Woman's Hour - England Netball win, Body positivity movement, Author Emilia Hart

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

England have won the Netball Nations Cup for the first time after beating South Africa. It proved sixth time lucky for the Vitality Roses after being defeated in the five previous finals. To celebrate, Nuala McGovern is joined by head coach Jess Thirlby and former England Netball captain, Pamela Cookey.Last month, Eleanor Frances received a settlement of £116,000 from two Whitehall departments that she worked in as a civil servant, the agreement was reached without liability. She had claimed constructive dismissal after raising concerns about a lack of impartiality in HR policies on gender and sex. DCMS and DSIT are now revising their Gender Reassignment policies. In her first broadcast interview, Eleanor tells Nuala why she brought the case.With New York fashion week in full swing we take a look at the decline of the body positivity movement. As with everything in fashion, trends come and go but when the body positivity movement hit the catwalk and more diverse models were used many thought the change was here to stay. To discuss, Nuala is joined by fashion writer Victoria Moss and plus-sized model Enrika. Laila Souief has been on hunger strike for 134 days, campaigning for the release of her British-Egyptian son Alaa Abdel Fattah, who is being held as a political prisoner in Egypt. Today she is calling for the Prime Minister to take more decisive action in getting him released. She tells Nuala how she’s dealing with the hunger strike aged 68, and what she wants from the government.Inspired by the convict ships that transported prisoners from Ireland and England to Australia and the misogyny that’s travelled down through generations, Emilia Hart’s new book, The Sirens, explores the healing power of water and sisterhood.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petruzzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme. Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks it will take to feel truly alive.

If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. BBC Sounds Music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. I have been away covering the US presidential inauguration and then I did jury duty. But now it is very good to be back here with you. And on Woman's Hour, we're going to start with a win for England's women in netball their coach is getting ready to chat with us that in a moment

Also, two government departments have agreed to revise their gender reassignment policies after reaching a settlement without liability With a former civil servant that civil servant was Eleanor Francis We're going to speak to her this hour in the Woman's Hour Studio. Also, New York Fashion Week has begun. But where are the plus size models this season? We're going to discuss. And water. You can feel it throughout The Sirens. This is a new novel from Amelia Hart.

We're going to be discussing it a little later. But it's not just in her book. Water has also had significant impacts on heart's life from near drowning to swimming as recovery after a stroke. And I want to hear from you about your relationship and your experience with water. Maybe it's a love, a fear or a fascination of it. Maybe it's a place you feel totally at home or something that you always and always have avoided for whatever reasons. Maybe water is defined some aspect of your life like it did for Amelia Hart.

Well, whatever it is, whatever comes to mind when I speak about those things, I want to hear from you. You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Womens Hour, or you can email us through our website. If you'd like to send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 037001444. Also today, Laila Suif is on day 134 of hunger strike as she tries to effect change for her son who is imprisoned in Egypt. We'll also hear from her this hour.

But let me begin with congratulations to England's netball team. Now they have won the Vitality Netball Nations Cup for the first time after beating South Africa in yesterday's final. It proved sixth time lucky for the roses since the Nations Cup Quad series was established. That was back in 2012 after five previous defeats in the finals. Joining me is head coach Jess Thirlby and Pamela Cookie, former England netball captain and seven time Super League champion. Great to have both of you with us. Jess, let me begin with you.

Congratulations on the win. What do you think this means for the team, for Netball? Oh, thank you very much and thanks for having me on this morning. Yeah, it's really lovely actually just reminding ourselves of making another little bit of history with this group and it was a different group again. So some new, some exciting talent breaking into this squad.

So yeah, a really lovely achievement on our journey towards the bigger stages, both for Commonwealth Games next year and the World Cup in Sydney in 2027. So a good stepping stone towards that. So that's a good way to describe it, perhaps, for people that aren't as familiar with the various tournaments. But let's talk about the actual match. I saw 61-55, the final score. But you know, you're going into that, and I mentioned six time lucky,

five previous disappointing finals for the team. I mean, how do you go in and think, OK, we're going to win at this time? Yeah, look, it's interesting because actually that that kind of rhetoric didn't really play out in our camp. Like we're very much kind of like in the present, whilst history is it's important to sometimes look back. I feel like we're we've got a generation of roses now who are starting to turn the tide and know that they can compete

and believe that they can beat the best teams in the world and are doing that more so. And some of our younger players like a Berry Neal who came back onto court and made a big difference for us yesterday. She's only really been around the team since, you know, seeing us beat in Australia or New Zealand several times or these top nations.

And so they're just very hungry and believe that they're capable. And I think holding on to that psyche is important. So if looking back means we're dwelling on previous results, then it's got no place, I don't think, for this team. They they really want to strive forward and be the best they can be. So, yeah, it's exciting times for the team. What a gorgeous term, a generation of roses. Yeah, true.

But let's bring in Pamela here as well. So you were at the match as a commentator. What was that like? Oh, it's so good working with Sky, the way that they've brought netball from when I first started playing to what it is now, it's just epic to be able to bring it to the fans and them see it live and see these amazing roses players just do their thing on the court.

