Woman's Hour - England Captain Leah Williamson

Episode Date: August 12, 2022

Having led the England women’s team to Euro 2022 victory, Lionesses captain Leah Williamson joins Woman’s Hour for a very special programme. Leah joins Jessica Creighton to reflect on winning England’s first major trophy since 1966 and to discuss the future of women’s football both at the elite level and in schools. She also talks about her passions outside of football, including being a DJ. Jessica and Leah speak to Radio 1’s Adele Roberts and Dr Kelly Jakubowski, from Durham University who is an expert in music and psychology, about how you find the perfect track for a celebration. And, fashion and football aren't necessarily two things you'd put together, but they are two topics very close to Leah's heart. She expresses herself through her clothes and will talk about her love of unisex fashion. We will also speak to an original Lioness, Sue Whyatt, to discuss how far the game has come. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Emma Pearce

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning. It's a very special day on Woman's Hour. I'm joined by Leah Williamson, captain of England Women. Leah and the Lionesses are European champions, bringing home the first senior major trophy for England since, get this, 1966. And now today we've put her in charge as the guest editor. She's 25 and was named captain just a few months ago.

She's been a popular face amongst women's football fans for years as an Arsenal defender, but now she's a household name. And Leah is using her success to boost the grassroots, especially trying to get more girls playing football at school. Everything we talk about today has been chosen by Leah. From that letter written by her and her fellow lionesses to the two leadership candidates to be the next prime minister to her life away from football. Did you know she's a DJ on the side and she's expressive on the pitch, but off the pitch, Leah lets her clothes do the talking. So we'll be chatting about her love of fashion.

And also what makes Leah and the team's Euros success all the more remarkable is the fact that women were banned from playing football in England for 50 years. We'll be bringing together Leah and one of the Lionesses who played in the first ever official England team. And Leah became the first woman to lift a senior major trophy for England. So I'm sure you lot want to talk to her as well. So listeners, please get in touch. Remember, we're now on WhatsApp. The number is 03700100444.

Save that number in your phone. Data charges may apply. We're on text as well, 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. And on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us as always through our website. But Leah, good morning. You're here. Good morning. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Absolute pleasure. You're looking forward to taking over the programme. A little bit nervous, but we'll give it a go. Okay. You've chosen all the topics this morning.

But first, can we go back, please, to that moment when you saw the referee on the pitch in that final game blow the final whistle. Describe what's going through your mind. I'd gone a bit crazy in my head and I actually thought that extra time finished at 115 minutes. So I've been screaming at her for about five minutes to blow the whistle. So when it finally went, yes, massive relief, to be honest.

I broke down in tears because obviously you talk about things, but that's been my dream since I was a little girl. And yeah, to finally say that we've done it is pretty special. I think the whole team were in tears, not just the team, the whole stadium. I was in that stadium. The energy was electric. We really could feel everything that you guys were feeling on the pitch. Everyone was jumping around at the full time whistle. But then I saw you go over to one of the opposition players who was obviously crying her eyes out. One of the German players.

Yeah. And you kind of sat with her for a while and it seemed like you were consoling her. What did you say? Yeah, I think the player in Oberdorf, she had a fantastic tournament. She's young and I think a lot of our girls, I was really proud of the team because a lot of us went over to speak to them.

Obviously, you have an initial moment of celebration, but ultimately we went out for a day of football that's changed the game. And to be on the losing side of that, we would know how hard that would be. So, yeah, I think just there's nothing you can say in that moment that will make it any better. But I think in the times like those,

you want to remember that, you want them to remember their worth and that it's not the be all and end all in that moment. Although for us to win, it's easy to say that. For me, that felt like a moment that really typified your leadership because you were offered the captaincy very early in your England career. But that just showed the kind of leader that you were. How did you decide about how you were going to captain this team? What style of captaincy you were going to do? I think the main thing that anybody said to me was,

you've been chosen for a reason. And it was something that I struggled a little bit with just because I've been enjoying my role as just being one of the girls and being in the mix of it all and naturally it's a lot of responsibility and extra responsibility I suppose on top of just being a player but I just didn't want to change and I made it I made that clear and I you know if that's the one thing that I ask people to give me feedback on if you think something or you know I'm not somebody that pretends to know all the answers I like to have information I like to be knowledgeable about

things but I don't know everything and I was willing to be vulnerable with the girls and I think that is maybe a good thing because it levels it out but also being a leader from within it's not there's a time and a place for everybody to say something and I think if you know your strengths and you know what you can bring to a team especially in a team environment it's really important that you do step up in those moments but to force them is the worst thing you can do because people see straight through it and we're about to go on a tournament a journey in a tournament we were away for ultimately nine weeks you can't pretend to be anybody that you're not and I didn't want to do that so for me I sort of backed the fact that I was one of the girls and I was um I felt part of the group and just tried to lead from within that way um and be as authentic as possible that shows a great level of maturity now you you were playing under a manager Serena Wiegmann, who was in the team or became part of the team for less than a year, but achieved so much.

