Woman's Hour - Equal pay judgement. Birth partners attending scans. Bangladesh at 50.

Episode Date: March 26, 2021

Today the Supreme Court will give its judgement on one of the largest ever equal pay claims . It could have implications for women working in retail all over the UK. It involves those working in the supermarket Asda stores, who are mainly women, who are being paid less than those working in the distribution depot, who are mainly men. The case has been going on for over 5 years. Reporter Melanie Abbott will tell us about its implications for workers across the sector and we hear reaction from Wendy Arundale, who worked at Asda in Middlesbrough for 32 years. Since the start of lockdown many pregnant women have been campaigning to have their birth partners with them when they go for scans. At the end of last year NHS Trusts in England changed their advice and said ,dependent on a risk assessment, they should do all they can to ensure pregnant women are accompanied. But those doing the scans, the sonographers, feel their rights have been overlooked. One wrote a heartfelt letter about this to the professional trade magazine, headlined "We cannot allow professional ultrasound to become entertainment." Her hospital trust won't allow her to come on the programme. But her views are echoed by Gill Harrison who is the professional voice for Ultrasound at the Society of Radiographer.Radio One’s Vick Hope presents a new BBC Sounds podcast called Songs To Live By, celebrating Black voices and experiences through the songs that shaped them. In each episode Vick talks to two guests of different generations about the music that has defined them - personally, politically, musically. She tells Krupa about some of the women involved and the music she enjoyed with her mum.And to mark Bangladesh's 50th year of independence we talk to BBC Asian Network presenter Nadia Ali and Shaz Aberdean, a community worker in Swansea.Presenter Krupa Padhy Producer Beverley Purcell

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Krupa Bhati with Friday's edition of Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme on a Friday. It's been an uncertain and unusual time to be pregnant for many women. Not having that natural support system of extended family and friends and not being able to share those tender moments associated with carrying a baby or having a newborn. Part of that pregnancy journey is of course having those ever-important scans. In many cases over the past year partners have not been

allowed to be in the room whilst that scan is taking place. Guidelines issued in December reversed that decision on the condition of a risk assessment being carried out. But in COVID times, it's caused concern amongst some sonographers and we'll hear why. If you've been pregnant over the past year, if you've had a scan with or without your partner or loved one with you, what's it been like for you? On the subject of life journeys, what would the soundtrack to different parts of your life be? We're going to introduce you to a new podcast called Songs to Live By. It celebrates black voices through the tracks and lyrics that mean something to the guests.

And I'd love to hear the songs that have defined the various chapters of your life too. And lockdown secrets. Do you have any? A stationery shop in London has been posting blank postcards to anyone who asks for one. In return, they've asked for you to share your lockdown secrets. And the results have been eye-opening, endearing and entertaining. We're going to hear from the artists behind the initiative. And we're hoping that you're also going to let us into your lockdown secrets too.

Anonymously, of course. You can text women's hour on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate and do check with your network provider for the exact costs and on social media you'll find us on the handle at bbc women's hour that's on twitter and on instagram and of course you can email us through our website please do get in touch but first you may have heard in our bulletin just a moment ago, Britain's Supreme Court has just ruled that the Asda supermarkets workers are entitled to compare themselves to workers at the group's distribution centres.

This is a key victory for shop workers in their long running dispute over equal pay. And it could have implications for women working in retail all over the country. It involves those working in the supermarket and these are mostly women and we're going to get more details on this with our reporter Melanie Abbott who has the latest. Melanie what have we heard? Yes I've just been watching Lady Arden hand down her judgment this morning literally just before 10 o'clock. And she talked about what the case really rests on and what it rests on is whether the mainly women working in the supermarkets can compare their roles to the people working in the distribution depots who are

mainly men. Now, according to the women working in the stores, they argue that this is a case of discrimination. They're getting paid between £1.50 and £3 less an hour than the men in the stores, they argue that this is a case of discrimination. They're getting paid between £1.50 and £3 less an hour than the men in the distribution depots. So what Lady Arden was looking at was whether those roles can be compared. Now, there is legislation that says that normally equal pay, the person has to be working in the same place. But there is an exception to this, what's called the cross-estab the same place. But there is an exception to this, what's called the cross-establishment clause. And I don't want to get into too much detail here, but basically it says that if the people working in different places are on the same terms and

conditions, then you can compare their roles. Now, ASDA has been arguing that they're not on the same common terms, as it's known. They are on different terms and conditions and that exception doesn't apply in this case. But the Supreme Court has overruled that. Lady Arden dismissed their appeal and said that the roles can be compared. A relief, I'm sure, for many who have been taking on ASDA for what has been a number of years because this case has been rumbling on for a while now, hasn't it?

