Woman's Hour - Esther Rutter on the knitted bikini, Sally Challen and composer Suzanne Ciani

Episode Date: September 28, 2019

Esther Rutter on the secret feminist history of knitting.Sally Challen was jailed for 22 years for killing her husband Richard in 2011. She was released earlier this year after a change in the law on coercive control. She talks to Jane about her marriage, her sentence and what it’s like to be a free woman.Phoebe Waller-Bridge’s Fleabag won three separate awards at this years Emmy’s - what's behind her success? Jennie Joseph, a UK trained midwife, tells us about her work in the US reducing maternal and perinatal mortality among black women and other women of colour. Plus could you continue to love your son if he was accused of violent sexual crimes? And the five time Grammy award nominated composer and electronic music artist Suzanne Ciani on her career spanning 40 years.Presenter Jane Garvey Producer Rabeka Nurmahomed Editor Beverley PurcellGuest; Emma Bullimore Guest; Hetta Howes Guest; Tracy-Ann Oberman Guest; Anupama Chandrasekhar Guest; Sally Challen Guest; Esther Rutter Guest; Jennie Joseph Guest; Suzanne Ciani

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, good afternoon and welcome to the weekend edition of Woman's Hour. This week you can hear from Sally Challen who was jailed for the murder of her husband and had her sentence reduced only after the introduction of coercive control as a crime. She talks about her marriage, her sentence and how it now feels to be free. After her Emmys wins this week, what next for the British megastar Phoebe Waller-Bridge? And why do so many black women suffer when it comes to their maternal health? A woman of colour, perhaps an African descent woman, may have different treatment simply because

of her colour. One of the things we know across both continents is that black women especially are not listened to, not believed. People are dying for being ignored. Some important stuff from Jenny Joseph on Weekend Woman's Hour this week. And you can also hear from the composer and electronic music artist Suzanne Chiani. She'll tell us about her 40-year career. Oh, and knitted swimwear. Everything you didn't know you needed to know.

So I made a bikini from yarn spun in the borders and I tested it in Northumberland and I'm very, very relieved to say that it stayed put. It was a bit like a wetsuit in that it gradually kind of took on water but that actually kept me very warm because wool can absorb up to 30% of its own weight in water before it stops losing any of its insulating capacity. There we are the voice of the writer Esther Rutter more from her later in the programme. In 2011 Sally Challen was jailed for 22 years for

the murder of her husband Richard. She'd spent 31 years living in an abusive marriage. Her sentence was later reduced to 18 years, but in June of this year she was released. The introduction of coercive control as a crime meant that her sentence had been reduced to manslaughter on appeal, and she was a free woman. She told me about when she first met Richard. I met him first through a friend and then I worked in the local news agent on a Saturday and I met him there and he came over for coffee and my mother recognised him immediately as a salesman who had sold her a car and she said he had the gift of the gab and I fell immediately in love with him. I was besotted by him. He was sophisticated, he was charming, charismatic and exciting.

We used to go up to the King's Road for coffee. He'd take me to wonderful restaurants and it was just like a fairy tale thing that was happening to me. Your father had died when you were very little. Yes. So your mother was presumably very protective of you. How did she react to this relationship? She wasn't happy at all and neither of my brothers. I've subsequently found out that when I'd finished school and went to a finishing school in Belgium and to live with my eldest brother, one of my brothers who lived there with his wife.

I was found out recently that that was to try and get me away from Richard, to try and break the relationship. But it didn't happen. We kept in touch while I was away. And as soon as I came back, we embarked on our relationship as before. And how would you categorise it? Were you very, very gullible? And do you believe that he knew you to be someone who would be an ideal victim for him? I think so. I was very compliant. I was always trying to please him because I had this awful feeling that if I didn't do as he said when he said it, and how he wanted it, that he'd leave me. And I think he therefore found very early on that I was weak and that he could mould me into what he wanted me to be.

Apart from his control of you and his, to put it mildly, lack of enthusiasm for you having other friends and other relationships, was he behaving in any other more difficult ways at that point? Yes, I know that he cheated on me several times with people when we were going out together before we were married. I remember confronting him once about a phone call when I was in his flat and he turned around and said, don't make me choose because I'll choose her.

And I remember being hysterical and him dragging me down the stairs and throwing me out of the flat. And I then took an overdose and ended up in hospital. But I still wanted to be with him. Was he faithful to you at any time during the marriage, as far as you know? I don't think so, looking back. I think there were were probably signs I never knew what he was doing he'd come home say I need my supper now why isn't it on the table when I'd been picking up both boys from school going over to my mother's taking her her dinner then coming back and trying to go to the supermarket and I think that a lot of the time he'd say, I've got to go back and show someone a car, but I don't think he did.

And it's only subsequently through a friend of his have I realised that he'd been seeing prostitutes for years and years. There was also some hideous sexual violence as well, wasn't there? There was also some hideous sexual violence as well, wasn't there? There was. We'd gone to stay with friends in America in 98 and we were there around the time of David's birthday. We'd all been out in the evening. During the day we'd been shopping and he was buying himself lots of clothes, as he always did.

