Woman's Hour - Female history in 101 objects, Big hair, Toilet training and schools, Primodos

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

A parliamentary committee has issued a new and scathing report about Primodos - a pregnancy test drug issued by doctors between the1950s and 1970s. The All Party Parliamentary Group on Hormone Pregnancy Tests says claims there is no proven link between Primodos and babies being born with malformations is “factually and morally wrong". The report claims evidence was “covered up” that it's possible to “piece together a case that could reveal one of the biggest medical frauds of the 20th century”. Around 1.5 million women in Britain were given hormone pregnancy tests which was 40 times the strength of an oral contraceptive pill. We hear from Hannah Bardell the SNP MP for Livingstone and a member of the APPG and Marie Lyon who gave birth to a daughter with limbs that were not fully formed - she had been prescribed Primodos. She has been campaigning for nearly 50 years.One in four children starting school in England and Wales are not toilet-trained, according to teachers who now spend a third of their day supporting pupils who are not school-ready, a report has found. That’s according to the early-years charity, Kindred2 who polled 1,000 primary school staff and 1,000 parents. Only 50% of parents think they are solely responsible for toilet-training their child, while one in five parents think children do not need to be toilet-trained before starting reception. What’s the reality in schools and whose responsibility is it? We hear from Steve Marsland, Headteacher, Russell Scott Primary school in Denton, Greater Manchester.Last week we got excited about big hair having a comeback after Miley Cyrus’ backcombed tresses at the Grammys made headlines. The larger-than-life hair-do was a fun change from the straight hair that has dominated fashion for decades. But it didn't last long - Paris Fashion Week is now in full swing and we’re back to the slicked back buns. So, will big hair ever truly come back and why did it fall out of fashion? Hair historian Rachael Gibson, and academic, and author of Don’t Touch My Hair, Emma Dabiri join Anita Rani to discuss big hair.In a new series, Woman’s Hour is starting frank and open conversations about how porn has shaped lives and relationships. Reporter Ena Miller has spoken to a woman who had to decide where to draw the line around her partner’s porn use, and we revisit an interview with Erika Lust, the adult filmmaker whose work focusses on female pleasure and ethical production.Anita takes a walk through female history looking at 101 objects with the writer Annabelle Hirsch. There are artefacts of women celebrated by history and of women unfairly forgotten by it, examples of female rebellion and of self-revelation. They delve into a cabinet of curiosities ranging from the bidet and the hatpin to radium-laced chocolate and Kim Kardashian’s ring.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Kirsty Starkey Studio Manager: Duncan Hannant

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Morning all, welcome to Friday's Woman's Hour. We're having a discussion about big hair on the programme today after Miley Cyrus sported an extraordinary barnet at the Grammys the other week. Her big hair energy was strong and she looked absolutely incredible. So this morning, to bring us all some much-needed Friday joy, I'd like you all to tell me about the time you felt absolutely incredible. Big hair or no big hair? When have you

stepped out in an outfit and somehow your back straightens up, you feel as though you've grown a few inches, your confidence levels are popping. You are feeling absolutely your own vibe. And you know that in that outfit, you are killing it. Hot to trot. When was it? What was the outfit? Was it your wedding day?

Your birthday? Someone else's party? Or just yesterday running for the bus? Because why keep amazing outfits for best? Maybe it's not even an entire outfit. Maybe it's when you put on that killer pair of boots or when you've had an incredible haircut or simply when you apply that devastating red lipstick you save for your most important meetings. Tell me all about it and feel free

to send me a pic too. Let's celebrate fabulous you this morning. I want to hear about the time you looked and felt sensational. You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can also contact me via our website if you want to email me. You can also get in touch with us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour or you can send me a WhatsApp or a voice note if you haven't done so already. Please save this number in your phone [phone]. Makes it so much easier when you want to get in touch with us. Also, were your children potty trained by the time they started school? One in five parents think their kids do not need to be toilet trained before starting reception. But is it the school's job to be teaching this?

