this morning. Keep your comments coming and I'll read some of them. Lynn Beatty, also known as Mrs. Mummy Penny, an online blog account she runs, messaged us on Instagram to say that we should discuss love bombing. So this is a term used when one partner bombards the other with love and putting that in inverted commas, sometimes to the point of abuse. So it could be in the form of excessive gifts or expressions of love, but it can lead to manipulation and control. Lynn joins me in the Woman's Hour studio along with Simone

Bowes who is a relationship therapist who works with the organisation Relate on these kinds of issues. Welcome to you both. Hi. Thank you for having me. And I could see you were kind of cheering Emma along as well as you were watching her on the screen with me. Amazing woman. Isn't it something? So inspired.

Exactly. She's getting us motivated this morning, you know, she can do that over six days I think we can get going this morning. But let me come to you Lynne, you wanted us to feature this because of your own experience can you tell us about that? So, to keep it brief, so I

met a guy on a dating app so I got divorced four years ago, I've been on dating apps for about three years struggling with it hugely I'm sure a lot of listeners will resonate with that um thought I'd found a decent man um in January um of this year of this year um and he proceeded to massively love bomb me for several weeks. Now, I'm a very strong, independent woman. I run my own business. Like, I have three kids.

I'm a single mum with my own house. But he still managed to wheedle his way in. Can you describe it? What was it? So there was a lot of focus and attention. So the first date was very over the top. There was a cappuccino waiting for me on the bar as I walked into the pub. It was a lunchtime date, so very innocent.

That was on a Wednesday. Saw him again on the Friday, went out for an expensive dinner. Saw him again on the Saturday for a day raid. This is all week one. This is all week one. Saw him again on the sunday um and within the first few days he was saying things like get this um so i'm really into like the moon and the cycles of the moon so it was a full moon the night we went out for our first date and he was like it's a full moon that's a sign that we are for each other and because he knew that was something I was really

into it was it was those mad you know they've got magic words and I think underneath it all if I peel it back um I am quite a vulnerable person I mean I got divorced like yes four years ago um and yeah I think he worked that out pretty quickly and and and it sort of went on from their gifts all the time um he would just come to my house every day and we'd sort of sit in his car and have a chat how long do you think it was until you realized red flag um so I didn't realize until he withdrew the affection. So after about six weeks, massive change in behaviour, the constant messaging stopped,

the constant seeing each other stopped. And he literally went to nothing. But he carried on sort of breadcrumbing me, which just to explain what that is, is just a little message every couple of days, like a good morning message. So, you know, it'd be there when I woke up, just to keep me sort of hooked and then after two weeks of that very different behavior and talking to

my friends and actually talking to men guy friends I was like right I'm not having this anymore um tried to call him didn't pick up the phone so then he sent me this very bizarre message saying um I my ex has got back in touch i don't know whether i should stay with you or be with her so i literally just replied back to him and said a swear word and then block delete move on so you in a way were cognizant of this pattern of behavior but let me come over just a moment i mean I kind of gave a couple lines there and how I was describing love bombing how would you describe it I think it is a tactic to manipulate to get someone very quickly attached to you and dependent and reliant on you very quickly and it's usually to do with that person wanting immediate validation and to also gain some control so that you are

basically able to manipulate mold that person and get close very very quickly but it's all about that person the person who's love bombing getting that validation it's about them it's not really about the other person it's it's about them and actually you'll notice that they don't really they're not actually that interested in developing an intimate relationship in terms of emotional connection like taking it slow you'll notice it's very uh sort of passionate like a fairy tale, like over the top. You feel almost overwhelmed, like you're bombarded. And you can't actually believe that, you know, if you're in a place where you're not feeling very good about yourself

or you've been on these dating apps or dating and you've, you know, been ghosted after one or two, you know, chats or whatever, and then suddenly this person comes, you are going to be so much more susceptible to somebody that's really paying your attention and saying, do you know, you are going to be so much more susceptible to somebody that's really paying your attention and saying, do you know, you're really special. You're like, so you're the most beautiful. Like I really connect with you.

