Woman's Hour - Epstein Files, Plane spotting, Janie Dee, South Asian female DJs

Episode Date: December 24, 2025

The US Department of Justice released another batch of documents related to the late financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Many of the pages are heavily redacted and represent only a fraction of the number held by the FBI. Marina Lacerda met Epstein when she was 14 years old in New York around 2002 and was abused by him. She gave her reaction to the last Friday's release of documents. South Asian women have long been underrepresented in the DJ scene - largely due to a combination of cultural expectations and gender stereotypes but that’s starting to change. Every Saturday, Asian Network’s DJ Kizzi bring us a House Party show. This Saturday - the final one of 2025 - she’s ending the year in style with a special House Party featuring five South Asian female DJs in back-to-back sets. They will be representing the different diasporas and Asian cultures, from Punjabi and Pakistani to Bengali and Tamil. DJ Kizzi and DJ Manara join Krupa to talk about what it means to be a female South Asian DJ in a male-dominated industry and why they’re passionate about championing female DJ talent.‘Fly girls love planes’ - that’s the motto of Gloria Amponsem, founder of a plane spotting group for women. After her videos went viral on social media, The Plane Spotting Club has organised group socials and built an online community with hundreds of women. Founder Gloria and member of the club Michelle Fradgley join Krupa to discuss why they love plane spotting and how their group is challenging stereotypes.Brahmacharini Shripriya Chaitanya, a spiritual leader at Chinmaya Mission London, shares the wisdom of Advaita Vedanta, the Hindu philosophy of non-duality that teaches all existence is one interconnected reality. After studying in India, she returned to the UK and has spent seven years guiding her community through talks, writings, and her podcast, as well as appearing on BBC Radio 4’s Prayer for the Day. This festive season, her message is simple - pause, practise mindfulness and gratitude, and reconnect with the stillness within to find calm and light amid the celebrations.As Noel Coward’s funny, shocking play Fallen Angels is revived one hundred years after it was first performed, actress and singer Janie Dee joins Krupa to talk about how the play almost didn’t make it past the censors, and Noel Coward cabaret night, plus she performs a Noel Coward song live in the studio. Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Dianne McGregor

Hello, this is Krupa Pardi, and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Good morning, thank you for being with us. There is a strong theme across the programme this morning, one of women following their passions, sometimes against the odds, no matter what people think or say, sticking to their convictions. A couple of those women are members of the UK's first all-female plane spotting club. Within a matter of month,

the founder, Gloria Ampon Sim, welcomed hundreds of women into her community and received thousands of views across social media. Gloria is also an artist and one of her posts that caught my attention was all about how plain spotting has helped her with the art of noticing and how she puts her inspiration onto a canvas. Amid the hustle of daily life, especially at this time of the year, many of us could do with slowing down and paying more attention to the natural world around us. What do you want to notice more?

What is already catching your attention? the moon, the swaying of the clouds, the sound of birds, the laughter of children. What details of everyday life do you notice that brings you joy? You can text our programme. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website or send us a WhatsApp audio note. The number is 0300-100-444. Our terms and conditions can be found on our website.

We'll also introduce you to two women of Asian heritage who are breaking the mould on the mainstream DJing scene. DJ Kizzy and DJ Manara from the BBC Asian Network will be joining me to talk about how they are merging their roots into their mixes. And the multi-award winning actress and singer Janie D joins us to talk about her role in Fallen Angels, the comedy by playwright Noel Coward, and she'll be singing for us live too.

What a treat do stay with us for that. But first, as we were hearing, in the bulletin there, reaction continues after the U.S. Department of Justice released another batch of documents yesterday related to the late financier and sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Many of the pages are heavily redacted and represent only a fraction of the number held by the FBI. Now, this latest batch of 11,000 documents includes an email by A from Balmoral asking Jeffrey Epstein's associate Ghislaine Maxwell for, I quote, inappropriate friends. It was sent from an address using the alias the Invisible Man, a pen name that was also

used alongside a separate email address listed in Epstein's phone book as Duke of York. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor has repeatedly denied all wrongdoing. He lost the use of his Duke of York title following scrutiny over his links with Epstein. Maxwell was convicted in the US in 2021 for her role in enticing underage girls for Epstein. The US DOJ is facing criticism over the pace of this release and the amount of redactions which the law specifically states can only be done to protect the identity of victims or active criminal investigations. Speaking to the media, DOJ officials defended the slow release of the files saying they wanted to continue to review documents to protect victims,

making sure that victims' names and any of the information from victims is protected and redacted. But what has been the reaction from the women whose lives were changed by the abuse they suffered? I spoke to Marina Le Serda about her reaction to last Friday's release of the documents. Marina originally met Epstein when she was just 14 years old in New York around 2002 and she was abused by him. I began by asking her about the release of the files and whether she thought this day would ever come. Yes, I did think this day would ever come. Did I think that it would actually have the full Epstein files? no, I don't think

and I don't really think that I always like to be positive about things but I still feel like that we'll never ever really get the truth and the whole truth journalists, members of the public they've all been going through this material online I imagine you might have done the same has anything that you didn't know come to light

nothing has come to light you know I think everything that you know the files have been put out there was already out there There's nothing new. There's a lot of redactions that are made that are unnecessary. It's still protecting the very powerful elite men that we're supposed to be bringing to justice. And the victims and the survivors, a lot of those names have been leaked. And it's very sad that the Justice Department, the DOJ, has done this awful job.

