Woman's Hour - Fabric a hidden history of material. Sweden's first female PM. Domestic violence and femicide in Turkey.

Episode Date: November 25, 2021

Do you ever pause to think about where the cotton t-shirt, woollen jumper or silk blouse you're wearing have come from? Victoria Finlay's new book Fabric weaves history, anthropology and myth to tell us the stories of different kinds of cloth, how they are made, why we wear them and the industries that have sprung up around them. As the Court of Appeal clears the names of seven former Post Office clerks who were convicted of false accounting, Pauline Stonehouse tells us about how she's finally been able to put the false allegations behind her and the impact they've had on her life.Within hours of Magdalena Andersson, a former finance minister becoming Sweden's first female Prime Minister, she's resigned and the government has fallen. What's behind her decision to stepdown? Why's it taken Sweden so long to catch up with their Nordic neighbours and have a woman at the top? We hear from the BBC’s reporter in Sweden, Maddy Savage and Drude Dahlerup - professor emerita of politics at Stockholm University.Plus as we mark White Ribbon day – a day when many people across the world come together to say no to violence against women, we look at the situation in Turkey where more than one in three women have experienced domestic violence and the number of femicides is rising. A new film Dying to Divorce, filmed over five years, tells the story of two survivors who works for the platform We Will Stop Femicide to get justice for others, and is the UK’s official entry for Best International Feature film at the Oscars. Emma talk to its director Chloe Fairweather and the Turkish lawyer Ipek Bozkurt.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley PurcellPhotographer Katia Marsh

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Yesterday was a big moment for Sweden and women because the country voted in its first female Prime Minister 100 years after women there got the vote. Magdalena Andersson had been the finance minister for seven years and became prime minister, briefly.

The number seven was to feature again in her life because she only lasted seven hours as the Swedish prime minister. We'll be digging into what on earth happened to this history maker and could it have been different or how it will be now. But I wanted to ask you today, if I may, and if you'd be so kind, and you often are, to indulge me with your stories of jobs you've held for a short period of time. What are those roles that you've only held onto by choice or otherwise fleetingly? What didn't

you do for very long? I'll confide I didn't last very long as a waitress, but I loved the call centre job that followed. I only did two shifts trying to serve food. I think I just wanted to eat it. But you can text me about your short-lived jobs. 84844, that's the number here at Woman's Hour. To get through, text will be charged to your standard message rate on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, I'll be talking to the post office worker,

the former post office worker, Pauline Stonehouse, who has finally been able to clear her name 13 years after being wrongly accused of false accounting. And the wonderful tales of one woman's mission around the world to understand how, where and who makes all of the fabric in our lives. It involves a lot of women, and in one particular story, urine's involved. I kid you not. Stay with me for that. But first, to the unfolding situation in the channel, which is being described as the worst disaster on record involving those trying to cross it. Five women and a child, a young girl,

are thought to be among the dead after yesterday's tragedy. In all, it is believed that 27 people drowned when they were trying to cross from France. A flimsy dinghy was found deflated in the cold water. Some from Iraq, some were from Somalia, and more information is emerging as the authorities are now trying to identify those who perished. The people who boarded that dinghy, like thousands who've done it before, were trying to get from Calais to the Kent coast. First, I'm joined by BBC's Europe editor Katja Adler, who's in Calais.

And Katja, good morning. I wanted to, and I know there'll be a lot of politics and there is a lot of politics involved in this, but I wanted to start by asking if you felt, or what evidence there is perhaps of any shift in focus away from politics and to the people at the heart of this? Well, I mean, yes, from people to people, if you like. I mean, there are all sorts of memorial services planned, dotted around Calais this evening. And there is really a deep sense of shock. I mean, of course, at the height of the migrant crisis, you know, the numbers of drowned and dinghies capsized in the Mediterranean was mind boggling. You'll remember that. The numbers, so pure numbers on the channel crossing of dinghies crossing and capsizing and lives lost is a lot smaller, but that does not reduce the whole human tragedy of this.

And that is something that's been expressed by the government in the UK, the government in France, and actually, you know, leaders further afield. This is the biggest single loss of life, though, over the Channel Crossing. The 27, I mean, it's at least 27 dead, and amongst those, five women and one girl. And I think, you know, that that touches everybody's hearts. But you cannot separate this from politics in that it comes down to asylum policy. And while you had President Macron and

Boris Johnson speaking last night and agreeing to step up cooperation to stop those illegal people smugglers, putting people looking for a better life or escaping horrors at home on these flimsy dinghies and risking their lives. They're also then at the same time trading blame with one another. The UK has said in recent weeks the French to stand by and let these people cross over trying to reach the UK. And the French say that the UK is too welcoming to people arriving without papers, making it too easy for them to illegally work in the country without being caught, even though regulations are in place to stop them officially from doing so. So there's human tragedy

and intertwined politics. Indeed, and that politics is also developing, as I was saying, with regards to at the same time, more information emerging about these individuals. We have heard and we do hear a lot about men, especially young men, who make this journey. And I wanted to ask about the women, because of course, that's part of this very much as well, and perhaps doesn't get the same focus. Well, there are women, as I said, in the 27 who've been reported dead now. Five of them were women, according to the French, and one of them a girl. So by numbers in these dinghies, it tends to be more men than women.

