Woman's Hour - Family Drug and Alcohol Courts, Sandi Toksvig, Allison Schroeder

Episode Date: February 13, 2017

We discuss the future of Family Drug and Alcohol Courts in the UK. They try and find solutions for parents who have addictions and are at risk of losing their children. But despite some success it seems funding for the scheme is under threat. Jane is joined by Sophie Kershaw, Co-Director of the Family Drug and Alcohol National Unit, and Rosie, a mother who's managed to keep her third child with her because of these courts, despite losing two already.We speak to Allison Schroeder, screenwriter of Hidden Figures. It's a new film about a trio of African-American women who did the maths behind a voyage around the earth in the early days of the Space Race. She talks about this unknown and inspirational story, as well as her own personal connections to NASA.TV and radio all-rounder, Sandi Toksvig, talks to Jane about her new play called Silver Lining, as well as family life, her plans for when she's older and making the world a fairer and more equal place for women.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

Hello, this is Jane Garvey. Thank you for downloading Monday morning's edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. And here we go with the programme broadcast live on Monday the 13th of February 2017. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. Today, how the family drug and alcohol courts have helped this woman keep her child. It feels relaxed and calm. It just feels like as if you're going to have a general meeting with people that are there that are concerned for you and your child. It's a problem-solving court. It's not there just to remove your child. If you know nothing about the family drug and alcohol courts, I urge you to keep listening to begin to understand quite what

they offer women and their children. Sandy Toksvig is on the programme as well today. And we have the screenwriter behind the brilliant new film Hidden Figures. This is the stories of the African-American women who worked for NASA in the 1960s. And the screenwriter in question is Alison Schroeder. She's been nominated for an Oscar and her mum is so proud that she's planted a large sign in the family front garden that says quite simply, Alison nominated for Oscar. Now that is how you do it. So keep your thoughts coming and keep interacting with us this morning on Twitter at BBC Women's Hour. Instagram, we want you to follow us there as well. Loads of brilliant behind the scenes pictures and activity at BBC Woman's Hour Instagram. We want you to follow us there as well. Loads of brilliant behind-the-scenes pictures and activity.

At BBC Woman's Hour is where you go on Instagram. And, of course, you can email us via the website. Now, you might well know by now that Russia has decriminalised some forms of domestic violence. So-called moderate violence within families is now a civil and not a criminal offence. Punishments are more lenient. If you beat a partner or a child but don't cause what they call serious harm, you get fined,

maybe spend 15 days in jail or do community service. In the past, you may well have gone to prison for up to two years. The idea is that this new law closes a loophole that in some cases punished violence by family members more harshly than an attack by a stranger. Anna Kiri is Amnesty International's Russia Deputy Director. Welcome to the programme, Anna. And in our studio in Moscow, Larisa Ponarina, the Deputy Director of ANNA, the Centre for the Prevention of Violence in Moscow. Larisa, if I can start with you, is it possible to really know the true scale of domestic violence in Russia? Hello, I'm afraid it's impossible to know the exact numbers because there is no system of gender-aggravated statistics in the country. And we have statistics available, but I'm afraid it's too fragmentary. But still, it reflects the serious situation in Russia regarding domestic violence

against women and children. Tell us exactly what's happened then over the last couple of months to get us to the place where we now are. Well, I would like to mention first that before these two months, there was a situation which has been actually was in place for the last several years, the so-called return to their traditional values, as they put it. And that was a kind of a pressure on the parliament, which actually adopted this decriminalization regarding their domestic battery. There was a discussion, there was a very harsh discussion in the media, and there were a lot of people and women and men who were

against this decriminalization provision. As far as I know, according to Gallup polls, 58 of Russians said that domestic violence is a serious problem and it shouldn't be decriminalized. Nevertheless, in the parliament, 385 deputies out of 450 voted in favor of decriminalization of domestic violence, and only two of them were against. So this is how it was all about. However, I mean, I know it's more complex than perhaps listeners in the United Kingdom might fully appreciate, but it's hard to see how this decriminalization does anything other than start to trivialize this really important issue. Yes, that's true. And I would say that it would lead, it would contribute to their impunity of abuses of the batterers within the family. And the situation is very complicated in terms of societal attitudes.

And the attitude to domestic violence, I'm afraid, is too diminishing. It's not viewed as a serious problem by police officers, by their government officials, and by the professionals that deal with domestic violence in their daily work. And this is why I'm afraid that this decriminalization, that would be another step to the attitudes which would, which diminishes the issue and that would help the abusers feel as they would feel that they're impugned. Yes, and they can get away with it. They can simply get away with it. Yes, they can.

The worst they might face is possibly just over a fortnight in prison and it's only a civil offence anyway. It's just that the state tells them that domestic violence is okay. You can beat your children, you can beat your wife, and it's okay. You wouldn't be punished if you do it for the first time. Anna, give us Amnesty's view on all this. So Amnesty has been calling Russia to install proper measures, a comprehensive legislation to outlaw domestic violence since more than 10 years ago. Russia is really lagging behind in the world, where over 119 countries, according to UN Women, currently have legislation that outlaws domestic violence. So in the region, you know, in Kyrgyzstan, it was decriminalized, criminalized severely in 2003.

