Woman's Hour - Family farming with Janice and Matt Baker; New maternal mental health hubs; Author Susan Spindler; Statues of famous women

Episode Date: April 6, 2021

What do you do, when your mother is in a spot of bother? You run to help…of course! That’s the situation the Countryfile and former One Show presenter Matt Baker found himself in last summer, when his mum Janice had a serious accident with some sheep, and was unable to continue with the day to day running of the family farm in the Durham Hills. Their story is documented in a four part series currently on More4 called Matt Baker: Our Farm in the Dales. Emma speaks to Janice and Matt.It's been announced that thousands of new, expectant or bereaved mothers will receive help and support for mental health problems through dozens of new dedicated hubs which are being set up across England. The hubs will bring together maternity services, reproductive health and psychological therapy under one roof as part of the NHS Long Term Plan. Around 6,000 women will receive care and treatment for a wide range of mental health issues from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) after giving birth to others with a severe fear of childbirth. Emma gets reactions to the news from Sarah Hughes, Chief Executive of campaigning charity Centre for Mental Health and Dr Alain Gregoire, President of the Maternal Mental Health Alliance.Another statue of a strong woman has made the headlines. Last year it was Mary Wollstonecraft. Now it's Greta Thunberg. A statue of the 18 year old environmentalist was unveiled in Winchester last week but some think it's a waste of money. Emma is joined by Christine Charlesworth, the statue's creator, who's not only made Greta during lockdown but two other British feminist icons as well.Susan Spindler's first novel Surrogate tells the story of Ruth who, at the age of 54, volunteers to carry a baby for her daughter, who has just had her seventh miscarriage. But how selfless is Ruth's kind offer? She has done all of the research, taken the hormones, done the tests, thought of everything. What she doesn't know is how being her daughter's surrogate will make her feel and the upheaval it will cause in all of her relationships. Susan tells Emma how she researched the story.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning. The time warp that was the Easter weekend is now over. We've landed on Tuesday together and perhaps it was the first weekend in a while you've seen friends or family. Knackering, isn't it? Socialising. We're all limbering back up. But speaking of limbering up and family, today we're in the market to hear your stories of dealing with power reversals in the family. What has it been like for you and your family as your parents have got older and you need to step in and help out and those roles start shifting?

Has it gone down okay or has there been tension? Today, we're going to be talking to the 65-year-old farmer, Janice Baker, who was trampled by one of her own sheep. And now her son, whom you may have heard of, the TV presenter, former co-host of The One Show, Matt Baker, has returned to the family farm to keep that particular show on the road. And while you might not have had quite that experience, we're also talking about a book today called Surrogate by Susan Spindler that covers the theme of role reversal within families, what happens when you disrupt the natural order. So perhaps get in touch with us from either perspective. If you're thinking about this from the parental perspective, what has it been like accepting, as you may see them,

orders from your children? As those orders begin to shift within families, tell us what it's been like for you. If your parents have got older, how are you coping with some of the responsibilities and trials and tribulations that brings? And the other way around, if you're having to now rely perhaps on your children in a way you hadn't thought to before, tell us what that has been like. 84844 is the number you need to text. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or email us through our website.

Knowing how sensitive this can be, you do not have to give your real name and just get in touch really to share so you can hear from others as well, and perhaps they may be in the same position. Also on today's programme, the sculpture of a new statue of Greta Thunberg and other feminist icons. She's been very busy, this particular sculpture, during the lockdown.

Do you appreciate having more female statues, though? We're living in an era of some wanting to tear statues down. What is it like for you if you see more women popping up? Or does it not matter a jot to you perhaps our first story though today will greatly matter to you or someone you care about because it's been announced that thousands of new expectant or bereaved mothers will help receive help and support for mental health problems through dozens of new dedicated hubs which are being set up across the country the 26 new hubs will bring together maternity

services, reproductive health and psychological therapy under one roof as part of the NHS long term plan. Around 6,000 women will receive care and treatment for a wide range of mental health issues from post-traumatic stress disorder after giving birth to others with a severe fear of childbirth as well as course, offering psychological therapies for new and expectant mums. The clinics will also provide training for maternity staff and midwives. Ten sites will be up and running within months, as the remainder opening by April 2022,