But definitely you see these boats packed, including women, some of them, you know, over the years since, you know, I remember very much at the height of the migrant crisis as well, those dinghies that were washing up on Greek shores, Italian shores, you often saw tiny babies being carried in mother's arms.

There was one such boat arriving in the UK yesterday. And that really, you know, all of it's shocking, you know, people who really, they risk their lives. And don't forget, it's not just, and I say just in inverted commas, you know, getting in a dinghy from France over to the UK in this channel, or from North Africa over to Italy, Spain, you know, or Greece. These are long travels or people who've attempted to cross before being stopped by the authorities and try again. People who've made their way across the world, you know,

Pakistanis, people from Afghanistan, people from Iraq, people from Syria. So, you know, people have made long and desperate journeys. And, you know, yes, the stories you hear are heartbreaking, men and women. But, you know, you do hear women talking about being persecuted at home, for example, in Yemen and fleeing for their lives and hoping for a better life for their children. Young men, we see very often they're looking for a better life, sometimes for themselves or escaping persecution. Sometimes they're sent ahead by families, hoping that they can then legally bring over the rest of their families if they have successful asylum claims. And I have to say, Emma, amidst this, we're working together,

but we're accusing each other of the UK and the French government. You have NGOs saying and lawyers for human rights saying, look, this is not the point. We have to stop the loss of life. We have to stop not just the people smugglers, but we just have to stop this. And the way to do that is to make legal channels for migration easier, to make asylum claims, the whole asylum process easier. Things, of course, between France and the UK have got a lot more complicated after Brexit, because France has become an exterior border of the EU. And France and the UK no longer share an asylum policy as the UK did when it was a member. That complicates things. But again, you know, human rights activists, NGOs are saying, well, forget those complications. Everyone just has to get their heads together and save more lives. Thank you very much. Katja Adler there with some of the latest

and some of the details that we do know already about what has happened yesterday and how this is developing now as a story. Our Europe editor, the BBC's Europe editor, were talking about those descriptions, if you like, and a bit more detail of who we're talking about here. Emma Yeomans has written a powerful article in The Times today. She was at the beach in Dungeness in Kent yesterday

where lifeboats were launching. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. If you could just... There we go. We're not together in the studio. Some of my guests are today, but you're joining us down the line. So in terms of what you saw yesterday, you've written this article about it got dark or a bit later, we understand that around 600 people made it across the channel to this peninsula in Kent. We saw numerous boats landing or being brought in by the RNLI. It was exceptionally cold down there, five degrees before dawn, and I don't think it warmed up that much. So people were arriving wet and cold onto these beaches and many were waiting for a very long time being processed,

just sitting on the beach in the cold. It was a very, very brutal scene. Of course, we're talking about those who lost their lives and I'm very aware you're talking about, of course, who managed to get here just to make that distinction. But in terms of the women that you came across yesterday, could you tell us about them? Yes, yes. We saw several boats carrying a significant number of women and children. In one boat, there were six children under 10 or at least under 12. And we saw children as young as toddlers. We saw babies in arms as well being carried out

of these boats um the journeys they had been making to Dungeness they had generally been setting off further down the French coast so many had been at sea for 10 10 hours or more one man said he had been there 12 hours and that had been exceptionally hard on the children particularly who had not had food or water on that journey in many cases. We saw one woman who was so weak by the time she arrived that she just couldn't walk up the beach and had to be supported up there. Did you manage to talk to any of the women? I didn't manage to speak to many of the women, but I did speak to a father who was there with his two sons who were 13 and 15. He was travelling with his brother, who was an Afghan army officer, but worked with the British

and fled the Taliban. His sons were so cold that they couldn't speak to me. They were just shivering. But he said that it had been a very, very long and difficult crossing. And they'd been travelling about three months from Afghanistan. And I mean, did they say anything? That's an extraordinary amount of time. And I think it puts into context this bigger journey that those individuals are on. And of course, we've been talking a great deal, not least as well on this program with specific reference to Afghan women and what's been going on since the Taliban took the country in August. But did you get a sense of what he was expecting now or what the process was from that beach, from that journey? Quite the opposite. Quite the opposite.

Many of them asked me if I knew what would happen to them next, asked if I knew where they would be taken, what would happen, who they would need to speak to. Many of them really did not know what was awaiting them. It's also worth stressing that a place like Dungeness, it works slightly differently to somewhere like Dover, where there is a shore and a quayside and processing. Many of these people were pretty much staggering up the beach. One boat landed on its own with people just trying to make their way up this beach alone. And there was confusion even on just due to the numbers over what should happen next coaches were taking people from Dungeness up to processing centres but there was one point by mid-afternoon I saw at least 100 people there were no coaches to to move them on and therefore

nowhere warm to wait and very little food or water for them. So not only did many of the people arriving not know what would come next, it wasn't even being made clear to them very quickly on the beach what would happen. And then of course this news broke about what had happened in the channel. Yes, yes and having seen many of the boats that made the crossing yesterday, all those I saw were borderline identical. Frankly, it's not hard to see how there's an accident with a boat like this. One of them was so rickety that when the RNLI grabbed the handle on the front to try and tow it, the handle just came off.

