Woman's Hour - Exploring Teenage Mental Health - our series continues

Episode Date: June 24, 2019

Third in our series about teenage mental health. So far we’ve talked to doctors and teachers, today we hear from the parents. 75% of mental health problems start before a child reaches their 18th birthday. How do parents or carers cope when their child develops an issue and they find themselves trying to help find solutions to really complex or upsetting problems? Catherine Carr reports. Britain’s Domestic abuse charities have got together this morning to issue a joint statement about the importance of taking action if you’re worried about someone’s safety. Jane speaks to Sarah Green, co-director of End Violence Against Women to explain why.The Brexit Party won 29 seats in last month’s European elections taking nearly a third of all votes cast. Eight of those MEPs are women and we’re joined by two of them. Belinda De Lucy was elected for the East of England region and June Mummery for the South East. With the opening session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg next week we talk to them about why they personally decided to stand and what they hope to do in their new role. Presenter: Jane Garvey Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Sarah Green Interviewed Guest: Belinda De Lucy Interviewed Guest: June Mummery Reporter: Catherine Carr

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast, Monday the 24th of June 2019. Today you can hear from two new Brexit Party MEPs and we'll talk too to the parents of people whose children are going through a mental health crisis in the next of our features about the really important issue of a mental health crisis in the next of our features about the really important issue of teenage mental health and by the way on that subject on Wednesday of this week you can hear from teenagers themselves and Friday's entire programme will be about this subject and

we'll have a panel of expert guests so if you have any questions you can get them in via the website ahead of Friday morning's live edition of the programme. So let's start with the fact that Britain's domestic abuse charities got together this morning to issue a joint statement about the importance of taking action if you're worried about somebody's safety. Now, all this was inspired by the many conversations and newspaper articles and radio phone-ins over the course of the weekend after the police were called on Friday night to the flat shared in London by Boris Johnson and his partner Carrie Simmons. So let me read the statement jointly issued by our domestic abuse charities in Britain and then you can hear from Sarah Green, director of the organisation End Violence Against Women Coalition.

Here's their statement. The weekend has been full of comment about the relationship we Violence Against Women Coalition. Here's their statement. The weekend has been full of comment about the relationship we have with our neighbours. It's not for us to judge what happens in anyone's relationship, but it's for all of us to take action if we're concerned about somebody's safety. That's a natural human instinct. Let's support it rather than challenge it. Don't walk on by if you're worried ask if they're okay tell somebody call the police so i asked sarah green of end violence against women coalition

what had inspired the organizations to get together and issue this statement we felt we had to put this together and get it out because there's been some frankly disgraceful commentary over the whole weekend trying to say that these people are nosy neighbours, they shouldn't have bothered, and also using language trying to minimise what might have been happening when nobody knows truly what is happening behind closed doors. When we are looking at our whole community response to domestic abuse, it can never be just the police, that we just leave it to the police to sort out problems and to intervene when there's serious violence. It's got to be about all of us. And we've spent many, many years trying to get the message out that it

is important to keep an eye out for your neighbours. It is important to not take the risk and to call the police if you're worried that something serious is happening. Perhaps make a check yourself if you don't feel threatened and call the police if something is escalating. All right, let's go back to what you've seen and heard over the weekend then in the circumstances surrounding the conversations about what happened, which everyone has been talking about. Which are the attitudes you want to call out? What are the things you're most worried about? Well, very quickly from when the news story appeared on Friday, we could see some other elected people and commentators rushing to, first of all, to minimise what might have been happening. To, for example, choose language like to say this is a tiff or this is something unimportant that doesn't matter. And then follow that up by saying it's no one else's business.

It's not something a neighbour should intervene on. What kind of nosy neighbour gets involved in something like this? And then through the weekend, there have been lots of articles in the newspapers and online which are now quite horribly trying to trash the neighbours who made the call as individuals. All of this commentary is clearly politically aligned because of who it's about it follows what was already happening on friday when we had the incident with um another mp mark field who um quite roughly removed an environmentalist from and he's been suspended hasn't he's been from a dinner where he has been suspended but what we already saw on friday was a kind of um

people lining up according to their political position and how where they sit on the political spectrum either to defend him or to say that he needed to be dealt with and to condemn him and the same thing has happened around this story this is deeply deeply worrying because we've spent many years trying to get the message out about how important it is to take domestic abuse seriously it's it is very important that all of us feel empowered and not self-conscious or threatened about making a call. And your worry is this will have put the whole cause back by a decade. It does. The shaming of the neighbours is horrible.