It was, I was on the edge of my seat. I won't lie that first quarter, they were three nil down. I was like, oh, well Sunday repeat itself, but no, you keep the faith because they came out fighting. And it was just really great to see, as Jess said, those youngsters really step up when it mattered. And you had the experience of a Beth Cobden and Imogen Allishen who didn't

play on Saturday back in the squad Sunday to kind of give that stability and then your youngsters you bury Neil only 11 caps to her name and Liv Sheen 27 caps but she's still so young at 24 but she was a leader in that attacking end and so many players I can mention player of the match Fumi Fudoju, just coming out from Inceptions from nowhere, across the board, and it just really lit up the game. And it was great to see how they bounced back, how Jess and the team, from Sunday, you expected to win this based on world rankings, being second in the world. But no game is a given. But after Sunday's loss, to come back again yesterday and get that win, phenomenal.

Let's talk about the bounce back. How do you do it, Jess? What are you telling those women before they go out? Yeah, it's been that they're such a brilliant group. We're really seeing the maturity in the way in which we review and reflect on games. And we kind of immediately after the game last weekend, we were hungry for the one or two areas that we knew that we had more to come. So we didn't kind of like overplay the defeat. We knew that actually we wanted to win when it mattered the most and that was a final and so we treated this weekend as a semi-final

and final which it was and for this team we've got to put ourselves in games like that and actually I think the fact we've been toe to toe with these teams, South Africa have been really impressive and as I say we've lost almost the whole of an attacking end in the last couple of months and yet we've uncovered talent that's still able to compete and win and that's a really healthy place to be. So we got back to the drawing board, really great sessions, very clear in terms of one or two tactical areas that we wanted to bring out a little bit better this weekend and I think overall we did do

that. We wanted to start strong, stay strong, and finish stronger. And I think in elements both in matches and in between the games, we've shown very quick learnings. And it's certainly an area that we want to keep making sure we can adapt within the game as well, which sometimes we're a little bit slow to do. But I've seen a great progress made over the last few weeks in that.

So some of the aspects, and Pamela was mentioning this too, Liv Cheen, for example, named player of the series after a standout performance scoring 49 with 100 accuracy. It's people like her you make the decision for example to play her but you did also have a controversial decision to leave out your captain Fran Williams. Talk us through making those decisions and I don't know how you manage to stand firm or explain. Do you have to explain? Yeah, look, I think this group are brilliant in championing each other and Fran and Fomir are a great example of the talent that we've got that are both brilliant in that gold

defence bib. And I think over the course of we've played 14 international matches this year across the top seven teams in the world. Like it's been an incredible international season, it's told us a lot. And, you know, Fran and Fumi played together when we beat Australia in Australia in what will be the World Cup venue. So we've had to explore different ways in which we can see them both out on court together, but also coming into this series, we felt it was really important to allow them both time in that goal defence bib.

And consistency in training is really important. And, you know, I said to Fran, Fumi had to put in a huge player of the match performance to keep her off the court. But Fran is very humble. You could see from the sideline, she was up and about her team, but we've got great options there. You know, Fumi has previously played at wing defence, we've done that before. Fran, we know, can play behind Fumi now, that's something we learned a few months ago. This series was about also providing opportunity for other defenders in that goalkeeper bib in particular and looking at new partnerships. And sometimes the cost of that is obviously, as you saw yesterday, Fran didn't make it on the court,

but she was the first one to congratulate for me. And I think she understood that there was, you know, deep in the game, there was no way we could pull for me off. She came alive in the second half. So it obviously, we love Fran. She's a brilliant captain. And I did say to her last night, being a captain is easy, being a leader and at the very heart,

the best team player is not and that is Fran and she completely epitomises that for us. What about that Pamela? I'd be curious for your thoughts on it as a former player and captain. Yeah, well no one wants to be on the bench, you want to be out on the court playing don't you and especially as captain but what's so great about Fran as Jess was saying is that she is such a team player and it's clear what her job was yesterday and yes it wasn't being one of those sevens on the court but it was still supporting the team still giving them information from the sideline still being the biggest fan club and and

that's what you need from a captain to know that it's not it's not about well any play is not about you it's about the team and what will help the team win today and what or what will help the team progress for that ultimate ambition which is Commonwealth gold and World Cup gold and that's the journey they're on and fair play to Fran, I think she's just been immaculate and when she has been on court she is fire and so you can't even tell you that the fact that Jess now has these options that she can play only makes the roses even more stronger. You know, we had Baroness Sue Campbell, who became the new chair of England, Nepal. And when she was on the programme, she talked about wanting to give the team the opportunity to be the best in the world.

I'd be curious for both of you on your thoughts on that. Pamela, you mentioned Commonwealth gold, you mentioned World Cup gold, for example. Do you think that's with insights? I think definitely. Well, we saw at the last World Cup England are getting into the final, getting that silver medal the first time it's ever been done. And so that next step, we won a Commonwealth Games back in 2018 on the Gold Coast.

