Woman's Hour - Felicity Jones, Eating disorders, Adult sons at home

Episode Date: January 22, 2025

Felicity Jones has been nominated for a Best Supporting Actress BAFTA for her role in The Brutalist, in which she plays Erzsébet, a Hungarian journalist who emigrates to the US in the late 1950s to join her architect husband. She joins Anita Rani to discuss her portrayal of this complex character and the other memorable roles she’s taken on, from Ruth Bader Ginsberg to Jane Wilde Hawking.A new report by the All Party Parliamentary Group on Eating Disorders highlights what they are calling ‘widespread neglect’ in services across the UK. They have found that patients in some areas have been discharged with a Body Mass Index of lower than 15 - which is associated with substantially increased mortality. To discuss the findings of the report Anita is joined by the Chair of the APPG, Wera Hobhouse MP and Hope Virgo, Secretariat of the APPG and campaigner, who has recovered fully from an eating disorder herself.President Donald Trump spent his first day back in the Oval office signing executive orders, issuing pardons and outlining his plans for the country. But what do his actions so far mean for women in America? Joining Anita is Anne McElvoy, host of the Politico transatlantic podcast Power PlaMore people in their late 20s are still living with their parents – it's up by more than a third in nearly two decades according to the Institute for Fiscal Studies. Men are also more likely than women to stay in the family home, with 23% of 25-34 year old men living with their parents compared to 15% of women the same age. We speak to mum of four and counsellor Lucy Cavendish who has two adult sons living at home, and Associate Professor and family therapist Dr Hannah Sherbersky.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to Woman's Hour with me, Anita Rani. I had a very powerful and satisfying cinematic experience yesterday watching The Brutalist and I'm delighted to say that star Felicity Jones will be here to tell me about her role in it. Also, there's a report just out by the all-party parliamentary group on eating disorders. We'll be hearing their findings and recommendations.

Trump's first 24 hours in office, how have women featured? We'll be discussing that. And then the number of 25 to 34-year-olds still living at home with their parents has gone up by more than a third in the last two decades. But there are more boys than girls who are deciding to remain in the family home, mainly because they can't afford to move out. But it may be for other reasons too. Feeling comfortable possibly. So is your adult son

living at home? Is this you? Are you a I'm still at home son or daughter? Or are you a parent who has your grown up kids still under your roof? How's it working out for you? Are you happy to do it? Is it driving you mad? Are you still washing their pants? Let's hear the pros and cons from your perspective. And let's not forget, there are plenty of cultures

where actually it's perfectly normal for sons to never move out. So your thoughts and opinions on that and anything you hear on the programme, more than welcome. Do get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me by going to our website and you can also contact us on WhatsApp. It's 03700 100 444. But first, British actress Felicity Jones has played some extraordinary roles in her career.

She was Jane Wilde Hawking, the ex-wife of Stephen Hawking in The Theory of Everything, hero Jyn Erso in Star Wars Rogue One, and US Supreme Court judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg in On the Basis of Sex. But her latest role of Erzbeth Toth in The Brutalist might be her most challenging and complex. The film, which is in cinemas on Friday, tells the story of a Hungarian architect who emigrates to the US after the Holocaust. Whilst his wife, Erzbeth, is trapped in Eastern Europe. They're reunited halfway through the film. Erzbeth is a character who confounds expectations. Here she is, surprising wealthy philanthropist Harrison Van Buren,

who's played by Guy Pearce, just after being reunited with her husband, Laszlo. Azurbet, pardon me, am I pronouncing that correctly? That's fine. Just fine. Feel free to call me Elizabeth if you prefer it. And your English is impressive. Thank you. I attended university in England.

Oh, where? Oxford. To study English. And I returned home for communications. And did you do anything with that? Yes. I wrote for a popular national paper at home. Major Namzet.

A journalist. Cultural? Foreign affairs. Well, perhaps you can help your husband sound less like he shines shoes for a wage. Haven't you told them anything about me? Oh, it's so good. Felicity Jones, welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello.

Hi. It's wonderful to have you here. First of all, congratulations on your BAFTA nomination for Best Supporting Actress. A lot of talk, a lot of buzz around the Oscars. The nominations are coming out on Friday. Is there a sense of anticipation? Well, we, I mean, you never quite know when you make something how it's going to be received.

With this, with this script, when it came through, I think all of us involved knew that it was special. It was unusual to read something that had this depth of character in it and this huge, epic, sweeping story that's underpinned by these very intimate, domestic, very precisely drawn moment. So there was definitely a sense that it was special, but to have had the reception that we've had is definitely beyond what any of us expected. Why did you say yes to this particular role? It was actually incredibly, it was an incredibly easy one. I'd been reading lots of scripts at that time and hadn't come across anything that was really making an impact. And then The Brutalist came through, and I thought, initially, what an amazing title, such a brilliant film title. And then in reading it, I was incredibly moved by it, fundamentally. And I felt that Aja Bette was this magnificent

character. She was someone who is completely unafraid of who she is. When we meet her, you realize she's been through incredible trauma. She's been through concentration camps alongside her husband in different camps, but they've been through very similar experiences. And I felt there was a great challenge in conveying this woman's experience. We heard in that clip there that she's incredibly accomplished. I do particularly like the line where, did you not tell them anything about me? I think that could have only been written by a woman.

She's also physically weak and malnourished. You get to learn, actually, that she's exceptionally strong throughout the film. And you mentioned the trauma there, because there's trauma of the Second World War, but she actually has trauma within her body. How did you prepare for that? Well, that was a huge aspect of understanding who she was. And as you say, the experiences that she's gone through are manifesting physically, the malnutrition, the psychological impact.

