Woman's Hour - Exercise aggression; Purity culture; The Plumage Act; Smacking

Episode Date: June 29, 2021

Sports psychologist Dr Josephine Perry has some insight into what makes athletes tick, but wasn't prepared for what happened to her yesterday morning when she was doing laps at a swimming pool. A man she had overtaken pulled her under water by her feet and held her down, before shouting at her. When she shared the incident on social media her timeline filled up with women saying similar things had happened to them.“Purity Culture” is a term used in conservative households that attempts to promote a biblical view of purity by discouraging dating and promoting virginity before marriage. Chloe speaks to two young women – Chrissie and Kirtika – about their own experiences of growing up in households that promoted purity culture.On Thursday it'll be 100 years since the Plumage Act banned the importation of feathers for use in hat-making. At its peak in the late 1800s, the trade in plumage was placing over 60 bird species at risk of extinction. But then a group of women, led by Emily Williamson, started a 30-year campaign to ban feathers from fashion. Beccy Speight from the RSPB is hoping a series of campaigns will bring Emily Williamson's achievements back to life. Attitudes towards corporal punishment have shifted significantly in recent decades, such that smacking is now banned in 59 countries around the world. That includes Scotland, where a smacking ban came in last year, and a similar ban is due to come into force in Wales in 2022. New research out today from University College London suggests England should follow their lead.Presenter: Chloe Tilley Producer: Frankie Tobi

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, thank you for joining me, Chloe Tilley, here on the Woman's Hour podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. The Children's Commissioner for England says self-isolation from schools must be scrapped as soon as possible, allowing children's lives to return to normal. Dame Rachel D'Souza warns of the trauma being inflicted on a generation of children. Almost a quarter of a million kids are off school in England today as the result of coming into close contact with someone with Covid. Just 9,000 children have tested positive.

Now that number has quadrupled in a week and figures out later today are expected to show a further rise. Now that means children are missing out on the fun end-of-year activities at schools. We're talking about proms, school trips, that socialisation that they've missed out on over the last 18 months. Also, for those children moving schools in September, transition days to their new schools have been cancelled. My daughter was meant to be doing her transition Zoom this morning because it was cancelled. I've literally just had a call 10 minutes ago saying there's an internet outage at the school.

So yet more disruption. And it also means that parents are having to find people to look after their children whilst they work. And of course, that burden often falls on mothers. Also this morning, we're going to be discussing smacking. After a review of 20 years of research concluded that smacking doesn't work. And far from deterring bad behaviour, it can often make it worse. Researchers found smacking children can lead to behavioural difficulties like aggression, violence, antisocial behaviour. So we want to hear your experiences this morning. Do you or have you smacked your children? Do you think it worked? Did you feel guilty afterwards?

Or actually, did you think, no, this was a moment of clarity or actually it was a moment when I lost control? You can text me now on 84844. You can also get in touch via social media. It's Woman's Hour at BBC Woman's Hour and you can email us, of course, through your website. And if you're happy for us to call you back, then please do leave your number.

We're also going to be talking about how a morning swim turned sinister yesterday for a sports psychologist who was dragged under the water and held there by a man that she'd overtaken during a lane swim. Now, she believes this was a result of a fragile male ego. She's going to tell us more about that in around 10 minutes. Plus, two women who grew up in a purity culture explain the impact it's had on their view of sex and of their own bodies after being told they must stay sexually pure until marriage. And it's almost 100 years on from the ban on the trade in feathers. And we're going to find out more about a woman called Emily Williamson. She campaigned so hard for the law change and in the process saved bird species from extinction, but is largely forgotten in history. We'll find out why later on. But let's begin by talking about official figures that show in England alone this month,

172,000 children were self-isolating, having potentially been in contact with a positive COVID case at school. The system of school bubbles where groups of pupils have to self-isolating, having potentially been in contact with a positive Covid case at school. The system of school bubbles, where groups of pupils have to self-isolate if one tests positive, could be scrapped in the autumn. Ministers are looking at the possibility of asking schools to introduce daily testing instead. Well, there's frustration amongst parents because this disruption has been caused by a rising number of children and their current households having to quarantine. One in four families are headed by a single parent. 90% of those are women. So for them, this has been particularly challenging. They're more likely to work in sectors that are worst

affected and to be on a lower income. So having to take time off unpaid with kids who are self isolating is, of course, difficult difficult if you're in this situation do get in touch with us this morning if your child is having to self-isolate has your grandchildren for example what impact has it had on them families and also relationships within families it's stressful isn't it particularly if parents are having to juggle work as well so you can text us now on 84844 or we're at bbc women on social media. Let's speak to Victoria Benson, Chief Executive of Gingerbread, a charity that supports single parents. Good morning, Victoria. Hello.

Have you seen an increase in parents coming to you and talking to you about this increase in children being isolated from school in recent weeks? We have. We saw a big increase last week, in fact, with people whose children were sent home from school being told to isolate. But of course, they couldn't work from home. So they were wondering what to do about their incomes and how to manage. And what's tricky is it appears anecdotally that different schools take different approaches to whether to close, for example, an entire school year or whether they just say, well, maybe there were these six or seven or eight children sitting around that child who tested positive. So we just send those out. So there's not even any way that parents can really plan.

No, there's no way you can plan. You can be told on the Monday that you've got sent by text and told not to send your children into school that day. And your employer's expecting you in work. And of course, you're kind of faced with an impossible juggling act, particularly if you're a single parent. Now, I know that you've got six children and you're a single parent yourself. I mean, I tip my hat to you for that alone. But tell me how, I mean, over the course of the whole pandemic, we're looking at, what, 18 months. How have you been affected personally by this and your children?