So it's not like it hasn't happened or can't be done. And we've been steadily building over the years all the plays that came before and the coaches have had that impact and it's in the grasp, it's what happens when you get out there and then you step on to that court, it is definitely possible and I think having Baroness U Campbell come into the mix now, her love of netball is so clear to see and how what she's done with women's football, how can we get that into women's netball so that we can make it more professional, we can get more time, get more support and resources that puts them on the best footing so it then just becomes about

what you do on the court, not everything else that happened before it. I know when I've spoken with our listeners there's this huge love of netball among them Jess, but what do you think it will take now to get to that level that we're speaking about? Yeah, look, I think we're tracking really well. I think one of our greatest advantages over the other top nations in the world at the moment is the number of times that we're getting out on an international stage to understand and play that intensity. I think we're on a real journey with our Super League, which kickstarts on the 8th of March with the Super Cup. You know, there were 18 NSL players represented across this Nations Cup across all teams, and I think we've got some work to do just to make sure that the intensity and the quality

of both our domestic competition and what we do in Roses is speaking to the demands that we know and have learned it's going to take to win in a World Cup final. And there are some steps to take. And I think as a collective, we're going to be stronger together for both growing the game from a Super League perspective and then also making sure that we keep hitting out. We've never avoided playing the best at their best. And I think that is something that served us really well

over the last few years. So we need to keep doing that as a roses group and we'll really enjoy and support the growth of our NSL as well, which is super exciting exciting and we're now on the eve of that. We come out of our international season and look forward to what will be a brilliant new Super League 2.0. Hopefully a little bit of rest in between the two. Jess Thirlby, thanks very much and Pamela Cookie.

Jess is the head coach for England's netball team and Pamela Cochie, former England netball captain and seven-time Super League champion, thanks to both of them. Last month, Eleanor Francis received a settlement of £116,000 from two Whitehall departments that she worked in as a civil servant. The agreement was reached without liability. She acclaimed constructive dismissal after raising concerns about a lack of impartiality in HR policies on gender and sex. The Department of Culture, Media and Sport and the Department of Science, Industry and Technology are now revising their gender reassignment policies and Eleanor joins me in the Women's Hour studio this morning for her first

broadcast interview. Good morning. Good morning, it's a pleasure to be here. Now why did you join the Civil Service in 2019? So that any civil servant gets to work on these enormously important questions. It's a fascinating job. And I think that really no one does it quite as well. So, I wanted to be part of something that was the best, best organisation evaluating these really big questions for people. And the sort of area that you worked in? So I worked in infrastructure policy. When did you become aware of the gender identity and intersex policy that was being adopted at the DCMS?

So I became aware of this in 2022. And what this department did is introduce it's a HR policy. And it says that people must always be treated as the gender with which they identify, and that if you don't accept somebody's gender identity, well, that's transphobic. And that's actually a really big problem in the civil service, because as an organization, we're supposed to be impartial, we're supposed to be neutral on these matters, but this is quite a big political debate, it's a big political controversy and here we have a government department taking one side in that debate but not just doing that, also compelling their civil

servants to do the same. So I became concerned about this. So at the heart of it your objection was about impartiality or lack thereof as you saw it. Yes I think there are two big issues here. The first as you say is the lack of impartiality when approaching these questions and then the second is a discriminatory issue against their own workforce. And I want to put this in context for our listeners when this was happening. It was happening. It was happening a year or so after the Maya four-stater tribunal ruling that found that

gender-critical beliefs are protected under the Equality Act. And people who hold gender-critical views are those who take the view that biological sex cannot be changed regardless of an individual's gender identity. How did the policy that you are describing, which was coming from HR, as you mentioned, affect your decisions about your career? So I felt that I was in a double bind because these were HR rules that required Because these were HR rules that required acceptance of this one set of beliefs, but not just requiring acceptance, but saying that opposition to that, thinking the opposite thing is transphobic and saying that puts you at risk of disciplinary action.

And I felt as a civil servant where I have a duty to be impartial on these matters, I couldn't take one side of this debate. I wanted to be able to recognise that there are two sides without risking that disciplinary action. And what did you do? So I raised concerns about it and I raised that up to leadership. But not long after I raised those concerns, in short, my job was taken away from me. And so ultimately I resigned, citing constructive dismissal, and I brought a claim through the Employment Tribunal. So I'm really pleased that we have now reached settlement.

So you did, and that was just to put it also just a timeline for our listeners, you ended up leaving that job in the summer of 2023. That's right. Was it a difficult decision? leaving that job in the summer of 2023. Was it a difficult decision? It was a difficult decision. I genuinely wanted to be able to stay as a civil servant. I raised those concerns because I wanted us

as an organization to be taking the right approach to this so that we're serving the public well, but also so that I could fulfill my duties well too. And so it was a hard thing to do to leave, but by that time in the summer, I raised these concerns to leadership and they'd said that they weren't going to be taking any action to address them.

I had lost my team and most of my responsibilities. And that had been a restructure designed by people I'd actually named in the complaints that I raised and ultimately I was going to have to comply with these HR rules that I thought were wrong. How did you fund your case? So mostly I funded it privately but I did also crowdsource and I'm incredibly grateful to the people who financially supported me to be able to bring the case. I think it's a very generous thing for them to do, and it made a really big difference.

A settlement, as I mentioned at the beginning, was reached in December, announced publicly just in January. That was of £116,000. Without liability, I should also mention. that was of a hundred and sixteen thousand pound, without liability I should also mention. Your thoughts on that result? So although obviously the financial settlement makes a really big difference to me and it was the full sum that I sought, but actually the thing that's most important here and I think the thing that's important for other people is that the permanent secretaries of those two departments

signed a statement committing to revise those policies that were such a problem. I think that's that's great news And you have faith in that review So i'm i'm hopeful. Um the statement goes on to reaffirm the commitment that the civil service has to impartiality and also to freedom of speech, which is so essential. Let me read a little, actually, of the statement, Eleanor.