And we see Ajebet throughout that second half of the film dealing with that. And you realize what's great about the script was that it never pinpoints anything. It never patronizes the audience. So much is conveyed just through performance, which is obviously a delight for an actor. And you realize that in some ways, Aisrebet is disassociating from her physical self in some aspects as a way of dealing with the trauma that she's gone through. And in that scene that we just heard,

you can see how she is getting the measure of Van Buren. She's incredibly, she has great intuition. I think she has a very low estimation of human nature from what she's been through. So her expectations of anyone are pretty down there. So she's in that moment, she's reading, is this, what is the impact of this man going to be on their lives? And I think very early on, she realizes that he's not a good person. He's a dodgy one. Yeah, she's very smart. She's sussed him out, hasn't she? And it's the beginning of, Adrian Brody's character has escaped Second World War. He's come to America. It's the immigration story. It's a film in two halves. You've got an hour and a half and then there's a break, an interval, and then you get the second half where your character turns up. So you've got the huge backdrop, the big immigrant story, but then you've got the intimacy of their relationship, this husband and wife who are being reunited after all this trauma. And it's complicated and it's a really long, poor reunion.

What's the effect? Describe the effect that she has, first of all, on the people around her. And then I want to talk about one scene as well, when they're lying in bed together. But first of all, the effect on the people around her. Well, you're waiting for her arrival, like Laszlo, and the people that he's with like Van Buren so the expectations are very high and you realize that she has quite a force within her you know I've

been thinking of her as as a bit like a Jedi she has this she's handsy because you're in Star Wars which yeah you know there is some sense of continuity I'm bringing Jyn Erso with me in some ways through through her and she she's she's's pretty unafraid and she's pretty defiant. And she's not going to conform to expectations. You know, in many ways, Van Buren thinks because he's wealthy, because he has this sense of authority that he thinks comes from that, comes from that. And she refuses to let him have it she is um there's a scene at the end of the film where she tells him exactly how it is and that actually um how dare he he has a line where he says if you'll excuse me you know he has this pretension to civility yeah and she absolutely refuses to uses to condone his behavior and actually has far more integrity and honesty and truth than he could

ever dream of. Yeah, Felicity, you get the scene. It's the scene. We can't give too much away because you just have to watch it. No, don't want too many spoilers. You've got to go and see it. Yeah, really. I can't stop thinking about it and it's going to stay with me for a long time. It's very, very, very good. It's the rekindling of the intimacy between the husband and wife as well. That is so intriguing. They've been apart for so long. They've been through so much. And then it's the scene where they're lying in bed together.

And it's something just very human that happens. It's the first thing that happens is they have an argument. Yeah. How true. Yeah. Well, the stakes are so high. You know, they haven't seen each other for eight years. And then suddenly they're reunited.

But they're having to get to know each other again. There's a certain amount of awkwardness and they're kind of going, well, in some ways I put this person on a pedestal and now I'm confronted with the reality of a human being and human beings are deeply flawed and, you know, partners get on each other's nerves and immediately, as you say,

there's something just so relatable about that is that in their nervousness, they're kind of getting under each other's skin and they're already, you know, that first night together rather than it being this sort of idealised version of a reunion. They're kind of a bit naggy with each other. The relationship between you and Adrian Brody's character is outstanding. He's already won the Golden Globe.

Both of you are just so brilliant. What was it like working with him? Adrian is incredibly unflinching in the pursuit of finding a naturalism and an honesty to the to the scenes. And so we both, we were both in incredibly well prepared, as we knew we had to be for something like this. And then when we came, we didn't, we had one, I think we had one zoom conversation before we met in Budapest in Hungary. And actually, when we first met, there was a moment, you know, we sort of shook hands and looked at each other and thought,

gosh, what is ahead of us? You know, it was such a challenge what we're about to do. But I think we both give as good as we get, you know, and I think we were both at a point in our careers where we felt really ready for something like this. Yeah, you're right. You give as good as you get. They're an equally matched couple as well because she is his intellectual equal. Yeah, very much. If not superior.

Very much. And so much of that comes from Brady and Mona, who are a husband and wife team and they worked together very closely and they both wrote it. And you can feel that you can feel so much of the of their relationship in some ways has has gone into this script. That's why it feels so, so truthful, because as you say, they touch on that, that dynamic, that husband and wife dynamic in such a raw way. Yeah. So, yeah, as you mentioned, the real life couple, Brady Corbett, who also directed it, and Mona Fassvold, who wrote it together. You worked with your husband on the film director charles uh guard on the film deadshot what do you think the secret is to a creative collaboration with your partner i trust the trust is already

there and so often the best creative output comes from relationships where there is a deep deep trust with each other but what happens when they wind you up? Well, and then you get really annoyed with each other. You go, no, I don't think it should be done like that. I think it should be done like this. Do you talk about it at home as well? I mean, there's a good homework. There's no separation.

I mean, in our household, we are, you know, we're film obsessives and can't stop talking about it. It's a hobby and it's work. So there's not a lot of boundaries around work and pleasure, really. And we need to talk about some of your other work as well, because you've played some incredible characters. What's the difference between performing a completely fictional character like Elizabeth? Although, by the way, like so many people, I thought this was based on a real life story by the end i was thinking is this a real story it's because it's there's so much uh

depth and complexity it feels like they are real people um i'm playing um jane wild hawkin and ruth bader ginsburg yeah i seem to be attracted to these ferocious uh characters and these these women who um i guess they're pushing they, you know, there's a struggle inside of them. And part of that struggle is coming from operating in a, you know, a patriarchal society, and how do they navigate and find their way in these worlds. But I definitely like a, I don't know why, but I like a character with a bit of fight in them.

