Woman's Hour - England Rugby, Olivia Chaney, Lauren Elkin

Episode Date: May 20, 2026

In November 2024 Harshita Brella's body was found in the boot of a car in Ilford, East London, approximately 100 miles away from where she lived in Corby, Northamptonshire. Now her family have arrived in the UK to appeal for renewed action by police in the stalled investigation into her death; bringing the alleged murderer to justice. Nuala McGovern is joined by Harshita’s sister Sonia Dabas and Poonam Joshi, founder of Indian Ladies UK who support Indian victims of domestic abuse.The England Rugby team now has 38 straight victories, 8 Six Nations titles, the Rugby World Cup title and a world number one ranking after their latest victory in the Six Nations yesterday. The BBC pundit Ruby Tui said they may just be the best team ever, in any sport. But is their dominance hurting the game at large? Nuala is joined by Katy Daley-McLean, who was captain of the England team when they won the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup.Folk and classical singer-songwriter Olivia Chaney has collaborated with some of the biggest names in folk music, including Shirley Collins and Richard Thompson, and her The Queen of Hearts collaborative album with the Decemberists was Grammy nominated. She discusses her current album and how it felt to have her music included in the box office hit film Wuthering Heights.Vocal Break: On Women, Music and Power is the title of the new book from Lauren Elkin. For millennia women singing were cast as sirens: mythical creatures who lured sailors to their death. But in this part memoir, part feminist manifesto, Lauren Elkin explores how women from Cyndi Lauper to feminist punk rockstar Kathleen Hanna to Beyonce have used their voices as women to defy convention, genre, capitalism, racism and sexism.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Andrea Kidd

Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and welcome to Women's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme. I think England's Red Roses are probably still celebrating this Monday morning. They are world champions. They beat France to win their eighth successive women's six-nation title and fifth straight Grand Slam. We're going to have Katie Daly McLean, former captain of the Red. roses in just a moment. But also today, we are going to listen to the singer-songwriter

Olivia Cheney. She's going to perform for us this hour. I have just heard the sound check you are in for a treat. Also, staying with women's voices, Lauren Elkin has a fascinating new book called Vocal Break on Women, Music and Power. Lauren says that a woman using her voice is like getting naked in public. Well, I've made a living out of using my voice, but I cannot count the times I have been told off for being too loud. Now maybe that resonates with you. Or do you find it hard to speak up?

Have you ever altered your voice to fit in? I would like to hear your stories. Maybe like Lauren, you found your voice through singing. How was that? Or are you still holding back? You can text the program. The number is 84844 on social media. We're at BBC Woman's Hour.

Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. use the number 0-3-700-100-444. And also this hour, I speak to the sister of Harsita Barella, whose body was found in the boot of a car in Ilford, East London. Her family have come to the UK, they say, to campaign for justice. Harshita's sister tells me what she hopes will happen. All that coming up.

But let me begin with this track record. 38 straight victories, 8-6 nations titles, the Rugby World Cup title and a world number one ranking. There really is no stopping the England women's rugby team after their latest victory, as I mentioned in the Six Nations yesterday. The BBC pundit, Ruby Toos, said

they may just be the best team ever in any sport, but is their dominance hurting the game at large? Well, let us chat with Katie Daly McLean, who was captain off the England team when they won the 2014 Women's Rugby World Cup. to have you with us this morning, Katie. I mean, what do you think about what Ruby said, the best team ever in any sport?

I mean, it's a pretty great compliment from a player of Ruby's quality and given that she was a Kiwi and a Blackburn probably gives it even more weight. I think she's pretty accurate, to be honest. I know we win the World Cup in 2014 but we couldn't go win the following Six Nations. It's the first time kind of

an English team has held both of those trophies. So they are a very impressive group. And what is it, do you think, that is, I suppose, solidifying that success for them? Is it a particular player, an ethos? I think it's probably a bit of both. I think probably what they've done this campaign has come through so much adversity. You know, we know England are very, very dominant. They have a marvellous program in comparison to the other home nations, but to have lost something around 12

players either to injury or pregnancy and to be able to do with such a young group. I think that's the thing that really sets them apart from the other home nations. Well, let's talk about that. Ireland finished. There are six nations that was with a dominant display

over Scotland. So they were third. England, France. Ireland, third, Scotland. We had fifth as well. Wales coming in. Did not win a single game in that final spot. Is there a danger? that England's dominance is making the game a bit boring?

I think it depends on who you are. As a Red Roses fan, no, but I think probably if you look at the game at the moment, one of the biggest, I suppose, criticisms has been there's not enough jeopardy in the women's six nations. Realistically, it's always been England are going to win it. Could France stop them? This was probably France's best chance, I think,

given the players England didn't have it available. And if anything, the score line is growing from last. year when there was only a point in the game. But what about that? Like how do you, here's a philosophical question, how do you introduce Jeopardy to the game? It's a great question. I think if anybody had the answer, they would have done it.