Marina, you've said in the past that you blocked out much of your memory and that if you saw the files, you'd be able to piece things together. Now, I know you probably haven't had a chance to go through all the material, but do you think this might be a step towards that? Oh, 100%. We were just, you know, going over some of the files and it said that a Jane Doe actually was pressured

into bringing IDs because she was bringing girls of the age of 18. And I have to say, I know that somebody. and that somebody had brought, you know, girls that, you know, her friends that were at the age of 18 and Jeffrey Epstein got very, very upset and, you know, used foul language and said that he did not want older girls coming in and he wanted young girls and he, you know, made sure that she and myself was starting to bring ID to his location in New York. So when I see this type of, you know, things coming out in the files, it starts to make a lot of sense, you know, to the public. I mean, it starts to make more sense to the public that all these things that we said is true and it is happening. But it really does suck that a lot of the things are being redacted. It could help, you know, not only myself to understand what kind of, you know, people Jeffrey Epstein were around and what they did, but it also would help, you know, the public understand who.

he is and that, you know, we are being nothing but honest here. I appreciate this is a hugely important moment for you and other survivors, but there are some survivors of Epstein who may find this material and the release of this material deeply triggering lawyers for the victims wrote in a letter to the judge in the Maxwell case, for example, saying that transparency cannot come at the expense of privacy, safety and the protection of sexual abuse and sex trafficking victims. And they added that they've already suffered repeatedly both at the hands of abuses as well as by the actions of the media and inactions of the government. I'm curious on your thoughts on that. Yes, we have spoken about that. It can be

triggering, but we all have missing pieces to the puzzle. If we go back to one of the girls, it happened in 1996. That's a long time. Do you remember what you were doing, you know, 15 years ago every year or how or where and when, what date and exactly? No, you don't. And I'm pretty sure you probably didn't have as much trauma as myself and the survivors. When you are put in a position where your fight and flight, your brain goes automatically into that and it just blocks your memory and it blocks things that you don't, that you do want to remember later on in life.

But now that we are here, we can't, you know, put all these. these pieces and puzzles together, but, you know, people must understand this. Yes, there are some things that we have blocked out because of our trauma, but we will never forget who Jeffrey Epstein was and is today for us. Do you finally feel like you're being heard, Marina? I definitely do. And myself and all the survivors, we are so thankful for the attention and the platforms and the, you know, the love that everybody has given us. We are very, you know, we're very, you know, we're very thankful for that. And what do you hope will happen next?

We're working on it. Us survivors are working on our next step. We're not going to give this fight up, and we know that this is not the full files. If anything, these are repetitive files that already have been out. Some of the things that are out, there's no explanation to the pictures. Where is it? Is it in New Mexico? Is it, you know, in the Virgin Is it in the U.S.?

in New York. Also, like, where were they? What was happening? There's nothing explaining what these pictures are. So then it becomes a whole bunch of files that we can't just put the pieces together, too. My thanks to Marina Leserda talking to me a few days ago, and no doubt this is a story that we will return to in the new year. Now, a few weeks ago, I stumbled across the story of Ranikor, also known as DJ Radical Sister from the late 1980s. It was a black and white image of her dressed in a traditional sarva camis or Punjabi suit, spinning vinyl records at a daytime a gig in Bradford. And that stayed with me ever since and I've wanted to learn more.

And that's because decades on, South Asian female DJs are still relatively rare within the DJ scene. But as we're about to learn, this is slowly changing. This Saturday is the last Saturday of the year and DJ Kizzy will be ending 2025 in style by hosting a special house party show with five other South Asian female DJ doing back-to-back sets on the BBC Asian Network. DJ Kizzy and fellow BBC Asian Network DJ Manara, join me now. Welcome to you both.

Thank you so much for having us. Now, I took us back to the 1980s in that opener there, but I want to learn about your journeys into DJing. When did you both start DJing? For me, I was 16, so it's been seven and a half years now, quite a while. Quite a while. I started DJing about 15-ish years ago, and I've been full time for 10

And how did this come about Was it just, you know, listening to tracks and thinking, hey, I want to do this Or was there a musical journey to get to this point? For me personally, I started by playing the toll And then the double up But it got to a point where it was mostly just males in the classes And I was getting a little bit older

And my family a bit like, we're not too comfortable with that So then I started playing piano And then once I got to school It was actually a teacher that recommended to my dad At Parents' Evening that you should get her decks And yeah, it kind of started from there really. I love that. And it's important to kind of highlight, isn't it, that Dauldantabla, they are drums, they are Indian drums. And you're right. It's a heavily male-dominated instrument in many ways. Even at weddings when you see them rock up, it's many the men playing it. Was it similar for you, Minow? So for me, like many DJs, I thought I had the best taste in the world. So when my university didn't give me a radio show, I was like, I'm really going to teach them. I'm going to become the best flipping DJ ever. So it was rooted in pettiness a little bit, but it worked out well.

