Woman's Hour - Female conductors, Talking to children about Andrew Tate, Jenny Beavan, FGM and Pub birth.

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

Women conductors are in the limelight this week with a film called “Tar”, which opens in cinemas today, starring Cate Blanchett depicting the life of Lydia Tár - a fictional world-renowned composer-conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic. The American conductor Marin Alsop famously observed that women are more likely to lead a G7 country or become four-star generals in the US Army than they are to be the principal conductor of a big orchestra. Anita Rani speaks to one our listener Emma Warren who got in touch with us as she is the only woman on her choral conducting course at The Royal Academy and Joséphine Korda who has just been announced by Opera North as their latest Female Conductor Trainee. Yesterday we talked about Andrew Tate and other social media influencers who are spreading misogynistic messages online. Several listeners got in touch to tell us about how their children have come across this kind of material and with concerns about how best to talk about it with them. Anita is joined by Dr Emily Setty, Senior Lecturer at the University of Surrey who does research in schools with young people about sex and relationships and Michael Conroy founder of Men at Work, an organisation that trains professionals how to have constructive dialogue with boys. Jenny Beavan has spent over 40 years dressing the greats of Hollywood for film and screen. She is an 11 time Oscar nominated (and 3 time Oscar winning) costume designer, whose work you will be familiar with from films such as Sense and Sensibility, The King’s Speech, and Mad Max: Fury Road. She has just been longlisted for the BAFTA Award for Best Costume Design for her work on Mrs Harris Goes to Paris. The film tells the story of Ada Harris, played by Lesley Manville, a cleaning lady who – unsurprisingly – travels to Paris, after she sees a Dior dress belonging to one of her clients and is determined to own one of her own. Jenny joins Anita to tell us about the process of recreating old Dior designs and the transformative power of that perfect dress!More than 25 years ago, the World Health Organisation made a commitment to eradicate Female Genital Mutilation across the world. Despite this, around eight thousand women and girls each day go through FGM. To understand why this is still happening, Anita Rani will hear from WHO researcher Dr Christina Pallitto and charity CEO Nkatha Mugao, who helps women and girls in Kenya who have been cut, and is working to stop FGM.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to Woman's Hour. We have made it to Friday. Have you seen the excellent film Mrs Harris Goes to Paris? If you haven't, I'm highly recommending it as a weekend watch. It's a beautiful fairy tale about a middle-aged cleaner in 1950s London who goes to Paris for a Dior dress.

But the dress represents so much more than simply a garment. It's her dreams and has a transformative effect on her life. It really is a joy to watch. Lesley Manville is brilliant, of course, as Mrs Harris, but the costumes are incredible. And today we have three-time Oscar-winning costume designer Jenny Bevan on the programme to discuss the delicious dresses. And I don't just mean the exquisite haute couture.

The floral tea dresses she wears as a cleaner are also beautiful. So this morning, I want to hear about your special outfit. That piece that has the power to transform, that makes you feel extra special, that you put on and you come to life in a different way. You stand taller or prouder, that makes you feel beautiful and takes you out of the mundanity of your everyday life. Tell me about that dress or that coat or that trouser suit or the shoes or the sari, whatever it might be. I would love to hear about it. You can text me 84844. You can contact us via social media.

You can email me via the website or you can send us a WhatsApp. It's 03700 100 444. It's the same number if you'd like to send us a voice note too. Have it saved in your phone under Woman's Hour. And it's Friday, so we'll be talking music. That is Brahms' First Symphony, Fourth Movement, played by the Philharmonia. You can picture the orchestra playing, can't you?

But the conductor was a woman, Josephine Korda. And she'll be joining me later with Emma Warren to talk life as female conductors. They are rare in the world of classical music. But first, as we've just heard in the news, the Culture Secretary, Michelle Donilon, has said she is not ruling out changes to the government's online safety bill in the face of a major backbench rebellion. 43 Tory MPs want social media bosses to face prison if they fail to protect children from harmful online content, rather than just pay higher fines.

Well, yesterday, we talked about Andrew Tate and other social media influencers who are spreading misogynistic messages online in what is termed as the manosphere. If you missed yesterday's discussion and want to hear it, then head to BBC Sounds, search for Woman's Hour and yesterday's programme, which was the 12th of January. Well, several of you listening got in touch to tell us about your concerns, wanting advice on how to talk about these issues with your children. Here's our listener, Georgina.

I had this conversation with my son about it. I think we were travelling, actually. Normally we're at home and other things are going on or whatever it is. So actually it was time where we were having a proper conversation. And the phrase that sort of stuck in my mind was that he was bringing masculinity back, which I'd asked if he could potentially expand what he meant he meant on that which is a 12 year old I don't I don't think he really could he couldn't really articulate it and then he sort of started to kind of defend this sort of stance saying it's not just about that he you know he helps people make money and he just knew quite a

lot about him and what he does and that threw me because I just hadn't really grasped that it would be something that a 12 year old and his peers would really have come across and they clearly have. You know how do you engage you know to try and challenge, question, healthy conversation about misogyny, about masculinity? So how do you engage? This morning we're going to try and answer some of your questions and give you practical advice about how to talk to your sons. 84844 is the number to text. I'm joined by Dr Emily Setty, a senior lecturer at the University of Surrey who does research into schools with young people about sex and relationships, and Michael Conroy, founder of Men at Work, an organisation which trains professionals how to have constructive dialogue with boys.