and every area in England will have one by April 2024 as part of this NHS long-term plan to increase access to psychological support for women before, during and after pregnancy. Claire Murdoch, the National Director of Mental Health at NHS England, says the centres were introduced after consulting parents. When any of us have a complex issue or problem, a frequent complaint is I have to tell my story several times, making sure that as far as possible, we've got all of the expertise wrapped around the woman and her baby or her pregnancy or her family. It seems to us is absolutely what's required. Just to be clear, this is we're talking about centres in England. I'm joined now by Sarah Hughes, Chief Executive for the Centre for Mental Health, and Dr Alan Gregoire,

President of the Maternal Mental Health Alliance, which is a charity and coalition of over 100 organisations working together with experts by experience and clinicians to achieve the vision of mental health for women and families. Sarah, if I could come to you first,

what's your reaction to this announcement? Well, I mean, Claire couldn't put it better myself, actually. I mean, I think what we're talking about here is an opportunity to accelerate access to services that we've wanted for such a long time. I think that Claire describes care wrapping around the woman, her baby, her family. That's exactly the vision. What we're talking about is maternity services, having awareness around mental health problems, as well as the mental health team having absolute integration with midwives and health visitors, etc, for the benefit of the woman who often is

incredibly isolated during those first few months and certainly pre-birth in some instances. But what difference will this mean in terms of once you've also had a baby, if you're hopefully in that situation, with health visitors and midwives? How do you think this should fit in with that? Well, until now, I think all of those services have been fairly siloed. So the woman hasn't had that sense of wrapping around. What we're talking about now is an opportunity for all of these teams to potentially be co-located. So they're in the same place, able to share information, able to share good practice, new ideas, as well as kind

of really safeguarding and thinking about the needs of the woman and their families. I think that we have got to get to a situation where care is much more integrated across physical and mental health. And these hubs will give us an opportunity to do that in a way that we've never been able to do before. Dr. Alan Gregoire, you have got an access to this already through your own work. Tell us about these sites, how you see them working? Well, with physical health during maternity, we've long understood that it's really, really important for mothers, for babies and for families to have good care right the way from conception with maternity services, providing

midwifery and beyond that that health visitors carrying on with that support to mothers and their families but we simply haven't had that with mental health even though mental health problems are more common than physical health problems in maternity and more devastating in terms of impact on women's ability to function, impact on parents, and indeed, for many children, impact on children that can be lasting, but isn't inevitable, and none of that is irreversible. So we know that if we provide care, the outcomes for everybody

can be very much better. And at last, even though the research has been telling us this for a long time, at last, we have NHS services starting to deliver. And NHS England has really been at the forefront of doing this worldwide, actually. This isn't just in the UK that they're leading, but worldwide. These are the sorts of services that women should be expecting that science tells us is not only effective, but cost efficient, because this averts problems further down the line. And in my local service in Shropshire, where I'm working at the moment, we are seeing women, their partners, their children and families receiving services that simply didn't exist five years ago with these new developments.

And just to be clear, once you're pregnant, you go in to your local GP and get referred to one of these hubs and then you're in that system. Is that how it works? Yes. Well, straight from the time that you go to a maternity service for the so-called booking appointment, when you first have contact with a midwife, which you don't have to go through your GP to do, actually. You can go direct to a maternity service if you know you're pregnant from that moment the idea with this is that your physical care and your mental health are there are being looked after by people who know what they're doing both in the physical side which we've had for a long time but also in in the mental health side. But that's a concern, isn't it? Let's bring Sarah back in on this. Are you concerned? I've already seen some concerns this morning from the Royal College of Nursing that we will have the staff

to run these hubs at a time when the NHS has been, you know, on the front line of a global pandemic, and we haven't seen perhaps what's been going on with nurses to always be the most encouraging. Sarah, what's your view on that? I mean, look, I think you've hit upon the biggest challenge that we're facing right now, actually, across mental health services generally. The workforce, we haven't got the numbers, we haven't got the people in place as yet. But what we are trying to do is accelerate that process of recruitment, training and getting them embedded in services. But we cannot underestimate the challenge. And I think that, you know, my plea is to those people out there considering a role in mental health, now is the time.