I didn't buy anything. And he was trying on the clothes and while he was trying on clothes, as he always did. I didn't buy anything. And he was trying on the clothes, and while he was trying on clothes, this friend grabbed me and kissed me, and Richard walked round the corner. Nothing was said. He just marched me into the bedroom, and he raped me.

Was that an isolated incident? That was the first. That was the first time. But there were other incidences during our marriage. Why in the end did you split up bearing in mind everything you've told us? From 2004 I was questioning a lot about what he was doing and when I questioned him he would say I was mad, I'm not doing anything, you know, you're making it up, etc. I found tickets to the London Eye in his coat pocket and he said I'd put them there and I thought

well I didn't put them there, you know, I must be going mad. And then I was monitoring his phone calls and I googled this number and it came up with a brothel in Surbiton and I thought no he wouldn't he couldn't and I went there a couple of times and one time I saw him walking across the car park in the November even though I knew it was him I questioned myself as to whether it really was him and I waited while he went in and I confronted him after an hour when he came out. He looked shocked and ran off. And he got home before me. And when I came in saying, what was he doing at a brothel and how could he?

He said, you're mad. I just went to sell someone a car. I didn't know it was a brothel. So he denied it and he wouldn't admit it. My boys, a few days later, confronted him and he finally admitted it. But I think that he glossed over how many times he'd been there and I think he still continued to do so. He was given the cold shoulder in the house. I think the boys felt that I should have left him then. And he turned round and said, you know,

unless everyone treats me normally etc I'm leaving and I begged him to stay that was in 2006. Why did you beg him to stay? Because I couldn't see a life without him because I still loved him. Some people Sally say plenty of people listening will have done this people stay together for the sake of the children we hear that a lot yeah and often it is possibly arguably the right thing to do by then your children were a little older weren't they? together for the sake of the children. We hear that a lot. And often it is possibly, arguably, the right thing to do. By then, your children were a little older, weren't they? They were. So you were staying for yourself? I was staying also for the children so as not to break up the family. In hindsight, I should have taken them and gone because I think it was not a normal family experience that they were getting. And I think it's affected each of them in different ways.

I should have left. I did leave in the end. And when I told Richard I wanted a divorce, you know, he didn't seem to be what you would expect. Please don't leave me. I beg you, none of that. I bought a house locally and I was euphoric. I thought this is going to be a new life for me and, you know, I'll be happy. But I quickly found that I couldn't cope on my own. I'd never lived on my own in my life. And, you know, I was 55 then. And I asked Richard if I could come back. Did you think about that for long?

Was it simply a growing feeling that you could not live without this man? Yes, no, it was a growing feeling. I couldn't cope, I couldn't live without him. I loved him. But he had made you that way, hadn't he? He had, but when you're in that sort of situation you don't realise it and over a period of time Richard agreed that he would take me back on certain conditions. He drew up a post-nuptial agreement which said I could have £200,000. I had to stop smoking. I had to not to talk to other people while we were out. We had

to buy things for the home together. So if anything, that the rules were getting stricter. Yes, they were. And it was at this point that you killed him as you were attempting a reconciliation. Yes, it was. He'd joined a dating agency. So he wasn't serious about the reconciliation? I don't think deep down he was. I think deep down I really didn't want to believe that was the truth. Otherwise, why would he say he wanted me to come back? We had what he would have classed as a probationary period.

I was allowed to see him once a week for three months and then if I'd changed, I could come back. The whole thing sounds... I know, you know that I know that that sounds ridiculous. I know, I know. And I didn't tell the boys. There was someone who said, don't go back to him, he'll make your life a misery,

who was a good friend of his. But I didn't want to listen, I didn't want to believe. I didn't want to believe he could do that to me. For the benefit of listeners who will be sympathetic, but you know this Sally, conflicted as well. You are someone who killed your husband, you acknowledge that, but you are also a victim. But what comes first? What comes first in your mind? I still feel I'm a victim second. I still feel that I know what I did was wrong and I'm very sorry for that.

I have paid a price and I thought I would die in prison. I didn't care. During the course of nine years, could you pick a moment that was you at your lowest ebb? It's a long, long period of time there were several several moments i think that i used to have certain times i had manic episodes not that i realized myself i was like that it was other people would recognize it i can remember speaking to a senior officer and saying to her please don't let me drop again please don't let me drop i would make an effort for when my family came to see me so they didn't outwardly see how i was feeling people say you've never thought of killing yourself have you because if you have obviously i have to report that. And obviously you answer, of course I haven't, but yes, I did. Because I didn't see any way out. People say you become conditioned, you know, to living in prison. I don't think that that happened to me. be able to survive physically and mentally until my sentence had ended as if I would be alive

anyway then I think without the therapy that I had both in HMP Bronzefield for several years and for some time in SEND I don't think I would be here today. People believed in me. Even if you didn't believe in yourself. Exactly. You are now free, I use the term loosely, because I wonder quite how free you actually feel. I don't dwell on the past. I try to look to the future. There were so many people who, when they heard that I'd won my appeal,

congratulating me and telling me how I'm helping them as well because it'll open the doors for them to be able to get an appeal. The future, I don't know at the moment. I'm still living with my eldest son and his partner and I've just become a grandmother. Which gives you hope for the future. It gives me hope for the future and it's a new chapter in my life. Well, that is fantastic. You continue to say that you love Richard. I know. And you do, don't you? I do love him but looking at it I think I love the person who I wanted him to be the person that he could occasionally be I don't like to think that it was