You know, you are, I feel like you could be the one and they're doing that really early on. That is quite worrying. But yeah. Just as both of you have been speaking, a number of messages have come in, 84844 if you want to get in touch. Let me read a couple of them and we can pick up on the points.

Great that you're covering the dark side of love bombing. I've always instinctively recoiled from romantic gestures, which many men seem to think will cause a woman to swoon into their arms. Red roses have always been a red flag to me. You gave me red roses. Did he? Gave me a dozen red roses on Valentine's Day. Here's another one. Love bombing was a huge feature of the early stages of a relationship I had,

not long after my long-term partner died unexpectedly. I was vulnerable and very susceptible to this kind of behaviour at the time. He was 10 years younger and turned out to have a narcissistic personality disorder and exploiting women was his way of surviving. Be very wary of men who do this. It very quickly changes into controlling and exploiting you, and ultimately undermining your self-worth. But we talk about these things, but can't romantic gestures,

even if they're ridiculous or over the top, just sometimes be just that? I would say if it's, you know, a little bit further down the line, yes. But if it's not in relation to the amount of time that someone's known you, like you're doing that in like the first week or first two weeks, that is a sign because they don't really know you. You've got to actually think, what do they actually know about me? That they're doing this big gesture of i don't know taking me on holiday or taking me away it's not in proportion to the time that you've known someone and when i was thinking about this this morning though there is kind of that narrative

with love bombing often within i don't know romance novels or romantic films or absolutely fairy tale yeah it is the fairy tale like i to be taken to a day rave on day date three i was like this was quite the week this is the it was the one of the most amazing days of my life like i love to dance and and when we were there i think the L word was actually mentioned on date three. Big no, no. I know. But why couldn't I see it? Why did everything shut down?

Like, I'm such a strong woman. Why did I fall for it? They do. I mean, they do it very cleverly. I think it can happen to almost anyone. But I think you were particularly in a vulnerable place. And I think he took advantage of that and he mirrored it's not necessarily always even about like doing the gifts and stuff he tapped into you yeah like didn't he it was like the moon like somehow he

he knew something like that and he and he was really getting into your psyche to go gosh this person really knows me and gets me and And it's that emotional aspect as well. But I do think there is that thing about our ideas of romance and what we're presented and what we grow up learning about. Yeah, and I think movies and TV shows have a lot to answer for in that sense. It's not realistic. So 84844, if people want to get in touch. I'm seeing one here. I'm just coming out of a relationship with a covert narcissist.

They leave you anxious, feeling unworthy, not trusting yourself. But there is hope. Get rid of them and believe in your family and friends who will heal you. Oh my gosh.

My friends. I love my friends. And one of my very close friends, Deb's got to shout her out. She was telling me about the red flags from day one. She was... What has she got some kind of super sensor she's a she's an empath she's an amazing person and and from day one she was like

this is too much you are seeing him too much he's saying the wrong things and i was like oh it'll be fine i'm sure it's all real i just again was blinkered to advice from a close friend but some of the points that particularly the last uher raised there about get out, because they're talking about stage, I don't know, two, three, four. You're talking about stage one, really, Lynne, what you saw. And then he pulled back maybe stage two. How does this how does a relationship like that possibly progress? OK, so obviously we've been talking about the early dating stage but let's say you progress beyond that and you're let's say a few months more into it

it's inevitable at some point this person is going to you're going to fall off their pedestal and whatever idolized projection they idea they have of you you are not going to be able to fulfill that and at that point they can start to become distant unkind say say mean things bully abusive you know it could go you know be to this extent and you left you were left kind of confused um because like where's this other person gone and then you unfortunately what happens is you put it on yourself and you think it's it must be me because why am i no longer in faith you know in favor with this person they were so wonderful to me and you might find that you put it all on yourself and they're also putting it on you as well here's another one yeah i was struggling in my marriage as the result of a

miscarriage and what i thought was a new surreally magical love turned out to be the efforts of a serial love bomber and narcissist. And narcissism has come up with it. A number of people have said this. My inability to read this cost me nearly everything and has left me struggling to cope through the last eight years. Thankfully, I think I'm close to recovery now, but it can be hard to fully accept