I'll also be talking to Annabelle Hirsch about her new book and audiobook, Looking at the History of Women Through 101 Objects. And those of you who've been listening all this week will know we've started a series looking into porn. Well, that continues today with your thoughts on the subject. And of course, if you want to get in touch with anything, anything you hear on the programme and want to share your opinions about it, then the text number once again, 84844. But first, a parliamentary committee has issued a new and scathing report about Primidos, a pregnancy test drug issued by doctors between the 1950s and 1970s. The all-parliamentary group on hormone pregnancy tests says claims that there is no proven link between primidos and babies being born with birth defects is actually factually and morally wrong. The report claims evidence was covered up, that it's possible to piece together a case that could reveal one of

the biggest medical frauds of the 20th century. Around 1.5 million women in Britain were given hormone pregnancy tests, which was 40 times the strength of an oral contraceptive pill. The tests were withdrawn from the market in 1978. And families have argued for decades that it was responsible for birth defects, miscarriages and stillbirths. Well, to talk about this, I'm joined now by Marie Lyon, who gave birth to a daughter with limbs that were not fully formed. She's been prescribed Primodos. She's been campaigning for nearly 50 years. And Hannah Bardell, the SNP MP for Livingstone and a member of the APPG.

Hannah, I'm going to come to you first. This report uses, in fact, actually, I will come to Marie. I will come to you first. Marie, what are your thoughts on this? On the report itself or the length of time it's taken to actually get something like this out there. The report itself, I helped obviously with a lot of the content. There would be at least double that that could have been included in that report as evidence that primidose did actually cause the malformations and losses that our families suffered this is what we believe and it's what we've always believed but to see it there in

writing in detail with the new evidence with the focus on the existing evidence, which we believe is absolutely deliberately flawed. I'm just overjoyed that people are actually taking notice. Hannah, this report uses some pretty tough language about how previous experts' reports on the issue were inaccurate, doesn't it? I think we'll see. Oh, Hannah, are you there? Hannah, you're on mute.

If you can just take yourself off mute in the meantime whilst you're doing that. I'll come back to you, Marie. I mean, 50 years of campaigning. I mean, this must have taken a huge, huge toll on your life. It has. I think the last 12 years have probably been the most intense. Why is that? Because it's only during that time that we've managed to reach more and more women who actually were unaware that they'd been affected. So they basically

lived their lives thinking that they did something wrong when they were pregnant and this was the result. So one of the main focuses for me is to let women know they didn't do anything wrong. This was a non-regulated, invasive, unnecessary drug. It wasn't a therapeutic. It had no therapeutic value whatsoever. And basically they were conned. We were all conned. We were just told,

take these, one now, one tomorrow. And if you don't bleed, you're pregnant. Absolutely no advice whatsoever. And what was it being like then when other women, when you've been contacting these other women over the last 12 years, what's their reaction? What's the experience like when they finally talk to you? Yeah, the saddest thing is that um it's the disbelief and then of course the guilt comes on straight away why did i not question we all say the same thing um but my job really is to say to them you don't have anything to feel guilty about this could have happened to anybody uh the doctors made the decision the gps made the decision about who had the non-invasive tests and who had the invasive test uh so again this is completely out of the control of women

of that time and you've also got to remember it was a time of paternalism um and a time when men obviously thought the new best has that changed actually i don't know um but the point is that you know it was out of women's control and it's unforgivable really that they knew about it from at least 1958 and definitively from 1967 when dr gall issued a really you know inclusive report on exactly how it worked let's bring bring Hannah in now. Hannah, I think we can hear you. Hi there. The report uses some really tough language about the previous experts

and the inaccuracy of their language. What do you have to say on it? I mean, I think really to pay tribute to Mary and the work that she's done and also the Labour MP Yasmin Qureshi, who've been fighting on this for a very long time, as have I since I was elected in 2015. My constituent Wilma and Kirstie Nord came to me and they were impacted. And the reason that the report uses such tough language is because government money was used, you know, to bring these experts in and the expert working group to commission the work.

And it gave real hope to, you know know constituents of ours and women and their children who had been damaged by this drug and it was a complete whitewash and I remember Yasmin Qureshi and I going to the launch of the report and being locked out of the room and then us discovering that language had been changed it would appear that they had been leaned on by the government and you know it goes back to back to the initial failings, when Dr Inman, who was the principal medical officer, destroyed his findings, and the drug was given to women,

all the way up to modern day, and the number of times that these women have been let down repeatedly. Not only has harm been done to our citizens, but the government have failed to find redress is completely unforgivable. And you just have to wonder how many times we do this to people. Hillsborough, contaminated blood, the post office scandal.