It has. It actually started back in 2014. That's when the women at ASDA stores decided that they wanted to bring in an equal pay claim. An original tribunal ruled that they were right and they could compare their roles with the men in the depots. ASDA has appealed twice and failed twice. And so now the Supreme Court has said that this appeal is dismissed. It's not the end of the story, as we will hear, I'm sure, shortly. But it is quite a major step forward, I think. And it has been watched, as you say, very, very closely by there are 45,000 women now, I think, bringing this claim from Asda and lots of others from other stores too. And of course, it's being watched extremely closely by the retailers. Well, do stay with us, Melanie, because we can now talk to one of the women behind the claim,

Wendy Arundel, who worked at Asda in Middlesbrough for 32 years until July 2019. Melanie, quite a long road. This litigation began some years ago, as Melanie was telling us. Wendy, what's your reaction? I'm delighted, actually, for me as the colleagues, as well as it's one step closer to achieving equal pay for women and men. Absolutely. And for years, I understand, you know, ASDA has been a huge part of your life. I mean, at one point, your whole family were working there, as I understand it, your husband, your two children. And, you understand, you know, ASDA's been a huge part of your life. I mean, at one point, your whole family were working there, as I understand it, your husband, your two children. And, you know, you've also won the Middlesbrough Mayor's Award for charitable work with ASDA. So a huge part of your life.

You know, what did you think when you found out that men at the nearby depot were getting paid more, including one of those men was actually your husband? Not very happy, a bit cheesed off. Of course. And what were those conversations you were having? I mean, you know, you're both working there. You're both committed to the company. Well, why weren't we paid equal? Why shouldn't we have been equal? We were doing equal jobs. Why couldn't we have been paid equal? Absolutely. And on the, you know And that's the issue of money, but generally working at ASDA,

I mean, it's played such a big part of your life. And the kind of work you were doing, how different do you believe it was to what your husband was doing in terms of those core skills? They were absolutely equal because he used to help me and I used to help him. I went down the depot to help him with air funders.

He came out to do quick cricket with me in our local community and other jobs. We laid wreaths for Remembrance Sunday and things like that. So we were equal. Were you expecting to get this verdict? I was hoping. And I'm absolutely so pleased. And I'm pleased for everybody as the colleagues because it's something that we needed to be there. Have you spoken to your colleagues or your former colleagues?

Not yet. But I'm assuming there are going to be some Zoom celebrations of course. I don't know about that one but when I go into store I will have a lot of people asking me the questions and what about your husband how's he feeling he's feeling fine because he says we should have been paid equal you know from the very outset you're on the same page yeah yeah did you ever try working in the depot yes I applied for the job he applied for and he got it. There you go. Well, listen, thank you, Wendy, for joining us here on the programme and giving us your take on this verdict. Melanie is still with us. Melanie, what kind of long term implications might this have? Yeah, well, as I intimated, this isn't the end of the line.

And the judge, Lady Arden, was very keen to point this out this morning. She said that this is the first stage in what is going to be a long process. The legal team bringing this claim, Lee Day, they must now prove that the work of those in the store is of equal value to the work of those in the depots. And for that, they look at things like skills, knowledge, training. So unless ASDA concedes this point and looking at their track record, that seems pretty unlikely. It's looking like there will be another industrial tribunal to decide that. Then there's yet another stage to consider if there might be other reasons apart from gender why they shouldn't get

equal pay. So maybe geographic location, market forces or working different hours. Now, as we said, there is a lot riding on this. A total of 44,000, 45,000 workers could be affected. And if this is ultimately successful, then it could cost retailers between eight and 10 billion pounds. Similar claims are being brought by people, women at Sainsbury's, Tesco, Co-op, Morrison's and Next. Of course, the supermarkets have done very well in lockdown with them returning the government support that they've been given during Covid. So I'm not sure how much sympathy there'll be for them. But of course, it is going to be a big and a long running battle, I think. Now, as for ASDA itself, they have told us that they are defending these claims because the pay in the stores and distribution centres is the same

for colleagues doing the same jobs, regardless of their gender, they say. They argue that retail and distribution are very different sectors with their own distinct skill sets and pay rates. That's what they've sent us in a statement this morning. And they say that ASDA has always paid colleagues the market rate in these sectors. And they say that they remain confident about their case. So obviously going to carry on fighting. Melanie, thank you for your insights there. There'll be plenty more on that story across the BBC throughout the course of the day and Wendy congratulations to you and your colleagues and we wish you all the very best.