Welcome to you both. Michael, I'm going to come to you first. You're actually doing the work right now, aren't you? You've got a class behind you. Yeah, I'm very fortunate. I'm in a wonderful school in Dorset. It's the second day. I'm working with 16 male teachers, so in the thick of it, and they've been very flexible with me, so I'm very 16, working with 16 male teachers. So in the thick of it, and they've been very flexible with me. So I'm very grateful. Yeah, and we are very grateful to them as well to get, for that they've given you this time to be able to talk to us

because we did get quite a big reaction to the discussion we had yesterday. So let's get straight into it. What's the best way to broach the subject if you are worried your kid might be exposed to this sort of material online? Well, I think we've got two questions. One is how do we respond to what is emerging in the news? So that's one set of responses. But I think ideally we need to be strategic

and to slow, steady, well-planned, well-organised conversations in schools, colleges and at home. And your caller there was talking about having a conversation with their son while they were driving or travelling. That's probably a really good way of doing it. Because there's something a little bit intimidating about a face-to-face eye contact. Tell me about this guy you've been watching online. It's got a funny vibe to it.

Whereas there's a lot of good conversations happen when you're both facing the same direction, even going for a walk or walking the dog or whatever it might be, or maybe over dinner. But I think things to avoid are jumping in or guns blazing in an accusatory or terrified way, because we're very slow to the party in this. We can hear you nice and clear, don't worry. I'm sorry. So very slow to the party in this as adults.

And I think that's the problem is that the, apologies again, our young people have been exposed to him for months and months or longer. But we as adults in our 30s, 40s, 50s, we think he's just been discovered. And I saw a tweet today by this guy saying we should stop talking about him, otherwise he's going to make him more famous. And that speaks volumes about how little we know about how the internet works and how young people are exposed to material, not necessarily by looking for it, but by looking for them via the algorithmic systems.

I was listening to a girl from a college in Northern Ireland this morning on the radio, and she was saying that she keeps trying to block it, block it 10 times a day. It keeps coming because of the way that it's designed. It's not Andrew Tate sending it. It's hundreds of thousands of other accounts and bots that are sharing it, and that makes it really difficult. Which is why this advice that you and Emily

are going to be able to give to the listeners who are concerned is going to be invaluable this morning. Emily, I'm going to come to you. Michael just said, you know, slow, steady conversation, walking, driving, doing something other than just having a one-to-one confrontation. It is the ideal for most negotiations, I suppose. But for mums, it must be incredibly triggering to

hear your son come out with a misogynistic view. How do you stop yourself from a knee-jerk reaction? Yeah, no, and I completely sympathise with that. I think people like Michael and I, we go in and we speak with young people and you are that sort of step removed, right? So you can sit and you can let them talk about their feelings and talk about their perspectives on all this without feeling so kind of caught up in it I think as a parent it's really difficult when you're dealing with your own child and yeah particularly as a mother maybe feeling uncomfortable around some of the sexism and misogyny that's being expressed and I think being easy on yourself as a result not you're not going in as a professional you not going in as a professional

you're going in as a parent and that will pose challenges but also you have a real scope there within that role to do something for your children I think taking the pressure off everything being solved in one conversation you know the first conversation be it in the car when you're walking the dog or whatever you're doing is the start to building a dialogue with your child about some of what's going on right and hearing and accepting some of what they're saying you know the clip that you had around you know bringing back masculinity these ideas just being open to that as a starting point and then slowly with your child over time trying to tease out right what are some of the deeper things that are going on here how are you feeling as you know a developing boy at the current time what's your what's going on for your identity what's

going on for your relationships and starting to unpack some of that through that parent-child relationship which is about love and care and this kind of intimate knowledge of what's going on for your child, right? So you can offer that, but it's not necessarily all going to be solved in one conversation. So it's taking the pressure off of you and them, right? These are big societal, deep-rooted ideas about personal development and what we expect from ourselves and other people in our relationships. This is stuff that can be built over the kind of childhood and teenage years through that parenting relationship like you say these are in a lot of these are entrenched societal views that have been around like feminists have been battling for years the sort of patriarchal views held around the world

but we're getting quite a big reaction to this conversation so i want to go to some of our listeners questions um lula has been in touch to say um ask that she'd like to know how you'd feel if someone thought it was a could you ask your child how they'd feel if someone thought it was okay to beat their sister cheat on her or control her also stop pussyfooting around them sometimes we need to tell our kids that something is morally abhorrent and forbidden in the home. Is that the right approach, Michael? I think we have to express our beliefs and our boundaries, absolutely. But I think there are ways and means of doing that that don't shut down a conversation. I think by being clear, I think what we need to do

is know exactly what the content is. And this might strike some people as odd, but when I found out about TAI in august when i was on holiday with my kids and my nephews they brought him to my attention and i read i watched a lot of his videos and you can't get that time back unfortunately but i watched hours of his stuff so i think that's important we need to know certainly if we're in any kind of uh professional context we need to know what he's saying otherwise Otherwise, it's all second-hand information. And that will be a weakness because the boys and your men have got first-hand information.

So we need to join them where they are, unfortunately, and become almost as expert in it as they are. And that might be unpalatable, but I can't see an easy way out otherwise. What did you say to your nephews? Well, luckily, there was, you know, I can't see an easy way out otherwise. What did you say to your nephews? Well, luckily there was, you know, I can't use the word, but they're not very complimentary about him. They're good lads. But they're good lads.

But in schools, I train schools regularly, every other day or every day almost now. And since September, his name has been mentioned in every single session. And that did not happen before summer holidays. So it's almost like he's crossed over from young people's bubble online into the old folks bubble and that's where we are now. We are playing catch up and we've got a lot of work to do.