So we've just spent 10 days at at, what, 18 months. How have you been affected personally by this and your children? So we we've just spent 10 days at home isolating because my youngest child, who's nine, actually caught coronavirus. So I was at home with my four children. My eldest daughter couldn't come back because she was at university. So we spent 10 days isolating. And it's extremely tricky because, of course, I'm working a full time job. I've got two children who are still doing schoolwork and need my help. I had a sick child as well and I was doing it all alone. So no support from anybody else. And I'm lucky because I can work from home. I'm able to work from home and I continue to get paid. But still, you know, it's a huge struggle and it's very stressful.

It's a challenge. People already's and it's very stressful it's a challenge um people already getting in touch with us on 84844 one text here from a solo mama saying i'm having to do this today i won't be able to tune in as i've got a big meeting online with a potential new client child will be plugged into the ipad with headphones i'm concerned about kids catching covid and of course developing long covid but but think PCR testing should be used to return after seven rather than 10 days. I mean, we'll talk about solutions in a while, but it does leave parents in impossible situations. And are you finding anecdotally this is often falling? Well, the responsibility are on mothers.

Well, yes. I mean, the majority, 90% of single parents are mothers. And many, many single parents aren't in a position that they can work from home because they work in the kind of jobs where it's not possible to work at home. So, for example, we've had a person who works in a care home phoning us in the last week because their child was sent home from school. So they weren't able to go into work and they weren't going to get paid. They had to take unpaid leave, which, of course, is really, really difficult if you're already on a low income and your costs have gone up

because you're looking after your children. It's just not really possible to take unpaid leave every time your child is sent home from school. There is, of course, support available for parents, isn't there, in this situation? I know it's had a few problems in the initial stages, but just talk to us about what support people can get. So from February this year, which means for the majority of the pandemic, this wasn't available. If your child was sent home from school to isolate and you were told by the school that the child had to stay at home in certain conditions you

were eligible for a grant of 500 pounds and that is meant to help you where you can't go to work but it can be difficult sometimes to access the forms and fill them in and get them sent in and a delay in payment if you need that payment quickly that can be a challenge too yes so it's administered by the each local authority and of course they all do it differently there's very low awareness of this grant um but also there's there's quite a few conditions and we're finding that many single parents who've phoned our help line haven't been eligible for it um you you have to you know be on a low income and and fulfill all the conditions which in itself

makes it more challenging and if you're trying to look after the child at home as well and fill in forms you know it all adds to that stress doesn't it and i guess one thing that we mustn't forget as well is this is a time of year when children are meant to be having fun. It's coming to the end of the school year. Goodness me, it's been a difficult year for everybody, hasn't it? So for children who are being sent home now, they might miss out on things like, I don't know, proms, school trips, those situations that help their mental health, which has so suffered in the last year? I mean, my daughter's worried about Sports Day. She really enjoys Sports Day.

The parents all go to watch and she's really hoping that she gets to do it. So, you know, she's nine. It's a big event in her school calendar, Sports Day. Yeah, I mean, we've been told at the two schools my children go to that Sports Day will go ahead, but without parents watching. So they'll still get the experience, but obviously the parents won't be able to go there. But I think for parents that are going through this right now, the challenge is where do we go for September? Because this is the conversation. Obviously, the government has said, Sajid Javid stood up yesterday in the House of Commons and said, I will speak to Gavin Williamson, the Education Secretary. We will see what can be done. From the conversations you're having with parents and your own personal experience.

What do you think is the solution going forward from September when children start that new academic year? Yeah, I mean, I heard him say that and we all want to be back to normal and all of that. But for single parents, we're not back to normal because, you know, the risk of your, firstly, the risk of your child being sent home can have a huge impact on your income. So we do need more awareness of the Track and Trace grant. We do need more, need it to be easier to apply for. And, you know, for many people,

they're not able to go to work because the childcare doesn't exist either. So that's an additional worry for single parents. We've got summer coming up, lack of availability of summer play schemes, even if your child is able to leave the house. And that's going to have a big impact on working parents as well. Tell me what your last year has been like. I mean, you've said that you've just come out of isolation because your your youngest had Covid before that did you have to isolate often? Yeah so between September and Christmas my my children were at three different schools and each of them got sent

home with their bubbles and you know for me particularly with the youngest two having to home educate them and work it it was the biggest struggle. It was so stressful. As I say, I'm lucky I can work around them. But for many, you know, in that case, it means working longer hours and it's exhausting and it's relentless and you're doing it with no support from anybody else. So for me, it's been the toughest year juggling childcare, home education and work and doing it with no support. And the irony is, how long before COVID were we all worried about the amount of time our children spent online and in front of devices? And then the result through no one's fault has been they've had to sit in front of computer screens for long periods of time, whether it's

in interactive lessons or just filling out work. Yeah. I mean, I was sitting on a work meeting on a Zoom call and my daughter passed me a note that said, help me. And, you know, that's... Oh, it's heartbreaking. Well, listen, thank you ever so much, Victoria, for coming on and explaining to us, well,

the stories that single parents are telling you as Chief Executive of Gingerbread, but also your own personal experience victoria benson there do get in touch with us with how you're coping at the moment and your children and how you're juggling how you're you're finding the way through here it's 84844 um i've got one message here from lucy on twitter saying day five of my then six-year-old's isolation in december they tested her for a study she tested positive asymptomatically asymptomatically seven months later she still