Or motivation. Yeah, exactly. exactly yeah let's talk about the actual industry as a whole i mean i touched on it there it's male dominated would you agree with that yeah i would i would say so i think there obviously is like a turning point right now and i feel like more females are more comfortable to like explore like their hobbies and go into DJing and stuff but i think like for example monara for me when i was starting she was probably the only DJ that i knew was doing it whereas now there's absolutely loads of us which is incredible but i still think that there is like an

angle where women feel not as comfortable or they're made to feel not as comfortable in their decks because of the amount of men in the scene. And Kizzy there used the word hobbies, exploring hobbies, but this is more than a hobby for you. This is your livelihood. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that was also, it wasn't like we came in with a business plan either of us. No, and I think that's the thing. You should be able to try it out and not think, I can't touch this or touch this instrument or touch the decks because it's like a male sport, you know? I think people should be able to just have things that they enjoy and, you know, just see where they go. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I want to learn more about this showcase. Why was it important for you to set it up and who's going to feature? So in all honesty, like it was a dream of mine to get a Saturday night show on BBC Asian Network,

like a long-term dream. And when I got it, I knew straight away that I wanted more women to be played on a Saturday night on BBC Asian Network. Like we know how to party. We know how to have a good time and we're really good at DJing. So bringing this together was genuinely such a joy. It is myself, DJ Minara, DJ Henna, Romique, Issue and Ryder that will all be there. It's just incredible. Like, everyone's from a different walk of life, a different background, into different music. And together, the energy was, it was perfect. It's interesting you say from a different background, because often South Asian women can be put into the same bubble.

Yeah, under the same label. But there are nuances and there are differences, and that translates in music as well. Yeah, 100% I'm British Pakistani, you're a British Indian but we sort of... It's like everyone's like sisters, you know? Yeah. And we had British Bengali's on the takeover as well. I think it's really cool.

I think from the outside people who don't know about the culture, they might not be apparent to them. But in that takeover, what's amazing about the back-to-back is there was so many different languages played. So honestly, so many different languages. Like you could feel everyone's own culture coming through the way that they mix or like where they're from or what brought them into the DJing scene.

You could just hear it like the clubby culture and like Manara's mixing, like the slower jazz blends from issue. Like you could really hear everyone's like, like, I don't know, their whole childhood in their way they're mixed, you know, it's incredible. Well, you've mentioned the style there. Let's hear a bit of it. Here is a clip of Kizzy playing Rumble, the Toddler Tea remix with DJ Manara playing Mahjaveh from the Bollywood movie, Goanah, from The House Party Show. I think it's the first step. She's heard it out live. And is that a lot of live. And is that a strange feeling? Yeah, really strange because we do a lot of live radio on Saturday nights. So it's really funny to hear that now in the morning.

Do you think men and women DJ differently? Absolutely. I think that being a woman, you're drawing from something deep within yourself when you DJ, depending on what you're going through, depending on what kind of day you had, depending on what kind of week you are, depending on where you are and you're flipping cycle for most with you.

And I think drawing from that chaos is something really beautiful and that's why I think women are incredible DJs. And there was a time when, South Asian parents, South Asian families would expect their daughters to follow a more conventional path, a more predictable path you study, you get married and you get a job for life. How did your family view your choice?

I didn't tell them about it for a very long time and I actually think maybe I was overthinking it because now, let's be real, I don't think there's many parents who are absolutely dying for their child to be a DJ regardless of whether they're Asian or not. But now they're sort of accepting on it of it. There's definitely people in the wider family

you aren't happy but hey somebody has to be the first person to throw the first stone has to be I'm really happy to be that person kizzie was it the same for you honestly that's so incredible to hear that you feel that way for me it was uh it was a little bit like that it was kind of like you need to be getting a stars at school um if you want to like continue a DJing and it actually got to a point I did an apprenticeship in like accounting um and I was 21 and I said to my parents I was like you know like I need to go 100% now like I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to hold myself back. I need to give myself chance and it was actually a three-hour presentation to them on how it would work. I still have that presentation now. Yeah, that was a short one. And I presented

it and my mum looked me in the eye and said no. My dad said yes. And I was like, you know what? My dad said yes. I can. That's so interesting that your mom said no. I always think to that. But you know what? She is my biggest cheerleader. Like she's been to so many of my gigs. My parents absolutely love it now. And to be honest, when it first started, a lot of like the wider family and community in their friends that you did have things to say like you know you're letting your daughter out and that's why she might have been afraid i don't think she was afraid i think she was always pushing education like she hadn't gone to university but in terms of like their friends being like oh you're letting your daughter go out at night and come back a four and my parents were always like

she knows herself she respects herself she loves what she does like we would prefer you just respect you know they really kind of had my back with it so very grateful once they realize you're a person with integrity they sort of come around about the whole job choice i think the stereotypes around DJing and I think once you show people that really it's just because of you love it, it's very different, you know? You've been able to take your work to an international stage. Manara, I was reading that. You even went to Pakistan to teach DJ workshop playing sets in Lahore and Karachi.

Were there any women there? Yeah, it was actually... Was it four women? Yeah, it was for, well, it was focused on getting mostly women in. And how was that received? There were a lot of people interested in what's really, really cool about it. There was women there who were like, you know, graphic designers, comic book artists, stand-up comedians, you know, and they wanted to learn a new hobby.

It was incredible. And honestly, a lot of people I was teaching already had knowledge of DJing, whether it's through YouTube or practicing at home already. And I think there is quite a studious culture in Pakistan and India, especially because we're kind of sport here with resources, right? Yeah. And I think it was really cool to go there and meet so many. It honestly is not what a lot of people would think it was like.