The rescuer said it was so newly made that the glue wasn't even dry. Emma Yeomans, reporter for The Times there with that particular dispatch. Thank you very much for explaining what you saw yesterday. Of course, that story will continue to develop and you'll be updated across the BBC as it is. But in terms of what was saw there and in terms of hearing about the individuals, we wanted to try and do as much of that as we can. But as I say, at the moment, authorities are trying to identify those who perished in the channel. Now, I did mention in terms of the politics of Sweden right at the beginning of the programme, with regards to a real moment yesterday for the country, 100 years after women in Sweden got the vote, the country elected its first female prime minister. Except it didn't quite go how perhaps

it was meant to, to say the least. Magdalena Andersson had been the finance minister for seven years. People knew her as that, became prime minister. But seven hours later, she resigned. Let's try and figure out what's going on here. And I should say some incredible stories about very short-lived jobs also coming in, to which I will come to in a moment. The BBC's reporter in Sweden, Maddy Savage, is on the line and also

Drudy Dalarup, Professor in Politics at Stockholm University. Maddy, let me come to you first. I remember seeing this story yesterday thinking, wow, we're going to have a really good discussion about this on Women's Hour. I didn't check my phone for a few hours and then it all changed. Yeah, it was one of the most dramatic days in Swedish political history. Some commentators calling yesterday Super Wednesday. Let me tell you part one. So Magdalena Andersson was voted in as the country's first female prime minister by parliament around this time yesterday. And that was to replace Stefan Löfven, who's from the same party. He'd been in the job since 2014 and he was retiring. Now, the vote in itself would have been enough drama on any other day. So she got through by a whisker. There was just one vote in it. That's because in Sweden,

you don't actually need the majority of MPs to vote you in as prime minister, but you've got to ensure a majority don't vote against you. So there were 11th hour talks with one opposition party, earlier talks with one of the smaller centre-right parties. They abstained, the maths worked out, and she was selected by parliament in this huge moment of history, the first female Prime Minister that Sweden's ever had. So cue all of that global attention. And then seven hours later, she resigned. Part two. So this was all to do with her budget. So she was Finance Minister, as you were saying, and there was due to be a vote on

her budget yesterday. In any case, that was all scheduled before this leadership vote. But what happened was that even though she'd got enough backing from Parliament to become prime minister, she didn't get enough backing from Parliament for her budget. And what happens in Sweden is that opposition parties can propose alternative budgets. So a group of right-wing parties had done that, and their budget got voted through instead. Now, crucially, one of these parties was the Sweden Democrats. They're an anti-immigration party here. They came third in the polls in the last elections. Now, the government's longtime coalition partner are the Greens, and they refuse to be part of any government following a budget that was negotiated

by nationalists. So they said they'd leave the government, and that triggered Magdalena Andersson's resignation. She said she couldn't be part of a government with any questions surrounding its legitimacy. So as things stand, we now have a caretaker government with the former Prime Minister Stefan Löfven in charge, and we're waiting to find out what happens next. It is an extraordinary day, and even if you know nothing about Sweden, I think everybody's have tuned into this because of a moment of history that then was reversed or certainly didn't continue. What does she say in her resignation? I know you gave a flavour of it there. But did you get a sense of because of that additional being the first woman, a sense of what

that must have been like? I mean, she's clearly proud to be taking on this position. And I think that's something that was reflected during the day. But I don't think there was really time for a lot of calls for celebration because there was sort of doubts coming through the day. She didn't want to say too much before the budget. But essentially, what she is saying is she still wants to be able to take on the job. She would be proud to lead a one party social democrat minority government.

And that's what she's going to be pushing for now. We're waiting, as I say, for more information from the Speaker of Parliament. But what there could essentially be is a new vote next week. And if all the parties vote

the same way that they did last time, which they've said that they will, then she'll get voted through still as prime minister again. But without the backing of the Green Party in a formal coalition, they probably support her tacitly. But we don't 100% know exactly how all of that's going to pan out. But she certainly really does want to be this historic figure leading the first government ever led by a woman in Sweden. Jude, we thought we had a lot going on with Brexit and the proroguing of Parliament and all sorts of things that were going on in Britain. Tell me about how it was for you yesterday as a professor of politics.

I agree with Maddy. This was a historical moment. Historical because Sweden got the first women prime minister. And it has been embarrassing. You know, Sweden has a high profile on gender equality policy. It has a government led by a man, Stefan Löfven, who was also declared feminist. The government has lead the feminist foreign policy. Right. And it was embarrassing because this is Sweden's only Nordic countries among the five Nordic countries that never had a woman prime minister. And there was a great enthusiasm about this. And she's very respected. She's very experienced.

In fact, she's one of the most experienced people to get into this position as a prime minister as Sweden ever has, right? She's been finance minister since 1914. And there was even on the both on the right and the left a great, great enthusiasm about having the first women prime minister herself. Well, you know, women prime ministers are really pushed from various positions, right? And what did she say? Well, she's not the prime minister saying, oh, it doesn't matter whether the prime minister is a man or a woman. No. She has this, she's not saying either that I'm a burning feminist right now. But she is leading or should lead or will lead a feminist government.

But she is pointing to the symbolic importance of having a female prime minister, saying it's very important now for young girls and for young teenage girls that seeing that a woman could be a prime minister. And I'm very proud to have cracked the glass ceiling for this position. You say it was embarrassing that Sweden hadn't until then. Why do you think there had been that situation? Or do you think it was just who was available and the mood at the time?