has long Covid she has days she can't get to school seven teachers tested positive as did many other kids and many still have long Covid and I guess that is the flip side isn't it that's what it's about it's protecting people and trying to stop the spread let's bring in ruth now who has got in touch with us about her experience morning ruth tell us about your situation morning yeah thanks for having me son so and my situation is i've got four small children and three of which are at primary school and one's 18 months old and in recent weeks we've had two of them be sent home because of isolation and not because they've had covid or any covid symptoms but because someone in their bubble of 60

has had covid tested positive and it's been really really difficult because you know there's six and eight and I feel that there's so many issues as a result of it I work I work from home and I haven't been able to do my job effectively or properly and and the whole conversation is oh we're moving learning online but a six-year-old doesn't learn online so just as you said earlier with there's been loads of ipad times lots of time on tv and I think there's an assumption that everyone has a garden we don't have a garden we've a lovely home, but we haven't got a garden. So they're in the house all day

and they're not getting to do all the other things that they want to do. And my concern is really, I don't see how this situation will change unless it's a policy change, because I calculated that I'm probably in a bubble of about 200 children because of having four small children

and because of these large bubbles and because my husband's a primary school teacher so I feel that I just have a child at home all of the time and I think this time it's really impacted their mental well-being and because it feels very personal to them that someone in their bubble's got Covid and they're sent home so it's been so difficult and and my concern is the winter will look like this permanently because, you know, primary school children,

there's no discussion of them having vaccine. And I think most parents wouldn't be keen for their primary school children to have the vaccine. So how will we get out of this situation? Well, there was a suggestion,

wasn't there? And it's still being floated at the moment by the government that one solution could be daily lateral flow tests so if you do a lateral flow test at school and you are negative you can go into school and otherwise you can't i mean would you be happy with that could that be a solution well that that would be a potential solution and that's better than anything else that i've heard but it just seems absolutely

maddening the kind of way that we're working at the moment where you have a child being sent home to someone in a bubble of 60 and they're spending 10 days in isolation, which is a huge impact. And there's so much that they're missing. They're not doing all of their normal activities. So that has to be an option to look at. But I think that it feels that the whole country has just ignored the fact that there's lots of children missing lots of school time. So I think if you'd have said to people two years ago, your child's at home for a week and they're not going to do anything, people would have been in uproar. And it just feels like we've accepted now that children are just sat at home doing nothing for huge periods of time and you know and linked to that I had a text message from the school saying

under no circumstances you need to leave the house which doesn't take into account kind of what you were talking about earlier what about families that have got single parents how do I get my other children to school if I've got a six-year-old that's isolating I know parents on whatsapp groups that have had to keep all of their children at home because they can't get their other child into school because they've got a child that's isolated. So it's a massive problem and one with no solution on the horizon that I see. Ruth, thank you ever so much

for getting in touch with us this morning. I'm really grateful to you and I think everyone can feel the frustration and the difficulty that you and so many parents are going through. So thank you for coming on and articulating that to us this morning here on Woman's Hour.

If you want to share your experiences, if you want to come on the radio or text me, lots of messages coming in, it's 84844 or on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, sports psychologist Dr Josephine Perry has some insight into what makes athletes tick, but she wasn't prepared for what happened to her early yesterday morning when she was doing laps at a swimming pool. A man she'd overtaken pulled her under the water by her feet and held her down before shouting at her. When she shared that incident on social media, her timeline was filled up with women saying that similar things had happened to them. And I can be pleased to say that Josephine is with us now.

Morning, Josephine. Morning. This sounds utterly terrifying. Just take us through what happened. It was. So I was swimming. It was a guy who was much slower in the lane. I was overtaking him every six or seven laps regularly,

but I felt very safely. And at one point I felt my foot tapped, but there was nobody overtaking me so it felt a bit strange got to the other end of the lane tumble turned and then just stayed under the water as my feet were grabbed and I couldn't get back up to the surface to breathe and obviously as you're tumble turning you're you're desperately waiting for that breath so um I was really panicking kicked and kicked got back up to surface. And this guy had clearly sprinted down the lane to catch me and grab my feet because he wanted to communicate that he didn't like the way that I was overtaking him. Was he shouting? Was he aggressive? Was he calm?

He was just, he was quite aggressive. He just kept telling me I was ridiculous. I was ridiculous. And going over the same things that he wasn't slow, he was fast. He offered to race me, which kind of reminded me of a school playground. And I called over the lifeguard. They got the duty manager. But what can they physically pull out somebody from the pool that's behaving like that? They can't. So I had to leave because I couldn't risk swimming in that same lane with him. Could he tell that you were obviously shaken by this? Yeah, I think you must be able to. You don't hold somebody underwater and see that somebody's that upset and just carry on swimming. So what were other swimmers doing at this point? Did people come to your aid? No, actually.

I mean, it's not the first time I've seen pool rage at this pool. And I've seen pool rage in lots of areas. And I've had hundreds of messages with similar things. But I'm not sure. The guy's a big guy. I'm not sure anyone wants to get involved and kind of step in in that. You're pretty vulnerable when you're in a swimsuit. And that's the thing, isn't it? It's that vulnerability. So you took the decision to leave, but have you taken it up with the management at the pool?