It takes decades for folk just to get basic redress. And it feels like a pattern of behaviour. We do have a statement from the Department of Health and Social Care spokesperson said we remain hugely sympathetic to the families who believe that they or their children have suffered following the use of hormone pregnancy tests. It's right that the government is led by the scientific evidence and the government's position remains that after reviewing the available evidence, it does not support a casual association between the use of hormone pregnancy tests and adverse outcomes in pregnancy. We are not closing the door on those who believe they've been affected

and have committed to reviewing any new scientific evidence which may come to light. Hannah, what's your reaction to that? I mean, I'm sorry, if they really are that sympathetic, they would look at the evidence that is out there, because the truth is, and Mary will back this up, I'm sure, that they are not taking into consideration all of the available evidence and they are not willing to go back over the documents that have been uncovered in the German archives

and really take full consideration of that. And that was very clear in the expert working group that stuff was excluded. And that's why this report that has been done by the all-party group calls for a review into that evidence. It's really crucial that that happens. also it's it's about the future yeah it's also about being absolutely certain that women and in fact anybody are not going to be given drugs that are not properly tested and if they are and damage is done that that it will be dealt with swiftly and

appropriately and i'm sorry, unfortunately, not only do we not have confidence in the government that it's doing the right thing by the victims of Primidos, I have real concerns that there continue to be regulatory failures and that the system is not robust enough. Do you think they will consider looking at it again? Well, we are certainly going to continue to campaign for that and there is genuine cross-party support for this and pressure.

We're coming up for an election. Let's hope that whoever, you know, takes over the reins next will really listen and actually do something about it. But up until then, we are going to continue to fight very, very hard. And Marie, in the meantime, this has been your fight for 50 years. What's the impact been on yours and your daughter's lives um it's got well it's bound to have an impact obviously because there's a huge amount of work involved in in running a campaign for so long um but at the same time i've been very lucky i've met some wonderful people who live with the most difficult circumstances. They are so stoic.

They just continue on. They work. The children that can work do work, despite the many difficulties that they have with their health. So it's actually been quite a privilege, if I'm going to be absolutely honest, a great privilege um to try and do something for our families that will make the hopefully their life easier in the future because it's not been easy at all for the last 50 years well and we know that this is definitely a subject we will be talking about more on uh woman's hour thank you both for now for joining me this morning hannah bardell and maria lion now we are going to be talking about big hair. And lots of you have been getting in touch about big outfits.

This is off the back of singer Miley Cyrus. She was at the Grammys last week. She sported a big new hairdo. She's got a new song out today, Doctor, Work It Out. And in the music video for it, she's sticking with a big hairstyle that she showed off at the Grammys last week. Well, we got excited about the big hair and it having a comeback. Her huge mane was hot off the heels of Marc Jacobs' models

wearing massive wigs during New York Fashion Week. Think Diana Ross and the Supremes, but much bigger. Could it be the start of a new trend? These larger-than-life hairdos were a fun change from the sleek, straight hair that has dominated fashion for decades, but it didn't last long. Paris Fashion Week is now in full swing and slick, backed buns dominate the runways. It seems only Miley is the

big hair cheerleader. So will big hair ever truly make a comeback and why did it fall out of fashion? And as we know the big hair debate can have a very different meaning depending on your ethnicity. Well joining me to talk about this are hair historian Rachel Gibson and academic and author of Don't Touch My Hair, Emma DeBerry. Morning, Emma and Rachel. Welcome to Woman's Hour. First of all, let's get a reaction on Miley's hair. Rachel, after winning her first Grammy, she wrote on Instagram, I'd like to personally thank my hair.

I love that. I'm a big fan of big hair. I love Miley. You know, she's a southern girl. Dolly Parton is literally her godmother. So it feels inevitable that she would feel a connection to Big Hair. Emma? Oh Emma you're on mute sorry it's all right don't worry. Thankfully I can remember what I said yeah conceptually conceptually, I'm down. Like I love the voluminous. I love the glam voluminousness. I love the glamour. I actually think in that instance, I wasn't loving the aesthetic on Wiley. But I like the I like the concept. I like the idea.

All right. Just wasn't to your taste. Yeah. Well, what tells us about the concept and the idea? What is it about Big Hair? Why is it got us talking about it emma oh sorry i wasn't sure which one of us um yeah i guess because there's been some very high profile incidents um of big hair miley for instance as you said mark jacobs um i also think with the um mob wife aesthetic and this kind of like pendulum swinging very far in the opposite direction from the very clean kind of like natural look that was that was dominating before and this kind of very opulent like high octane glamour that also often has this kind of like voluminous, like curled hair and stuff. So I think there's definitely been, there's definitely been like lots of big hair moments, but in terms of it dominating as like a singular trend, I don't think that's necessarily what's happening, but it's definitely making a comeback to an extent.

Have you just been at Paris Fashion Week as well, or are you still there? I'm back. Right. What's the word on the fashion street then about this so yeah i saw kind of like slicked slicked hair slicked ponytails and then also an aesthetic that um you know originally kind of comes from black fashion with um like baby hairs like very gelled baby hairs um was a look that was going on as well, which I love. So Pat, go and stock up on gel this weekend then. Colton gel and a toothbrush. And a toothbrush, excellent. Rachel, hair size, let's talk about how it's grown and shrunk over the centuries.