The attempt to minimise what may have happened when no one knows truly what was happening in that flat. But we do know that the police decided there was no need to take any action. We can be certain of that, at least in this instance. We can. We can. But the rush then to say that what the neighbours did was wrong is irresponsible, is horrible and needs to be challenged. And that's why we've put our statement out today. On the whole, where do reports of these sorts of incidents come from?

Do they come from victims or alleged victims or do they come actually more often than not from concerned neighbours, relatives or passers-by? So we're talking about a huge volume of incidents. There's about a million calls to the police every year about domestic abuse and a very large number of those are from neighbours and other concerned people. It's by no means just victims making the call. I've heard an estimate of around half and half neighbours and actual victims. These calls are important because they're often repeat calls. They enable the police when they're doing their job properly to flag a household as one where there really may be a serious problem and you need to attend at speed. And neighbours calls are also very important in

prosecutions because we still face with this crime sometimes the defence that he said and she said and we just can't know the truth. But actually, neighbours' testimony sometimes goes on to be very important in court. So it is very important that we all take our responsibility to those who live near us, even when we live very separate and quite anonymised lives now, some of us. It's very important we take this seriously and take our responsibility seriously. And, you know, for goodness goodness sake in an incident like this not to go around um criticizing and trashing those who actually took a responsible action there's also i suppose it's not dissimilar to an incident

where you might be worried that a child is being neglected or is being treated cruelly i know we've discussed that on this program and um i think many of us might have been there in the past. And we've worried about if we're the person who makes the call, first of all, might we be identified and find ourselves in the firing line? Absolutely. People will worry very deeply about being the one to make an accusation about bad treatments of a child. For example, it feels a very, very serious thing to allege. And similarly, domestic abuse is there isn't it with if I make the allegation that's a extremely serious thing to say about that those people's relationship and will it be known that it's me if for example if you are sharing flats and there's two four six

of you in the same building it's likely that the the person might infer that you were the one to make the call you can make calls anonymously it's important if you're concerned that you were the one to make the call. You can make calls anonymously. It's important if you're concerned that you do so. And I would just advise anybody listening, if you're worried, take your fears seriously. A lot of us have really good intuition about when something is not quite right. If you're able to reach out to a person who might be in danger, be it a neighbour or a friend,

just find a subtle way of letting them know you're there. When it's friends, we've advised people before to offer to do things like keep keys or spare money for them or let them know that you're a place that they can come to. This work that we've been doing for decades now of reassuring people that it's okay to be alert and to reach out and to make the call if you have to is really, really important. It is everybody's business and this stuff thrives when it's left behind closed doors thank you very much for coming in and you made a real effort i know to get here today so we are very grateful thank you sarah green director of end violence

against women coalition your thoughts on that at bbc women's hour of course on social media now the brexit party did well in the european elections month, won 29 seats, taking nearly a third of all the votes cast. Now, eight of the Brexit Party's new MEPs are women, and two of them are going to talk to us right now. Belinda De Lucy is one of the MEPs elected for the southeast of England. Good morning to you. And June Mummery was one of the MEPs elected for the east of England, and June is in our studio in Norwich. June, good morning to you. Good morning, Jane. Good morning, Belinda. So you're both heading off for the opening session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg next week.

Now, June, I think you've already been there once, haven't you? Is that right? No, I have been to Brussels before when I was lobbying for electric fishing. I see. So you haven't ever been to Strasbourg? No, I haven't. So have you had any contact with the people who are going to be working alongside you in your new role? No, no. Belinda and I have been to Brussels the week before last and felt the water and we're getting ready to be MEPs. What did you think of the water? Well, not the great water. We stepped our toe in and I can tell you there's a big shark coming along and a biter off.

Would you not agree, Belinda? I did feel very uncomfortable being there just for so many years. Well, you're both in an opposition. I mean, you've got a job you don't want, representing a party that doesn't want either of you to be there because they don't want us to be there at all. How would you defend that, Belinda, actually, first of all? Well, we have one policy and people are incredibly concerned

that the Brexit vote is not being implemented and want a party to represent the 17.4 million people who want the referendum result honoured. And that's what we're doing. We're focused on using our platform to put pressure on Parliament and on the next Prime Minister to see Brexit through once and for all. And hopefully we don't have to vote on it again. So you're going to be there for what? The best part of July. Is that correct?

Yes. Yes. We're going to go to Strasbourg twice in July. So for about eight days. And then you go to Brussels. Then we go to Brussels. Yes. And then it's the summer holiday.

Yeah. And then what happens? Then we start again in September. And some of us will go to committee meetings on various areas. June, I know, we'll be attending the fishing committee and we will be going there with the message that Brexit must be implemented. But we're also going there with a message to say to our European friends, Brexit wasn't a rejection of Europe or Europeans. It was just a rejection of the political institutions of the EU and were very keen on remaining friendly.