So there are restraining orders. Police officers are trained on how to address domestic violence. So it's surprising that such a big country as Russia, which also has enough wealth to actually implement this kind of legislation, hasn't done so yet. So it's a backward step as far as amnesty is concerned. What we can't do is pretend that we don't have issues that are very similar to this in Britain, not on the scale of the problem in Russia, but really up until pretty recently, it was quite routine to hit children in this country. And certainly we also still have an issue with domestic violence.

What is different about Russia, do you really believe? So I think what is really different about Russia is that, and as Larissa was mentioning, you know, basically this return, so-called return to family values has been an unofficial discourse. Well, that's the thing that baffles a lot of people in this country. What's the connection to family values? What is all this? So that the family is a private unit that the government has no right to interfere in. And that's how it's perceived and that's how it's promoted. Russia is also worried about, you know, demographic situation. So they're encouraging people and families to have more children. And that's why they want also to, quote unquote, protect the family.

And they're doing it by, for some reason, decriminalising domestic violence. And there is there is a female politician at the heart of this, we should say. Yes, a member of parliament. And who is she? So she is, I actually like I see her as this prominent sort of person who is promoting family values. This is Yelena. Yelena Mizulina.

Yeah. Go on, tell me more about her. Yeah, so she has been in charge of writing the family code. She has been in charge of promoting very unfortunately well-known legislation that outlaws so-called propaganda of homosexuality. So she has been really pushing for this sort of very outdated measures in Russia that really put a lot of families in danger as they put teenagers, LGBTI teenagers in danger. Larissa, where are the protests then in Russia? What are women and indeed men trying to do about this? Well, I would say about civil society organizations, they were trying to involve more people in the letters of protest. They were speaking on the media. And well, actually, we were always trying to do our best to express our opinion on that,

that there is nothing common between domestic violence and strong families, that healthy family cannot produce healthy children, and unhealthy families with domestic violence cannot produce healthy environment. And we were speaking against that. That was all we could actually do under the current situation, because perhaps you have heard that the civil society organization in Russia have been put under the pressure for the last five years, well, in terms of their recently adopted

the law for renown agents. This is why their attitude to the civil society organisation in the society has also been much worse than it used to be. Right, so in brief, I don't want to put words into your mouth, but it is difficult to protest at the moment. Yeah, it is very difficult. We do that, but it's not easy when 380 deputies are voting in favour of this decriminalisation bill. Thank you very much,

Larissa. Larissa Ponarina, Deputy Director of ANA, that's a Centre for the Prevention of Violence in Moscow. And you also heard from Anna Kiri of Amnesty International. Thank you very much, Anna. Now, Sandy Toksvig, firmly installed these days as the host of QI, also the co-founder of the Women's Equality Party and a playwright. Her new play, Silver Lining, is set in an old folks' home in Gravesend. Now, the floodwaters are rising and some elderly women are marooned, awaiting rescue. So I asked Sandy where the idea for all this came from. I was having lunch with Sheila Hancock,

the great and glorious Sheila Hancock, who I'd been friends with for 40 years, and we were in a perfectly nice gastro pub, and we couldn't get served. But what we noticed was that there was sort of dotted around the place there were women sitting not getting served. And we started talking about it, and I began thinking about it, and then I did some work with Tonic Theatre, who've been researching what's happening about portrayal of women on the stage. And there's a really serious issue about ethnicity and age and all those kind of things.

And women mostly, not always, but mostly are not the central element of the story in a play. And I had a go at writing a play which has got five mature actresses, one young actress and one token fellow in it. And this is my, it's hard, it's hard work, but it's my attempt to try and not just say, but to do. Just set up the idea of the play then, what's happening? So the idea is that they are in an old people's home on the riverbank in Gravesend. It is a national emergency, a tremendous storm has come and the area is being evacuated. And the women realise that the emergency services are not going to come and save them because in the list of priorities they're not terribly important.

So, because women are wonderfully resourceful, they decide to build a raft and save themselves. Honestly, whenever you visit a place like that, don't you just want to leave? I don't want to end there, is the truth of it. And I have a pact with several friends of mine to buy a house and buy in care so that we can at least enjoy time together. Yes, I mean, it's interesting you say that. These are the conversations we should all have. Very few of us ever do have them, of course.

It's really hard. And maybe our lives need rethinking about how we establish our communities. In Denmark, it's very common to place an old people's home directly next to a kindergarten. Well, that's routine. It's routine, yeah. And so one of the things that happens is that the old people who are able visit the kindergarten and read with the children and those who are not able, the children come in and visit with them. And the mix of the ages helps both.

It wasn't that long ago, a week before last, I think, that a government minister said that families have got to take more care of their older relatives, that we should, in fact, act towards our older relatives as we might do to our children if we're parents. And, I mean, that's a very, it seems to be a very sensible point. It is. The trouble with it is, if I may say, is that a lot of women, they spend their lives

maybe looking after their adult lives, looking after their children. They finally reach a moment of freedom where they might express themselves and then they find themselves responsible for the older generation. And what you're suggesting is a wonderful idea as long as the care is shared. We need to look at our young men and explain to them that the caring that needs doing in society, we need to share that out. Is this all part of the Women's Equality Party ethos? I guess that you're never far away from thinking about all that. No, no, not at all. This is me being a proper activist.