What do you feel you learned from her during the course of the tournament about leadership, about being a captain? I think she's something that I admire about people is when they're comfortable with themselves. They've obviously got to a point where they understand themselves. They know what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. And I think that's played a major role in Herbie. And she's come in and she's just sort of, English football culture is so strong and she's come from a different culture, a different country

and just been as true to herself as she could have been. So her culture is remarkably different she's Dutch isn't she so is that her culture remarkably different to English culture I think so I think I mean English football culture I don't think anything really compares to how crazy we all get about it and that kind of side of things um even our media is different you know just to other nations and I think historically people have had a problem with England or they like to dislike England. So for her to come in, and I think that Dutch style is very direct,

is very straight to the point, very respectful. And I think that's what people do respect about it, is that she's human first, puts you as a human first, but ultimately she's here to do a job. And because she does it in that way, even if you disagree with something that she says or a decision that she makes you can never question her intent or like I say you can never sort of lose respect for her in

the way that she does it I don't think which is a major strength in a team environment because as I said people see through if you're if you're not yourself or if you're chopping and changing so yeah so you've tried to be as authentic as possible yeah basically yeah basically and I think that has come across throughout this tournament and the leadership that you've shown has not just impacted your teammates but also fans as well because ahead of ahead of you coming on today we did ask some listeners to send in some questions from future lionesses so let's listen to two of them now my name is Nelly I'm seven years old I love football but I play with boys it was a great experience to see girls play football keep going do your best and have fun how old were you when you started to play football and when did you join a girls team?

Hi Leah, my name is Evelyn, I'm nine years old and I play for Carver United under 10 girls. I'd really like to know who or what inspired you to start playing football? Oh they're lovely. Very cute. Yeah there's a questions for you direct from some of our listeners so Nelly asked there how old were you when you started playing football and when did you first join a girls team yeah so I was six when I started to play outside of the playground I think and then I actually joined a girls team the year after so I was seven I was lucky I got scouted and sort of moved into a centre of excellence at the time um so yeah I was really lucky in my journey in terms of being in a safe environment and playing with girls uh growing up but I don't think it's a bad thing to be playing

in the boys team either I don't think that that affects your journey and so many of the girls the Lionesses current squad grew up playing with boys yeah it's the same for me as well yeah i think some girls naturally if you want to get into it and you feel uncomfortable in those environments then absolutely find a girls team and i'm that's what we want we want more girls teams we want it to be something that everybody can access but playing in a boys team i think is a great option too i don't think you lose anything by doing that. And what inspired you to first start playing?

Because I know you come from a football family. Your brother plays, doesn't he? Your dad is a football fan. A Spurs fan? When you are out and out Arsenal, I don't even know how that would work. But what first inspired you to start playing? Yeah, I come from a football household,

split down the middle, mum's Arsenal, dad's Spurs. Wow. Yeah, so... North London derbyurs. Wow. Yeah, so. North London derby must be fun. Yeah, I don't think we ever watched it in the same room. But yeah, so it was, you know, I was always going to grow up loving football if I wanted to be close to my family, I think. And then, yeah, I don't know.

Mum just says one day, apparently I went home and said, I'm going to play football. And she said, you sure? And I said, yeah, go on, we'll give it a go. And then that was it. I just never looked back. I think I've just always known that that's what I loved and sort of fitted the nature of who I am. Yeah.

And it's great that you had that support from your family and from your parents in particular. Now, on our programme Monday before last, we spoke to a former Lioness you might have heard of, Kelly Smith. And we asked her about a photo of you and her when you were just a young girl coming out with Arsenal as a ball girl this is what Kelly has had to say about you she's only a young captain uh but her play she plays way way beyond her years she's very calm relaxed leads by example but Leah's just very humble she comes from

a really friendly family background good nurturing she's very intelligent in the way she comes across and portrays our game so full credit goes to her and her family and the way she's led this Lionesses to this major trophy. How does it feel to hear that Leah from a player whose poster you used to have on your wall as a child yeah she was my hero she still is my hero um no it's lovely it's nice to football terms obviously it's it's great if people have opinions football's a game of opinions so you win some you lose some um obviously it means a lot to me that Kelly I think there was a slight compliment in there so so I'll take it. But to me, and I think maybe this is what she's referring to, my mum has always sort of said to me that she would be as proud of me

if I was playing for England or if I was playing, you know, just for a local team at the weekend. That wouldn't matter to her. The thing that makes her proud is if people say Leah's you know got good manners or she can she can communicate with people she makes people feel good about themselves and I think that's what makes me proud when I listen to that because it's not something that you can try and be like I said you can't force those things it's just how people perceive you and um yeah that's that's more important to me that that she thinks I'm a good person I think and Kelly Smith isn't the only one singing your praises you've become a household name Leah haven't you what is it like

going to the shops now yeah everybody double takes um most of the time I say yeah that's not me um but yeah it's been crazy I'm but I'm glad you know it's it's been a while all those people you know Kelly should have been a household name she she probably was but she was probably the only ones um there's been so many years of women's footballers that deserve the platform we have. So I take it in my stride and hopefully for the better of the game. We've spoken about sportswomen using their platform and you and the Lionesses have done exactly that. There were so many times during interviews where you would say we've changed society. You said it throughout the tournament.