So what do you say to teachers then? Tell us a bit about what you're telling them today. For sure. Well, hopefully a lot of it is asking i think that's the conversation to have with boys and young men they're ex they are experts in their own experience uh we know about safeguarding you know as professionals as parents and carers we know about the bigger picture and we've seen people like typeate for decades haven't we we instantly dismiss them as what they are as spivs and snake oil salesmen

but you know the 13, 14 15 you haven't got the life experience to contextualise what is being said and he wraps it in this very glamorous showbiz style package which is very alluring to young boys but he's sneaking it in.

It's kind of, if it was just the misogyny, there would be a different scale of his following. If it was just the lifestyle, it might be a very big following as well. But the two together is particularly toxic. So I think he profits from the ubiquity of pornography, which has already done a lot of work on the minds of boys and young men in terms of objectifying women. And I think he stands on top of that prior work that porn has done.

I'm keen to go to some of the questions and also hear from someone who got in touch with us on the programme yesterday. So let's hear from another listener who wanted to remain anonymous. For about four or five years, I've been seeing what my son's watching on YouTube. What's been filtering through is this misogyny and it's everywhere. His case is special because he has autism, high functioning autism. He's off school with depression and anxiety. And so he's on the internet a lot of the time. And although he's not in his room, I'm quite often hearing what he's listening to. And he's a captive audience for people like Andrew Tate.

He does seem to speak to young men. From what I've heard of what he fears, it is militant feminism that's anti-men. That's a massive message that's coming through from these sites, from these people. There is a feminazi movement that's out to get men, belittle men, kind of take over. And as a 14-year-old boy, the idea of the Me Too movement has been really weaponized, as I've seen coming up through him. How do you interact with a woman without being accused of rape? That's a massive fear for him. Obviously, he's too young to actually have had any interaction with women or girls,

but he's getting the message that it's unsafe to do so because the woman has the upper hand. She can always accuse you of rape and then you might go to prison. It's as clear a cut as that for him. Emily, our listener talks there about the weaponisation of the Me Too movement. How can we reassure them? Yeah, I think this is a really pertinent point and it's coming out of a lot of the discussions I'm having with teenage boys at the moment. And I think a big clue is actually in what we just heard. Actually, most teenage boys aren't sexually active. They're not having relationships with girls. This is all very hypothetical. Girls and women almost become symbols, actually, within male peer groups, within ideas of masculinity in ways that actually if a boy was by himself with a girl it would all fall to pieces and he wouldn't know what to do

there are these very kind of hostile simplified us and them narratives out there at the moment exactly as kind of michael's intimating logics of social media the way in which public discourse is operating right now yeah this is a feature of the climate in which young people are developing. And I think what we need to be doing here is encouraging real critical consciousness around young people about the false prospectus that all sides of these arguments are portraying about some of the solutions to these problems, right? What guys like Andrew Tate are saying is, yeah, all this kind of vulnerability and insecurity

that you're feeling as boys in terms of masculinity, right, I'm going to package it up and give you a solution in this very kind of cartoonish form of masculinity that is ultimately a false prospectus that is then almost then recreating the very conditions of precarity, right? Because these boys don't have access to this notion of masculinity that's being put up. It's actually making them more fearful of girls and women and making the problem worse. Right.

And we need to see, OK, what context is it feeding into and what's it exacerbating? And how can we be equipping boys, young people in general, to start dissecting some of these messages and start working out what are they actually absorbing into their own identity? What are they taking then into the kind of boys and men that they ultimately want to be? And what would be some different model that isn't predicated on this hostility between girls and boys and this idea that you're the enemy and boys want one thing and girls want another thing and that is ultimately going to always come together in a dangerous and a risky way what other models of gender relations can we put up in front of them so a couple of listeners have got in touch to to ask about the role of men in all of this someone's just messaged to say what about men dads uncles and schools being involved around eight years old?

Boys look to men regarding male identity. So, and someone else said, an anonymous listener, that she's more attuned to this issue than her husband. So Michael, how do dads engage in these conversations and do they engage as much as mums? I would say in a very broad brushstroke, no, unfortunately. And that's an outcome of the gender stereotypical way

that we are trained as humans to have these oppositional kind of characteristics that the things domestic and emotional and nurturing are kind of allocated to women and the outside world, if you like, is allocated to men. I think that's... It's a very chicken and egg situation. But the answer is yes, dads have to, uncles have to, granddads, stepdads, older brothers.

So the responsibility is ours primarily. It's men's problem. 50% of our audience are men. Tell them, what should they be doing? Stop using porn, number one. I would say categorically, and I don't mind if that puts anybody's backs up at all, I would say stop using porn and understand that your children are accessing pornography.

The pornography industry, which is worth hundreds of billions, has developed sophisticated algorithms to find them. That's a fact. It's uncomfortable for a lot of people, but reality is reality. The other thing is learn to talk more to your kids and don't leave it to your, if you're straight in a straight partnership, don't leave it to your wife.

Don't leave it to your girlfriend. You can talk as well. You're fully human. This is the problem. I don't really have a, I'm not really interested in masculinity. It might sound weird. I'm interested in humanity.

I'm a male human being. And I think that's got infinite possibilities, as has being a female human being. I think the ideas of gender stereotyping are restrictive and toxic per se, and people like Andrew Tay will always happen while we have them deeply entrenched, and I think we're going backwards

in terms of gender stereotyping and fetishising the roles of masculinity and femininity, when really we should be looking at what is humanity about. That's my fundamental point. But dads, uncles, granddads get stuck in, brothers. Let's hear from a dad. That's it. This is another listener. He's called Dan. Let's have a listen.