Come on, why? What's the... Yeah. What's the appeal? I think there's always something about... And it's the kind of films I like as well. There's something about the underdog that I really like to get my teeth into.

Is there fighting? Someone who's pushing against. I think definitely. I think in a lot of women. I think it is. I think there is, particularly when you have strong beliefs, then you have to be tough

and you have to push. And you're in a tough industry, but you've been acting for a long time. You acted as a child, first major role in the film The Treasure Seekers when you were only 12. We've got to mention a couple of things that you were in that really does span a demographic of Radio 4 listeners.

Your breakout role was Chalet Girl, but you also played Emma Grundy in The Archers whilst you were still at uni. Yes, I started playing Emma Grundy when I think I was about 12, something like that, 11 or 12. I started off, I went to a great, great drama group called Central Junior Television Workshop. And I'd been interested in acting before then. I'd gone to another group at the Custard Factory in Birmingham, where I grew up. And at the time, my father was working, he was a producer at Central Television.

And he found out about this great drama group that was open to all children across the city. And we would go once a week in the evening and that's really where I started out and had a fantastic teacher there called Colin Edwards and he was inspirational in bringing together young people and he took us so seriously at such a young age and we'd be talking about Pinter and we'd be talking about Dylan Thomas. We did a production of Under Milkwood. They didn't patronise you at all. Exactly. And I think that's so important with children.

They are not to patronise them. And that gives you such confidence at such a young age that you have a purchase in the world, that you have a place in the world because of being taken seriously at that point. And through Central Junior Television Workshop, I was able to get an audition for The Archers. Do you miss Ambridge? Ambridge will live in me for the rest of my life. I mean, it's such a British institution. And it was just such an opportunity really to kind of get to know,

it was a wonderful cast to get to know a varied group of people and then start doing voice work and the voice is such a big part of my preparation for playing these characters. And you do have a beautiful voice. Also now lots of change in the last 10 years since you were last nominated for a BAFTA and an Oscar

in The Theory of everything. You've got two small children. How has becoming parent affected life and the roles that you pick? It means that your time is extremely limited and any time you do have is very precious. So, I mean, I've always been careful about the work that I do. I feel like I have to feel 100% in to do something. And I think even more so now having two small, very energetic children, then, then the work really has to has to account for something in some way. And that doesn't mean that it,

you know, it has to be overly serious. I've just done a um a Christmas comedy actually which was you know very different from the brutalist but it just I have to feel that the script is good really to make it worth it and very quickly just to comment on the chalet girls there will be a generation of young women who will never forgive me if I don't ask you about it uh chalet girl um I mean chalet girl was it was a bit like doing a ski season and shooting at the same time. Did you know how to ski before you did it? I'd done, I'd done a bit. I'd done, I'd done a bit of skiing and I'd, but I'd never done

any snowboarding. So before I started shooting, I was, I was sent out to a, a ski resort in, I think it was Southern Germany. I had three weeks had three weeks which actually seems like a dream now and seems like endless time to master snowboarding so after a lot of falling over and generally making a fool of myself I sort of got the hang of it enough to hopefully convince that I was an expert. You were. And lucky you as a snowboarder. I'm very jealous of that idea. Just three weeks on the slopes. And did I read that you actually loved that role because finally you weren't doing a period drama? Yeah, it was nice to do something different. And again, doing comedy is something that

I always have been drawn to. And then there was just something in that it was such a sweet story and such a singular narrative at the same time, just following this character. But in some ways, there's almost something a little bit Jane Austen about the story of Chalet Girl. But I think it's one of those films that is, it's an enjoyable watch, you know, it's one of those kind of Sunday afternoon. It's gentle. It's funny. It's a feel-good film. It's a feel-good film.

It has been a pleasure speaking to you. I want to wish you all the best with this extraordinary piece of art. I mean, I really enjoyed you in The Brutalist. And best of luck for an Oscar nomination. Lovely. Thank you very much. So, so, so nice to be here. Thanks, Felicity.

And The Brutalist is in cinemas from Friday the 24th of January. Thank you. Lovely. Thank you. Lots of you getting in touch about your sons still staying at home. My 25-year-old and 26-year-old son and daughter still live at home. To us, it seems the most natural thing in the world. We enjoy their company. They enjoy ours. I don't understand the rush to get our children out of the house

if they still want to be living as part of a family unit. They contribute financially and are good at saving so that when it comes to buy their own home, they're in a better position to do so. We are a white British family and culturally, I think just a few generations ago, it was normal to stay in the family home until you were married. And that's from Hannah.

And another one here saying, our younger son moved home 18 months ago as his mental health was suffering in London. He'd now like to move out, but his job doesn't pay anywhere near enough to afford rent, despite doing a skilled job. We do love having him at home. Previously, our other son and his girlfriend lived with us for 18 months to save for their house deposit. We're happy that we can support them this way. The issue is that rents are really high and wages are not. And that's from Janice and Ben. Thank you

for your comments. 84844 is the text number. Keep them coming in. Now, a new report by the All Party Parliamentary Group on Eating Disorders highlights what they're calling widespread neglect in services across the UK. Following several Freedom of Information Act requests, they found that

patients were being discharged with a body mass index or BMI lower than 15, which is associated with being severely underweight, a high risk of physical complications and substantially increased mortality. Well, to discuss the findings of the report, I'm joined by the chair of the APPG, Vera Hobhouse MP, and Hope Virgo, secretariat of the APPG, author and campaigner, who has recovered fully from an eating disorder herself. And I should say before we start that if you are affected by anything you hear in this conversation, there are support links on the BBC's Action Line website. Hope, I'm going to come to you first.

