Woman's Hour - Eurovision entry Mae Muller, Director Raine Allen-Miller, Online bullying

Episode Date: March 10, 2023

Singer-songwriter Mae Muller has been announced as this year’s British entry for Eurovision, she joins Krupa to discuss how excited she is to represent the UK.Watch out Notting Hill, there is a new romantic comedy in town… and this time it’s set in Peckham. It’s called Rye Lane, and it stars David Jonsson and Vivian Oparah as Dom and Yas, two twenty-somethings who are both reeling from bad break-ups. It is the directorial debut of Raine Allen-Miller. She joins Krupa to discuss her journey into directing, her love of South London and how to make an unapologetically happy film.What would you do if someone accused you of bullying them online and it wasn’t true? Well that is what happened to online business consultant and anti-bullying campaigner Lisa Johnson and she has recently won her High Court fight and has been awarded £25,000 in damages. Lisa speaks to Krupa Padhy to tell her story, alongside Lia Perin, a solicitor at Taylor Hampton, a firm specialising in privacy and defamation law.Krupa is joined by Yvette Curtis, founder of Wave Wahines, to discuss her all female surf club.Activist Leila Hassan Howe began her fight for racial justice in the early 70s inspired by the Black Panthers in America. She was a founding member of the Race Today Collective, worked for the Institute of Race Relations and became editor of the Race Today journal in 1986. She joins Krupa to talk about her journey as an advocate for the black community and the launch of Race Today’s on-line archive, which makes accessible a crucial resource for exploring the recent history of Black and Asian protest in Britain.Presenter: Krupa Padhy Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, very good to have your company. I have an array of talent joining me on the programme this morning. Director Rainn Allen-Miller is here with me in the studio to talk about her new South London-based movie Rylane. And at the heart of this romantic comedy is the story of two young people getting over their exes and finding love again. I'm also looking forward to speaking to May Muller, the UK's entrant for the Eurovision Song Contest 2023.

Her track is called I Wrote a Song, all about getting revenge on her ex-boyfriend. Instead I wrote a song about how you did me wrong. I could have cried at home and spent the night alone. So in line with May's song and in line with the movie Rylane, I want to ask you about unconventional or creative ways in which you've gotten over an ex. Maybe you've sold your breakup baggage. Maybe you've got an empowering story or you've taken up a hobby you never thought you would.

You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we are at BBC Women's Hour. You can, of course, email us through our website or you can send us a WhatsApp message or voice note. That number is 03700 100 444. Also on the programme, the British editor Leela Hassan-Howell will tell us more about her journey as a race advocate

as her organisation launches an online archive exploring the history of black and Asian protest in the UK. And we're going to meet an anti-bullying campaigner who sued a rival businesswoman for libel when she made comments about her on Facebook. Lisa Johnson won her case. A legal expert will tell us what you can and cannot say online. But first, this week we learned that May Muller will be the UK's entrant for the Eurovision Song Contest 2023. It will be the first Eurovision Song Contest to be held in the UK for 25 years. And we are here to learn more about May's song.

It's called I Wrote a Song, a breakup song about her ex-boyfriend. And May is here with me now. Congratulations. Thank you so much. How are you feeling now the news is out honestly it feels like a big relief also because I've kind of been keeping it to myself as you know quite a few like two months now and I've just kind of wanted to shout about it so it's really nice to be able to do that now and everyone's been so supportive and it's just made me like even more excited to just be a part of this whole the whole

whirlwind of it all what's been the reaction from family and friends they're they're really supportive I did tell a few like I told my parents I had to tell someone I was like I'm sorry like I did keep the secret but I feel like mum and dad don't count you know and so I and so I told them and and um but I think just seeing the reaction, because obviously as a parent, you know, they have that worry and they just, you know, but seeing everyone be so supportive, I think it's like put them at ease a little bit now and they're just, everyone's been really nice. But some of my friends that didn't know, like messaged me like,

what? Where did this happen? What do you mean you're doing Eurovision? Like, huh? So it's all, it's been, it's, you know, a lot of it's been very positive. So it's very nice. Hopefully all of it. The tickets sold out in 36 minutes.

I mean, you're not just representing the UK, but it's the UK on UK soil. That must come with a lot of pressure. I think obviously it does come with pressure. You know, I want to do the UK proud. And I think historically, like Liverpool is pressure you know I want to do the UK proud and I think historically like Liverpool is such a musically like important place but I think obviously we are so excited to be hosting this year but it's really important not to forget that you know we are hosting on behalf of Ukraine and it's definitely their year just as much as ours and

you know if not more so. And I think Sam Ryder said it really, really, like in the perfect way. He said, you know, it's Ukraine's party. It's just at our house. So I think that's kind of how I'm looking at it. But obviously, I mean, I'm so excited that it's here. It just feels even more kind of monumental and exciting as someone who's lived in the UK all, you know, all their life. And the last time this came to the UK all you know all their life and the last time this came to the UK was 25 years ago and you weren't born this is all new to you and to us in

many ways I mean yeah it's so funny because obviously Eurovision is is a constant in so many people's lives but you know I've I've and I and I've watched it over the years but it's like you know it goes it goes way way back so I just think, I think I have grasped the kind of, like how iconic it is. But really, I don't think I could ever fully grasp it. Maybe when I'm there, I will know. I think that's what everyone keeps on telling me. They go, you're not going to understand until you're there. Like, it is wild.