Were you a member of any other political party before this? The Conservative Party. You were a Conservative, yeah, and you felt the Conservative Party hadn't delivered. I also felt it had abandoned its voters and treated its Leave voters rather badly. June, what about you? Is this your first time in a political party? No, I also was a member of the Conservative Party and the east of England where I'm from, we'd been forgotten, ignored. Government was like the kings and queens and we were the sorry people. And when we didn't leave in March, something had to be done. And obviously, when Nigel Farage gave me a call

to come and see him and have an interview, yeah, we had to move forward with the Brexit party. So what is it about the European Union, about membership of the European Union, June, that you really feel is holding Britain back? Well, for me, it's fishing, obviously. I mean, 80% of our fish is taken by the EU. The EU are to blame as well as past and present government.

And, Jane, it's our back garden. And basically, we want it back. We've got a chance now to rejuvenate coastal communities that are deprived. How? By taking the fish back. I mean, for example, I was spearheaded two years ago by rodney anderson the ex-director of defra um and we now have a feasibility in in tune at the moment we've had two meetings well the first meeting which was about three weeks ago 220 million pounds

worth of fish was caught just off my coastline, east near Lowestoft. £220 million. And the UK caught £9 million worth of fish from that. It's ridiculous, Jane. So, I mean, in really simple terms, June, they're taking our fish. Yes, they're taking our fish. They've been allowed to electric pulse fish, which is banned in China.

I mean, we've lobbied hard for that. So I don't want to, well, we need to simplify it actually, obviously for the benefit of many of our listeners who are not experts in this. The gist of it seems to be, June, we played by the rules in terms of the fishing industry and they didn't. Is that fair?

That's fair. I mean, that's in the past. Come October the 31st, we have got a chance. We're so close, Jane, I can't tell you. Forgive me, Jane, a chance to do what? To take back control of our industry, to take the fish back as our waters are fish. We can then rejuvenate coastal communities and rule we're an island.

What other country would give away its ocean? But overfishing is a massive problem, isn't it? And doesn't the EU have a duty to make fishing sustainable? There's a lot of fish out there, Jane. Well, there aren't, are there? Well, no, because the Dutch have just absolutely raped it. Like I just said, there's electric fishing, 84 big pulse trawlers up and down our coastline

just taking all the fish. It's not what they've caught, Jane, as well as what they've killed. So once we take back control, we will say who and who comes into our waters. We're not saying that we won't share stocks. We will still work with France, Spain and the Dutch. But that will be on our terms and we will make the rules. Well, apart from, I mean, clearly you feel very passionate about this, June, and I know this is not by any means a new thing

for you. This has been your life's work. But Belinda, this whole idea of taking back control and you have the one policy, you've said it yourself, the Brexit Party's got one policy. If you're serious about this party being a proper political force in the UK. It's got to have more than one policy. What, for example, do you think Brexit Party might do about knife crime or social care? There's just a couple of things. Well, until our official policies are publicly announced, I can't say. But we are meeting together. You can't say that you don't know.

Well, because we haven't published it yet. Well, is that, and you haven't published them because you don't know? No, we have had lots of meetings with our MEPs actually especially with and we all have different opinions but we have a lot of common ground when it comes to common sense and sitting with people from the left and the right and the centre and the Brexit party is so diverse especially across the political spectrum it's incredible. Well. I mean, you say diverse. With the greatest respect, you were both former members of the Conservative Party.

We have Claire Fox and other left-wing MEP members. We have obviously Anne Whittaker on the other side. And it's fascinating being among, I think, such a great representative of the British political debate. And I've learned so much getting out of my Conservative echo chamber. And I think it's fantastic that there's finally a party

that brings the left and right together. And we do have different opinions, but we are working out domestic policy together. And it's a very exciting time. It's an incredibly positive party, and I'm really happy to be here. I know you make much of your children, and why wouldn't you? It's wonderful. You've got four young children, I think. Four daughters. Four daughters.

