Woman's Hour - Erin Doherty in The Crucible, Strip clubs, Brazilian butt lifts, Angela Lansbury

Episode Date: October 12, 2022

Based on the Salem trials in Massachusetts in 1692, where young girls accused their elders of satanism, a new production of Arthur Miller's modern classic The Crucible has just opened at the National Theatre in London. Actor Erin Doherty, best known for her portrayal of a young Princess Anne in Netflix series The Crown, plays Abigail Williams, the girl whose spurned affections spark the witch hunt. She joins Jessica.Strip clubs in Edinburgh will be banned from April next year, but the venues and the strippers who work in them are fighting the decision. Supporters of the ban say it's upholding the Scottish Government's strategy on Violence Against Women and Girls which says stripping encompasses and engenders violence against women and girls. But strippers say it will impact their ability to earn a living and force them into dangerous working conditions at underground clubs. Jessica is joined by Tess Herrman from the Union of Sex Workers and also by former Labour councillor and Scotsman columnist Susan Dalgety.Dame Angela Lansbury, who won international acclaim as the star of the US TV crime series Murder, She Wrote, has died at the age of 96. The three-time Oscar nominee had a career spanning eight decades, across film, theatre and TV. She was born in London in 1925. When she moved to New York, she was discovered by a film executive who gave her, her first role as a maid in the 1944 film Gaslight. In 1973, Woman's Hour presenter Sue McGregor caught up with Dame Angela when she was performing in the stage show Gypsy. As university students settle in, are you experiencing empty nest syndrome? Listener Natalie Paddick got in touch to tell us about her feelings of loss now that all her children have left home. She joins Jessica along with author Celia Dodd who's written about the Empty Nest subtitled, 'Your Changing Family, Your New Direction'.For our occasional series Girl’s World, Ena Miller went to talk to 14-year-olds Ruby, Nyima and Azelea at their school in Stroud.A Brazilian butt lift is a procedure where fat, usually from the stomach and back, is injected into the buttocks to change their shape and size. In 2018 - after the death of Leah Cambridge who had flown to Turkey to have the surgery - the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, or BAAPS, advised their members not to perform them. But this week they've released new recommendations they hope will make the procedure safer. Joining Jessica are the President of BAAPS, Marc Pacifico, and director Louise Coleman whose documentary The Bottom Line is on ITV Hub.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. UK women in their thousands are having their bottoms surgically enhanced to change its shape and size. Some women have died from this Brazilian butt lift procedure in recent years and UK cosmetic surgeons have been given new recommendations to hopefully make the procedure safer. We'll be finding out why so many are getting BBLs despite the risks. Also now students are settling in at university are you

suffering from empty nest syndrome? One listener got in touch with us who is feeling a little lost now that her children have all left home. Are you experiencing this? Have your children gone off to university perhaps or maybe moved in with a partner or gone off to travel? Maybe you've experienced it more than once as each of your children have left. How did you get through it? Get in touch. You can text us on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard message rate. You can WhatsApp us as well on 03700100444. That's 03700100444. Remember, though, that data charges may apply, so you might want to use Wi-Fi. And you can always email us through our website as well. We're at BBC Woman's Hour on social media. It would be really good to have you all involved in our discussion about how people can better prepare themselves and the coping mechanisms they can use if they're suffering from emptiness syndrome. Plus, we pay tribute to actor Dame Angela Lansbury, who has died aged 96. She was nominated for three Oscars during a career that spanned 80 years. We've dug deep into the Woman's Hour archives to bring you a fascinating

discussion that she had on our programme back in 1973, talking about her life and career. And joining us this morning is actor Erin Doherty, who you might know from the Netflix series The Crown, where she played a young Princess Anne. Erin is now starring in The Crucible at the National Theatre in London, and we'll be discussing how she chooses her roles and also how she might have actually been a footballer in another life. But first, strip clubs in Edinburgh will be banned from April next year, but the venues and the strippers who work in them are fighting the decision. Supporters of the ban say it's upholding the Scottish government's strategy on violence against women and girls, which says stripping encompasses and engenders violence against women and girls. But the strippers themselves say it will impact their ability to earn a living

and could force them into dangerous working conditions at underground clubs. I'm joined now by Tess Herman from the Union of Sex Workers and also by former Labour councillor and Scotsman columnist Susan Dalgety. Good morning to you both. Susan, I'll come to you first. Just give us an idea of your thoughts on this ban. Yes, I'm very pleased that Edinburgh City Council, which is a Labour minority administration, has finally decided to adopt a zero tolerance attitude towards strip clubs. I understand the arguments about finding the women who work there other ways of earning a living,

and I hope the council lives up to their promise of working with the women to help them move on to a better employment. But I think Edinburgh's decision sends a really strong message to the rest of Scotland and the rest of the UK that we should, as a society, have a zero tolerance against using women as sexual entertainment. I understand you used to support strip clubs in terms of their rights to exist, didn't you? Yes, yes. When I was a young councillor in the 90s in Edinburgh I supported the licensing of saunas in other words brothels.

The Labour administration then had brought that policy in mostly to tackle the HIV AIDS epidemic that Edinburgh has suffered from, particularly in the heterosexual community because of sharing of needles. My opinion has changed considerably since then as I've grown older and as I understand a bit more about the impact of sex work on women, it is exploitative. It's as simple as that. Strip clubs are living porn. They turn women, they treat women not as full, equal human beings with men,

but as sexual playthings. I think it sends totally the wrong message to all the young women in our society. I'm delighted that Edinburgh has decided to ban them. As it stands, it's legal. Isn't it a choice for these women? It is a choice, but it's a choice that I would rather society didn't condone. I think it's really important that councils and governments develop a society where women are respected on an equal basis with men. The union who is taking this to court suggests that it is indirect sex discrimination to condone and to give licences for sexual entertainment, which at the end of the day is simply the exploitation of women and their bodies.