all a front on his part I hope that he did love me not as much think, as I loved him, but perhaps as much as he was capable of. I don't know. I find that hard to stomach, but life without him is still difficult. And it's difficult for your sons? It is difficult, very difficult for them. Yeah. Because obviously, I'm a constant reminder of what happened. Sally Challen on Woman's Hour Hour and there are links now on the Woman's Hour website to the domestic violence helpline bbc.co.uk slash Woman's Hour. Pam emailed to say I have been married for 40 years and after making excuses for my husband's behaviour for 25

years finally the light bulb moment happened and it was because of something I'd heard on the radio but I suddenly realized that I was a victim of coercive control and my efforts to take my life back began then at the age of 50. I contacted women's aid and then the freedom program that really opened my eyes and suddenly you realize that what you thought was love was actually just control. I stayed but I stood up for myself, as with all bullies, my husband backed down. And I began to make a life for myself while still staying in the marital home, but mentally divorcing myself from my husband. Now he has dementia, and I am doomed to care for someone I haven't liked or loved for many years once I really understood what a sham my marriage had been.

Pam, thank you for that. That's absolutely, on every level, a truly terrible email. But thank you for telling us about your experience. And it's fair to say that there were many, many emails after that interview with Sally Challen, with some of you, perhaps like Pam, thinking about your own marriage, other people referring back to their parents' marriage. So really some very, very telling stuff.

But thank you all for contacting the programme. Phoebe Waller-Bridge, creator and performer of Fleabag and adapter, of course, of Killing Eve, had a brilliant night at the Emmy Awards on Monday night. She got three awards, for Best Lead Actor in a Comedy Series, Best Writing, and the show itself, Fleabag, won Best Comedy. And it's now been reported she's been offered £20 million a year to create new shows for Amazon Prime Video.

Oh, and she's still busy working on the new James Bond film. In her speech, she confessed that the work hadn't been easy. I find writing really, really hard and really painful. But I'd like to say just honestly from the bottom of my heart that the reason that I do it is this. No! Oh my God! No. Thank you. I find acting really hard and really painful. This is just getting ridiculous. Well, her speeches were recorded by the Television Academy. Heta Howes lectures in literature at City University in London and is a bit of a fan.

Emma Bullimore is a TV and culture critic. What did bring what Phoebe described as a dirty, pervy, angry, messed up woman to the Emmys? I think her ability to stay true to herself, which is a massive cliche, but actually is what she's been able to do. In TV, it's very easy to get your message diluted, to not really be able to stick to what you wanted to do. In TV, it's very easy to get your message diluted, to not really be able to stick to what you wanted to say. But she had this really strong voice. Fleabag started as this little 10-minute show, piece of stand-up, then went to the Edinburgh Festival, then the Soho Theatre.

And to get it on TV, it was kind of outrageous and a voice we hadn't heard before, a brand of feminism we hadn't heard before. She liked to call it feminism with personality. And it was such a breath of fresh air. But I can only imagine how difficult it must have been in little meeting rooms at the BBC to try and say, no, I do want to do this outrageous scene. I do want to say that. But the fact that she's been able to get that to the screen

and really sort of be unapologetic and brash and bold and fantastic is, I think, what people have really responded to. Heta, I know you watched it right from the start on television. Yes, big fan. So what did you make of it when you first saw it? You know, a lot of sex, a lot of talking very frankly and honestly about being single, kind of putting voice to things that maybe you're thinking but never say out loud.

I think that's what I loved about the character is that she's not afraid to say anything. And because there's this clever thing in the show where she's kind of speaking to us as an aside, as an audience, as well as to the characters, we get sort of this real insight into what's going on into her head. I think I was newly single at the time and I was watching it and I was like, yes, I can relate to what dating is like in London.

Emma, what is it, though, about her work, the way she puts it together that makes her stand out? It's so intelligent and slick and quick, and you don't get room to be bored or to linger at any point. But it's also just really funny. You know, it's an enjoyable thing to watch as well. It's so dense. It's the kind of show you can't really watch

while you're doing something else or you're on your phone. It requires your commitment. And it's one of those that actually gets better. I think series two is actually stronger than series one. And the fact that, you know, she's taken someone like Andrew Scott, who had a massive profile from Sherlock and the theatre and all sorts of things, and almost taken credit for his whole career because everyone just sees him as the hot priest now. But yeah, it's just, it's such a fresh voice.

And she still feels like someone you'd want to go to the pub with and and just have a pint and and be normal with she has that quality that people like Olivia Colman Sheridan Smith have that she can stand at the Emmys on top of the world and you still feel like you could have something in common with her because she was she was so relatable and natural I know you've met her a couple of times. How similar actually is her own character to Fleabag? Well, she always says a lot of her is in Fleabag. And I think there is quite a lot of overlap. I met her at the very beginning of it all, at the first press screening for the first Fleabag. And she was just very unassuming. She was proud of the show, but no

one really knew what was about to come. And then I met her many years later when it all kicked off. But she still was the same person. And I think that's key to it all, really. You know, it's so, that show is her. And obviously she brings herself to all of her work. But Killing Eve is based on someone else's book. And everything else is taking all sorts of influences. But Fleabag is her through and through.