Yeah. So I've spoken to the management. They are going to do an investigation. I've reported it to the police because I want to feel like I can go back there and it's safe. And hopefully that will that will do something. So you were clearly unhappy about this, but you put it on social media and you got quite a big reaction to this, didn't you? I think there were something like 2000 responses. And I have had emails and private messages and so many stories shared of women going through the same thing. Men being very supportive that they see this stuff happening and they hate it. And women saying, yeah, I can no longer go to my running club because I was continually pestered by a guy and nothing would be done about it. I've stopped swimming because

I just never felt safe. I got groped underwater and I've never been back to the pool. All these stories of feeling unsafe in a place where we should feel safe and we're just trying to do our exercise. As we speak, I've just seen one text which has come in saying, I've been kicked, I've been punched, I've been cajoled and shouted at from overtaking men in the local swimming pool. Then there's the men who will try and swim faster when I, as a woman, are overtaking. These are usually elderly men. I mean, with your psychologist's hat on, what's going on here, do you think? I can see that when we are in a sporting environment,

so some people will see swimming as purely exercise, other people may well see it as sport. And we do tend to get quite competitive if we're in that sporting environment. And so maybe that kicks in. But I guess I'm very lucky most of the men in my life are people that actually celebrate women doing brilliant things but but it's not the first time in that pool where I've had somebody upset that I was swimming faster than them I got told by actually an older guy

that um I was intimidating him by swimming too fast I'm like I'm in the fast lane what do you want me to do um and so I mean I got pulled up a little bit on this fragile male ego thing but but that's what it felt like that it was there was another guy swimming fast in my lane yesterday he wasn't grabbed and held under it was only me and so that meant that's what made me think this is a this is a female thing well that's what I wanted to ask you, whether you feel that that man would have done the same to another man or if you feel it was based on your sex. I can see you shaking your head.

Well, I'm a smaller ten stone woman. It's a lot easier to take your frustrations out on me than a larger guy. And so you just think it's easy pickings almost? Yeah. And if he was that upset and there was no issues with it, why couldn't he get out and speak to a lifeguard and get it dealt with officially rather than go down a violence route?

So have you, I mean, where are you feeling about this? Are you feeling that you can go swimming at this pool again? I went back this morning. My sports psychologist head told me that if I was working with a client, I would push them to go back soon, get it out the way. Otherwise it turns into like anticipatory anxiety. You have a long time of trying to wonder what to do. So it's like, I have to get it out the way otherwise it turns up it turns into like anticipatory anxiety you have long time of of trying to wonder what to do so it's like I have to get it out the way I have to go back um so I

did that this morning I was shaking walking in but I am very glad it's done and what's going to happen to him do you know no idea so the pool of say they have some CTV, they'll look at it. I would love him to be banned. I don't want anyone else to have to go through that. But we'll see what they do. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. I'm grateful to you, Dr. Josephine Perry there, who was pulled physically by a man under the water yesterday by her feet at her swimming pool because she'd overtaken him in a lap lane your experiences of uh well within exercise i mean clearly they're um being told that it's not just exclusive to swimming it can happen in other sports as well you can get in touch with us

84844 lots of you getting in touch with us talking about isolation for children the impact it's having on you katherine somerset says I'm a single parent whose secondary school children have both recently had to be at home due to COVID in their year groups. Personally, I support this despite the inconvenience and feel that it's eminently sensible given the potential impact of long COVID and the sharp rise of the Delta variant.

We are still in a global pandemic despite the push from the right for us to act as it's all over. Another one here, if I can get my computer screen to stop scrolling quite so quickly. There we go. From Camilla in Bedford, she says,

in my daughter's school of approximately 200 year 12s, she was all psyched up to do her mock A-levels this week that count towards her uni application evidence. She did one exam yesterday and then due to so many children self-isolating, the school have cancelled all the mocks today at the last minute, looking to set them up again for September. That is weeks of revision, prep, motivation dashed again for this year group and no real break over the summer as exams loom again for them instead of being able to make progress in June, July towards their futures. It's a massive impact on year 12. Camilla, thank you for getting in touch with us.

It's incredible, isn't it? The impact it's having on so many families in so many different ways. Do continue to keep those messages coming in. I'll read as many of them as I can over the course of the next 30 minutes. Now, I'm willing to bet that the majority of people listening this morning

will at some time or other have been smacked. Now, you might even have been on the receiving end of a cane or a slipper. But attitudes towards corporal punishment have shifted significantly in recent decades. Today, a review of 20 years of studies concludes that smacking doesn't improve children's behaviour. On the contrary, it makes it worse and it can be harmful. Well, the review was led by University College London and involved 69 global studies that follow children over time, mostly in the US. Well, smacking is banned in 62 countries around the world. That includes Scotland, where a smacking ban was introduced in November last year. And a similar ban is due to come into force in

Wales in 2022. In England, parents are allowed to smack their children under a reasonable chastisement defence under the Children's Act 2004. It allows smacking as part of a reasonable punishment as long as it doesn't leave a mark such as a bruise or a scratch. The question is, should England be following the lead of Scotland and Wales? That's certainly what this research would suggest. Let's speak to Dr Anya Haleman who is from UCL and is the lead author of the study. Good morning. Good morning.

Also with us is Simon Culvert who is a spokesperson for Be Reasonable, a group that campaigns against smacking bans. First of all if you could Dr Hal, just explain to us what your study looked at and the conclusions in greater depth. OK, so what we looked at, as you said, was 20 years of research, 69 studies that looked at the effects, the impacts of physical punishment on different child outcomes. And the one that has been studied most are behavioral problems that are directed outward. So things like aggression, rule breaking, hurting others. So those are the behaviors that probably physical punishment is meant to improve. But actually what we found was really overwhelming evidence

that it does the opposite. And what is important to say is that the studies that we included are all studies that followed the same children over time and controlled for initial levels of these behaviors. So it's not that we see these links because these were children who just had these behaviours in the first place. These effects were controlled for and over and above we see that these behaviours worsen over time in children that are physically punished. So it really achieves the opposite of what it is meant to achieve. Before I bring in Simon, can you give us what the definition was of a smack for the purposes of this study? Yes. So as you said, most of these studies come from the US, which use the term spanking. And that is understood as hitting