Thank you for being here. Now, approximately, it's a big figure, 1.25 million people are living with eating disorders in the UK. That's three quarters of which are women. That's according to the charity BEAT. You talk to people with eating disorders and their families, clinicians and researchers for this report. What did they tell you about the current state of treatment in the UK?

Yeah, so the current state of treatment here is completely shocking. We heard from people with lived experience that so much of the time they try and access treatment and they're told they're not sick enough for treatment. They then come back a couple of months later, at which point they're then told they're too sick for treatment. We heard stories of neglect taking place within services, people being discharged, as you said, at dangerously low BMIs with no discharge plan in place for them. And in some situations, people will have gone home and lost their lives or had multiple admissions to A&E following that. The report for me really shines a spotlight on actually how terrible things are at the moment and I'm hopeful that with that in mind it will kind of help to put more pressure on the government and I think the final thing just quickly is that what we need to remember with this report and with all the statistics is they're not unique stories it's just like this tiny there's a tiny people tiny amount of people we spoke to but there's millions of other people that are being affected

by this on a day-to-day basis that we didn't have time to talk to so it doesn't show the real kind of situation I think as well. And you've come up with four recommendations within this report let's let's start the top what what are they? Yeah so we're pushing for a national strategy around eating disorders which will include training for all frontline staff we want to look at mandatory health screening for high- groups, so people who are maybe going through a pregnancy with an eating disorder, people who come from other high risk groups where we see higher rates of eating disorders. We're calling for more funding to go into services and into research. But with that more funding, we don't just want more money,

we want to have a proper cultural change within eating disorders so people get treated in the right way. And then we're also calling for a confidential inquiry into all eating disorder deaths the reality is at the moment is people do die from eating disorders they shouldn't but they do and we should be learning what has gone wrong in all of these situations so that we can start to improve services and treatment um i'm going to bring vera in as well um good morning vera welcome to the program um tell us about the freedom of information act request that you sent out for this report why. What did you ask and what did you find? because it's preventable death. And we heard from so many people, you know, that services has really failed them. We have heard from families, harrowing stories about loved ones. And it is preventable death.

I've been working as the chair of the eating disorder APPG for six years now. And the government keeps not taking what we have been raising the alarm about for years of inadequate services seriously. And therefore, the only way really to get to the bottom of these harrowing numbers is through freedom of information request. The report author is Hope, and I want to sort of say and pay tribute to Hope. She has been an inveterate campaigner for so many years without people like Hope and these courageous campaigners who come forward and tell us about their lived experiences and campaign for improving services, but also battle the stigma that still surrounds eating disorder services,

we would not be where we are today. So today is a very important day where we are raising the awareness and the emergency of improving services. And I'm very proud that I'm part of this campaign. But the real hero here in this story is Hope. Hope, what's your motivation? So I've had my own lived experience of having an eating disorder. And when I look at the state of services now, I realise how lucky I was to get treatment when I did. I spent a year as an inpatient when I was 17.

And whilst when I was discharged, I wasn't fully recovered and it hasn't been plain sailing since. I've experienced firsthand how awful it is to have an eating disorder. I also now have a two and a half year old and I'd never want him to go through what I go through. So I think for me, it's thinking about actually all these people that spend their lives feeling categorically wrong. The stigma, as Vera mentioned, you feel categorically wrong in who you are. You get told that you're untreatable.

You get told you're too complex and people shouldn't be made to feel like that when we know that it's a treatable illness. And what did you find then through this Freedom of Information Act? What sorts of stories were you hearing? So mainly that people are being discharged at dangerously low BMIs and they're being blamed for the fact they're not responding to treatment. We had people coming back to us through the Freedom of Information saying the reason they discharged that patient was because they weren't motivated enough or it had been this mutual agreement when I look back at my life and I think like you know what if I'd had the opportunity to be discharged at a dangerously low BMI from treatment I would have done that all I wanted when I was in the grips of my eating disorder was for the suffering to end

and the way out for me in that moment would have been discharged and potentially to end my life to speak really bluntly about it and I think that's the really scary thing is we shouldn't be giving up on people so what happens when people are discharged they go home basically and they're left to either manage on their own some situations they might try and be readmitted we know that services will say to individuals there's always a door open for you but actually the reality of that there isn't always a door open you might go back and then you'll get put on a waiting list. Or once you've been labelled as a difficult or a complex patient, no one wants to treat you.

Vera, I'm sure you'll have seen yourself. It's in most of the papers today. MPs this week are going to look close at the potential anorexia loophole in the assisted dying bill that psychiatrists fear could result in people with severe eating disorders using it to end their lives. anorexia loophole in the assisted dying bill that psychiatrists fear could result in people with severe eating disorders using it to end their lives uh the liberal democrat mp sarah olney who sits on the committee of mps that will scrutinize the proposed law is tabling an

amendment to tighten the language around mental capacity what are your thoughts on this well um first of all i have been supporting and all Liberal Democrats have been supporting the assisted dying bill. But we want to make sure that people really feel that there are no loopholes. And so I welcome that we have a discussion around, you know, where people worry what consequences would be. I would, however, say that an eating disorder is a fully treatable illness. And this is why we are talking here today. It is a fully treatable illness with the right services. It is just the services that are failing people. Therefore, eating disorders could never be termed as a terminal illness. And if any clinicians or doctors do that, I think they would absolutely