I'm doing. And every penny of the royalties, and I'm pleased to say the show is selling very well, every penny of the royalties will go directly to the Women's Equality Party. So I won't make any money out of the play whatsoever. Now, I may not be the world's greatest playwright, but I've had a go. And always my attitude to everybody is to say, yeah, whatever you can do, please, will you get up and have a go? Because unless we try, we're just going to carry on moaning. We can moan and sit on the sofa,

or we can sometimes get up and march. That also helps. We can get up and make a speech. We can be even more active and try in our own field to see if we can't make a difference. I've got to ask you about the reviews for the play, which I have to tell you have not been great. You might say you haven't read them. Fair enough. I have read some of them and they're not great. absolutely take your point that it's the easiest thing on earth to sit on the sidelines belly aching yeah and far harder to do what you've done which is to address an issue get it out there the acting's great you're a popular woman I dare say the seat the seats will sell out it won't be an issue but I've got to ask you does it actually matter what the critics say well it's a really interesting thing because I learned very early on from a wonderful old actress called Dilys Hamlet she said Sandy don't read the good stuff

and don't read the bad stuff. So it may be that I apparently got some very nice reviews for my taking over of QI. I didn't read them. If you say the review... I can't believe you didn't read it. It doesn't help you. But you must read your fan mail.

Well, it's filtered for me, if I'm honest. I always write back to the children who write to me that have read my children's books. I write handwritten letters back to them. That's very good. So I think that is hugely important. I don't make shows for the critics. I make shows for the audiences. And when you sit in the audience

and they're laughing and clapping and cheering the characters on, that'll do me. And I think the days of the critic being quite so all-important are gone. It's not constructive. Who was the great critic? Was it Hobson? Was it Hobson who said a critic ought to be a midwife and not an abortionist? And there are far too many abortionists around now in terms of creativity. And it could put people off trying to be creative. Getting a play put on at all in this country is really hard.

And getting it put on with five older women is even harder. Well, I mean, you get the theatre that you deserve. So if you go and support something like this, then you might get more of it. Tell me a little bit about QI. I mean, it's a show of a particular type, isn't it? It's essentially an opportunity for very brilliant people to show off. And you're kind of refereeing it. This is a refereeing show, yes.

How much more of a thrill is the refereeing than the participating as a panelist? Oh, well, it's fantastic. Is it better? It is honestly my dream job, I promise you. Because first of all, I get to be there for every show and not just occasionally. Do you do three a day or something? We make two usually. Right, OK.

And also I'm very involved in the creation of the scripts. And that is the thing that interests me most. And it's that, you know, it's the classic BBC formula. It's informative and entertainment. Hopefully it's both. It's what we're all about. It is, my darling. Every day. Okay, I want you to tell me

what's your favourite factoid that you've unearthed or the elves have unearthed on QI in the course of your tenure? I'm trying to think of one. Oh, I love the bees who vibrate and shake pollen out of the flower. They don't even bother to touch the flower. They just shake it. And they have a little sort of basket on their hip and they carry it in this, all the stuff that they need, they carry it in a little basket on their hip. I mean, it's those things that you just think, oh, that's so clever. We are in the age of post-truth and alternative facts and President Trump, obviously. I mean, it's those things that you just think, oh, that's so clever. We are in the age of post-truth and alternative facts and President Trump, obviously. I mean, the Women's Equality Party, do you have an American involvement?

We are looking to see if we can't set up in the United States and indeed globally, because I think that's going to be the only answer. And I have met many of the women involved in the women's marches and so on. And so we are absolutely trying to make coordinated efforts together. And what do you, from your conversations with women of the activists you've spoken to in the women's marches and so on. And so we are absolutely trying to make coordinated efforts together. And what do you, from your conversations with women of the activists you've spoken to in the States, how would you determine their mood? What would you say about it? Mostly frightened, actually. Is that a slighting? I mean, this man has been democratically elected. He might not like the electoral college system, but that's how it goes and that's how it rolls. And he's

won and he's there. No, no, no, no. That doesn't mean that you can't still be passionate about what you believe in. So even if one was, for example, in this country, a Remainer, you can still wish that the government might in their attempts to make Brexit happen, ensure that all the women's rights which were enshrined in EU law continue to be enshrined in British law. But I suppose to some people you epitomise the liberal, pinko-leaning, Hampstead coterie of people who've always been in charge of things. You know what I mean.

Would the tiger afford to live in Hampstead, yes. Well, how can you ever persuade those sort of people that maybe you've got a good point to make? I think you have to continue to make the reasonable argument and you have to do it on many fronts. It's the old fashioned consciousness raising. We're back there where feminism was in the 70s. And I'm doing this as much for my son as I am for my wonderful daughters. I think it's genuinely better for everybody.

And then in our own worlds, we have to stand up and say, am I being paid the same? Am I getting the same rights? I won't be spoken to like this. I'm not going to be bullied in the workplace. So is that how you approached how much you get paid for QI? I have an agent for that. Well, no, I mean, but your agent presumably must have known. I mean, the previous host was Mr Fry.

Oh, yes, it was, yeah. And I dare say he took home a healthy whack. I suspect he probably did. But there's no way the BBC or the production company in charge would dare pay you less. I wouldn't know. It's a matter of secrecy what people get paid. That's handy, isn't it? It is. I have no idea what he got at all. What if you found out he'd earned twice as much?