I think the biggest problem what happened at the moment is the quality of what the Red Roses are producing at all levels throughout the game is so far advanced than the other home nations. And it is some way we've got to find of allowing the home nations to improve their strength and depth so they can be competitive. You know, you look at PWR

so the women's English league and the quality of player that's producing for the Red Roses is probably one of the things that's setting them apart. But rather than the Home Nations putting teams in and look that might happen in the future,

they're almost taking their girls back home where their leagues probably aren't as developed and aren't as strong. So it's literally about having that diffusion perhaps of talent more widely across the nations. Yeah, I think so. You mentioned France there, obviously, did not pull it out of the bag in the way they might have hoped.

Canada has been spoken about as well in the World Cup final last year. But who could stop England, do you think? Who should they be looking over their shoulder at? New Zealand are always going to be the team, I think, because there's such rich rugby heritage, and they've kind of always held a bit of weight of England. I think Canada and New Zealand are probably the top two when you come to the Global Series tournament in the autumn where there might be more jeopardy

but at the moment this England team are absolutely dominant. Do you feel that England and the Red Roses like get their props in the sense of people are so used to them winning that perhaps it doesn't make the headlines that it could potentially if it was somebody who wasn't so expected to be to. top of that table? I think it's a great question. And we talked yesterday about are they the best team in the world

across any sport? I think the problem is the opposition that they're facing. But realistically, you can always only play what's in front of you. So I think probably an answer to your question, yes. I think there is such a great expectation that this Red Rose team will just win regardless if it's a World Cup of Six Nations or a friendly that maybe they don't get the praise they deserve for the dominance that they've shown in our game. And I mean, that's the players we've talked about, right, where they have this I suppose really concentrated

centre of excellence with these players. But what about the other people that are making that happen? Because it's not just the women obviously that are catching and running with that ball. It's the infrastructure around them. I mean, is that infrastructure, can it be replicated in the other nations?

I think what they are if you have done extremely well as a governing body is they've gone and spent money. They've invested in their women's game and now they are they are reaping the rewards of that. Maybe not financially, but from a perspective of this is what you can do if you invest in women's sport and you really buy into it. You don't just invest in it for six months here and a year when a tournament comes around.

You heavily invest for years and years before that. I think the problem is I'm sure all sports find is where does this money come from? And how do you ensure that it's in the game long enough and having maximum impact before you get a return? And you talk about the investment. What about the attendance, viewing figures for Six Nations? We spoke a lot last year about the World Cup, but how would you compare at this point?

I think it's been absolutely fantastic. And I think Red Roses, again, been brilliant. But to see 30,000 at Murrayfield for the Scottish girls, for them to be able to come home, I know the result wouldn't have been what they wanted, but as an occasion, there was over 31,000 at their Viva on Sunday for hours. I think that change in how the Home Nations are being perceived at home is a wonderful marker for the strength of where the women's game is right now.

And some people are just beginning to get interested in it and it's always fun to have somebody to hang your hat on. You know, the one to watch. Who would be your standout player of the Six Nations? That's a great question. I think if your Home Nation, somebody like Enneifer for Ireland, she's been absolutely brilliant. You know, she stands out, nice big,

red scrum hat, somebody you can track and watch. I think from a leadership point of view, Meg Jones has done a great job for England, you know, stepped in. So he, Stratford was pregnant, and she's done it in her style, which I think is always interesting, is a new captain. Do you try and mould? Meg said, no, look, this is who I am and who I'm going to be and come and follow me. But I think they're probably your two standout players, Maddie Faye and Artie from a very traditional rugby perspective. She's got through a huge amount of work. I want to read a comment that came in. Ruby is right, and I suppose we could say Katie as well.

England are the greatest team of all time. They just don't get enough credit, sadly. You can imagine if it were the men's team. We would never hear the end of it. And they don't even need to deal with being pregnant. Well done, the Red Roses, says Andrew, who got in touch. What about that? The comparison. Again, it's women's sport, isn't it?

I think we can't end up getting ourselves down this rabbit, because I'm never sure it ever works well for women's sport. All we can do is focus on what we're delivering. And as a product, women's rugby really is delivering. The numbers are showing that across the crowds, the growth, the feel of being at a game. It is so different to a men's game. It is very family-orientated. It's accessible.

It's cheaper. And I think what we've done there, what the game has done, to really make it inclusive to its audience, as one we should celebrate, not worry about what's happening in it with the blazer guys that go down to twicken them on a Saturday. They have their own audience. Women's rugby is carved. It's fan base, and it's a very loyal fan base. Katie Daly, McLean, thank you so much for joining us from Paris this morning.

And for the rugby fans, mark your cards, the unstoppable Ellie Kildon, who won player of the match yesterday. We'll join us here on Woman's Hour next Wednesday. That's the 27th of May. So next week to discuss her incredible career. It's charted in her new autobiography. We're all looking forward to hearing from her. I want to read some of your messages came in on voices already.