massively go against the guidelines. I think the amendment that's been put forward is around the language of ability and capacity, because some sufferers of eating disorder and patients of eating disorders, you know, have to be sectioned. But again, the assisted dying bill is affecting people who are making that decision out of their full free will. Nobody will be forced into ending their lives. And of course, because we recognize the difficulties of a mental health disorder or indeed where families know and hope has herself said sometimes you're in such a desperate place, you feel you want to end your life. That is, of course, not a definition for which you could apply to have an assisted death. So we have to be very clear of what the law and the proposed law will be saying around assisted dying. I do recognise that people could be worried about it. I think their worry unnecessarily,

but the discussion around that is, of course, very, very important. We've got a statement from Claire Murdoch, who's the NHS National Director for Mental Health. And they said, there is no doubt eating disorder services are under extreme pressure with cases rising by half last year, yet more than four fifths of children and young people start urgent treatment within one week. More work needs to be done,

which is why the NHS is updating its guidance on CYP eating disorders and every mental health trust now offers evidence-based early interventions for 16 to 25 year olds-olds with eating disorders. Vera, the NHS national data shows that eating disorder cases have risen from over 19,000 people in 2018 to 19 to 29,000 in 2022 to 2023. What impact is this having on resources for the treatment?

Well, first of all, we all know with any medical condition that early intervention is, of course, the best way, A, for a good outcome, and it is also cheaper. But because, for example, I know, of course, the NHS puts out reassuring messages, but eating disorder services, and I'm not blaming the people who are working in these services, are not fit for purpose. There is not enough resource. Therefore, people are suffering for too long.

We know that the longer people are suffering from an eating disorder, the longer it takes to treatment and to treat them. And then if they are at crisis point, then we are hearing these harrowing stories of being admitted as a critical case into eating disorder services in hospitals that again are not sufficient. Then they're discharged early. Then people are back in the community with absolutely no service to provide them or very little. They're released back into their family homes. And I, as an MP, hear about a lot of constituents who are talking about their family experiences and they are coming back and back and say my daughter is so ill and does it does she have to be a blue light case before somebody listens to me again and this revolving

door of services that are not fit for purpose cost a lot of money that don't help patients who suffer and it really needs to change. And this is why we have published our report today in order to really draw attention to that. How does it still feel to be pushing for change? It's not the first time we've seen reports into eating disorders. Well, indeed, and it is frustrating that in all those years that we have been campaigning for change, the situation has gone worse, particularly through COVID. Therefore, all I can do is to keep campaigning and keep working with families and recovering

patients and patients who are fully recovered to tell again and again the NHS and NHS leaders and politicians, and I hope I can draw attention to the issue today in parliamentary, in questions to the prime minister, that we need really that decisions on discharge should never be made based solely on weight or BMI. However, we want to go further to support those with mental health issues, including eating disorders. Our 10-year health plan will improve access to essential mental health services, including giving an additional 380,000 patients access to the NHS Talking Therapies programme, recruiting an extra 8,500 adults and child mental health staff and providing access to mental health support in every school. Are you hopeful that the government are going to listen

to your findings and your recommendations? Yeah, I feel like we finally got the truth out there on paper and it can't be ignored. I think for too long I've been in meetings with other campaigners with people with lived experience with other clinicians and we're saying there's a problem and we're constantly being told by NHS England that the problem's not as bad as we're saying so by getting it down we can be like actually do you know what this is a problem this is happening and hopefully we can start to really hold people to account and I think a big thing

that we yeah I guess a big thing for me is that we know that early intervention is key. But also we can't forget the other people who are at the other end of the spectrum who've been unwell for such a long time, who are now being marked as untreatable. It's those people that also need to have that hope provided to them, but also have investment into their treatment to look at what could work for them and how we can make that work. Thank you both for joining me to speak on this. And that's Vera Hobhouse, MP and Hope Virgo. Thank you so much. And as I mentioned earlier, if you've been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, there are support links on the BBC's Actionline website. Thank you.

Now to the US where President, we will come back to that Thank you. Now to the US, where President... We will come back to that story, actually. Now, Professor Dame Elizabeth Anionwu was the country's first specialist sickle cell nurse counsellor in the 1970s,

when the disease was not very well known or understood. She's now been honoured with a plaque and she will officially open Brixton Blood Donor Centre today. Dame Elizabeth spoke to Emma Barnett on Woman's Hour in September 2021 and Emma asked her how she became

involved with sickle cell in the first place. I call it three Ps. Professional as a health visitor because I came across families with the condition in the early 70s and had never been taught anything about it. So that's professional. Personal, I found my father literally at the age of 25 and discovered I had a cousin with the illness. And politically, well, politically, I think that's pretty straightforward. There wasn't sufficient, it wasn't really on the agenda of the NHS. And the groups of us decided, hold on, it needs to be on it and much higher on the agenda as well. So politically with a small P as it were and then sometimes with a bigger P and we should say if people don't know sickle cell disease most people affected are of African

or African Caribbean origin although the sickle cell gene is found in all ethnic groups. When you say that you found your father it's fair to say you didn't know much about your own Nigerian heritage on your father's side for a long time. You're absolutely right. My parents weren't married. I was the outcome of their affair at Cambridge University just after the Second World War. Nobody ever mentioned my father. I grew up in a children's home until the age of nine. My mother never, ever rejected me, by the way. But, you know, nobody spoke about it. And yet I was the only black child in the family and I couldn't really ask anybody why. Your mother was white, we should say.

