Woman's Hour - Euros 22 legacy, Kansas and abortion rights, Dance music and women, Sam Smith, Juliette Pochin

Episode Date: August 3, 2022

Kansas is the first state in the US to decide in a referendum to protect abortion rights in a major victory for pro-choice groups. What impact could this have across the rest of America after the overturning of Roe vs Wade? Professor Fiona De Londras, Chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School updates us.The Lionesses win is still being celebrated, with thousands gathering in Trafalgar Square on Monday to celebrate. The women’s game, however, has a history of being dramatically underfunded compared to the men’s and currently 37% of schools don’t offer girls’ football in PE. To change this, the government has announced a £230 million investment into improving grassroots football… but will it work? Former English international footballer Rachel Yankey and Francesca Brown, the founder and chief executive of Goals4Girls discuss their hopes for women’s football and the lasting legacy of the Euro win.We’re looking at dance music on the programme today. A new report has found that just 5% of dance music in the UK charts has a female as the lead artist. The report also looks at gender equality issues at festivals, and how ‘The Male Gaze’ places pressure on women in the industry. The Radio 1 DJ Jaguar joins Jessica, alongside Nicola Davies, the report’s lead author. Sam Smith was the first, and youngest woman to ever run a stockbroking company in the UK, and she often found herself the only woman in a room or trading floor. She's one of just nine female CEOs of companies in the FTSE 100 index, and has decided to step down from her role at the firm she founded FinnCap Group PLC. So what are her reflections on how things have changed for women in the 24 years since she joined the world of finance? Last year she turned 50 - at the same time her daughter left home for university. Thrown by how much it affected her, Juliette Pochin, a record producer working with artists ranging from Alfie Boe through to Harry Styles and the London Symphony Orchestra, has come out from behind the studio and written a cabaret show Music, Mayhem and a Mezzo. She is making her debut at the Edinburgh Fringe from the 5th to the 13th August. Presenter: Jessica Creighton Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Professor Fiona de Londras Interviewed Guest: Rachel Yankey Interviewed Guest: Francesca Brown Interviewed Guest: Jaguar Interviewed Guest: Nicola Davies Interviewed Guest: Sam Smith Interviewed Guest: Juliette Pochin

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Jessica Crichton. Welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast. Now it's been three days since England women's historic Euros win and the waves of success are still very much being felt. Yesterday, thousands of fans crashed the FA website trying to grab a ticket to the Lionesses' next big game at Wembley, which is in October. There's also talk of the FA preparing to bid for the Women's World Cup in 2027. So it looks like at the top level, the women's game is flying. But what about

at grassroots level? We'll be talking to a football legend about how to make sure the Lionesses' success reaches the thousands of young girls who want to play the game. One of the issues for those young girls, though, is access. I remember when I was a bit younger, neither my primary school or my secondary school offered me football, but I could play with the boys at lunchtime. But what about the girls that don't want to do that and want to play in a girls only space. So I'd like to know what you think. Do you have a young daughter or perhaps a niece who has been inspired by the Lionesses but doesn't have the chance to play at school? Or do you have a girls only team

where you live in England perhaps? Let us know your experience and also what area you're in because it seems like a lot of this comes down to where you are in the country as to how easily you'll be able to find a girls only team. You can text Women's Hour on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. And on social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website. Also on the programme, a new report shows just how underrepresented women are in dance music. BBC DJ Jaguar talks of the hurdles that women have to jump over that men simply don't have to worry about. She's commissioned a report that found just 5% of dance music in the UK charts as a woman as the lead artist. We'll be talking about what else the report found and how Jaguar plans to redress the gender balance.

And keeping with the musical theme, we have a grand piano in the Woman's Hour studio. It's just across from where I'm sitting in front of this microphone. It's absolutely magnificent, ebony and absolutely glistening under the studio lights. And that's because we'll have a live performance from a record producer who's written a cabaret that will be debuting at the Edinburgh Fringe this week. Juliet Pochin will join us to discuss all the subjects that inspired that show, including turning 50, going through menopause and her daughter leaving for university. and we'll be speaking to a woman who was the first and youngest to ever run a stockbroking company in the UK. Sam Smith went from being the only woman in the room to being one of just nine female CEOs of companies in the FTSE 100 index. She'll be telling us about how things have changed for women since she started working in brokerage. But first this morning the overturning of Roe versus Wade in the US ended the constitutional right for a woman to access an abortion and handed that decision to individual states.

Whilst more than a dozen states have moved to ban or further restrict abortion since the Supreme Court decision, last night saw a major victory for pro-choice groups. of Kansas put the vote to a referendum and projections suggest that over 60% voted to uphold the state's right for women to access abortion. A leading anti-abortion activist in the US, Mary Owens, said this is the first of many battles that we're going to be seeing across many states. Referendums will be held later in the year in other states and the issue is likely to be central to the November midterms. Professor Fiona de Londras is the chair of global legal studies at Birmingham Law School. I spoke to her earlier, and I asked her, firstly, why Kansas had decided to hold that referendum. In 2019, the Supreme Court in the state of Kansas had held that the Constitution of Kansas protected a right to access abortion. And so since then, conservative and anti-abortion activists had been seeking to

overturn that decision through a referendum that would change the state's constitution. And that's the referendum that took place yesterday. So it was planned, drafted, proposed, etc. in advance of Roe against Wade being overturned. And I think, you know, with a couple of assumptions being made about, for example, what the turnout would be like and so on in a referendum in a Roe against Wade world, let's say. But, of course, we're not in a row against Wade world anymore. And the turnout was considerably higher than they expected yesterday. And almost 60% of the vote was against changing the situation in the Kansas constitution. So abortion remains protected as a matter of Kansan law. How surprising is that considering that Kansas is traditionally a conservative state? It is quite surprising. As you say, it's a very conservative state.