Right let's move on to something a little different now we're going to talk about secrets specifically lockdown secrets because people have been anonymously sharing their lockdown secrets on postcards as part of an arts project launched by Eleanor Tattersfield, the founder of Marby & Elm print shop and stationery store in London. And she's here to tell me more about it. Welcome to the programme, Eleanor. Hi, thanks for having me. First of all, where did this idea come from? I think it came from a culmination of a lot of different things really one was that the shop is obviously closed in lockdown and it was a nice way of me connecting

with my Instagram followers and the customers that I couldn't see on a regular basis in an analog and sort of natural way for a stationer also I was listening to the brilliant podcast The Apology Line which was all about a sort of answer machine confessional, which seemed like such a brilliant idea. I love the idea of people being able to anonymously and creatively get some sort of something different about lockdown, some secret that they've possibly been living with some strange new habit that they might have picked up or been living during this strange period and be able to put it all down on one postcard and send it in to me so that I can collect them collate them archive them I mean I I'm stunned by the level of creativity and the kind of secrets that people have been sharing.

And I want you to share some of those with us. I know these have been sent to you in confidence in part, but it would be interesting to hear what people have been telling you. I mean, it's really interesting. It's a full sort of gamut, if you can imagine, of human experience, of course, from funny food fads like eating an angel delight butterscotch variety, I might add, every Sunday, to gorging on pizzas, to going to the park, pretending that you're going for a walk

and having a secret sit down, a little treat and snack, to, I mean, there's obviously a lot about self-love, can we call it? No, let's call it masturbation. That's what it is. There's a lot about that. There's a lot about, and there's a lot about, which, I mean, was a theme that I was a little bit surprised by. A lot of people not wanting to unlock, you know, a lot of people fearing the next change. A lot of people wanting to express something that they maybe wanted to express their whole lives, but have had a lot of time to ruminate and think about. And then maybe the actual process, I think, is quite cathartic of sitting down and making something and putting this big, heavy thing that you have in your life that you've been

thinking about possibly the last year and putting it all down. Well, we all know the therapeutic value of journaling, but this feels like it's one step further than that, because looking at your Instagram feed, what I'm seeing is colour and texture and people have really gone all out. to it further than that because looking at your Instagram feed what I'm seeing is colour and you know texture and people have really gone all out they have really decorated these postcards. Absolutely I just can't even tell you how thrilling it is to go open my shop in the morning and see this mat full of colour sequins you know sharpies things stuck things crumpled I mean people have really gone to town in the most unbelievable creative way I think how many people have been in touch

because I saw I saw a post from you saying how excited you are when you see the postman come and you see all those lovely postcards scattered at the entrance it It's incredible. I mean, I think that now I've probably sent maybe 800 to 1,000 out and I'm getting back every day 20 to 30 postcards of which, you know, there is no greater pleasure in my life than sitting down with my cup of coffee and having 30 people's inner lives in my hands. And it's food, it's relationships, it's emotions. What has been the most surprising oh the most surprising has been god this sounds quite dark for this morning but let's go for it

because it's the truth the most surprising are the ones that um you know talk about the joy of not sealing ones in laws and and the and some people wishing that possibly for whatever reasons, and we don't know what those reasons are, that their relatives hadn't survived. You know, if maybe they were ill or maybe they were unwell for a long time, you know, those sorts of things, which are so deep and real secrets, you feel,

like they could not express that in their everyday life. Absolutely. This is fascinating. I'd love to hear more. And if you'd like to learn more about Eleanor's project, pop over to her Instagram feed at at Marvie and Elm. There's plenty more lovely pictures of what she's been doing there. And of course, if you just can't wait, then do pop us an email, pop us a note and tell us what your lockdown secret has been on Twitter, on Instagram or on email. We're at BBC Women's Hour. And of course, we'll keep your secret anonymous as well. Eleanor Tattersall, thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks for having me. Today is the official Independence Day of Bangladesh. BBC Asian Network have begun a year of celebrations to mark Bangladesh's 50th year. Now, to put this into context, in March 1971, Pakistani troops carried out a raid against prominent Bengali nationalists and intellectuals in an attempt to curb the growing independence movement in what was then called East Pakistan. It marked the beginning of the Bangladesh Liberation War. After nine months of conflict, East Pakistan broke away from West Pakistan and became the independent state of Bangladesh on the 16th of December. The war left three million