So I'm just going to, I'm ready to get in the arena. Take it all in. Yeah. Soak up that atmosphere you know go slow yeah and you mentioned Sam Ryder there came second to Ukraine last year no pressure of course but hopefully this is the start of a new chapter of success for the UK yes I obviously you know I'm honored that you know Sam Ryder was the one to to pass me the baton but and and and and there is pressure but it's good pressure and I think as long as I go I love I love the song and it's it's it's you know it's a song that I wrote that

I'm really proud of and hopefully a lot of other people can can relate to it and it's all about being empowered and liberated and that's the main message I want to get across so if I if I get there and people watch it and after my performance they feel you know more more empowered than they did before then like I feel like I've done my job you've achieved something I've achieved something yeah yeah and on that song it's called I wrote a song very catchy a revenge song very personal to you yeah it is it is personal and I think do you know what rather than it being a revenge song I think it's almost more like when you're hurt about something whether it's a relationship whether it's a friend a family member just when you're coming from a place of pain

it is really easy to kind of go to that like I want revenge I want you know I want to do something I want them to feel the same way I'm feeling but instead of that I kind of thought how can I change this and turn it into a positive and how can I come out of this feeling empowered and that's kind of what I want people to take from it and I think it's about you know it's kind of like my form of of therapy yeah and I think everybody has those forms whether it's you know writing whether it's you know watching your favorite tv show whether it's going on a walk whatever it is I think it's picking those joys and what makes you feel good and what like nourishes your soul rather than giving in to that feeling of kind of anger anger yeah yeah yeah and it's not the first breakup song and we don't even like to use the

term breakup song now you've given us that lovely uh thought process behind your tracks but it's not the first breakup song um in which you've called out your ex-boyfriends do you know what I think you know I'm I'm I'm a girl growing up in London and and you for me I've I have to write about my experiences and my experiences are you know sometimes unfortunately but people you know you go through things in life and relationships and things happen and things change and things come to an end and I think that is my way of of of getting over it and and it like I said it's just like free therapy for me which I feel so lucky to have but I think I've definitely um yeah written about can I ask what your ex is or this the specific ex when it comes to this track that's

going forward to the Eurovision Song Contest what he makes of it if you know oh i mean i'm not sure i'm sure i'm sure he's probably feeling quite proud of himself to be honest inspiration yeah yeah i mean i'm you know hopefully he can i'm sure he can see that see the fun in it and i'm it's it's it's actually I think going to have quite a nice positive effect on people hopefully. Well we are asking here on Woman's Hour about your creative or unconventional ways of managing a breakup with an ex.

So we've had this message who said to get over my ex I moved to a remote village in the mountains 5,600 miles away where no one knew him and I could get that perspective on how the world keeps going on even when you've lost someone that seems central to your life and when I came home everything seemed easier thank you please you keep your messages coming in let's talk about your early life I believe you were a mere eight when you wrote well when you

started getting into music tell us about your musical journey. Yeah, I think I have always, I mean, I've always, this is probably going to sound a bit silly, but I've always just loved music. And when I was a kid, I really, truly believed that I loved music like more than anyone else could. And I just and I, you know, my parents, they love music, too. And I've grown up. My dad loves Prince and James Brown. And then I've also grown up listening to Simon Garfunkel, The Dixie Chicks. Just like obviously a very variety of artists. But just I think what they all have in common is they're great storytellers.

So I've always had that interest. And reading and writing was always quite fun for me as a child. So I think that those, those, all of that combined, it kind of just almost just felt like the most natural thing for me to do was to just write, write songs. And when I got a bit older, you know, I kind of like Lily Allen's like my hero. And, and I think just, I just loved her honesty and how genuine and authentic she was. And I, I kind of just wanted to do what she what she did. So she really kind of inspired me to to, you know, want to tell my stories, too, and tell it my way and not be afraid to, like, speak up.

Yet you didn't write your first song till you were 19. Well, yes. I mean, yeah, I say it was 19 when I released when I released a song because you know I mean there was tons of songs in the the diary from when I was like 10 like I love this boy he put up with me in the playground but but yeah it was 19 when I put my first song out into the into the world yes yes and then since then you know you've opened for little mix you've supported Liam Payne you've toured on your own how much do you think this has all gotten you ready for that big stage at Eurovision honestly I was saying earlier on I was saying you know everything just kind of feels like it was just all in preparation for this moment even though I didn't know it back

then but I feel like I've been you know I've worked really hard for a long time and I've I've I've been you know really really lucky to have those experiences you know 32 arena shows with Little Mix like that's probably as big you know practice you're gonna get for something like this I mean and to call it practice is sort of underselling it like that was a really amazing moment for me and I met so many amazing people and um you know I gained so many amazing like supporters from that and it was just really good experience and I felt like after that I was like I can do anything yeah I can do anything well I think Dee thought she could do anything because she's messaged us and said my ex owed me money after we broke up he was a guitarist and prized guitar. I still had a key to the house so one day after repeated requests

for him to pay me back had been ignored, I went round with a friend and kidnapped his guitar. I left a ransom note in the usual fashion using letters cut out of newspapers. I thought it was kind of funny.

It wasn't meant maliciously. He didn't see the funny side but at least he paid me back oh i bet he did inspiring conversation here may sometimes you've got to take it into your own hands and yeah yeah yeah she got her money back she certainly did um let's talk about staging at the eurovision because often it's not just the song that matters oh no it's all the glory around it what are you planning the song is just one you know very important but just one part of it and i think um it's we're sort of getting into like the nitty-gritty of it now

and we're working on you know the screens and the lights and the choreography and it's it's it's really really exciting i i can't give too much away which honestly kills me i'm always like i want to talk about it but it's gonna be just a celebration and it's going to be fun. It's going to be fun. I think it's going to be fun. I like your energy. Thank you so much for coming in. Thank you so much.