It's also, you know, overwhelmingly a rural state, which is sometimes considered to be relevant to these questions of so-called social progress. And so it was surprising to everybody, really, that it did not succeed and that the margin was so large. Maybe it shouldn't have been surprising because for decades, polling across the United States has consistently shown that most people sit somewhere in the middle on abortion. They don't really want an absolute ban and they don't really want what might be considered or they might present as abortion on request, but they want something in between. And really, that's what this reflects. They did not want a constitutional ban on abortion. And that was true in very conservative parts of Kansas, like rural West Kansas, and in the cities of Kansas. So this is the first US state to put abortion rights to a vote since the US Supreme Court overruled Roe versus Wade. So is this an indicator, do you think, then, of what might come for the rest of the states if they considering putting this on the ballot in the midterm elections. So at the moment, there are three states where we think it's likely there will be a ballot to restrict abortion. And those are the states of Kentucky and Montana and Colorado.

There are another four states where we anticipate a ballot to protect access to abortion as a matter of state law. And those are Michigan, Kentucky, Vermont and California. Now, in some of those states, you know, we might say we can anticipate the results like California or Vermont. But in others where anti-abortion activists may have felt more secure in putting the ballot to the people, I think they will now today be considerably worried about what this might say about the popularity of absolutist positions on the question of abortion. We're now hearing that those in need of an abortion are travelling to states where abortion

is still legal. So will Kansas become one of those centres for the Midwest, do you think? No, probably not. So abortion is lawful in Kansas, but it's not actually hugely accessible. So there are, I think, four clinics operating in the state of Kansas, but most of them are in urban centres in large parts of western Kansas. Kansas is a large place. Women are hundreds of miles away from a Kansan clinic. And in fact, they usually or more often would cross the border and access abortion in another neighboring state where it's available. So, you know, the kind of the legislative or the political momentum in the state legislature in Kansas is very unlikely to change because of this to make abortion more available. But what it does mean is that they won't be able to pass the law to ban it. And so, of course, that is of extreme importance to women and pregnant people who are living in

Kansas and for whom those clinics are accessible. So where is this happening? Because I believe Illinois is one of those places, isn't it? Yeah, so Illinois has fairly good access to abortion and it is experiencing a significant uptick in abortion travel from one neighbouring state in particular which is the state of Wisconsin because frankly nobody really knows what the law in Wisconsin is now. So Planned Parenthood has suspended providing abortion there and that's because it's a very old law from around 1849 which banned abortion. And of course, under Roe against Wade, that law couldn't operate because the state law cannot be

in conflict with the national constitution. But now Roe against Wade doesn't exist anymore as federal protection. And nobody really knows whether the state is going to enforce that 1849 law. So women and pregnant people in Wisconsin are being assisted to travel to Illinois to access abortions. And medics who were providing in Wisconsin, who are licensed in Illinois, are traveling to Illinois to provide. And that is just one example of these abortion travel flows that have long existed in the United States, two states where abortion is available, which are, of course, immensely important for women who need abortion, but also put huge pressure on the healthcare infrastructure in the states where abortion is available. So let's get an idea of the current picture across the United States, Fiona. How many states have actually banned abortion so far?

So since the decision overturning Roe, we have eight states that have introduced an absolute ban, which is in operation. Four states that have introduced a six week ban, which is in operation, and two states that have introduced a 15-week ban and then we have five more states where absolute bans are have been introduced but are not in force because they are currently under dispute at state level courts and then a couple of others with the ballots and this situation in Wisconsin where nobody knows what the law is so around around about as predicted, you're looking at around about half of the states in total will probably by the end of the year have significantly changed their law on abortion. And there's more of these votes to come. Just give us an overview of how you think these votes will go in other states. Look, it's very difficult to predict. I think the ballots where the attempt is to secure abortion, in other words, to protect against continues as it did in Kansas, where even, you know, counties, rural counties where Donald Trump got 81% of the vote in 2020,

and the proposed change got less than 60% of the vote yesterday, if that continues, it's pretty difficult to see many of these proposals succeeding. But I don't want to be a hostage to fortune. You know, it is absolutely possible that they would. And this will have energised the anti-abortion campaigners who will put more money and more effort into trying to ensure that they get the kind of turnout they need. So big turnout was key yesterday in Kansas.