people dead and a further 10 million people displaced in India. The region, of course, was once all a part of the British Empire as it ruled over the subcontinent. According to the most recent census, there are now over 450,000 Bangladeshis living in Britain today. After the Second World War, many, mostly men, immigrated to the UK to find employment and send money home to their families. And many of their wives and children joined them in the UK after 1971. It is a time for reflection, for analysis, for celebration.

And we're going to do just that with Nadia Ali, who presents the Bangladesh Music Entertainment, a new show on the BBC Asian Network and Ashaz Abedin, who is a community worker from Swansea. Thank you to both of you for joining us. Nadia, take us back to Bangladesh 50 years ago and, you know, the tales you've heard from your elders about what it was like. Thank you so much. I mean, you know, 50 years ago on this day is when Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, who we know as Bongobong, a friend of Bengal, who declared that Bangladesh is now sovereign and an independent country, Bangladesh. And this is where it all started.

The blood, the sweat, the passion, you know, the love for Bangladesh started on this day. And, you know, 50 years later, I mean, like you mentioned earlier that, you know, we see nearly 450 000 uh Bangladeshis here in the UK and that includes my grandmother so all these tales that we are going to discuss today is from what I've heard from my grandmother my grandfather my father and you know my I my grandmother was quite lucky the she came to the UK in 1970 just before the war had started um and when I speak to her about it she always reminds me that actually this particular um love for Bangladesh started in 1952 when Bangladesh wanted their language. So, you know, they wanted their language. They wanted Bangla in East Pakistan as the main language, state language,

and they had to fight for that. And actually the first four martyrs for that war was my grandmother's... One was my grandmother's cousin brother, who is mentioned in the national anthem, in the Bangladeshi language anthem. So it actually started in 1952, which then carried on in 1971, when they realised actually, we should be an independent country. And of course, many lives were lost. But today, I mean, if we look at it now here in Britain and around the world, today is a day to celebrate and to remember those that lost their lives, sacrificed their lives for us to have a country like Bangladesh.

Nadia, it's so lovely to hear you so passionate about the history of your motherland. And I guess I often feel like when we talk about South Asia, we hear about the partition of india and the creation of pakistan a great deal and often bangladesh sometimes to put it bluntly gets a bit sidelined and the kind of rich history of the country does get sidelined as just let's bring you in here you too have got some elders in your family who talk about the memories of the war what have what have they shared hi um yes my mum has shared quite a a lot about her experience because she was in Bangladesh during that war period and she remembers she was about 14 years old and she's part of a big family, predominantly girls, so my grandparents were very worried about their safety and the

extended family safety, so they had bunkers around their property. So all the girls would be put into the bunkers and food and whatnot provisions would be provided there. They were quite tightly closed bunkers. And then the men would be guarding the property. My mum came from a very affluent background, wealthy as well. So they had quite a lot of riches to protect. So the men were there guarding the

property guarding the wealth my mum actually told me that my grandmother saved up some jewelry to give away to her daughters when they get married so she put them in a little hanky all put together wrapped up and given to one of my mum's sisters the older sister and then they went into the bunker protecting that themselves while the men were up looking after the house. My mum also said that when they were moving from one location to another, they would have to do it in the middle of the night. And they'd be walking and walking in the dark, fearful. And my grandparents would ensure that they'd be dressed in rags and look a lot older than their age and frail and looked as if they had a lot of illness so that they wouldn't attract the attention of of the wrong people

because there was a lot of abuse and rape all that ongoing so my grandparents were very very fearful you know back in the days girls were getting married quite young you know 18 before 18 to be honest so that's why they were quite conscious that they didn't want their daughters to be abused so they were very very scared it was a very dark time as my mum described it and she remembers a lot of noise and aircrafts and bombs and then there'd be news coming in where the men from the family would come in and say so-and-so area has been bombed just now or so-and-so area has been attacked just now. As a child, as a teenager, she remembers being very, very fearful and not knowing whether they would wake up the following day. You again describe her memory so vividly. So thank you.