What is it about this team that's made an impact, do you think? I think another thing that Serena brought in was she wanted us to connect with the fans and she wanted us to be relaxed about that. You can have a good time whilst you're doing your job and that kind of vulnerability, I suppose, to people shows that we're human uh makes us a little bit more takes us down off a pedestal and was that kind of

discouraged before under previous managers i don't think it was discouraged at all i just think the like i said this english mentality we're you know when we go to work we're we're at work and we have to be hard-faced and we have to be you know know... Stiff upper lip. Yeah, you know, and it's just how we are. It's how we've sort of grown up to be and I think that it's not a sign of weakness to show vulnerability. And by vulnerability, I mean, you know, allowing people to see you as a human being. So I think we know that sport changes

and sport has the power to change things. And for women to be on that platform showing that they can sort of connect with people in that way and bring others up with them I think is the most important thing that we could have done. One of the biggest areas that people talk about when it comes to change within the women's game is is the finances the money yeah now when playing for England the men's and the women's teams are paid the same, but for club football, earnings are nowhere near equal. Do you think that needs to change?

I think that as the game grows, naturally those things should change. You know, we're gone are the days where my teammates had two jobs. When I first started playing with the senior team, people would leave their job in the day to come and train at night. You can't expect a level of quality. You look back on the senior team, people would leave their job in the day to come and train at night. You can't expect a level of quality.

You look back on the two finals, the last time the Lionesses were in a final against Germany and most of those players would have been part-time or working all hours of the day to support their footballing career. So we're on this journey now where we have a professional game.

The finances need to reflect that to allow people to, if we want to be good, if we want to produce quality on the world stage, you have to have a level of professionalism in your life that is only sustainable through better finances than we've previously seen. Do I think it should be the same as the men's? Nobody's asking for that right now.

It's a different product. They're you know ticket sales the amount of people that go to watch week in week out it's a completely different product and in terms of stages but are we surprised no we were banned for 50 years so we're playing catch up which is fine we are where we are but we don't settle because we know where it goes I think yeah yeah there's that I mean strides have been made but yeah there is a long way there's a long way to go but we have a product now where you're seeing the the yeah based on the professionalism of the game the support that we have around the game you're seeing the products of that on the pitch now I just want to change subjects slightly here Leah because I want to talk about music.

It's one of your passions. Yeah. Now, you've got some DJ decks at home. Yeah. And music was such a big part of the Euros for this England team. So let's just remind our listeners of the big tunes of the tournament. Good times never seemed so good It's coming home, it's coming home, it's coming Football's coming home, it's coming home It just never gets old, Leah. Bring back memories?

Yeah, yeah. I've heard those songs so many times. I think I sing them in my sleep. Yeah, you're a big music fan, as I said. You've got some eclectic taste as well, don't you? Considering you're 25, you've got some... I've got an old soul. You've got an old soul. I wasn't going to say it, but yeah, you're 25 you've got some I've got an old soul got an old soul I wasn't gonna say it but yeah you've got an old soul um yeah I grew up around lots of different types of music um old music classics um and then obviously yeah I just I love having a good time and I think music is the best way to do that

it is two people uh joining us now who know all about music, two amazing DJs that are coming on to Woman's Hour. Adele Roberts is Radio 1 DJ and Hannah Wants is a DJ, used to play for Aston Villa and England before quitting football to DJ full time. Good morning to you Adele and to Hannah as well. I'll come to you both in just a moment but just Leah just just get us into why you love music so much and what is it specifically about DJing? I mean for me there's two things in the world that make me feel certain level of emotion and that's football and music I don't think anything else can do it and I think music brings people together in the same way that sport does.

You hear a tune that you both like. If you can connect with somebody on that level, I don't know, it feels bigger than any other bond. So I just, I don't know, I love it. I love it for the team. I love getting involved as much as possible with the selection of music. Yeah, I know you take it really seriously. Adele uh interesting there

hearing Leah talk about the connection that she feels with music and there is a relationship isn't there between the DJ and the crowd how does it feel for you oh yeah definitely um first of all morning Jessica thanks for having me on the show and Leah well done thank you thank you but yes Leah's so right um I think both are built on passion and you can't fake either. You know, you've got to be in it with your heart and soul and your whole body. And going back to what Leah said as well, I love the fact that she says she's an old soul because I feel like music begins in the soul and it connects with your soul. It's almost like it changes the molecules in your body. And music, something that's always been there for me

all the way through my life, through the ups and downs, and I'm sure that's the same for Leah as well. Yeah. And Hannah, with you having played football and now DJing, there's something between those two, isn't there, that's so similar? There's a lot of connection between the two of those things. Yeah, I'm about to mirror what Leah said, and that I had two passions as a child

music has always been inside me and my family I would tape record off of radio back in the day and try and stop you know trying yeah and I played football from when I was six as well but it got to a point for me where I was 23 years old and I was getting in from the clubs when I was trying to become a DJ. And then heading back out to play what was then Premier League football for Aston Villa with no sleep, often intoxicated. You know, trying to balance these two things. Obviously, you couldn't get away with that now. But like we spoke or like you spoke about, we didn't get paid to play. In fact, we were paying subs back then and DJing was my side job and I wanted to become a DJ.

I wanted to be a footballer, but it wasn't at the level now. And I had to make a choice and it was really difficult to obviously leave. I was playing for England under-23s and Aston Villa and I had to make a choice and DJing was, I guess, the passion that I chose. So I'm glad I did. And you know what? Just to say I'm so happy to see the movements now that women's football is making and deservedly so.

You know, like Leah said, there's a huge, huge way to go. But for me, when I was a kid, you know, seeing what you guys have just done is what I wanted to do as a kid and through my teens and up until I retired, you know. So congratulations. And it's just the beginning now. Like you said, there's a huge way to catch up, but I believe we're on the road now and just so happy and proud. Yeah. What a moment. Leah and the Lionesses have provided so many of us. Now, Hannah and Adele, you might already know this, but Leah is the England women's dressing room DJ and she takes it very, very seriously.