And I think you see that on screen. And that's why it is so successful. Heta, how important do you think it is that, you know, she said very clearly there will be no more Fleabags after the sad parting from the hot priest. How important is it actually to stop before a series maybe begins to stale? I think it was such a smart decision. I think, you know, it could have carried on and been amazing

and part of me as a fan would have loved to have seen more but I think knowing when to stop and creating something kind of complete and and sort of of its own arc rather than trying to push it past just just for more money really and sort of more kind of oh we can we can get a bit more out of this wouldn't have stayed true to what the show is about what it it's trying to do. That last scene, so many people have said this, sort of critics online, but that last scene is so moving and so beautiful and it is the ending. I think the actress who plays her sister in it said it's poetry

and it is. To have gone back and tried to do something more with it after that wouldn't have been staying true to what the show is doing. Just one last point, Emma. I mean, British women seem to be doing rather well at the moment. Olivia Colman, obviously, got an Oscar. Jodie Com women and all that kind of thing. But what I'm really heartened by, as you were saying, is that people like Olivia and Phoebe are just able to be themselves and to not be this glossy version of womanhood that Hollywood has so often supported. But to see someone like Olivia Colman, who we all know from Peep Show days, and now she's up there getting an Oscar, but still being herself. And of course,

she looked fabulous, but not, you know, she's not all plastic surgery. You know, she is herself. She's got her sense of humor. She's been able to be true to herself in the same way as Phoebe. And I think that is such a powerful message for women, that you can reach that kind of stratospheric level in the most superficial industry in the world and still be funny and still be fresh. And long may that continue.

Jenny, talking to Emma Bullimore and Heta Howes on Women's Hour this week. Back in July the programme focused on black maternal mortality rates in Britain. Black women here are five times more likely than their white counterparts to die during pregnancy, birth or postpartum. Now we should say that fortunately for us maternal mortality rates in this country are low but nevertheless that really is a significant and worrying statistic. In the USA the situation is marginally better. Women of colour are three to four times more likely to die during pregnancy, birth or postpartum. Jenny Joseph trained as a midwife here. She now works in the States and her work there has successfully reduced maternal and perinatal mortality in some of the most vulnerable groups of women in the States. She is the founder and

CEO of Common Sense Childbirth based in Orlando in Florida. She was in London for the first ever conference on this subject, British black maternal death rates. Sadly, the truth is, this has been going on for a very long time. And in the United States, obviously, for decades, I would almost say centuries, it's quite ridiculous. And the fact is that now as we bring this information forward, people act very surprised, horrified, just incredulous. But actually, it's been in plain sight. And we need to now really start moving forward with changing, fixing. This cannot go on. It cannot stand.

You did work as a midwife in the UK for quite some time, didn't you? Absolutely. I was trained here. In fact, I was a midwife in Edgeware General Hospital. It started in 1979. I immigrated to the States in 1989. So I've been in the United States for 30 years. But I took that British midwife with me. I was compelled to use my midwifery skills. But interestingly, the Americans don't use midwifery as the main support for women's health and pregnancy. What do they do? Literally, obstetricians

handle most of the cases, I would say 90% of the maternity cases. So what's happened is obstetrics became a specialty, you have to acknowledge that it's because money changes hands. And in that specialty, women have suffered. Because midwifery, as you know, worldwide is the, you know, taking care of women in their prenatal, postpartum and during birth. And when you have specialists doing that, they kind of come up with things to do, interventions, surgery, things that are harmful, it seems to women. And that has some part to play in the morbidity and mortality of women. But what's most important to recognise here, Jane, is that

it's the structural behaviours that are lethal. OK, now I want to take you up on that. I know you've made a big difference in Florida and we'll talk about that. When you talk about structural change and difference, in Britain, I would assume everyone can, whether they do or not, it's neither here nor there, but they can access antenatal care because it's free. Money isn't part of the problem. Yes, yes. So why do we have problems? Well, you see, here in the UK, when you have free access, what we haven't really considered is the quality of care that you're accessing, the type of care that's delivered to you. So it's not to suggest that the care is poor, but there is definite evidence that the biases, the unconscious or conscious biases and ways of being are what impacts the quality of the care you receive.

So, for example, what I'm talking about here would be a woman of color, perhaps an African descent woman may have different treatment, whether it's purposeful or not. In the UK. In the United Kingdom, simply because of the race, because of her colour, and that the choices for her may be different, or the response to her may be different. One of the things we know across both continents is that women, black women, especially are not listened to, not believed, not trusted, not engaged in terms of their, you know, being self determined in their care, having an opinion in their care, being ignored. I mean, people are dying for being ignored. What about the impact, though, of women of colour who work within the system?