Well, there are those who say he would deserve it. I don't know. It's not for me to put a price on my own work. I hope that women who do the same job as men will get paid the same. And that is one of the principles of the Women's Equality Party. We cannot have it that women continue to have a pay gap. It just seems to me one of those things

you just think, really? Now, 2017? So it's shocking to me that that's still going on. And I very much hope that one day that my political party won't exist, I can be quiet and go home and read all the books I haven't read,

listen to all the music there is to listen to. And, shall I tell you a secret? Please. Play with my grandson who's just been born. When was that? Ten days ago. Oh. And I hope one day he doesn't...

When you mentioned him, your face changed and went into that rather... It's kind of slightly otherworldly, doting, grandmotherly look. And I get it. And I get it now. I'm so in love with him. I'm so in love with the boy that the Daily Mail is going to feel really unpleasant about it. I mean, I'm really besotted. And I don't want him to have to listen to these same conversations when he's an adult. Let's get the job done.

And if people dislike me on the way, it's really, I don't care. I just, there's work to do and I'm not just going to talk about it, I'm going to get up and do it. She is a grandmother, Sandy Toksvig. Congratulations to her and her daughter and the play Silver Lining is touring.

It's currently on at the Rose Theatre in Kingston in Surrey, but it's going to lots of other places and Annie has tweeted to say she went on Saturday and thought it was great so there you go you don't always have to take for granted what the critics say, go and investigate yourself that was Sandy, if you haven't

already followed us on Instagram why ever not, at BBC Woman's Hour great behind the scenes pictures inspiring quotes from our guests and a teaser of our latest video, it is a moving BBC Woman's Hour. Great behind-the-scenes pictures, inspiring quotes from our guests and a teaser of our latest video. It is a moving interview with the former model, Victoire Dozer, who was on the programme last week talking to Jenny about the unhealthy pressures of modelling. She was the young woman who had to exist on three apples a day.

The full video, if you want to see it, is on the Woman's Hour website. The UK's first family drug and alcohol court was set up in London in 2008. It's an American idea. The court works to stop children being taken into care because of their parents' addiction. It is thought that two-thirds of all child removals are because of drug and alcohol problems. And the court worked. More mothers working with these courts kicked their addictions and got their children back. The scheme expanded and there are 16 courts across the country, but now they fear that their funding is under threat. I've been talking to Sophie Kershaw, who's co-director of the Family Drug and Alcohol

National Unit, and to a woman we're calling Rosie, a mother who's now clean and able to take care of her youngest child, her daughter. Her elder children were both removed from her care. Now, Rosie told me that she'd been through the traditional court system before she was referred to the Family Drug and Alcohol Court. I asked her about her experience in the traditional court system. I was treated like a criminal.

I went into a court hearing. I was told that you're not doing this right. I was very patronised and demoralised, and I didn't feel like a mum. Like I said, I felt like a criminal because I had a problem with drugs. I wasn't supported with that condition. And it was during these court hearings that your children were taken into care? My first child was put into foster care because I wanted to sort myself out,

but I wasn't supported through that process. I relapsed, and instead of being supported through that relapse, I was punished, being told, you will never get your son back again so with that I then continued to use I fell pregnant with my second child suffered with mental health issues postnatal depression and the grievance of my first loss of my first child and I didn't connect with my second child so I left her in the placement to go to her dad and then continued using drugs and then I discovered I was pregnant with my third child, thinking, what is going on?

I didn't need another child to be taken away. I got involved with the midwifery team up in the hospital that I was at. And she referred me over to FDAC. So FDAC, tell us a bit more about what that means. I mean, is it a physical courtroom? Yeah, yeah, but it doesn't feel like a courtroom. Right, and why doesn't it feel like a courtroom? Why? Because it feels relaxed and calm.

It just feels like as if you're going to have a general meeting with people that are there that are concerned for you and your child. The court is there to help. It's a problem-solving court. It's not there just to and your child. The court is there to help. It's a problem-solving court. It's not there just to remove your child. It gives you the capability to actually process your problems and your situations with the support of your worker. And how have they helped you?

How have they helped me? They've supported me through my transition from the mother and baby foster placement into my own accommodation, going to day programmes, getting engaged with the children's services. They've helped me start the involvement with counselling or psychotherapy regarding my childhood and also how to believe in myself. If it wasn't for the FDAC process, it just would not have happened because I would not have engaged with any of these services because I don't do it generally. In my history, I've seen through my history, I don't do this stuff. And because you've been allowed to look after your third child,

that has helped you recover? It has made you recover? Definitely, yeah. It was a big wake-up call. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How old are you, Rosie? 37. 37, and you're from London?

Yeah. Separated childhood from my parents, flitted back between my mum's, my dad's, my mum's, my dad's. My dad's not the sort of person that you'd be having children around. My mum was physically violent, emotionally detached, everything that you wouldn't want for a family environment. I then went through numerous foster placements,

didn't feel that I belonged anywhere, ended up in children's homes, young offenders' institutes, sleeping rough, in and out of adult prison, took my first illegal substance when I was 11, which was a spliff. I was doing that all weekend until I was about 13, started taking ecstasy, acid, no care for myself. And then when I found class like heroin and crack, I didn't care anymore.