Of course, after that period and even prior to that, after the Second World War, there was large immigration of Bangladeshi men to the UK. And Nadia, I believe your father was one of them or your grandfather. Tell us about that. So my grandfather came to the UK in the 60s, in the 60s before the war. So it was still East Pakistan. And he came to the country to study, to become a barrister. And, you know, it was such a struggle for him when he did come. You know back in the days if we look at the 60s you know he faced racism um he English was not his first language and you know there weren't many uh not even Bangladeshis there weren't

many Asians at the time in the UK so you know being a Bangladeshi as you quite rightly mentioned uh when we when we look at South Asia as a whole, Bangladesh usually gets forgotten about. And I think it's because it's such a young country, you know, it's 50 years old and we do need more representation and we're getting it. And like you mentioned, we're getting that through, you know, places like BBC Asian Network. And when my grandfather came at the time, there wasn't, there was no representation. You know, he was, he was one of the only British Bangladeshis here that could speak English, that was educated. So I remember, I mean, growing up, even growing up in the 80s, you know, I was really, I was baby then. I was born in 84. But my, I remember that there would be a queue of people outside the council flat where my grandfather, my grandmother lived.

And it would be, you know, Bangladeshis that would need help with their bills, that needed help with writing letters, that needed, you know, help with their immigration status. And my granddad would help them for free because he felt like he had to, that we had to be united. We had to be one. And it brings me quite nicely into my grandmother, because my grandfather was here for seven years without my grandmother. So my grandmother, like Shaz mentioned, you know, back in the days they used to get married at such a young age, my grandmother got married when she was 15, had my father at 16, and then had my auntie at twin uh sorry 16 yeah about 19

yeah she went to utah university which is the equivalent to oxford she studied because my grandfather said it was very important for her to be educated and for her to um pass that on to her children so he managed to bring my grandmother to the UK in the 70s, just before the war, because my grandmother was very worried, you know, she could hear noises, she could hear words about something happening very soon. So my grandfather, just in time, managed to bring his family over to the UK. And at that time, when they did come, you know, they lived in a one bedroom flat, they had to, they had to share a communal toilet and bathtub. They used to have a bath once a week because that's how it was.

But my grandfather really supported my grandmother and said, no, you're going to study. You know, we need to empower other women around us, Asian women. And he did. She trained as a schoolteacher here in the UK and wore a sari to a school. She was a proper school teacher in primary school, which is huge. That's a lot of work to put on seven yards every morning before you go and teach 30 kids. Hats off to your mother.

I know, my god, my mother. She had her bindi. She was ready. She was ready for school. And I've actually got a beautiful picture of where she, at that time in the late 70s, you know, the school teachers were predominantly white females. And she actually took all her saris in one Eid and said,

we're all going to dress up in saris. And she did. And she made them. And, you know, and it's just so beautiful to see that, you know, from Bangladesh 50 years ago to now in Britain, how much we've come forward. And I see that in my grandparents. Shaz, what about your family's tale? I believe your family have been involved in the restaurant industry.

Yes. Well, my dad came over to the UK before the war broke off. And when the situation was terrible in Bangladesh, my dad was the earner here, sending money back home to support his family. So the only way of earning at the time was through a trade that was quite common. So catering, restaurant. My dad's brother-in-law opened up a restaurant in Swansea, one of the first in Swansea, known as Bombay Grill. And although it was a restaurant owned by Bengalis, run by Bengalis, the name Bombay Grill was there just so that people knew India a lot better than Bangladesh. You know, the reasons we've just spoken about. And so dad worked there pretty much best part of his youth and supported his family in Bangladesh. But I imagine it kind of been easy moving to somewhere like Swansea, not very diverse at that time, at least.

It can't have been easy. No, it wasn't. I think there was a minority of BAME community residents here. And I think the largest was Bangladeshi community at the time. And you would only talk about a few households and they all knew each other. And over time time that has grown obviously but when my dad was here he remembers that there was probably a handful of households that they would all communicate with each other and with that one restaurant most of the men from those families worked in that one restaurant and so they were a unit and

they would play pray above another restaurant involved during that time and then they would pray above that restaurant. And then, like Nadia has described, the community stuck together. They didn't know where else to go. Language was a huge issue. There were few people who were educated amongst that group. So they stuck together, supported each other. And yeah, like during Eid and other festivals, they would come together and celebrate together. It was all about, you know, being there for one another in that small network they had created. You know, it's lovely to hear you both so proud of your heritage. How are you going to be marking 50 years of Bangladesh? Nadia and then Shaz, please do come on in.