We need you today, but we will put you through training. We'll get you the best possible kind of support to help you deliver, you know, the essential services that we need now more than any other time. And I think that whilst we are facing this workforce challenge, I do feel optimistic because people are also thinking, you know, mental health is important. I want to work in that field. I want, so we're seeing huge numbers coming to mental health in terms of people wanting to be practitioners. We're not there yet. So please do advocate for us and encourage people to come and work in mental health.

With what we just heard from Alan, though, that people will be thinking perhaps at home, maybe they did have a bit of support during their pregnancy or when they were at this stage of their life. And yes, at the same time, we're hearing that this is cutting edge from NHS England. Why do you think there has been this gap until now? I mean, stigma has a huge amount to play here. I think that stigma in terms of mental health delivery has been profound for decades. I think especially in perinatal mental health terms, women are still really frightened about coming forward. It's always the kind of Cinderella of Cinderella services in many respects because of all of those complexities around safeguarding children, women worried that

it will have an impact on their ability to retain their children. I mean there's so many underlying concerns you know not being able to talk about it in your family. I think that as Alan said that the research has been available for a very long time. NHS England have been for many years. In fact, I was at the benefit of one of the first perinatal mental health services over 10 years ago when I experienced myself postnatal depression. And that was one of the first teams that were in, you know, embedded in the NHS as a whole. So I think, you know, we're getting there, but it's taken a long time. These hubs do represent a tipping point. And we must celebrate that.

Do you worry about staffing, Alan? Do you worry that this is a good idea, but it won't deliver for women? It is possible to get staff if you have the investment. And NHS England centrally have made this commitment to investment. One of the concerns that we have working on the ground, I and my colleagues, is that the CCGs who are there to distribute this money, which is coming from the centre for these services,

may divert the money, the clinical commissioning groups. And we are seeing them planning to divert this money to other services. And this is what has always happened historically with mental health developments, is money has been diverted to the kind of blood on the floor, dramatic acute hospital services. health developments is money has been diverted to the kind of blood on the floor dramatic acute hospital services and surely covid has taught us that services in the community

preventative services are where we should be investing and not responding to when things have gone drastically wrong so i am am hoping, and certainly the Maternal Mental Health Alliance will continue to apply pressure to make sure these funds are available. We will find the staff if the funding is there. The problem in the past has been that the funding has never got through and therefore you can't employ the staff. Dr Alain Gregoire, I'm sure we'll talk again. Thank you. And Sarah, you were just listening to there in terms of Sarah Hughes, Chief Executive for the Centre for Mental Health

and Dr Alan Gregoire, President of the Maternal Mental Health Alliance. We'll keep with that story. And of course, any experiences, do let us know your view on this. Now, though, to the tale of the shepherdess and the TV presenter, a mother and son. Last summer, Janice Baker, a shepherdess on a farm in the Durham Hills, was badly injured when she was working, having been trampled by one of her own sheep.

The animal, which typically weighs around 90 kilos, was scrambling to get out of its pen and broke her leg and hip. Her husband called their son, who happens to be the country file and former Wandshow co-presenter Matt Baker, and begged him to come home and help keep the whole farm going. He dropped everything with his whole family and did. And their story, of course, with his other job as a television presenter, is now on TV, four-part series, four more. And I'm happy to say Janice now recovered from the accident and both of them are on the line with us now. Janice, if I could come to you first,

which probably doesn't always happen in the order of who gets to have the microphone in your family. How are you? I'm really well, thank you. A lot better than I was in episode one of the programme. Yes. Do tell us what happened to you. I described it a little there. Yeah, well, luckily, I had somebody with me the first time um with all the restrictions uh we were getting the sheep in for clipping and i was literally just sorting um

lambs and sheep and what you do you basically put the youngsters behind you and then you end up with the older sheep in front of you and they just decided the older sheep decided they wanted to join the youngsters and one of them stood on my foot so I was grounded and then the rest just sort of pile-drived into my leg really to get through and that was I don't really remember a great deal after that I think they had a bit of a fainting episode and luckily the young chap that was with me who helps on a weekend dragged me out and the rest is history really gosh was it i mean is that is that a freak incident absolutely i mean i've worked with sheep for 30 odd years never had an incident like that it was just a total one-off obviously if the first sheep hadn't stood on my