May Muller, we wish you all the best in Liverpool come May. Thank you. And hopefully we'll have you on again. Yes, please. That is May Muller, who is our Eurovision entrant this year for the Eurovision Song Contest. Thank you for joining us here on Women's Hour. Thank you. Right, next,

watch out Notting Hill. There is a new romantic comedy in town, and this time it is set in Peckham, South London. The name is called Rye Lane, named after an iconic road in the borough, and it stars David Johnson and

Vivian Oprah as Dom and yes they are two 20-somethings who are both reeling from bad breakups. It is vibrant, it is colourful and a lot of fun and you can watch it in cinemas from the 17th of March. The director Rain Allen Miller has been called one to watch in the film

industry and was picked as a screen star of Tomorrow in 2021 and she's just sat down to talk to me now. Welcome, Rain. Hello. Good to have you here. Tell us more about the film. The film's about two people that wander around South London

and goof out and kind of fall for each other, basically. Oh, no, spoiler alert. Sorry. I think goof out sums it out very well. It's a very simple storyline, but with a lot of depth, I feel. You've got your two lead actors, David Johnson and Vivian Oprah, so watchable. Great to see two young black actors in a positive, happy love story.

Was that important to you when you were casting? Yeah, it was really important. You know, black people also have fun. You know, our experience is wide and varied, and I felt it was really important to sort of represent us in a positive film. Yeah, it certainly was. It was laugh out loud. I really enjoyed it.

It reminded me, the authenticity, I have to say, reminded me of Desmond's back in the day. Oh, amazing. No one said that and that's made me very happy. That's what came to mind when I was watching it. and it's also been compared to Richard Linklater's 1995 romance Before Sunrise and instead of walking around Vienna Yas and Don they're walking around South London. What drew you to Peckham? Well it's not just Peckham it's it's South London you know. I'm originally from Manchester. I moved to London when I was 12.

You know, I lived in Brixton for my dad for a long time. And one of my fondest memories was going to Brixton market with my grandma. And she kind of did this sort of, you know, the Goodfellas restaurant scene tour of the market where she went, okay, this is where you get your jerk spice. This is where you get your plantain. This is where you get your Afro comb, you know? And it's an incredible place. South London is special and it deserves to be put on a plinth, you know? That was really important for me.

And that really came through. And this is your debut in the director's chair. How did that all come about? I don't know. I mean, hustle. That's how it came about it's one of those jobs you know that you you know for me growing up um you know I'm I was from Moss Side in Manchester was still am from Moss Side in Manchester a director seemed like

a job that you know people like me wouldn't really be able to do and but I kind of decided it was for me and hustled that's that's how it happened it's been quite a journey taking on various roles along the way yeah lots of different roles yeah yeah I basically just I think one of the biggest things with being creative or or you know getting a job in the creative industry is that you need to get paid to be able to pay the rent and so for me you know jobs in advertising were a really great segue into this um you know you can still get paid but you you get to dip your toe into sort of creative things like you know making ads being on shoots um and I am grateful for that actually

yeah but that true passion of yours to direct a movie never left you uh absolutely not yeah no yeah um in terms of the casting the language the band to the characters there is an authentic feel about them but in your opinion what is the scene that you are most proud of oh that's a really hard question to answer um i would say that the thing that i'm most proud of is capturing south london you know and and i would say as it stands, but it's changing rapidly. So, you know, Brixton Market, it's such an important place. And there's so much there that needs to be remembered if it does change. And so for me, it was about it was about encapsulating it and everything that's so wonderful about it.

And you said in the past, I'm not afraid of commercial, unapologetically entertaining films that people can enjoy. For you, it was simply that simple. It is that simple, you know. I love artsy films, but also some films you watch, you feel like you need a degree to understand them.

And I actually think that there's nothing wrong with things being commercial. It means that it's broad. It means that everybody can experience it and that's huge for me and weirdly you know the practice of advertising has taught me that speak to everyone why not and it's good you know it's a good thing if everybody can see see the world through your eyes it's an it's an absolute privilege yeah we don't want to give away too much but there is a cameo from an alice roncom star playing the owner of a restaurant that's called love go actually great name um how did that all come about i can't really remember like

i just know i was like look wouldn't it everyone's going to compare this film to like one of those films you know they're going to ask me about it so I'm just going to drop this in um and I remember I was talking to my partner about it at the time and I said to him I was like oh I really want to have like a little shop called like you know about a burrito something like that and he just went what about love guacchile um and now we're engaged there you go but um I just remember that that was one of the best moments ever when he just spat that out in seconds. It was genius. So big up Freddie Waters for that. So he planted the seed. And in terms of you as a woman of colour in the film industry, how's that experience been? It's been hard. You know, it's been hard. It's a really strange thing.

You know, early on in my career working in ad agencies where you're surrounded by white middle-class people and and that that you know it's it's difficult um I'm just looking forward to the day that I don't feel weird and and and you know and that's really interesting to explore further weird well actually to be honest that was that's not really how I felt I I've always felt other. And the thing that was so beautiful about Rye Lane was that, you know, when you direct something, you make the decision. So I was able to make the decision to work with incredibly talented people, by the way, and first and foremost.