What do you put it down to? Now, in my field of study is women in politics, and there's no coincidences here. This is a responsibility for political parties to open up for a career pattern of women, right? I mean, the next women prime minister in Great Britain should be on the route to be a prime minister right now. And we have had two incidents of female leaders who were almost to become the first women prime ministers. We had one in the Social Democratic Party, Mona Selleen, who in about 1910 went to her first election as a leader of the Social Democratic Party. And everybody said, now you're going to maybe having the first women prime minister. And she lost the election and she will draw but even the conservative party have had a women leader uh um and she was she also when she never went to an election but she had so much against her in within the party uh and

nation bear batra so in 2017, she will draw. So we have had two almost female prime ministers. But now we have the first and she's probably going to be elected next week. I'm sure it sounds like you hope that. Yes, you had the first. We still have to have it in the past tense for now. That's true.

We will see where we get to. Maddy, I was just looking about how Magdalena Andersson's been referred to in the press as referred to that. She's been in post as finance minister for the past seven years and is very experienced. But she's also nicknamed the bulldozer, which some women do not like who support her. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. So I think personality wise from from the left and the right, she's got a reputation as being very pragmatic, very quick and straightforward. But when she was first chosen by her party, there were quite a few politicians who spoke anonymously to different Swedish media. They described her as blunt, someone who can get angry,

no shame in saying what she thinks. And that led to a bit of a debate about the words that were used and whether her behaviour had been framed in a different way to if she was a man when she might, for instance, have been called clear and decisive if she was a male. And that was quite interesting to me because it was an example of these deep rooted stereotypes or value judgements about women still existing in a country that is so progressive on paper. But as Jude has said, there is still maybe a bit of an old boys club in politics and some of the parties are still quite traditional. What do you think, Maddy, about that? Would I just add this?

Yes, go on, Jude. It was said this, that she has a temper, right? Yes. But then, of course, the feminists were arguing and saying, well, have you at any time had a prime minister who didn't have a temper? Probably you need to have a temper to be a prime minister. So it was this kind of double standard. I agree with Maddy about this, but very few people said that. And I would say there's a general improvement and general support for Sweden should have a women prime minister this time. But

of course, the opposition want to be in government and they have a woman prime minister this time. But of course the opposition want to be in government and they have a man as their leader. There's actually a poll out today. Four in ten voters are confident or very confident in her and that's more than any of the other party leaders. Well, I was going to say, Maddy, we'll see. Maybe

we'll have you back next week and if she gets back in, we'll see how long she lasts and we'll follow the world of Swedish politics as well as our own. Maddy Savage, the BBC reporter in Sweden, thank you very much to you. And Professor of Politics, Trudy Dalroop at Stockholm University, thank you to you. I should say you've really warmed to the theme of jobs you only held for a short period of time, some of them a bit longer than seven hours and some very much not that way. If I just come to a few of these here, I lasted two mornings making sandwiches, 5.30 to 8 a.m. in my first term at university. I thought I was a morning person. Sleeping through the alarm on day two proved otherwise.

From Nicola, listening in Bath. Good morning. My shortest lived job was a chip packer at a frozen food factory when I was a student. I lasted a week. It's all right, it's a bit longer. I had to stop when I started hallucinating as the conveyor belt vibrated so much, says Rachel. Another one, I lasted less than half an hour

in a waitressing job aged 17. Turned up, shown through to the kitchen, told my first job was to scrape unused mayonnaise off old plates back into the pot.

I thought it was a joke, but they were serious. I walked out, got a job in a lovely pub where I learned to make fresh mayonnaise every day. And I worked there in my university holidays for four years. So a short lived job leading to a longer one. Penny says back in the 60s, I was a professional dancer as a fill in. I took a job in the circus as a fill in. Excuse me. I took a job in the circus.

Terrible decision. Had to ride the elephants. Landed up, ended up allergic to them, hated it. And I ran away after three weeks. Well, of all the jobs I thought I was going to hear about this morning, that was not one of them. But that is the joy of how you contribute to the programme and make us all the better for it. Please do keep doing so. The number you need is 84844. Now, earlier this week, the Court of Appeal cleared the names of seven former post office workers who were convicted of false accounting. Between 2000 and 2014, the post office prosecuted 736 sub postmasters and sub postmistresses, an average of one a week, based on information from a recently installed computer system called Horizon. The software was used for transactions, accounting and stock taking, but was flawed. It showed money was missing from accounts when it wasn't. Some post office workers went to prison following convictions for false accounting and theft, and many were

financially ruined and have described being shunned by their communities. Some, we should also say, have since died. Well, Pauline Stonehouse is one of those who has just cleared her name more than 13 years on and joins me now. Good morning, Pauline. Good morning. It happened this week, the clearing at the beginning of this week?

It happened Monday morning at 10.30. How does that feel? Oh, massive relief to finally get my name clear. It hangs over your head. Going for jobs prevents you doing important jobs, any more mandatory jobs. I couldn't do any of that because as soon as they do an advanced search, it's going to show up on my records and basically I couldn't do it. In terms of what actually happened, you were convicted of six counts of false accounting? Yes, that's correct.