What is it about big hair that people either love or loathe? I think big hair really lets you literally take up space wherever you are, whether that's in a room where you want more of a presence or whether that's on TV or on stage. You know, we have people like Amy Winehouse, whose look was obviously very, she was inspired by, we say Ronnie Spector, those kind of 60s girl group looks. And, you know, these women kind of use their hair as armor almost,

you know, they're people who are very diminutive women, actually like literally quite small women, but have these very big hairstyles which allow them to take up a bit more space, but also kind of give you this really otherworldly presence. You know, it's such unreal hair. It's it almost is quite cartoony. But it takes effort. So it's not for everyone. No, this is true. There's a lot of effort I think kind of uh what Emma said as well you know we've had this uh all these social media trends of the kind of clean girl aesthetic these very minimal looks and this is not a minimal look this is obviously a look which takes a lot of time to put together um I kind of love that more purposefully glamorous over-the-top look as a

big hair person myself well well you're natural tell us about your hair. I can see beautiful red, deep red curls. So you're gifted with naturally, or is that styled? I don't know. Well, the colour isn't real, but the hair is. I mean, it's real because it exists. Yes.

I think I was one of those many people who during lockdown just kind of embraced the curls. I mean, I've always liked having big hair, but working in beauty, I guess I tried lots of different things. But in lockdown, I was like, no, let's embrace the curls. And they've stayed ever since. Is there a link between feminism and big hair, Emma? Is there a link between feminism and big hair? So big hair is actually like quite generic, you know, so there can be height and volume.

But like, what's the texture? You know, so people like Ronnie Spector, the Supremes. Yes, they have these huge, ornate, glamorous wigs that are brilliant, like that are beautiful and amazing. And I've worn my hair in similar styles on multiple occasions. But it is actually like with those wigs, it's a texture that is mimicking like European textured hair. So it's still straight hair that is like backcombed and hairsprayed to be big and to stand upright. And I think that's quite, I mean, that is quite different

to how my hair naturally grows from its head is like up from, it's from my head head is up and out. But with a very tightly coiled Afro texture. And so if I have my hair big in that in its kind of in its natural presentation versus in a way where I've where I've had an intervention with the texture and I've made it straight and texture. Those two styles are read very, very differently. So one is read often, one is read as, you know, an expression of perhaps racial pride or feminism, you know, some sort of, it's read as some sort of political statement.

Whereas if it's straight, it's interpreted in a very different way, irrespective of the size. Like during the 60s and 70s in the Black Power movement? Yes, if it's in an Afro texture. And as you just mentioned, it can be a political statement for black women. Michelle Obama, as I'm sure you're aware, has talked about how her hairstyles were chosen not to overshadow her husband and that she didn't wear her hair in braids

because American people needed to first get used to having a black family in the White House. Yeah, because if she had worn her hair in braids or worn any style that would be read as a black aesthetic style, that would be interpreted by certain demographics in society, perhaps as, you know, threatening in some way. So it's been quite interesting in her kind of political life after the presidency, after Obama's presidency, we've seen her rocking like a lot more like um black hairstyles like a lot more kind of

braided hair braided hairstyles in a way that when um Barack was the president her hair was always relaxed and straight and kind of you know quite conservative looking um uh Rachel M Germaine Greer wrote in the female unit back in the 70s I'm sick of waiting my head with a dead mane unable to move my neck freely, terrified of rain, of wind, of dancing too vigorously in case I sweat into my lacquered curls. You said you loved big hair, but the upkeep of big hair can be very time consuming. Yeah, absolutely. And when we kind of look back in history at one of the kind of key big hair moments, which is that kind of pre-revolutionary France, Marie Antoinette,

all those big hairstyles, you know, theyirstyles that well they first of all they kind of divided society because they were very much hairstyles that could only be worn by people that weren't working already doing very much but also you know those are hairstyles you people had to like sit on the floors of their carriages because they didn't literally fit in the door their houses they you know they didn't fit through doorways without having to kind of make themselves quite uncomfortable. So, yeah, there's this idea that when you're taking those very extreme hairstyles, it's kind of suffering for fashion in the original sense of it