But those people also just so happened to be of color, women, pregnant women. You know, I just want to work with people that are super talented. But I also do the research and make sure that those people, you know, represent me or represent people that aren't necessarily represented. And that's not to be sort of patronizing to them and go, oh, it's all about equal opportunity. So let's just shoehorn these people in. It's actually going, these people are talented and they have a different story and a different point of view and I'm really passionate about that who wants the same point of view I'm so bored of the same point of view you know um it's about being greedy I want new fresh ideas um and so you know if you

work with somebody that is pregnant and has experienced growing a baby they're going to have a really interesting point of view specifically Anna Rhodes my production designer um who did an amazing job you know um I think she was eight months pregnant when we were when we were doing the production um so yeah it's it's a really important thing to to diversify your team as a director yeah and talking about strong women can we talk about yes one of your main characters um she takes control in many ways of the situation that she finds herself in but almost well why don't you explain well I think I just think that it's it's actually quite simple

and it's one of those things where I was like, you know, and the writers as well, by the way, who Tom Melia and Nathan Bryan, you know, we work together on the script. And one of my biggest things was to, you know, to work together on Yazan and make sure that she basically was like representative of women. And, you know, by the way, oh, my gosh, shock horror. Women open doors. Women get the bill. Women cheat, lie, mess up. You know, by the way, oh, my gosh, shock horror, women open doors, women get the bill, women cheat, lie, mess up. You know, that's true. We're not all sort of like friendly people that hang out next to a really funny man that's going to like steal the show. And so for this film, it was about, you know, representing that and that that isn't hard to do if you know it and if you know the truth. And I think Vivian, you know, Vivian, once she was on board,

her and I just enjoyed going, what are we like? And what do we want to represent? And, you know, I think she did an incredible job of that. You know, she's a genius. She's incredible and completely different to Yaz. But I think, you know, the character, even if you're different to Yaz, you can kind of, you Yaz but but I think you know this the character even if you're different to Yaz you can kind of you understand her I think um she's she's just real she's real um and I really love to see real people in films she's real yet there's a sense of

fragility about her in many ways we talk about her strength but she's also very fragile in moments yeah exactly but but I think the strongest people are fragile, you know. Yeah, I think I think there's so much strength in being fragile and owning it. And I think she really does that. I think she sort of goes on that journey in this film in many ways. With your director's hat on, we have the Oscars this Sunday in fact and it is an all-male nominee selection what do you make of the lack of female directors up for those big awards um boring you know it's just boring I just you know I don't really know what else to say I'm so bored of of hearing from the same people I think it's boring um come on, like, sort it out is my response to that.

You know, it's a shame. Well, thank you so much, Alan Miller, for joining us here in our studio. Your movie, Rylane, it's out on the 17th of March. And yes, thank you for your time here on the programme. Thank you. Now, if you are a new mother who was recently given birth, we want to hear from you.

Women's Hour are looking for women who gave birth but were not allowed to use gas and air because of maternity unit suspensions. We want to hear about your experience. Were you warned in advance? Were you offered alternative pain relief? Did it change what you were expecting from childbirth? Please do get in touch in the usual ways. You can text Women's Hour. It's 84844. You can, of course, email us. That address is over on our website and on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour.

Some of you are getting in touch already about the creative and unconventional ways that you have dealt with the breakup of a relationship. Michelle writes, I stuck pins in a photograph of him and imagined him hobbling around in pain. After a few months, the photo was basically a mass of pinpricks and I felt better and my job was done. This one writes, after I broke up with my ex-boyfriend of five years,

I spent five days walking the Southwest coast path by myself carrying a huge backpack of all my stuff for the trip. I'd not done anything like it before and it was very hard work, but there were moments of pure elation as I focused purely on myself. Five years later, I've done multiple trips and hope to keep up the solo trips. And I've got a nine month old baby now and I'm daydreaming of my next one this summer. All the best to you and thank you to those of you who are getting in touch. Next, what would you do if someone accused you of bullying them online and it wasn't true? Well, that is what happened to online business consultant

and anti-bullying campaigner Lisa Johnson. She was called a bullying fraud in a Facebook post by Emma Hammond after the pair fell out over Emma's refusal to pay for a course she signed up to from Lisa's business. After months of trying to get her to apologise for the false accusations, Lisa decided to sue for libel. And she has just won her High Court fight and has been awarded £25,000 in damages, the maximum that could have been awarded. Lisa Johnson joins me now on the program thank you Lisa for joining us here on Women's Hour. Hi thanks for having me. Can you tell us how this all unfolded in a bit more detail? Yeah sure so as a business consultant I have lots of different courses online and one of them was a mastermind. And Emma came into the mastermind in 2020.

So it was a long time ago. And she came in. She did quite well for the first few months. You know, it was corresponding, seemed to be to be doing OK. And then suddenly we she kind of faltered, like we didn't see her as much on the calls. And so we checked in with her and she said she might be changing her business she doesn't know whether she's going to be in business anymore and obviously what we do is when people join a course they can pay over you know a certain amount of time because we want to make it affordable for people but what they can't do is just stop paying if they feel like it and she kind of wrote to us and said you know what what, I can't afford it anymore. But online, she was saying things that were very different. It looked

as if she could definitely afford it. And so we said, okay, well, you know, we have to go through our normal policy. So that will get taken to credit control and credit control got hold of that. And eventually went to small claims court and we won but I decided not to collect the money I thought I was a bit worried what if she didn't have enough money I don't want to be one of those people um that goes after people that can't afford it so I decided not to so even though we'd won I just left it at that and that's that's pretty much all that happened um I thought we'd left on okay terms she had complained that she didn't get what she wanted out of the course eventually. But I think that was just because it was another way to try and get some money back. So we just left it at that. And then 18 months later, and I guess