That's really what made the difference. Professor Fiona DeLondras, who is the chair of Global Legal Studies at Birmingham Law School. Now, I know it's been three days since, of course, England women's historic Euros win, but we're going to talk about it because it's still being celebrated. Thousands, in fact, celebrated with the players in Trafalgar Square on Monday. And yesterday, the supporters crashed the FA's website trying to get tickets for the next big match at Wembley which is in October. So it looks like

from the face of it at least at the top level the women's game is thriving but what about at the grassroots level? Now the women's game has a history of being significantly underfunded compared to the men's and currently more than a third of schools don't offer girls football in PE lessons as I spoke about a few minutes ago. Now the government says it will invest 230 million pounds into improving grassroots football but will it work and what will be the lasting legacy of the Lionesses success now to discuss this delighted to say that we'll be joined by england legend rachel yankee who was capped 129 times for her country so many times i can't even get it out and francesca brown who's the founder and chief executive of football

development program goals for girls good morning to you ladies morning fr Francesca, firstly, Goals for Girls is supportive of young women and girls through football. So I have to ask, how did the young girls that you work with react to that historic night at Wembley on Sunday? Their face was an absolute picture. Just to turn around and see them all celebrating um especially when that final whistle went we were all on the edge of our seats but we knew they had it in the bag and when that final whistle went just their faces and the reason why I say their faces is Goals for Girls has been running since 2011 and we have been pioneering for a moment like that for so many years and for those girls who have been on our programs to actually witness that moment it was just something for goals for girls in itself and

those young people it was a start of like you just said a legacy they witness history and they can actually see it and believe that it's actually possible that that's what this is all about really isn't it it's seeing, it's being inspired by it, and then it's trying to emulate it. Now, the Department of Education haven't committed to equal access to football in schools, Francesca. So they say basically that it's up to schools to decide which sports they teach.

What's your response to that? I think this is where the problem lies, really. If you think about secondary education, the drop-off rate for young women and girls, especially with us working in schools, is between the ages of especially 14 to 16. So me working within schools within London, I'm finding that when a school doesn't commit to allowing equal access, it makes it difficult for young women and girls, especially within marginalised communities, to access the beautiful game. Imagine a young woman who's from a marginalised community who cannot actually access sport from her home. Most of these girls

don't even have back gardens. They have to rely on going to the park to play football. Some of their parents can't even afford to pay the subs for a football team. So they're relying on a school to put these things in place to keep that little girl's dreams alive, to put a provision in place which is going to push them and provide that inspiration for them to look at people like Rachel Yankee, Alex Scott and the Lion Assist to say, you know what, this is actually possible

for me to fulfill a career in this once you put a barrier on that for young women and girls you're going to find that the drop of rate within these schools are going to be significantly high um for young women accessing accessing football um we've got so many barriers not only just the education system but we've got the fact that girls don't want to play football with the boys because they may get looked down on um or they may hopefully after the legacy England have brought home there's no little remarks of you can't play football no more but they they don't want to during a certain age be a part of that because they are growing they they don't want the boys

looking at them in their shorts and if they've not got the right sports bras on and feeling like if they've kicked a ball wrong, they're going to be ridiculed for it. Yeah, I think you're right there because I remember I was playing, I had to play with the boys because there were no other girls that wanted to play. But I think they would have wanted to play had they had the opportunity to play with other girls

rather than having to mix with boys. And I have to say I did it. I did play with boys, but I was still nervous doing it. I think we might have lost Francesca there. And we were talking about the government's response that the Department of Education not committing to equal access to football in schools. And they have given us a statement.

A spokesperson has said that the success of the Lionesses in the Women's Euro 2022 will inspire a generation of girls to get involved with football. Our ambitious school sport and activity action plan is helping more girls to take part in physical activity. And the recently announced Your Time programme will give thousands of girls access to competitive sports opportunities, helping them to inspire and encourage their peers to take part. Schools can decide what schools they offer and should aim to take their pupils' views into account on which

activities they want to be able to do. The government also say, Francesca, that they'll invest 230 million into improving grassroots football. So given all that you've just said and the barriers that exist for girls, particularly those in marginalised communities, where do you want to see that money spent? Within those communities, there's a lot. We need to funnel that down to the grassroots. I was having this conversation yesterday that if we're going to actually put this fund into the right places and the right provisions,

what needs to happen is that a prime example would be that there's a lot of girls who cannot afford to sign up to clubs. That's a massive barrier. So why do we not put bursaries in place for those girls who cannot possibly afford it? The same way how we do with the school uniform scheme, we do it with this. We put things like that in place so that clubs can actually fund for girls to come in and to break down that barrier if they are struggling.

Because what's happening is those gifted and talented players are being overlooked because they can't start off within the grassroots game because they haven't got the means to access it. So I think that when the government are distributing this money, they need to look at the clubs which are actually doing the work on the ground and actually ask where the money needs to be going to. Yeah, I think we're having a few issues here.

Clearly, Francesca, I just want to bring Rachel in here because Rachel, we're talking about the girls playing with the boys you know all about that of course you had to shave your head when you was a child to basically show yourself as a boy so that you could get into the local team tell us about that experience and the other challenges that you faced. I just think that it was a lot easier to play football pretending to be a boy because everybody saw that football was a game for boys and nobody sort of judged me in the way that they did when they knew I was a girl. So for me, I thoroughly enjoyed playing in the boys' team

and pretending to be a boy and getting through. But I know it's not the case for everybody. And that's why, like you say, funding is so important. Giving people the opportunity is so important. When we talk about grassroots funding, we always seem to look at children, which is massively important that you inspire children. But for me, I look at it as there was a generation, probably older than myself, that never got the opportunity to play.