that I was with what to accept that what I was presented with and how I was made to feel was entirely illusory. It's, it's an, yeah, they create an illusion of this perfect romance that you have got the perfect relationship and then you get the shock of your life because it suddenly goes really, really like cold and you get left in this state of where's that person? And then what happens is they do something, but then they come back again. And then you, then you get left in this state of where's that person and then what happens is they do something but then they come back again and then you can then you get into this really toxic cycle but

you may not notice a cycle at all for quite a long time so they'll come back and give you love bomb you again and say i love you i'm so sorry i said that you know and then they go back to that and then they'll make a comment again and it will just go back and forth and you will just be left in this state. So the importance of the block, delete, move on is really, really important because you have to cut all ties with them. Because I know he would have come back and wheedled his way back in. But I was going to say, I didn't process it for a while until I actually wrote about it. And writing is therapy to me. So I wrote this long story, which is on my website, which thousands of women have now read.

And what prompted me to even contact you. And the DMs I was getting from people, like you're getting now, is I've been through exactly the same thing. I'm too embarrassed to tell anybody about it. So thank you for sharing your story. And thank you for sharing because my the end of my article is these are the signs to look out for so we can get out of those kind of relationships on the first date let me read another one that came in different point of view i think it's

worth noting that the love bombing behavior by the man in this case is not necessarily by someone who's trying to deceive or manipulate but may just as easily be done by someone who doesn't trust himself and is inexperienced in relationships and does not know how to act. He himself going through a vulnerable stage of a relationship, and he thinks that this is the way to behave when you meet a woman,

perhaps also from watching too many movies and not having succeeded in a good relationship. I've actually had male clients who've talked to me about this. And actually, yeah, there are the cases a good relationship i've actually had male clients who've talked to me about this and actually yeah there are there are the cases where men they have a they they've watched a lot of movies they've watched a lot of shows and they do have an idea of how they should be to get a woman and what you do find is that they actually sometimes they can either be manipulators or they could be the other

way where they feel like they don't actually have much to offer as themselves they actually do have no self-esteem perhaps and they don't feel like they are enough just as themselves so if they do all these big gestures and make the woman feel amazing then they will be lovable here's another oh dear as the mother of a 22 year old son i'm sure when he finally has the courage to declare his love to a lovely girl he will be so delighted he will want to show his effusive feelings. Could you make an exception for faulty, honest first steps? Pity the boys, please. I think there is a space for that.

I mean, some of it that you describe, particularly you, Lynne, is almost what you'd imagine from teenage love, like the early teenage. I've got three boys. OK, my boys are 16, 14 and 11. And I talked to them. So I went for a run yesterday with my 16 year old. I was like, oh, tomorrow I'm going on Women's Hour to talk about love bombing. And we had this open and honest conversation about what love bombing is. And he knows that that's not the right thing to do in the early stages of a relationship. Like we just need to, as mothers and fathers, talk to our children about. Here's another one. It's not just men who do this. Oh, yes. I mean, yes, women do it as well. So they want to be the perfect woman. They, you know, give the man everything they want.

They are the dream woman. They are kind. They are supportive. They are, you know, they do. They are the dream. And then what happens is they get the man and then that facade drops and they can be critical, nitpicky, you know, unkind to them, put them down. So I have seen it that way as well, especially in my couples counseling. I've seen that quite a bit where the man has actually felt quite devastated at the change of the woman. Is there a majority one way or the other when it comes to gender? From my experience, I've seen more men doing it. Right. One more comment. Love bombing is a classic precursor to gaslighting in my experience. They give you so much overwhelming attention and affection in the beginning to establish the relationship. And when the relationship feels

a little bit more secure and established, they take it away and you feel like you've done something wrong. I want to thank Lynn Beattie, who sent us this idea. She's also known as Mrs. Mummy Penny. Many of you might have been in touch with her about that already and Simone Bowes who is a relationship therapist who works with the organisation Relay. Thanks so much to both of you coming in. The comments continue to come in on 84844 and I will continue

to read them. Right, while I have been speaking to Simone and Len, I've actually had half an eye on the screen to the right of me something extraordinary going on on that screen. Because maybe when you think of arts and crafts, you might think of painting or sewing, maybe pottery. But my next guest, her creative outlet is something altogether different. She's a taxidermist and a stonemason, skills that perhaps she uses for what has made her famous recently.