because you're literally in pain and they're uncomfortable and they kind of render you not able to do very much. Amy Winehouse once said in an interview, the more insecure I feel, the bigger my hair has to be. Rachel? Yeah, I think that's the idea again of kind of taking up space and making yourself kind of feel stronger and kind of more untouchable. And I think the Amy Winehouse hair is so interesting because we have so many different interpretations of big hair, as Emma said. And, you know, that's big hair that is quite intimidating it's not sort of

designed to run your hands through or anything you know it's kind of a sense it's a it's it's armor it's allowing her to take up that space and kind of feel secure. And in you and in recent years Emma there's been a shift towards women showing their big natural curly hair hasn't there? Yeah there there definitely has been there was you know, the phenomenon of the natural hair movement where kind of like en masse, lots of black women started rejecting, you know, relaxing and straightening our hair and wearing our natural texture. It's interesting, though, in terms of I'm seeing a decline of that now. Again, it's things sometimes they're a trend I wouldn't say the natural hair movement was a trend it was more enduring than that but I think it was reflective

of a particular cultural moment in time which has shifted again and we are seeing the return of a lot more kind of straighter styles or styles that have textures, you know, that are kind of more or more European. Why do you think that is? I think it's a cultural shift. And I also think that even despite the reach of the natural hair movement, there is a deeply entrenched and pervasive idea, belief that straight hair, long, straight hair is the of it, but it's so deeply ent um historically of men like the macaronis for instance who were these very like wealthy um englishmen who'd gone on the grand tour in the 18th century they came back from italy you know with this um they developed this affectation for macaroni but also for this huge these and thus their name but also also these huge, ornate, enormous wigs that they would top off with a tiny hat.

There's also incidents, when I was researching Don't Touch My Hair, what was really fascinating to me was these escaped slave notices from the 1700s, where there were very detailed descriptions of escaped slaves' hairstyles, and many of them were men. And in that historical period, lots of them had quite ornate hairstyles and many of them were men and in that historical period lots of them had quite ornate hairstyles and there's very interesting kind of speculation as to why and how that was the case but yeah we can tell a lot about what's going on culturally in a moment from how people are wearing their hair yeah and we only have to look back to the 80s and sort of soft rock uh to see that men definitely had big hair a lot of hairspray was used in the 80s.

Thank you both for talking to me about this. Lots of people are getting in touch on social. Hair, love my big Medusa hair. It's a power statement. The fact that you called it Medusa is powerful as well. The 80s were my heyday. The bigger, the better. Michelle in Nottingham says,

I hated the fashion for straightened hair. I looked as if I'd been stuck under a tap for too long now i have a nice big blowout at the hairdresser or fry it myself upside down to get volume i figure if it's good enough for anna winter then it's good enough for me absolutely and emma in bermans he says the only people who want big hair is people without big hair i have lots of follicles and each strand is like rope when it's it's good it's amazing, but make swimming, showering and steamy weather a proper challenge. I've embraced the grey and post-menopause now have a weird two-tiered mane

with curls underneath and flat on top. Most days, it's up in a bun. Emma, this sounds incredible. Please send me a picture. I need to see that. Emma Debeary and Rachel, thank you so much for speaking to me about that. Lots of you are getting in touch with various things we're talking about.

And the next thing we're going to be talking about is potty training. One in four children starting school in England and Wales are not toilet trained, according to teachers, who now spend a third of their day supporting pupils who are not school ready, a report has found. That's according to the early years charity Kindred Squared, who polled 1,000 primary school staff and 1,000 parents. Only 50% of parents think they are solely responsible for toilet training their children, while one in five parents think children do not need to be toilet trained before starting reception. So what's the reality in schools and whose responsibility is it? Well, I'm joined by Steve Marsland, head teacher at Russell Scott Primary

School in Denton in Greater Manchester. Steve, welcome to Woman's Hour. What do you make of those figures? One in four not toilet trained. Well, they're accurate. Very accurate. And it's only, you know, it's only the tip of the iceberg, really, because, you you know we've picked out about potty training but the development of children is much wider than just you know school readiness in terms of potty training there are lots of other things that children come to school underdeveloped in you know there are too many children who are actually behind before they even start school um we we have virtually 75 percent of our children are coming in below what you would call a national expectation so you know it's it's eye-watering and since covid it's got worse what do you think the reasons are what's happening well i think it's it's multifaceted

isn't it you know you've got i know it know it's got worse since COVID, but historically, I can talk in that way, I've been the head teacher here for 25 years. So I've got that historical perspective where in the past, schools didn't allow children into school or into nursery unless they were toilet trained so it focused the mind somewhat i suppose um but the the the issue the issue in schools is it takes up a disproportionate amount of time um socializing getting children um to be able to communicate even to use a knife and fork, as well as toilet training. So all that pressure comes down onto the teaching staff who are already under pressure in terms of making sure that children attain and progress well. And so what is the situation then? How does it work within a school in terms of staffing if a teacher has to attend to a child who