What kind of tracks are you playing, Leah, in the dressing room? This is where I think unless you've been inside a football changing room, you don't understand sometimes that wild cards get thrown in, but they're the best ones. So, you you know over the course of the summer we had a bit of ABBA is that a wild card that's a classic you know what I'm saying it's not it's not a new release is it or it's not um it's not modern but I think songs like that just get everybody everybody going yeah a bit of ABBA we had um it was nice moment

before the final we had In A Smile by Texas which if anybody's seen Bender Like Beckham is sort of from that so yeah I think it was like a bit of a chill think about where you come from imagine you're a little girl watching Bender Like Beckham thinking about this day so yeah songs like that bring people together. And now

Leah doesn't always get time to DJ Hannah so have you got any kind of... I need any tips. Yeah, she needs tips. How can she kind of balance the two together? How can she get back into it? Give us some ideas of what she can do.

Yeah, Leah, you can come up to mine and we can go back to back and we can have a little lesson any day. So you've got that. Yes, all right. I appreciate that. As for balancing, you know what that's that's a difficult skill for anybody even just you balancing a lot anybody balancing life with their one passion let alone two so um that's what I'm trying to learn myself you know as as somebody

who travels a lot runs a record label is a DJ I make music you know so you know what let's all share tips it's about you know being as organized as possible and also when it's a passion it's not really kind of like a drain to do it gives you energy so you know like it's not something that at the end of it I don't know what what your daily schedule is like but you know it's going home and having a couple of hours on the decks isn't something that you're not going to not look forward to you know what i mean you're going to want to get there and it's going to give you a bit of energy and put a smile on your face before bed but yeah if you want any um saying that it sounds like you mix multi-genre from abba to yeah i don't know you're mixing them yeah no i don't know how i could teach you that one but

i don't even know how to use the buttons yet, so I'm struggling. Well, I'm up for giving you a lesson any time, Leah. All right, that's a deal. Thanks very much. You can both come back on Woman's Hour for that. That would be great. Now, Adele, you're obviously very sporty. I know you're a big football fan, but you've also run the London Marathon.

How does music help with your training and your mood as well? Yeah, I'm glad that Leah said that she likes to mix it up because one thing that helped me when I was training for the marathon and actually on the course was I got all my friends and family to suggest songs that meant something to both me and to them and had like a massive playlist so when I was really needed it when I hit the wall in the marathon those songs would come on and it'd be maybe something my dad had picked and it just get me through so I feel like that's a really good tip Leah like when you're next on international duty or like out with the club pick you know ask your family to suggest songs and then also tracks that mean things to the other people in the the changing room as well and then you know

if you have it on shuffle they'll just come around and you'll just I don't know it just gives you such a boost it It's amazing. Yes, life, life and music together. You've got players that make requests to you though, don't you? Oh, they make themselves heard, yeah. Who are they? Who are the players? Toonie, I mean, Jill Scott will be sat the seat behind me and she'll text me, can you put this on now, please?

And then if it doesn't come on the next one, she's texting me again, like, where is it? I'm like yeah all right it's in the queue we've got other requests coming in i can't believe there's a club like a club lawyer next to his england club dj but i absolutely love it and they're trying to kick me out they're trying to kick me out so it's a high pressure job yeah essentially you're trying to satisfy the needs of 22 other people impossible task 22 people in a really intimate setting as well it's not like we're all just at a you know not like people can just wander off and get a

drink and come back to it they're sat on the coach and they're they want their uh yeah they want they want their good good vibes i suppose vibes and they want their vibes now um as well as trying to get people in the mood and and g people up uh in the dressing room leah i suppose there's sometimes when we use music during the down times. And I know you did that a lot, didn't you, when you were injured. Music was a healing mechanism for you. Yeah, I'm a big believer in feeling what you need to feel.

And I think sometimes you can't quite get it out. Or sometimes you watch a movie and it will bring it out. But music for me is, if I feel like I need to have a bit of a cry or that can bring it out in me. So yeah, when I was injured and sort of putting on a brave face and I'm going into the club and then when I'm getting home at night putting my record player on you know like really getting into it kind of thing just to see how I'm actually feeling maybe I don't feel bad but uh yeah good to keep in touch with yourself yeah sometimes it's just

better isn't it just have a good cry when you need to have a good cry. Get in the shower, speaker on, just have a cry. Yeah, I agree with that. I feel the same way. Adele, you've been very vocal about your recovery from bowel cancer, which is so pleasing to hear. But during the difficult times, how did music help you? Yeah, just what Leah said.