you could say she was a competitor online. She did the same kind of things that I did, but not exactly the same, which is why she was learning from me. And then 18, well, I don't even think it was 18 months later, I think it was probably about 14 months later, I actually was on the Orient Express with my husband for his 50th birthday. And, you know, we'd been going through a really tough time. And so I wanted to have this really special weekend. And then suddenly, I wake up at one o'clock in the morning to a hundred over a hundred messages on my phone um everybody's saying have you seen this I'm like what could have possibly happened like you know no one is upset with me right now and so I have a look and on Emma's Facebook page

she has written in capital letters I was bullied by the fraud and con artist Lisa Johnson and then goes on to explain in several paragraphs how she well just lots of lies basically saying things like I forced her to come into the program to the course I made her sign up for it even though I knew she couldn't afford it. The course had nothing in it. It was all fluff. So many things. I didn't help her, even though I knew that she was struggling with mental health. Like every single thing she'd said was a lie. And unfortunately, the first thing I did was second guess myself, as we do. And so I thought, well, no one would say this if there wasn't you know something what have

I forgotten that I've done and literally went through all this correspondence because there were 400 comments from people that are in my industry we share you know an audience online um she called me a bully on there and people were asking oh you know is it this one I'm putting pictures of me and you know some people were saying horrible really vicious by the sounds of it yeah yeah is it the big girl all of those kind of things and I got worried there was lots of angry faces and the first thing I did was just look at back at all our correspondence just to check if I'd missed something but I'd gone over and above for this person and you know I had made sure that I was signposting, posting

her to other places to help all different kinds of things. And so then I thought, well, what's happening here? Is she okay? So the first thing I did was write her, say just on messenger, hey, Emma, are you okay? I'm worried about you. This doesn't sound like you. You know, what can you just enlighten me to what I've done you know that the things you've written on there are lies um but I want to help you if I can tell me what I'm not seeing because she'd said in one of the threads that she'd tried to to kill herself because of me and you know that so you were genuinely worried and genuinely trying to do your bit she eventually did take the post down but but the damage was already done. No, she didn't. Oh, she didn't. Facebook did. No, she wouldn't take it down.

So I basically, when she didn't answer that message, I then thought, well, the only thing I can do is write on the actual post, which I hate doing because it inflames situations usually. But I just wrote on it and said, hey, none of this is true. You know this, Emma. Would you give me permission to put all our correspondence on this page so that people can make up their own minds rather than you making up all these lies she deleted my comment immediately and carried on and that was the first second that I knew she's doing this on purpose this isn't her being mistaken or anything this is an all-out attack um and then I didn't know what else to

do I kind of was crying in a corner um not thinking how is my business going to survive this there were so many people it had been shared 12 times into big business groups um and so the first thing I did was call a lawyer and say you know what can I do about this I'm really worried and he said to report it to Facebook. So I did. And eventually at 5pm, Facebook took the post down. But by then the damage had been done. And then how did you get to that position where you thought, you know what, I'm going to take legal action? Yeah, so I wasn't going to take any legal action. I just wanted to send a cease and desist, you know, just say, you know, stop doing this for whatever reason you're doing it. And then three days later, she started selling, she hadn't sold anything for a year,

she hadn't been on Facebook for a year, she suddenly started selling a program that was near enough a copy of mine, it was exactly the same. And so that made me realize, maybe she's doing this to get attention. Maybe she's doing it to get my audience. So like, maybe she's doing this to get attention maybe she's doing it to get my audience so like maybe she's doing for PR I just didn't know why she was doing it but I knew that she could do it again and you know lots of people were calling me potential clients were calling me is there any truth in this what really happened and I was having to explain something over and over again that didn't happen and people quite a lot think there's no smoke without fire so something must have happened but in this case there really hadn't been anything and

so you know I decided to have a look online and see if I could see a case had this been done before you know had somebody already bought a case to court yes in my industry on the online coaching kind of consulting industry and I couldn't see a single case and so you know of people like me not big businesses and so I thought well there needs to be one so if anybody's going to do it I'm going to do it because as soon as I put out there what happened to me so many people came forward saying this is happening that's really interesting and I want to pick up on that do you stay with us lisa i want to bring in leah listening to so leah perrin sorry is a solicitor at taylor hampton a firm specializing in privacy and defamation law thank you for joining us leah listening to lisa there she just said that she's

had so many people getting in touch with her, this has happened to me as well. What do you make of this case? Is it common that comments made on social media can lead to a court case? Well, I think it's increasingly common and actually a reflection of the evolution of technology. Whilst historically the ability and the means to publish information was concentrated in a very small number of wealthy press barons, the internet has made potential publishers of everyone. And despite this, social media users don't necessarily understand that their exercise of free speech is subject to the same restraints and responsibilities as editors of national newspapers. So activity on social media is ripe for potential disputes and ultimately litigation. That's really, really interesting. And in this case specifically,

I understand the judge granted the highest amount of damages possible. I mean, what does that say about the nature of this case? Well, actually, it's quite interesting. I think damages for defamation can run much higher. So into sort of the hundreds of thousands. But from what I understand from this case, when you issue a claim form, you can cap the claim depending on the amount of damages that you're claiming. So in Lisa's case, her claim would have been capped at £25,000. But what's really interesting about it is the judge actually said that potentially he would have awarded more damages if the case hadn't been capped at that level. So obviously, it means that the judge has taken this case incredibly seriously.