The opening line of my preschool report says, Joanne can be a bit loud when she's excited. 25 years later, this is still true and I don't plan on quietening down anytime soon. Glad to hear it, Joanne. Here's another. I am a 24-year-old living and working in France. I often go out

with my colleagues who are also Scottish or Irish and American. We were in a local Irish bar and hysterically laughing. We got told off by some older women and I was mortified. I felt like I was being told off at school. The concept of being too loud in a pub was new to us. We're often shushed by older women when we go out. I think we are enjoying ourselves too much.

Well, I can definitely relate to that. 844, if you'd like to get in touch. Now, here's something else that you might like to get in touch on. We are looking ahead to the Springbank holiday. And we're going to take a break from business as usual on the program and put our head into the clouds and go in search of wonder. So we want to know where do you find. wonder. What makes you go wow? Is it music? Is it nature? Sporting triumph? Recovery from a long

illness, perhaps. And how do you hang on to that feeling, that feeling of wonder? Share your awe-inspiring moments, whether they're big or small. Same ways to get in touch 8-4-844 on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Or of course, you can email us through our website. I'm looking forward to speaking to you all about women and wonder. Now, you may remember some details. about this next story. It is a very sad one. I do need to let you know on the 14th of November in 2024. It was just a day after Harshita Barella's family contacted UK police to say they had not heard from her since the 10th of November. And Harsita's body was found in the boot of a car in Ilford, East London. That was approximately 100 miles away from where she lived in Corby in Northamptonshire.

Police believed that Harshita, who was just 24, was murdered by her husband Pankash Lamba, who fled to India soon after the killing and is still on the run. Now her family have arrived in the UK to appeal for renewed action by police into what they say is the stalled investigation into her death. They want to bring the alleged murderer Pankash Lamba to justice, they say. They believe greater efforts should be made to locate him. Earlier this morning, I was joined by Harshita's sister. Sonia Dabas, and Puna Mjoshi, who's founder of the Indian Ladies' UK group

who support Indian victims of domestic abuse, particularly migrant women who moved to the UK after marriage. I began by asking Puna to explain the background to Harsita's story. Harshita got married to her husband, Pankaj Lamba, in an arranged marriage. And soon after she moved to the UK, Pankaj was here on a student visa and she joined him. as his dependent. Within weeks of Hershita arriving in the UK, she was pushed to

start working immediately and she was forced to do long hours and the dreams that she had brought with her of starting a family, perhaps visiting places in the UK

they were all failed because she was quickly pushed towards working and concentrating on earning as much money as she could, doing long hours, no rest, and she wasn't allowed to socialize with anyone, she wasn't allowed to make any friends. The only person she really knew was Pankaj. And they were living in a small town called Corby. And so her life meant home to work, work to home. And coercive control started almost immediately where she was restricted from doing.

Within those first few weeks, within the first few weeks. And since she didn't know this man before getting married to him, it was all coming as a surprise. and like a good wife, she was listening to him. She thought he knows better. I need to obey him because I'm on his visa. Some of these women, they also sometimes surrender because their visas are attached to their spouses. So she had to listen to him.

And her job was to earn as much money as she could. And all of her money was being taken away by him. She couldn't even buy a chocolate. for herself. She loved buying chocolates from what I heard from the family. She wasn't allowed to buy a chocolate. She wanted to buy an ice cream one day. And he said no for that. And she was earning good. And these details are coming out now. It was an arranged marriage. And so she did not know him before she came to the UK. Sonia, thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. I'm very sorry for your loss. Tell me a little about your sister, Harsita. You were her big sister. Yeah, yeah. What was she like? She's just a pure soul and she's very kind nature and a very soft nature and she's very family-oriented person.

You know, she's lived so far but she's deeply connected with our family. And she's just very innocent person. And when she was heading off to the UK, was she excited? Yeah, very excited for your UK. And when she got here, as you say, you spoke, but did she tell you anything about the problems she was having at the beginning? No, she don't tell anything about their life. She's just a strong person.

She just thinking, I will manage everything. So she don't want to worry about the family, the mum or papa. So you weren't concerned at all or worried? No, we know all things after the domestic violence. After domestic violence. because let me come back to Poonam now for a moment, because before Harsita was killed, she had filed a case of domestic abuse against her husband.

Tell us more about that. It was on the 29th of August when Harsita was physically assaulted by her husband and she was thrown out of her marital home and she was literally running on the streets and that's when she made the call to her father. saying she had been assaulted, she was crying, and she was fearful of her life. And she remained on call with her father until one of her colleagues came to pick her up. And she was taken away that night.

And the following morning, with the help of her colleague in whose house she had stayed that night, she made the police complaint. and the police then issued a DVPO order. And that's when her husband was barred from contacting Harshita for 28 days. And that was the first time Harshita took a step towards reporting her husband's abuse either to her parents or to the police. It must have been very shocking to hear what your sister was going. going through at that time.

Yeah, it's very shocking, but I appreciate my sister courage. She took a legal action. And she, Poonam, documented the abuse that she had experienced, I understand, through a letter. But it is a very upsetting list of what she went through in that time. It is indeed. And that was those details she had shared with the police here. and she quickly took a photo of that and she also sent it to her family back home.