It just killed any feeling I had. And I liked that feeling that I didn't feel. I could have happily at that stage died in a ditch for all I care. But then after so many years of taking the drugs and losing people that I cared about, it started to become a bit of a wake-up call but I couldn't get out of that cycle. I didn't know how to not stop using.

I couldn't do that on my own. So what about the support you're now getting? How are you now? Nearly two years clean. Absolutely happy. I've got absolutely nothing, but I have everything. And it is amazing. I've got people in my life that actually care about me

and I care about them, and they're genuine people. And you've got somewhere nice to live? Yeah. That's all right? Yeah. And it's you and your little girl? Yeah, me and my little one. Your first child has now been adopted.

Your second child lives with... Her dad. Right. And now it's you and your baby. Yeah. And you are going to make a success of this, you're sure of that? Yeah, definitely. Yeah, 100%.

And without FDAC, without the intervention of that court? It wouldn't have happened. And another child might have ended up in care? She would have. Yeah, she would have been adopted already by now. Sophie, for anyone who still doesn't quite understand after listening to, I mean, that's powerful testimony from Rosie there. But how many people do go through these FDAC courts? Are they all over Britain? What's the state of play? So the Family Drug and Alcohol Court, FDAC, started back in 2008

and it was really just in a number of London boroughs at that stage. The rollout started happening about two years ago. We now have 16 courts across the country, across 21 local authorities. So many more families are actually getting to go through FDAC, although the numbers are still small. Yes, so how small? So last year we think about 200 families to go through FDAC, although the numbers are still small. Yes, so how small? So last year, we think about 200 families were seen through FDAC. And the point of them is to offer opportunities for people like Rosie,

who've had precious little luck in their lives, to turn their lives around. But to be blunt about it, it saves council taxpayers money, doesn't it? FDAC achieves a number of things. As you said, it really aims to give parents the best opportunity to turn around their lives, to address their problems and parent their children safely. It also gives a better sense of justice. So parents experience it as a better way of doing care proceedings. But thirdly, it does save money. So although there may be some immediate savings to the local authority, so if children manage to go home to the care of their parents, you're saving on potential foster care costs.

Those are less spent on legal costs and contested hearings because many more parents, even if they don't get their children back, feel like they've had a fair experience of court, so they don't necessarily get into those long, gruelling fights at the end of care proceedings. But there are also wider savings to the public purse that happen over time. Like what?

So the Centre for Justice Innovation did a value for money business case on FDAC. And for every £1 spent, there's £2.30 saved. And that's across not only children's services, public health, the criminal justice system. So there are benefits downstream. And of course, the savings are long term rather than short term. And short term is how everybody seems to think. Absolutely. Local authorities are having to make drastic cuts. And unfortunately, not all local authorities even have the money to start up an FDAC. Okay, so how long does someone like Rosie have to turn their life around if they have an involvement with FDAC? FDAC's really driven by the timescales for the child. So we would do an assessment right at the beginning of proceedings to see what the age of the child is and how long this child can wait.

And where does the child go when this waiting happens? Some children will stay with family members, others will come into the foster care system, and some children will remain with their parents while they're working through FDAC. So it can be a number of different options. And FDAC is involved on a daily basis? So families will come in front of the judge every fortnight. District Judge Crichton, who kind of pioneered FDAC a number of years ago, he likens it to Weight Watchers. So you have to come back every fortnight and get on the judicial scales to see how well you're, what progress the parent's making.

In between times, attached to the court is this specialist therapeutic team. So every family has one or two key workers who are meeting them up to three or four times a week sometimes. Parents come in to be drug and alcohol tested. They come in to be drug and alcohol tested, they come in for key work. So they're seeing the team a number of times a week. But on top of that, the specialist team will have referred the parents into the local treatment programme. So they become embedded in local community support and treatment. And do they have years of this or six months? What? Care proceedings, generally, there's an expectation that proceedings can take up to 26 weeks.

If a parent is making progress, then we will look to see whether we can extend those proceedings. Sometimes we'll start work earlier. So I know with Rosie, she was on what we call our early FDAC programme, which is working with parents who've previously had a child removed. We started work with Rosie when she was 25 weeks pregnant. When you describe the numbers of people involved and the amount of time, this is an expensive-sounding project. The average cost is about £12,000 per family,

and that's often working with a mother, father and multiple children. So actually I'd say it's not an expensive service. It's very much in line with that kind of intervention that local authorities put in for complex families. FDAC continues to have more parents address their substance misuse than in the ordinary proceedings. That's about 48% versus 25%. And five years later, those families are still doing better than the families in ordinary proceedings. Nevertheless, that gives... So there's a kind of lasting change that comes with FDAC.