children with an open hand on the extremities or maybe the buttocks. Not all studies define the term smacking or spanking, but what we also did is we took great care to exclude studies that had in their definition of physical punishment things like hitting on the head, using an object, use terms such as beating. So we included that severe end of the spectrum so what we are talking about or what we looked at are these ways of spanking. So there's a quite a wide range there isn't there from a tap on a hand all the way through to using an implement

and maybe hitting someone around the head so it's a wide spectrum. Yes, there is. But what I'm saying is we excluded hitting on the head or using an object that was not included. So we're talking about what you might say or what you might call normative forms of physical punishment. Let's bring in Simon, because I introduced you, Simon, as being from a group that campaigns against smacking bannons. Just outline your position for us. Simon can you hear us the silence would suggest not we'll try and reconnect with simon and some people would say um anya that the importance of smacking is not so much the action of smacking it's providing a deterrent the fear of smacking did that come into your study at all um we didn't look at at the at the um intentions of parents but um if i i don't uh quite follow

the the idea why you would want to to instill fear in a child if you want the child to learn something i think the argument is it would be a deterrent so if a child if you want the child to learn something. I think the argument is it would be a deterrent so if a child felt it's one argument that is put forward that if a child felt that if they did something was wrong then they would be smacked they may therefore behave better to avoid the smack. Okay so but if that if that was the case if that if it would work that way then what we would see in the data would be that children who are physically punished are behaving better than those who are not. But we see the exact opposite and the evidence is really very clear. So those children that are physically punished are more likely to exhibit those behaviours that are unwanted.

I think we had Simon in the background joining us. Hi there, Simon. Hi. Sorry about that. Problems at our end. No problem. No problem. I was saying that I introduced you as from a group that is against smacking bans. So do you want to outline what your position is on smacking? Yeah. I mean, we think it should be up to parents.

And there's a line in this study which said that parents are not receiving or not believing the message that campaigners would like them to believe that smacking is harmful and useless. And there's a reason for that. And that's their own experience. Now, I mean, these stories come around about once every six months. Dr. Heimler, Professor Heimler, Elizabeth Gershoff, others who have a very, you know, clearly defined position, which they're entitled to. They believe that smacking is wrong. They think it should be outlawed. You know, we get a new paper published, another round of headlines telling us that, you know, parents who smack

are terrible people. And the fact is that people don't believe it because they know from their own experience, people who were smacked themselves as children by loving parents in strong relationships who know that their childhoods would not have been better if their parents had been criminalised for something as trivial as tapping them on the back of the hand or on the back of the legs to reinforce a lesson. We're getting lots of texts in. It might be worth responding to some of these. Simon, there's one here that I'm just looking at.

It says, I did smack. It was always about losing control. It stopped when they were too big. It's horrid, but it's true. And that is one argument that is put forward, isn't it? That if you smack, this is actually about a about losing control. It stopped when they were too big. It's horrid, but it's true. And that is one argument that is put forward, isn't it? That if you smack, this is actually about a parent losing control. It is one argument. And look, there's a lot that we can do to help parents

and to encourage them to use a range of techniques. But what I would say is, and I say this as respectfully as I can, please don't patronise all parents by telling them that they only ever smack because they lose control. This is part of the problem in this dialogue. To be fair, that was a view of a listener. Yes, and that's why I say as carefully as I can, let's not draw from that the conclusion that that's what all parents do

because it's not. And parents use a range of options. Many parents don't smack, many parents don't feel the need. Some parents find with the one child it's not necessary and with another child it is occasionally necessary. It should be left up to parents because you know scientists are marvellous and they can tell us many things but they can't tell us whether smacking should be a criminal offence and they've done that in Scotland and one of the first things the Scottish Government did was to issue a leaflet saying if you see a parent smacking a child, dial 999.

What a colossal waste of time for the police and the authorities who should be trying to help genuinely abused kids to be wasting their time investigating a family where there's nothing wrong except that mum tapped a toddler on the back of the legs. And how terrifying for that family, for that mother, to face a police investigation over something like that.

Because as you indicated, UK law is very clear that if a parent does anything which leaves any kind of mark, anything more than transient reddening of the skin, that's already illegal. And I think that most people think that's the right place to draw the line, not bringing trivial smacks within the ambit of the criminal law. Well, let's bring Anya back in on this. Anya, do you want to speak to Simon? Well, we are not looking at the intentions of parents. That's not what we looked at.

We looked at the outcomes for children and the data just disagree with you so we just see that children who have been physically punished have that increased risk of these behavioral difficulties so it just doesn't work it doesn't work and in the best case it does nothing but in many cases it does harm So I don't know why we would... But there are other scientists who take a different view, of course. I don't know why parents would want to continue with a practice that doesn't work. And I think parents want to have that information. And previous generations didn't have that information. But now we know, now we have that evidence and now we can act on that. And children deserve that protection.

They deserve the same protection from hitting, from violence that adults have. Let me read you some text messages that were coming in and then Simon, by all means, do respond. One here says from Susan, I got the slipper over the front desk for not knowing what nine times seven was. I soon learnt my tables and I love maths.

I was seven years old. We need it in classrooms now for discipline so that pupils can learn. John, on the other hand, says hitting children teaches them a lesson that you use violence

to get your way, not a lesson we should be teaching children. I wonder, Simon, if you can see if there can be an alternative to smacking. If, for example,

a child has been badly behaved, would it be more appropriate to say, I'll take a device off you, or you can't go to football club after school and actually take things away so that they can think about the consequences of their actions, rather than if they've just been hit, it hurts, and then they move on? Yeah, of course. I mean, just let me quickly say, there are, of course, scientists who take a different view from from Anya Heilman. So it's not like, you know, all the science is on one side on this. And yes, as I tried to indicate, you know, parents have good parents have a range of things that they can use to help bring up their kids.