Britain, absolutely rightly, owes a huge debt of thanks to the many women who came to work in the NHS. That is so important. We have really realised that, you know, black women were the backbone of the NHS. And to this day, we know there's discrimination inside of that. There's more disciplinary action, for example, against black nurses and midwives. There's less promotion. There's less opportunity. Certainly the way that they have been treated in the system has also impacted health. So you've got a sort of a double-edged sword here. From the perspective of the women themselves, the patients, and the employees, you've got both sides suffering

under the impact of racism within that system. There's not an investment in both sides thriving and flourishing and having full agency inside of this system. So grateful that we may be for the fact that you can access the care, we now have to acknowledge that that care has not been of the same quality for everybody. It is not equitable care that's being delivered. You are absolutely just straight down the line about this. I've read about you and you say being black shouldn't be a risk factor, but we have to acknowledge that racism is. Absolutely. So it's racism, not race, that's causing the problem. But we continue to look at this as if it's, well, there must be something inherently wrong with black women. It's not

genetic. It's not physiological. It has to then be the treatment. You see, because in the United States, we look at this as, oh, well, women can't access the care at all. If they have they don't have insurance or they're low income or they're in rural areas where there are no services. That's the reason why they're dying. No. Because here we are clearly in the United Kingdom. We have access. Yeah. And still dying. Yes. You don't have to. The one thing you never have to worry about here. Yes. And we don't give thanks for this often enough is the cost of it.

So take me to Florida. Yes. And your clinic. What happens? Why have you had success rates? And let's focus on, for example, low birth weight. Yes. Well, historically, black women in the United States have premature babies, low birth weight babies, and they themselves are pretty ill during pregnancy and in between pregnancies. Because? Because of the fact that they can't access any kind of quality care or support. So when I got there as a midwife, I was really keen to practice as a midwife. And midwifery is not very common in the United States either. So you can imagine. So I started a practice where I was very keen to open the doors to anyone who wanted the care.

And it was simply an offering that unrestricted access to care, whether you could pay or couldn't pay, whether you were insured or not. And over the course of these last three decades, we figured out that just being compassionate, open, trusting, listening, those kinds of behaviors have literally eradicated prematurity in the population of women I serve. And I do serve majority women of color, women who are at risk for these poor outcomes. Suddenly they're thriving. So if you think about that, what I'm doing is not even expensive. It's not anything unusual.

How is it funded? Well, it's very difficult. We are a non-profit organisation. We have some grant funds. We have some donations. But really, we just sort of break even and we just keep going. I feel like it's from the perspective of it's a human right to have access to quality care that's going to keep you safe, that you are going to be able to survive your pregnancy and your birth and your child will thrive. So we do that from a place of

this is our work, this is our mission, if you will, but that it's unconscionable to not offer care in this way, especially with the outcomes being so clear. You know, I don't think many people will have forgotten the Serena Williams experience, which just for anyone who has just briefly outline what she said. Serena really considering wealth, celebrity, power, everything, agency. Yes. She was still in the dire straits because as a black woman, when she put her head out of the door and said to the nurse, I need help, she was ignored.

Right. And this is this really confirms for us that it is about racism. It's about classism a lot. It's definitely about sexism. OK. And certainly the structure that supports and condones that behavior. In other words, there isn't the same disciplinary action for, oh, you're the one that didn't call Serena's doctor. You're out. No, it's okay. Well, you know, so that's where we know that that's where the work has to be done. We have to change our responses. I call this maternal toxicity. And it's a pop up situation, the response to who you

are, your race or your social economic status, that response can be lethal. That's where you bring the maternal toxicity around yourself just by being who you are. That's what we have to address. Jenny Joseph on Women's Hour this week. And still to come on this edition of the programme, the history of knitting in the company of Esther Rutter. And we celebrate as well the electronic musician Suzanne Chiani, who gave a concert in London this week. Now, two plays are both asking a similar question. What does it take for a mother to stop loving her child? How might she respond if a son is found guilty of a terrible crime such as rape? In Mother of Him at the Park Theatre in London, Tracey-Anne Oberman is playing Brenda,

whose 17-year-old son Matthew is accused of raping three young women. In When the Crows Visit by Anupama Chandrasekhar, a mother faces a similar crisis. This play is set in India and it'll be at the Kiln Theatre in Kilburn in London later on this month. Jenny asked Tracey-Anne how she prepared to play a mother in this situation. It's interesting I am a mother but I'm so different to the character Brenda and it was it was a difficult ask because I kept trying to work out her motivations for why she responds

in the way she does. I look I read a lot about mothers whose children have committed appalling crimes and I particularly did a lot of work on children have committed appalling crimes, and I particularly did a lot of work on Sue Klebold, who was Dylan Klebold's mother. He was one of the Columbine killers. And, you know, a mother whose son texts her the night before and says, I'm so glad you sent me to the prom, I danced with a girl. And then the next day goes out and shoots 31 school people and himself.

So it was about mothers in crisis and mothers who cannot see it coming, who think they know their little child that has grown into a big child and it does something unspeakable. And it was interesting to read and to study mothers who have had to face what having a child doing something unacceptable has done to them and their families. I saw the play the other night and I have to tell you, I was on the edge of my seat who have had to face what having a child doing something unacceptable has done to them and their families. I saw the play the other night, and I have to tell you, I was on the edge of my seat throughout because it's a really taxing play to watch. Why did you decide to take it on?