Schools would shut it down straight away. You can't play football. And there's a lot of people that I saw go into the game at Wembley where they were kind of like, I wish I had this opportunity. This game is so inspiring. And I was never allowed to play football. You know, I like to see campaigns like where Green King have put in the proud to pitch in campaign where they, you know,

percentage of the drinks that are sold goes into a funding pot to make up £3,000, which anybody over 18. And then, you know, Google and download and try and apply for this funding so that hopefully we can get more mums more older generation playing football and then if they're or playing sport and then if they're doing it then that sends a really positive message to the younger generation the kids i think we need to we need to yes we've got the visible role models of of the england team but we need people that were, we've got the visible role models of the England team, but we need people that were there, you know, watching the game to really have a go at sport,

have a healthier lifestyle and send message to the younger generation that, you know what, you can do it. I missed out when I was younger, but, you know, now we can have a go and we can really inspire everybody. And, you know, the fact of the funding for me is, you know, if we want something to work, we need to make it of value. We need to show that women's sports stars are valued in the same way that we value our male sports stars. So, you know, we put a lot of budget into marketing for our male sports stars and, you know, World Cups and FA Cup finals. We don't put the same budget into the women's. So therefore, you kind of devalue in the game.

So what message are we sending to our young children, both boys and girls? Yeah. So I think that for me is somewhere where we really, you know, need to make sure that we value the sports. We value our sports stars in an equal way. And then you can inspire young girls, but you can also educate young boys that, you know, sport is OK for women to play whatever, you know, whatever sport, whether it's football. Yeah, that's certainly that's definitely an area that needs improvement, Rachel. Francesca, I just want to bring you back in quickly, if you can still hear me. And a survey by Women in Sport found that 43% of girls lose interest in the sport by the time they're teenagers. What advice would you give to parents or carers of young girls that are in sport or in football in particular, to stop that from happening? Just encouraging them, being their advocates,

being their cheerleaders, making sure that we can support them the best way we possibly can. And also speaking to their coaches, speaking to their schools and making sure that we can kind of ensure that we keep that participation and that community together. We find that once one outlet loses interest, it almost causes a domino effect. So if you are a parent, a carer or within the educational system and you do want, obviously, for your young people or your child to get involved, You really do need to pioneer it and be their biggest advocate because what I found is that as soon as a parent

or somebody loses interest within what they're doing, especially when they're trying to get their foot in the door and they're not really used to playing football as a young woman, you do need some kind of support to say, don't worry, if you get things wrong, it's okay. You will get there in the end. I was lucky enough to have that. And I think that's a big part of encouraging,

inspiring more young girls to get into football. Francesca, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you for your time. Francesca Brown and Rachel Yankee joining me on Women's Hour this morning. Now let's talk about dance music. Only 5% of dance music in the UK charts has a woman as the lead artist. It's a finding from a new report that's out today looking at the gender disparity in the UK dance industry.

The report also looks at gender equality issues at festivals and how the male gaze places pressure on women in the industry. Now, these are issues close to the heart of our next guest, Jaguar, the BBC Radio 1 dance DJ, broadcaster and journalist whose foundation commissioned the report, and Nicola Davies, freelance journalist and the report's lead author. They are both with me in the studio. Good morning. Good morning. It's interesting that we're talking about this because it's so relevant. Even a few days ago, Jaguar, you tweeted about the negativity of the male gays, didn't you? Yes, I was referring to Becky Hill's performance at the women's final at Wembley. Amazing performance. I loved it. And then I did look on Twitter and see negative comments about what she was wearing and people saying, how can she dress like that?

And completely like just overstepping any acknowledgement of her talent, which the songs she's written, the songs she performed, belittling her to what she was wearing and her body. And guess who those people were writing most of those tweets? Tell me. They were men. I thought her outfit was magnificent, matched by her exceptional voice as well how much what happened there with Becky Hill was representative of the issues in dance music oh I mean it's a prime example of what we found in the report we spoke to loads of DJs and people in the industry, women and non-binary people. And yeah, one interesting part of it was about the male gaze and actually could really relate to what your previous guests

were just saying about football, shaving their head and kind of dressing androgynously. That's a real big part of the report. A lot of artists said they don't feel comfortable dressing, maybe showing too much skin because they're worried they'll be sexualized by men. And therefore people will say, oh, she's only got that because she's attractive or, and I've seen that so many times just about women, not about men in dance music. And it's a double standard. So that explains why you wanted to commission the report. So, so Nicola, what were the key findings? So i think festival lineups are something which obviously do get talked about in the media a lot but it was a big finding for us not only in the sense of

how many female and non-binary artists are part of festival lineups but also the the um the number of times the same female non-binary artist is booked um so there's a illusion of visibility there sometimes of oh you know we've booked we've got a few female non-binary artists but then they're all the same ones and that's nothing to do with the talent or how amazing those artists are and they fully deserve that but there are so many more out there and um the term lazy promoters was used quite a few times in our interviews and um that obviously doesn't apply to everyone but i think that was one of the the big findings um another one really was about safety and safe spaces um which again comes down

to lineups as well it's all connected of course all about the live ecosystem um but just around how especially when younger female non-binary artists are starting out you're probably also going to be doing the like 1am 2am 3am slots you're getting to clubs probably by yourself you don't have a team you're having to travel people are intoxicated and all of that around you how you deal with that as a young person especially a non-male is very very difficult um i suppose then you weren't surprised by any of these findings jaguar i wasn't surprised. I did try and, you know, see this with an open mind as it's kind of coming from me. And I can relate to a lot of the things