You know, you've got to let it out. And I find some of the ways that I do that is through sport by going for a run um but other ways is definitely music and um I've got this playlist that I run to actually when I'm feeling sad and it's called in my feelings oh yeah is there is a lot of Drake yeah Beyonce Whitney Houston and I just allow myself to feel a little bit sad but it always helps the the feelings move through my body and just allow myself to feel a little bit sad but it always helps the the feelings move through my body and then I start to feel good again yeah that makes that makes a lot of sense Hannah are you the same you I mean you obviously DJ in Ibiza which I imagine is

pretty upbeat but there must be times where you want a slower tempo of song 100% like if I'm feeling outside of house music which is what I make and play I'm a big fan of alternative down tempo R&B so your Santino the saint kind of vibes like that's my vibe so that's what I'll listen to if I'm kind of in that emotive state but one of the best things about my job is that even though I play and make house music the amount of messages that I get of support from people that have said that they have listened to my mixtapes or my songs in when they felt depressed when they felt like they wanted to commit suicide like seriously on that kind of deep

level and said that my music has helped them um I met I was just I've just come back from America and in fact I've got a load of crystal bracelets in front of me that this girl had given me because she first started watching me in America in 2015, has been a fan ever since. And she said that she went through some seriously dark times and that my music, you know, really stopped her from doing some harmful things. And that is an incredible feeling.

And so it's just just moving that music helps the soul you know it doesn't matter what what you lean to but whatever it is music can help you in the good times and then in the bad times as well yeah it really can that connection is just unlike anything else yeah honestly um hannah wants adele roberts thank you so much for joining us on women women's hour it's been a pleasure to talk to you. And hopefully we can set up maybe Leah DJ alongside the both of you here on Women's Hour in a couple of weeks, maybe. That would be good, wouldn't it? Let's go. Let's do that. Now, Leah, we've had some more voice notes in from girls who play football let's listen to one of them now hi leah my name is scarlet i'm 11 years old and i play left wing for broomfield girls under 13s and i just wanted

to thank you for an amazing summer of football my question for you is who asked you to be captain was it serena how did she do it and how did it make you feel? Thank you for giving me an opportunity not to be invisible anymore. That last, yeah, that last line. Thank you for making me not want to not be invisible. I know it's powerful. Your eyes are welling up a little bit, Aaliyah. It got to me that did. I didn't expect that last bit. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah. So who asked you to be captain? How did it make you feel?

Yeah, Serena. She just texted me before lunch one day. Like, have you got five minutes? You thought you were in trouble, didn't you? I did. I always think I'm in trouble, even though I don't really do much to get myself in trouble. But yeah, so I just wandered down.

I actually had a concussion at the time, but I didn't really know about it at that point. So I was a bit... I'm glad I remember the conversation. So yeah, just asked me if I wanted to and I just followed my gut in the moment. And obviously my first thought was like, that's a responsibility. So like time to step up. You always felt ready for it, didn't you?

I think, to be honest, I really wasn't before. Like when I had it sort of just on the odd game before, I just thought that's, it's a big role. It's a big role to take on. I've still got my own way to make in football. You know, I don't know if I can do that. But like I said, in the moment, it just felt right in my gut. So yeah.

And obviously like my family, that's a really proud thing for them I think so that was that was one of the first things I thought about okay thank you to Scarlett for that that's a good question lovely yeah lovely comment at the end yeah you got to Leah there Scott yeah I'm gonna take that with me got some tears there um we've got another one let's listen to this hi my name is Charlotte and I play for Brimfield under-12 girls football team. My question to you would be, what are the top three tips you would give a defender? That's a good one.

Considering, though, you didn't make a single tackle during the Euros tournament, Leah. I really should have forced that at the end of the, in the last game or something. Top three tips. Be brave, I think think first and foremost um i'd say use your communication skills you have a lot more time than everybody else and you can help everybody else like that a good defender once told me that your job is 10 times easier if you get everybody else to do it for you so um yeah communication and i think watch the ball.

Never take your eye off the ball. It doesn't matter what the player's doing in front of you. But yeah, keep your eye on the ball. Make your tackles. There you go, Charlotte. Tips there from the England captain, no less. That's really, really good. Remember, everyone listening, you can still get in touch with us.

We are on WhatsApp, 03700100444. You can text us as well on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. We're at BBC Woman's Hour on social media as well. So lots of people getting in touch, Leah. We'll come to a few of the texts and the WhatsApps a bit later. But first, when I think the rest of the country were celebrating your Euros win, the entire Women's England squad were writing an open letter to the Conservative Party leadership candidates, Richie Sunak and Liz Trust. And in it, you said, we want every young girl in the nation to play football. This is an opportunity to make a huge difference. And in that letter, you also highlighted the fact

that only 63% of girls have the chance to play football in PE lessons. That's according to the FA. You also said that all girls should have access to a minimum of two hours of PE a week. That's incredible. I mean, we're all celebrating. You're already thinking about, you know, the next step and the legacy you want to leave behind. Whose idea was the letter? Was it something that was quite spontaneous or was it planned?

No, yeah. I think it was a couple of days before the final. Lotta Wubbamoy, she came up to me she said, I just want to pick your brain about something. We have a window between the end of our tournament and the start of the men's Premier League. And she said, I think we need to capitalise and we need to, we talk about our legacy, but what does it actually look like? And we need something that's tangible. She said to me, you on the game but i've got like a i'm gonna have a think about it and we'll talk about it after the game and then on the way back from trafalgar square after all those celebrations after the celebrations yeah she just sort of turned around and we spoke about it a little bit um and yeah she's it's lotta's incredible

if she's impassioned about something, then she'll change the world. And we all really respect that about her. So as soon as she started speaking, everybody was obviously on board. And we thought it was a good route to go down in terms of how do we make the biggest change? And I think that lower, we fix it at the bottom. And it's the opportunity bit. You can want to be a professional footballer, but maybe you just want to play with your friends and you didn't really know it was an option and um yeah I think that 63 percent is that's the people that have equal opportunity to to play or you know um we we need it to be equal boys and girls it doesn't matter

what uh when you go to school whatever's on offer for for your male counterpart is on offer to you um and yeah very proud of her for sort of coming up with it but yeah the fact that that she did it at such a time as well is is even more impressive it really is um and now we've been in contact with a PE teacher to try and get a better idea of the landscape when it comes to PE lessons for girls in school. So joining us now is Ellie Kirk, who works at a secondary school in North Lincolnshire. Good morning to you, Ellie. Just give us an idea then of the provision for PE lessons for girls at your school at the moment.