And are you concerned that these women, if the ban is upheld, will be out of work at a time where everyone is worrying about money, worrying about the cost of living, and it also could push them into more dangerous working conditions, working at underground clubs. I think when Bristol was considering the same policy, there was some significant research that showed that the women weren't pushed into the illegal clubs. Of course, I am concerned about their livelihood, which is why I am hopeful. Well,

I think absolutely the Edinburgh City Council should keep their promise to work with the women to find other ways of them either retraining or moving into other areas of employment. That's absolutely crucial. You can't just take someone's, at the moment, legitimate employment away and leave a vacuum. You have to work with the women to move them on. So why do you think that Edinburgh Council didn't want the strippers themselves to get involved in this judicial review? The strip club owners are the main petitioners, but the council went to the court of session, didn't it, to try and prevent the strippers from voicing their opinion? I am not sure. I can't speak on behalf of Edinburgh City Council. I understand why the union will want to stand up for their members.

That's what trade unions do, and it's absolutely the right thing for them to do but my view is the Edinburgh City Council took absolutely the right decision and I personally would like to see every council in Scotland and across the UK having a zero tolerance towards sexual entertainment licenses. And this case doesn't come without cost. There are very high legal fees to be paid should the club owners, the strip club owners, have this ban kind of turned around. So they would have to have their financial fees, their legal fees paid for. And it comes at a time, again, as I say, there's so much financial hardship. This could be a great financial cost to Edinburgh Council.

Again, I couldn't comment on the cost of that. I'm not a legal expert. However, what I would say is that the councillors took a democratic decision after thinking about this carefully and receiving reports from officials. So that's a democratic decision. Whatever the outcome of the judicial review, I'm sure the council will deal with that when it happens. Now, you said multiple times you really want this ban to be upheld. You think that the council should have a zero tolerance policy. How confident are you that the strip club owner's case will be dismissed? I would not even consider trying to second guess what the judicial review would say. I hope that the ban is upheld. I hope that come next April, there are no sex clubs licensed in Edinburgh and that women who currently work there are able to find fulfilling careers elsewhere.

Okay, Susan, thank you for your thoughts. That was former Labour councillor and Scotsman columnist Susan Dalgety. I'd like to bring in Tess Herman now from the Union of Sex Workers. Good morning, Tess. Good morning. Hi, thanks for having me. So what is the Union of Sex Workers? Why is the Union of Sex Workers against this ban? So basically, I mean, we've seen strip club bans introduced in other parts of the UK, especially in England, where this law has been introduced about 10 years earlier.

So we've seen it in Chester and Exeter and Sheffield and Swansea. Basically, that doesn't mean that life adult entertainment just goes away. It just becomes more hidden, more hidden from policymakers, from support services, from unions. So it goes in towards like agencies. So it's private parties. A lot of that is less safe. But just because

we don't have any strip clubs because strippers if strippers don't have any clubs to work in anymore doesn't mean that they don't work anymore um so what we're concerned about in in edinburgh and what a lot of our members have told us is that if strip clubs will close in edinburgh that they have to either commute to other cities such as Glasgow for example or they will have to move they will have to move their families they will have to move themselves they will have to like work weekends away or something like that or they would have to go into other forms of sex work which either pay less or are just they or something that they might not be as comfortable with and it just just kind of makes them even more precarious, which, as you said earlier, like in a cost of living crisis is just an added stress if this ban

actually does go through. Are strip clubs misogynistic? I don't believe so. And I think it's importantly, I think this is a very dangerous argument to make because it ends up blaming strippers for violence against women. The fact is that there is absolutely no evidence that the presence of strip clubs causes or even exacerbates violence against women and girls. And most importantly, as a trade union organiser, as a representative of strippers, I'm focusing on the workers' rights of strippers. So it is clear that stripping is a form of work. It is backbreaking labour, actually actually and it is a job that you can't just legislate away so criminalizing the workplaces of strippers simply makes it impossible to call out

exploitative practices and challenge behavior that strippers did not actually consent to because while we do live in the patriarchy like our entire um every thought that we have right like every interaction that we have is shaped by the patriarchy and very very often usually we do not consent sorry to any any form of sexualization or objectification now women who have decided to work in strip clubs have decided to in this very setting consent to a certain degree of sexualization um and if that is pushed on the ground if that is pushed towards private parties towards agencies etc then we are not able as their representatives to challenge behavior that strippers did not consent to there are concerns from some that the people that strip um could then lead it could lead into into other forms of work, not other forms, because the two,

and I think it's important, isn't it, to make that distinction between stripping and sex work. But there are some that believe stripping is a gateway into sex work. Do you believe that? I think in some individual cases, strippers have then gone on to work in other forms of sex work, yes, but I don't think that it's necessarily bad to go into other forms of sex work. As United Sex Workers we do represent all sex workers including full-sex sex workers, including online sex workers etc. I think in this context specifically what is way more obvious is that removing workplaces where strippers can strip and make enough money from stripping, from nude dancing, and then taking their workplaces away is more likely to push them into other forms of sex work that they might not be comfortable with. We've had some messages come in about this and someone suggested how about instead of banning