Four daughters. And you feel very passionate about, well, actually you tell me, is it protecting their right to vote? Just tell me more. Yes, so from my point of view, I feel that for a healthy and peaceful society, we need to be as close to those who make laws

that we are governed under and those that spend our taxes as possible. And I think historically that's worked best at having a very strong and flourishing democracy. I do not see membership of the EU enhancing that. I see membership of the EU as diluting democracy. OK, how? Is there something that has a decision made in either Strasbourg or Brussels

that you feel is directly or will directly negatively impact your daughter's chances? Well, it's interesting you put it like that because for me it's based a lot on principle and of who, you know, Tony Benn had those wonderful five questions on democracy. What power have you got? Where did you get it from? And whose interest do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? And how can we get rid of you? And when you ask those questions to say the EU Commission or the EU Council, you get very concerning answers. Belinda, let's look at the way our next Prime Minister is going to be chosen. I don't have a vote in that 99.9

percent of our listeners i'm certainly not saying our parliament is perfect but it's definitely more accountable to the people and closer to home and i think they're more representative of british interests than than the remote way laws are are made forgive me i haven't heard a concrete example of something right i don't i don't believe, well, I believe that the UK is better at for example making its own tariffs to suit the British customers. We're talking about your children's prospects. So when they go to the ballot box and they put

the cross on the ballot paper about who they want to govern them, I think that the MPs can often say, you know, my hands are tied, I can't actually change this, I can't actually help the over-regulationps can often say you know my hands are tied i can't actually change this i can't actually help the over regulation of small businesses you know that's an eu matter i can't actually help um the fact that wages are being decreased um that's a freedom of movement issue

i can't uh help the way you're paying for moroccan oranges at a 16 tariff to protect the spanish farmers i can't do anything about that. There is another side to this. Your daughters at the moment, I'm sure they're highly intelligent young people, they at the moment have the right, or will have the right when they're older, to live and work in 27 member states of the European Union. And they still will be able to live and work in those.

Not quite so easily, Belinda. Well, maybe it will take a two-minute online form. Who knows? But they will still be able to live and work across Europe as Americans do, as Australians do. And my point is, I've got to look into my daughter's eyes when they turn 18 and say it is worth you voting, going to the ballot box. Your vote will be respected. You will have power and control as much as you can of the people who make laws over you. And that's important to me.

June, just a quick question to you. When is it that people in Britain will feel the benefit of leaving the European Union? We don't want it just to be bearable, because for all this to be worth anything, it's got to be better. And I don't really want the example of the fishing industry, because we've heard about your passion for that. What else is Brexit going to offer the rest of us?

Brexit, first of all, will be the biggest thing that the people will get is democracy, Jane. They'll feel that they've been listened to. I've got a theory with anything, Jane, is this. A man and woman, what they basically want in their life is to leave school, get a job, fall in love, get married and live happily ever after. Now, the average man or woman, that's all they want, Jane. They want to go and earn a living, pay their bills, own their house, rent a house, and what... But to what extent is Britain's membership of the European

Union stopping that happening? Yeah, because they've taken that right from the majority of this country. They have, Jane. We've lost lots of business. Let's not talk about car industry. Let's not talk about the fishing industry. There's other industries. 95% of business, Jane, is the dog groomer, the hairdresser, the fishmonger, the greengrocer.

I don't hear Britain's dog groomers begging for mercy. They seem to be doing fine at the moment. No, they voted to leave the small business. The dog groomers of Britain will be in touch. They want their democracy back, Jane. They want to make up their own rules and regulations in our country. And when you said to Belinda, my daughter works offshore, she's an engineer. She's just got back from Australia where she's worked for the last two years. It takes her 24 hours to apply

for a visa. Off she goes. No big deal. I cannot get my head around these people say, oh, we can't work in the EU. Well, we can. We can work there. We always, what did we do 40 years ago? We will be better off, Jane. There's great times ahead. We must be positive. So what are we going to do when we leave? We've got our lives back. We've got democracy

back in this country, which is what we fought for. June, thank you. Just while you're an MEP, presumably you're obviously paid in that role. Yes. Do you get a pension? No, I don't think we will. We won't be there long.

Three months, we won't be getting a pension. Jane, we're leaving on October 31st. Boris Johnson has told us we're out. We can't wait. Sky's the limit. A quick word from you, Belinda. Well, I'm very excited about the fact that so many of our electorate are so now engaged and hopeful that Brexit is finally going to be delivered.

We're going to put as much pressure as we can on the new prime minister, whoever it may be, to see our vote through. We're going to be watching them like hawks and we're part of a very positive political movement to change politics for good. Thank you very much, Belinda. Belinda De Lucy, June Mummery, both new members of the European Parliament representing the Brexit Party. And tomorrow, I'll talk to a representative of the Liberal Democrats, another newly elected female MEP, and indeed to a green MEP as well. So looking forward to that.