I was sent, I was given the play by the director when I was down in Chichester, and my heart sank when I saw the word mother because mothers are normally the worst parts in anything, stage, screen or television. The mother is normally the most underwritten, terrible part. So I thought, well, I'll read it. And it really gripped me because, first of all,

it was written by a very young man. He was only 25 when he wrote it, Evan. It was based on a true story of a friend of his who was under house arrest for rape. And he went away and wrote a play about this awful crime, but through the prism of the mother. It's about the impact that it has on her. So in some ways, his crime is irrelevant to the play.

It's not a rape play. It's about the impact on that mother. So to write a female character that is going through crisis, who has micromanaged her family as a single mother her whole life, everything has been in her control, for this to spin out was fascinating. And one other thing, I think the social media aspect of it is we set reset it in 1998. So it's not even like she could rewrite her own narrative on a Facebook page. She's totally beholden to the press to tell her story. Anna, why did you become interested in why a mother,

and in your play a grandmother too, would refuse to accept that their son or grandson could be capable of a terrible crime? I started writing this play, one, as an adaptation of Ibsen's Ghosts and two, as a response to the Delhi rape incident and you know, women should not go out at night. And another very popular female politician was quoted as saying that, you know, it's surviving rape is worse than death. So I just want to clarify that in my play, the son is merely accused and he may or may not have done the crime

but it's the scandal surrounding such an event. Backdrop is a gang rape which the son may or may not have committed. So for me I was writing about my society the embedded patriarchy in my society, and the voices of patriarchy in my society, which is primarily our women.

In both plays, Tracey-Ann, it's the mother who seems to be potentially to blame for why her son has gone wrong. Why do you suppose that is so often the case? Fascinating. Evan was writing this at the same time as the Madeleine McCann incident was unfolding and he said he was really struck by the attention on Kate McCann all the time. What does she look like? What was she wearing?

Was she grieving appropriately? And Gerry was left very much alone. I don't know. The press's obsession with our own narrative about what motherhood is. You know, my mum tested me on my lines for this. And she kept saying, I don't understand this woman. She's so unmotherly. She doesn't behave like a mother.

And I said, but mum, what is a mother? What is a mother meant to do? She said, well, not this. And I said, but that's the point of the play. You know, what is a mother's responsibility? And then she called me up the next day and said, I can't get that bloody play out. My head is so really affected.

I don't know. I think our images of motherhood, our perception of what a mother should be, the idea that we give birth and so therefore we are wholly responsible for this creation, I think is a false narrative, but it's something that we take on. The grandmother, Anu, in your play says,

a mother always looks after her son. How much social pressure is there on that relationship to a much greater extent than there would be on a mother's relationship with her daughter? I think, particularly in India, the bond between mother and son is incredibly sacred. You have men deifying their mother as the goddess. So you have the mother figure and you have, you know, those who don't fall into the virtuous woman category fall into the trap of the whore, the Madonna and the whore. That dichotomy exists quite clearly in India.

So I was trying to explore the two characters that we've created in our society through my play. And yes, the pressure is very much on women as the nurturers of men. And there is a remarkable difference in the way women are brought up as opposed to how men are brought up. The mother in your play goes quite far. She actually tries to bribe the police away from him. Why would she go that far?

And then, Tracy, would that happen here, would you think? I'm talking about a society where any hint of any scandal will be seen as a comment on that family. So there is always an omerta surrounding, you know, issues of gender violence, which is why domestic violence never gets out of the house. And there is a suggestion in your play. Yes, exactly. I mean, you mentioned the ghost references, that the father has been a not very nice man. reading about the justice system in India. Just yesterday, a woman who had accused a man of rape has been sent to prison.

So the victim continues to be victimized because our justice system is shit. And that is what I'm also trying to explore in my play. It's not just a family or a person. It's the society in general, the corruption of the society in allowing a woman to continue to be victimised. Tracey-Ann, would you say what happens to the mother in your play, victimisation? Yes, I mean, I think the shocking thing for Brenda

is that the media turn the attention on her. It's all about the mother rather than the even the child it's about the scrutiny on her the way she brought the children up every single thing about her every move that she takes she's got hordes of paparazzi outside the house she can't go anywhere um you know this is terribly affected by the younger one she's got an eight-year-old that she's trying to bring up and send to school and carry on normality he can't now leave the house without being hounded as bullying going on it's proper family impact i had two friends who work in in rape crisis who saw it on the first night and said they were so pleased to see a play that talked about the impact of these things on the

family but you talk about how far brenda would go i think the love in the play i think brenda is is trying her best. She's in such shock because it's raw. It's only just come out, the boy has come forward and said, I'm guilty. And they're awaiting sentencing in that week under house arrest. And she's doing everything she can to minimise his sentence by getting him tried as a child. So in some ways, there is a sense of, I don't even want to deal with his crime. I don't want to even think about the violation of women. I just need to minimise the impact on him. Is it possible to love your child unconditionally?