I think also the fact that the defendant did not engage with the process had a material impact on the damages awarded. Lisa, were you expecting such an outcome? No. If I'm honest, I knew that I would win the case because I didn't realise at the time. But actually, the proof is on her to prove I am a fraud. The proof isn't on me to prove I am not. And I had all of the evidence ready to kind of show that I hadn't done any of the things she'd said, which I didn't actually need. So I knew I would win because I knew I was telling the truth. But what I didn't expect is to get 100% of my costs also awarded because that's quite rare. Yeah. And Leah, turning back to you, a question that I imagine many of our listeners might be thinking, what can and can't you say about someone online? Where are those boundaries? expression and the protection of one's right to reputation. So it's entirely fact sensitive,

but in essence, if you make a statement that has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to an individual's reputation and cannot be defended by the defense of truth or honest opinion, then that would be considered defamatory. So in essence, I would avoid saying anything which will be published, especially to a large number of people, because that's a consideration that will cause harm to an individual's reputation that is not true and that is malicious. So, for example, it's not a genuine or honest belief that you hold. Really really interesting. Lisa I know that you have talked about your experience of bullying in the past I mean I imagine that what happened to you must have been quite triggering and considering that it must have been quite hard for you to take on this case.

It was hard as soon as it happened, it brought back all of the memories of being bullied at school. I was bullied really badly at school. And I'm an anti-bullying campaigner now. I'm an ambassador for a brilliant charity called Bullies Out. And, you know, I think that's why she used the word bully, because she knew the effect that would have on me because I've been bullied. So, yeah, it was hard. But as soon as people started talking to me in the industry saying, you know, we don't know anyone that's ever taken this to court. We don't think you can fight it. We don't think anything can be done. You know, clients were basically blackmailing people saying, if you don't give me refunds or if you don't give me this and that, I'm going to

put bad stuff all over social media. And so I wanted them to, I already have a large following. And I wanted people to be able to see that actually, you need to think twice before you put something online. And I knew I was best placed to do it. So even when it got hard, I pushed through because I knew that people in the future would maybe not have this happen to them just because of this case. And just expanding on what you've just said, what would you say, Lisa, to others who are facing a similar situation? I'd say the first thing to do is reach out to the person. I still think I did the right thing, even though she didn't engage, because sometimes, you know, it will be a misunderstanding. You will be able to sort it out. But if that doesn't happen, didn't engage. Because sometimes, you know, it will be a misunderstanding.

You will be able to sort it out. But if that doesn't happen, the first thing to do is, you know, get a lawyer on board and cease and desist. If you haven't got insurance, I didn't have insurance for legal. I wish I did. But if you haven't got insurance for that, get insurance for that as a business, because it's going to make things a lot easier. You know, if we're completely honest about it, we don't know if we will ever get that money back because it's a whole different process to actually get the money once you've won but that I wasn't in it for the money but for a smaller

business than mine you know 35,000 pounds cost is is not a small amount and Leah a similar question to you from a from a legal angle those who might not feel like they've got the confidence to even pick up the phone and call a lawyer, but they've been hugely offended and upset by comments online. What would you say to them? Well, I think I would mirror what Lisa has said. I think when something false or defamatory is written about you, it can be absolutely devastating. And it's important to remedy the situation as quickly as possible and also to protect you against future threats. So my advice would be don't suffer in silence. You know, do pick up the phone, speak to a solicitor who specializes in defamation. You can advise you as to as possible because of the rule of limitation. A claimant has one year from the publication date to bring a claim.

It is important to sort of take steps as quickly as possible. Thank you so much, Lisa Johnson there and Leah Perrin for joining us here on Women's Hour. We are well underway in picking the finalists for the Women's Hour Power List 2023 when we're looking for the UK's 30 most outstanding women in sport. One area that has been particularly interesting to us are those working at grassroots level. And whilst the list is being put together, we have one woman who's been put forward for consideration.

That is Yvette Curtis, founder of Wave Wahinez, here to talk us through the power of her Women and Girls Surf Club. Good to have you with us, Yvette. Good morning. Thank you so much. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Talk us through how this all came about? Well Wave Wahine started seven years ago now my eldest daughter at the time was 12 and she wanted to surf a little bit more and as a personal trainer I put a really high emphasis on having some kind of physical outlet and being sporty but surfing was something that I'd only ever done on my 30th birthday. So I had no idea how to teach her. So we had a look around at local sort of surf clubs and coaching. And it's quite an expensive sport to do sort of as a one on one type situation.

So nothing really sat with her that was quite comfortable. So I spoke to a couple of female coaches and one of the local surf schools. And they agreed to let us trial it for a year to see how it went um and yeah we've been here ever since it's so we just basically built it and and they came you know what was the problem Yvette with the existing clubs you found um I think most of them you had to have your own equipment um so wetsuits were expensive surfboards are expensive and you know and if the child doesn't like it then you've spent you know potentially or you've had to spend hundreds of pounds for something that they're not going to do again so there wasn't the option to to sort of borrow stuff and use it and and

they were all sort of people that had grown up surfing most of them were boys so it wasn't sort of the atmosphere that my 12 year old daughter who'd only been to a couple of lessons was really comfortable with and then creating this um club for women and girls only what's been the benefit of that having a club just for women and girls it has given them that space and that access point to, A, keep it affordable, as affordable as possible. We do keep it sort of £10 for our children and £15 for our women. And we have a bursary scheme in place for those that are going

through financial hardship to ensure that they can still participate. So it just creates a really lovely entry point, you know, especially in particular for our women's group. We designed that so that we would provide the women with the skills, the confidence and the connections to go out and surf for themselves. And, you know, many of our first cohort now surf regularly. They don't they don't come to the club anymore, which is, I guess, the whole point is to give them that stepping stone and ability and that confidence to go and do it for themselves and socially with our girls it's slightly different a lot of them come from different schools so it's a really sociable thing for them to meet friends