And I DJed a couple of nights out there, a couple of raves. It was incredible. It sounds incredible. Kizzy, in terms of the next generation, I mean, you yourself are still very young. Does it feel like a responsibility to almost inspire the next generation of South Asian DJ? I think it's really important to, I think when anyone does something and there's a little bit of limelight on you, people kind of always think that you're doing it for like the longevity of your career. But for me, that's really not it.

I'm not trying to DJ forever. I absolutely love it and I'm enjoying what I'm in right now. I want to get more experiences. But for me, it's like more comfortability for women to come in. When I was younger, I was very scared. Genuinely, Minara was the only person. Like, from the age of 17, she's had my back. Yeah.

And I feel so grateful for that. But I want more women. I love the sisterhood. I love it. I want more women to have each other. Like, even just with the house party, bringing six of us together, all six of us are now friends. Like, well, some of us are in our 20s. Some of us in our 30s.

But, like, if we all saw each other out now, you know you've just got that bond. And it's just about having, like, a community now, female DJs. I think that's my aim. That's what I want more DJs and more. like community, you know, like not put everyone against each other, more just together. And Manara, do men have your back? Do you men have my back? Good question.

I mean, some do, but I don't think that's how I got to where I am. I think I always knew that, especially when I started out 15 years ago, people are going to, people wouldn't even see me or the DJ. People wouldn't even give you a request because there's a man nearby and they'd give it to him. It's hard, not everyone's bad, you know, but I think that there was a lot of girls who I looked up to when I was coming up and they helped me out. And especially like the queer club scene, that really had my back. That really, really had my back. And that was where I could really explore myself and just be a bit punk even with how I started out. What a journey.

To finish off, I want to get your tips for any women, South Asian or not, who are listening, who want to get into DJing. What would you say? I would say don't be scared. I think even now, I'm only at a point where there's, I'll be on the decks and like a man will come up to the decks and just like start touching my laptop or USB. I mean, it happened like two months ago maybe. I think I'm still learning that.

But if I was to give like, you know, advice to younger people, I would say like just be fearless. Like fake it to you, make it a little bit. I think more confidence, lean into it and just like, don't be scared. I think I had too much anxiety going into it. And even now, like I'm still fighting a little bit of that off. But seeing like a female that's so confident, like get on those decks and being like, this is my space.

I own it. is just incredible. So, yeah, I would say really push for your confidence. Just fake it to you. I love the honesty. I would say don't go in it for the business. Going in it for the love of music. Have fun with it.

Be chaotic. Experiment. If it's not perfect, life isn't perfect. Life isn't on a grid. Life isn't quantized and that's okay. So just have fun with the mess and then it will find itself. What a joy having you both in the studio. Thank you for joining us.

That was DJ Kizzy and DJ Minara. And you can hear Kizzy's house party on Saturday the 27th of December at 7pm on the BBC. Asian Network. Next, if you haven't already found our new podcast on BBC Sounds, it's called Send in the Spotlight. That is where we reimagine support for children with special educational needs and disabilities. The latest episode is out now, and it's a festive treat. Actor and parent, Kelly Bright, tells us about her tussles with the Advent calendar, and we share lots of tips for navigating Christmas with a child who has special needs and disabilities.

Here's Katie Ghosh with an unusual one. Dial down those expectations. It's Christmas dinner on the sofa any time you like. And it's the half-wrapped presents because surprises don't work for every child. Let's get into the half-wrapped present. Yeah, it's a genius idea, isn't it? And it is about thinking what works for your kid. I can half-wrap the present because then you can have a peek and see what it is,

but you still get the lovely joy of unwrapping the present. Another lovely one I heard. A kid, for whom the typical Christmas, doesn't work. They do a little walk around the block and there are some little things hidden in bushes. And you can join Neula for the rest of that episode, which also features 24-year-old Elvi, a young disabled woman with a rare genetic disorder who has just moved into supported living. She loves Christmas and lives Christmas, 365 days a year. In previous episodes, you'll find top tips on applying for an EHCP, that is,

education, health and care plans from a legal expert. Just search for send in the spotlight. on BBC sounds and do subscribe so you don't miss an episode. We're going to stay with the theme of a passion. If I say plane spotters, what or who do you think of? For many,

a very stereotyped image may come to mind, maybe a group of older men with annawaxon and notebooks in hand, staring at the sky on the outskirts of an airport. Well, my next guests are tackling that stereotype head on. The Plainspotting Club is a group dedicated to observing aircraft and

they're all women. Joining me in the studio, to tell us more about the club is the club's founder, Gloria and Podsem, and member of the club, Michelle Fragley. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Let's go right back to bases. Gloria, for those of us who aren't familiar, what exactly is plane spotting? What do you do? Where do you go?

So, plane spotting is a hobby where you spot, log and maybe even photograph aircrafts. They tend to be commercial, military or even private. And it's sort of a blend between aviation and photography. you're logging them, you can track them on flight radar. And I guess it's, yeah, it's a very enthusiast-based hobby. Where do you go? You go to airports, so you can go to, there'll be like dedicated plane spotting locations at certain airports

that enthusiasts will like make quite popular, or you can even find your own secret spots and then tell other people about them. So we go to places like London City, Myrtle Avenue. And Myrtle Avenue is one that's quite famous as an example. You started this plain spotting club, but you yourself are quite new to it. How did it all come about? So I was plane spotting, but I guess I wasn't really posting it,

maybe because I was also a bit cautious of like the stigma attached to it and things like that. So I then just decided to post it one day on my birthday in September, and it went viral and I connected with so many women who are also into plane spotting. And you've had a tremendous response? Yes. Who has got in touch with you? What kind of people? So I've had female pilots have gotten in touch just to sort of encourage us. I've had student pilots get in touch and join us.