foot then i would have just stepped out of the way and none of it would have happened it was just a total freak accident really and. And how are you now? I would say probably about 80%. I had fantastic physio from Matthew's wife, Nicola. Luckily, she's a qualified physio, so that really helped. I would say I think I'm about 80%. I do tend to actually walk through gates now rather than climb over them. And with it being on a hill, it's, you know, it's not flat anywhere really. But yes, I'm almost back to full health.

I love that you just called him Matthew. Hello, Matthew Baker. Good morning, Emma. Good morning. Yes, I'm forever known. It's funny really, because Matt is kind of my stage name, but my whole family call me Matthew really.

So I know when I'm not on telly, if I hear my name being shouted Matthew Baker Matt Baker good morning to you you you know on a serious note here that must have been a horrible call to have received from your dad yeah yeah absolutely and you know my mum is so stoic and she's so determined and um a brilliant role model really for me growing up as well and there's there's never any there was never any kind of doubt in the way that mum runs the farm and the way that she is and to hear that and suddenly know that things were going to change pretty quickly because my

dad's not well enough to run the farm it's always been my mum that's in charge and when something like that happens and we were a long way away um you know, we've got a place in the Chilterns not far away from when I'd be commuting in and out for the one show, which is where I was based for the 10 years that I was on the show. But we've got kind of like a mini extension of the farm down here with sheep and chickens and all of that. And so as soon as dad rang and said, look, this thing has happened, we were like, right we've got to up stick so we literally transported all of our animals everything went back up to the farm um for us then to start looking at the situation and saying right things need to change you know we're a thousand feet above sea level mum's looked after these big heavy sheep for a long time and it became evident that because because she needed to have a full knee replacement and what have you and she just wasn't going to be

able to get on in the same way that she had done for so long. And so we started to implement these changes and started to have these difficult conversations about how you actually change up what you're doing, yet allow your parents to maintain the lifestyle that they love so much. You know, mum and dad both vastly experienced in knowing what they love in the world. And so we were in a situation where we were like, right, how do we make this sustainable for the future? Because things actually can't continue like this. And how difficult was that for you, Janice? Because we're getting quite a few messages

coming in from people around those tensions when you have to start to have a bit of a role reversal about who's doing what and how you care for each other because you're obviously a very strong woman yes yes i am but one thing matthew has always been part of the farm in years so it wasn't a complete shock in that respect but with me not being um what's the word i don't know not 100 fit at the time i realized very quickly that things were going to have to change and in a way it was a relief that he came and i know his dad was really relieved that he was going to take over and um we did discuss things one or two things were um i'm not sure about that but as as we carried on talking

about yeah as we carried on talking about but you could still do this then i realized actually maybe it would be fun to have a um a new start in similar you know with what we've gone for a lighter sheep and hardier sheep so the before it was a pedigree flock, and pedigree flocks take, downed flocks take a lot of looking after, especially where we are. So I could see the merit. I could see what he was saying was actually practical. It was just a way of implementing it, really.

And he just sort of took over from there. Matt, how have you felt about this? Because on some of the messages from our listeners talking about, know that there's a there's a happiness that you can help but there's also a sadness when you start to see things have to change and you think about your own future. Yeah it was interesting actually because I think a farm is a perfect example of this and we've basically we've made this whole show our Our Farm in the Dales, which is, it follows the process. And because it's not kind of a rural show as such, but it's these family issues that so many families go through. And it's set to the backdrop of a farm,

which is so multi-generational because my children are in it too. They're a big part of the changes. There's the middle generation with me and my wife, and then there's my mum and my dad. And it's kind of how you come to these decisions as a whole as a family and actually farming is sometimes so i don't know you do what what the generation before you did because the generation before that did it too and you end up in this long chain and actually the messages that i've had i mean you know i've put certain things up on instagram and i've been