from other areas that they might not have normally met so I think for those girls they tend to just come every week all the time and and it's just, you know, it's just like an after school club, really. Yeah. Although you're in the sea on a surfboard doing something quite extreme, which sounds brilliant. Yvette, you've described the ocean as a force that can be used in healing trauma. Can you help us better understand that? Yeah, of course. I came across um an organization called groundswell community projects and they run surf therapy training so they coach you and how to how to coach others using the ocean and using um the beach sort of setting and that sort of water-based setting

to use it as a form of therapy so how you work in that open space rather than being within an office environment. And we then took that to North Devon against domestic abuse. And I asked them, you know, would you be interested in, you know, using this particular program with your women, and we'll fully fund it, we'll fund all the transport and do all of those things, because we had a sponsor on board, which was fantastic. And we took a group of six women and we surfed with them every week. We did our therapy sessions beforehand. We then sat down in circle afterwards and sort of analysed how the session had gone. And I think at the end of that sort of first cohort of women, we had women saying that we'd saved their lives. We'd allowed them to have a voice after them having their voice restricted through obviously their relationships and and sort of being those

survivors of domestic abuse um so it i mean that was just an incredible thing to be part of and we've run that several times throughout 2022 and 2021 but they're doing some tremendous work there i also know that you're working on matters of diversity within surfing as well yeah that's right um I think this is just something that I've kind of fallen into it was never I never set out to to be like a voice for anything or anyone in particular um I think it just happened during lockdown obviously the murder of George Floyd sort of triggered quite a lot of feelings from many people of colour within many industries and surfing was one of those and so naturally a lot of people then gravitated towards me to ask me for my opinion because basically I'm the only person of colour who runs a surf club in the UK and was actually willing to

talk about it. We then put a piece together about why it was such an underrepresented sport and it was such a white-dominated sport. That undercame quite a lot of fire, sadly, from the public and made me really re-evaluate, should I be talking about this? Do I have a right to talk about it? Because, you know, the massive disclaimer here is that I am still a terrible surfer after seven years of running this club. But I kind of think that's what sets us apart a little bit, about it because you know the massive disclaimer here is that I am still a terrible surfer after seven years of running this club but I kind of think that's what sets us apart a little bit is

you know we're not saying you have to be amazing to do it you're keeping it real everyone has a yeah everyone's got a space and and it is that it's so overused but it's so right that if you can't see it you can't be it and we've been really championing, you know, working with diverse ethnic communities. We work with our local Syrian displaced communities. So we ran two years worth of programs with Syrian refugee girls, which has just been wonderful. And, you know, and that obviously not only sort of ethnic diversity, that's cultural diversity. That was language barriers and, you know, the potential of trauma that they've lived through Yvette we wish you all the best with your project that's Yvette Curtis founder of

Wave Wahinez based in North Devon this message from a fellow surfer who says I am a surfer and have also done lots of other outdoor activities so great to hear about the girls surf club it is unbelievably male dominated though more girls have lessons than boys, there really isn't much progression. Thank you so much, Yvette. And like I said, all the very best with your project. Activist Leela Hassan Howe began her fight for racial justice in the early 70s, inspired by the Black Panthers in America. She was co-organiser of a 20,000 strong march against police racism

called the National Black People's Day of Action after the 1981 New Cross fire in which 13 young black people died. Her late partner, the journalist and activist, Darkus Howell, was one of the Mangrove Nine, a group of British black journalists, activists, sorry, tried for inciting a riot at a 1970 protest. The trial became the first judicial acknowledgement of behaviour motivated by institutional racism within the Metropolitan Police. Leela Hassan-Howe joins me now to talk about her journey and about her new project, the launch of Race Today's online archive, which makes Accessible a crucial resource for exploring the recent history of black and Asian protest in Britain. Thank you for your time, Leela. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Well, let's go back to the beginning of your journey. You were born in Britain, but then lived in Zanzibar until you were 16. Tell us about those early days. Well, my early days in Zanzibar, because I'm of a certain age, I actually lived under British colonialism. So when I lived in Zanzibar, Kenya, Tanzania, Zanzibar was still run by the British. So I saw the transition from what we called British rule to self-government. And so I lived in an era really where everything in the island in which I lived was governed by British society, British values and British politics. And how did that inform your

childhood? Well it informed, I wouldn't say so much informed my childhood as much informed my later understanding of the world because living through that and because my father was also a Pan-Africanist, very strong in his belief that Africa had to determine its own fate and its own future and was active with many of the politicians of that era. I understood the nature of colonialism, of British rule and of racism at a very, very early age, which later on really kind of shored me up for my future activity. Well, yes, because then you became an activist. Talk us through how that all came about. Well, I was working at the Institute of Race Relations at the time. The era we're talking about is an era of huge social movements in society.

The women's movement, the Vietnam War, and of course, the movement for colonial freedom, the anti-apartheid movement, and importantly for us, the struggle for civil rights and justice in America. And so it was a time of great debate, great ferment, wanting to understand the world in which we live, wanting to really change the world in which we live. And so when I was invited to join a black power organisation at the time, I said yes and joined the Black Unity and Freedom Party. And you've gone on to do various projects and initiatives since. You work with the Race Today Collective. Can you just explain what that is? So not currently.