And what are your memories of taking your mind back to when this started happening, the kind of shortfall and what you thought was going on? Initially, I just thought it was a mistake with transactions going through because it could happen and then it would come back at some point and it would correct itself. But as time went on and it was consistently happening, it just didn't add up because prior to a new counter being put in my shop I had no issues with balancing and as soon as my computer system got changed it was still gone from horizon to horizon but as soon as it got changed to a different till format things started going wrong and it was consistently every week small amounts large amounts and initially you put the money in it comes out of your shop takings or your own wages and that was fine um to a point but then as it continued it continued and continued it just didn't make any sense anymore and i imagine i imagine it made even less sense when the authorities got involved

oh yeah even less sense because you know you you approach you approach your your post office bosses to seek help and when you you go for that and you get told it's going to be okay it'll rectify itself and then when it doesn't and you get drawn into false accounting showing figures that aren't there because you have no other choice to then approach my business development manager and say look this is what i've been doing because i don't know what's going on to then get suspended and then be arrested and then be charged after hours of being interviewed and being accused yeah it was life-altering it was I've never been in that position before to be in that predicament really um to be accused of because I'm not a dishonest person and yeah it's horrible it's had a huge impact on your life hasn't it yes yeah we lost because of

the because of the post office suspension um I had managed to continue with the shop side of retail side of things for a couple of months um but without the post office wage coming in there was no longer viable so we had to go bankrupt uh so we lost our business in our business that we paid good money for as a going concern we then lost our home we were made homeless and we were lucky that the a judge supported us and helped us stay in the house for a bit longer before the bank couldn't repossess us straight away. My youngest daughter was only just over a year and a half old. The eldest daughter was about eight.

So we had about a six-month leeway before we had to be rehomed. I mean, you get offered some awful places. The first house they offered us through the homeless scheme, I wouldn't have let my dog live there, but I felt like I had no choice but to take it until my husband saw it and said we're not living here and then the next place was much better um needles in the garden people with a knife hiding behind my bin outside the front door with the police presence and you got young children in that environment it wasn't

very pleasant um so yeah it was dramatic um effect on our lives you know your credit history is then affected you can't get loans you can't buy anything we have to live hand to mouth to save for anything that we needed we had to have help off our parents to buy things to put to put flooring down in the new house that we got because we couldn't afford to put the flooring down. And while all of this is going on, people who either knew you or didn't will have been thinking that you did something wrong. Yeah, I think there would have been some that would have thought that.

They would have seen my picture in the paper and they would have known me through having the post office or previous employment that I'd had before I became a postmistress they would have known my face they would have known you know my name um so yeah we had a few funny looks off people but then we also had some people who you know reassured me that they knew I'd done nothing wrong and I wasn't to worry but it doesn't stop you worrying about people who look at you when you walk down the street I think I became a bit of a recluse for a while and my husband for definite wouldn't go anywhere near the seafront where the post office was for a good three four years he couldn't walk

past the shop because it hurt him so much where are you based where are we talking about we're in seaburn in Sunderland how did Monday feel actually being cleared oh fantastic it was very emotional walking into the court to know that to know that that Monday I would be finally cleared and I never thought that happen. I didn't think I ever had the possibility. I didn't even know there was others like me up until two, three years ago when Alan Bates and his grouping first came into the news. I never heard of any others. I just thought it was just me.

And I just thought I've just got to live with it the rest of my life. So now it's gone. Oh, weight off my shoulders, massive weight I can't even I can't even imagine it it's fantastic I think as my solicitor said Neil Hedgley says is take a few days to sort of decompress and and take it all in um yeah and I think it's finally sinking in now it's um made me a bit unwell over the weekend i think with the nerves and the stress of it all um and um i've not been able to sleep more and and building up

to it but now i'm settling down again now i think and um yeah it's it's going to get better definitely it's a strange way of saying this, but I'm just so incredibly happy for you, you know, that you can have this moment. Yeah, it is. And there's loads of us still to come to, you know, with only, what, 70 so far, just over 70 who've had their convictions overturned out of 700 of us. Indeed, that is a huge, it's a huge number. We've all got similar but also different stories. We've all had, you know, led to different things. But I think the underlying story is that it's the way that we were convicted, it's the way they went after us, essentially. When now we know they've known for a long time there was a problem.

I think that's the other element of this, which so dystopian, I mean so much of it is that you didn't know about each other, each of you. No, well I certainly didn't. Apparently it had been reported in certain press or computer weekly and such like but unless you read

those you wouldn't know would you and I certainly wouldn't have read anything like that i read what's the normal news on the local news and yeah don't really pay for that often what what do you do today pauline what do you and your husband do now because i should say you know people will be wanting to know if you've been able to get back on your feet in all sorts of ways you're talking to me uh on a video call and i can see a wonderful array of pictures behind you.

My favourite one is a sign with lights around it, which says today's menu, eat it or starve, which is a good motto for when you're feeding the family. Unfortunately, it doesn't probably apply in my house

because my youngest daughter has me wrapped around her little finger. And I even had to resort to making bolognese without onions and peppers in it because otherwise she won't eat it. So she has her own personal menu. Well, you can but hope that that sign will have some impact. My mother lived life by that sign. It was eat it or starve, but not me.

But you have seemingly got a bit back onto your feet oh yeah i think we were lucky that my husband was managed to get a job within a couple of weeks um of becoming bankrupt and i think he's worked ever since okay and i didn't work for a long time um after that uh both parents ill and so i helped care for them the substance could be passed away, unfortunately. And then I was able to learn to get a small job in a little shop just around the corner from where I'm living now. And I did that for a few years until unfortunately I got breast cancer three years ago. I'm all healthy now. I'm cancer free. And I was starting to think about going back to work. And then my eldest daughter has had a baby and she's six months old and she's absolutely gorgeous and as mothers do with their or

grandmothers do for their grandchildren and they step in and help out when it's needed and that's what I'm doing at the minute I'm helping look after the little one well and also talking on women's hour just you know for a few spare So my husband, who was poorly at the minute with COVID, he's actually in the front room trying to look after the little one while not having too much physical contact or breathe on her. These are the trials and tribulations of regular life to which you must be so happy to be back in the middle of after all of this. Who are behind my head? Pauline, it is an absolute delight to talk to you. Thank you very much for coming on. Thank you.