legitimate employment Edinburgh City Council work with strip clubs to regulate them work with women not force sex work into an underground environment what more would you like Edinburgh City Council to do in this situation Tess? I would love Edinburgh City Council to work more with us as a union, with the dancers directly, even with club owners where necessary to introduce, there are certain things that can be introduced, like working conditions that can be introduced through licensing. There is some parts of working in strip clubs is incredibly precarious because of the setup of strip clubs, because of house fees, because strippers are misclassified, so like their employment status is misclassified, they're treated as independent contractors when actually

they are and should be considered workers. So like all of these things could be, or a lot of those things could be written into policy and a lot of these things could, we would be happy to speak to the council, to Edinburgh City Council and to all councils all over the UK about these things and how to introduce them, how to introduce a proper infrastructure for strippers, how to introduce minimum wage or the fact that strippers can never go home having made negative money, like having lost money. So, of course, we want to and we are open to speak to councils about how to introduce these things. And we are actually quite appalling that nobody has come up to us about this. Tess Herman, thank you for your thoughts. Also, a big thank you to Susan Dalgety for coming on the programme. Now, the case will be heard on December the 1st and 2nd and no doubt we'll be covering it here on Women's Hour.

Now, we did invite Edinburgh Council to take part in our discussion today. They decided to provide a statement instead. A spokesperson said the regulatory committee agreed to adopt the licensing system for sexual entertainment venues, SEVs, from the 1st of April, 2023. It approved the policy and condition of licence

for these venues and set the appropriate number of venues in the city at zero. It's important to note that SEVs can still apply for a license and committee would consider them against the agreed policy. As I say, this is something that Woman's Hour will be covering in the weeks and months to come. Now, you may know my next guest as the young Princess Anne in the Netflix series The Crown but actor Aaron Doherty is now playing a starring role on stage in The Crucible, a new production of Arthur Miller's modern classic has just opened at the National Theatre in London. It's based on the notorious Salem trials in Massachusetts in the United States in 1692, where young girls accused their elders of Satanism and sparked a witch hunt.

Erin plays teenager Abigail Williams and joins me now. Good morning. Morning. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. Great to see you. Smile on your face. Tell us about this role. What attracted you to it? I think, well, when i sat down and spoke to the director she was basically she was like when she studied it in school her teacher or something was like this girl is a sex craze nymph it or whatever he just described this character and she was like

i just think it's deeper than that and i i'd not studied it in school so i came to it completely fresh and i was like well yeah i want to be a part of kind of like putting a fresh spin or even just like more clarity, like more depth, richness to this woman that is kind of, well, it is always portrayed as the enemy in a sense. And actually there's a lot more to it. And I just wanted to be a part of kind of rejigging that story in people's minds. Brilliant. OK, let's give people a little taste of the play. This is a clip with you as Abigail Williams talking to John Proctor, a man you've had an affair with whilst working for him and his wife on their farm.

Once the affair comes out, Abigail is forced to leave, but suspects that John might still care for her. John, I'm waiting for you every night. I never give you hope to wait for me. I have something better than hope, I think. Abby, you'll put it out of mind. I'll not be coming for you more. You're surely sporting with me. You know me better. I know how you clutched my back behind your house.

And sweated like a stallion whenever I come near, or did I dream that? I saw your face when she put me out, and you loved me then, and you do now. Abby, that is a wild thing to say. A wild thing may say wild things, but not so wild, I think. I've seen you since you put me out.

I've seen you nights. I have hardly stepped off my farm this seven months. I have a sense for heat, John, and yours has drawn me to my window and I've seen you looking up, burning in your loneliness. Do you tell me you never looked up at my window? Well, that is an intense scene.

She sounds like an intense character, Abigail. What is she like? I love her. And I guess like, that's just like an actor's job. But I genuinely like, I fall in love with every part I play because it's kind of, it's my job to defend them in a sense. And I've never felt it more strongly than with this character.

Because so often whenever I was like, oh, I'm going to play Abigail in Crucible, everyone was like, oh, I hate her. I was like, what? Like, what is what is that? Yeah. Why is that? Why? Why do people take to her so negatively? I think because the story is very often told through the lens and it is. It's just written that way. It's written by Arthur Miller. it's told through the lens of John Proctor so you're coming at it from his point of view and I completely understand that of course there are things that Abigail does that are really questionable but at the same time is that not what theatre especially is like made for is to go yeah but look at it from this lens like just have a little think about the circumstances of what this young

woman has gone through and actually she's deeply confused and she has not this man is stood in front of her saying that this thing never happened and actually that's that's pretty questionable behavior as well like in the current climate of like kind of i don't know airing gas lighting like that's kind of it's it's very much i think it's kind of it's there't know, airing gaslighting. Like that's kind of, it's very much, I think it's kind of, there's two sides to every coin. And actually I was, and I still feel it so strongly. I'm so incredibly proud and determined to portray this character as someone who is not like quote unquote evil.

Yeah. And that relevance that you mentioned is probably one of the reasons why the play, I suppose, is still attracting audiences even today, even though it was written more than 60 years ago. And another of the themes within the play is mass hysteria. How much do you think audiences today will resonate with that concept of mass hysteria resonate with people that mob mentality i think like we're very much in the like thick of exactly that and that's where i think this play is so like you're saying it's so exciting to be putting it on the olivier which is like i think rufus norris calls it it's like the town square like of london you just you put on the stories that need to be told and we need we

just need to discuss these topics right now and actually with everything that's going on in terms of like cancel culture like no one wants to step a foot out of line everyone is so fearful of admitting that they're wrong or they've said something that they want to take back like that we just kind of dig dig dig even harder into these beliefs that we think we need to have. But actually, this play should highlight that without flexibility in our beliefs, like we break and we implode. And that's even more scary than just saying, actually, I think I think I said something wrong there. It's deep, isn't it? Did you learn a lot about yourself, about life doing this play?