My mother was white of Irish heritage, yes. And sticking with your work on Sickle Cell, you talk about it being a gradual process, going to people, convincing them and trying to take their needs seriously in a system that wasn't catering for them. Where did you go? How did you get to people? Did you go to where they were? Did you go to community halls? How did you get your message out there? Well, my background is nursing and health visiting and it was the health visiting experience that helped me enormously because that involves going into people's homes you need to be very respectful to for people to allow you into their homes and I think that was a that was a huge advantage in talking to people

in their homes about sickle cell but also going into being invited by community groups to talk to them about it and you know media as well uh yeah it was a range of uh formats in a way and um do you know although it was very serious and hard work it was great fun as well because to see the delight on people's eyes when they started to understand this condition that impacted their family was fantastic because you you were taking it seriously in a system that hadn't yet i think that's the that's I think that's the most important point, that there were those of us within the NHS that were making it clear that the NHS had to take this condition seriously. And that impacted very positively within the community. Dame Elizabeth Anionu, talking to Emma Barnett there, who's being honoured with a blue plaque in Brixton today.

If you want to hear the full interview, all you need to do is go to BBC Sounds and search for Woman's Hour. And that was from the 16th of September 2021. Now to the US, where President Donald Trump spent his first day back in the Oval Office yesterday, signing executive orders, issuing pardons and outlining his plans for the country. But what do his actions so far mean for women in America? Well, joining me now is Anne McElvoy, host of the Politico Transatlantic podcast Power Play. Morning, Anne. Good morning. I want to start first with diversity, if I can.

Last night, President Trump issued a White House memo telling agency to prepare to lay off all staff in diversity, equality and inclusion programmes, sometimes called DEI. What does this mean? Well, I think we've seen a lot of companies basically leaning into that even before the inauguration and before this was signed into the executive orders by Donald Trump. We've seen the major companies can't wait to back off this. They never really were bought into it being something that they were obliged to do. orders by Donald Trump. We've seen the major companies can't wait to back off this. They never really were bought into it being something that they were obliged to do. Some of them think they're better at it themselves. Some of them think meritocracy will see women rise as they should without having to have special roles. And then you've got all those arguments. Some of them,

were just being rude, but there was an element of truth in them about DEI hires and companies saying, well, I didn't really want to hire this person, but I felt I should for this quota. Donald Trump wants to make even more of this. He does also see it as part of a culture war on anything that is regarded as woke. that the head of the Coast Guard service was very important in America because it also protects America against this terrible infusion of fentanyl and drug killing people in large numbers. He's saying she's underperformed. Of course, she and her supporters would say absolutely not. But she was seen as being very much a DEI person and a woman.

She's a four-star military officer. Not many women in those roles. She's gone, you know, she's gone within two days. That will send some signals that he means more by this than just a war on DEI. Yeah. Just to clarify, this is a, Trump's memo went to government agencies last night, didn't it? Yes. The big difference, you're right to clarify that, actually. It went to government agencies, which means, of course, that they have to act on that if they are. And we've got problems with your line there.

We'll give it a minute. You've disappeared into a tunnel somewhere. We'll see if we can get you back. In the meantime, I'm going to read out lots more of your messages come through whilst we try and figure out what's happened to Anne's line there.

We are going to be discussing in a moment, sons still living at home as adults. Another message here saying, my middle son has been a bit of a boomerang kid, comes and goes from time to time

and done a lot of travelling. He's been back home for a while and though we've had our ups and downs, he's largely been a very caring person to share our home with. He does his own washing. We share the cooking and shopping.

Pays his way and is very helpful and supportive to me, his ailing elder mother, Anne. Well done, Anne, for bringing up a son who does his own washing. That's very good. Keep your thoughts coming in. Here's another one. My son is 29 and still living at home.

He pays about £2 pounds a month and i save 100 pounds of it he's not seeing anyone so it's very difficult for him to buy a house as prices are too high he has his washing done meals cooked he keeps his own room tidy and changes his own bed imagine that we're happy to help him as much as we can 84844 is the number to text let's see if i can uh reconnect with anne you're in davos right now on uh maybe that's why the line oh no we'll see if we can get him back and we're still trying to figure out what's happened to the line there but in the meantime let's carry on this conversation shall we about uh sons and children living at home into their adult life more and more young people are having to

live with their parents for longer. The number of 25 to 34 year olds still living at home has gone up by more than a third in the last two decades. And a report by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has found that young men are even more likely to stay in the family home than women. Nearly a quarter of men in that age group are in their family home compared to 15% of young women. So joining me to discuss this and the realities of living with adult sons is writer, counsellor and mum of four, Lucy Cavendish, and Dr. Hannah Schaberski, Associate Professor at the University of Exeter and CEO of the Association for Family Therapy. Hannah and Lucy, welcome to Woman's Hour. Lucy, you're currently living with three of your four children.

How many of them are sons? I've got three sons and one daughter. I've got my, let's say, middle two sons living with me and they are 22 and 20 and my eldest son is 28 and if we hadn't had to downsize, he'd be living with me too. I can tell you that right now. Why? Why are they all still with you? What's happening with you what's happening with me for all sorts of reasons I think uh so one main reason which everyone's mentioned is money you know it is a very different world for them they're the

first generation that that are going to earn less than their parents that they're not that they're in jobs uh my other son works actually with the NHS. They work very hard. They are not clearing the amount of money it's going to cost them to move out and they want to save. Also, they like living with me. You know, I'm a really lovely person to live with. We all get on very well. I like living with them most of the time,

not all of the time, but they're helpful. They cook, they do the laundry. And as someone else said and i absolutely agree with this in other cultures it is totally totally acceptable for people to live with their families their family-oriented dynamics and there's a lot of healthy stuff there but actually they got you know they've got nice beds they've got you know relatively nice house you know the washing machine works and they're not having to take a lot of responsibility for that sort of day-to-day grind that means that I'm taking that responsibility that's the downside because the mental emotional load on us parents is carrying on a lot longer than we