This is the permanent secretaries of the DCMS. That's the Department of Culture, Media, and Sports, and the DSIT, Department of Science, Industry, and Technology. They issued the joint statement together, as Eleanor mentioned. They said, we are committed to fostering a tolerant and respectful working culture. As such our departments are working together to introduce a revised gender reassignment

policy informed by a new central model policy which will anticipate, which we anticipate forgive me, will be available by the end of the year. In accordance with the Equality Act of 2010 the revised policy will balance the rights of staff with different protected characteristics including, but not limited to, gender reassignment, religion, belief and sex. Do you appreciate that it can be a difficult tightrope perhaps to walk? I think there are lots of different views on this and that's entirely reasonable and that's why being able to speak about it is so important. It's only being able to talk about difficult issues constructively that we're able

to collectively come to the right answer here. But I'll explain why the this policy was so pernicious in the Civil Service. It said that not accepting somebody's gender identity is transphobia. And it wasn't limited to just your colleagues. It could be in any context that would be applicable to you. So that's going to prevent civil servants from being able to express the other side of this debate. You talked about the gender critical term there. If you can't express the other side of that debate

without being thought of as transphobic or without that side being considered transphobic, then a civil servant is going to self-censor. If a civil servant self-censors and they don't represent that perspective or they don't represent it fairly, what they're actually doing is they are censoring every single member of the public that holds that perspective to. So in the civil service is a big issue. There will be also others that have different opinions as we know it's an area with very strongly held and sometimes incompatible views. Did you ever worry or ever doubt what you were doing or worrying about upsetting a colleague for example?

So I have absolutely no desire to see anyone upset on this issue. What I did is actually raise my concerns privately and confidentially. I didn't want colleagues to be upset if that's what would have happened to them. But I think that because the department had adopted a language and a framework, a way of thinking about this issue, they did misinterpret at one point the concerns that I have, which is that they thought that I was saying that some women don't want to share single-sex facilities with someone who is transgender they thought that I was saying that some women don't want to share single-sex facilities with someone who is transgender. Now that's not what I was saying. I was saying that some women don't want to share single-sex facilities with somebody who is male,

whether they are transgender or not. Most women wouldn't have a problem with sharing with somebody who is transgender but biologically female. So I think by not being able to use language which is clear or understand from a different perspective they thought I was saying something which I think people would reasonably think was upsetting but it's not what I was saying. I'm saying that some women don't want to share single-sex businesses with male people. And I talk about potentially upsetting colleagues but what about you? What has the toll been on you personally about bringing this case as we talk about potentially upsetting colleagues, but what about you? What has the toll been on you personally about bringing this case as we talk about, we're

talking about a couple of years now really, aren't we, when we began talking about 2022? Yeah, it has been going on for quite a long time and it feels like a big weight has been lifted to have reached settlements and to reach a settlement which I think is good news for the civil service too. You know, I raise these concerns because I wanted to be constructive about this issue. But I did find that losing my team, that I had recruited, I trained, losing the role that I enjoyed and was good at. That did feel like a really big

loss. Many civil servants have talked to me about feeling afraid to speak up and I'm sad to say that possibly that's a reasonable fear to have. I don't want that to be the case anymore and I think that the place that we've reached with the settlement will help civil servants to feel more confident. Elinor Francis, thank you very much for coming in to speak to us here this morning on Woman's Hour. Lots of you getting in touch on water. I was asking you about this a little bit earlier, we're going to talk about it a little bit later on one of the novels, The Sirens, which we will be discussing. And here's one from Kelly in Oxford. She says, I grew up not far from the ocean and I love to stand on the shore and watch the vastness of the water. However,

I cannot swim. I had lessons as a child but could not float. At family gatherings my uncle used to sneak up on me, pick me up and throw me in the pool. It made everyone laugh, frightened me. I love the water, but I'm also afraid of it and I still cannot swim. Thanks for that message. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I'm Sarah Trelevin and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.

I want to go to fashion next, though. New York Fashion Week, two very fashionable ladies in my studio already. New York Fashion Week is in full swing and there's a lot of chat, you might have seen this, about the size of the models that are participating in the shows that we see. As with everything in fashion, the trends, of course, they come and go. But there was, of course, the body positivity movement. It hit the catwalk and there were more diverse, more curvy models used and many thought that change was here to stay.

We're going to get into it. But apparently the statistics are saying that is not the case. So what does it come down to and does it matter for those of us who don't buy high fashion or couture labels or if we don't sit at the front of the catwalk, front rows? We have Victoria Moss in with us, fashion writer. Hello, Victoria. Hi.

And also plus size modeled, Enrica. Welcome to you both. Hello. Thank you for having me. So I was kind of taking a look over the weekend and you do notice that models are, to be very thin walking down the runways But did was there a proper shift to a bigger size do you think in fashion? Um, I think in reality the shift has been fairly small certainly in terms of runway

You know, we have had a period over the last sort of 10 ish 15 years where they have casted sort of curve models on runway, but it's always been fairly tokenistic. It's always been a couple of girls here or there. And there was certainly more momentum behind it than there is now. And I think sort of post pandemic we've seen and you know, Vogue Business and Felicity Haywood both do a sort of round up every season of the numbers of girls who are walking and sizing and they've certainly plateaued or decreased in the last couple of years. Can we talk about what sizes they are exactly Victoria? So a curve well there's a mid-size model which is probably about a size 10, 12. And then a curved plus-size model is generally around a 16.

Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering, Rika, do you like or not like any of those terms, curve or plus-sized? I do not mind them because I do not see them as a bad thing. Yeah. I think bodies come in different sizes, in different shapes. There's beauty in every single size, so I do not mind it. But it is a little bit strange when you think about it because you have agencies that cast

plus-size models and generally they are sizes 8. So that could be considered plus-size? 100%. Depending on the agency, you could have models as small as a size 8 considered plus size because they are not the sample size that they normally require so anything above that would be considered plus size. And I'm wondering Victoria because body positivity I mean how would you describe it the body positivity movement? I mean I suppose it's a movement that with the rise of social media and just the internet in general There's a lot more visibility on who we're looking at and then there's a lot more opinions about who we're looking at So what's happened in that vein is that people have become more outspoken and you know

Rightfully wanted to see bigger broader representation kind of across the board whether that's ethnicity or diversity in size And so you've had this movement which has been like you know getting people to embrace their bodies and accept their bodies more than anything and to not have that sort of endlessly finding fault and wanting your body to be a different way which is you know a sort of futile playback of it's not going to change. So I think you've had a big movement towards that which has had an impact and certainly on the high street and smaller brands and

newer brands they are catering to a wider selection of women so you can find more clothes that fit. But I think the impact of that has been with the rise of Azempic and the sort of... Which is a GLP one there's various other brands Azempic is perhaps the best known but it's a weight loss drug that people can lose weight quite rapidly yes and I think with the growing awareness of that and the growing sort of media attention given given to the sort of injectable semi-glutides I think that has kind of spurred on you know a reintroduction of these kind of fat phobic attitudes that people are having.

And it's kind of reaffirmed that sort of core belief that to be thin is the best way to be and the only way people should be and should be looked at. Enrica, what has your experience been? Has it changed over the past couple of seasons? It has. I've never actually done runway because I am plus sized, but I'm also short.

So I've always been on the commercial side of things. There was always an imbalance in the bookings when it came to plus size models. It's very usual to see a campaign with five models and four of them are slim. And then you have one diversity high in a way that is plus size. So there's hundreds of girls just trying to get that one spot that is offered to us. And considering that it's going backwards It means a lot of reduction in terms of jobs and you've seen that yeah. Yeah, we have myself my friends I don't feel it as much because I do have a full-time job that I cater to and then modeling is on the side

So I wouldn't change anything about myself to be part of the industry I do value my physical health and my mental health above any career that I would choose. However, for models that do it full time, it's very harmful because most of the models are based in cities like Milan, Paris, London, New York, very, very expensive and they need to make a living. I'm just taking a look at some of the figures here. You're mentioning Vogue Business Publishing, its inclusivity, size inclusivity report. So it said this for the 2025 spring summer in New York, London, Milan and Paris of nearly 9000 looks presented across 200 shows, less than one percent

used plus size models that have UK 18 plus, 4% were mid-size that you had mentioned that term 10 to 14 and 95% were UK 4 to 8. So we've mentioned Ozempic Victorian kind of fashion is fashion right something is in or something is out but what else could it be down to? I mean, I think when it comes to luxury brands, which are what we see on the runway, they have such a low opportunity for risk in a sense that they're working on a balance sheet that they can't make too many errors without failing. As we know, so many luxury brands go under and which is quite different to the high street for example they can make thousands of units

of a certain dress in various sizes and some would say that high-end brands don't have that same margin of error to play with. I think yes and no I think it's actually interesting especially in London it's the smaller brands that are really pushing forward with body positivity and having a much broader casting in their shows. And it's the bigger kind of, you know, huge conglomerate brands which generally speaking don't and they're obviously the ones that have the funds to be able to cast different models, make different size samples. So I think there would be ways of doing it. I think what's inherent in

fashion is sticking to this very thin ideal of what the beauty ideal is. And I think for all this kind of talk of fashion is about what's new and what's next, it is, but it's always within a very rigid frames. You know you go to the fashion shows, do you feel any change that came in and left or was it never really there anyway? There were changes, there were definite changes and there were shows and brands which would cast you know I mean there's always been a handful of curve models like Ashley Graham and Paloma El Sessa. They're kind of the biggest stars of that industry. Yeah, so there's a handful of them anyway that are kind of the big names.