I've got a 13-year-old son and an 11-year-old daughter, and I'm painfully aware that they know who Andrew Tate is and he's very much on their radar within their school community I suppose now my daughter is not interested either way my son tells me he isn't and I'm concerned that he I think he certainly seems to put Andrew Tate on a bit of a pedestal. He tells me he doesn't watch or participate in any of his footage, but I know for definite that his friends do. And he is very aware of the whole Andrew Tate enterprise, I suppose. I think that the fact that he appears wealthy and successful draws these kids in to a certain extent.

I'm not sure they particularly understand there's any evil intent. It feels a bit like the Pied Piper, really. Part of the reason he appeals to these kids is, I think it's harder to be a boy nowadays and just to grow up as a young boy and act like a boy and rough and tumble and play competitive sports. This seems to be being eroded quite a lot through society, as far as I can see. There's so much confusion with gender and all sorts of other bits and pieces. I think it makes it easy for someone like Andrew Tate to be the guy that they look up to and see as aspirational, really. Where can we point our kids

for better role models in life well um emily what do you make of what dan's saying there i think i think michael answered it a little bit before didn't he yeah no you're right and i think it's tricky with some of this because yeah you don't actually want to keep going down the route of boys need these particular role models and girls need this particular role model and all of that, because societal changes do lead to different emphases on different ways of being. presuming boys need something and presuming something is harmful for them or whatever. It's actually about engaging with individual boys about what makes sense for them. Right. And exactly as Michael was saying, it's about humanity. And I don't think parents can change some of this context. You know, there probably is some truth that at the current time, you know, gender identities influx, all these ideas about what it means to be a boy, what it means be a girl and all of this is in flux right you as a parent can't necessarily change all that you can't magic up a bunch of role models of all various forms of diversity that's going to

make sense for every single young person that's developing what you can do is you can sit down with your child and talk about that reality and talk about what it means to your child to be developing within that context and what they think and feel about some of these matters. Create a space to work through some of these issues and give voice to these boys and young men without shutting them down. And I think it goes back to this original point. Yeah, of course, there's this indication that we want zero tolerance, but actually, you know, we have to make space for it. So here's the thing, Emily, and I think, you know, I really liked Michael's advice of talking in the car or maybe going for a walk. So it kind of takes you out of that strict confrontational head on setting.

At what point do you stop listening and give them an alternative view? At what point do you step in and say, okay, now how about this? Well, I mean, exactly as you say, right? You hear it out, you hear some of the, and we know also teenage boys, they're probably not gonna say a lot in succession. You are gonna have to drop in your own thoughts and feelings as you go.

I think it's all about how it's done. You can do it pretty quickly. If they're saying things like, you know, Andrew tate's bringing back masculinity then great say okay what types of masculinity and if they go well it's cool you know it's cars and it's this and it's that and say oh well that's interesting like from my perspective that's kind of just this one really basic form of masculinity is that all masculinity is about do it through the conversation but ask it through questions i don't think judging or shaming in

particular boys is going to get us out of this problem saying how would you feel if it was your sister oh how awful of you to even express this view that's not necessarily going to change the view it's just going to make the boy ashamed potentially of the view so it's almost role playing and getting them to think about what they're saying because they're making statements they're repeating what's being said online but maybe they haven't and what it was like. Bring it in. As long as it's non-confrontational, non-judgmental and non-shame based, you can very easily convey your opinion. What young people often close down on is if they think they're being told, no, you're just wrong. You personally are doing something wrong. Nobody likes that.

Empathy, right? Yeah, exactly. Empathy is key. Emily, fascinating. Thank you so much. And also thank you to Michael and thank you to all of you who have been in touch with your questions I'm sorry I didn't get

through all of them but hopefully throughout the conversation a lot of your questions were answered we may come back to this because the reaction was so huge

off the back of that but thank you if you did send me a message now my next guest has spent over 40 years dressing the greats of Hollywood for film and screen.

Jenny Bevan is an 11-time Oscar nominated and three-time Oscar winning costume designer whose work you will be familiar with from films such as Sense and Sensibility, The King's Speech, Mad Max, Fury Road and Cruella. Amazing. She's just been long listed for the BAFTA Award for Best Costume Design for her work on Mrs Harris Goes to Paris. The film tells the story of Ada Harris, played by Leslie Manville, a cleaning lady who unsurprisingly travels to Paris after she sees a Dior dress belonging to one of her clients, and she's determined to own one. It is my recommendation.

If you haven't seen it, watch it this weekend. It's a delight. I'm joined now by the designer of the on-screen dress, Jenny. Welcome to the programme. Thank you. I'm really honoured to be here. Oh, it's great to have you. The film, I mean, it is just absolutely delicious. It centres around the world of haute couture. When this script came to you, did you instantly think,

oh, I've got to do it? How does it work? I always approach things with caution these days. Why is that? It was a glorious script and a lovely story. And I'm rather thrilled at the moment, as you know, the last conversations, the world is in such a terrible place. And this film just does bring a moment of joy and maybe escapism.

But it also does tell the story of a woman following her dream through hard work and perseverance. No, it was, I watched it and it made me weep actually because it was, I mean, A, because, you know, I'm just getting weepier as the older I get, but also it's the transformative power of that one dress. And yes, tell me what you think about the transformative power of this, because we've actually asked the listeners to get in touch about the dress that makes them feel something else. Lots of people have been in touch. We'll talk about those in a minute.

Yeah, you must experience it working with these incredible A-list, high-profiling actresses, putting that dress on and watching them transform. It is part of the joy of the job, the fittings. You can have all the ideas and obviously the actor will normally have all the ideas and when you come together and actually put clothes on someone that is the moment when you know really whether you've won or you haven't and often you actually learn more about what doesn't work. So it's terribly important if they look terrible in it to just hold it a minute and assess what you're looking at.