in there, particularly the experiences of safety. And so many times I've turned up at clubs and you go to the green room where you're meant to chill out before you're set and there's loads of people in there drinking and smoking and you can it can really rattle you. In the report, we speak to Afia Lua and they talk about an instance where they were punched at a gig in a club reported it to the bouncer they didn't do anything i know djs you've had their drinks spiked in their own green rooms i know djs you haven't been allowed into the club because the bouncer doesn't believe that they're playing on the lineup because they're a woman there's so many things like that which i can really relate to it is it is disheartening but also like what we really want to get across is this report is a springboard for further conversation for change

there's so many recommendations in the report um which I'd love to tell you about one of them the inclusivity rider um which is something I've had in my booking contract for a few years and what is that it's a clause in the contract where you say this artist is only going to play this gig if there's another woman trans or non-binary or a person of colour on the lineup and the reason we have this is this is going to by default make our lineups more diverse but the people who I think need to have this the most your David Getters your Calvin Harris's the big male artists who are at the top of their game who are often playing the lineups that are the least diverse if they had these clauses straight

away they will be bringing in more diversity and we will accelerate the rate of what we're trying to achieve. How much do you think that will work Nicola? I think it's a bit like a union so the more people that do it the more the established names and male names as Jackie just said do it I really think it will make a difference. Promoters want to book those big names. They're not going to say there isn't another David Guetta. There's another Calvin Harris. They can't just find someone else.

They are that they are the big guys in the industry. So if they're like, you know what, you need to book a more diverse lineup. If I'm the headliner, promoters are going to say, yeah, we'll do whatever you want. So that's one of the recommendations in the report. There are others. What are they yeah absolutely um i think another a big general one is just generally demystifying the dance music and the music industry generally obviously we can't you know pretend that the dance music exists within a vacuum it doesn't it's part of the wider music industry which obviously is a then reflection of society itself and i think there's

a lot of smoke and mirrors in the dance music industry, especially because a lot of it revolves around nightlife and live. So I think the more conversations like this that we have in public arenas, one-on-one conversations, conversations in boardrooms between artists and managers, all these really do make a difference and they do lead to action the more and more that they happen. Another one of the standout findings from this report i thought was that one percent of dance tracks played by the radio stations of the bbc kiss capital and heart are by women who feature as the only artist behind the track one percent so as a dj jaguar how much authority do you have in choosing the tracks that you play?

Is it even down to the DJs to improve this statistic, do you think? So it really depends, I suppose, on the type of radio show. For me, certainly, I do a specialist show on Radio 1 on Thursday nights. And that's all about playing brand new artists in the UK who make dance music. And for me, at the core of it, apart from playing up and coming artists, is to champion minorities. That's something I really pride myself on in the show. And yes, there are challenges trying to play as close to 50-50 of different genders in the show, because simply there is a lack of female and non-binary producers.

And seeing that stat really did upset me because it's really close to my heart. And I know a lot of broadcasters who I work with who are trying and you know we are we do need to all do better though because those stats simply are not good enough you might have heard but Beyonce's released a new album recently do you welcome an iconic artist like her um making a dance album do you think it could make an impact on the industry and the issues we're discussing I do um you know Beyonce is a legend I feel that many would agree but also I love that this record really feels like it it feels like dance music to the core and I love that she's worked with people like Honey Dijon on a couple of the records who is a black trans woman who at the top of her

game in dance music I love the Donna Summer reference towards the end of the album how Grace Jones just pops up on the track I think it kind of sums up dance music and if anything it opens it up to a wider audience and it's great to see a powerful strong woman like Beyonce at the face of it. Nicola how systematic is all these issues that we're talking about I mean how deep-rooted are they? They are pretty deep-rooted especially I think within when you're talking about roles and the diversity of people within the roles, especially in decision making roles in the live industry, I would say more than potentially things like labels, just because of how dance music is completely revolves around the live more than most other genres.

It comes out of the dance floor. It's played out in clubs and festivals all over the world um so i think that is um some of it is very deep rooted and isn't just going to change by things like airplay but it all makes a difference um and there have been some great um recent promotions and hiring in some of the live booking companies um which you know definitely have made a difference and are and definitely a lot of those people are part of our report and spoke to us and are obviously huge supporters of this cause now just before you go jaguar if listeners out there want to get involved with dance music and want to listen to female dance artists in particular, can you recommend some for us? Some artists? Yeah.

Absolutely. So you played earlier, Anne's, Jada G, Tisha, Eliza Rose, Amy L, Jeff Faye, Effie, Helena Stark. My goodness. There's loads. And can I also say, if anyone does want to read the report,

head to thejaguafoundation.net. You can download it. I would love for as many people to get their eyes on this i would love for as many men as possible to get their eyes on this i'd love for male djs to add the inclusivity rider to their contracts we can all do this stuff we all have to do it together thank you so much for coming on i've had fun having a little boogie thank you shoulder shimmy with you both jaguar and nicola Davis. Thank you for coming on Woman's Hour. Now, I just want to tell you about Listener Week as well, which begins on the 22nd of August.