Well, I'm doing this through the BBC Asian Network, where we are celebrating 50 years of Bangladesh independence. We started off on Monday and this morning, actually, can I just mention this is so big on The Breakfast Show on Asian Network. Joy Crooks, who is who's a Brit Award nominee. She at the BBC Radio Theatre did a live session and for the first ever time sung a Bangla song. That is massive. That's really, really big. And of course, throughout the week, we had lots of guests on from different sectors just celebrating being a British Bangladeshi.

And of course, you can also go onto BBC Sounds radio app and just search Bangladesh at 50 and you can find out more about it. And on Sunday, on my show, live from 3 till 5 p.m. on BBC Age Network, I will be having a Bangla party where I have lots of Bangladeshi names across the world coming on to celebrate 50 years of our country. Sounds great. Ashaz? We'd be celebrating as a family. family basically language is quite important within our family i'm one of seven siblings and we've grown up learning the language speaking the language

quite fluently with it around each other when it comes to my the new generation my nieces and nephews they tend to shy away from speaking it's tougher with the next generation yeah so we created this game where our nieces and nephews would have to narrate some of the stories that they know in Bangla. Good luck. Obviously, it will have to happen via a digital platform, whether it's WhatsApp or not. But this is what we'll be celebrating, the heritage of the language that we have got amongst us now. It sounds very ambitious. Thank you so much, Nadia Ali and Shaz Abedin. Thank you to you both.

Here on Women's Hour, we're looking for groups of women counting down the days until they can get together again. And we want to hear the stories of the relationships that keep us going and the laughter and the love of old mates reunited. Are you currently planning a big night out,

a walking weekend, a hotel break, whatever it might be with your female friends when it could be possible again? Will it be raucous? Will it be reflective? How are you going to be different when you're with them? Please do tell us at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter or on Instagram. And of course, you can email us through our website. And don't forget, you can always catch up with any of our programmes on BBC Sounds. Some of you have been getting in touch. I asked a couple of a few minutes ago about your lockdown secrets.

We've had this message saying I'm 28. I live on my own and I've started talking to my teddy bear in lockdown. I've had him since I was a child and talking to him gives me access to almost a childlike imagination where you can escape your reality into a totally other magical world. Do keep them coming in. Always keen to hear your lockdown secrets. And I promise they will be kept anonymous. So do get in touch. Being pregnant during the past year has been far from a conventional experience for many women, but also for those who look after these women at clinics and hospitals.

Both parties have had to adapt to new rules and environments. Now, with these thoughts in mind, many people have been using the hashtag But Not Maternity, a campaign that calls for a review of maternity care restrictions across the UK during COVID-19. Now, this includes pregnant women having their partners with them when they go for scans, an area that we're going to look at now. The guidance was changed for NHS Trust, telling them, dependent on a risk assessment,

they should do all they can to ensure pregnant women are accompanied for their scans. But those doing the scans, the sonographers, feel their rights have been overlooked. To give you an example, one wrote a letter about this to the professional trade magazine headline, We cannot allow professionalound to Become Entertainment. Her hospital trust won't allow her to come on the programme, but her views are echoed by Jill Harrison, who is the professional voice for ultrasound at the Society of Radiographers. Welcome to the programme, Jill.

Hello, thank you for having us. Hi. Now, most women want their birth partner to be with them for an ultrasound scan. What have been the particular difficulties you face with this in lockdown? There's been a number of difficulties. I think the biggest is that we know how important it is for parents to be there at the scan. And we haven't been able to have a support person in the early stages. And in some cases, it's still not able to, we're still not able to accommodate a partner because of the risk to other patients.