Some of those good parents occasionally decide that tapping a child on the back of the hand is the right thing to do in a particular situation. And you shouldn't make them criminal for doing that. We can't, you know, allow the sort of narrative that the parents who do that are bad parents. We can't claim that the science has proved that it should be a criminal offence because science can't prove that. As I say, you look at, you know, the former president of the British Psychological Society, Tommy Mackay, Professor Ellie Lee from Kent, other people, other academics, you know, will take a different view of what the science tells us. Could you give us an example of when you think it would be appropriate for a parent to smack a child?

Because you've said there's obviously a range of tools available to parents. So when do you think it would be an appropriate incident to smack a child? Well, I mean, that's up to parents to decide. But if a child takes something that belongs to another child, if that's something that the parent has been working on with the child, they've been explaining to them why you shouldn't do that. They've been trying to use other methods to try and help the child to understand that that's a bad thing to do to another person. That parent might conclude, right, on this occasion, and they probably would tell them, explain what's going to happen, tap them on the back of the hand, they give them a hug.

And this is the experience of parents today. And it's the experience of us, many of us, when we were kids, of our own parents. And so I come back to the point that we can have a difference of opinion about when and where to smack or whether you should smack at all and that's that's a legitimate debate we absolutely should encourage parents to be patient with their children to explain things to their children the way they can understand to try and enter into the way their child sees the world so that they might better understand why a child behaves in a certain way um you know there are lots of things that we can talk about isn't there a danger you're

teaching them violence isn't there a danger you're teaching them violence if you if you hit them that they could then go and teaching theft by taking away their mobile phone i mean children and but to be fair simon that's not theft is it if you clearly say to somebody i'm going to take away your phone or your device because you can't use it tonight, so you'll get it back tomorrow, but you can't have it now because of this. That's not theft.

Theft is permanently taking it away. But are you not teaching somebody that if you don't get your own way, violence is the way forward? Well, if you were right about that, then every one of us who was smacked as a child should have turned into a violent adult who uses violence to get our way. But we didn't. We understood what our parents meant by it. And we

understood it, hopefully, in the context of a warm, loving parental relationship. Look, there are all kinds of problems that families face today, all kinds of pressures. And yes, there are some parents who make some terrible decisions. But what Anya Harlow wants to do is she wants the criminal law to be brought to bear on a particular parenting technique that she disagrees with. And that's not the answer. You asked people not to talk on behalf of parents. I don't think it's fair that you talk on behalf of Anya because Anya is here to speak for herself. But thank you for your time today. That's Simon Colvert, who's a spokesperson for Be Reasonable, a group that campaigns against smacking bans. We also heard from Dr. Anya Harman from UCL, who's the lead author of that study. Lots of your messages

coming in on this one here. On 84844, I smacked my three girls on some occasions after clear warnings for blatant defiance under the age of six. It was an extremely useful extra tool in parenting and I would advocate it. It must be done in a calm way and prevents escalation and improves future behaviour. I have a very close relationship with my daughters who are now in their 30s

and Penny has also got in touch with us. She says, I'm now 76 and deeply regret that I often smacked my children. It caused a great deal of damage to our relationship.

We now have a good rapport as friends and as granny, but I so wish I could undo the hurt and lack of trust and emotional security that I caused them. I was a single parent in the 70s with two small girls, had left my daughter's father due to his abuse. The eldest was not an easy child, and I thought of her as naughty. I've since spent over 30 years working with people

who are on the autistic spectrum and recognise that she probably has Asperger's. She was diagnosed with BPD and because she's a highly intelligent woman with ASC, it wasn't picked up at the time. It took a long time for me to really acknowledge the damage I caused to her. I don't entirely blame myself as I was a single working mum with depression and felt alone and unsupported. And in the 70s, people weren't shocked at smacking children. Since then, with counselling, education and listening to my girls. Penny, thank you so much for being really honest there with your experiences and do keep them coming on social media. We are at BBC Woman's Hour. Now, are you familiar with the term purity

culture? It's a lifestyle that discourages dating and promotes virginity before marriage. Purity culture can be found across all religions. Both men and women are expected to remain sexually pure. But advocates of extreme abstinence advise women to be submissive. Well, I spoke to two young women, Chrissy and Katika, about their own experiences. First, Katika told me how she would define purity culture. I definitely would define it as a culture that puts the blame on women for men's, like men's desires. A lot of the purity culture in itself is kind of defined mainly, I think,

through American culture eyes, through evangelicals. I think that's where the term actually originated. But I think, like, you know, a lot of the ideas that go into that are, you know, abstaining from sex from marriage, often dressing modestly and things like that. But I think with that, you can bring purity culture into many more cultures and societies

rather than, I think, sometimes just seeing it as, with those two definitions, maybe even devoting, you know, their lives to God or something is stopping it from being seen in a lot of different cultures. And for you Chrissy, what does it, what's it mean for you? The gendered aspects and the way that it framed kind of women as responsible I think is really central and I think in this format it's where kind of relationships and sex and marriage become an overwhelming point of focus within the religious context so this idea of sexual purity becomes a massive deal not having sex becomes the most important thing in someone's life so Katika mentioned the kind of abstinence until marriage that sexual ethic and i think within purity culture it takes that ethic which is quite common in a lot of a lot of religions