That was the first time the family got to know the details of the severe abuse that she had endured in the past six, seven months. Which had led to a domestic violence protection order, a DVPO, but that did expire as you talked about 28 days later. What happened then? On the 1st of October, DVPO expired, which meant Pankaj was free to contact Harshita again. And from what I hear from the family, Pankaj had already, during that DVPO order, on the 13th of September, had a video call with Harshita where his family members were also part of that video call,

where Harshita was pressurized into taking the police complaint. back. Retracting it? Retracting it. And Harshita, from what I hear, did try, but the police said they might not necessarily retract the police complaint. It might still go ahead. But once that order expired, it meant Pankaj was free to meet Harsita again and Harshita was okay to meet him again.

When ideally it should have been a non-molestation. and Hershita should have been placed far away from that borough where her perpetrator lived. None of that happened. And instead? Instead, she lived minutes away from her husband, continued to cook food for him every day, left food, cooked food for him in a tiffin outside his home, and kept doing that. And she was still forced to do those wifely duties. despite being a victim of domestic violence, despite wanting the protection.

And her, if you have seen that list that she shared with her family, it clearly says her husband is threatening to kill her. Sonia, explain why you are in the UK today. Because no support from their UK police side and UK government sides because it's an 18-month pass away. and there's no update in this case. Pankash is roaming freely in India because we think he's in India

because we saw the clips was withdrawing money from Indian banks so that's why we are saying in India but officially police is not saying he's in India why they are not announced and why are not saying he's in India? I don't know. So UK police is just saying

that okay we are doing we are doing our best but I don't think so I can't see any new updates. I understand Sonia that you went to the house where Arshita lived in Corby and walked around the area

that was her neighbourhood. You were with your parents doing that. It's a very sad path to take. It's more painful. I can't explain when I saw the place there, Pankaj home, near to Pankaj home, the car is parked

and my sister's last breath I think she took in this car, that time, that place and after that ill fur, when he parked the car. And this is very painful. And when I visit to my sister home, that time I feel she came inside and just a wave to hand, say, hi, sister, I'm here. But there's nothing like that. Very, very difficult journey to make.

Poonam, the family were due to meet with the Northamptonshire Police. Has that happened? It hasn't happened yet. It's happening next week in the coming days. What do you want to say to them, Sonny? They hide many things to us. And I just want to say when they came to India in July, they're not shared with us. So why they are hiding many things to us? We have a statement from the detective superintendent.

That's Johnny Campbell, the senior investigating officer that said it has been and remains an exceptionally complex case that a murder investigation was launched following Harsita's death in November 2024 and in March 2025, 24-year-old Pankash Lamba Harsita's husband was charged with her murder with criminal proceedings active in the UK were unable to go into detail about the case

the investigation however is very much ongoing. I don't think so because investigation is going much more. No, no, there's no update in this case. What action, Poonam, do you think, the family are hoping to see the UK government take? It has become a multiple jurisdictional matter now because the alleged murderer left the UK soon after and has gone to another jurisdiction.

They obviously expect from both the country's police, including India and the UK, to work together actively and there should be a team set up that should work towards, catching this person who has reportedly been seen in India in New Delhi running a small shop. So if he's able to live that freely after being in India and still not getting caught, then it is a matter of concern.

So from what I have heard from the family, Indian police tells them it's a matter for the UK British police to handle and the British police tells them the person is in India, we have limitations. A home office spokesperson said that our deepest sympathies are with Harsita's family and friends for their

unimaginable loss. No one should have to go through what Harshita and her loved ones have endured. As this investigation is live, it's vital we do not comment further. To do so could prejudice the investigation and the path to justice for Harshita and her family. The UK will neither confirm or deny

when it comes to an extradition policy, for example, whether an extradition request has been made or received. So that part we don't know. So the case continues. I understand you have a six-month-old daughter now who you've named Harshita. Oh, yeah. Hachita's nickname is Switty.

So I just call her Sweetie. That must be very special, though, too. Very special because I just feel that my sister come back to me. Really? I'm really glad that you get comfort from that. And your family, how are they? Yeah, they just feel that the daughter has come back.

They also feel, and they just get a hope for life. Sonia Dabas, the sister of Harshita Borella, who is murdered in the UK in November of 2024, also with her Puna Mjoshi of Indian Ladies UK. We also wanted to make sure we acknowledge that in November of 2025 the Independent Office for Police Conduct said that for North Hamptenshire, police officers should face misconduct proceedings over their handling of Harshita's case

and I do want to say if you've been affected by anything you may have heard during that interview, you can go to the BBC Action Line where you will find links to help and support. Now I was asking you about voices. We're going to talk, hear voices, talk about voices. Here's one I just wanted to read. This is from the noisy wood family.