needs to be aided and helped going to the toilet? Well when you look at staffing ratios in the past it would be you'd have a teacher and a TA and it'd be something like one to one to 15 now we've got one to eight because it takes two to change a child. You know, there's the safeguarding issues, also impact on staffing ratio where it disturbs the rest of the class. And often children don't say anything. So they could be having story and it will be other children who notice that there's something not very nice uh in their vicinity yeah and then it disturbs that element of learning teaching assistants have to come into the uh come into the frame take them and get them changed

and some children are you know need a bath and need to be showered and changed so it is quite it's difficult well the research by kindred squared found that teachers having to spend two and a half hours per day over a third of the school day supporting children in class yeah that that that's that's correct but it's things like you know that they'll be they'll know, they'll be taken to actually understand what sharing looks like. So lots of children have been isolated. And as I said before, it's got worse since COVID. Children and mums and dads have been isolated. The extended family usually, you know, clicks into place when you've got a new grandchild or a you

know a new cousin you've got the extended family who comes around the health visitors weren't able to go so the developmental stages of a child where health visitors would flag up that children are not quite where they should be preschool that's Preschool, that's not been in place. But, you know, there's no blame game. But the most important people in an early child's life is their mums and dads. So how much do you criticise the parents? I mean, parents might say, you know, we're busy, we're working. Where is the time?

Yeah, well, it's my expectation, isn't it, about accountability. Too many children are coming into school well below where they should be and well behind, even before they hit the school, hit the playground. Mums and dads are the most important teachers of children preschool you know and and the old adage goes about it takes a village to bring up a child there are too many mums and dads isolated from an understanding about that development stage and about what the expectation should be in schools We do and always have done help children and get them ready for school.

So how do you deal with the parents? How do you deal with the parents in that situation? Again, you've got to talk to mums and dads and try and help them. Our website is full and they're always pointed in that direction before they even come to school um about even down to reading story at bedtime or talking to them as they're going around the supermarkets and and going and going to play groups and things like that too many too many

parents unfortunately you see on mobile phones not talking to the children or children in restaurants with an ipad we've had children coming into school with american accents you know preschool because they've been sat in front of an ipad um and they're trying to swipe books so there are all sorts of different things coming into that um into this into this remit about who should be looking after children. We had the government, Kevin Collins, he was appointed as the COVID czar to help with the catch-up pre-lockdown. And he said it's going to cost 15 billion. He was offered 1.4 billion and he resigned saying it falls far short so you've and then you've got the sure start program which was

fantastic for schools in our area we've got over 40 percent of our of our um of our school population on preschool meals we've got multiple social deprivations. So Sure Start was an absolute gem where mums and dads could go and be supported, which took the place of the village, if you like, and the extended family, where mums and dads have been isolated. And so they don't actually understand what the expectations are and what the accountability is at home and at school and as a community in general.

We're here to help, of course we are, but there's certain things that mums and dads have got to get into place to make sure that their children are prepared for school. We've got lots of people getting in touch with their thoughts on this, and I'm going to read some of those out in a minute. But as I've got you here, Steve, I've got to ask it's Secondary School Offers Day today, a stressful day for any Year 6 pupils or their parents. Reports say a record number of students won't get their first choice, one in five.

Are you expecting to hear from some worried families today? Yes, of course we are. And, you know, there are some children who are elated and some children with sad faces. You know, they've been thinking about this for months and months and months and it's always on children's minds because, you know, they're going to be isolated themselves, they think, because their mates may be going to one school

and they've not got their choice. And so they think they're never going to make another friend. There are all sorts of pressures on young children, but on the system in general, you know, it's getting worse where children are not getting their first choices. Steve, thank you very much for taking the time to speak to me today. That's Steve Marsland, headteacher for the Russell Scott Primary School in Denton in Greater Manchester.

Lots of you getting in touch about this. Potty training, I've got criticised for waiting until my son was three to potty train, but he had a better cognitive ability to understand what was being asked of him. Took two weeks, there's no excuse, end of, says Kerry. I had boys in the 1970s, says

Sandra. Playgroups started at two years, 10 months and children could not go if they were not potty trained. That focused the mind. It's a parent's job to get a child potty trained. Nobody else's. Joan says my younger daughter wasn't interested in getting out of nappies. When she was three, I told her she wouldn't be able to go to nursery school if she was still in nappies. That was the motivation she needed and then very quickly became a thing of the past. It also saves money. And another one here, I was shocked to hear parents

think schools should teach potty training. I'm a 65-year-old grandmother. I think modern disposable nappies work too well. No uncomfortable, heavy, wet-toweling nappies that my children had. 84844 is the number to text. I've got some really exciting news for you here. Well, it's very, I think it's exciting.