Yeah, good morning. Massive congratulations to Leah. Thank you. Well done on penning that letter. I think every PE teacher in the country kind of went, oh, God, thank you. It was amazing. So really appreciate that. Yeah. PE in schools and forever banging that drum of making sure those pupils get access to two hours a week. So for it to come from you ladies this year that's it's a huge thing and um and yeah definitely behind making sure the girls have equal access to football in schools we

are passionate about it as are you girls and um we really do want to keep pushing it and making sure that there's more available for them and and with help and I know it's it's a letter to the very top of the top there but I hope that filters through and we can like you say start making changes down at the bottom in schools yeah um we we can also be joined now by the Conservative MP Tracey Crouch who's big football fan used to be the sports minister and is also a qualified coach. Good morning to you, Tracey. Good morning. Now, we know that two hours a week PE is recommended, but it's not compulsory.

Do you think we need to change how sport is taught in schools? I think we need to change how sport is viewed full stop. I'm a great believer in the power of sport and how it can contribute to so many different challenges that we face across society. It's not just what happens in schools. I think it's incredibly challenging to fit more sport into the school curriculum, which is under so much pressure. And while I share the view of all the PE teachers, that it'd be great to have more PE in sport, especially as somebody who loved PE at school. I think that we also need to recognise that there is so much pressure from an academic perspective as well.

I do think that one of the issues, though, is that sport in school is run by the DfE and not by the department that has responsibility for sport and therefore it is always in conflict with some of the other pressures that are being placed upon schools. And by that you mean the Department of Education which currently looks after school sport? That's correct. When I was appointed sports minister back in 2015, I asked David Cameron, the then Prime Minister,

if I could have school sport within the portfolio and he said no, it will stay in the Department for Education, to which my response was, well, I feel like I've already failed then. Because one of the challenges is to try and get more people involved in sport at an early age. If you create that habit and that enjoyment for sport, whatever sport that might be, and I do recognise that not everyone wants to play football both boys and girls you know have varied interests but if you don't get them involved in sport at a very early age then you lose them from activity for the rest of their lives yeah and Leah and the Lionesses have been very clear Tracy in in addressing this letter to the Tory party candidates that are going to be the next prime minister of the UK.

So do you feel as though this could get forgotten about? You know, within a matter of weeks, we'll have a new prime minister and they'll face a huge number of competing demands. Could this get buried? I hope not. I think both have indicated that they're very interested in sport. They're interested in well-being, they're interested in obviously making sure that the huge success of the Lionesses is not lost and that there is a legacy from it.

What that legacy is, you know, and how it is implemented is obviously something that they will be looking at. But I do think that we just need to change our attitude towards sport as a nation. And I've been lucky enough to travel the world. I was with the Lionesses when they were in Canada back in 2015. And, you know, it just other parts of the fact that in different countries they have you know complete afternoons that are dedicated entirely to sport or physical activity and we just don't have that in our education system. Yeah what do you think needs to be done Ellie? What can be done to better support PE teachers like yourself? Yeah definitely we definitely need to look at funding PE departments and making sure that we can offer the best provision to these young people

as possible so that we can offer options in PE and sports like you just preluded to there about not every girl will want to play football. Well, let's make sure that it's an option. And that's going to, it's going to take funding. The schools need support with facilities. Facilities in schools have declined over the years and there's not always the money there to make sure that we can use what we do have. Sports fields in the winter become flooded

we really do struggle to get out on the field and offer things like football and it has a massive impact on the girls wanting to play sport when we don't have astroturf or a well-drained facility where the girls can help get out there and play sport and So funding is a massive thing, looking at the facilities and making sure those facilities are open to the communities as well so that it's not just a school facility. Let's offer it as a hub so that other clubs and teams can come and use the schools to provide those extra clubs after school for the young people.

What do you think to that, Tracey, and making sure facilities are up to scratch? I think she's absolutely bang on. But I do think it's really important as well that we differentiate between primary and secondary schools. I think that, you know, there's different pressures on both. And I think in primary schools, it's much easier to make sure that girls are being offered equal access to different sports although it doesn't always happen but I do think the key issue is that we try and make sure that there is a link between community clubs and that those community clubs are helping to deliver both the sport in school but also being able to the school being able to support those clubs as well where necessary.