They say we're a very loud family and we have a saying that originates from an ex-partner that didn't last unsurprisingly. Indoor voice, babe, indoor voice. This is shouted across tables whenever the other starts getting a little bit loud. I have lots of loud listeners, I think, from some of the messages that are coming in.

We're going to talk about that with Lauren Elkin, the voice in its many iterations for women in what means in just a few months. minutes time. If you watch the recent film of Wuthering Heights, you will have heard my next guest. She is musician and singer-songwriter, Olivia Cheney. Olivia has collaborated with some of the biggest names in folk music, including Shirley Collins and Richard Thompson, and the Queen of Hearts collaborative album, which she did

with Decemberists, was Grammy nominated. You're very welcome, Olivia. Hi. We're going to speak to you in a moment, but one of the haunting songs from Wuthering Heights is the traditional folk ballad, dark-eyed sailor, and it appears in pivotal scenes between Kathy and Heathcliff. You're going to play a small section for us now in the studio, and you're also going to play the harmonium, which is a treat for both of us to listen to your voice and it. How beautiful, Olivia, come over and join us at the table. It's just mesmerizing, haunting and beautiful.

I read that when you heard your voice singing dark-eyed sailor in the film Wuthering Heights, it reminded you of giving birth. Yeah, I think, Nula, that's one of those things you say in an interview and wish you hadn't. It's been repeated now so many times. But it's wonderful. I mean, the thought of it, because I did read that you gripped your partner's hand. I definitely gripped his hand, yeah, which I did do during childbirth as well at home. Yeah, it was just, it was genuinely quite a shocking moment because there was such a build-up to sort of knowing

that my song was going to be used in the film and so a lot of anticipation, a lot of negotiating and then suddenly you go to the premiere and actually because of the nature of the film and even the novel, you're so sort of engrossed in it that it's almost as if I forgot that my voice was going to come in at some point. And also I'd sort of been told

like there'll be orchestration around but actually, obviously, maybe at the last minute, they decided not to. So it was just the way in which my voice came in in the film was quite shocking. I think even for someone who it wasn't their voice, if you didn't mean. Yes, no, completely. It's a stark use of it.

But I think even when we hear that snippet there, it brings us into that mood and that time, even without the visuals in front of us. What does the song mean to you? Oh, I mean so much, too much to even explain on this show, I think. You wouldn't have time. But it's one of,

the first trad folk songs that that I learned after I'd graduated and sort of studied music or all my childhood and all my life. And, you know, I was really trying to delve back to what I felt was at the root of a lot of my favorite songwriters and even a lot of my favorite composers. Like so much music felt like what's the kind of raw essence of it in a way. And I feel like in the broadest sense, folk music, you know, that that turn. is a very broad umbrella term, but to use it broadly, I think that is at the root of so much music that we know and love, so many genres. So I started delving back into British folk song, and that song, yeah, somehow, and at the same time, someone introduced me to the Indian harmonium, an amazing Irish musician called Matthew Ord, and he just turned up at my house one day with a harmonium.

And so the two things kind of came together, and I, yeah, I just gigged it so much, and was sort of playing. to crowds who weren't really normal folk audiences. I loved sort of playing in little clubs and bars around Hackney that, yeah, they weren't trad folk audiences. Maybe a little more alternative. Yeah, yeah, totally. But tell us more about the harmonium, because as I look at it, I don't think I've seen one before.

Right. Yeah, so my one... Maybe we could describe it a little bit as well, just for the radio listeners. Well, they're a bit like folk music. They're a very, very interesting instrument because they were actually brought over to India by missionaries from the West. France and England and as portable organs to play church music.

But then I think what happened, there's not a huge amount of documentation that I found on this, but I think essentially what happened is, you know, native Indian people started making them in small factories to probably sell back to the missionaries and the colonizers who were living there. And then the most wonderful thing happens, which is then this Western instrument with a its Western church modes gets incorporated into devotional Sufi music, kowali music, and it becomes an Indian instrument. So it's this crazy thing. If you watch, you know, the great famous koali singer, Nozratu Khaalai Khan,

he's singing in all these microtonal, amazing Indian scales, but he's playing effectively a little church organ. That's what they are. So it's an amazing instrument in that way. And, you know, you've alluded to, obviously, having this wide interest in so many types of music or genres, but you did train classically, I understand. Yeah, yeah, I did.

Although it feels like what I grew up with was so broad. And then I was sort of learning things by ear off the radio. And then I think my parents very sweetly realized, oh, like maybe there's something we need to kind of nurture it here. And then they took me to lessons. Then I sort of back to front, learned how to read music, was in a great choir. And then after all of that studying,

I then rebelled again and was like, I want to teach myself guitar and do folk songs. And yeah, so it's sort of full circle in a way. So you've released three albums, another on the way. We're going to talk about that in a moment. The last one was Circus of Desire, I love the name. And that was the first album, as we talk about childbirth as well, after becoming a mother. Yes.