Sure, I'm not knocking the success rate, but the fact that the majority still continue to use whatever substance they're involved with is a real illustration of just how difficult this... This is an uphill battle you're waging here. The families that we work with in FDAC, they have complex difficulties. Most of the families that we're working with have suffered childhood trauma, different abuses they've been growing up,

and then been in abusive relationships during their adulthood. Those underlying problems have really driven them to the substance misuse. So these are really entrenched difficulties. The substance misuse has often, I think Rosie put it well, been a solution to the other problems. Well, that was Sophie Kershaw, who's co-director of the Family Drug and Alcohol National Unit. And you also heard from the woman we're calling Rosie. The best of luck to Rosie and to her young daughter. It is actually this week, Children of Alcoholics Week. And you might recall that earlier this year, around about the 9th of January,

we did do a couple of interviews actually about what it's like to grow up with an alcoholic parent. So if you missed that, you can find those interviews on the Woman's Hour website. You have until midnight tonight to apply for the Women's Hour Craft Prize. If you need some encouragement, here's some UAL Central Saint Martin students to inspire you. It kind of gets me away from my own thoughts, I think. I think it's really amazing to be able to produce something unique that no one else can do. I think just the human nature is that you want something to hold, to look at, to smell, to feel, to touch.

Using my hands and the tantric skill in that is really important for my happiness. It's really exciting to have a loose thread and then be able to have an actual piece of fabric that you've made yourself. There is so much talent out there and we really want to celebrate it. So don't miss out. If you think you could enter, go to our website now.

Midnight is the deadline. The top prize, £10,000 and the chance to exhibit at the V&A. Not bad, is it? Hidden Figures is a brilliant film about the American space programme in the 1960s. Now, if you think you know that story, think again, because the focus here is rather different. It's on the African-American women mathematicians who helped NASA take on the Russians and win. And the screenplay is written by Alison Schroeder, who's here. Alison, good morning to you. Good morning. Congratulations. Nominated for an Oscar. And your mom, as we said at the beginning of the programme, has celebrated in her own way by doing? Making a sign for the front lawn. Which says? Alison nominated for an Oscar. I think she's a bit proud. I think she might be. I'd like to give her an Oscar for best mum. I hope she gets to hear this

on the web. I'm sure she will. So the story is about Katherine Johnson, Dorothy Vaughan, and Mary Jackson. Now, tell me, first of all, about Katherine Johnson, who I think most people agree is the pivotal figure. Yes. She's still alive today. And she worked at NASA. And during the 60s, she worked on John Glenn's mission. And she was an incredible mathematician. And she actually invented the math that helped him get into orbit and then re-enter and figure out his landing coordinates. And until now, it's been a very unknown story, really. But she faced a lot of sexism. She faced a lot of racism.

And sort of her attitude was, I'm just going to keep showing up and doing the job. And that's exactly what she did. And Dorothy Vaughan and Mary Jackson? They were her colleagues and her friends. And Mary Jackson was the first female aeronautical, black female aeronautical engineer in both NASA and the US. And she actually had to petition the courts to take the classes necessary. And then Dorothy Vaughn was really interesting. She saw the coming technology. She saw that these human computers doing the math would be replaced by machines. And so she trained herself in programming along with her girls. Yeah, I mean, this is something we did discuss recently, along with the author

Deva Sabel, who wrote, I'm sure you're aware of it, the book, The Glass Universe, about the Harvard Observatory. And this was all new to me, because women, people were called computers. That's right. I mean, that's, it seems to us totally bizarre. Right. But back, you know, during World War II, there just weren't enough men around to do the math. And so they enlisted women and it just became part of the culture. And the men said, well, we don't want to sit there with sly rulers doing math by hand all day. So these women toiled away in the rooms and there was the black computers and there were the white computers.

And they were segregated. They were segregated. And this obviously is also a very important part of this story. I have to put it to you that some people say certain scenes have been invented to make white people feel better about themselves. The scene that moved me as a white woman is the scene in which the boss, who's played by Kevin Costner, finds out about the fact that Catherine Johnson has to go to a different toilet to her co-workers. And he dismantles the sign that says coloured toilet. Yes. Did that happen? He did it with a memo, not a sledgehammer. But he did get

rid of the coloured bathrooms because of the women he worked with. And in real life, Kevin Costner's character was actually a few men that we put together. And so Katherine Johnson worked in the space task group, and she had these two bosses at one point that she became friends with, and they would go to her churches and they would support her there. And when they realized about the segregated bathrooms, they raised it up the flagpole and they got rid of them. And when my research, I read about Mary Jackson

when she was put on the new side of campus, these white women sort of laughed at her when she asked where her bathroom was. And she learned she would have to walk half a mile just to go. And their uniform was that they had to wear pumps, nylons, skirts, and a pearl necklace if possible. And I just thought as a woman, good God, the Virginia heat and those Virginia winters.

And she's having to walk just to use the restroom. And it didn't work for her storyline in the movie. But I thought, I can't leave this out. Well, it's great. It's movie gold dust. We can't. And so we moved it to Catherine. But you understand the misgivings that some people have.

I can sit there as a white woman glorying in Kevin Costner's ability to dismantle segregation. But of course, that wasn't quite how it was. But this is Hollywood and things are slightly different. Well, it is. And for me, it was more about her speech and her finally getting to stand up. I mean, as a woman, I'm, you know, I'm a white woman. But as a woman, a lot of times I wanted to tell off my boss, you know, and you don't because you're worried you're going to get fired. And so her getting to stand up to them, she changed him, she changed that room. And she was the catalyst for it ultimately coming down. But I think that that's, you know, fortunately, or unfortunately, how segregation and change works is you need the, you know, the people that are in charge to make the change. Tell me a bit about your own association to NASA. Your grandparents were there.