It's a two way partnership. And and we haven't quite nailed that as sports minister. I used to discuss this at length with Baroness Sue Campbell, who was at the Youth Sports Trust and who's now at the F.A. about how can we make sure that there are pathways that go from school into clubs and clubs back into schools and and and i just don't think we've got that right yet uh it's a really difficult uh challenge but funding is key um and and i think we ought to remember that at the moment things like the sugar tax is is helping support delivery of uh of some really excellent outside resource coming into schools and um you know we shouldn't necessarily just scrap that because it is, I think, providing a solution to many of the issues.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that what stands out to me from our perspective in terms of we're obviously at the top of our game and we've made a career out of our sport. But I think for so long in this country and how we, you know, Tracey, you said about how we perceive sport in general I think we've always seen it in it as a country as something if you're not good at that you can't do and I think now we see how much we talk about mental health and how much focuses on that and how much it can benefit you you know it might not be sport

it might be music for example you know whatever it is but I think sport is such a go-to for people and I think that link between the schools and the communities and that pathway in terms of if it's available, people will do it. And I think that's where we sort of miss out because we look at the numbers and we think, well, it's OK. And actually, it's one of the biggest benefits to anyone, even if you don't want to be a professional sports person. So many people go out for their own health and wellbeing-being for how they you know they want to look and feel about

themselves so I just think it's so important for society in general let alone we've obviously tailored it to women's football because it's something we're passionate about um but yeah everything that's been said it just it has to be has to be on the agenda yeah uh you're spot on Leah and it's something we will continue to talk about on Woman's Hour. Ellie Kirk and Tracy Crouch, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts as well. Now, we did ask sports minister Nigel Huddleston for an interview, but he said he wasn't available. Now, Leah, we've had some lovely messages come in about you since you've been on the air with us. Someone's WhatsAppped in to say, I'm 83 and I'm in tears.

What have we done to deserve Leah? She is a gem. That's lovely, actually. Sounds like somebody I'd love to go for a cup of tea with. Yeah. Someone else has said, we're really touched by the topic discussed about how sport is treated, especially on a policy level. Our men's team are allowed to take duty time to represent the force and take time away. However, it is a bit of a struggle for the girls

and I appreciate we don't compete in the league, but I think it shows we need a different way, a different view, sorry, on senior leadership level to encourage more activity. But it's again, it's that feeling that people are connecting with our listeners are connecting with this idea that you want equality you just want equal access to opportunity yeah i think so i think something that stood up to me once was that um there was a tweet after the euros it was really powerful and it was a girl in a princess dress standing

looking at the telly and the point is she doesn't have to want to be a footballer she just has to see somebody that looks like her in terms of being a woman achieving what I want to achieve on the big stage and believing that she can do it for herself as well so firstly we need to be accessible to these people we need to be seen um to to you know to have a chance of inspiring that sort of mentality but then secondly you, you want to be, like I said, every girl might not want to be a professional footballer, but it might do wonders for her mental health, for the way she sees herself, for how she progresses in her life because she was able and had the confidence to go and commit to a sports team

or to participate at one point in her life. And if it's not available and if it's chosen before she even has the choice if it's decided for her that she can't be involved what are we doing because how will she ever know if she wanted to be you know yeah well said well said that's quite I got quite my hands are really going you're very much expressing yourself but it's authentic and that's what people are relating to I think throughout the tournament when it comes to you Leah um let's talk about fashion because I know that's another big passion of yours there's been a few examples over the years where football and fashion have perhaps mixed um I don't know if you'll remember this

you probably will because you're an old soul but the Liverpool team in those all cream FA Cup final suits back in 1996 if you can call that fashion. David Beckham modelling underwear for Armani back in 2007. Those billboards stopped traffic. And during the Euros, just gone, we saw the return of bucket hats, which I absolutely loved. Everyone's on board with that. They are. Ella Toon loves a bucket hat. The two are merging more and more lately, it seems. And that's one of the ways you use to express yourself so let's bring in our next guest Emma Davidson who's a fashion writer from Days magazine and she's live from Copenhagen Fashion Week great that you could join us Emma now Leah is a big fan

of unisex fashion are you seeing much of that on the runways out there um we are yes i think more and more around the world like all the different fashion weeks um the kind of line between genders is becoming a lot more blurred um and the catwalks are a lot more interesting for it um but yeah definitely seeing that at copenhagen although perhaps not quite so much as say in london which is you know really strong on that and new york as well yeah what is it about the androgynous look that you enjoy so much Leah you're looking tip-top today by the way thank you very good thank you um I think I just enjoy that you can sort of look at a piece of clothing and it doesn't matter who you are or what you are and you can choose what you want to wear.

I don't know, I find that very liberating and living as unapologetically as possible, I think unisex clothing is a great way to express yourself in that way. And I just think, for me, fashion has to be comfortable and I think that's one of the best ways to sort of get a look that you want to get and still feel comfortable. Now, all of your teammates, England and Arsenal,

when I ask them, who's the best dressed in the team? Yours is always the first name that comes up. I pay them all before you ask them, that's why. Talk about the type of clothes then that you like to wear. I just, again, a bit like my music taste I don't really have a particular style um I would say it's quite masculine at times um but feminine in my own way so I don't know I think my clothes just always have to be if I see something and I like it I'll figure out how I want to wear it because it's an expression of who I am and um yeah like my you know my outfit I love my loafers

my white socks and my trousers and dress trousers and sort of polo shirts that's not your average it's not your every day but um it makes me feel good it makes me feel good. It makes me feel confident. And so anything that makes me feel like that, yeah, that's what I wear. Emma, can you imagine a day where unisex clothing is the mainstream and we don't walk into a men's section and a woman's section? I can, yeah.

I think it's going to be quite a long time before that happens. I think it's already filtering down like some of the most influential brands. There's a like a platform called List, which collates like the top brands, the most influential brands like each quarter. And so Balenciaga is up there. Gucci is number one. And on with both of those brands, like the line, as I was saying, the line between the genders is completely blurring. You know, the men are in dresses, the women are in quite masculine suits, etc.