Keep your thoughts coming at BBC Women's Hour on social media. Now, tomorrow, we're going to be talking about miscarriage. And to the journalist Rebecca Reid, this is specifically really about the idea that you are supposed, and the supposed there is in speech marks, to keep your pregnancy quiet up to 12 weeks. But that can be devastating, actually, if you do have a miscarriage before 12 weeks. Perhaps people don't know how to be sympathetic in that situation because they didn't know you were pregnant so how should you play that what should you do who should you tell and what should you say and how difficult is it

if unfortunately for you the pregnancy ends before that 12 week period so Rebecca Reid will talk about that on Women's Hour tomorrow and if you have any experiences you'd like to add, you can email the programme via our website. Now to the third in our series about teenage mental health. So far, you've heard from doctors and from teachers and today, parents. 75% of mental health problems do start before a child gets to their 18th birthday. Two mothers and a father have been speaking frankly to our reporter Catherine Carr. Now to protect the young people's identities no real names or places have been used and their children have a variety of mental health issues including anxiety,

self-harm and eating disorders as you'll hear. You'll also hear reference to CAMHS, that's some standing of course for Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. My daughter started off when I would say she was about six with anxiety, mainly surrounding being sick. She would be washing her hands and she would make her hands red raw doing that. She'd stop eating. She wouldn't eat at school. If she saw someone that's sick actually in the lunch hall at school, then she wouldn't eat for the next couple of days because she thought it was going to happen to her as well.

And I thought she'd grow out of it, you know, but I think when it started to affect her day to day, when she wasn't eating properly, I just got to the point where I thought, well, nothing I'm saying is working here, nothing. We need to go and chat to the doctor about it. And how did it feel to get to the end of your kind of mum skills it felt quite frightening actually I didn't I

didn't feel like I was failing in any way I just felt I thought I think I felt scared and just a bit desperate for her because she was so so distressed and and that's an awful thing to see it's a horrible thing to see as a parent you. You just want your kids to be happy and healthy and have the normal cares and distresses and get round them. So, yeah, I was more scared than anything else, I think. And they referred us to CAMHS, and we were put on a waiting list, which we were told at that point was 18 months. How did that bit of news feel?

I just felt really shocked that it was 18 months. How did that bit of news feel? I just felt really shocked that it was that long. With most things with children, if a child's ill, if you go into A&E, they sort of fast-track you through. You know, they get an appointment for you there and then they're fantastic. But with this, it was... I was just amazed, absolutely amazed. And also just scared again, because I thought,

how on earth are we going to get, you know, if she doesn't get better, what's she going to be like by the time we get some therapy or some real help with this? So I was then on the internet looking for strategies to help her. And so, you know, we were just treading water, really, until we got the proper assessment she was yeah very outgoing very friendly with people at primary school she was the first one in the school that managed to get to a grammar school for six years transitioned to secondary school she was stood up with 119 other girls in front of their headmistress who said if you leave here without at least 11 A-star GCSEs you'll be in front of me explaining

why you've let the school down so no pressure on a load of 11 year olds at all. At that stage she was overweight so then she's convinced herself she's fat she's stupid she's ugly and it went downhill from there what's it like when a child gets that narrative in their head and they're telling you they're telling themselves they're behaving like they're fat stupid and ugly and you're their dad how does that feel it's just a horrible horrible situation you're in you there's nothing you can say or do she actually told me that a million people could tell her she's gorgeous and good-looking and brilliant and bright and intelligent. One says one thing wrong, she'll listen to the one, not the million. And the other thing that doesn't help, of course, is social media.

You've got all this nonsense. When I was growing up, we didn't have that. The closest we had was a TV and a Radio Times. You can't switch it off. You can't get away from it. I have two children. Finn is 20 and Connie is 17. Finn was adopted at six months and Connie at nine months. Finn had a very fabulous foster family and they totally adored him. And when he came home, the transition was painless.

Connie, on the other hand, was physically well cared for but had no eye contact when she came home the transition was painless. Connie, on the other hand, was physically well cared for but had no eye contact when she came home and we have kind of pieced it together that she was physically well cared for but not emotionally stimulated. Looking back, we were very naive and we should have immediately sought some help. Both of them, Mike and I and my husband, had not realised the absolutely

catastrophic effect of post-adoption trauma. And so one's mental health is compromised immediately once one is moved from the familial home, no matter how inappropriate it is. The smells, the touches, the sounds, the environment that you've been used to is suddenly whipped away. We, in our hippie-type way, believe that love conquers all. Finally, our time came up to get some treatment, so she had some CBT for about, I think it was about five months in total, and that really worked.

She clicked with the counsellor, with the therapist. The other thing is that I was able to go in on the sessions, every session, so I was able to help her at home as well. So that was great. So that helped. About a year later, she started to dip again. So I went back to the GP with her and we had to go back to CAMHS again,

back on the waiting list. This time it was two years. And as she went from primary to senior school what happened with that transition for her? It was awful, I absolutely hated it. I used to almost every morning walk along the road with her to the bus with her probably crying or extremely nervous and then I'd cry all the way, I'll say all the way home it's not far, but you know back to the house and had the other children in the house as well that I couldn't leave. So I just felt pulled in all directions and it was really, really stressful.