It's the week when you're in charge and you decide the topics you want us to explore here on Woman's Hour. So what questions would you like to be answered and who would you like to answer them? You can contact us via the website. That's www.bbc.co.uk slash woman's hour you can text us as well on 84844 text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media it's at bbc woman's hour or you can email us at via our website as always now sam smith was the first and youngest woman to ever run a stock broken company in the UK and at the beginning of her career she often found herself the only woman in the room. She's now one of just nine female CEOs of companies in the FTSE 100 index and has just decided to step down from her role at the firm she founded FinCap Group PLC. Well before

her departure next month, she spoke to Andrea Catherwood about how things have changed for women since she started working in brokerage. They began by talking about what it was like for Sam to visit London commodity exchange floor when she was just 17 years old. I walked in and there was one lady in there. I remember one, it was all open outcry, everyone shouting about prices and running around. And as soon as I walked in, I got the whole wolf whistling, you know, very, very male, very sort of,

what are you doing here? All now you'd think utterly inappropriate, but then it was like, oh my God, what is this place? How did you cope? Well, I think I just thought, okay, well, I'm going to have to sort of get my um you know be a bit confident and be able to to chat and have the banter and they weren't no one was ever rude I didn't feel uncomfortable but it was just very very male heavy and now it would be utterly awful but back then 30 years ago it's like well I'm just

gonna have to you know be one of the boys and that was effectively what it was like for a very long time I was the only female in wherever meeting I was whatever dinner I was at whatever you know work place I was at I was generally the only girl for at least 10 years and you just had to get used to being the only woman in the room otherwise you couldn't have been in the room at all right I'm I'm not sure I even get used to it. It just, it was what it was. So I was just there. I was just doing it and just adapted to that environment. And actually, I quite like getting on with the guys. It just felt weirdly normal. You did very well because you became the CEO of your own company at just 33. Yes. Tell me how that happened. So after I joined J&FIN, which was straight out of KPMG, straight out of accountancy, I had 10 years of running

that division and building that division within a bigger company. And then after 10 years, we said, right, we really want to grow it. Can we have some equity in that business? Can we own some of it and make this journey worthwhile? And they said no. So we said, OK, let's buy it out. So me and the team bought out that business from our old parent company. And in 2007, I became the CEO. And that was sort of history. So it was never a planned thing.

I think we just wanted to grow something. We wanted to do something different in the space. In 07, it was a very competitive market. But what I saw as the difference was we really wanted to grow something, we wanted to do something different in the space. In 2007, it was a very competitive market, but what I saw as the difference was we really wanted to service clients in a different way and have some integrity about financial services. This was not long before the financial crash, so it was a time when there might not have been a lot of integrity around. It was two weeks, I think Northern Rock collapsed two weeks after we completed the buyout, so it was a bit of a hairy time but I wanted culture change and what I really wanted to achieve was how can we have a different way of working how can we treat people differently how can we create a really nice culture in what

was an industry financial analysis that's not known for culture and actually I believe inclusive culture is what leads to diversity not the other way around inclusive culture is what leads to diversity, not the other way around. Inclusive culture is just about making people feel included. You know, they want to turn up for work. They feel like they're a relevant person that has an opinion and a view and they're treated properly and they're valued. You said that that is what leads to diversity. I'm sure that as CEO, you had a human resources team. You weren't just in charge of hiring yourself. I was head of HR for about 10 years.

Really? Yes. So what did you do about women? Did you actively hire women? Did you hire the best person for the job? Did you find there were more women coming in behind you, possibly because you were there? It was more the latter. So we never had quotas.

I've always been a bit anti-quotas. But what we've done is we created this culture that was fun, it was fair, it was inclusive. And also because I was the female, so for the top, what happened was we started to attract different people. So when we started to measure it, which must have been at least seven or eight years

after the buyout, after I became CEO, we suddenly realised that we'd gone from 10% women at the beginning, we'd got to about 25%, but we were up to 40%. And it was only when I went to go and do a presentation on it, I said, oh, my God, we're 40% women. In financial services, that's quite unusual. And what positions were those women in? Because, of course, 40% women can mean lots of different things.

I mean, if they're all in very low-paid jobs, then that isn't as good. So we don't have a huge amount of low-paid jobs because most of the jobs are front office roles in the firm, so the majority aren't admin. There aren't loads of admin roles there. But, you know, there is a fairly heavy female contingent in the admin roles, but they were scattered all around the business. So we did have a problem at senior management team,

so we worked quite heavily on that to try and create a good split and we now are at 30% women on the management committee so that's good but that took a much longer time it was it was across the board we had some senior people running teams we had um i think we've now got 50 50 sales desk which is unheard of in the city. So it's mixed. You talk about the fact that it was a very male-dominated place when you arrived there. And often we say that there is and was discrimination for women, particularly in the city. But your success would lead me to think that perhaps you didn't experience that kind of discrimination when it came to actually career progression? It's a really funny question because to me, I didn't think I experienced it. So for me, I had the attitude of, okay, everything's going to be quite difficult. Getting to the top of anything is going to be quite difficult. So there are

numerous challenges about just trying to accelerate your career and do the job and grow the business so I think I just very much head down got on with it and treated everything as you know a challenge and you move through it now I look back I think were there issues where if I didn't have that attitude and that actually very much came from my mum and my grandpa who were very much you can do anything you know if you're why is that going to stop you so that was the attitude I luckily had. But I can imagine if you didn't have that confidence, many things that did happen might have put someone off. Like what? I think the first time I was on a board of a lot of men, I think it was the first woman on the board for about 50 years,