On Friday the 22nd of March, Women's Hour, we are leaving the studio. We are travelling north. We are heading to Doncaster. Yes, Donny, we're coming for you. A very special edition and we're calling it Who Wants to Be a Female Entrepreneur? If you have a question or advice to share

about any aspect of setting up a business, we would love to hear from you. Get in touch and we will put a selection to our panel of experts. Yes, we are coming to Doncaster. 84844 is the number to text. You can also email us by going to our website. Any of your thoughts about wanting to become a female entrepreneur. We will have a very special panel lined up.

And like I said, we'll be putting your questions to them. Now, yesterday we started a new series here on Woman's Hour all about porn. We want to have a frank, open conversation about porn and spotlight personal stories and experiences about how it's impacted real life relationships. How has porn changed you? Maybe it's changed how you feel about yourself or how do you feel about your partner? Has it helped you explore your own identity and sexuality? Or do you feel like it's had a negative impact on you and on your relationship? Well, over the coming days and weeks, we'll be hearing from you, our listeners, about how you feel porn has shaped your lives. Yesterday, we heard Joanna, not her real name, telling Enna Miller about how she felt her partner's porn use impacted their sex life and their relationship. I thought we had a great sex life, fun and pleasurable. And

he had talked about porn and said, oh, let's watch some together. And he got this DVD and I can't remember the storyline. It was some like woman next door type storyline. It was quite banal compared to the hardcore pornography that's out there now. But yeah, we watched it and it didn't really do anything for me. I guess he really wanted me to like it. He wanted to have that as part of his sex life with his partner to spice it up. So then when did it change? Did he change or did you change?

The first time I found out he was watching pornography, I had to use his phone to reply to somebody and I put a kiss. And the letter I put in just came up with this name of a porn site. Then we had a conversation about what are you watching? When are you watching? How much are you watching? And I guess he felt really ambushed and invaded and defensive and saying he didn't think it was a problem, that everybody did it. Then I just got so paranoid and so suspicious and I wanted to know the truth. There was this whole thing going on that I'd been oblivious to that really worried me.

And when I looked at his phone and I saw the extent of it it was so often it was like multiple times a week even a day it made me wonder whether he was looking at younger girls slash women because those women are fertile and there's something biological there or if it's just those women are vulnerable. I'm wondering how him watching porn crossed over to your intimacy. I think the impact of porn is just you can't take it out of the sex life we had. I think it's so inextricably linked because porn had been part of all of his adult life, longer than sex had, more than sex had. That was Joannaanna talking to enna miller there and you can listen to the full interview from yesterday's program on bbc sounds next week we'll

be continuing the conversation about porn here on women's hour we're going to hear from women who love it women who hate it and we want to hear from you so many of you have been getting in touch with us about this um someone here who didn't give their name said my husband's porn addiction has destroyed our sex life he became desensitized to normal intercourse. His expectations of me to perform turned me off sex. Whatever I was willing to do, he wanted to push it further. He promised to give it up and didn't and destroyed my trust. We're still together, but haven't had sex for over 18 months. I'm shaking writing this. Just the thought of porn triggers anxiety. Another anonymous message here saying, Last year I discovered my 40-year-old partner of 11 years has a porn and sex addiction.

Since then, we've both been in therapy and had a lot of frank conversations. And it seems he's had this problem from his earliest sexual experiences. Since a teenager, he's used porn obsessively to deal with depression as a hit of dopamine. That habit stuck and has become his way of dealing with it and managing difficult times in his life it's hugely impacted our own sex life and the joy of sex means something entirely different to him and another message here saying um is spicy fiction regarded as poor lady porn i've heard it called i love this book genre and read it a lot i'm a woman in my 60s and it fuels my sex life. The thought of sex is often in my head as a result of reading about it. And therefore, I have more of it than I did 30 years ago. And another one here saying, I think that porn is used not to prescribe what we enjoy, but to inform us of what we might enjoy. Of course, there are hugely problematic areas. And as an intersectional feminist, I cannot watch a lot of it.