Yeah, I think I do. And most people do in every every job they like have as an actor like that's the part of why i love it is it forces you to look at issues and subjects and people that you may never have opened yourself up to ever in your life like if you just stayed in your little bubble and actually yeah like talking about mass hysteria and yeah just I like gaslighting every every topic that comes into this play has just kind of opened my eyes even more and like I say has made me even more proud to be a part of putting it on and one of the issues in the play is how difficult it can be to go against the herd go against the mob um and I suppose societal expectations can you relate to that in your own life?

Yeah, I think as an actor, there's a lot of like your life kind of comes under scrutiny quite a lot of the time. People feel like they want to know all these things about you. And actually, I don't know about a lot of people, but I'm a very introverted, kind of shy human being who,

anytime someone asks particularly particularly personal questions I'm always a bit like well I don't I don't know but like there's something that comes over you and you're like oh I feel like I just have to give you all this stuff because it's kind of the mentality of being an actor you're supposed to share all these things actually only now I suppose maybe after turning 30 I'm like oh maybe I maybe I could just go I'm not going to tell you like what I do on my Sundays off and stuff like that like it I think there's some there's something wrapped up in that kind of package of being an actor where you're supposed to share everything and I'm only now just kind of going oh it's okay to kind of turn up and talk

about the work that really excites me like I don't need to tell you about my dinner I won't be asking you about your dinner but have you become more open have you have you become more open then as you as you've got older and as you've become more established as an actor I don't know I think there's something strange that happens like especially as a as a young woman in this industry I think I felt a lot of the kind of the start of my career just going with the flow of it all and like trying to just work as much as I could and now I feel lucky enough to be able to have a bit more control over what my future may hold but it's still very yeah it's very much kind of like you take what you can get.

And that's kind of part of the joy of being an actor is you don't know what's around the corner. And that's what I love about it. But, yeah, I feel like I'm all of a sudden starting to go, starting to question things and put in what I feel is of value rather than just throwing everything at it because I'm trying to be a good person. Yeah. Well, I tell tell you getting to know yourself is a lifelong journey isn't it? Now many people will of course know you from playing a young Princess Anne in the third and fourth seasons I think it was of The Crown. You got so many good reviews from that playing that role. How much did you enjoy that? I honestly I loved it and it was again it was

something where I didn't know anything about Princess Anne and I feel like that's a real asset coming into a project is you you have no preconceptions and actually I kind of the more I researched about her I was like this woman's amazing like and I'm not a royalist in particular but just the bare bones of of what she stands for and what she did like she was she literally like denied a kidnapping at one point I just think these things that this woman did I was like well yeah I want to I want to be a part of like putting her in people's minds and actually that was part of like the joy of of being a part of the show was going oh but look at this, look at all these amazing things she did.

And everyone was like, oh yeah, she's pretty cool. Like it was really, I'm really grateful to have been a part of that. Did she ever see your performance? Do you know? Do you know if she... I don't know. She saw what you did?

She commented on how long it took. I said how long it took for me to get my hair done. And she commented on it being like, well, mine doesn't take that long. And again, I was like, well, of course she would say that. But honestly, I sat in the chair for two hours sometimes because it was like 70s, big, massive dues. And I was the last last out at the end of the night, just brushing out the backcombing. And from the success of that role and obviously now leading into The Crucible,

you have a choice in the roles that you that you want to be a part of. What comes into your decision making process? I think I'm just I'm a huge lover of humanity and people and psychology. And so really what guides it is kind of all right, well, what's behind this human being? Like, I'm not a huge action type of a person like I'm more about like I say psychology and what's really driving the storyline here like Kramer versus Kramer is my favorite film of all time because it's just a story about a man and his kid and his wife like going through a divorce and there's something really beautiful about the simplicity of that

and I think like I say as time goes on and I feel like I have more control I'm kind of trying to steer it in that direction because I just I just love people and I love the nuances about life and why we make these decisions. Life could have been so different for you because you could have been a footballer is that right? Yeah so I grew up on weekends going to and it all happened on a Sunday and bless my dad he drove me everywhere so he would like drive me to Brighton go play a football match Sunday morning and then he'd drive me to do drama club so there came a point when he was like Erin you need to make your mind up and choose one so yeah but there was a legitimate time in my life when I was going to be a football player wow imagine I know and it's so like well to fair, I'm so proud of our football team at the minute because I'm like, yes.

Honestly, to see them on screen and like to just be getting the recognition that they deserve, because there's so much work that it takes going into being a successful female football player. And now it's being recognised. I'm just so chuffed for them. Yeah. England women doing incredible things at the moment, qualifying for the World Cup, as have the Republic of Ireland women's team, qualified for their first World Cup as well. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you, Erin.

Thank you so much. Erin Doherty is playing Abigail Williams in The Crucible at the National Theatre in London until Saturday the 5th of November. Now on to another star of stage and screen. You'll have heard in the news that Dame Angela Lansbury, who won international acclaim as the star of the US TV crime series Murder, She Wrote, has died at the age of 96. The three-time Oscar nominee had a career spanning eight decades

across film, theatre and TV. She was born in London in 1925. When she moved to New York, she was discovered by a film executive who gave her her first role as a maid in the 1944 film Gaslight. In 1973, Woman's Hour presenter Sue McGregor caught up with Dame Angela when she was performing in the stage show Gypsy. Here she talks about the beginning of her career in Hollywood. I was at MGM for almost seven years and lived the life of the Hollywood starlet. But, however, during that period, I also got to play some wonderfully interesting parts.