um especially in christianity um and it takes that and builds lots of different cultural practices around it um so you have things like people wearing purity rings um that are symbolic of waiting until marriage or signing pledges uh in america you had things like people wearing purity rings that are symbolic of waiting until marriage or signing pledges. In America, you had things like purity balls and rallies where people would attend and make these pledges. But I think more broadly, it's the kind of underlying idea of sexual purity that becomes really central and kind of a really overwhelming point of focus in someone's life. So for you, Chrississie when you were growing up give us examples of the things that what were you told? So I think in the British format purity

culture is a lot more muted so I never signed a purity pledge or wore a ring but I was definitely told to wait until marriage for sex I think that's quite common in Christian communities. But there are wider messages around kind of women's bodies being inherently sexual and women being responsible for kind of gatekeeping male temptation. So, for example, I was told things like boys will be boys. Men are very visual creatures, kind of making them not very responsible for their own behavior um i had friends who were told to cover up their bodies um the implication being it was a risk for male temptation um not even wearing provocative clothes um just things like you know a crop top because it was it was a hot day um and and things like there's something called the billy graham rule um which is where

um a man won't be alone with a woman who's not his wife um and that was presented in different formats sometimes it was uh being told to stay a certain physical distance away from someone of the other sex so for example the width of a bible stay the width of a Bible away. So things, there are messages like that and kind of boundaries around male-female relationships, kind of grasping for boundaries to enable this idea of sexual purity. And for you, Katika, just give us some examples of your upbringing and what your parents told you about how you had to behave. Well, I'm speaking from a South Asian immigrant perspective. So I would definitely say that there are a lot of things that were quite clear were very different from my American peers. For one thing, you know, you're not really supposed to hang out with boys at all when you're like at

a certain age, especially growing up, you're not really supposed to have male friends. You're not ever supposed to really have a boyfriend. It's mainly about maintaining the reputation of your family. So a lot of the things I said, my parents said to me actually were, what will people say? So certain things you just couldn't do. You shouldn't, you know, dress too immodestly. You shouldn't, you know, again, hang out with boys in case someone sees you. Participating in things that were seen as indecent, even if they were just, you know, regular run-of-the-mill things that my American friends would do would be seen as, like, looked down upon. I was allowed to receive sexual education in middle school, but I know tons of South Asians who were not unfortunately and Indian culture and stuff doesn't like never talks about sex or even simple bodily processes like periods you know like I wasn't really supposed to talk about my period

and it was such a like a hush-hush conversation in my family which is just interesting because it's just something that you know every single biological female has to deal with. But also incredibly difficult, isn't it? Because it's quite confusing, isn't it? When you start your periods and you're at an age where your body is changing. How did that make you view yourself and view your body? Yeah, like when I first had my period, I had no idea what was happening. I just thought I was like bleeding. Like it was a very, very scary experience at that moment. And I just I didn't know what was going on. So without having that sexual education before, I was, you know, body, like, moving forward. Even, like, once I learned more about it, it always felt like something dirty, something unclean, and that does shape how I

viewed my body for a while. Like, I didn't really understand what was going on with me during puberty as well, so, like, it just makes you view your body in a more, you know, unhealthy light. It just, you don't appreciate your body for doing the things it's meant to be doing. You rather kind of resent it and, you know, loathe it, maybe. That's quite a strong word, isn't it? Loathe your body. I just wonder, Chrissy, what about you?

How did you view yourself and your body? I do relate to that kind of being, you know, 13, 14, when you're already having to go through puberty, your body? I do relate to that kind of being you know 13 14 when you're already having to go through puberty your body is changing and you're already as a woman having to deal with often unrealistic beauty standards as well so when you add to the mixed messages that are swirling around about purity culture and women's bodies that start to chart value in a certain way. I think there was definitely this mind-body dualism and there was a link between bodies that was just inherently bad, I think, particularly for female bodies.

I picked upon the notions that a naked body is bad, especially a woman's naked body, not even if it's being seen by someone else, just in and of itself. So for me, it was a difficult relationship with my body. And I think that some of the religious kind of messages around purity culture kind of contributed to that. Just the level of shame about being an embodied person, I think, was very difficult.

And so what did that mean, Chrissie, for your idea of sex as you were growing up and as you became a young woman what did you think about that? I think really it was seen as inherently negative um within purity culture it's a very sex negative culture um and it's seen as something that's everyone's just furiously trying to kind of delay or make sure you're not doing. So within that context, there isn't really space for you to see it in a positive way. And I know that some people, for example, follow all of the rules, wait until marriage and then have found themselves having difficulties with sex once they're married because they've internalised a lot of these messages.

And I think that's really significant in indicating that um the the culture is very kind of sex negative and and that's how it's framed what about you Katika how did you view sex as you were growing up well I kind of viewed it as like a necessary evil almost um especially growing up like you're not really told sex is something good it's something that you do to sex is something good it's something that you do to have children um and it's something that I knew that I would not participate in if you know as like a teen or child it was something just so looked down upon you know women who participated in sex willingly um were still seen as so as so indecent as so on so dirty and um it just it kind of a lot of, I think, comes from marriage as well.

So it's like, if you aren't a virgin when you're at the marrying age, you won't be, you know, married to a nice guy. You'll be married off to a guy who's not that nice. It wasn't something that I could take pleasure in. It wasn't something that could be seen in a healthy light. It was just something that I had to just accept when I was of, you know, when I got married. So what kind of long-term effect has that had on you and your sex life? Well, it definitely makes me have to unlearn a lot of things. Like I realize now that like I have these kind of first judgments about people or like women even um like you know even you can call it slut shaming just like first judgments of like oh seeing a woman

constantly participating in sex and my immediate thought is like something bad it's like oh this like woman's not a good woman or something but that's my first judgment about it and I have to realize like no step back and rethink why you're like re-examine why you're thinking that way um so I have been having to do a lot of unlearning I have to you know say to myself that participating in sex is not a bad thing it's something that is part of a healthy lifestyle. And it's, you know, it's not just a necessary evil. Well, that was Chrissy. You also heard from Katika there, two women who grew up in a purity culture.