inundated with people saying we've been in in this scenario, we've been in this situation. And thanks for just showing that if you talk about it, then everybody can air their concerns and can say what they think is best for each other to go forwards. And we've always been a very close family. We've always done what's right. Mum and dad have always supported me in what I want to do. And then there's this time in your life where the tables turn and you start looking after your parents in the same way that they've always looked after you and as mum's saying there we've brought on all these new different flocks

and these new sheep and what have you and for my children to be part of the selection of those sheep in going forward doing something that my mum's gonna um you know spend all of her time with to have her grandchildren doing that it's such a wonderful thing for the future of the farm. And so to have the backdrop of this multi-generational scenario of the farm highlights all of these issues that we're talking about. Was there any part of you that thought you might not come back? No, no. I mean, I was straight there. To be honest with you, we've always, you know,

every opportunity that I'm not on the telly, I'm back there on the farm. And so it's always been a big part of me. I always call it home for that reason. And, you know, it's an organic farm. There's been so much investment that's been put into it to turn it into what it is now that it's like a magnet, that place. And it's so beautiful. That's a huge credit to you, Janice, isn't it?

Because your background isn't farming or wasn't when you were growing up. Is that right? No, no, it wasn't farming. I have, to be honest, I'm the first generation. I don't have a background. I'm adopted. So I think I'm just genetically programmed to be outside and enjoy the wildlife and the animals.

I have no idea where it's come from, but from being very, very young, I always wanted to know what was in that field and what was growing. And my parents weren't farmers. So that's obviously something that's innate in me. And were there many women doing it when you were starting out? No, no. Actually, I'm county organiser for young farmers now. So I can see some fantastic women coming forward

up to the age of 26, really, really good farmers. But when I started, I did go to agricultural college for a year, which was hilarious. And I wasn't very good at machinery at all. But the boys, there was another one other girl on the course, but the boys were really good at machinery and hopeless at the paperwork. So we sort of have this juxtaposition where I would help them with all this stuff in the library

and they would help me with the machinery. So it worked out really well in the end. But in terms of, I suppose what I'm driving at is, you know, you've been an absolute force with this. You could hear it in what Matt was just saying and you know and probably an inspiration to other women well i just did what i really really wanted to do and uh mike my husband supported me in that and i just went for it i just followed my dream i mean i stood in episode one that's just gone i stood in the same field and it was just a sheer coincidence with my first um few very mini flock of sheep that I bought in the same place as where we'd got the

new herdwicks and I I was scared I stood there 30 odd years ago and I thought it was great and then I suddenly realized crikey they're all you know these animals and this place is now your full responsibility you better get it right so uh yeah that was that was it really that was the passion janice and matthew baker thank you our farm in the dales is on more for wednesdays at nine o'clock i'm very happy i can call him that and i have to say many messages coming in about this and as we knew it would be something that would get you talking uh my mum's in reasonable health, but now two years after my dad's death, she expects me to fill that gap.

She resents all the time I spend in contact with my own family. I never expected her to be so dependent even before her health failed. I wouldn't abandon her, but I don't like what she's turned into. Another one, I'm 71. My kids are 29 and 31. And from the other way on, if you like,

both living and working away, the most difficult thing is becoming less significant or powerful as age changes us all. I think children don't realise the change that growing older brings for parents both physically and mentally. Keep those

messages coming in, very powerful ones I can see, 84844, I'll come back to them shortly because that's a theme of role reversal in families, we'll also be coming back to with a discussion around a book shortly. But another statue of a strong woman in this country has made the headlines. Last year, you may remember, it was Mary Wollstonecraft and Maggie Hambling's controversial vision of her. Now it's the turn of Greta Thunberg.

A statue of the 18-year-old environmentalist was unveiled at the University of Winchester last week. But some think it's a waste of money. Christine Charlesworth is the creator. Not only has she made Greta during lockdown, she's created two other British feminist icons. More about them shortly. But first, Christine, describe the reaction to her Greta statue. Not all of it positive. A surprising amount of publicity, quite a lot of negative publicity, which nobody was expecting. Nobody was expecting at the university. There's a small section of the students that feel that it's a waste of money and they should have had the money spent on on students. But the university have already spent almost five and a half million this year on student support because of Covid. And this was just a small fraction of the money for the total spend on the new building. They've just finished building this amazing new university building.