In fact, I look upon my time at MGM as rather like being with a good repertory company. Why was it, do you think, that you always played the older woman? I think I had a sort of innate maturity from a very tender age. I know I did, because when I was 17, people thought I was sort of 23 or 24. And when I did Gaslight, I was actually 17, 18. And everybody was sort of taken aback. They weren't appalled. I'm appalled at how mature I was at that age. I wasn't really. I just gave the illusion of being. I had a rather mature face,

I suppose. I finally grew into it. Yes, Gaslight, you received an Oscar nomination for, you played the girl who Charles Boyer wanted but Ingrid Bergman fell for her. That must have been perhaps one of the films you're most proud of having made? Yes, I think as a sort of premiere performance, I'm very proud of it, because I don't know how the heck I did it. I really don't. Now, if I'd known then what I know now,

I never would have had the face to go out and play the part the way I did. You've almost done everything in films, haven't you? You've been in every kind of film, even a Western. Yes, but that's not difficult after all. A very large percentage of the output of American movies in the days when I was making pictures were Westerns, if you stop and think about it.

So you were bound to end up in one sooner or later. That follows. No way and think about it. So you were bound to end up in one sooner or later. That follows. No way could you avoid it. Why did you wait until comparatively late, the mid-50s, to appear on the stage in Hotel Paradiso? It just seemed to be the sequence of my career, that I should have to spend those early years making movies and not really having the

proper opportunity to make an initial appearance on stage. Actually, it was through an English director that I finally did make my stage debut in Hotel Paradiso with Peter Glenville. And he really persuaded me. He said, I think you've done your stint in pictures and I think now you should spread your wings and try going back to the theatre because you trained for it when you were a youngster, which I did, of course, in London, and let's see what you can do.

So I went and auditioned for him and he was enormously helpful and was, I think, responsible for my debut being fairly auspicious. It was a great success. And then the greatest success you've had up until now was of course Mame in 1966. How did you feel though, an English actress,

playing the all-American woman in this? Do Americans think of you as American now? Yes, they do. Some of them do. Some of them still think of me as an English actress, just as London audiences tend to think of me as an American actress. I seem, I guess I come somewhere right in the middle, mid-Atlantic, you see. However, the point is that I did play an American woman in MAME and it came as second nature to me. I'd lived in America for years, there was no difficulties attached to that. It was a

lovely part, it was probably the loveliest part I'd ever played on stage and it happened to be a musical. It happened to be a musical. Of course now, with your second musical musical you've almost got the showbiz label around you and people think of you as as in show business which I think is a label that you don't terribly like. No because somehow it it sounds as if one isn't really a serious performer or a serious actress necessarily. I say one that's wrong to say one isn't a serious performer and to be labeled a show business artist because there are dozens and dozens and dozens of very seriously enormously successful showbiz personality

performers. However, I don't feel that I've come into that category quite because I'm not a stand-up comic, I'm not a stand-up singer, I'm not a stand-up comic I'm not a stand-up singer I'm not a just an entertainer although I always wanted to be an entertainer I think it's a marvelous thing to be and I don't really know how to do that I know how to act it but I don't know how to just come out on stage and perform as an entertainer and I'm in awe of people who do and those are the real showbiz people and I'm absolutely at their feet. Is one way that you can get away from all this to live in the quiet in Ireland, where I gather it's your home rather than America, Ireland?

Yes, it is. My home is in Ireland, that's absolutely correct, and it's very close to London, it's only three hours door to door, and I'm only six hours from New York. Isn't it incredible that I can live there in the green and midst of all those glorious fields and quiet and yet still be in touch by telephone with any place that I might want to talk to about work or anything else. That was the late Dame Angela Lansbury talking to Woman's Hour back in 1973 following her death aged 96. Now we always like to have input from our audience here on Woman's Hour back in 1973, following her death, aged 96. Now, we always like to have

input from our audience here on Woman's Hour. So when one listener got in touch about emptiness syndrome, we wanted to look into it further. Writer Natalie Paddock told us about the feeling of loss she experienced when her children left home and joins me now. Also, author Celia Dodd, who wrote a book about the emptiness, subtitled Your Changing Family, Your New Direction. Good morning. Good morning. Okay, Natalie, first, you got in touch with us here on Woman's Hour. You shared your blog that you'd written about your children leaving home for the very first time. Just tell us about that experience. That was our eldest daughter that was about

seven years ago and she was going to university to study in English literature in London and it's just such an enormous thing to sort of finally turn your back and walk away from that child that you've been cherishing and looking after for so long and it it was really overpowering I found it extremely difficult to do but then I was going back to my other two sons our other two sons and so I still had a job I still had somebody in the house I still had something to do and Tallulah our daughter was coming backwards and forwards but every time I had to say goodbye to her at the front door the the emotion was enormous and then my our youngest son has just gone off to the army and he's off for uh four months in Kenya and my middle son Ruben he um left a week ago and

I just couldn't do it I just could not say goodbye at the front door again because suddenly they were all gone and it's just me. What's my job? What's my purpose? I mean, who really am I? I mean, you just said getting to know yourself is a lifelong journey. Well, maybe that's me. I'm just going to have to try and do that. And it was so enormous that I went to I went to the supermarket and had to suddenly get a small trolley everything in my life changed like that so quickly and it's possibly better for me because of course I I'm in a relationship with my husband so you know I've got somebody to bounce some of these fillings you know know, off. But it's such a shock.