Our rooms are quite often small. Some of them have got limited ventilation. We've had departments risk assessments where people have said, well, just leave the door open while you're scanning, which is completely inappropriate. Sonographers have been worried about the risk to other patients. A lot of them scan all sorts of different things, not just pregnancy. So they've got patients coming who are having cancer treatment

and they're concerned about the risk to them. Plus pregnant patients are also at higher risk of complications with COVID. We've also then got to think that the sonographers are human as well. They're parents. They are carers for their own families. Some of them have got shielding partners. So the risk of more people in the scan room is huge. What I'm hearing from you is a list. I mean, it just sounds like a great deal of pressure on you. Yeah, it is. On the sonographers, our members members they've said it's really being pressurized one of the other problems they've they've had is the time we get 15 minutes 20 minutes or 30 minutes depending on the kind of scan they've got to do absolutely everything

from getting the patient in from the waiting room consenting them doing the scan which is a really complex procedure it's not as simple as we make it look and then they've got to interpret their findings discuss the findings and still clean the room afterwards and give the room time to be cleaned decontaminated properly before the next patient if they find something unexpected we've been our members have been telling us they've been ringing the phone the partner in the car and asking the partner if they can come into the scan room. Or they've been getting them on the telephone so that they can actually be involved in that discussion. That's really challenging, not only for the woman who's waiting for the partner to come in, the partner coming in from the car, but also the sonographer trying to communicate with this face mask is to communicate yeah I mean just link to what you're saying we've had this message in saying on the 1st of April I went for a regular scan alone only to find out that the baby's

heartbeat had stopped I couldn't cry nor talk the midwife was quiet she gave me a tight hug then I broke into tears I wished I had my partner in me at that time it is difficult for all parties isn't it absolutely it's really difficult and sonographers understand that challenge for for parents and we are as a society we are trying to help people with mitigating risks so that partners can come back in. But what we have found is that there's been a lot of aggression and we've had partners refusing to wear face coverings. We've had them refusing to do lateral flow tests. We've had really horrible experiences where people have been trolled on social media.

It's increasing the anxiety, which actually impacts on performance, which we don't want. No sonographer wants to make a mistake because this is, it's life-changing implications if you get it wrong. We've got sonographers now saying that they're so demoralised, they want to leave the profession, which is frightening for us. Wow. Okay. I just want to read you the statement from the organisation Birth Rights who have been behind this campaign or partly behind it. They said that Birth Rights has heard from hundreds of people during the pandemic whose partner has been excluded from scans, missing that precious moment of hearing your baby's heartbeat for the first time altogether. In the worst cases, women have heard that their baby's heartbeat has stopped beating on their own. The impact cannot be underestimated.

Being able to join a scan remotely would have made such a difference over the past year. The evidence shows involving partners in scans makes a difference to the clinical outcomes of pregnant women and her baby and our legal advice states that this must be taken into account. The world has evolved so much in the past year and we see no reason why joining a scan appointment remotely should not be a part of the new normal. What do you make of this having a video link involved? I think we've got to look at the balance between what parents want and need but also what we can provide in the time.

The NHS is commissioned to do a 20 minute or a 30 minute scan. In that time, I've already said how much we have to do as a sonographer. We've got to concentrate. We are looking at the heart at 20 weeks is the size of a thumbnail. We've got to look at the minutest detail of that. If we've got to take time setting up a video conferencing, we've got someone down the line. We all know about the technological failures

of the last year. Some of our scan rooms are in basements um really quite challenging situations most of the guidance that talks about consultations and being available is about telephone consultations and that's very different to being recorded doing the whole examination and And we are, as I said earlier, we're really trying to push for partners to come back into the scan rooms because actually that's where they should be. Jill Harrington, sorry, Jill.

Sorry, stepping on you there. Jill Harrington from the Society of Radiographers. We wish you all the best with the work that you are doing. And many of you have been getting in touch. I'll try and squeeze in these very important messages a little later in the programme. Let's turn to something slightly different music. Radio 1's Vic Hope presents a new BBC Sounds podcast called Songs to Live By, celebrating black voices and experiences through the songs that shape them. In each episode Vic talks to two guests of different generations about the music that has defined them personally, politically and musically.

Let's say hello to Vic, who joins us now. Morning. Morning. How are you? Thanks for having me. I listened to your podcast this morning. I loved it. I listened to the one with Jordan and Benjamin Zephaniah.

And I came away thinking about which songs I should be adding to my life list as well. Talk us through the idea behind the podcast. Well, we wanted to celebrate Black voices. We wanted to uplift them. But we also are very, very conscious of the fact that, and this has been said a lot over the last year, you can't enjoy the rhythm and ignore the blues. So we wanted to acknowledge the blues.