I wish is the last track on the album that you're going to be performing for us on the piano, Jordan Hunt on violin, standing by. What is that about? Well, I tried to write the ultimate breakup song, I think. And that album... meaning like of a partner or for romantic yeah quite a literal breakup song but that album actually most of it is very sort of familial themes and delving into relationships within family there's a song about my daughter sort of for my daughter on there so in a way it's a strange one to end the album with

but i guess like lots of artists to make records um i guess it's felt like a natural closing song because it's sort of working back to front. So it's sort of that relationship ended and then the sort of next phase of my life began and the rest of the album is about the rest of that phase, if you sort of mean. And a circus of desire. Yeah, I like that title.

I do too. When I came up with that title, I had to, I thought, surely someone will have used it and I googled it. And actually, it wasn't, there was one slightly obscure, dubious looking novel, but other than that, no one had it. So I was like, I'm going to take it. It throws up so many images, doesn't it? A circus.

of desire. Well, why don't I let you go back over? We're making you work double time here. Olivia, she's going to head over to our grand piano in this gorgeous studio of ATA. And as I mentioned, live performance of I Wish, Jordan Hunt on violin. So beautiful. Amazing to have your talent. Do you come back over, you're getting your steps in with us this morning. It's very moving that song. It's, I suppose, you trying to leave. particularly stuck by Time is a great healer and times on our side. Do you believe that time is a great? Well, it's funny you picking up on that.

If my husband's listening, he'll be cracking up. Because when I was writing the song before I went out to New York with our little baby, because I was meant to record this album when I was pregnant with my first child, and then COVID happened. So then we had this incredible experience where we went out there with our little girl and had a ball for a month. But anyway, when I was trying to write the song, he would sort of, because my studio,

inverted commas, is our front room. And he would sort of knock on the door and be like, Times a healer. And I'd be sort of thinking, yeah, I know, it was a huge cliche, but I think I can get away with it. So, yeah, I think, because then the second kind of refrain, I'm bringing in my mum reading me the Norse mythology as a kid. And so the Times a Weaver is a sort of reference to the, you know,

the women weaving your fate. So I feel like that balances the cliche of times a healer. No, I'm also seeing, though, you've so many references in your work. You finished your next album, which is due out next year called Sons of Art. So that is a reimagining

of the music of the 17th century composer Henry Purcell. I listened to it as well over the weekend, which is very beautiful. And it's kind of a play on a birthday ode, I suppose, of Purcell of Come You Sun. of art away. Your music doesn't sound like it was something written in the 17th century,

but I want to know about your reimagining or why you use that as an inspiration. Well, I think he, I mean, it is partly just a natural thing. I feel I have this strange affinity with Purcell, I think because I sang his music from a very young age. But I think there's something particularly interesting about music pre-enlightenment. And it relates to the way we use the voice as well.

But I think the kind of 17th century, I think there's just more connection, sort of town and country, you know, court and the bar room. It just feels like in that music, there's something quite important for me that we've perhaps lost post-enlightenment, post-also recorded music,

where everything gets very segregated and the way you use your voice, you know, then you have the Belcanto technique. And so, you know, whilst I love a lot of early music, sometimes when I want to go and listen to a recording, I mean, there are lots of wonderful recordings, but sometimes I just want to hear a voice that sounds less trained. And even though technically I am a trained singer, I've spent so much of my life thinking about how to use my voice

in as as natural to me and my speaking voice away as possible. And I thought it, I always felt like with Purcell in particular, also because of the way he, the amazing way he writes for the English language. I think he just has a way of setting words. It's very cool and very particular to him. And so I just thought, why not bring, you know, sort of show that that music is just as relevant as a folk song might be or like a pop song is today and bring it into sort of 21st century realm.

A lot that you've just said, I think our next guest. has been listening to intently. Olivia, you're going to stay with us, which I'm delighted to say during our next item as well. You're going to be touring throughout the summer, though. I want to let people know, and you can hear those tracks in her forthcoming album, Sons of Art, Pursle.

But lots of messages coming in on the voice. I mean, this is the theme, I think we have, going through the programme today. Here's one. Who's this? This is Alison in London. I can remember at four years old, being told to just listen during singing

as my voice was too deep. We can hear you separately from everyone else. This recommendation came from a nun at school. It still burns. Now I'm 60. Ironically, my dad was a tenor. And I can't tell you so many messages coming in about people's relationship with their voice,

whether it was speaking or singing. Here's another, I teach voice for speaking. I have noticed that people are often more confident when singing than speaking. Sharing's when thoughts and ideas feels exposing and risky for, money, but maybe it's possible in a song instead. And why are we

talking about all this? Because I want to turn to a new book by Lauren Elkin. Vocal break on women, music and power. So for millennia, as Lauren has been exploring, women's raised voices have been heard as unruly,

uncivilised or even dangerous. Women singing were cast as sirens or those mythical creatures who lured sailors to their death. This is part memoir, part feminist manifest And Lauren goes into fascinating detail about how women from Cindy Lauper, she's a huge fan, to feminist punk rock star Kathleen Hannah or Beyonce, and how they've used their voices to defy convention, genre, capitalism, racism, sexism, pushing back against all those aspects.