probably thought it was going to uh okay so why are you taking on the mental responsibility Lucy why aren't they doing that stuff and you step back a bit? Oh, yeah. No, I know I have stepped back a bit. I have stepped back a bit. I definitely have. So it's things like when I sit down and say, let's talk about putting the bills in your name,

they sort of disappear. It evaporates somewhere else. You know, that kind of world you know i'm gradually you know to the the younger two my eldest son of course does all that where's your daughter is your daughter at home as well my daughter's at home but she's seven she's young yeah yeah so she gets she's allowed she's allowed to be here you know i haven't managed to get a sleeve yet yeah they are taking i mean i don't cook for them i don't you know don't clean their rooms i don't do their laundry they help me out a bit financially they're saving to move out i don't think you think

my 22 year old wants to move out because he wants to plan his xbox and it's really noisy and we're and i'm constantly saying get off it's noisy be quiet i need to sleep you know there's tension but a lot of the time we have a lot of fun and i think people like living at home because they have fun with their siblings and my my 20 year old said you know I like living here because every time I I'm in the house there's someone here that I like and I thought well that's why that's why it works it's when there's someone in the house you don't like that things start getting a bit more complicated 84844 tell me your experience um Lucy why do you think young men tend to stay at home

longer than women? Well, I think that's an interesting one, because if the women aren't staying at home, where are they going? Are they moving in with other people? I think men like being around their mothers. I have to say that is that healthy for them? I'm sure people have a lot to say about that with my counselling. I think, you know, men's brains don't actually form properly till they're 25. I think it takes a little bit more time to grow these men. And we want healthy adult males, we want healthy adult females, but we're sort of growing them out of like a grow bag so that they can go forth and be good people in the world. And I think they just need a little bit more time to detach. You just said men like to be around their mothers is there something about mothers

who like to keep their sons close as well? Well I'm very happy to keep all my children close for me it's not just it's not I mean I think women and mothers and daughters clash a bit more than mothers and sons I think the relationship with boys for women is a lot easier I find my relationship with my son so much easier that kind of pretty bog standard you feed them you run them they've always been like that and then you say you know you do them a bit of stroking they and they like all that um do mothers not having sons around maybe i don't think dads necessarily do because they have to do that you know oedipal clashing so it it may be more of a i think there's a mother and son thing that goes on.

I do think that, yeah. This is good conversation. Hannah, I'm going to bring you in. Is there something about sons enjoying being looked after for longer, more than daughters? Hi, Anita and Lucy. It's lovely to be here. I think it's a really interesting question, isn't it?

And I really agree with you, Lucy. I think there's something sort of stereotypical about that idea about mothers and sons. But it does pose some questions about how we're bringing up our young men and whether they feel less incentivised, but also less equipped to set up on their own in the same way that we kind of expect young women to be equipped. So I think there are some bigger societal questions really about the kind of expectations that we place on young men, perhaps. You did mention there, Lucy, that other cultures, it is perfectly normal. In fact, yeah, absolutely.

South Asian culture, it's traditionally boys would just remain at home and they'd get married and then the wives move in with them. But there is also, you know, conversely, the idea of mothers doing everything for their sons and sort of breeding little princes and daughters move away because they know no one's going to do it for them. So they're about as well just go and do it for themselves. Is that sort of spreading out amongst society, do you think, Hannah? I think, I mean, one of the things I just wanted to say is I think it's important to make a distinction about adult children living at home because I think there are two more typical scenarios. There's adult children who haven't yet left home. And I think for adult children who haven't yet left home, that brings up a number of different sort of challenges

and considerations compared to young adults who've left home and then returned. I think those are two slightly different scenarios, actually, that are quite... It's important to pay attention to, because I think if we think about leaving home as a rite of passage, for those young people who haven't left home, sometimes that can be tricky. I think for whatever reason, perhaps something hasn't happened yet in the relationship in terms of independence and sort of detangling themselves from their family home, from their parents, which is, you know, which is very, very different.

For people who haven't left home yet, I think there can be real challenges in terms of becoming overly dependent or parents becoming overly caretaking of those, which is what you were kind of referring to, Lucy, in a way. But for those young people who've left, they might have had that kind of rite of passage of feeling independent and having left home. And then coming home can feel very, very different because you're having to renegotiate all those boundaries,

all those roles and responsibilities. You know, maybe those young people have lived really successful, independent lives for a period of time, and then they have to come home and sort of fit back into their old lives. And that can be really challenging for the young person and for their parents, I think, and siblings. We've got lots of messages coming through on those. I'm going to read a couple out. I love having my 23 year old at home. He's more emotionally intelligent than my husband and there to support me when I need it. Probably the wrong way around, but I'm very grateful for him.

Another one here saying, my son just turned 50. He moved in with me after my husband died, but we soon found out sharing a kitchen caused too much friction, so I made a separate flat for him upstairs. He's here four days a week with his girlfriend elsewhere, the other three. It it works well for us i did not want to be alone in this big house and another one here saying we have always made it a policy with our three adult children that they've ever needed to return to their childhood home they are welcome with no add-ons complications costs last year our middle son suffered badly with his mental health and spent many weeks coming home

recovering going back to his life and seesawing between the two with patience love and much cooking things always got better i know we've done our best when he now calls more frequently infrequently and has a girlfriend a flat and a good job and that's from debbie um we've mentioned that uh we're talking about things that very how things are done in british culture but lots of other parts of the world, people remain within the home. Sons remain within the home. You have the extended family model. Could things be learnt from that? Is it necessarily a rite of passage, do you think?