We wanted to talk about the roots that we've come from but also the roots that we've taken where we are going and look with optimism to the future and we all have a track don't we we all have something that's soundtracked those moments in our lives whether it's when you were creeping out the house to go to a hip-hop club or maybe it was the afro beat that you used to dance with your parents to on a saturday night or the gospel that you listen to in church. So all of those moments that have shaped us and all of those stories that have shaped us,

they have soundtracks and it's so lovely to get to hear them. And it's funny because before listening to the podcast, I hadn't thought long and hard about this, but with my walk on the way to the BBC today, I was thinking, which five songs might I choose? Which two songs might I choose? It's hard, isn't it? It's hard.

It's so hard. It's really hard. But you've been working on this for quite a long time now. What music has shaped you? Okay, so I realise I've been asking this of all my guests. Can you bring two tracks? And I thought, it's hard. Yeah, I can't do it myself.

But if I had to choose a track, I know that when I was growing up, I grew up in Newcastle and there weren't many other black people and I didn't know anyone else who who listened to Motown no one at my school listened to Motown but that was a thing that we had in our house yeah and um Diana Ross and the Supremes me and my mum used to just listen religiously to the greatest hits and we used to make up dance routines to the songs and there was one song in particular Can't Harry Love, that me and my mum made up dance routines. We used to do it for my dad and my brothers, whether they liked it or not. And my mum always told me that when she was at school,

she was the only black person alongside her sister and one other girl. And they made a bit of a Supremes tribute act and they used to perform at their talent show. And it just felt so special. I felt like this was our song. It was our music. It was my Motown. And it just felt so special. I felt like this was our song. It was our music. It was my Motown.

And it will always hold a really special place in my heart. So I think I would have to go with Can't Hurry Love by Supreme. You know what? I'm listening to this and I'm not of the same racial heritage background as you, but my parents had only two vinyls back in the day, in the 80s. They had Agadou and they had The Supremes. And we used to do the same things. It must have been the thing of the 70s and the 80s.

There are lots of women involved in upcoming episodes. Tell us about them. Okay, so we've got a new episode that's dropped today and it is so special. I say this about every episode, but it really is. So we've got Lady Phil, who's the founder of UK Black Pride and Sophie Duker, who's comedian and they bring I mean they bring some bangers there's some disco some massive Gloria Gaynor there's some Lady Dynamite in there and

there's a really special moment and I didn't realize how recently um Sophie had come out to her parents where she says to Lady Phil look I I needed UK Black Pride at this time in my life because I needed that support that solidarity and it was music that helped get me through and we were all crying it was such a moment but that yeah they're so incredible um obviously Benjamin Zephaniah and Jordan Stevens swapping stories yeah Benjamin talking about how he'd sent a letter to Bob Marley and Bob Marley remembered him when he finally met him. And then Jordan saying,

I sent a letter to Dizzy Rascal, then I met him and I was like, hi, it's me. And he did not remember. But we've got some incredible people coming out. We've got ZZ Mills, Tiffany Calver, Sophie Takur, Misha Paris, Joseph, Patterson Joseph, Dane Baptiste.

It's, yeah, it's honestly, it's been really inspiring. Exciting lineup. Absolutely. Really, really inspiring. And interestingly, when I it's honestly, it's been really inspiring. Exciting lineup. Absolutely. Really, really inspiring. And interestingly, when I was listening this morning, I was struck by how many times both men talked about their mothers and that kind of link between your mum and music.

And you touched on it there as well. I think that when we're talking about our past, we're talking about our history, we're talking about who's inspired our passions and who we've become. It's hard not to talk about your mother. Yeah, I do. Yeah. But I mean, we cover everything from civil rights to Windrush to black LGBTQ plus pride to racism and activism in the diaspora.

But also it's about heritage. It's about culture. It's about the roots we've taken, the roots that we've come from. It's about the rhythm and it's about the blues. Vicky Hope from Radio 1 talking about her new podcast, Songs to Live By, do check it out. And thank you to all of you for listening to this edition of Women's Hour. Do join us again next time. Hi, Russell Cain here. I just want to tell you about Evil Genius.

It's the show where we take legends and icons from history everyone from henry the eighth to gandhi richard pryor mary stopes dr seuss and i have a panel of funny people who are gathered around my desk and are subjected to horrific fact bombs which reveal things about their heroes they don't want to hear. At the end of the lively mind tennis, they must vote evil or genius. Cancel Mother Teresa or keep her. By the way, listen to that episode. She was absolutely vile. Subscribe to Evil Genius on BBC Sounds. For over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.