But the dress in question was a real challenge because it has to tell so many stories that actually nobody puts it on. And normally it is, as I just said, when they put it on, that something that's just hung on a hanger comes to life with the body language of the actor and the whole sort of feeling and the way they'll wear it. But this, of course, is just held up. But it has to be something that Lady Dan would have liked.

And she is an older woman, you know, very beautiful. But it also has to be something Ada would obviously find extraordinary. And so that was probably the biggest challenge of the film was that one dress that nobody actually wears. The dress that sparks the imagination, that makes her think, this is it, this is what I have to do. I have to save my pennies and get to Paris. And she ends up at the Dior fashion show.

She's mesmerised by all the dresses. It is a mesmerising scene to watch and falls in love with that one particular dress called Temptation. Tell us about that dress. And also tell us about designing the dresses for that show. Well, most of them are either Dior recreations or were lent to us. We have five from what they call Dior's Heritage Collection,

which is remakes that they've remade in the 80s or 90s, I think, of some of the 50s things. But we had to make the rest because I was sort of, I sort of got the impression that Dior and I were going to be working alongside each other. We didn't quite work out like that. They were fabulously helpful. I won't say they weren't with, you know, their archives and any information, but that was sort of where it ended. So I had these wonderful makers, Jane Law and John Bright at Cosprop, making the Dior's.

And of course, both of them are fabulously knowledgeable about how Dior is constructed. So that was great. I mean, our problem was that we were in full on Covid. So our access to A, the actors and the models who were all cast in France or Hungary, they couldn't come to me. I couldn't go to them in the prep period. And B, of course, you know, none of the house, sorry, fabric stores were open. So this involved what Jane or John had in their workrooms. And they both have workrooms, so there is some fabric. But also what we could get online, and that means you can't see it

or feel it or all the usual things as a costume designer, you know, you do, which is very tactile with it. But we somehow pulled it off and i am very proud of it i will be honest no you you should be you so should be it's it's it's magical and it really taken the dior dresses the haute couture i mean it just takes your breath away but also the dresses that i mean she she's ada the cleaning lady in 1950s london she has a very specific look there which i also thought was absolutely charming, those floral dresses that you have her in.

Well, those are actually original. I mean, they're all genuine vintage dresses from Cosprop stock and very much 40s rather than 50s, as people in those days did. You didn't suddenly change fashion because that's what was going on in the world of haute couture. You kept your clothes and you mended them. And I remember it well. We didn't have a lot. You know, you had three pairs of shoes,

your indoor shoes, your outdoor shoes, and your daps or your wellingtons. And, you know, people kept stuff. And that's what I love about doing a film like this, where it's a real character and you can backdate them because that was a period they felt good in. And, of course, she obviously loves flowers and flowers. She's a cheerful soul.

And she's trying to make the best of, you know, she's hard up but not starving and works very hard. But she enjoys clothes and making the best of herself, which I think is a lovely, lovely way to be. We're getting some really nice messages in from our listeners. I'd like to read one out, Jenny, whilst I've got you here. Someone, Jane has said, I asked everyone to get in touch to tell me about the item of clothing

that makes them feel that they've just stepped into another world. Jane says, my sequined trouser suit from M&S, utter joy. A massive thank you to all delighted and encouraging ladies in the changing room. That's great because I, of course, wore M&S to one of the Oscar ceremonies to some interest from various people. Yes, you did. Can we discuss that, please? Because you dress well in these amazing gowns. But I absolutely loved watching you rock up to the Oscars in a leather jacket with a Diamante skull and crossbones on the back, was it? A skull?

And did you have jeans on as well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a sort of homage to Mad Max because I am not the shape to wear gowns. I mean, I'm just not. I never was. Short, fat and Welsh is how I describe myself. But very happy. I mean, and I just thought it would be fun to do something like that. And the jacket was actually pleather, not leather, because I'm a great Peter supporter. And the crystals on the back were put on by Jane Law again, which is the Immortan Joe symbol from Fury Road. So I was in full Fury Road mode. And although we didn't have as many bikes in Fury Road

as some of the Mad Max films, we certainly had some. And that was, I thought, and my sister said, oh, when I told her what I was going to wear, she said, oh, that would be a bit of fun, not realising she'd made the biggest understatement of the year. What was the reaction? I mean, it was fine. I felt incredibly comfortable, you know,

and I just thought, oh, goodness, whatever. Well, in my household, you got a huge cheer. Let me tell you that. Yes, I think it did go down fairly well, actually. Yeah, definitely. One for Team Woman's Hour. We loved it. And last year at the Oscars, you wore, you had messages, didn't you?

I am woman, hear me roar on one cuff and on the other naked without you. Can you tell us a bit about those? Well, that's all to do with the Costume Guild of America, which I'm a member of. And I was really trying to support them in their pay equity scheme, which is all about parity between men and women's pay in the film industry, but also, and actually for the various things like costume designers are notoriously worse paid

than various other branches. Why do you think that is? I think there's some history involved. Apparently, I learned quite a lot, in Hollywood, makeup designers earn more than hairdressers and often it's a separate job. And the reason is that the makeup artists were normally men in the 30s, 40s, 50s. And when they needed hairdoing, they brought their wives in who were then paid less I mean that's what I understand and I think there is a lot of that and it used to be an incredibly male dominated industry and I feel it's much less now but and I think a huge amount of costume designers are women although by no means all so all in all

I think I think there are problems and naked without us means you know if we weren't there they'd either go on the actors would either go naked or inappropriately dressed I think so we do have fulfill a real function and I just enjoyed again it was Cruella and she had a lot of graffiti and my wonderful artist Tom Botwood did fabulous graffiti so he drew all that and then my amazing associate designer, Lauren Rahani, sort of transcribed it onto the shirt. And it was all extremely, I have to say, I didn't spend a lot of money, but I did give a big donation to Ukraine because I just felt it's wrong

to spend money frivolously when you can have fun. We keep having fun. Keep having fun. And I cannot wait to see what you're going to wear to the baftas you can give us a hint can you give us what rebellious stance you're going to take hang on a minute hang on a minute i'm only on the long list i haven't yet got to the short list so let's just not all right okay okay well i'm just putting it out there um it's been a pleasure speaking to you and uh honestly it's such a delight to watch you.