Hannah? I mean, I think there's a huge amount to learn. And, of course, yeah, there's plenty of families live very happily in multigenerational households, both in the UK and right across the world. And, in fact, it's the norm in many parts of the world, in most parts of the world. So I think it can be, of course, a really nurturing place financially and practically very supportive. Of course, if there are grandchildren in the mix, then we're talking about multi-generational households where you've got childcare care you know supportive relationships that are

going to be really helpful as well um so i think maybe we're looking at a revision um of different ways in which we can live our lives maybe we're reconsidering what a sort of typical uh western nuclear family looks like and we're actually starting to realize there are great benefits um if if that's what everybody's signing up for and I guess it's that you know what are the reasons behind why a young person is still living at home? Yeah Lucy can you imagine signing up for that? Partners moving in, grandchildren in the home? If I had a big house I'd be more than happy. I think it's healthy, I think it's emotionally healthy and also you know there's a couple of things I've just had to say quickly. Number one children living at home doesn't mean to say they're not independent they can be perfectly

independent and still be living at home and you have your boundaries set up so that my kids come home and put their stuff down and go wash my stuff mom they lead independent lives we're sharing we're sharing at home we're helping out financially also i don't think people my my daughter's just just as likely to stay as my son's. I don't think it's a gendered thing necessarily that girls move out because, you know, no one's going to look after them. I don't think that's actually the case for many houses. I think people like having their children around them. I think it's healthy.

Thank you both very much for speaking to me on this. 84844, keep your thoughts coming in. Lucy Cavendish and Dr. Hannah Schabersky, thank you so much. And now I think we can go back to Anne McElvoy to carry on our discussion about Trump's decisions around women in the last 24 hours. So back to his appointments that he's made. How are women fitting into his new regime and generally? Well, the truth is that if you are a kind of woman who's on board with the trump agenda he has a very strong personal sense of people he likes around him whether it's men or or women but he does like some women and trust them uh close to him suzy wiles is his very powerful uh chief

of staff who we've spoken about once before actually on women's hour when it was a bit of a surprise people thought there'd be some kind of of macho chief of staff shouting at everyone and ordering them about. She's very quiet. She operates from the back of the room. She has this kind of Mar-a-Lago glam, the big sunglasses, the Gucci bags. But, you know, she's absolutely the person that you need to go through if you want anything to do with Donald Trump. Tulsi Gabbard, national security, an absolute wild card, it must be said. Someone too close to Russia for much comfort. But, you know, these are people with strong views where Trump thinks, yes, I like them.

I trust them. He likes successful businesswomen. He's put some of those into key positions. Often you kind of wonder whether the fit of the expertise and the job is right, but it's always with Donald Trump. It's always about his gut and what he believes will work for him and will work for the MAGA project.

You mentioned briefly that as part of identifying and removing more than a thousand of Trump's predecessors, appointees, Admiral Linda Fagan was yesterday relieved of her duties as head of the US Coast Guard. She's one of eight uniformed services in the US,

part of Homeland Security, responsible for maritime security. She was the first woman to lead a branch of the US Armed Forces. Why was her appointment significant in the first place? I think it was significant because it was a tough operational job. If you look at Homeland Security, which you've probably seen at Home and the long-running drama, there are certainly, clearly there are women who have

been in Homeland Security under every administration at least in modern times. But actually putting someone into the head of a service, the Coast Guard, perhaps to British ears sounds slightly minor, but if you think of the size of the American coast, the implications and the fact that such a lot of jeopardy,

whether it is this influx or fentanyl, often driven not only, but a lot of it driven by China and finding ways of smuggling, whether it's weapons, whether it's drugs, et cetera, into the US. Safety, the coastal safety, is just such a big question. It links right into a view of homeland security. And in fact, he's just basically said he doesn't really want her there.

She hasn't had time to prove herself under Donald Trump. She's one of the first out of the door. And that will have sent shivers through a lot of the security services and the administration more broadly. I think people who want to see more women in those leading positions, they'll maybe think twice. And very quickly, another woman who made the headlines

was the Right Reverend Mariam Edgar Bouda, Bishop of Washington, first female leader of the Episcopal Church in Washington. What did she say to the president during her sermon? It was the fact that he was sitting there, I think, that gave it that edge. She said very calmly, but she sent a very strong sense of warning about the incoming administration when she asked trump to be merciful uh to those who could suffer from his immigration policies his plan to deport those undocumented migrants which have carried out at scale would of course have

massive implications for them for their families and lgbtq people and that was really i think coming back at him over saying there are only two genders, period, full stop, and that it would not be respected. Anything else wouldn't be respected. That was, in fairness, also an attack on the president who was sitting right in front of her. She comes from a liberal church tradition.

It's a very important church in Washington. Donald Trump didn't like it. Thank you, Anne. I'm glad we managed to get you back on and sort the line out, Anne McElvoy. And the last text from you before the end of the programme. I'm a son. I didn't move out till 25,

whereas my sister already did at 18. Save for a house deposit, though. Thank you, Greg. Join me tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, this is Marian Keyes. And this is Tara Flynn. We host a podcast you might like for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds

called Now You're Asking. Each week we take real listeners' questions about life, love, lingerie, cats, dogs, dentists,

pockets, or the lack of, anything really, and apply our worldly wisdom in a way which we hope will help, but also hopefully entertain. Join us, why don't you? Search up Now You're Asking on BBC Sounds.

Thanking you. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.