But definitely the casting of those girls has gone down. There is a lot of diversity with a couple of the shows that I watched when it comes to ethnicity and also even age with many of them. Why do you think, Enrica, that it's really the size that does not continue to have that diversity? I think it's because it's such a traditional way of doing fashion, first of all. So a lot of people are connected to that traditional idea of models being very slim, very thin. Secondly, I think it's just a bit lazy of designers because they work with a mannequin and it's just easier for them to do everything on sample size and they're used to it. So perhaps working on a body that has a bit more curvature might be a bit more tricky, a bit more difficult. So that's another

reason. Probably a bit more cost effective for a bit more tricky, a bit more difficult, so that's another reason. Probably a bit more cost-effective for them because it's less garment that's being used. But other than that I don't really see any other reason and it's worth mentioning that when it comes to the age diversity, a lot of the models that we see are celebrity status models. Yes, that's totally fair. A lot of them I've seen, I was like, I recognize that person from somewhere. Exactly. So they kind of hold weight to their name and they are there as a marketing technique almost because they have their own followers and people love to watch their shows perhaps to see Adriana Lima, you know, but someone Adriana Lima's age that is not very popular

might not make it to the show. I understand she kind of has that history behind her. And what about those, you know, that talk about, it's very interesting, fashion being too traditional when it's meant to be the thing of what is new. But for those, and you will have heard these arguments previously, I'm sure that showing plus-size models or people that have more weight on is not appropriate or a healthy ideal to put forward. We do know, this is according to NHS England for example, that 29% of adults are living with obesity, 64% overweight. And that should not be showcased a bigger size. Your thoughts, I'll start with you, Enrica, and then I'll move over to Victoria.

I do advocate for health, personally. I think it's wonderful to be healthy and whatever that looks like to you. We need to understand that the average size of women in the UK is a size 16. When we are looking at fashion brands, whether the stores or perhaps even catwalks, we are looking for clothes to actually wear. So we want to see them portrayed in people that are actually our size.

And just because you are skinny doesn't mean you're necessarily healthy. This is not something that is talked about very much, especially in women with conditions like PCOS and demotereosis, etc. They might be leading a very healthy lifestyle but it doesn't necessarily reflect because they are unable to lose weight due to these conditions. I think it's unfair to judge people just on a glance and say that someone that is skinny is just healthy. Not to mention that women have died on runways because they were malnourished in the past so we don't really have that argument. Of people that have disorders. Victoria? Yeah, I think, yeah, I completely agree with Enrique. I mean, I think there's also a lot

of data about weight stigma. And I think we have to get to a point where we accept that people are different sizes, they're short, they're tall, they're bigger, they're smaller. That's just genetically how we're all made. And you know the sort of the problem with only having one beauty ideal is that it makes it a very rigid form for women to sort of think they have to fit into which causes issues across you know the size spectrum whether that's kind of encouraging disordered eating. I mean there's people taking these semi-glutide drugs to sort of get into sample sizes and to drop a dress side.

That isn't what they're intended for. So I think it just opens up this kind of hornet's nest where we're constantly evaluating what women should look like and also putting a sort of, you know, putting an opinion on that and stigmatizing them and so I think it's a really dangerous, pernicious place to go. And if you're just saying women should be this super skinny, super tall ideal, it's just unrealistic. Victoria Moss, fashion writer, plus size model. Enrica, thank you

both for coming into us here in the Woman's Hour studio. I just want to return back to the item we were speaking about previously with Eleanor France as a former civil servant. I did also want to read a statement from a government spokesperson who said on the issue of the case that she had brought that it dates from August 2023. It has been settled without liability as we had mentioned. We are committed to fostering an inclusive working culture that allows civil servants to safely hold, voice, discuss or challenge any lawful perspective without fear or favour. Thanks for all your messages that are coming in, in relation to water.

Here's one from Rosemary. I suffer from a severe skin condition and she names what it is called, forgive me my computer's just gone a bit on the blink, Congenital Ecthesiosis. Water, she says, is my lifeline. I live in dread of us having a water emergency. I have to take a bath every day, sometimes twice a day. Water is medical for me. Thanks very much, Rosemary. Really interesting you telling that story because when we get to The Sirens, that book, there's a lot about skin and water as well. But before all that, on Thursday we have a real treat for you. Yes, we all recognise the music because as part of the EastEnders 40th anniversary, Anita Rani will present Women's Hour live from the set of the Fox and Hair Salon in Albert Square.

This special programme will celebrate the Soaps track record of featuring strong female characters and exploring some of the most pressing, contentious and emotional issues for women over the past four decades. Our guests will include Diane Parrish, who plays Denise Fox. Her love triangle storyline will be at the centre of The Soaps live interactive episode. She'll also be joined by Kelly Bright, who plays Linda Carter and Michelle Collins, who plays Cindy Beale. So you do not want to miss it. You will find it right here at 10am on Radio 4. And that is on Thursday. But let me turn next to a woman we spoke to last in November.

It is 68 year old Leila Souyef. She remains on hunger strike now for 134 days. She's campaigning for her son Ala Abdel Fattah's release from prison. He is in jail in Egypt and he is one of the country's most high profile political prisoners. Leila started her hunger strike on the day that his five year sentence should have ended in September last year and today she's calling for a more decisive response from the government. I spoke to Leila just a little earlier before we came to air before she headed down to Downing Street and I asked her how she is feeling 134 days in. I mean I think I never expected this. It's a miracle that my body has held out for so long, but I really never expected this

should take so long. It shouldn't have. My son finished his sentence. The Egyptian and the British governments are allies, friends. It really shouldn't have taken so long. But it does continue. Can you explain what it is that you are taking in? You're on hunger strike. What do you allow yourself to take? Okay, I take water, salts, you know, what to give to children when they have diarrhea. Yes, like rehydration salts.