Kerry Samantha Boyes is an artist who makes fake food. Now think of a mouth-watering three-tier Victoria sponge with cream and strawberries, or maybe a roast duck glistening as it has just come out of the oven, or maybe a frying pan with sizzling eggs, bacon and sausage and yeah, even fried bread. But it's all fake. Her work has been in the Barbie movie, Lord of the Rings. It's on display at National Trust sites. Her studio, the Fake Food Workshop, will be one of the 104 studios open

to the public for the Spring Fling art event which takes place across Dumfries and Galloway this weekend. I have a little window into the Fake Food Workshop. Kerry, you're so welcome to the programme. What are you working on there? Can you describe it to our listeners? So here we have a,

well, it's my take on a historical raised pie. So we've got two types here, which I'm madly trying to paint as we catch up making products for the shop. So this is, it's a large heart shape, it's got heart detail on here. This one is a more classical design, it's quite tall, it's got a leaf, sort of a cut out leaf pastry and in the middle of this pastry we'll be putting a cast bird's foot so the suggestion is that there is either a pheasant or pigeon in the pie they're very popular in sort of museums and historical houses. I mean to me it looks like the real thing and you have a pastry brush that you're dipping and you're painting

the top of it as you might glaze with an egg for example before popping it in the oven. How did you discover that you had this extraordinary talent uh i've always worked in replicas i studied sculpture and then my first job after uni was at the vinderlander trust where i was spent a year carving historical carved stones and copies of Roman altar stones and painting frescoes. And then after that, we worked for English Heritage. That was an interesting carry of the collection there. And then I moved up to Scotland to work in stone conservation.

And that's where I started to drain in taxidermy with George Jameson over in Crammond. And do your stonemason skills and your taxidermy skills lend themselves to fake food? Well they do in a way so for instance the taxidermy it's the well it's it's it's basically the um careful removal of a skin the study of an anatomy and then the rebuilding which is not unlike working with um fake food in that you have to study the piece that you you want to recreate consider the ingredients even the texture and the form collect together all the ingredients and then rebuild it so it's not dissimilar in that it's a dissection and a rebuild now i understand you keep some of your secrets close to your chest but what can you tell

us about that raised pie what if you made it out of if not pastry and meat um so actually these two i i'm not a great cook neither am i i did actually um make these with pastry and um so make them with pastry and then when they pop them out of the oven, I take them to my workshop and make a mould from silicon. And my preferred method of casting here is a product called jesmonite, which is wonderful. So this is, it's hollow as you can see here. Oh, she's just revealed. I just have to tell our listeners.

She lifted the pie, which I, to me, look like, you know, something very hearty and scrumptious. But she just lifted it up and she broke the illusion. It's completely empty inside. It's just a shell of a pie. Can you hear that? I can't.

A little banging. You're banging with the pastry brush on the top of the pie. So you have this ready to go. What else has to be done to it? A little bit of painting, maybe? Well, it's just, so once these are cast, then it's the careful application of acrylic, which tries to mimic a cooked pie.

And can you believe how famous you have become with fake food of late? I know Barbie was a big movie, of course, in all respects. Your food was there. I mentioned some of the other movies that was in as well. Did you expect this to take off

in the way that it has? Not really, no. I was working out of my spare room in Edinburgh less than a year ago. So this is a massive move for me to get down. Well, we've moved out from Edinburgh now in Kikubri, which is a wonderful place to be. It's called the artist's town um and we're you know it's a very creative it's got a very creative vibe and being part of spring fling is um a fabulous launch for the shop that we've got that we've built here so it's been massively busy we've in the last nine months we've moved house twice we've done a renovation of the terrace we've built the shop and we've continued to trade internationally through people like Etsy and Holly & Co. So it's been massive, but it's exciting.