Yes. So I grew up by Cape Canaveral in Florida, and my grandfather was an engineer on the Mercury capsule, and Grandma went to visit him and saw a sign that said, Learn computers. And she thought, I can do that. So she became a computer programmer for NASA and worked all the way through the shuttle mission.

And then I interned there all through high school because I was a big geek, and they interviewed me, and I loved math and science. And so I learned how to make a circuit board. I learned binary coding. I got to touch the crops that went into space. And then I worked for a missile launch company after my freshman year of Stanford. And I think you got to, did you touch the space shuttle? We weren't allowed to. So they walked into the room and before they opened the door, they said, whatever you do, don't reach up or it'll cost your parents $10,000. And then we walked in and there was the shuttle above us and it was all the heat shields. So hands in the pockets fast.

Yes, I'd be absolutely terrified. What is the scale of that thing? I can't imagine. It's massive. I mean, it's I mean, it's I guess it's a bit like being under an airplane, but it just feels much more magical. But it is magical. It is magical. And I have to say, it's increasingly feels much more magical. But it is magical. It is magical. And I have to say, it's increasingly magical, precisely because we're not doing it anymore.

We're not. And we're not. And you can go to NASA now and you can actually touch the heat shields and see it. And I think one of the things I love the most about working at NASA was everybody's a part of it. And you feel that in the movie. And there's a respect from, you know, the people that sew the heat shield to the people that work in the cafeteria to every mathematician. It's a group effort. And so we tried to put that in the movie. And there's a respect from, you know, the people that sew the heat shield to the people that work in the cafeteria to every mathematician. It's a group effort. And so we tried to put that in the movie. And that's ultimately how they succeed. And it's gone.

And there isn't any obvious sign that great space adventures are likely to happen in the near future. Oh, I still have hope. Do you? I do. What do you think might happen? What about a trip to Mars in my lifetime? Maybe. I mean, who knows? I definitely think we're going to go out there and I think we're going to explore. I think that people want to just go to space just for the excitement. I'm thinking maybe Space Hotel might be the next thing. What about just rich people

going into space? That seems to be the latest thing. It does seem to be the latest thing. I'd like the regular people to get to go too. Yeah, this regular person won't be queuing up, I have to say. I'm a bit, frankly, petrified. Alison, I know you're going to stay with us for the podcast. There'll be more about the whole business of screenwriting, which absolutely fascinates me, in the podcast available later. But I

do urge you to get to see Hidden Figures if you possibly can. If you're interested in civil rights, if you're interested in mathematics, if you're interested in space, this is the film for you. It's an untold story thus far. So it's really important stuff. Thank you very much, Alison. We should say that Madeleine Fontaine, the costume designer for Jackie, she did win a BAFTA last night. Alison came second, or perhaps was it third? We'll never know. My mum, I'm still first in my mother's eyes. You certainly are. And you can hear the interview with Madeleine Fonteyn

on the Woman's Hour website. Lots of love for Sandy Toksvig. So thanks to everybody who commented on that. And later in the podcast, available round about early afternoon, you can hear more from the screenwriter Alison Schroeder, who, and I forgot to ask her about how she broke her coccyx in childbirth.

So we'll discuss that in full and frank detail in the podcast available later. Tomorrow is our Valentine's Day special. Alison Schroder who's still with me in our podcast lounge which is entirely a figment of my imagination but it sounds a bit more interesting than just still in the studio with me. It does. Because you don't have a place to go and your flight back home is not until tomorrow. That's right. So you're happy to linger. I want to know a bit more about how you get a brilliant story into a Hollywood film because your past you wrote Mean Girls 2. Yes the classic Mean Girls 2. And to many people it is a classic Alison but it doesn't necessarily that to me doesn't make me think here's the woman I want to write the screenplay

for a film about NASA. That's right I mean I think I think I was, I'm kind of a scrawny, bubbly, blonde thing. And they would look at me and think she can write teen comedy. And so I got pigeonholed for a long time in that. But I would write constantly in my spare time. And I wrote an Agatha Christie script about her missing 11 days. And the producers of Hidden Figures got a hold of it and read it and just loved it and said, Oh, she can do a strong of Hidden Figures got a hold of it and read it and just loved it and said, oh, she can do a strong woman in a period piece with an intricate plot. And they sent me the book proposal having no idea about my NASA background. And this started out sort of as a small indie film.

And so we got on the phone. I said to Donna July, the producer, I said, I was born to write this. And she thought, oh, God, Hollywood people will say anything. And then I told her about NASA. About your backstory. And she said, can you do some of the math? And I said, oh, God, Hollywood people say anything. And then I told her about your backstory. Yeah. And she said, Can you do some of the math? And I said, Well, I can do some I have a favorite calculus variable, which a lot of writers don't. And, you know, because I'm a dork. And that was it. I pitched her a few scenes. And off we went. And the author was actually writing the book the same time as the script was being written.