I've had ex-cabin crew, current cabin crew. And then also women who are just wanting a sense of community join us as well because for a lot of people in the Plainsporting Club, it's not a pressure zone at all. A lot of the people that join don't actually know anything about planes. They just want to fill that connection with other women and have a place that feels safe for them. It's interesting you mention students because you yourself are quite young. Yes, I am. And is that, you know, it's not typical, but it's just a suggestion of just how inclusive the club is.

Yes, definitely. I have had a massive, like, age range reach out, and I've had people say they think they're too young to join. Can they come with a guardian? I've said, of course. And I've had some women reach out and say, oh, I think I'm much older than you girls. Can I still come? And I've said, please do. Because I just want it to be clear that there's no age limit.

it's just an inclusive space for women. And Gloria, you mentioned the type of aircraft that you look out for, including military aircraft. Are there any rules around spotting and photographing military aircraft? So we haven't spotted any military aircrafts as a social so far. We've gone to places where we know that we're allowed to go, such as London City Airport, where we know that there's no sort of like strict regulations on just standing there and looking at planes and speaking with women. But for things like that, there would be more regulations.

And that's important because there are rules and regulations around this. Let's bring in a member of your club. Michelle, how did you get into play in spotting? I've been phenomenally lucky to have travelled a fair bit since I was a child. I've also worked a little bit in the defence industry. And the sporting element really comes into play when I'm travelling myself and following my own aircraft before I get on it. Or even just watching friends and family travel on their aircraft

and seeing are they almost there yet and have they landed safely and just seeing the variety of aircraft that's around and the feet of engineering throughout history as well. I mean there are so many aspects that you've just touched on the defence industry, the engineering side. What is it that really draws you in?

It feels unnatural in a way to have such a massive piece of vessel that can fly for for example 12, 15 hours non-stop and it's just really cool. And then throughout history as well where they've played such a key part, for example, like World War II with all the Lancasters and Spitfires and even, for example, the fly passes that they do over Buckingham Palace, and

yeah, it's really awesome. I mentioned in my opener that I spotted your post, Gloria, about the art of noticing and why it's factored into your passion here. Just tell us more about that. So the art of noticing is a massive part of the plain spotting club. I'd say for me as an artist, it was just about noticing the things that are around me. And I guess we all have so much going on in our lives that sometimes it's important to be able to just stop and have that distraction, a healthy distraction.

And I guess for me, that's where the art of noticing came into play and how the Plainsporting Club was born from it. We've had a message in from Julia about the art of noticing and she says, when bees rather than planes are flying, I notice stranded bees on the pavement. I keep my eyes down. and when I spot an exhausted bee slowly crawling along, I pick it up. Some I transfer to a flower, and some the weakest I take home.

If you feed them a drop of something sweet, it acts as rocket fuel. If they're not too far gone, I'd like to encourage everyone to rescue bees. Thank you, Julia. That wasn't the message I was expecting. I love that. And thank you to you, Glory, for bringing this whole concept of art of noticing to our attention. Michelle, what is the most exciting aircraft you've seen? Oh, gosh.

So many. probably not in the sky in person, but looking at old videos of Concord, I think it's probably my favourite because that was a commercial aircraft that went extremely quickly. So probably that one. And when you drive into Heathrow,

you can still see one that's on display, that's very proud. Yeah, so it's one you haven't had a chance to see, but one you're just going to have to dip into the archive for it and get them thrill for. And also the idea of, you know, you can go play and spotting by yourself. people do what are the advantages of going in a group but not just in a group but in a group of

women i think it's very empowering um before i found the group i didn't know there were other female plane spotters and the fact that we can all go together and encourage learning from each other and support each other and we can talk about the aircraft as well as what we do outside of plane spotting work and hobbies etc well you expecting gloria so many women to come forward no honestly i don't know what I was expecting. I just, it took me so long to finally get the courage to post it that when I did, I think I just went off of TikTok and I just disappeared. But why were you concerned when you say finally get the courage? What was, what was worrying you? I think because of the stigma behind plane spotting and the stereotypes attached to it, I just, for a while maybe I thought, I don't

know how I'll be perceived, I don't know what people will think. And it was a hobby that I was sort of protective of. I was doing it for so long before I posted it online that when I finally did it, I felt like I was maybe exposing myself and like letting people in a bit more to more about me. Again, I'm going to dig a bit more protective. Why did you feel you had to protect your hobby rather than share it? I don't know. I guess sometimes we're protective of things that we care about a lot. And I think maybe at the time I didn't realize how much the hobby meant to me.

So I sort of kept it to myself maybe to protect myself from people's opinions if they weren't very kind or anything like that. But then I think one day I was just like, who's going to stop me? And you love doing it? Yeah. Reading through more notes about this, I was really struck that there are so few women

in the aviation sector, especially at certain levels. That really took me aback. I mean, what's your take on that? Have you, you said that you've had women pilots join the group as well? Is that for solidarity? I think for them, like a lot of them want to just encourage us as well.

I think a lot of us are quite young. So a lot of the female pilots, that have reached out or joined are constantly saying, you know, you guys are doing something great, keep it up. And I think it's encouragement more than anything. And there's loads of student pilots in the Plainsporting Club as well who are currently studying for their PPL and their CPL. And I think it's amazing to have that connection.