Lauren, welcome to the studio. You've been here the whole time with Olivia, I have to say. Oh, and what a joy. Oh, my God. I literally was like on the edge of tears before. I had to compose myself. It's so beautiful, so beautiful. to listen to.

I want to go back. I'm quite struck by that message we got about the four-year-old because I know when you were a child, you grew up in Long Island and you were having singing lessons as a child. It was a very big part of your life. Yeah, I was one of those really annoying kids who's just always singing, you know,

always like, listen to me, look at me, look at this dance I learned at summer camp. And I would, you know, also listen to the radio and try to sing like the people. I heard or try to figure out the song on the piano. And I just, yeah, was sort of an exhibitionist as a child. But the title, Vocal Break, I wasn't familiar with that term. Yeah, that is a term that has haunted me my whole life. I'm sure Olivia can, sorry, my voice is going, can attest to this. It's this, it's the place in your voice where you shift between registers. So I'm speaking to

you right now in my chest voice. I could also speak in a falsetto. And there's like, you know, if I were singing from chest into head, there's a place where. you sort of have to do a little bit of gymnastics, like putting your car from first to second or something. And there's a little hiccup there. And when you're training as a singer, you're in the sort of classical tradition that we've just been talking about, you're encouraged to sort of make it as minimal as possible

and either bring, you know, well, mostly bring your head voice down into the chest region so that it just sounds like one extensive voice. So not to have that little flip, recognizable to those that are listening. But it haunted you a bit. Oh, it did. Well, because it's sort of a question of technique.

You know, how good of a singer you are will be measured by how, among other things, how well you manage to navigate your vocal break. And messages continue to come in, 8444-8-4. You say in the book, and this struck me I mentioned at the top of the program, that a woman using her voice is like getting naked in public. It's a really good image.

Yeah, thanks. Thank you. I spoke to a lot of friends who were singers and to singers as I was writing the book. And everyone, 2-01, said, it feels so vulnerable to sing in front of people I know. I would rather, sorry, we've all been sick in my house. I would rather sing in front of 200 strangers than in front of you right now. It is just such an interesting. What is that, do you think? I think there's something kind of vulnerable in the singing voice. And there's something about, you know, like the soul, I, I think, you know, I would venture to say that we're afraid of escaping and it's not cool, you know, generally to be singing in a very earnest way. You want to sort of, unless you're a professional singer, obviously. But you have to obviously get to that point. You know, none of us begin as professionals. Olivia, I'm wondering your thoughts on that. Well, so many. I mean, one of my favorite quotes in your book is through vulnerability then comes power.

And so I think for me as a singer and someone actually who was a kid, was maybe my parents might disagree with this, but I felt like I wasn't so exhibitionist and actually I was just so interested in the purity of the music that I used to sort of feel like I'd rather go on stage with a paper bag over my head, I just want people to listen. And so I've had to kind of learn how to bring the performative element but I guess with my style and who I am

and what I think about the voice and the kind of songs I write and sing is I want it to always feel natural and authentic. which I know as you write about is like potentially a kind of whole construct anyway but yeah I think singing is both naked but also through that as you talk about that there comes a kind of power if you're prepared to get naked so to speak

yeah exactly you may get that power tell me about the mermaid the little mermaid oh you know it's so funny so that's a theme that runs through the book is The Little Mermaid I was obsessed with that Disney film when I was younger. And I was just thinking as I was listening to your song,

The Dark Ride Sailor, how funny that we're talking about sailors and mermaid. Yes. But yeah, so the Little Mermaid, the film, there's the woman who voices the part of Ariel, Jody Benson, is someone who had a really major impact on me as I was sort of in my early teen years and trying to figure out what to do with this vocal break. And I realized, I figured out how to mix, how to sort of combine the head voice with the chest. voice from listening to The Little Mermaid. And so that sort of clit for me.

And I went on to, you know, do a lot of musical theater and sing in a voice that felt sort of comfortable. And then, you know, stopped doing theater and stopped singing altogether. And then a million years later was out with some friends and a woman who was in, you know, has a career as an indie singer. And we were drunk and we were going to be doing karaoke. And I sang a little bit of Lana Del Rey. And she said, oh, you sound just like the little mermaid.

And I was like, what? Like, yes. You're right. I do sound like the Little Mermaid. And she meant it in a nice way. I was going to say, what did that mean to you? But I took it really kind of badly. I was like, oh, God, she's saying that I have this like Disney Princess voice, you know, very uncool, not an indie singer kind of voice at all. But like, you know, I sounded like a trained musical theater singer. But this is interesting. What is cool? What is acceptable? What is the correct? way for a woman to sing. You get into, in your book, Lauren, about some of the rules and expectations put upon female vocalists

and the ways they fought against them. Polystyrene is one by racial working class singer from South London. I loved you talking about Viv Albertine, lead guitarist of the punk band The Slits. I did see a little quote on the front of the book as well, which I'm sure was brilliant. And tell, because a female singer in a group of men and women was often a muse or a groupie. I remember that line from your book.