And so she just gave me all of her research. And that's what I did. I dug into the research and then off I went. But it takes years, doesn't it? I had four weeks. Four weeks? Yes. And you delivered? We had four weeks for research and I had 12 weeks for the first script because again, we were tiny and we were trying to do it fast. And Donna, the producer, just knew

this was going to be in the zeitgeist. She knew that this story was needed. And every time we told someone about these women, they thought, how can that be true? How can we not know that? And so we knew people wanted this. And so 12 weeks for first draft, and then we did notes back and forth for about three months.

And then we sent it out for a director. And Ted Melfi came on board in Fox 2000. And six months later, you know, we were in pre-production and on set. And meanwhile, you are pregnant. Will you find out you're pregnant? Yes, I'm pregnant on set. And I, you know, I wanted to do a little cameo. So I got in full costume with the girdle. And then I went to the bathroom and nobody knew I was pregnant. And I secretly, you know, Googled girdle pregnancy and said, bad idea. And I thought, oh, God,

get it off, get it off. And you I thought, oh, God, get it off. Get it off. And you did get it off. I did get it off. And your daughter is now 12 weeks old, I should say, which comes with its own issues because you are now, because of your own talent, I don't know, you've ended up in awards season. You've got to go everywhere. And because you're not a man and you can't wear a black tie, you've got to find a dress. Yes. And you broke your coccyx.

And I broke my coccyx. Yes. So you have a special cushion. I have a special cushion and I even got a really nice black cover for it so that when I take it to BAFTA and the Oscars, it looks very sleek. It's going to the Oscars as well. It's going to the Oscars. My husband carries it, like the good feminist he is.

He has a special bag and he carries my pillow. But yes, she came out and it turns out for select women, not many, you, you can fracture what we call the tailbone, coccyx in the States. And so she came out scrappy. You know, little Emily really wanted to make a bang. And so it's been a rough recovery. And two and a half weeks after giving birth, I was on the red carpet for the premiere in New York. And trying to just get a dress for that was terrifying. You managed it, though.

I managed it, and I thought I looked pretty good, and then I washed my first red carpet a few days later and had to beg the security to give me a janitor's closet to pump in. You know, very glamorous stuff. And now, actually, I cold-called my wedding dress designer, and she's making me a dress for the Oscars. Any idea what it's going to be like? I know it'll be jewel tone and A-line and hopefully fabulous.

I know it'll be fabulous. Your mum, I know, thought you should have won the BAFTA and probably thinks she should win everything. You are more likely to win the Oscar, aren't you? We are sort of the dark horse rising. I think this movie came out of nowhere a bit for people and The Word of Mouth has been incredible

and it's done great at the box office. It is a great film. Thank you. I think the best part is the kids and the field trips and the students and they're dressing up like Mary Jackson and Dorothy Vaughan and Catherine Jones. I was going to say, the clothes are amazing. Amazing.

And that was a conscious effort. We didn't want to frumpify them. We didn't want to make them look geeky. You know, these were fierce, beautiful women and they look it. I think, yes, they really do. And I have to say, if I had a favorite age of fashion, it would be those amazing fitted dresses of the 1960s. Yes. Every woman looks great in a dress like that. Yes. Well, let's give a nod to the costume designer. Who is it? Renee. I'm blanking on her last name, but she was brilliant on set. And also, Wynne Thomas, the production designer, was brilliant. And they bring it to life so spectacularly.

Just moving seamlessly, the conversation back to your coccyx. When will it heal? Six months. Six months from now. So there's a long road ahead. I've had to buy a computer so that I can lie in bed and work with it suspended above me. And the next film is about? I'm not sure.

I'm doing another period piece. I have a mini series I want to do on more hidden women of history. Any idea which women might feature? Well, it's about this little thing called the American Revolution. So it may not be so popular. It doesn't mean a thing to us, I'm afraid. I know. It didn't happen. But yeah, some of the great women that we don't know about. And sexism in Hollywood't mean a thing to us, I'm afraid. I know. It didn't happen. But yeah,

some of the great women that we don't know about. And sexism in Hollywood still a thing? Doesn't exist. No, rampant sexism. You know, there's those

that are just wanting more stories about women and are embracing it and then there's still a few people that I walk into a meeting and I walk out afterwards

going, did that really happen? Well, what do they say to you? I'll pitch a movie about a female test pilot and they'll say, and she's the best. And they'll say, whoa, whoa, whoa, a female pilot that's the best? I don't believe it. And I'll say, well, women actually often can see better and reflexes are faster and they use less life support. And they'll say, I don't believe it.

Give me all the facts you want and I still won't believe it when I see it on screen. So you lean back and sort of smile and think, when will this meeting be over? Maybe the truth is there are man facts and there are woman facts.

Yes, that's true. That's true, maybe. So there's the right facts and the wrong facts. Yeah, the wrong facts. You can take your pick these days. Alison, it's been great to spend time with you.

Thank you very much for being on the programme. Congratulations and may your mum's Oscar dreams come true. It's two weeks time, isn't it? Two weeks. She's going with me. She's got her dress picked out and she is very excited. Alison will be the only person sitting on a special coccyx friendly cushion on the 26th of February. So best of luck to you. Thank you. And on the programme tomorrow. Well, it's just a Valentine's Day special. As my

producers keep pointing out, there is nothing special yet about tomorrow's programme. But trust me, everything about tomorrow's programme is going to be special. Make sure you don't miss it. The programme and the podcast hope to see you then. Thank you very much for listening to this. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.