And the sculpture of Greta was going to be the finishing touch, is the finishing touch outside. Twenty six thousand. You're right to say some students have said it's a vanity project and others being rather bemused. Why Greta Thunberg in Winchester? Because it wasn't understood if she'd ever even been there or had a connection to it. She hasn't. She hasn't ever been. We're hoping that one day she will visit Winchester. Well, Winchester University, it's one of the greenest universities in the whole country. And that is why they chose Greta to stand outside. Well, I was going to say, well, come to the statue as well in a moment and how you created her. But have you found this difficult, the kind of backlash?

Not really, because I'm not just talking about the sculpture, I just said we would do. I'm not just, I haven't just made Greta, like a photograph copying Greta only for what she stands for. But I've tried to have a sculpture that shows her personality personality how she is to portray some of the things that she's had to um go through in life before having the courage and the confidence I say confidence here with inverted commas to stand in front of people now for her to have the confidence to stand in front of thousands of people and talk about something she feels passionate about has taken an awful lot of courage because of various problems she's had to cope with. Every time she stands in front of crowds, every time she's mixing with people she doesn't know,

she is incredibly shy, very nervous, very unsure of herself. So the statue of Greta shows this, shows what she's going through. With her arms and her stance and her clothing, she has one fist clenched, but not tightly so she's going to biff somebody in the nose, just insecurity clenched because she might wish she's a million miles away, who knows? But she's not having eye contact with anybody. That's another trait. Well, you're referring then, I believe, to the fact she's got Asperger's and she's on the spectrum. And she's spoken about that publicly now saying actually, it's a superpower. And at first she didn't want people to know about it. And now that she does. But what's very striking from what you're saying? I mean, it almost sounds like you've met her and that you know her in the way that you've you've done this research for your work have you met her no I haven't met her but I wish I had yes but you look at the whole person when creating I've looked at

the whole person always when I create person yes it's it's not just otherwise you just take a photograph wouldn't you no it's to get the get the personality. It's gets what's happening, what makes that person tick. And I've obviously watched loads of stuff on YouTube. Have you heard anything or has the university heard anything since it's been unveiled? Not as far as I know. They haven't notified me. And so no messages from her to you? No messages from her, but she did know it was happening. And you've also, in this year of lockdown, you've been busy with other statues of other women and women of note. Tell us about who else you've created. My lockdown has actually been a lockdown

where I've just been virtually living in my studio. No, the other two women I've done, so the first one I did was of Emily Wilding Davison, because she's sitting, she's going to be sitting on a granite bench, talking, well, not literally, but talking to whoever wants to sit down beside her. Now, Emily Wilding Davison, this is for Epsom Town Centre. And she was a very well-known suffragette who was accidentally, it was an accident, run over by the king's horse at the Derby in Epsom and died three days later in Epsom. And Emily will be sitting on the granite

bench and beside her will be three of her favourite books and her mortarboard. And she's also holding a census form. It's quite a chunky census form because of casting it, because she hid in the Houses of Parliament. So her name was actually on the census form as that was where she was residing on the day of the census. The other figure I've done, and that's of Dame Ethel Smythe, the composer, musician, sportswoman, writer and very prominent suffragette. She wrote The March of the Women. She composed nine operas, various masses. I think she wrote six books. An amazing woman. She always wore tweed skirts, even in the summer. So she's wearing a tweed skirt. She's got a fairly loose fitting jacket that's popping, the buttons are coming undone because she's very enthusiastically conducting passes by. Well, I was going to say, Ethel sounds like a woman after my own heart

because wearing a tweed skirt in summer really appeals to me because I'm permanently cold. So it's good to stay warm. But it's very interesting to hear these descriptions. And I'm just mindful of the fact that we also recently saw an unveiling of Mary Wollstonecraft,

a sculpture of her, just at the end of last year. And that hasn't been, also, you know, there's lots of controversy it seems about women and statues it seems, but that also wasn't

that well received in some ways because it wasn't a life, yours are with huge likeness, whereas this was more of a, just to remind people, a kind of symbol of a woman, naked, coming off the back of... How would you describe it?