Very exciting. You know, I remember in Japan, long queues of people lining up to buy plastic fake food like sushi trays or bowls of noodles. And the items would have previously only been on display in a restaurant window. Can you understand, as my last question, fake food aficionados that want to have it? To be honest, it's not really my bag. I mean, I love having fun with my kids but I suppose it's you don't eat your work home although

I think well there is a massive trend for people to collect fake food particularly in America I said a lot of things to Americans who just love to have it dotted around their houses It might be the

same case in Dumfries and Galloway this weekend. The fake food workshop will be one of the 104 studios that is open to the public for the Spring Fling art event and that was Kerry Samantha Boyce. We interrupted her work for a few minutes there on Woman's Hour. Thanks so much for speaking to us. Now, you might

have heard this morning in the news bulletins that some of Britain's most vulnerable children are being detained and having their freedoms restricted under court orders known as deprivation of liberty. The most senior family court judge for England and Wales, Sir Andrew Macfarlane, has called the growing use of the order a crisis. His concern is echoed by the Children's Commissioner for England who says their impact has been absolutely horrific and also a national scandal. We'll get into that and what they are in just a moment. This story is part of a BBC

investigation for File on 4. Ashley John-Baptiste has heard from children and young people who have spent parts of their childhood under severe restrictions. This is the first time that young people who have been under the order have spoken publicly. Young people like Zahra, who at 13 years of age was subject to physical restraints

and round-the-clock surveillance by male workers. It was horrible. I couldn't do nothing. Everything I was doing, they was there. Whether I'm going to the toilet, cooking cooking something just simply going down to the kitchen I was on one-to-one showers stuff like that so when I was showering there was someone it's a bit weird is it not like to shower I feel like if you're having a shower you're having a shower first shouldn't be a male it should be a a female. Yeah, I just felt uncomfortable. It just wasn't normal for you to have a shower at the age I was and someone's there.

That was Azarha. And I've got Ashley John-Baptiste joining me in the Woman's Hour studio. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. So perhaps you could explain, Ashley, a little bit more what these deprivation of liberty orders are. Indeed. So when a local authority deems that a child in their catchment is extremely vulnerable they can apply to the high court for that child to be deprived of their liberty. Now the order authorises for the child to

be detained in a children's home or another placement when secure accommodation which is purpose built for keeping a child secure, isn't available. Now, as well as detaining the child, the order subjects a child to a range of quite severe restrictions. So we're talking about restraint, 24-hour supervision by workers, no access to a phone or the internet. The order is meant as a last resort. And in terms of vulnerability, we are talking about some of the most vulnerable children. So we're talking children who may be vulnerable to sexual exploitation, gang involvement, or the child may pose a risk of harm to themselves or others. But ultimately, it's meant to keep them safe.

Meant to keep them safe. So why are they controversial? So a government task force was recently set up to tackle the growing use of these orders. Now, according to recorded data, applications to deprive children of liberty has gone up 12-fold since 2018. So between 23 and 24 last year, over 1,200 children in England were subject to one of these orders. So there's concern about the rise in its use.

The Children's Commissioner for England, Dame Rachel D'Souza, who you touched on there, is concerned about these restrictions in terms of them breaching children's rights. And there's concerns about the long-term impact these orders are having on vulnerable children. She referred to the deep, deep trauma that these orders are having on children. And we heard a little clip there of Zahra. But how did somebody like Zahra become subject to this order? Yeah, well, I should say she's a great personality. I've spent six months with her and I've gotten to know her quite closely.

I mean, Zahra, she's from East London. She was placed under one of these orders when she was 13 years old. It was the culmination of a traumatic childhood. So at three years old, she was put into foster care after suffering severe neglect and sexual abuse. By the time she reached her teens, she'd been placed in 14 foster homes. So that's a lot of movement. She absconded.