Yeah. And I wonder, Michelle, if you think this starts even younger than that. I mean, when we think about the stereotypes, we still largely have boys playing with vehicles, transport, girls playing with dolls. does something like this, this interest, does it need to be rooted from a really young age? Potentially, I think one great thing about the group

is that we have members of all ages. But for example, today on Christmas Eve, you can track Santa and his sleigh going around the global flight radar stuff. That's a good incentive to attract a younger audience. Yeah, that's great for all children. Will you be watching Santa, either of you? We already have.

You already have, and where has he reached? He's just by the Philippines. Good to know. I'll make note. Look, if anyone is listening and they practically want to get involved in plane spotting, first of all, is it an expensive hobby? What equipment might you need? So because it's a very no pressure zone, we don't ask anyone to have any expensive equipment.

Of course, if you're really into aviation photography, you might want to buy a camera. But us, it's just about meeting up. All you really need to consider cost-wise is the travel to get there. But it's a no-pressure zone. You just show up and you meet new people. We talk about planes and that's it. So nothing pressuring.

And what about people who are apprehensive about having no knowledge at all about a plane from any angle? I think one great thing about plane spotting in general is that there's very low barriers to access it. So the applications you can track it online or on your phone are completely free and then you can have paid tears. But even then you can see a plane in the sky if you're not close to an airport and see what is it? Where is it going? And then you can join in an event or go by yourself at another time. Technology has changed so much. Yes.

Thank you both, Gloria Ampontim and Michelle. Fradgley, are both part of that plain spotting club. If you'd like to learn more about them, they are very active on social media and you will find them there. Do you keep your messages coming in on the art of noticing 84844? I'd love to hear and read a few more of your thoughts on that. Now, we heard there from Gloria about just being in the moment. moments stopping and pausing and we're going to focus on that a bit more because we all need

a bit of calm during this festive season and a bit of guidance, especially when we transition from the often manic build-up to Christmas to the lethargic slump that follows into the new year. Today we are joined by Brahmacharini, Shipria, Jaitanya, a spiritual teacher at the Chidmayah mission here in London for the past seven years. She's been sharing the wisdom of Edweta Vedanta, the Hindu philosophy of non-duality. that through talks, writings and her podcast, as well as on BBC Radio 4's Prayer for the Day. This philosophy reminds us that beneath the noise and chaos, life is one interconnected whole and that peace is always within reach.

She joins me now from India. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. For those who don't know, what is Brahmacharini? So a Bramacharini is a female monk who is sort of in the initial stage, of that sort of phase of life of renunciation. And so, yes, a sort of novice initiate, you could say, into monkhood. And the concept of being a brahmadini has ancient roots, doesn't it?

I mean, you're a young woman. You studied politics at the University of York. What inspired you to take this path in these modern times? I really, when I was young, was incredibly inspired by the teachers of Chenmemission. and what I saw in them as people. I saw an incredible ability to connect with every single person they met. I saw an ability to remain calm, even in sort of crises. And that really inspired me to kind of look into what they based their life on.

And so I reached this philosophy of Vedanta through them. And it's just been such an incredibly beautiful philosophy to learn more about. was it an easy decision to make it was and you know in a sense it didn't really feel like a decision it felt like it was just something that that happened that I was given the opportunity for I was really lucky in that I had a supportive family and I felt that there wasn't anything else that I wanted to do with my life and so yeah in that sense it was it was very easy Some may know that Hinduism celebrates and worships the feminine divine and female energy. There are multiple festivals, multiple goddesses, but priests are still largely men.

What challenges have you faced, if any, as a female monk in Hinduism here in the UK? I think the challenges that are faced by us, and I'm one of many within Shemimishin are similar to the challenges that women feel. face in, you know, whatever sector that they function and work in. But at the same time, I'm incredibly grateful because the community has been really supportive. I think the challenge comes because people don't necessarily understand what our role is until, you know, they get to know what we're doing and what we're sort of, how we function within the community. And so once that gap is bridged, those challenges become a lot easier.

Let's learn a bit more about those tools, those skills that you employ to, as you said, create calm during crisis. There'll be people right now frantically packing presents ahead of Christmas, feeling stressed that they haven't bought enough, focusing on materialism, maybe conversely feeling lonely at this time, you know, possibly spending Christmas by themselves, either by choice or otherwise. There are a lot of emotions at this time of the year. How do you maintain that calm according to your teachings? One of the most useful techniques for doing this,

for maintaining that sense of calm that's given to us, is this really simple idea of just grounding oneself in the present. And so what it requires is for us to really, really just understand that actually all we have available to us at any given time is the present moment. We spend so much of our lives kind of worrying about what's coming in the future or regretting decisions or actions of the past. And what we're reminded of through the teaching of Vedanta is that really speaking our autonomy and the choice that we have available to us really only is in the present. And so once we understand that, the idea is that we're a lot more free

to enjoy what's happening here and now, because we know that the past and the future are outside of our control. And therefore, it's a really kind of centering thought that allows us to just be in the present and maintain calm in that way. It sounds very attractive, very appealing to be able to stay in the present, but so many of us struggle. Is there a practical tip you could give people about how to stay in the present, having highlighted the advantages there? Definitely. And there's so many different techniques that are given to us,