I open my fridge and nobody's rifled through it. Everything's still there. Do you know what I mean? I cooked a meal two days ago and all of the bits are still there from that meal. Nobody's got a pizza at night and left me with all the washing up. I'm kind of not really knowing what to do. Nobody's waking me up at night because they've stolen, you know, a glass or two of wine or something like that. It's really strange and the house echoes without them. So that's really why I wrote about it, because it's not that often talked about.

Yeah, it's not spoken about probably nearly enough, which is why it's so great that you got in touch. Celia, how common is this? You've written the book and you spoke to lots of people. I mean, is this quite a common thing? Suddenly they've gone and you have to adjust to being a mother or father in a very different kind of way. You're still a mom or a dad. Your identity changes. You have to deal with a massive shift in everything in your life from like daily routines, you know, not having to pick them up late at night, not having the mess to really a big question. Who am I now? You know, what is my purpose?

And like all big changes in life, you know, it's positive as well as negative, very uncomfortable when you're going through it. Yeah, and it's got a lot of our listeners talking and lots of people have got in touch. We'll come to a few of the messages in just a moment, but first we've got this voice note that's been sent in from our listener Jim. Hello Woman's Hour we have two daughters one is seven years older than the other when the eldest one left of course we had the youngest one here and when she left, I must confess that I had three months of having to transition. And what helped me through?

Well, the fact that we raise our children to flee the nest and we raise them to be adults who can survive in society and make their own way. So I guess I felt fulfilled that we had achieved that, my wife and I, and they were on their path. But of course, they're obviously in touch constantly and staying at home periodically. So it's lovely, refreshing.

That's lovely. So he's trying to put a positive spin on it, obviously still feeling those feelings of being a bit lost and feeling quite emotional that the children have left. But Celia, there's a way to reframe this, isn't there, perhaps, and see it as a new beginning? Definitely. I think you have to see, you can feel a bit left behind that, you know, they're the ones going off. But I think you have to see it as you're going off as well. You know, you're going off in a new direction and really try and shift the focus back onto you. Because for years, your whole life has revolved around the children. You know, all the things you like doing, you know, from when they're young, going to the park, all those things actually you don't really like doing, but you have to do because of them.

Now you can really discover yourself again. And I think a lot of people, a lot of women particularly, feel a bit buried under motherhood. And they can rediscover themselves when the children have left home and obviously they've still got the connection with them but but you're you know you can you can explore yourself because you've got more emotional space as well as physical space yeah um one listener has got in touch to say that empty nest syndrome kicked in for them early in summer 2021 when my only child was off on holiday with friends between A-levels and going to Edinburgh at uni. So her process was to write a song about her daughter and recently released it on Spotify. It's called Heart-Shaped Face. Natalie, for you, how have you adapted? Were there coping mechanisms

that you can give to others that you can advise for others to use as well well if you if you put wine aside um I like to cook and so um on the same day as uh my son left uh our daughter rang and said oh she was going to come back with a load of friends in a couple of weeks time so that's kind of giving me a purpose I'm going to cook for that I know know that's not completely independent, as Celia says, but it's kind of giving me a purpose going forward. And, you know, as I say, it's such, I've got to discover who I am again. So I'm not short of things to do, but I'm just trying to sort of re-evaluate. That's kind of the best way I can do it and I like to write hence I wrote this blog which originally was extremely negative and sad and then I looked at it and said oh get a grip Natalie you know put some humor into it you know and they would all all my children would be going exactly that get a grip mummy and that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah we've had some more messages come in and someone has said when my youngest daughter left university, I joined a choir. Best thing I've ever done. Social teamwork. Good for the brain. As I never learned to read music.

It really helped me with the feelings of loneliness and gave me something to do. Someone else has said, I learned bell ringing as one of my anti-emptiness syndrome strategies. It kept my brain busy. Great social life. lots of new friends and part of the local community. What would you say people should use as coping mechanisms, Celia, to try and get themselves through this period? Well, I think that's, you know, the social side of it is really helpful. Finding something that really interests you, identifying the time when you miss your kids most. I mean, for some people, that's like the weekend. Sometimes it's four o'clock when the key used to go in the door when they came home from school. And find something completely different to do that takes you outside

your life. I mean, the great advantage is that you can be much more single-minded now. A lot of mothers in particular, you know, they don't feel guilty about having to be in two places at once anymore. So they can really focus on on what they want to do. And I think it's really useful to stand back a little bit, take stock and think, well, what do I really like? And, you know, that I can get back to me now, but also get out of the house. There have been some interesting coping mechanisms used by certain celebrities. I don't know if you heard about Chef Gordon Ramsay saying that when his son left for university, he wore his son's underpants. Well, I think we all, it's a very physical experience when your child leaves home.