And did you worry what she'd be like when she came home at 3.30 or 4 o'clock? Yeah, you just open the door and wait for the response. And often, in fairness, she'd had a good day. She's a studious person anyway so she her work was not affected really at that time when did it start to be affected year 10 i'd say what was going on for her oh so much i think um she was starting to self-harm she was having suicidal thoughts she was drawing very worrying drawings along that sort of subject area just you know i knew there was something far more than just normal anxiety because she just seemed totally flat not

enjoying life at all a lot of what you've described it all sounds quite solitary for you oh it's completely and you are you're put on a waiting list and left to get on with the rest of your life. You know, it really is like that. It's very, very lonely. And I know that there are lots of other people out there going through it, but that doesn't help me. You know, it doesn't help me today.

It doesn't help me deal with my daughter when she's telling me she wants to end her life. And also, this part of you doesn't help me deal with my daughter when she's telling me she wants to end her life. And also, this part of you doesn't want to tell anybody. Because you don't, you know, family friends, you don't want to upset them, you don't want them to have you don't want to put your worry onto them. But you need

support and you need help and it's just not there. She was a bit overweight but we never really got too concerned about that thinking it was just puppy fat and it would burn off but then as she got progressively older she was 13 stone at 13 14 stone at 14 so at the age of 15 she'd been on a diet for a few months and she'd gone down from about 14 and a half stone down to

nine and a half stone and I took her out her and her boyfriend we went out to the hard rock cafe up in London and I've got a photograph of her looking at me as a clam with this enormous bucket of ice cream that she was chowing into and, I didn't keep an eye on things. And the next time I looked at her carefully, she was down to something like a five and a quarter stone. Took her to the doctors, and the doctor took one look at her and said, immediately, hospital, now. Her and I, we were always kind of best friends,

even when she was a little girl. They always say dads and daughters and mums and sons are friends. were best friends and we there wasn't really much we won't and still don't talk about the sickening thing for me was that i seen i i regarded myself as having allowed my best friend to get in such a state she was in such a state that she was getting bed sores from laying in the bed she could only sit on a rubber ring because the bones were sticking through her behind. So I was in a situation where I was working up until probably half past six, getting home at half past seven, quarter to eight, spending the next three hours preparing a meal and trying to get her to eat it.

And then just going to bed and getting more and more tired. The problems that I was going through, and again, this isn't about me, it's about her, but had I not had any support at work from my line managers, then I'd have probably ended up as part of a statistic myself because they said, you know, if you want to be off work, then just stay at home. And that was our little way of saying

I was having a bit of a black moment and I wasn't in any state to be at work when you say that what actually were you going through uh job was suffering my marriage fell apart so it was the daughter that is the um she she's the main thing that kept me going, really. And unfortunately, over a three-year period, I actually said goodbye to her twice. And that was not a nice place to be in. I trained to be a counsellor, and when Finn had his first breakdown,

I stopped doing that because I couldn't take on lots of young people's stress and anxiety when both of mine were on you know running on empty so I got a job in a supermarket for eight hours a week just so I could get out of the house and stop thinking about it for eight hours well it was 12 hours at first but I cut down as I realised Connie needed me around more so I've been like a psychiatric nurse a psychologist a rehabilitation youth worker a friend a mum a sister you know everything that she's needed and likewise for Finn but there comes a point I'm 58 I feel like I'm 108 when you run out of steam and it's all just been too much and I feel diminished and broken by the system and as a parent you've just got to find it in you somewhere to get back up

again and keep fighting so I remember the first time we went on the waiting list for CAMHS and I remember phoning and saying is there any way we can get up the waiting list and I said I remember actually saying I know there are other children in need but I'm more bothered about my daughter frankly you know is there any way we can get it and she said the lady on the end of the phone actually said to me the only way that you can frankly is if your child's having suicidal thoughts and luckily at that time she wasn't so the second time we went back she was very much so and I was told that the criteria was such that it wasn't enough to have suicidal thoughts anymore they actually had to have a plan and this was asked in one of her therapy sessions they did actually say to her do you have a plan at which point she was a bit shocked I was

completely shocked she was a little bit taken aback and said well no no and then a few weeks later lo and behold she did have a plan and there was a part of me that's just thinking maybe if she'd not if that hadn't been said that wouldn't have gone into her head sort of thing she perhaps wouldn't have thought about it I don't know and there's no proving that either way but one other thing which I've found very difficult to deal with and I don't understand and I may understand if I had the chance to talk to a professional about this but I haven't is the way in which they talk to the child or the young person so at the end of a session I would be brought in to say, this is what we spoke about.