And we see that filtering down onto like the shop floor, the high street shop floor at the moment. Logistically, it's kind of hard because there will always be the matter of fit, which is just, it's kind of hard because there will always be the the matter of fit which is just it's different um but yeah I definitely see it filtering down much much more at the moment and you went to your first football match uh recently um what do you make of the crossover between fashion and and football and also who did you go to watch I went to um see Tottenham Hotspurs and Southampton on Saturday and I felt quite out of my comfort

zone to start with but I soon kind of settled in it was really exciting I'm like desperate to go again already but so the kind of crossover between fashion and football is really exciting you know these like I've not had a major interest in in in football ever until the last few years and I think it's you know the people that are playing are very inspiring um and yeah it's it's really interesting that that fashion brands are bringing them in you know at days magazine we had we've always been fashion we've never been focused on sport or anything like that really and we had Marcus Rashford on the cover um two years ago um and yeah it's just it's it's I don't I wouldn't understand why they wouldn't and how it's taken

this long um because fashion and football have always crossed over you know there was the influence of like the casuals in like the 80s is still so prevalent in in fashion even now and inspires so many people like for example like raf simmons and even balenciaga again and it's always been there it's just that now the footballers are kind of being brought into brought into fashion or coming into fashion yeah it's clearly um something i think we're going to see merging more uh more and more emma davidson thank you so much for joining us on woman's hour uh think we're going to see merging more and more. Emma Davidson, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. Now, we're almost coming to time here, but first,

you may remember at the beginning of the Euros, here on Woman's Hour, we received a text from a woman called Sue Wyatt. Now, Sue was the reserve goalkeeper of the very first official England women's team and they beat Scotland in the historic opening game back in 1972 her team though weren't officially recognized so they didn't get their caps that's what's given to a player each time they represent their country so we made some noise about that on women's hour and rightly so and last month the FA said they would finally be awarding the caps to Sue and the rest of the team. And I'm so happy to say that we've got Sue on the line this morning. Good morning, Sue.

So from winning that match in 1972 to England becoming European champions in 2022, how excited were you to see Leah and the rest of the Lionesses lifting that European trophy at Wembley? Oh, it was just the most amazing thing ever. And Leah, thank you so much because like little Scarlett, she said you've stopped her from being invisible. You stopped us from being invisible as well. No, thank you. Thank you because without you we wouldn't be where we are.

I'm welling up again. I can't help it. You're going to make me go. Do you know, we were all in contact with each other still. And we were texting like mad. And every one of us was crying. Some of us couldn't speak. Honestly, you wouldn't believe to see that.

It was just amazing. And, yeah, so thank you, you all the team for taking it this far and bringing it home, as I say. I thought I'd be able to speak and now I'm just so emotional. Sues in tears, Leah. I'm close to going, to be honest. I'm sorry, yes. You're aware, aren't you, of the history and the women

that have paved the way for you to be able to achieve this success? Yeah, that's why I say thank you're aware, aren't you, of the history and the women that have paved the way for you to be able to achieve this success? Yeah, that's why I say thank you to you, because like I say, we're playing catch up. And right now we're in, you know, every year the game grows and we are in a better position than we were the year before. But for you guys to take that first step, to still have a passion for football, even after the ban was lifted, nobody would have blamed you to have left it behind because of the way that you were treated and to go out, do what you did, to still, you know, the recognition failed you for so long.

It's my responsibility. I stand on your shoulders. Without you, I wouldn't be where I was and the game certainly wouldn't be where it is. So you say thank you to me, but actually it's from me to you. And Sue, have you got your caps yet? No, but apparently we are going to the England-USA match.

We've only just recently heard. The FA aren't great in communicating, as you probably realise. We've had a few things on as well. I think we've made it harder, haven't we? Yes, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, so hopefully, you never know, we might see you there, Leah, if, yeah.

No, that would be lovely, actually. I'll make sure of it. That would be absolutely wonderful. As I say, we're all solid behind you and we think you've done an absolutely amazing job. Honestly, that means a lot to me, though, and a lot to the girls because we want you've done an absolutely amazing job. Honestly, that means a lot to me, though, and a lot to the girls, because we want you to know that we're not just running away with what we are now.

We know where we've come from. So it means a lot that you support us in that as well. Sue, thank you so much for getting in contact with us and letting us know about the original England team. And, you know, best of luck. And hopefully, Leah, we'll see you yeah give you a little wave and maybe meet up with you at Wembley for that game against the USA Leah we've come to time already that's absolutely flown thank you so much for coming on I have to say that your

your poise your composure your maturity has been a pleasure to have you made it easy for me I haven't done anything really it's been so much fun. Now, we know that you love music. We heard that you're the Lionesses DJ. So we want to leave with one of your go-to tracks to get the team ready, pumped up ahead of the match. Thank you for coming on to Woman's Hour. Thank you to everyone for listening.

And we hope you get pumped up by this track for the rest of the day. Oh yeah Cause you make me feel Cause you make me feel wild You touch my inner smile You got me in the mood So come on and make your move And free me

Free me Free me Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, woah, woah, woah, woah, yeah, yeah You made me feel You made me feel wild You touched my inner smile You got me in the mood So come on and make your move I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.