She ran away from several of them. Her local authority, Tower Hamlets Council, applied for a deprivation of liberty order on the grounds that she was at high risk of involvement with gangs, drugs, and child sexual exploitation. So of course she was really vulnerable. We've obtained details of her court order

through the family court. Under the order, under this deprivation of liberty order that she was subjected to, she was supervised by two workers around the clock in accommodation in Bedfordshire. She wasn't allowed to have a mobile phone or unsupervised access of the internet. And the order was imposed only for a week. But Zara was then placed in secure accommodation in Glasgow which is 400 miles away from her hometown in London. Now she says the impact was traumatic, friends thought she had died because they didn't know where she was.

Zara says that it felt wrong that a teenager who'd once been sexually assaulted could be restrained by two male workers and she says that those restraints weren't always about keeping her safe. And that is her opinion of course. Well let us bring in Beverly Bennett-Jones who also joins us. Beverly you've had a long career as a social worker, you're now the Associate Director for System and Impact at the Nuffield Family Justice Observatory and it's through your efforts that we're getting access to data about these deprivation of liberty orders. Why do you understand, or how do you understand,

why those orders are increasing? Ashley was telling us twelvefold. It's a combination of facts as to why these orders are increasing. There is a provision for children who are vulnerable at risk to themselves and others, and that's secure accommodation. And there's a process that goes to apply for those orders. What we've seen, though, is a serious reduction in the availability of that option for local authorities.

Secure children's homes have been reduced to, I think, only 16 now across England and Wales. Do we know why, just on that point? Well, they're incredibly expensive to run, to maintain. And there was a sense in the system that actually we need to find ways of meeting the needs of these children earlier on with early intervention so we don't get to a point of this kind of crisis. So there was a movement which this kind of crisis. So there was a movement which was kind of slightly against secure as an option and the research on secure

is mixed. There were experiences where we see really good benefits to young people through secure and others made no difference to their trajectories into very complex and difficult adult lives. The other factor is that we also saw a reduction over the last sort of 10 years in the provision of what we call mental health inpatient facilities for young people who may be demonstrating significant issues around their mental health because again for some good reasons it was felt that children shouldn't be put into hospitals but should be careful in the community closer to their families and on the other side of it we've also seen a change in the arrangements of our residential provision so we've lost residential provision, therapeutic provision because obviously we want

children to grow up in families or substituted families foster care and then on the other side there is a recognition that we have teenagers in the last 12 years entering the family court at rates that we hadn't seen previously. And we're seeing those children with incredibly complex lives and complex circumstances, you know, really severe exposure to adverse childhood experiences, sexual abuse, physical abuse, as Ashley has talked about, but also those children not being able to be held or maintained in the ordinary care provision the local authority has. So it's a kind of combination of factors that's seen the use of this provision, but the

extent of it is something our organisation, Nathal Family Justice Observatory, started to get an inkling of when people were approaching us, lawyers and reading judgments, that this was something that was a phenomena that was incredible and we needed to really look at what the driver's word for it. But they are meant to be, the order is meant to be a last resort. But I suppose it is difficult if there is a child that is potentially at risk and if these other places are not available, you don't want that child to be put in a position where we're talking about two young girls here, you know, that they may come to some harm

if they are not put under a deprivation of liberty order. Absolutely. I mean, it is a significant invasion into the rights of an individual to have their liberty restricted. So these orders aren't made without deep consideration by judges. And the evidence that judges will see will tell them that that child is at such risk of harm to themselves. We're talking fatality, self-harm, risk of suicide, right to risk of harm and violence to others. So at that moment in time of that emergency need, those orders may be justifiable. The difficulty we have is the plan for the

children, what is going to be the care for the children, the support for the children, the help for the children, the interventions that will impact on those traumatic events, those traumatic backgrounds. That's what's missing. So we end up having these orders being in place, but not the plans and the support and the care and the love the children need to progress through and to get to recovery, to become safer. Let us hear more of the stories. Ashley brought us our young woman

who had a background of severe child sexual exploitation. We heard her earlier talking about being subjected to shower supervision by men. She's not the only young woman that you talk to who has experience of this. Can you tell me what happened to Katie? I'll play a clip of her in a moment. Sure. So Katie from Bournemouth is now 18.