All the best to you and to your family. And I'm sure we're going to have quite a few messages to that effect coming in when you've just heard Pauline's story and her ability to talk to us after what has been an incredibly momentous and long-awaited week. Today is White Ribbon Day.

You may or may not be aware of that. What that means is the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women. And a new film entered for an Oscar as the UK's official entry for Best International Feature Film focuses on the situation of violence against women in Turkey, where more than one in three women have experienced domestic violence and the number of femicides is rising. Dying to Divorce was filmed over five years. It tells the story of two survivors, Arzu and Bakru, and features the lawyer, Ipek Bozkurt, who works for the platform We Will Stop Femicide to Get Justice for Survivors.

She's just joined me in the studio alongside the film's director, Chloe Fairweather. I'm just going to come to studio alongside the film's director, Chloe Fairweather. I'm just going to come to you first, if I may, Chloe, because it's such an incredibly powerful film. Congratulations on that. Why did you want to make it or what turned you to this particular story of these women in Turkey? Well, it started in a slightly unpredictable way. I was in Turkey working on something completely different with a journalist called Christina Asquith, and she was aware of the work of this platform, these amazing activists. So we just went to check it out on spec. And the first thing that we encountered was following one of the activists meet Arzu, a woman who'd been shot at close range by her husband in the arms and legs when she tried to divorce him. And it was just so shocking and devastating to hear her story. But also it felt very clear that she really wanted and needed her story to be told

and that the international community wasn't really aware of the scale of violence and the situation that was happening in Turkey. So it was really that meeting that created the momentum and that led us to meet and led me to meet Ipek, who's a lawyer with that platform, and find out more about her cases. And the project just sort of grew and grew from there. Ipek, good morning. Welcome to the programme. At your platform, We Will Stop Femicide, tell us about the work.

It's a women's platform, basically, and it provides trial watch at femicide cases and violence against women cases in Turkey. It is organised throughout Turkey. It's got volunteers in different cities. So a survivor of a domestic violence, for instance, would come to us and find one of the volunteers in her city and ask us, we experienced this,

ask us to follow her case, litigation case with us. And we raise public awareness to the case and we organize street marches on important days, like the current one, for instance. So, for instance, what will be happening today in Turkey, do you think? There are different groups have organized street marches today, because today is the 25th of November, maybe not on this day, but throughout weekends, and then we've got the 8th of March issues. The platform creates this dynamic motivation to arrange a public event, because it's very structured. So whenever we face, which is quite frequent in Turkey actually,

news about a femicide or a governmental act, for instance, withdrawal from an international organization, any convention, the platform organizes events. It calls for public awareness, basically. Yes, the president earlier this year removed Turkey from the Istanbul Convention. And this is why, just to come back to you, Chloe, you say in the film, and you make a point of this throughout, that this is a political issue, which you can't quite imagine until you see and familiarise yourself with what's been said by political figures, not least the leader.

Yeah, I think that was one of the things that really, my first ever conversation with Ipek, she said to me, femicide, domestic violence is political. And I just took a bit of time to actually fully unpack that with her and explore it. And it was very powerful to see the way in which a culture of violence is created in a country by political rhetoric, by the society. And that seems very sort of negative and difficult. But actually, as much as when you see that a culture can be created, you also start to feel that a culture can be changed as well. And I think the activists and their work really highlights that, that, you know, this is not, this doesn't have to be our reality, we can fight to change it. And obviously, that battle is unbelievably, impossibly hard, but the fight is hopeful. When you actually see President Erdogan say, you know, there's a difference between men and women,

and women are to be mothers, and you can't explain it to the feminists because they don't get it. He also then goes on to say, you know, for instance, everyone should kiss the soles of their mother's feet. But there are different roles for women and men. What is the reaction to that amongst the women, you know, you speak to and you know? It's not only, just to put it out, it's not only Erdogan that makes such discussions. It's a whole lot of political leaders and like politicians in Turkey. So when I hear this, I feel like the men are really quite frightened from women.

They just want to keep the static as it is, lock women into the families, and do not give them any chance to speak and make independent decisions about their lives and be free. So family is such a, it seems like a reasonable way to put woman into. And we actually underline what he's saying is actually the definition, book definition of gender-based violence, gender-based discrimination, basically, which triggers all this domestic violence

and increase of femicides in the society. So such discussion, such rhetoric, as Clu says, it triggers domestic violence and violence against women at another level, at the society level. But it's also, isn't it, Chloe, about the punishment or lack thereof when you are committing these acts of violence. That's a big part of this as well, isn't it? Yeah, I think that part of this culture is one of impunity.