You did Leslie Manfield, the costumes, the whole thing. It was just brilliant. Thank you so much, Jenny Bevan, for speaking to us on Woman's Sale this morning. Lots of you getting in touch with your outfits. I feel very tall when I drape and wear my 100 to 150-year-old sari known as the Parsigaras. Oh, gosh, it really is something special having a sari, isn't it? Especially one that's been passed down through the generations. Karen says, no posh frock for me.

At 52, I bought a pair of dungarees. My daughter said I wasn't too old for them and I love them. They make me feel younger and as if I can do anything. They make me feel free from the constraints of what woman should be wearing. Hear, hear to that. Absolutely. Every woman should have a pair of dungarees. Now, in 1997 1997 moving on to

our next story the world health organization joined forces with unicef and the united nations population fund to combat the practice of female genital mutilation and eradicate it once and for all despite this the process is still going on all over the world in fact it's estimated that around 8 000 women and girls are subjected to the process each day. Let that number sink in. And now there's a worry that the medicalisation of FGM is being done in medical settings, could be contributing to a slowdown in the banning of the process, especially in countries like Kenya. Well, joining me now is Nkatha Magao, CEO of the charity Frolicks of Hope in Africa that

helps children who've been through trauma such as FGM and Dr. Christina Palito, a scientist leading the work on FGM at the World Health Organization. Welcome to both of you. Nkatha, I'm going to come to you first because you're actually in Kenya where FGM is illegal, but around 91% of the girls and young women are subjected to it in the country's northern regions. Can you explain to us why FGM is such a large part of the culture in Kenya? Well, thank you so much for this opportunity. The reason why it's so rampant, especially within the northern side of Kenya, is actually because initially the culture that has been there, you know, like because culture is something that's funded down from generation to generation. And it's one of the hardest things to do away with. So it takes a lot of time before you can even get to move that wheel from what people believe in and change that perspective to what should be done right.

So that's probably one of the reasons why it's taken us so long to even get guys to even discuss about it. What are the beliefs around it? What are girls told? One of the things that a majority of the girls within these areas are told is for them to get, you know, to be real women, they must go through FGM. And sometimes you find in some communities, they say that if you're not cut as a woman or as a girl, you don't get to get a husband. So you can't make

a good husband, you can't make a good wife if you're not cut. So majority of them will actually buy into such an idea and they end up getting sad because they believe that if they're not cut, then they will not make good wives. They cannot be able to submit to a man if they're not cut. And they'll also not make good, you know, women for the community. Entrenched cultural conditioning. I'm going to bring Christina in here. Work to officially eradicate the practice of FGM started more than 25 years ago. Why is it taking so long? Yeah, thank you. First, I'd like to say that

we have seen a lot of progress. About 30 years ago, we saw that there was about every one in two girls where was undergoing FGM and 30 years later we see that it's more like one in three girls so we're seeing you know good progress we're seeing trends downward trends in many countries I think there is a lot of progress as in Catherine mentioned it's it's a really deeply rooted practice it's a social norm so you know if mothers think they're doing this in the best interest of their daughters because they want to make sure they're married they want to make sure that um they have the opportunities in life so it's not always done in a way that's trying to harm them or punish them in some way but it's really um done

to protect them with good intentions sometimes. Although it is a harmful practice that has no medical benefits whatsoever. You see the impacts and the consequences of FGM and Kath in your work helping children who've gone through the trauma. What kinds of situations are these girls in? What do they come and talk to you about? Majority of them, actually, they're, you know, very small girls. Like on Monday, we actually admitted, we admitted about six of them. And, you know, like when you're having that conversation for them,

they actually, at that moment, they may not really be certain if they are the right place or they're going to be stigmatized by the community because at the end of the day, they have to go back to the community. So you realize like we're putting them between a rock and a hard place for them to be able to explain to the society why they had to let go of the culture and why it wasn't good. Sometimes they have to explain why their parents were arrested

or probably the perpetrators doing it, why were they arrested? Why did it happen to them? So it kind of, you know, sometimes it's kind of a confusing circle for them. But the moment we get to have those long discussions with them, at the end of the day, of them we've agreed that you know it's something that's not right and as a woman or as a girl you need to you know to be fully yourself at least even you know like you don't necessarily have to go through FGM for you to be you know a grown-up woman you know you can still be grown up and you can still make a good mother

you can still make a good wife without necessarily having to be cut so but majority of them in terms of medical care majority of them come in when they are completely done like you know in terrible situations because some of them when when we get to them they probably have gone through the cut and you know they are already bleeding and probably near deathbeds and that's the time through the cut and, you know, they are already bleeding and probably near deathbeds. And that's the time now the parents realize that, you know, we are losing our girl. And unless we talk about it, unless we ask for help, then she's going to die. And that's the time they reach out asking for help. And you see now at that point, they end up getting admitted in hospitals and, you know getting getting to reverse the kind