And you, a lot of parents sniff their children's clothes, I'm afraid. You know, I mean, it's just natural. That's different to putting on pants. But you know, whatever, whatever, whatever makes you feel better, basically. And so, I mean, there are by the contrast, some parents can't bear to go anywhere near their children's bedroom. But I think this what you really miss is this sort of physical side. So I think there's an element that it's okay to sort of not be necessarily indulgent, but to sort of physical side so I think there's an element that it's okay to sort of not be necessarily indulgent but to sort of face up to how you feel to acknowledge it you know that's Gordon Ramsay saying yeah this is really bad and then you move on so you know you

really I think it's important to acknowledge that it's a massive deal and you've done a great job in launching your child um yeah so yeah thank you uh author celia dodd there and to writer as well natalie paddock and we've had so many um uh so many people getting in touch about this very subject lots of you can relate to the subject matter of emptiness syndrome uh one person has said well they filled the house with foster children once their children had left. Another said that they filled the house with Ukrainian refugees. So there is another option as well. Thank you to everyone who got in touch. Now, we often talk about girls here on Woman's Hour, how we raise them, keeping them safe, their mental and physical health, but we don't often talk to them. For an occasional series called Girls World,

Enna Miller went to talk to girls at their schools, not necessarily about the big issues, but what makes them laugh, what they care about. The chat at the school gates, for example. Ruby, Nima and Azealia are 14 and go to school in Stroud. When you all come to school and you meet your friends at school, what are the things that you instantly talk about? The top things that you instantly go,

and then you start talking. Who wants to start? Drama going on in our lives. That's something to talk about. And what's that? Boys, I guess. And just drama about other girls in schools. We just, well, I don't want to say complain,

but, like, we just, whatever's kind of annoyed us on the walk to school. And what is that? What annoys you? People, like... I don't want to say our parents, cos they'll listen to it. You've said it now, so... OK, our parents because they'll listen to it. You've said it now, so... Okay, our parents. Like walking into our rooms and just sitting on the bed and not doing anything

for like ten minutes. My mum, she does that. She just comes into my room and just stares at my mirror. She has her own mirror, the exact same closet, but she just uses mine for some reason. I don't know why. Exactly. My mum, she'll walk into my bedroom especially on the weekend open the blinds and just sit on my bed but listen to like instagram

reels on like highest volume and just sit on my bed and i'll be like what are you doing when i first met my friends we like complaining it's normally our siblings or getting up in the mornings. Yeah. And do you share the same things that Ruby and Azealia have said about their parents? Is there anything that your parents do? I think just what my mum does, especially when she gets a call from one of her best friends, she just yells around the house whilst I'm trying to do homework and revise for a test.

And it's really annoying. I watch TV shows with my mum. at the moment we're watching Glee but there's six seasons all with like 20 episodes and she takes her time because I'll be like do you want to watch an episode of Glee and she'll be like hold on just got to do the ironing three hours later I'm like do you still want to watch Glee and she's just like well I've got to go to bed now but she's doing your ironing well yeah but I can I can do it like it's not like I can't would you yeah I did it yesterday because I had a shirt that I wanted to wear okay can't you just watch one episode with me? It just irritates me. So when you talk about TV,

are there any other things that take up your life with regards to what you watch? Oh, you're getting excited, Ruby. Is this Ruby you want to answer? A book series, and it's just recently been made into a TV show called Heartstopper. Nima's clapping.

Oh, there we go. It was only four hours worth of TV and I've already seen it like five times and I just want to watch it again. It's so good. It's really good, but there's not enough episodes. Like, I've had to binge watch it like 50 times. Me and my mum watch shows together every other Saturday,

probably, when I'm at her house. Me, my mum and my stepdad watch a movie if we can agree on one. It's just good because we don't get to spend much time together because my stepdad works and I'm at school and I go to my dad's so it's all over the place really. They like to show me old films that they liked when they were my age and it's just good. What are those old films that they liked when they were my age. And it's just good. What are those old films? My mum showed me my now favourite film, Dead Poets Society, and the cinematography. And it's really good as well.

What a brilliant conversation that was. That was part of our occasional series called Girls World. Now, new recommendations have been introduced to make Brazilian butt lifts, or BBLs as they're known, safer in the UK. That's where fat, usually from the stomach or the back, is injected into the butt cheeks to change their shape and size. Back in 2018, after the death of Leah Cambridge, who had flown to Turkey to have the surgery,

the British Association of Aesthetic Plastic Surgeons, or BAPS, advised their members not to perform this type of procedure. But this week, they've released new recommendations they hope will make the procedure safer. Joining me now are the president of BAPS, Mark Pacifico, and director Louise Coleman, who made the documentary on BBLs. It's called The Bottom Line. It was for ITV. Good morning to you both. Morning. Mark, I'll start with you first. For people who don't know, what exactly is a Brazilian butt lift? What's happening? It's funny. It's not actually a lift. It's an enlargement of the buttocks. And it's done

by using liposuction techniques to take fat from other areas of the body, typically, as you said, the lower back and the abdomen, and using particular techniques injected into the fat in the buttocks. Okay, so what are these new recommendations that you're releasing and why now? Well, what we said in 2018, we were very clear that with not only Leo Cambridge's death, but the data at the time suggested there was a death rate of one in 3,000, which is, of course, incredibly high. And we advised our members that until further data was obtained, until new techniques and technology could make this technique safer, we suggested this technique shouldn't be done or this procedure shouldn't be done. And what's changed in many things? Number one is technology. We can actually use ultrasound technology during surgery to make sure that the tip of the cannula,

the instrument that's used to inject the fat, is in a very safe zone because all the deaths, literally all the deaths from BBL surgery were when the cannula was too deep and the fat was injected deeply into the buttock muscle and damaged the veins. And secondly, actually on further analysis and new data about the death rate, that one in 3,000 statistic wasn't quite right. And the estimation now is about one in 15,000, which makes it comparable with some other plastic surgery procedures. And how much does this cost? Well, I don't do the procedure myself. I don't know how much it costs and it will depend on where you go. But normally body contouring procedures will be from around the six to ten thousand pound mark. The research seems to suggest that it's more costly in the UK, which is why so many women are going abroad.