And yeah, when those murders and when that violence is committed, nothing really happens as a consequence. And there's also a culture which you see elsewhere in the world but it's it is extreme in Turkey of blaming the woman for the act of violence that has been committed on her saying was she she tried to leave me so that's why I did this which in Turkey has been used as legal argument with success in certain cases. But it's not a remote situation. That is something that happens everywhere in the world. It's systemic in the way that it is. The film's called Dying to Divorce,

just to remind people, I should say, it's released in cinemas tomorrow, Friday. But it also features the story of Kubra, who suffered brain damage two days after she gave birth. Her husband put it down to the C-section, nothing to do with him. And you helped the family with the case. Ipek, are you familiar with this story? Yes, exactly. That's one of the cases that I followed with Claire. So I was the lawyer of Kubra. And throughout long years that we followed the case, we were just trying to prove that Kubra suffered brain bleeding, basically, that gives her current condition. And there was an injury on her head. So trying to make a link between these.

If there is bleeding, that should have come from the injury on the head. But that's what the forensic reports in the file decided to ignore. And the judge was also very inclined to ignore that the bleeding could have come from the injury. So that is this decision not to draw this link leads to impunity, as Clio said. So impunity starts off, it just escalates violence. It's a very clear and simple calculation, actually. The words of politicians that motivates violence, the impunity at the courthouses, it leads to violence. Yes, and it makes you in a difficult situation to trust any institutions as well, which is hugely difficult to imagine as a norm,

even if we talk obviously a great deal here about conviction rates, for instance, around rape, and also with regards to domestic violence not being what they should be. Just finally to you, Chloe, if I can, as I say, Dying to Divorce, name of the film, out tomorrow. What's been the reaction so far to the film, perhaps inside Turkey and out? Well, we've had a really good reaction wherever we've showed it, and we have shown it globally now.

It's had a release more internationally at festivals throughout the year. And this is now its UK release. So, yeah, I think what's powerful about the film is, yes, it highlights the situation in Turkey. But women connect to it from every society that we've shown it to because domestic violence, femicide, misogyny are unfortunately issues that every society grapples with and has to face. So I think in that sense, we felt like it's contributed to that conversation. Yeah, an international story, but very specific focus, of course, on Turkey. And just to say it is White Ribbon Day, the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

And with Turkey, just to remind you, more than one in three women have experienced domestic violence and the number of femicides is rising. Very big thanks to both of you for coming on today and all the best with the UK release. Now, I wanted to ask you a completely different question and with regards to something perhaps you can think about right now, depending on what you're wearing or what even maybe, I don't know, a piece of fabric that is near you. Do you ever pause to think about where, I don't know, the cotton T-shirt, the jumper, the blouse that you're wearing have come from? I'm looking all around me, this fabric that I'm wearing,

this fabric here on the desk of the radio studio. Well, Victoria Finlay's new book, Fabric, weaves history, anthropology and myth to tell us the stories of different kinds of cloth. And the book is full of fascinating facts. For instance, the word clue comes from the old English term for a ball of yarn that can be wound back to show the right path. Love that. But it is also full of stories of the women who make cloth and the women that Victoria met on her adventures around the world are just wonderful to hear. And we can hear a bit more now, I hope, now of that.

Victoria, good morning. Good morning. I wanted to start, I could start anywhere. You've taken us to so many different places, but a bit more with the Omi tribe in a remote village in Papua New Guinea. Bark cloth? Absolutely. I was really intrigued. I studied as an anthropologist and I was really intrigued about bark cloth. I'd seen it, but I had no idea really what it was. And it sounded really itchy. It sounded quite unappealing, didn't it? Called bark cloth. But

actually it's not made of the outer bit of the bark it's made of the inner bit of the bark and that's the bit that the sap goes up and down through so it's actually where the blood of the tree goes through so it's a living a living part and it's made I found of paper mulberry there are different trees but the main one the most beautiful one is paper mulberry which is a very it it goes up to about sort of six feet, and then it starts to branch out, so it becomes useless. And it's quite thin. And they cut it down, they strip it down. And then they have a little bit, maybe there's that maybe the length of a credit card or something like that, quite thick. And then they start to beat it.

And I actually visited the My Sin tribe on Collingwood Bay in Papua New Guinea. And a very traditional village. They use it for ritual. It's not their normal clothes. Their normal clothes, they'd be dressing like you and me. But for ritual, they wear this bark cloth. And in the morning, the first thing you hear in the morning in the My Sin Village is actually swish, swish, swish of sweeping.

That's what the women do at four o'clock in the morning. And then as dawn comes, you begin to hear bang, bang, bang. And it's that thin bit of credit card width, thickness being banged out, being pulled out to be the width of either a loincloth that's a one year old tree or a skirt which is an 18 month tree and then they paint it it's it's an extraordinary it's amazing quality well i was going to say and a tradition that's passed down from from mothers to daughters very much much so. Yes, you learn from your mother and from the older women in the tribe. And what I know, so my age is 57. And that is

actually the watershed in terms of learning from your mothers. The women of my age and older often were tattooed on their faces it was extraordinary it was startling to see but after two weeks I kept I started thinking oh I'd have had it if if it had been me so they they'd have the um the tattoos at 13 and the tattoos would be planned out on the bark cloth and the patterns of the tattoos are the patterns of the bark cloth it's about continuity well let's go to calico shall we a kind of bleached cotton and women could get into trouble when it was first introduced is dorothy orwell a name we should know yeah so it's i mean it was such a hard situation so i mean cotton now it's everywhere we can have so much cotton that in

three years we could get every bale to the moon. We have so much cotton. But at the time, it was really precious. It was precious in India where it was made. It was precious in today's Indonesia where it's traded to. And when it started coming to Britain, it had come in Roman times, but it was really expensive. It started coming to Britain and it was affordable by ordinary people. We wanted it.