In her early teens, she was absconding from home and deemed, like Zara, to be at high risk of sexual exploitation. Her authority, her local authority at the time, Dorset Council, applied to the family division of the High Court for her to be placed under one of these orders. Although she was detained because of worries about sexual exploitation, she says, as you've touched on, that she ended up being supervised mainly by male workers.

Now, Katie recalls a quite disturbing incident so I was in the shower yeah and obviously I'm 14 at the time and this guy is like supervising me so I was like okay that's a bit weird obviously he's knocking on the door he's like oh if you don't come out if you don't come I'm gonna bust the door down I'm gonna come then he jumped on me obviously when I was like naked was this a worker yeah that was a guy support worker why did he do that because it's about power and I was like small at the time he restrained you whilst you were naked in the shower I really don't know how to respond to that that is quite disturbing to hear even if you go to social workers they don't care it's not their problem they get to

go home at the end of the day they get to go back to their, they don't care. It's not their problem. They get to go home at the end of the day. They get to go back to their families. They don't care where you are. That is quite shocking to hear, Ashley. Did you get a response from the local authorities? Yes. So Dorset Council told us they take her allegations very seriously and will investigate them thoroughly. Now, in response to Zara, who we did hear from earlier,

Tower Hamlets Council described her allegations as concerning, adding that they rarely use the orders and only when a child is extremely vulnerable. But the provision of care for children falls under the remit of the Department of Education. Have they responded to you on this story? Yes, they say they're investing more than 400 million pounds in expanding the provision of children's homes in England. They also added they are working with the NHS to address the trauma experienced by children who are at risk of being given one of these orders. Let me turn back to you, Beverly, because there are two young women that we have heard from. And how do you see the aspect that these young women were being supervised by men? I mean it's really shocking to hear these stories but also we've heard them ourselves in our organisation the work

we're doing with young people. It is obviously inappropriate as a minimum for those arrangements to be put in place in that way but that also reflects a problem with what's happening with the care of young people. The failure to understand the trauma that these young women have been through and the way that you think about how would you plan for their care doesn't happen in these initial placements into unregistered provision and it's really important to make that clear that these aren't care settings that most of these young people are being placed over 70 percent of them are in non-registered placements which means it could be a hotel room, you know, it could be an Airbnb. And the arrangement is focused on the physical containment,

not the love, not the care, not the trauma, not the interventions young people need. So we know that there's real concerns about the skills of staff and their capacities. We know there are real concerns around the fact that these children are moving through these placements frequently. There needs to be a wholesale change around bringing about a trauma-informed and a trauma-responsive approach to these young people because these difficulties they experienced started in their childhood and they're going to continue into adulthood.

They need long-term support, long-term care, and we are failing them. We are failing them. Ashley, you brought us Katie and Zara. How are they doing now? It's a good question. So Katie is in supported accommodation in Bournemouth. Now, when she was put on the doll order, she lost contact with her grandmother and older sister.

But she's back in her hometown and she now has the chance to rebuild those bonds. And she regularly has that contact with her family now which is making the world of positive difference for her. Zara's still quite vulnerable but like Katie she's in accommodation provided by her local authority. And the doll, the deprivation of liberty order. Thank you so much to Ashley John-Baptiste and Beverly Barnett Jones. You can hear Ashley's full investigation on Radio 4's File on 4 programme, Detained and Restrained, Britain's Vulnerable Kids, which will also be available on BBC Sounds.

Thanks for all your messages that are coming in to us on love bombing. Hi, I'm listening to this. I'm wondering if I'm guilty of love bombing, of imagining my partner, of quickly falling in love with who I imagined, then withdrawing rapidly when I meet the reality. And that is a woman, she says, who is messaging. Another message, ex-boyfriend, very similar. I now know he was very toxic and a gaslighter

when the love bombing was withdrawn. I then found myself becoming the love bomber, coming across needy, drove him away. One more, love bombing was withdrawn, I then found myself becoming the love bomber. Coming across needy drove him away. One more. Love bombing. Something very similar has happened to me a couple of times with female brand new friends. It isn't just in romantic relationships and can be just as damaging. 84844.