So despite it being safer perhaps to do it here in the UK, aren't women still just going to fly elsewhere to get it done? I think you're absolutely right. and this is a real worry and problem and you've got to question why it's cheaper abroad. One of the challenges is the cost of the high regulation we have here and the potential lack of regulation and due diligence that can be done where people are going abroad to have it done. So the real concern is not only the quality and the variable quality of where it may be done abroad, but also the challenges with managing someone after surgery in a different country.

And what if they have complications and problems? And I, as with most of my colleagues in BARPS, have seen plenty of patients who've been abroad for surgery and come back with all sorts of complications that have to be managed over here. So is there anything that BARPS can do to put in place to protect women from getting this surgery, particularly vulnerable women as well? Oh, absolutely. There are measures that we advise and all our members undertake, whether it's through a psychological screening as part of our consultation process through to ensuring that our members are absolutely trained with the latest techniques. And the advice I'd have to anyone considering this particular surgery is to really

make sure that the surgeon is doing it using real-time ultrasound, because that's the only way that the surgeon during surgery can be sure that the cannula is not going into the dangerous zone. Mark, thank you. That was President of BARP's Mark Pacifico. I'd like to bring you in, Louise. Good morning, because you made this documentary about BBLs. You spoke to so many different women. What was the reasons that they were deciding to get this done, even though the risks have been quite well documented?

I mean, throughout the documentary, we kind of follow two women, one in particular that, you know, she talks about wanting a BBL. And she talks about how she thinks that will enhance her social mobility online. And she thinks that it will make her an influencer and it will increase her, I guess, social capital. And that's kind of something that comes up quite a lot for a documentary. I actually ended up speaking to a influencer and TikTok star Nayleen Ashley and she's American and she came up for the world star hip-hop era and she talks about getting her BBL reversed and when I asked her why she thought

she sort of says you know when I was you know doing lots of fashion you know I actually can't say the clothing brand but lots of you know really high campaign um brand deals fashion wise this look was fantastic and you know it I was really selling the clothes but when I got my BBL reverse and I became slimmer actually all my brand deals started going and it's just it there's lots of different reasons I think as to why um some of the young women that I want BBL that want BBL sorry but I think one of the main reasons is there's definitely, it can't be ignored that having that particular look

that has been super marketed online, some call it, you know, the Kardashian effect. It's been heavily influenced by social media. It's a real thing. Social media. Yeah, it's a real thing. And I kind of say at the start of the documentary that actually when I was coming up,

I definitely felt like it was about kind of like having a thigh gap it was kind of like the boyish look it was the you know Naomi Campbell kind of like Claudia Schiffer yeah the slim skinny supermodel like you remember you know Britain's Next Top Model that like that whole thing um and then actually since then it's become a lot more you know curvaceous um and I just think that there seems to be this continuous pursuit perfection sorry where women and their bodies are commodified and capitalized on i guess because you know when when do you stop there's there's been a massive thing with you know b jobs being reversed now we're seeing bbl be reversed we're seeing kandashi and getting slimmer

blonder and seeing you know much more europe looking. And that's obviously going to have an effect on, you know, a lot of young women and how they kind of want to look. And it's, yeah, we go into the documentary, there's lots of there's lots of controversial things in there, even in terms of, you know, culture appropriation and how actually this was an aesthetic that, you know, particularly black women having, you know, a larger but it has been something that has been naturally had by that community, by our community. And that wasn't really celebrated. It was actually kind of sexualized, not in a very nice way. Well, it was ridiculed, wasn't it? And ridiculed, yeah. Which really historically, which we talk about with Sarah Bartman and her horrible experience with what happened. So, yeah, it's quite problematic to say that you know you

want a big bum to maybe attract your type um and that's some of the conversations that we we try to have in the documentary and obviously I'm a black woman I'm in my 20s and I definitely wanted to kind of like put a message out um definitely not judging anyone for having a surgery but if you are going to do it you know make sure that you are safe and do you think people know the risks what did you get that sense when you spoke to the people in the documentary um i think i definitely you know one of the ladies that i speak to she almost you know says that it kind of is exciting to her um you know she's had more than one surgery um and it's not something that she's shy of going under the knife um and I think, you know, there's a scene where we talk to an influencer who alleges that her procedure was botched.

And we get her to meet a young girl who actually wants to become an influencer. And she thinks, you know, having the surgery will help. And they have a real conversation where, you know, they sort of, you know, Renee, who's the influencer involved, candidly sort of explained to xaviola why do you actually want to be bill do you actually think that you know altering your physical shape will actually make you more applicable to these social media brands um i think they know the risks but i think it feels like actually it won't happen to me um one in three thousand one in fifteen thousand now does seem like it won't it might not happen

to you so why not take the risk, especially if you are super young? Yeah, well, people definitely need to know what they're getting themselves in for. Louise Coleman, thank you. Your documentary, The Bottom Line, is available right now on ITV Hub. Woman's Hour is back tomorrow. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. are you? Mistrust. She-Hulk. Who is calling for more tax rises. It's everything you need to know. Like you've never heard it before. Thousands of lesbians are striking today in a dispute over pay. The three-day walkout could delay the processing of up to 60,000 gay women. The biggest story. With a twist. Surge in food prices. Coming up. Washing up liquid. Three to five thousand pounds. A packet of custard creams. But where did you get them?

They were in a box in my mother-in-law's cupboard. Sort of three to four hundred pounds, something like that. Buy your own house. Crack team. Sound wizards. You're a wizard. Listen now, BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.