Rehydration salts, exactly. And some herbal drinks, mainly tea without any sugar or... No, the point is I take no calories whatsoever. Yeah, no calories whatsoever. So how are you in your body after 134 days? Well, now I've become very, very weak. It takes me ages to get my clothes on. I've got so much weight. My weight now is 124 pounds. I haven't been this weight since before I had all that, since my student days. So, since you had your son, so you've lost, I was reading about 30% of your body weight. But with this, and you talk about the weakness that you feel and how long this is going on, are you considering stopping?

No, I can't consider stopping. Nothing concrete has happened with respect to my son's imprisonment. He's still in Egypt. Nothing that actually impacts him. So I mean, I've had all this solidarity and I've had all these assurances by the British government that he's a priority, but nothing has happened that actually impacts him. So I can't consider stopping. But you've talked before about this drive to continue until you see significant change

for your son, Allah, and that it being really a maternal drive that you have. Can you explain that a little bit? Yes, I think basically I believe that all, first I believe that all mothers are, or most mothers anyway, maybe not all, but most mothers are willing to risk their lives for their children. In my case, since Allah has been arranging us in the out of jail for the past ten years, all our lives, not just mine but my daughters have and even the rest of my family, brother and sister, all our lives have been going around that for the past ten years. It can't go on in the final call, I'm 68.

I've had a full, a very full and very rich life. I had a good marriage. I had a good career. They, their lives are stopped. They need a life. If it takes my collapse or even my death to provide them that, I'm willing to do that. I have to do that. I cannot imagine this continuing.

So this is what you're doing, but what is it that you're calling for today, Leila? I know how things work in Egypt. They work top to down. So someone has to persuade Mr. Sisi to give the green light for the release of my son. That someone is, I think, Mr. Stalmer. Because he's the one who can talk to him directly or I believe who can talk to him directly. I've been standing outside Downing Street every day, every working day for some weeks now. I got a letter from Mr. Stonra, or Mr. Smotin. I mean, he could have just come out and shown some sympathy, or granted me a meeting. I'm sure he cares, but I need a public sign of that so the message gets across to the Egyptian government. I need him to

recognise the fact that I need to reunite my son with my grandson. You mentioned there Sisi, you're talking about the Egyptian president, Abdel Fattah al-Sisi. But if you did get the meeting with Prime Minister Stammer, what is it that you would say to him? Well, first I would say to him that my grandson is autistic and he's now settled in a very good school, a very good special needs school in Brighton. I don't want that disturbed, but my grandson is now 13. He needs his father. Ala needs to be let out of jail and go and come here and settle with his son in Brighton.

Have you seen him? My last visit was on the 8th of January. His sister saw him at my uncle's daughter. She saw him on the 30th. We get a letter once a week. The visits, by the way, are just 20 minutes behind the gloss barrier and everything we say is through an intercom so it's monitored but still it's better than nothing. It's certainly better than a lot of families in Egypt are getting. I would imagine, and you tell me, that Alaa and also your daughter who has been on this program previously must be very

concerned about your health. I mean, do they try and stop you from staying on this hunger strike? They know me better than to try and stop me. So they've just had to support me, but it is very tough on them. It is very tough on them. Leila, Soif is speaking to me there earlier. We did ask the government for the response. A spokesperson from the Foreign and Commonwealth Development Office said, our priority remains securing the release of Mr. Al-Fattah so he can be reunited with his family. We continue to press on his case at the highest levels of the Egyptian government. This includes the Prime Minister writing to President Sisi on multiple occasions and the

Foreign Secretary raising the case with the Egyptian Foreign Minister a number of times including most recently on the 23rd of January. Now water. I want to read another comment that just came in when I asked about your relationship with it. This is from Carmen from Saltburn by the Sea. My dad was an inshore fisherman on small wooden boats. The sea was our life. He taught me and my sister how to read the sea. I lost him when I was just 19.

I couldn't go to his grave for years. Instead, I went to the sea. That's where he is. His love and fear of the sea has defined me and how I raised my son with the same respect for the sea. Why are we talking about that? Because we want to talk about The Sirens next. This is a new novel by Amelia Hart and there is water throughout it.

It brings us to a murder mystery in a coastal town in Australia. It also brings us on a female convict ship leaving Ireland to make its way to Australia. There is fear. There is fascination with the water. I've been asking you about your stories and your relationship with it this morning. But Amelia Hart, welcome. Hello, thank you so much for having me. So you took inspiration from your family's history for this book. Tell us a little bit how. Yes I did. So I'm Australian as you can probably hear from my accent and on both sides of my family there are kind of resonances with this story. So many of my maternal ancestors were

Irish women who emigrated to Australia during the famine. But I discovered a few years ago that one of my paternal ancestors was actually the captain of a convict ship transporting Irish men and women from Cork to Australia. And I think I felt that this really, this story that I decided to write really kind of encapsulated both sides of my family history. So I was really drawn to the experiences of the Irish female convicts. Yeah, I hadn't read about them before. I was fascinated you used some of the Irish language as well, it's woven into the book. But with the convict ships, these female convict

ships that people may not be familiar with, that they would be traveling from Ireland to Australia on, what did you discover about them? Yes, well it's a really interesting part of Australia's mythology and our history. And you know, I learned that although conditions did improve for convicts over the years, because it's important to say that transportation went on from 1788 until the 1860s, some of those early voyages would have been very tough indeed. So conditions in the prison deck would have been extremely cramped, noisy, very hot, little natural light, and