She was like a sprite, wasn't she? Yes, yes. Whether it's... I don't want to sound bitchy at all. It's just not like my work. I like to... If you're going to build something, a sculpture as a remembrance of somebody, then I think it's better to try and represent the person. Somebody described it, I mean, because she's sort of known as the mother of feminism,

and then there was a mother of all backlashes off the back of that was by Maggie Hambling. And it definitely divided people, I suppose, from what it sounds from you, not necessarily your style or your taste to that. But just a final thought from you, if I can, what would you say to people? Because I'm also aware that we're living in an era where people want to tear down certain statues and that statues don't always age very well. What do you make of the idea that statues are anachronistic? They're past their sort of sell-by date, and we don't really need them anymore. I know that's a counterintuitive point, perhaps,

to put to someone in your line of work. Yeah, it's very difficult to understand, for a sculptor to understand. You want to do me out of work, don't you? No, I recognise you're doing some new work with lots of these, you know, women being represented for the first time. Well, yes, we've got an awful lot of men out there.

And I think it's time we got a few women there also. Why is it always the men? And there was a saying, certainly in the olden days, as my daughter would say, there was a saying that behind every good man is a very hard-working woman. And I certainly believe in that. Artfully dodged there, our statues, anachronistic. We'll let our audience, we'll let our listeners get in on that.

Thank you for talking to us. And I know it's been a busy year. Christine Charlesworth, all the best. Thank you. And you have been getting in touch. The statue's very realistic, reads this message. It's almost like a waxwork, but without the colour, talking about Greta Thunberg. Yvette says statues have often seemed imposing and unnecessary to me, a flexing of muscles, a show of power. It's good now to get a balance to show women's achievements, but I'd

like to see public usable gardens be created in recognition of people. Thank you for that, Yvette. Keep those messages coming in. Throughout the programme, we have been talking about doing things for your parents. But what about the other way around? Ruth volunteered at the age of 54 to be a surrogate mother for her daughter who just had her seventh miscarriage. Although this story is inspired by real events, Ruth is a fictional character in the first novel by Susan Spindler, simply called Surrogate. It tells how Ruth came to be her daughter's surrogate. Good morning to you, Susan. Morning, Emma. Why did you choose this storyline? Is this something you've

perhaps been wanting to do yourself? I had several friends who struggled with infertility or couldn't carry babies for some other reason. And if any of them had offered, I would have carried a baby willingly for them, because I think it's a fantastic thing to be able to do for another woman and transformative. informative uh so that sparked my interest I also knew that in America several women had done this for their children uh had a baby for their daughter and in the process birthed their own granddaughter and it was an incredibly useful way of telling what I hope is a compelling story of one family and what and the fallout really from that offer of Ruth's, but also looking at women's experience across a lifetime. It is incredibly compelling. But what you just say there about you, you could have done it for your friends or you would have put yourself perhaps in that position.

Do you think you could have gone through with it? Because there are such huge questions within this process, aren't there? You know, not least that you explore around ownership of the child, the bond that you build up with the child, no matter what arrangements you put in place first. I think looking back, I discovered an awful lot by talking to surrogates, talking to the intended parents who essentially commission the surrogates, form a relationship with them, which is either altruistic or commercial. And babies are born in that fashion. In particular, I discovered that there's often an unspoken rivalry when the surrogates are doing it for a heterosexual couple. Some of them who'd been surrogates more than once said they much preferred working with gay men because there wasn't another mother involved. She felt, in retrospect, bullied by an intended mother into a cesarean because the mother hadn't wanted her to have the intimate experience of birthing her baby. Wow. OK, well, I mean, we should also say at this point, which I know Womizah has covered before and I'm sure we'll go on to do so again. You know, there's lots of controversy around surrogates and whether the women's rights of those who are being surrogates are quite as they should be.