they just didn't listen to you. So, you know, you'd start talking and it was like, what are you doing? Or, you know, the amount of times you did get assumed to be the tea girl. But you again, you'd have to just prove yourself. OK, I'm going to keep making the point. But it was, you know, it's definitely not like it is now where you're taken much more seriously and it's almost like there's an open door. What have you been able to put in place at your company to actually support women? You mentioned that actually it was more difficult

to get women onto the senior management, into the senior management roles and onto the senior management board. What has it taken? To try and change it, I think it's so many things, it's not one thing and there's so many different things, but the culture is the most important. So do people want to come to work do they feel included and one of my examples I use is you know when companies say right we'll go to three four days a week you can be part-time if

you want you can leave at five o'clock to look after your kids but then everyone takes the mick out of you and you know you feel like that's not really acceptable. So that presenteeism is there where everybody else is actually in the office. So you have to believe it. You have to say, right, we believe it, which for me was about flexibility to the individual. So it's not just having good, flexible working policies. It's not just about good maternity leave. The most important thing for me is can you be flexible to the individual?

Can you talk to them about what their career journey looks like make sure they don't lose confidence at any point be there to support through the child journey through aging parents through the menopause all of you know all of those parts of a woman's career journey which cause you issues and may lead to you exiting you need to be supportive and quite flexible in your approach as an employer. Now you have an eight-year-old daughter, I believe. Yes, I do. And I wonder when she was born, were you able to take advantage of those maternity policies

that you'd set up? So weirdly, we were looking at the maternity policy just as I got pregnant. So I wasn't allowed to actually, now I look back and think, why was that? But I wasn't allowed to decide on our own maternity policy because I was pregnant and deemed to have a conflict, even though some other people on the board were men who had wives that were pregnant at the same time. So it's very bizarre. But it was very different for me. What I thought should be our maternity policy, which was broadly what we did implement, was not really as much as I needed it to be when I actually had a child. And for me, the first two years were very, very difficult. And there were certain points...

How long did you take off work? So I was out of the office for five months, but I was working for four of those five months at home. So one month, four weeks off? So one month properly off and four months working at home with help but because it was our year end it I just had a lot to do so I was probably working two-thirds of the time at home and being with Aoife so it wasn't much for maternity leave. Did you feel you could have taken longer or did you feel that there just wasn't there wasn't anyone else to do the job that you did? Why couldn't you have taken longer?

I didn't want to take longer. So at five months, I was desperate to get back in the office. I really wanted to get back. Five months was enough time for me. And that's obviously a personal decision. But what I preferred was having a staggered return. So what happened at five months, I went back. I wanted to go back, but it was very full on. I felt quite pressured to do the dinners, to go back to exactly how you were before. And that took me probably a couple of years to work out. That doesn't work because I can't work in the way I did before. I need to work differently.

I want to be there for my daughter, but I want to feel like I'm doing a good job. So I call it the guilt threshold that it took me a while to work out what was my guilt threshold for making sure I felt like a good mum. And I was giving my time when I needed to. And I felt like I was doing a good job. So that was hard. Are we saying that we should really try and change that CEO role so that more women are able to do it or indeed men who have more family commitments or is it simply that you you kind of can't do that job unless you are able to give up more? Well I changed it I did change the way I worked so for that two years was very very difficult

sort of adapting and thinking I had to do it like I did before but then I couldn't and I got an amazing coach who sat with me and said okay I'm going to make sure you can do as an effective job if not more effective but have more time and over the last five or six years I've managed to get to a position of I have been able to do my CEO job I think well I think I've been able to spend a lot of time with Aoife when I needed to I don't really miss anything that I want to go to at a school play or a school event. I try to miss very few. So I think the balance is there, but it just took me a while. And I think that learning was what I wanted to put back into the policies that we had of flexibility to make sure whenever someone is having that, I can't do it.

Because I certainly had three or four times thinking, I can't do this anymore. It's not possible. But you get through it and you adapt. But yes yes there should be a way you can be a CEO and be flexible to be a parent that that absolutely I think I proved it over the last five years I think it's possible. And yet you're leaving this really successful role now why is that? It basically is my baby you know I founded it from nothing and I absolutely love it I love all the people in it very proud of it but it has been hard we've done a lot of things at Fincap we had floated the business we've done an acquisition we've just recently bought into a sustainability consultancy

that sort of broadened our offering so I'd achieved a lot of the things I wanted to but it all really happened probably two months ago when I thought do you know what I'm really proud of this 24 years but I'm done I want more flexibility and I thought going into a downturn have I really got you know we've had two record years I've given it my all have I really got the energy to do this for five years in a recession with inflation where it is and all these issues and then we had the war it's, I don't think I've got another five years in me. So I need to go on a high when I can hand it to the right person. That was Sam Smith speaking to Andrea Catherwood.

And we've had a massive response to the women's football story we were talking about and young girls having access to playing in school. Maggie's got in touch to say, I've worked in primary education for over 20 years. Football has been in the curriculum for boys and girls throughout that time. Someone else has said my grandson's secondary school in Hertfordshire still does not offer football to girls but I think we need to start earlier in primary school. And someone from Manchester has got in touch to say my local school Plymouth Grove has girls and boys playing in mixed teams most days and they love it. But do continue to carry on getting in touch with us because we're probably going to be speaking about this in the coming days and weeks.