of hurt that they would have gone through is very difficult. I mentioned that at the beginning that FGM is now happening more and more in medical settings. Christina can you tell us why this is happening and what what the impact of this is and is it the negative effect of it? Yeah what happens is that we do see this trend in a number of countries that healthcare providers, whether they're nurses or midwives or doctors in some cases, and other kind of para-health providers are actually performing FGM. So there are a number of reasons for this, but the end result is that it further perpetuates and legitimizes the practice. So we know that healthcare providers are actually trusted members of the communities,

and they can actually serve in the role as opinion leaders and as communicators for change. And this is something that we've been working on really strongly at WHO. But when they're actually performing the practice, it's another step that we have to take is making sure that that doesn't happen. We have a global strategy against the medicalization of FGM and implementing this in countries is a multi-pronged approach. What is it? What's the strategy? Yeah, so it has four prongs, basically. So it's building the political will, making sure that you have the political will, that you have funding in place to address this. It's training healthcare providers. And this is really key. It can't happen alone, but it is a really key aspect of this. a community where FGM is practiced. You understand the reasons why it's happening, but let's unpack that. Let's talk about where these traditions come from, that these traditions

may be harmful. Not all traditions are harmful, but in this case, this is a traditional practice and it's a harmful practice. So working with them to understand that it causes harm to girls. I mean, they see this, but it is often not included in the healthcare training, you know, of healthcare providers when they undergo their training, when they're studying to become licensed providers,

they often receive no training on this. So this is a step that we're trying to integrate this into the pre-service before their license, as well as those who are already practicing. In addition, there has to be some kind of consequence. So we need to have some sort of their license as well as those who are already practicing in addition there has to be um some kind of consequence so we need to have some sort of um regulatory frameworks in place there have

to be policies in place there have to be laws in place now there may be laws at the national level but the professional associations that do the licensing for example can um and you know ensure that those who actually do fgm lose their license or pay a fine or have some penalty for that. Because if it's happening in a medical setting, it makes it seem more legitimate, doesn't it? It does. And this is the issue. And also medicalised FGM doesn't always happen at the health centre itself. It's still considered medicalised FGM, even if it's done by a healthcare provider outside of the medical setting. So it may be in their home, but a midwife may come to that home. And also there are some individuals who are not strictly part of the health system, don't have a

license or not actually licensed healthcare providers, but they're seen as this. And often people think it will reduce the harm of FGM whereas any form of FGM is a violation of rights and any form of FGM is harmful it's so I mean they have a zero tolerance stance on this yeah let me bring in Catherine because as you just said any form of FGM is is a violation of rights it's you you see you're at the front line. You're seeing young girls on their deathbed, parents coming to you, asking for help. You know the impact, the long term impact it can have on women's lives. We talk about it a lot on Women's Hour, have done in the past and will continue to. What needs to be done to stamp it out?

I think what we need to do actually is involve the community themselves, especially the men. Because, you know, when you're talking about gender equity and equality, let me be honest, like in Kenya, we're quite at distance from what the US and the UK, the Western countries have managed to achieve. And we still have the belief that, you know, our men are the kings and the lions in that house. So if my man says that, you know, we're going to the left, as a woman have to go to the left. If he says we're going to the right, we're going to the right. So I just have to tell my children, hey, we need to go to the left, you know.

And as long as the men are not part of this conversation, then we still will go on around this circle and nothing will happen again. And number two, we need to change the narrative because initially when we started the campaigns against FGM, and I don't know if you guys can remember, but the last, the president, the former president, Uru Kenyatta, when he was having his ambition of, you know, we have to stamp out FGM by the end of 2022. The biggest idea he had was, you know, like we have to start having these conversations in our homes. And apart from that, we also have to stop this narrative that, you know, we are cutting the children. So because currently people, you know,

like the society has moved, like Christina is talking about, we're no longer discussing people, you know, like the society has moved, like, like Christina is talking about, we're no longer discussing about, you know, like some old woman looking like a witch cutting girls in the village. We're now discussing about medical practitioners doing these things. So people have moved from what we initially thought was FGM and how it was done to now the modernization bit of it. And that's where we have people cutting, you know, like I turn 18 years old. And because our culture still believes that, you know, as a girl, I cannot get married below 18 years. I have to get to 18 years and then I get married.

So once I'm 18, then I have to still undergo the cut. So nowadays they're no longer cutting girls, they're cutting women, you know, and because the initial discussion was all about FGM is targeting children. So we have to talk about the whole thing that FGM is not about children. It's about any female.

You know, so if we can change that narrative, then I believe and having to involve the men in this conversation and the community itself, then we'll have made a faster step as opposed to where we are. And Katha and Christina, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning on that.

Now, women conductors are in the limelight this week. You may have heard of the new film called Tar, which opens in cinemas today. Starring Cate Blanchett, it depicts the life of Lydia Tar, a fictional world-renowned composer, conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic. Lydia serves as a mentor and role model for young women hoping to become conductors, which is typically a male-dominated world. And yesterday, the first book by a female conductor in the UK, Alice Farnham, who has appeared on the Woman's Hour Music Power List,

was published called In Good Hands, The Making of a Modern Conductor. She's going to be on Front Row next Monday talking about that. Well, in fact, we've heard that Cate Blanchett hot-footed it from the premiere of the movie to Alice's book launch. Love the solidarity there. That's very good. So how many female principal conductors of British orchestras are there? The Royal Philharmonic Society kindly did some research, especially for us here at Women's Hour, and found there are, wait for it, two.