Now, the fashion industry has come under fire for its ethics for a long time. Today, we talk about poverty wages, child exploitation, and the environmental cost of fast fashion. But scroll back 130 years and the discussion was all about hats, or be precise, hats adorned with exotic feathers and in some cases whole dead birds. It was all a rage for wealthy and working women and unsurprisingly had a

devastating effect on bird populations. That is until one woman, Emily Williamson, took the lead in trying to have the trade in feathers banned. Well, on Thursday, it'll be 100 years since the Plumage Act was passed. And here to tell us about that and Emily Williamson is Becky Spate, who's the CEO of the RSPB. Morning there, Becky. Morning. So tell us, give us an insight into how much feathers were part of fashion back then. Yeah, so it was big news. So if you think about those huge picture hats

that women used to wear in Victorian times, they would be literally covered in dead birds and feathers, all dyed, multitudes of colours. And, you know, it was thought that there were kind of five million kind of birds being killed in America every year to kind of feed this obsession. And at one stage, I think, you know, a kind of ounce of egret feathers was worth twice what an ounce of gold was I mean it was this huge industry

and it was kind of rich women wearing these very exotic birds and then even poorer women would wear kind of things like dyed starling wings and so on which we find kind of pretty abhorrent today and that's partly because of the work of organisations like the RSPB. We've changed our minds about how we feel. And these women who were around at the foundation of the RSPB, including Emily, you know, caused that really, caused that change of heart. Well, let's talk about Emily, because she's a woman who's almost been lost to history. Very few people know much about her, but she was an extraordinary woman. Yes. So she was particularly keen on a bird called the crested grebe. She was really worried

it was going to go extinct. There were 61 birds at risk of extinction because of this trade. She wasn't allowed to join the British Ornithologists Union because they were all men and wouldn't let her in. And so she started having gatherings at her house, which was the Society for the Protection of Birds. And at the same time down in London, a woman called Eliza Phillips was meeting with another woman called Etta Lemon. And they were kind of called the fur, fin and feather folk. And they were doing similar work. And they all came together to eventually get their royal charter and become the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. And so it was the three of them, really, with the help of the Duchess of Portland, who became their first president, who really drove through this amazing piece of legislation, which came through 100 years ago.

Why did it take so long for the Plumage Act to come through? It was the best part of 30 years, wasn't it? Yeah, well, there were a lot of vested interests. It was a massive industry. You know, a lot of people were making money out of it. And that was part of the reason. I think it was delayed by the First World War. So that caused delays as well. There were all sorts of frustrations along the way. But its final kind of emergence as an act really helped kind of reduce the trade considerably. It didn't it didn't completely do everything they wanted it to do. Originally, they felt a bit disappointed, I think, at the time. But actually, it was the beginning of the end for that trade.

And hence, these 61 species saved from extinction, basically. And that work is the work that we carry on today. It's interesting, isn't it? When you look at the timeline, Emily was fighting for change in protecting birds. But it was also at a time when women were fighting for the right to vote. I guess it's just another example of women making their voices heard. Absolutely. But it was also at a time when women were fighting for the right to vote. I guess it's just another example of women making their voices heard. Absolutely. But interestingly, I mean, Etta Lemon, one of the leaders for the RSPB was very anti-suffrage. So she was from a very conservative background. She didn't think suffrage was a good idea. But of course, in the meantime, she was spearheading this whole movement. And I think one of the things that they did do is they learned from some of the sort of suffragette tactics. So some of their campaigning, which finally got the act

through, was much more kind of in your face than it had been in the past. They learned from some of those tactics. I think they used to hire men to walk with sandwich boards, telling this terrible story of the death of these beautiful birds. And that really helped kind of propel the act into success, I think. So they really learned from those tactics. And looking at the things that the RSPB is working on today, what are the real threats right now? So the threats to kind of birds now are, of course, much more complex and we understand them much more. So things like climate change, causing reductions in food and habitat, things like kind of intensive agriculture policy, kind of driving loss of land for birds, pollution and pesticide use, just human development. There are all these factors working against birds now. We know we've lost 40 million birds in the UK over the last 50 years.

So the trajectories are not good, but we do know what we have to do in order to improve things which is to tackle climate change and to kind of generate a more nature positive world really which means changes to our our economy and our agriculture systems at a top level but also changes to protect really threatened species like the curly for example in the uk at the moment so working at that individual level as well becky it's great to speak to you thank you so much for your time today becky spate there who's the ce of the RSPB. So many of your messages coming in. Chelsea on Instagram says, I'm at home with my child who's out of school this week. He's eight. I'm working at home, but it's such a nightmare. Yesterday I had so many meetings. He spent most of the day watching TV. I need to help him with his schoolwork and I'm struggling not to lose my

temper with his constant questions, which is not OK. Thank you for all of your messages. Do keep them coming in and I'll be back with you at the same time tomorrow here on Woman's Hour at 10am. Hi, I'm Matthew Side and I'd like to invite you to see the world differently with my podcast Sideways. Those societies and social networks begin to act as a brain, a collective brain unto itself. Sideways is all about the ideas that shape our lives. And in this series, I'll get to grips with the myth of mind control. This is your subliminal programming tape on smoking control. He is what I would consider to be a quack charlatan.

And I'll find out why it's so hard to be original. For all this and more, subscribe to Sideways on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.