The Race Today Collective ended in 1988. I'm currently working with the Darkest Hour Legacy Collective. But the Race Today Collective was a group of young people, really, children of immigrants, some immigrants themselves, Asians, West Indians, Africans, who formed a collective around a newspaper called Race Today, a magazine called Race Today, where we discuss the issues of the day and what we had to do to make it change. And that wasn't just about protest. It was also about the artistic movement, about the arts, the theatre, music, the books we were writing, all of which were about the immigrant experience

or the generation after the immigrant experience, and saying that we were entitled to equal rights and social justice within the UK, because at that time, we were not on the receiving end of that. Yes, and you are now launching an online archive of race today. Why do you think this is important? So this is an era of British history. I mean, people talk about black history, but this is British history. This is an era of British history which really has not been recognised until recently with some television programmes, one being the Mangrove Nine,

of which Darkest was portrayed. But until recently, the era between 74 to 88 to the early 90s, really it isn't discussed or it isn't known just how much we did ourselves to make change in Britain. Because change is at the moment currently discussed in the terms of individuals and individual achievement, this was a collective group of people who for 14 years published, demonstrated, organised, organised art exhibitions, published in order to make sure that our authentic voice was heard by Britain and that our demand for change

was taken seriously. Yeah. My parents actually arrived in the UK in the 60s and 70s, like you, from Tanzania when the British left. And they settled in a neighbourhood moments from the heart of Southall. And I've grown up, Leela, hearing snippets about the Southall riots against the National Front and the killing of Blair Peach in those riots. How important, in your opinion, is it for younger people to fully understand the struggles of their

older generations in this country? And what difference do you think that makes? I think it's important that we know our history. I mean, history in Britain and Britain's history is really lauded, applauded. Everybody is very proud of it. British people are very proud of their history. But we don't know our history. We don't know our history to the extent that we don't know what individuals and what collective action achieved in that era. And I think if younger people of this generation know that,

they know that we didn't suddenly come alive when Britain discovered us. We were alive. We came from countries that had huge struggles against colonialism, came here, did absolutely, in absolutely dire circumstances, and carved our way to where we are today, where there is a huge sense of achievement of what many in the Black, Asian, African communities have achieved in Britain today. So that history which isn't talked about or discussed in schools,

it's really important that it's known about. And as I've said, it's part of British history that up until now has really been overlooked. Within these archives, which sound like a hugely valuable resource, Leela, which women's movements can be found? So the women's movements of that era would be around shop floor struggles, around community struggles. So, of course, the Ugandan Asian women in imperial typewriters in 1974, their fight on the picket lines when they realised that they were not being paid the same as their white counterparts.

Bromwick, of course, which is probably better known. The nurses strikes of the early of this mid 70s people are talking about the nurses strikes now but at that stage Newpy which is now Unison was led by black women shop stewards and so I would point to that kind of collective way of organising and changing society that was really really prevalent in that era. Fast forward to today what do you think the legacy is of Black protest and resistance, those of the 70s and 80s, to what we are seeing unfold today? So I think we wouldn't see what we're seeing today if it wasn't for what happened in the 70s and 80s. I mean people, sorry, the 60s and 70s, because people, there's a bedrock there that existed already, there's a consciousness that existed already that we helped create. and so the struggles that we're seeing now are really just a continuation

of those issues there have been some changes in society nobody's going to deny that but there is still much to do and the recent eruption of protest and raising again that young black people and where we're placed within society is unacceptable to us and should be unacceptable to society, is still an issue that has galvanised people to protest today. When you look back on that march, Leela, that you helped organise back in 1981, the National Black People's Day of Action, did you realise what a pivotal moment that was going to be at the time? So at the time, I think because some of us were seasoned activists and Darkus, who you mentioned, and somebody called John DeRose,

who was very prominent at the time, had a sense that there had been a shift in the community, that there was a sense, there was a shift that although we had been involved in lots of movements and protests and had organised schools and all sorts of things in order to uplift our communities, we realised that the way people were talking, there was a feeling that this was not going to be accepted. So I think there was a feeling, given the hundreds of people that would come to the meetings, the militancy also that was being talked about,

that there was a shift in society, that something was leading up to this moment. But on the day, of course, it was just tremendous to believe that we would be able to, the committee that was organised would be able to mobilise 20,000 people to march for eight hours from the area to Hyde Park with the fervour and the passion all the way through was really something, of course, that I will never, ever forget and which I'm hoping when people understand the history more will realise was really the pivotal moment that it was. Fascinating talking to you, Leela Hassan-Howell there, joining us about the new archive that Race Today are launching. Just a few minutes or seconds, rather,

to talk you through some of the wonderful messages we've had in throughout the course of the programme. This one from Metadata, who writes, well done, Rain, can't wait to watch your film. That is Rye Lane. This one about how you deal with getting over an ex. What did I do to my ex? I put a mackerel in his airing cupboard behind the boiler and threw away every left shoe.

That is it from Woman's Hour. Do join us again for Weekend Woman's Hour. But thank you for your company this morning. Hello, I'm Brian Cox, and we are back for season 26 of The Infinite Monkey Cage. And we begin, where do we begin, Robin? We start in a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. It's Australia.

Oh, okay, Australia then. We start, it felt like a galaxy to me, but we were in Australia where we talked about, well, spiders. You were scared of spiders. I wasn't actually scared of spiders, but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say, I wasn't scared of spiders. Oh, we also did astronomy, actually, in Australia, which is fantastic. And then we came back to the UK

and we had guests like, well, Ross Noble, Susan Calman, Russell Kane, actually, in Australia, which is fantastic. And then we came back to the UK and we had guests like Ross Noble, Susan Calliman, Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Frye, Sue Black, Randa Munro, and we found out, amongst other things, how to commit the perfect murder, which still hasn't really worked for me because I'm still upset at him. Listen on BBC Sounds. What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it?

You've got that Robbie Ninson, Professor Cox I'd leave that poor pussy alone in its box What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it? I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.