They also gave us some figures. Only 11.2% of conductors represented by UK artist managers are women. That's up, though, from 5.5% in 2017. So things are moving slowly. Well, last week we talked on Women's Hour about what it feels like to be the only woman in the room, and

listener Emma Warren got in touch to tell us she's the only woman on her choral conducting course at the Royal Academy. She joins me in the studio now and just this week Opera North has announced Josephine Corder is their latest female conductor trainee. She joins us from Leeds where she started an intensive nine-week scheme studying her master's at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester. Welcome to both of you. Emma I want to start by asking what made you want to become a conductor in the first place? Sure. So I actually didn't get into classical music through the traditional routes. Lots of people either have musical parents or sing as choristers or perhaps go to schools

where music has a really big, lots of provision for music. That wasn't really the case for me. My family aren't musical at all and I grew up in rural Herefordshire, went to my local state school but it happened that I had a great music teacher who really encouraged me and saw my musical potential and I loved singing in choirs and things and eventually when I was kind of year 11, form age I joined a choir outside of school which was the CBSO Youth Chorus City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra and while I was there Meiga Grajanita Tila was appointed as music director of the orchestra. Who's a woman. Exactly the first female in the orchestra's history I think to hold that position and I remember her coming into one

of our youth chorus rehearsals and talking to us a bit teaching us a Lithuanian folk song rehearsing with us and it was just it was like a light bulb moment I suddenly realized actually this is this is a job that someone like me could do. And so it just goes back to if you can if you see it you can believe it what about you Josephine what sparked your interest? Oh hi well I was lucky to have been immersed in music since I was very young. And I first conducted, the first thing I ever conducted was Die Fledermaus, the opera, which I put on when I was 16. And ever since I did that... That's very impressive, by the way. Can I just put that out there? 16 to conduct your first piece that's very good oh thank you

and ever since I did that um I just fell in love with conducting and it's been my goal ever since to achieve that so let's talk about being women in this field and Emma when you first became aware aware of what that you were the only woman on your course how did you feel um well I actually this year I am the only woman there There have previously been women on the course. But this year I am the only woman in the room. Yeah, it's something I'm always aware of. And I think sometimes it doesn't bother me that much. But sometimes I do feel, I think I put myself under this sort of pressure to be good and to do well and prove that.

Someone once joked that I was the token woman on the course. And I think I'm so desperate to prove that that's not the case, that women absolutely can be just as good conductors as men. Do you think there's a perception that you're not or that you are different? I think there's definitely a perception that you you're not or that you are different um I think there's definitely definitely a perception that that I'm different yeah um there are more female conductors these days and it's going in the right direction but yeah I've had you know comments and things that suggest that perhaps it's not not normal or like what what I've been told that my conducting is always just too girly um yeah which really really knocked my confidence for a while because what what is that criticizing that's criticizing

who I am as a person no matter how I conduct I'm not going to look like a man being girly isn't something negative exactly yeah lots and lots of things to unpack there Josephine what's your experience been? I've rarely been the only girl in the room myself. That's not something I've really ever felt as a strong presence. I feel like I've always been surrounded by quite a few female conductors. And yes, I think we all have different physiques, men and women. And it's unfortunate if you come across a teacher who doesn't take your issue the fact that very often um you know what would what's seen as authoritative in men is just seen as aggressive or threatening in women yeah i think um as a woman you have to find your own way of appearing to have strength and it's not going to be the same

necessarily as what a man achieves um and so we have to find our own way of appearing to be strong, especially if you're a petite woman, because that can sometimes appear harsh and aggressive. But there are ways to combat this. How do you do that? How do you combat it? I think really if you understand really what you want from the music and you really embody the music, this is when you can combat it and achieve it.

I think the goal as a conductor is just to embody the musical score as much as possible. And once you've thought about every single note and every single bar, then there is not much one can say. There will be people listening to this. There might be young girls listening to this, being very inspired by hearing the two of you talk about being your your work is training to become conductors so Emma what advice would you give to that person listening um I think I would say watch as much as you can

watch as many people as you can women and men go to concerts and if you're not getting opportunities that you'd like create your own opportunities speak to people put yourself out there find places to conduct people who will give you a chance and it might be harder it probably will be harder than for male colleagues to get to but put in the effort keep working and yeah it's so worth it josephine Yeah I'll just also say yeah just listen to as much music as you can create your own opportunities and yeah just be as innovative as possible. And very quickly if we want to see you because we want to see you conducting where can we see you conducting Josephine? Well next I'll be conducting in Paris with Ensemble Variance in April. And Emma at the

Royal Academy tonight. Yes, I'm conducting Britain's Ceremony of Carols with dancers in the theatre at the Royal Academy of Music tonight. How are you feeling? Very excited. Rehearsals are going well. Yeah, can't wait.

Excellent. Well, break a leg. Thank you. If that's what you say to conductors. It's been a real pleasure speaking to both of you. I look forward to watching your careers develop and you becoming world-famous maestros in the future um is the word maestro for a female conductor well that's that's a whole can of worms that's another debate for another day um that's it from me I want to

thank all of you for getting in touch I'm sorry I haven't managed to get around to all your all of you who've been in touch about your amazing dresses uh join me tomorrow for weekend woman's hour have a great rest of your weekend. My name is Jonathan Myerson, and two years ago we produced Nuremberg, a dramatised reconstruction of the trial of the major Nazi war criminals. Their crimes were indisputable, but one mystery remained. How did this group of unremarkable men come to rule all of Germany? Our new podcast, Nazis, the Road to Power, unravels this improbable story in 16 episodes,

starring Tom Mothersdale, Derek Jacoby, Alexander Vlahos, Toby Stevens, and Laura Donnelly. It remains a lesson for us all. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.