And this is what we're going to do going forward, that kind of thing. And then they turn to me and say, so, mum, you know the safety plan. So that's hide away all sharps, all sharp objects. Make sure you put away all tablets and keep those locked away in the first aid box, which we've always done. And then they said, oh, and anything like bleach under the sink, anything. And I'm thinking, she's not actually thought of that. And I know she's not thought of that. But now you just put that into her head.

So I just think there's a level at which they don't seem to think about how appropriate something is to say to a child. Because she is still a child. She was still a child at that time because once that's said it can't be unsaid and that I found that really distressing and confusing there was no element of um sort of preparing me for that or seeing or sort of care about how I might feel and I totally get that they see hundreds of children and we're all parents

desperately concerned about our children but I just think you do feel like you're on a bit of a conveyor belt of people with problems and that humanity's not there that sort of caring side's not there You said when she was very very poorly that you said goodbye to her twice

Yeah When was that? Take me back there. Yeah, that was not a nice occasion. And you just look at her and you think, you're dead. And you would do absolutely anything, absolutely anything, to get that child well again. But you're helpless doing it, you know. And that's all that's running through your head at the time,

and you think, I've got to go to work and i've got to face those bloody idiots i work with and all their petty little grievances and all the while i don't want to be here i just want to be making my daughter well again and you can't and there is nothing you can do about it did you find yourself doing those trades with the gods in your head oh yes me and the gods we're on first name terms now and i I often joke, you know, he got to the stage where the Samaritans would bring me up to see if I was all right, because they hadn't heard from me for a while.

You didn't call them? No. No, because, again, being of my generation, we're always told, don't talk about your feelings, and, you know, man up, get on with it, grow a pair, whatever you want to say. Since she's been managing it, I've got quite involved with

mental health at work with construction helpline etc etc by virtue of that it's it's taught me how to sort of what's the right word it's taught it's taught me that it is good to talk so when she was poorly when she was 13 and you hadn't become a mental health first aid and you weren't as adept at talking about it as you are now how did you articulate what it was that she was trying to tell you or what conversations could you manage really i had no frame of reference there was nothing i could think of and i just used to lay in bed at night and if i got two hours sleep at night it was a lot because you just how could I do this what do I need to do how can I get over it who can I talk to do I want

to phone the Samaritans is it a sign of weakness etc etc and in the end you just say oh sod it I've just got to do it I've just got to talk to somebody. Connie stopped going to school when she was 13 she had a breakdown in April 2015 and isolated herself and wouldn't come out of her room for two weeks. It was absolutely terrifying. I could hear her pottering about at night. She would cook three family-sized saucepans full of pasta and eat it. This is very common with kids with emotional trauma. And she was barricading the door. She wouldn't let us in she wouldn't talk to us I went to the GP they kind of shrugged their shoulders and said oh dear

out came a very well-meaning mental health nurse who'd done a CBT course that wasn't going to cut the mustard she looked terrified Connie wouldn't let her in She allowed her to sort of put her eye around so she could see her hiding under the duvet. But her reaction to having not being able to cope with school was being flooded with shame, utter self-loathing, and she felt degraded and lesser. We kept saying, it doesn't matter if you don't go to school, we can sort something out, but we need to see you. And it took about a year to get her to come out of her room downstairs a year and she lived like a you know hermit I used to call her she's going through her dracula phase so she would be asleep all day awake all night and it was terrifying because I couldn't get anyone to listen. How much of your headspace is taken up with this normally?

Most of it I would say and I think at the moment we're in a good place at the moment. Had you spoke to me a year ago I couldn't hand on my heart say she wasn't going to carry out the suicidal thoughts that she was having and threats. I genuinely, before I would have said, no, that's, she doesn't mean that. But at that, about a year ago, I would, I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that. But I'm always walking that cliff edge and I'm never sure if or when we're going to drop off again. Because that has happened a number of times when I think yeah this is fine this is great maybe this is the beginning of the end of it all and then something will happen and we'll have a great big dip again so I'm very very mindful of

that and you know what they say about people when they have depression or other mental health difficulties that you can't really fix it for them, you just have to be in it with them. It feels like, listening to you, that that's sort of not true when you're a parent because they're children and we need to do things for them. Absolutely. And I think, you know, any mum will relate to that feeling

of leaving your child at the gate when they're first starting reception and there's a lip wobble or a tear in the eye you can't rest all day you're thinking god are they all right and has somebody played with them and and it's just been on hyper alert for such a long time I just feel exhausted it's intense it's never ending it's like having a small vole at the base of your stomach churning around in a wheel taking nips out of you every five seconds i have to do positive self-talk to say to myself things are going to get better and