And it's not just England we're interested in. What's the picture like in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland too? You can tweet, you can text and you can email as always. Now, how many of you have felt the angst of watching your child move out of the family home? Well, our next guest went through just that. Last year, Juliet Pochin turned 50 and at the same time, her daughter left home for university. Juliet is a record producer who's worked with artists ranging from Alfie Bowe through to Harry Styles and even the London Symphony Orchestra as well. Now, she used her skill set to channel her experiences with a cabaret show.

It's called Music, Mayhem and a Mezzo. And Juliet will make her debut at the Edinburgh Fringe on Friday. Just tell us about the cabaret show and what inspired it. Yes. Well, as you said in your introduction, in the same month, I turned 50 and my daughter left home for university, which were both fine. Well, I thought they were fine. I thought I was really cool with it. But it turns out it affected me more than I'd anticipated. So I just thought I needed a new challenge. I needed to try something completely different.

I've got more time now to do that. And I actually, the first thing I did was jump out of a plane and I decided I didn't want to do that again. So the second thing I did was to put on a cabaret show in the West End and that's now much less frightening than jumping out of a plane. So I'm going to take that to Edinburgh and do it there as well. Well, brilliant that you channeled that energy into something positive. So what can we expect to hear in this show? Well, there's lots of satirical songs. There's comic songs. I'm also going to be doing some mashups where I take two different songs, often very contrasting, and I put them together and the audience has to guess both the songs.

And if they guess it right, they get a chocolate. So the catalyst, was it turning 50? I mean, did that really affect you more than you thought it would? In some ways. In other words, I've always wanted to do this I mean I used to be an opera singer before I was a record producer and I've sung at the Royal Albert Hall I've sung all over Europe I've sung in America and now I'm a record producer I'm always behind the screen I'm always behind the scenes and uh I think I just decided that I wanted to get out there and do something for me, just for me.

And I wanted to go back to maybe doing some performing as well. I wasn't happy for the next 20 years to sit behind a screen. I want to do something as well as the stuff I love doing. I love record producing. So I think it was kind of a combination of things and it was just the right timing, really. And one of the songs you sing about is your daughter leaving home for university. It seems like it was just the right timing, really. And one of the songs you sing about is your daughter leaving home for university.

It seems like it had a pretty big effect on you. Yeah, well, it's funny because I'm very busy with my work. I throw myself into my work. I've got a lot of friends. I'm very busy with social life. I really didn't think I think I think it was more that I was just surprised that it really affected me as I dropped her off at university. It's kind of like suddenly it was like a thump in the stomach and it came from nowhere and I sat in the car and sobbed. But, you know, it was weird, but I'm so proud of her. Just quickly, before we hear your performance,

you've got a party trick with a piano. I don't think we're going to try it here in the studio today, but please tell me about that. Yes, I play Happy Birthday lying on the floor with my hands crossed. Of course. Because why wouldn't you? I want to ask how you learnt you could do that? In my 20s.

That's enough. Enough said. Enough said. So you're going to perform for us now one of the songs in the cabaret show, the Menopause song. Yeah, it's called Why Am I So Hot? And I think after last week,

everybody knows what it's like to feel irritable, unable to sleep and hot and sweaty. Perimenopausal for ladies of my age. Thank you. Take it away. Okay. Why am I so hot? Why am I so hot? Why am I so hot? Why am I so hot?

This inner fire does nothing for me Why am I so hot? I'm dripping wet, but wet with sweat Why am I so hot? But I don't mean I'm feeling horny But I'll bite the head off anyone who blames the menopause Why am I so hot? I think I'm losing the plot

My tummy's getting plumper It's a bit of a mess down under I'm not getting any younger, this is true My brain seems to be slow, and where is my libido? Instead, it's no candido, no thank you. Why am I so hot? They say I'm being quite aggressive. Why am I so hot? If that's aggressive aggressive just you wait why am I so hot and I feel like a depressive so then why am I so reluctant just to blame the menopause I'm not happy with my lot I I'm just cross and very hot.

My bones will soon be brittle. My sleep at night is fickle. When I cough, I wee a little. This is true. And my facial hair's traumatic. My periods are erratic. And my mood swings are dramatic Well, who knew?

No wonder I'm so hot Irritable and bitchy No wonder I'm so hot And forgetful all the time No wonder I'm so hot And my vagina's dry and itchy. If men had this by now, they would have cured the menopause. Brilliant. Thank you so much for that, Juliet.

The lyrics are fantastic. And I think just what we need to hear on this Wednesday morning. Yeah, yeah, you'd love to hear about my... Thank you very much. Someone has texted in to say, you are fantastic. And I think just what we need to hear on this Wednesday morning. Yeah, yeah. You'd love to hear about my... Thank you very much. Someone has texted in to say, you are brilliant. I want to work for you. And you can see you,

see you performing at the Edinburgh Fringe from this Friday. From Friday. That's absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for coming in. Congratulations on your debut Edinburgh Fringe show. And that's just about all we've got time for on Woman's Hour today.

Please do continue to keep in touch about the girls' football situation in England, in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well, because it is something we will continue to talk about. Enjoy the rest of your morning. And that's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning

everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.