there would have been the foul smell of the bilges sloshing below. And we do know from some of the primary sources that there was a lot of the women who were traveling as convicts did have to engage in sex work in order to secure more rations. And that led to this kind of misconception that Australian female convicts were all, as they used to say, whores. And I think that's had an impact, perhaps, on our national consciousness. I mentioned the name of the book is The Sirens. How would you describe a siren to those that are unfamiliar? So I would say that a siren is a mythological sea creature, part

woman and perhaps part fish or some other sea creature, who is able to lure men to their watery deaths. And I think I wanted to call it the sirens because I wanted to sort of nod to the fact that across different cultures, humans have drawn this interesting connection between women and the sea. and that really fascinated me. Yes I had a listener that was just in touch about how she has a skin condition and the only way it can be solved is by bathing in water a number of times a day. There's a lot about skin and scales and water and two sisters in present day and then these are the two sisters that are in the female convict ship. But I'm also

curious about you and water. I've read you almost drowned female convict ship. But I'm also curious about you and water. I've read you almost drowned when you were two. Yes I did. So I almost drowned in my in my parents backyard pool. Obviously being so young I don't have a concrete memory of this but I did have recurring dreams for many years as a child where I could see the sunlight sparkling on the surface of the water but couldn't move. And my parents told me it was because of this experience I'd had. So that was one, just kind of getting into the, you know, how it permeates the book but also your life. And I also read you a stroke when you were just 26. It must have been so frightening.

Yes, I did. It was a really difficult time for me. But actually, water having almost killed me as a baby did sort of become a lifeline for me after the stroke. Because as a child, I'd been quite a keen swimmer despite this experience, but that had sort of fallen by the wayside. But during the recovery from my stroke, my sister took me swimming at our local Lido, which was at the time London Fields Lido. And yeah, just swimming just became a way of reconnecting with my body and sort of regaining some confidence. Yes, and you are well now. I am. Yes, yeah. It was very shocking. I was reading a little that it just happened to you at a party, the stroke that took place and of course being so young and healthy, that it's

not something that you expected or any of your friends that were around you? No not at all and I think you know a lot of people aren't aware that young people can even have strokes. I mean I certainly wasn't aware for me this was something I associated with with the elderly and I don't think I even really understood what a stroke really was that it was you know a blockage in vessels in the brain which led to brain damage. And yeah, so it was a huge shock but I'm happy to be able to be well and to talk about it now so that people can know that young people do have strokes unfortunately. We did a whole program on sisters and if people want to check it it is you'll find

it on woman's arrows a whole one hour that we. But you have a sister that I think brought you to the swimming pool after your stroke and you seem to have a very close relationship with her, Andre for, I'd forgotten the word in Irish until I read it in your book. But what is it about that relationship that fascinates you so much? Yeah, well, I think, you know, growing up

with my own sister, who I have to say is basically the best person in the world, that's my sister Katie. I hope she can listen to this from Australia somehow. I think I'm sort of fascinated by the sort of closeness that sisters have and the parallels you have when you're kind of growing up, you're sharing a childhood together, but you might have different versions of the same experience. And I think as well, for me, having a sister has been like having an inbuilt best friend, you know, we're very different in many ways, but we have the same reference points and we're alike enough that,

you know, we'll just always have that connection and I'm really grateful for it. It's gotten me through the darkest times in my life, my sister. So, yeah, I feel very lucky to have her. And she will of course be able to download and listen to this online as well if she's not up at this hour in the morning. But with the book you use magical realism to tell this story and just in our last minute or so I'm just wondering why you use that particular genre to try and get across what you want to tell. Well I think, you know, I was very conscious that the whole convict story, it's actually

quite a dark and difficult chapter in Australian history. And something that I learned from writing my first novel, which is about witch trials, was that in order to take the reader to these very dark places, you have to kind of shine a light to guide them along the way. And for me, magic realism is that light that enables me to tell these stories, but in a way that they feel more accessible and perhaps more hopeful. I really enjoyed it, I have to say, and you're kind of going back and forth and so many of the issues that come up of that young women are going through, but then also taking a look back as well.

I want to read a couple of our comments that come in. you might enjoy these as well. I'm always calmer and happier by the sea, even in the cold, the rain or raging seas. The smell of the ocean and the sound of the waves seems to have a reset effect on me. That's Michelle in Nottingham. Maybe something you'd relate with? I definitely do. But here's a different one. A mains water pipe burst on Saturday night in the next village, resulting in us having zero water in the house. So much water in the puddles and the mud outside, but having to wash up, clean teeth and attempt to flush loose with bottled water is proving very challenging. My relationship with water today

is in a bad state of play. And one more, obviously a touch of nerve. Being in the water brings me an incredible sense of peace and calm. A sea swim changes my mood and lifts me out of a fog. I might be in and resets me. Well that is a little way to leave it. Amelia Hart thanks so much for joining us on Woman's Hour and I will be back with you again tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, Greg Jenner here. I am the host of You're Dead to Me from BBC Radio 4. We are the comedy Join us again next time. of Catherine of Medici of France, we are looking at the Arts and Crafts movement and the life of Sojourner Truth and how cuneiform writing systems worked in the Bronze Age. Loads of different stuff. It's a fantastic series. It's funny. We get great historians. We get great comedians. So if you want to listen to Your Dead to Me, listen first on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevin, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.