Yeah. And so, you know, I was looking at this sort of tradition of women saying, women singers saying like, you know, I'm not going to be your muse or your groupie. I'm going to make my own kind of music and use my voice in a way that feels, and this is polystyrene's word, effective. So polystyrene is a great example of someone who. trained classically and so had this great big opera voice that she would, you know, later deploy when it suited her. But she thought, you know, she had braces and was not trying to make herself look, you know, tiny and pretty and sing in a way that would be very pleasing. She was trying to use her voice and her look and her platform as a singer, as a punk singer,

to really challenge ideas about how women were supposed to be and supposed to sound. And I think she's amazing. I loved the chapter. with Cindy Loper and Madonna. And I was like, I think I was into Cindy Lopper at the time more than Madonna. My friend was Madonna. Now I suppose Madonna in some ways has eclips just being that kind of global icon that she is. But I went back and listened to all of Cindy Lopper's albums over the weekend. I forgot how much I loved them.

But that concept, and I remember this very much, that there was only space for one woman to be top of the charts, for example, at that time. Yeah, I mean, a lot of what I'm writing about in this book, I think, is the way that women's voices have been sort of manipulated and controlled by the music industry. I think Joni Mitchell at some point said something like they didn't want people who were interested in singing. They wanted people who were going to be compliant and obedient. Yeah, she had a really rough time to think she. Poor woman. But so Cindy Lopper, I think, really stands out in contrast to Madonna because Madonna was willing to play the game.

She wanted to be a big star and she was going to do whatever it took to get there. And Cindy Lopper, I think by contrast, really just wanted to be a singer and she was a kind of artist and went to art school and had this kind of vision for what she wanted her work to be. And I think if she was eclipsis

because she wasn't trying to be an icon she was just trying to sing. And I would say I was going to have to stick up for Madonna as well because I love her so much and feel that she kind of defies, she won't go away. You know what I mean?

She stays there and that in itself is an act of defiance in whatever doing concerts. And I think another album perhaps on the way. I mean, it's interesting to me that she does that through singing, you know, but she's not a singer. It's a weird kind of conundrum. Kind of started as a dancer,

but her voice is there. And we all know it at the minute we hear it as well. What about for you, Olivia, trying to navigate. Obviously it's decades, I suppose since Cindy and Madonna were, you know, top of the charts. But did you find it difficult to navigate, which

is still male-dominated, the industry? Well, I just put a new band together, which might even be the album that comes up, before the Purcell album. We'll see how it goes. But I put together a kind of folk rock project called News from Nowhere. And I was so busy writing the arrangements and getting the rehearsals together.

And suddenly we were on stage. And I did have this moment of realizing that I was fronting a five-piece band and it was all men and me at the front. And I'm playing all my different instruments. And they're all guys that I love and they're all extraordinary musicians. But I did have this little glimmer of like, wow, I'm kind of, I'm doing it. this and it felt really special to sort of lead that. And I think I would say generally, I've actually had a really great experience in the music industry being a woman. I think being a mother in the music industry is slightly different because it's mainly playing live is just really problematic.

If you're like breastfeeding kids and they sort of say, you know, you're about to go on stage at 9pm and they say your children can't be backstage from 9pm onwards. And you're like, I'm not going to name names, but you know, that's happened to me quite famous venues in the UK. Right. Really interesting and also to shine a light on that. Lauren, I understand our last minute or so you're not singing at the moment. You said there's not the space for it at the moment. And when I was reading that, I was like, no.

Oh, no, no. I mean, it just has to do with issues in my family and my son and his intolerance of, yeah, my vote. localizing. But yeah, that's that. I wish that I could. I've been singing in my bathroom when they go out. My son and my partner go out sometimes to ride the buses in Southeast London. And then I go and take my iPhone and film myself singing a song and put it on Instagram. I'm really interesting. Yeah, it's been great. It's been amazing. How old is he is seven and a half. It will change. I hope so. I feel like with my kids, there was a point at which they identified music as taking me away from them. Yes. But as long as they don't have that association. Yeah. I mean,

it's just doing something different with my voice than I do, you know, in everyday life with him. He just can't, can't deal with it. So interesting, your book. Lots more to talk about as well. But we gave a little snapshot of what people can expect with Lauren Elkin and her book Vocal Break. Olivia Cheney, thanks as well for sticking around. Tomorrow's program are falling pupil numbers at schools in England, disproportionately affecting children with sand special educational needs and disabilities. I'll be speaking to Haley Clark, BBC Education reporter and former primary school teacher. I hope you'll join me then. That's all for today's woman's hour.

Join us again next time. If you've got a scrolling problem, then this is the podcast for you. It's called Top Comment with me, Matt Shea. And me, Marianna Spring. We both investigate social media for a living. Whether it's disinformation, conspiracy theories, internet culture, memes. We're going to be getting behind the stuff that is popping up on your feed on this podcast. That's top comment on BBC Sounds.