I think so. I think you can hate the... This is the playing Brenda every night. I think you can hate the action, you can hate what they've become, but they're still your baby. Tracy Anne Oberman and Anupama Chandrasekhar. Mother of him is at the Park Theatre until October the 26th and When the Crows Visit will run at the Kiln Theatre from October the 23rd to the 30th of November. Here's an anonymous email. I've just been listening to your piece on motherhood and

unconditional love. I went through this with my son. When he was nearly 15, he was accused of raping a girl, but the case was dropped. My emotions were all over the place. How could I support him? I knew I would hate what he'd done, but I could never see how I would be able to abandon him. Once I managed to tell my mum what was happening which out of my shame took me a year I said I could never leave him to rot in prison. I would have to visit him and I knew this would lose me friends and family. I constantly looked at our parenting and asked why and how

did we allow him to get into this position. I still cannot come to terms with the past couple of years and the ramifications for us all are huge. I have disliked my son. Often I still do, but I also love him and I'm still doing my best to get him some training and a future. Thank you very much for that. Now, when Esther Rutter got a gift of some unusual Shetland wool she set

out on a voyage of discovery through the knitted history and culture of the British Isles. On the way she discovered the secret feminist history of knitting. She had grown up on a sheep farm in Suffolk. She now lives in Fife and is writer in residence at the University of St Andrews. Not only did I grow up on the sheep farm and helped out with the sheep, but my mum is also a fantastic spinner and weaver herself. So I learnt to spin from her. But she wasn't a knitter. In fact, it was my best friend's mum, a woman called Suzanne, who taught me to knit when I was seven,

and I've been knitting ever since. Right. And you got a gift relatively recently, I think, of some particular kind of wool. What happened there? Yes. So, again, this was my mum. She gave me this amazing characterful Shetland wool as a present, a Christmas present. And it was just amazing. And I just kept looking at it and thinking, wow, I need to make something really special from this. And that sent me on a quest to knit my way around the entire British Isles and to recreate 12 historic and culturally relevant garments that told the story of Britain's knitted history.

I've said that knitting is political and feminist, or it could be. Should it be? Oh, absolutely. There's a really long pedigree among knitting, knitting history, of knitting being really political. So, for example, the first Luddites, the workers from Nottinghamshire who smashed frames. They weren't weaving frames, they were actually knitting frames.

And the reason they were smashing them was because these people were making stockings and the income that they were able to draw from this was so marginal that if the machines came in, they were threatening this already very marginalised income that they had. And so the phrase poor as a stockinger was actually common at that time. Sorry, poor as a stockinger. Stockinger, somebody who makes stockings. They smashed these mechanised knitting frames because they were just such an incredible threat to their livelihood and in fact Lord Byron when he goes to give his maiden speech in the House of Lords it is about these knitters, these professional male knitters and that he speaks and he tries to protect and says that

the reason they've done this is to protect their own livelihoods and their families well but there's no doubt that's a real slice of history about which i knew nothing um we can we can track women's lives actually to a degree through through knitting can't we absolutely so particularly historically speaking when literacy rates were a lot lower than they are today uh when you have a knitted item it allows you to have that communion with the past, with the person who made it, however long ago that was. I mean, Britain's oldest surviving needle-made fabric comes from the 10th century.

And although we don't know the individual who made it, we can see the output of their hands from that. Also, something I found whilst I was doing my research is that people have a lot of stories related to the knitters in their own family. So people would see me knitting in public, they'd come over, they'd tell me about a grandmother, a sister, a wife, and suddenly we'd be bringing these people to life by talking about them.

So it's a really powerful tool, actually. I do. I love the fact that it's a craft that inspires conversations and takes people back into their own family histories. That's brilliant. It seems a shame to ask you about your knitted bikini, but I am going to ask you about it. Tell me the story. So when I was doing my research,

people who were born and growing up in the 40s, 50s and 60s kept telling me about these knitted swimwear that they had had made by their family members and how itchy it was and how saggy it was. So I thought, well, as a child of the 1980s, I haven't had this cultural experience. So I set about making myself a bikini. And as part of my research, I discovered that there was a huge,

huge industry in the Scottish borders of making underwear and swimwear and knitted on machines. And so I thought, well, this is brilliant. I can, A, have this cultural experience of my own hand-knitted bikini. And I can also tap into this history, which employed thousands of people from the beginning of the 19th century all the way through to the mid and even to the late 20th century. So I made a bikini from yarn spun in the borders, and I tested it in Northumberland. Sorry, you got into the sea in a knitted bikini.

Mm-hmm. And I'm very very very relieved to say that it stayed put it was a bit like a wetsuit in that it gradually kind of took on water but that actually kept me very warm because wool can absorb up to 30 of its own weight in water before it stops losing any of its insulating capacity oh really i'll never need to know that choice and in fact your whatever you wear when you go swimming providing you wear something, is likely to be knitted anyway. It's just knitted from man-made fibres and knitted on machines. But there's nothing like knitted fabric for following the curve of your body absolutely perfectly.