People wanted it. It could be beautiful. You could put patterns on it. And Dorothy Orwell and the linen weavers and the silk weavers were really angry and worried and scared. You know, this was their livelihoods. This was their family. And Dorothy Orwell, 1720, she was walking through Parliament Fields in London and she got attacked by what was described in the Old Bailey as a multitude of weavers who tore her clothes off and stripped her. And and that was them being angry at their livelihoods. But also, I mean, as we've heard this morning, you know, there's so much pain in the world. And and what they were doing really was showing a kind of power. They were pushing their own power onto this woman who was the victim of their frustration.

And, you know, these things happen time and time again in the history of fabrics, as in the history of the world. It's an extraordinary lens. I mean, that's an incredibly distressing story. Of course, as you've also shared, there's incredibly joyful stories of continuity, tradition, family and bonds. But it's amazing how this lens of fabric can lead you to so many stories. And as I say, especially to so many women's stories. I should say, closer to home, you have a chapter on tweed, traditionally made by women in Scotland who walked the tweed. And I did mention that urine could be involved in some of these stories. Or is it just this one? No, no, there's loads of urine. But this one's a really good urine story. Great. So to to full the the the wool, the woven fabric in tweed,

you need to kind of really pummel it. And in the Outer Hebrides, where Harris Tweed is made, one of the traditions is to pummel it as a group of women, like eight or ten women traditionally would be there. And they would sing, so it was called walking, like walking, W-A-U, but actually our word walking is related to it. And they would sing. So it was called walking like like walking W.A.U. But actually our word walking is related to it. And they would move it always with the sun. They would move it round at the end. Traditionally, it was consecrated and they would sing songs that that would keep the rhythm going with it. And also, I think it was quite muscular. I mean, I think it was. But the smell of it.

I mean, the smell of it, apparently it was described as it would make a seaman cry. It would make a sailor cry. And I hadn't smelt that. But I did hear that it was smelt like smelling salts. And, Emma, I don't know, have you ever smelt smelling salts i don't think i have no i having heard that obviously yes investigative journalist that i was i went to our load to our chemist and i said do you have any smelling salts and they said by chance we do so i i smelt it actually i did it on the zoom with some friends i just thought it would be funny oh my god it was it was really startling i mean i just try it it's it's

really startling and that apparently is what the smell of that that urine it wasn't just normal urine it was stale urine a man called um um finley mcdonald he remembered in the 1920s going around to the to the people who were making the tweed and they would have a stale urine pot outside. And after he had drunk the tea, he would be recommended to contribute. Contribute. Everybody get involved. The urine of young boys was apparently better than anything else. The things you learn, the things I'm learning all the time in this job. Let's hear a bit of a walking song. You just mentioned the music. Recorded back in 1951, it's called They Sent Me to the Barn, sung by Mrs Fanny MacIsaac and a group of women. And because of you, I'm sort of smelling that scene as well in the same way.

I should say there's so many more tales I could share, we could share. They're all in the book. The book's called Fabric. But this is something actually that was inspired by your mother, isn't it? It was. So I was thinking of doing the book and then I couldn't. My father had been ill for many years. My mother was looking after him. I really thought, you know, this kind of book involves a lot of work and a lot of going out. And I didn't want to be out somewhere else when I could

and should be helping my mother. And she said, don't do it just yet. Don't say no just yet because your father's going to die. My father said, don't say no just yet because he knew he was going to die. So we were in this kind of stasis and we went off to the American Museum. I live in Bath, American Museum, brilliant. There was a show there of the kind of funeral clothes

and wedding clothes and christening clothes that you wear at the key points in life. And we saw on the funeral wall, the last room, on the funeral wall, there was an extraordinary patchwork. It was very vibrant. It was crimson and all of these kind of bright colours. It was done by a woman who was joined by a friend after her husband died and they made this patchwork.

And my mother said to me, you know, we could do a patchwork together when your father dies. It's going to be really hard. We're going to need to do something with our hands but but then she said but actually it's going to be the worst patchwork in the world because she'd grown up without parents um uh to look after her and I well my mother had been completely useless at teaching me how to do sewing so we were going to make the worst patchwork in the world and I I was excited about doing that it was something that I dreaded my father dying and then my mother died first in fact that that visit was her last visit to our house it was a complete surprise it was it was a

brain hemorrhage and part of it was what I want to do the patchwork with you where are you and then I realized that I could do a patchwork. So this book is my patchwork for my mother. What a tribute. I mean, I can't say, so sorry, Victoria, we've run out of time, but Victoria Finlay, what a tribute to your mother. Thank you so much for talking to us about fabric

and all those tales. And thank you for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for your company today. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Harland, a new five-part supernatural thriller for BBC Radio 4. Welcome to Harland, town of the future.

Things happen here sometimes, especially at night. The past does not exist here. Police in Harland have appealed for the public's help with the investigation into the disappearance of local teenager Evie Bennett. It's been concreted over and forgotten. The worst of it is still to come. This is only the beginning. She's right. It wants to suck me down into the void and destroy me. And not just me, everything.

I'm the only one here at night. What if it comes for me next? If you really want to understand something, you have to go right to the edge. What is it? Is it something real? It's coming towards you. Sarah, it's right there in front of you. Sarah!

Ah! Harland. Available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.