but one really simple way of doing it is just grounding yourself in your own body or grounding yourself in your own breath, taking a moment to just sort of become aware of one's own thoughts. of those things are techniques where we are brought back to where we are physically. And that becomes a way of bringing oneself back to the present, even at the level of our thoughts and the mind. And so that's quite similar to, you know, a lot of the mindfulness and meditation techniques that are available to us. But really, it's just a kind of grounding, I think, I would say. So much of what you've talked about is being still, but there is a case to be argued about

being physical as well. You yourself ran a marathon in support of the mission. How did your teachings help you with that physical challenge? That was definitely a challenge. Congratulations. Thank you. I think the teachings really helped in that I was able to, through the process both of training and the actual day of the marathon, really just kind of maintain. a sense of awareness and a kind of almost an attitude of an observer to my own body and mind. I think most of the time when we're going through experiences and we're living life, we are so involved with what's happening to us physically and what emotions are running through our minds and that sort of different thoughts that are coming up.

And one of the key teachings of Adveta Vedanta is to remain as a sort of observer or a witness of both of those things. And so that really helped because, of course, you have, or I had physical pain through that process of training and that the actual marathon itself, there are times when the mind really protests at, you know, being put through this incredible challenge. And so that was one particular thing that really helped me was just being able to recognize is that just the fact that I know that I'm aware of my body and I'm aware of my mind,

it helps me to sort of step back from them a little bit and not be too carried away with what is being experienced physically or mentally. As people transition from the main year of Christmas into that new year slump that I mentioned in my opener there, as someone knew was run the marathon, but equally is a master of meditation and being still. What would you say to them as the festive season? and gets underway?

I think one of the most important things for us at this time, particularly mentioned it's so busy and people are thinking about gifts and things that they have to do is just taking a second to remember what it is that is actually important to us in our lives. And I think when we do that, most of us will admit that it's not the things

that we look forward to the most. It's the sort of the time that we spend with loved ones or the time that, for the time that, some people it's the time they spend for example volunteering at this time of year in soup kitchens or whatever it might be and so taking a second to recognize that the things that we really gain fulfillment and satisfaction for from sorry are things which will be with us even after the festive period so as hectic as it is and as much as there is going on that sense of calm and fulfillment and satisfaction that we get from those really meaningful moments,

those will be with us. Thank you for that message. And thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour, the thoughts there of Brahmacharini, Shipria, Jaitanya, here on the program. Now, speaking of Christmas, have you gone home for the Christmas holidays? Do you find yourself slipping back into childhood habits

like arguing over the TV remote? Or maybe you're a parent who still treats your grown-up children like kids. If that sounds familiar, whether during Christmas or any other time, we'd love to hear your experiences for an item next week. You can text a program 84844. You can speak to us on social media at BBC Women's Hour or email us through our website as well. But do get in touch.

Thank you to the many of you who have got in touch about noticing things, the art of noticing. This message from Angie says, when skies are clear enough, I enjoy seeing the constellations change during the year. whatever is going down there or rather whatever is going on down here on earth they continue on their courses

thank you Angie for your thought I'll try and squeeze in a few more towards the end of the programme next a story of two married women getting increasingly excited and increasingly drunk at the idea of seeing their ex-lover again might sound like good fun today

but when Noel Cowers' play Fallen Angels was first performed 100 years ago it almost proved too much for audiences and barely made it past the centre Follen Angels has now been revived out at London's Many A Chocolate Factory starring the multi-award-winning actress and singer Janie D who joins me now to discuss the play and she'll also treat us to a special performance of one of Noel Coward's classic songs live in the studio. Welcome, Janie. Thank you, Gruber. It's lovely to be here on Christmas Eve. On Christmas Eve. Thank you for coming in on Christmas Eve. Now, first of all, for listeners who don't know much about Noel Coward, tell us more about him and his work. Well, I first became conscious of him

when my mother gave me a book of his entire works and I started to look at his songs and they were really witty and brilliant the vocabulary was just fantastic and that's really the joy of Noel Coward that his wit and depth is untouchable he also has a really good take on the English he knows what we're like

and he doesn't mind sort of showing that in his plays as well as his songs to a more critical degree, let's say. And certainly in Fallen Angels, you know, he gives us as women a really fantastic track of events that lead us from perfectly nicely behaved human beings to quite the opposite. And that's why it was banned, I guess, in 1925.

How unusual for that day and age? to be able to see women behaving yeah yeah well I think even now we get people saying gosh it is quite a shock you know that you behave that way but it's enormous fun and that's his talent really he's he was a great writer I mean he really any play that you find by Noel Coward will have both wit and depth and great characters and great stories and fantastic language in it I had done already designed for living, private lives, Blythe Spirit with Angela Lansbury. And in fact, the book that my mother had given me at the end of doing Blythe Spirit, I said to the cast, here's a book, choose a song, we're going to do a concert because this woman is not going to come this way again. And she's very precious. So I went and booked the Café de Paris and everyone did learn a song.

And in fact, Imelda turned up and sang an Irish ballad as well. And everybody, Barry Humphreys came and he wrote a song for her. And I asked Christopher Biggins to teach everybody maim so that when she arrived, she'd walk down the stairs with the audience singing maim to her. Yeah, precious time. And at the end of the whole concert, I'd sung, where are the songs we sung?