Right, let us turn to Japan. The Japanese royal family is one of the oldest in the world. The same dynasty has ruled for more than 2,500 years. But the current law means that only a male heir can inherit the chrysanthemum throne and then become emperor. So it's caused a succession crisis in recent years as the royal family has had girls, no boys. Last week, Japanese lawmakers started discussions about whether to relax their strict succession laws. Could there be an empress instead of an emperor? Well, to tell us more, I'm joined by Shaima Khalil, the BBC's Tokyo correspondent.

Welcome back to Women's Hour, Shaima. Just how important is the royal family to Japanese society? Oh, I think it's really important. I think it's one of this country's most respected institution, they are seen as a symbol of stability, as a symbol of continuity, especially if you look at, for example, the Emperor Emeritus, Emperor Akihito,

Empress Emeritus Michiko, who are now retired. They're seen as the parents of the nation. For example, you know, if I look back at the 2011 disaster, the tsunami, the nuclear disaster that happened in Fukushima, those pictures of the emperor and the empress back then kneeling on the ground, sitting next to their people, talking to them comforting them it became a moment really for japan the fact that they were one with their people and and and even the emperor and the empress now and emperor naruhito empress masako they are highly highly respected i don't think that younger people in japan relate to them as much as as an older as the older generation it's there's definitely a generational gap, but I think

all in all, they are highly, highly respected and admired. But what might happen now with gender and succession? So it's a men-only policy on the throne. Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean, I don't know if you can see this, but this is essentially the, well, you can't, but it's essentially the family tree, and I'm looking at it right now. And as it stands, the royal family has 17 members. Five of those are male. Now, if you put aside the emperor Emeritus Akihito, who abdicated, and the current emperor Naruhito, you've got three male potential successors. One of them is the emperor's uncle, his 88-year-old uncle. The two others are his brother, Fumihito.

And the only young male in this family is Prince Hisahito, 17-year-old. So there is a lot of pressure on this young man because he's seen essentially as the successor. But, you know, if you look back in history, once upon a time, there were empresses of Japan. And looking at the polls, there seems to be an appetite to have a woman lead the monarchy. So why isn't that happening? Well, it's interesting because that poll actually shows you the huge gap, I think, between what the Japanese public are willing to accept and are welcoming and what Japan's ruling elite, the conservatives of the LDP party, the ruling party, the Liberal Democratic Party, they are absolutely not entertaining this as an option at the moment. For a while, it was in the zeitgeist.

There was the beginning of a political debate about whether Princess Ico, the only daughter of the current emperor and empress, if she could be the successor. But then once her first cousin, the male cousin was born, that debate was cast aside. But it doesn't solve the problem of the continuation of this family. It was interesting. I was reading a Times article quoting Yoshiko Onoda, a former prime minister. He says, it is possible that when Prince Hisahito becomes emperor,

there will be no longer any members of the family left. And I also think it has a lot to do with the married princess principle, which is that if a princess marries a commoner, which, as it stands, is their only option, she has to leave the family. She has to give up her royal status. But what that means is that the conservative rulers, the conservative members of government, members of parliament in Japan would rather see the imperial family extinct or disappear

rather than change the laws. And I think the debate right now is, well, to solve that problem, do we allow more princesses back in the family? Do we then say, if she marries outside the family, she stays? That's what's happening right now. Because with that law, marry a commoner and you're out, it doesn't apply to men, though, in our last 30 seconds or so. No, it doesn't apply to men. It's only the women. If a woman marries a commoner outside the family, she's outside the family.

If a man marries outside the family, he's bringing someone in. But of course, because there are so many more women in the royal family than men, then the likelihood of them being cast out is much higher. How interesting. Shaima Khalil, the BBC's Tokyo correspondent,

joining us on Woman's Hour and ending this hour. Thanks for all your messages coming in. So many on love bombing. Let me read a couple more. Amy, I've been in two relationships where I've been love bombed. I'm thankful for the experience as toxic and as difficult as they were at the time.

This is because they led me to the relationship I'm now in with the father of my children. He is stable, he is kind, and I'm lucky to have him. Oh, lovely message to end, Amy. Thanks for joining me on Woman's Hour. You got Anita tomorrow. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.