So, yeah, we all wear knitted swimwear. We just don't think of it like that. I think people can see on our website and on social media the knitted bikini. No one in Britain needs to see me in a knitted one piece. Nobody needs to see that ever. I'm not going to let you go without mentioning pussy hats. that the pussy hat was developed in California by a woman called Kat Coyle at the Little Knittery. And it was developed specifically in response to the election of Donald Trump as president of the United States. And it was designed as a very visual symbol

for people to wear at the women's marches in Washington and all over the world. It's a brilliant thing because it's visible. All pussy hats are handmade and you can't buy them. And it means that people who weren't able to physically go to the marches themselves were still able to register their political point of view by making them and sending them to people to wear

at the marches. So it's an incredibly potent symbol. And of course the name pussy hat with the little ears at the top echoing some of Donald Trump's less savoury remarks about women. And it's not, it's by far and away not the only kind of knitted, handmade symbol that has real political power. That's the writer Esther Rutter. Chris has a, well it is a confession. I had a knitted swimsuit

when I was four back in the 50s. My mum had a picture of me taken on the seafront at Cleethorpes, having just been into the sea. She used to enjoy bringing the photo out whenever I took a girlfriend home who she didn't like. It always worked for her. Mistress of the tactics was your mum, Chris, from The Sound of Things. She knew exactly what she was about, but I'm sure you look the part in your knitted trunks. This Thursday night, Suzanne Chiani gave a concert and performed an improvisation on her Buchla synthesiser. Now, she trained in classical music at University in the States in the 60s

and became interested in electronic music and sound design. She's been nominated five times for a Grammy Award and was the first woman to compose music for a Hollywood film, The Incredible Shrinking Woman. Her works appeared in numerous commercials, and there are also 15 albums of original music. Suzanne, that's from a Buchla concert in 1975. What is a Buchla? Don Buchla is credited with being the very first inventor of the analog modular musical instrument. In those days, we did not use the word synthesizer,

but today that's become the generic term for electronic music instruments. How did you come across him and the instrument? I was in the right place at the right time. I was in graduate school at the University of California in Berkeley, having come out from the East Coast. And I had heard of this phenomenon of making music with a machine. And then I was lucky enough to meet Don Bugla through a neighbor. And I went to work for him when I finished school.

And my whole life changed. But what was it? You were a classically trained musician. What was it about the electronics that made you think, yeah, that's for me? Well, I think it's no accident that there are so many women, actually, in electronic music. This is something we've discovered recently. They think of it as the domain of a male world. But in fact, women have always been attracted to electronic music because it gives them freedom. You're allowed to work on your own

independently and to be the sole creator of what you do. How easy was it in the 70s, though, to get a record deal for electronic music when you were a woman? It was, in a word, impossible. It was not possible. So being a woman, it was expected that I sang. And everything was conventional. I went all around the world actually looking for a record deal because in those days you had to have a record deal.

You couldn't make the LP on your own and you couldn't distribute it. So today is a new world and that's allowed me to have my own independent record label. Yes, and how did you manage to do that? How long did you have to wait before you could set up your own record label? Well, it was complicated. I thought of my albums really as my children. And so my first two record deals, I licensed. I did not give up the rights.

I didn't allow adoption, if you will. And then my third through eighth album, I don't own. They're on Sony, and I really don't have access to my own recorded work. This was quite upsetting to me. And so at that period in my life, I actually was married to a lawyer and he helped me to extricate myself from that deal and to continue on as an independent record label. Now you became a leading, I suppose the expression is sound designer, doing lots of adverts and jingles. And you invented, we tried to get permission to play

it this morning, but I think Coca-Cola have the rights to it. You invented the pop and pour sound effect for Coca-Cola. How did that come about? I had come to New York. So after I finished graduate school, and I was able to acquire, you know, the beginnings of my boucle, I first went to Los Angeles and met a lot of people in the film industry and gave lessons to composers there. Everybody was excited about this new machine. But I didn't like L.A., and I went to New York primarily to give a concert in an art gallery, and I never left. So for 19 years I stayed in New York. I had for the first several years just mykla with me. And due to, you know, the need for money and things starving,

I started to work in advertising. And advertising loved me because I was new and different and gave them an edge and something special. And I ended up doing a lot of sound logos for major corporations. So many, Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, General Electric, etc. I mean, all of them. And then became the first woman to write music for a Hollywood movie, The Incredible Drinking Woman. How much fun was that? Because I think there were a lot

of women on it. Yes, and that's why I was hired. I'm actually the first woman hired solo to compose the score for a major Hollywood feature. And Lily Tomlin, of course, was the star of that film, and the producer at Universal Pictures was a woman, Verna Fields. She had edited Jaws, and so got into a position of power at a major studio. And that's how I got hired. And I still believe today that that networking of women is what will lead to our more visibility in so many areas. How are the younger generation of women who are interested in electronic music developing it? Do they have an easier life than you? Well, you know, some of my disadvantages were my advantages, because I had a corner of the world,

musical world, that wasn't really shared. So I was a unique quantity in my day. Today, women are coming out into a very populated field. And part of the most interesting domain for women performers now is DJing. And I play a lot of festivals, and I meet a lot of the women DJs and I admire them. You know, they're very strong minded, they're independent, they are making headway. But statistically, they're still a small minority. And they're, you know, they don't have equal pay. Let's just say. And that was Suzanne Chiany talking to Jenny on Woman's Hour. I hope you can join us on Monday morning, just after 10. Amongst other things, I'm going to be discussing what it's like as an

ambassador. And we'll have the company of Judith Goff, who's just finished a four year position actually in Ukraine. She's about to become our woman in Stockholm as the British ambassador to Sweden. So we'll talk to Judith on Woman's Hour just after 10, Monday morning. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know.

It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.