That was what I'd found in the book. And she was wet with tears and said to me, how did you know? And I said, what? She said, that song was my favorite song when I was a kid. And my sisters and I, I think she had three or four. four sisters, used to go and see operette, because that was the big musical of the time, which was written by Noel Coward, and that was our favourite song.

That is so, so precious. Thank you for sharing. In Fallen Angels, you play Julia alongside Alexandra Gilberth as Jane. Tell me about your character. So, well, there are interesting couple of characters, and Alex and I, Alexander Gilbrath and I, got together before the rehearsals to get to know each other and work on the material and that was a real luxury we had wonderful giggles together

which I think has really helped our performances we're very different people though and I like to think that he's written Julia with a degree of criticism if you like she is a colonial I think she likes to be in a superior position

and there are certain things that Alex says about me that I think are true although they're dreadful it's enormous fun to play and I think that her marriage to Fred is on the outside perfectly happy, wonderful

as they say divine 10 years of marriage and it's only really through the relationship with the girls that you find other things out because they talk about everything together and you've touched on the fact that they talk about class and politics too it's not just about sexuality this play

for me it's not I mean, I think when you look at two people who are both after the same territory, in this case it's Maurice the lover who has written to both of them in this particular weekend and said, I'm going to show up soon, it also appeared to me to be possibly about two entities wanting the same territory. And that could be looked at politically. When he wrote this, he'd had a nervous breakdown. after being in World War I. And it's hilariously funny

that as an actor, it's my job to look for what's underneath. And I found that there was a fair amount that has just beautifully been penned in there for us to take or leave as we wish. I feel guided by that his intelligence, if you like. And at the age of 23, it's just mind-blowing that he wrote about, A, women that way and be human nature at a time in our world where we're looking at the most

atrocious things going on. I didn't want to just come at this comedy with it's simply just for fun because I don't think he did. I don't think he ever does. He's always got something he wants to say in there. But as I say, it's, as my director, Chris Luscombe said, it's fun, fun, it's a comedy. That's what we're doing. And he's right. You know, it is. But there's more if you want it. You've also put together a knight of Noel Coward's songs and stories, Coward and Friends, which you've performed a few times with Stefan Bernardich, who was poised at the piano. Tell us about the show.

Well, Stefan is now known as the King of Cabaret in London. So he also was playing Noel Coward when I was at the National years ago, and he has this lasting impression on me anyway, because I fell madly in love with him and I first met him. But, yes, we have been doing it. our Noel Coward Cabaret over the last sort of four or five years and it seemed suddenly absolutely perfect timing

and in fact they had the 25th of January available in the afternoon because we're only doing an afternoon show that day of Fallen Angels so we are going to do the evening show at 7.30 our lovely Noel Coward Cabre

on Burns Night so there'll be a few hot toddies hopefully going around as well. Well you are going to give us a taste of the music I'm going to ask you a take to the mic. We're going to hear Jenny Dee performing. Where are the songs we sung with Stefan Bednarchic on the piano? We're going to hear

that track, as she was saying. It's part of the Coward and Friends Cabaret show that she's putting on one night only during the run of Fallen Angels as well. And it's also Angela Lansbury's favourite. And it's also Angela Lansbury's favourite as well.

An important fact there. Bravo. That was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Janie. Thank you, Stefan. Beautiful tones there. Blown away by that. You really spoke to each other there. That was what was very moving. What does that song mean to you, Janey? Oh, it means what I love about music, that you can sing something or listen to something, and it will take you back and inspire your own heart to love. to love. That's such a beautiful Christmas Eve message.

Thank you so much for joining us. Janie and Stefan Bednachik on the piano as well. And Fallen Angels is running at the Menia Chocolate Factory in London until the 21st of February. And Janie and Stefan will be performing coward and friends for one night only at the Menia on the 25th of January as well. Thank you to all of you who have been in touch about the art of notice.

It feels a good time at this time of the year to be talking about the small things in life and how important they are. And I'm going to read a few more. Susie says on the theme of stopping to notice, I am a kindness spotter. I try to take notice of simple acts of kindness in a day. The person who smiles and says hello,

someone helping another with a heavy bag. There is so much human kindness every day with love from Susie. Thank you, Susie, for your lovely message. this one from Fran in Welshpool who says on plane spotting where I live in rural wells the Vulcan bomber used to fly directly

over my house after negotiating the hill in front it would be very low and you would feel the vibrations and the sound of its engine long before you saw it incredible and also had a very quick note that I want to squeeze in on women in aviation my partner has an aircraft engineering business

and has had it for 20 years and in that time he has managed to find one female engineer and he desperately wants to employ more female as well. Need to go to that plain spotting group that you heard here on Woman's Hour. From all of us here on the team, thank you for your company. Thanks for listening. There's plenty more from Woman's Hour over at BBC Sounds. This is Dr Chris and Doctors Aarned here,

and we are dropping in to let you know about our new BBC Radio 4 podcast. In WhatsApp Docs, we are going to be diving into the messy, complicated world of health and well-being because it can be confusing, can't it, Zahn? That's right, Chris, the massive information out there can be contradictory, it can be overwhelming, and Chris and I get confused too. That's right, we get seduced by the marketing, the hype, the trends, so we want to be your guides through it.

And I think it's fair to say, Zan, we are going to be getting personal. We're absolutely going to be getting personal, Chris. What I want to do is bring in my own health dilemmas in the hope that we can help you with yours. Listen and subscribe to WhatsApp Docs, on BBC Sounds.