And there's a whole range of discussions we could have off the back of that. But there's some particular themes also in your book I wanted to make sure we focused on, which is the fact that the woman who's doing this at the heart of it is 54. And I wonder how much a theme that keeps coming up within the book through her character. And correct me if I'm wrong, is this desire to feel how she used to feel this idea of going back to what it was like pre-menopause and feeling the hormones feeling the changes in her body clamoring for her youth in some way yes clamoring for her youth and falling into the category of women who who miss being fertile miss potency, the tremendous potency of motherhood and pregnancy,

and feel, having come through the menopause, what now? And are waiting for another big thing. And in Ruth's case, I think she partly seized on this opportunity out of great kindness and motherly love and altruism and partly out of a kind of deep need to be back in the fertility fray if you like but also be needed by her children in some way which we've been talking about throughout the program this idea of still being relevant and actually that i won't ruin any only of the twists towards the end of it it's got a very good twist uh just before the end and then it twists again. But the idea of her getting older and losing that power,

we're hearing from our listeners this morning, is a theme that they've been thinking about within their families. Yeah, absolutely. And I think she's scared. And I think she wants to be the mother. She wants to be the fixer. And during the course of a succession of crises, really, I think she has to come to terms with the fact that the postmenopausal period

has to offer something, has to mean something, but it doesn't mean more of that. And there's a temptation to be what I think someone's termed a perennial, to go on impersonating a fertile woman in the reproductive phase in terms of looks and even behaviour for an incredibly long time. And I think at the end, Ruth washes up in a place where she knows that's not for her. I mean, I'm conscious of the fact this is this is your first novel. So it's a change for you in your life as well. Congratulations on that front. But did you feel like you had to explore this when you reached a certain point? What what the next chapter was? Because it's very striking to talk about what is next when you're not under the ebb and flow of hormones and all of those other things that that leaves you open to. Yes, I very much wanted to. And I think it's an existential crisis for women. And we don't,

on the whole, talk about it. It's talked about a bit more, but no one really talks about where's the script for that period beyond the menopause, which for most women is going to be, or many women, is going to be the longest period of their life and we don't have rituals we don't have rites of passage we don't have characters in fiction films television um these are we're invisible women women of my age i i think do you like me do you like it or do you know that it's being invisible um i think we have to forge a new visibility. And I think it's more androgynous. It's more interesting. There's huge scope for play. And in my case, I don't think I could have written a novel when I was younger. I mean, it's something I'm doing now. And I'm flabbergasted

I'm doing it. But life is an adventure and why why aren't we talking about it well sorry the reason i asked if you liked it or loathed it and your description of the invisibility there is because you know recently i have been hearing from women on this program who say although it's galling in some ways to be invisible it's liberating yeah i think it's liberating but but but i to reiterate i think we have to make a new visibility it's not it's not the visibility that society demands of women and the notion of letting go which sometimes women are condemned for when when they don't bother about their their appearance in the same way they don't try to be perennials they're talking about letting go and i think letting go could connote something really different about self-discovery, about being

different kinds of women. Do you think not being able to continue to have children like men can until whatever age? I'm thinking of our prime minister, he's a new father again. I was reading the other day our former chancellor, George Os Osborne he's having another child now close to 50 your character was 54 uh trying to do this for her daughter again do you think we have to come up with something else because we can't keep having the children I think all the research I did has made me very wary of of having babies that late because it's dangerous. Which comes out in the novel. Yeah, the risks mount remorselessly. And I think that there's more in life than having babies in the end.

On that note, we're going to have to leave it there. And a very good one to end on. Surrogate by Susan Spindler out now. Thank you for talking to us. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello, it's Greg Jenner here, the host of Radio

4's funny history podcast, You're Dead to Me. We are rounding off this current third series by going stateside and focusing on five great stories from American history. We'll be hearing from some of the best historians and comedians from across the pond as we be hearing from some of the best historians and comedians from across the pond as we get jazzy with the Harlem Renaissance, enjoy some dry wit in a

Prohibition-era speakeasy, discover if the greatest showman P.T. Barnum really was quite so great, go exploring with a Native American heroine, Sacagawea, and discover how early America turned itself into a new country and what that even meant. So if you want to learn some new stuff about the history of the new world and laugh while you learn, then check out You're Dead to Me on the BBC Sounds app. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.