if you keep having the same principles of non-judgmental kind love things will get better and i do believe in the ability of humanity to help pain dissipate, not go away, not disappear forever, but learn to be lived with. And then perhaps you get to that age of 23, 24, 25, take a big deep breath and realise, do you know what? Everybody's struggling. It's not just me. And I think that's, for both of of them something they don't realize at all they feel very alone I'm still optimistic I'm always optimistic and I think that she will come through this and we'll all look back on it and not necessarily laugh but we will look back on it and think blimey that was a really really tough time but you got through it and look at you now kind

of thing that's what I really hope for i can't allow myself to believe anything else really i wouldn't say i'm an expert by any stretch of the imagination but all i can say to other parents that are listening is if you suspect that your kids are going through anything like this please go and get them checked out just go to the doctors if and they'll hate you for it they will absolutely hate you for it but if you want to keep them alive unfortunately that's what you've got to do. Catherine Carr the reporter there and our thanks to the parents who were prepared of course to talk to her you just really feel for them don't you hearing those voices of absolute desperation I really can't think of anything worse than seeing a child in such pain and feeling completely unable to help them out.

Just worth saying, of course, that you'll hear from Teenage Voices, actually, and their real stories on Wednesday's edition of Woman's Hour and on Friday. To make it clear, the whole programme will be about this issue of teenage mental health and we'll have an expert panel. Your experiences welcome, your questions welcome as well. You can contact us as ever via the website or on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Now, to your reactions to the things you've heard on the programme today, on the subject of the first conversation

about the domestic violence charities getting together to issue that statement, Jackie says it's fine to contact the police, but equally surely it's not okay to then send the recording to the Guardian. That's what I have a problem with. Catherine, I think the neighbours are receiving the backlash they are, not because they reported the row to the police,

but because they then chose to leak the story to the Guardian. If they'd been genuinely concerned for their neighbours' welfare, they wouldn't have done this. Andy makes the same point, another listener. I'd have more sympathy for the neighbours if they hadn't recorded the this. Andy makes the same point, another listener. I'd have more sympathy for the neighbours if they hadn't recorded the row before dialing 999 and then sending the recording to The Guardian. I think it's just worth saying that actually our conversation was not about whether or not they should have contacted a newspaper. It was about the fact that domestic

abuse charities felt so concerned about the mixed messages in all the reporting of what had gone on across the weekend in papers on television and on radio that they felt they really needed to clarify their own position and to emphasise the importance of reporting in such circumstances. So also, by the way, it's worth saying there's not a newspaper in the land that would have turned down that story. There's absolutely no doubt about that. I appreciate that a lot of people are picking on the fact that they contacted The Guardian. However, they happen to pick perhaps, who knows, their favourite newspaper.

But are you really telling me the other papers would have turned it down? I don't think so. And this is an anonymous listener. Just to add to your discussion today, our daughter in an abusive relationship actually said to friends she had wished neighbours had called the police. From Barbara, like many people, I've stood on the landing of a shared building listening to neighbours row and wondering what the point is where you have to intervene or call the police. I do sympathise with the neighbours. What do we say about neighbours in more serious situations? Will we tut and we shake our heads and ask how could they have turned a blind eye and let things happen? Another listener just heard the piece on the importance of neighbours in domestic violence cases. It's been on my mind all weekend to say how grateful

I am to my daughter's neighbours who called the police when they were concerned about things they'd heard. That call may well have saved my daughter's life or at least allowed her to escape serious injury. Her ex-partner is now in prison. I'm so grateful for the neighbours intervention and it's so important to make that call, says that listener. Thank you for that. Yeah, important, not easy, though. I suspect many people will really put themselves through the mill before they do indeed make the important phone call that might well be required and could, as that listener points out, be life saving. a midwife, Leah Hazard, and to a journalist, Rebecca Reid, about miscarriage and about that 12-week point. You are always, well, you tell me, actually, you can tell me tomorrow, is it still a thing to keep quiet about a pregnancy until you get to the 12-week point?

But how awful is it to actually lose the baby, to have a miscarriage before 12 weeks, and then actually feel a bit powerless and not able to talk about it because many people in your life will not have known you were pregnant in the first place. So that's a talking point on Woman's Hour tomorrow. Please do feel free to get involved. We all live in a digital world. How we work, how we play, the way we live, navigate the world, morals, laws, memories, even how we generate a thought and we share it with someone. These are all filtered, stored and sorted by the technology in our

devices, in the cloud, and even in the pavement beneath our feet. So we have to ask, how is the technological world shaping us as people? I'm Alex Kretratosky, and I want to introduce you to The Digital Human, the podcast that tells the stories of being human in was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.