But I think that to suggest that porn equals damaging to women is to underestimate women's sexual palate and our ability to experience pleasure in a variety of ways. And Anne Philpott from The Pleasure Project says, the organisation I founded, The Pleasure Project, to try and reform sex education to make it more effective and pleasure inclusive

also works with porn filmmakers to make their films include safer sex and condoms. We've also worked with ethical feminist explicit media filmmakers. Well, Erica Lust is a filmmaker who makes porn,

what some even call feminist porn. She creates adult films to focus on female pleasure, diversity and ethical production. And I spoke to Erika last year about why she started making what many may call ethical porn. I felt that when I was watching porn, my body did get excited. It reacted to the images I did see.

But I didn't like them. And most of my female friends, they felt the same way as I did, that something wasn't really working out for them. So I kind of took the matter into my own hands and I felt, let's see if I can make a porn film, but with my values, from my point of view, where I put the women in the centre of the story. We see them develop their desire, their fantasies, and we see them having sex in a way where they are not just tools to male sexuality, but they are actually pleasing themselves in an authentic way. So the porn that you're creating, how does it differ? Everything is really different. It's about the process, how you take care of the worker standards of everybody working to make this film happen. From crew members, we have a bill of rights where we explain to our performers the process.

And it's about conversations with them beforehand. So they are aware about anything that they are going to do. I want to create an environment that is as safe as possible so people feel that they can speak up if something is going wrong for them. And then I check in with them after a shooting. And that doesn't happen elsewhere? I mean, it's becoming better in the industry, I think. I think that independent porn producers have had an impact

on the kind of mainstream industry and how people are shooting films today. But what I see in the industry is still that even if production is made in a proper way, many times, you know, when we get into marketing and distribution, then it becomes unethical in the way that they market the films, in the way that they classify people, they fetishize people, they tokenize people, you know, people feel that they stop having agency over their image and their representation. And we're specifically talking about the representation of women in the porn industry.

Is it because the majority is because it's made by men for men? I mean, it's definitely still, you know, it's a male industry still today, even if more women are in it. But it's not only that it's done by men, but it's really what kind of men if you start looking at it, because it's a group of men that most of them are cis, white, hetero, middle aged, and they have a particular vision of sexuality. And that vision is, you know, boobs and ass and cars and cigars. And it's kind of the sexuality that's in there, you know, but this is not very different from our society in general. You know, the way I see it, porn is really a mirror of the values we have in our society. So I think that what we need as women is getting into this industry, is starting to tell our stories from our point of view.

We need to start telling the world what we find sexy, what we want to see, what turns us on. You have customers that have to come to you and pay for it. It's behind a paid wall. That's also a big part of what I call ethical porn. I think that we not only have to protect the children, but we also have to protect the workers in this industry. There are people here who need to be paid correctly. And you do that by paying for your porn. You do that by investigating the sites. When you go porn surfing online, you need to see if there's an about page. Can you see if you align with the values of these companies? Because most companies in the porn world, they are not transparent. They are just, you know, a post box somewhere in the

world, but without real people, without real names. I want to feel proud of the work we are doing. I want to be able to show people how we do our films. Fascinating stuff there, isn't there? Erica Luss speaking to us on Woman's Hour last year. So what do you think? Are you convinced by ethical porn? We want to hear from you. Our new series is all about having an honest and open conversation about porn. So get in touch with us in the usual way. Contact us anonymously if you like. You can email through the website, text 84844 or WhatsApp [phone]. Now, which item sums up women through history?

In her book, the writer Annabel Hirsch takes a walk through female history looking at 101 objects. There are artefacts of women celebrated by history and of women unfairly forgotten by it, examples of female rebellion and of self-revelation. She delves into a cabinet of curiosities ranging from the bidet and the hat pin

to radium-laced chocolate and Kim Kardashian's ring. The audiobook is being launched at an event on International Women's Day, Friday 8th March at Shoreditch Town Hall with Women of the World. Each object is described by a reader, an incredible list of readers. Here's Helena Bonham Carter. In the year 1900, a terrible fear was circulating in European and American cities. Men walked the streets with trembling knees. On public transport, instead of sitting with their legs spread wide, as they do today, they cowered meekly in their seats and secretly prayed for one thing alone, that they might be spared an encounter with a

woman wearing a large hat. Because while nowadays we might look at those chapeau with their liberal sprinkling of feathers, bows and artificial flowers and see nothing but a very unbecoming trend, which lent the wearer all the allure of an agitated peacock. Back then, people saw something else in them, namely the concealment of a dangerous weapon, the hat pin. Annabel Hirsch, welcome to the programme. We heard Helena Bonham Carter reading the essay about the hat pin there. Tell us why you included that object. So the hat pin is actually one of my favorites, I have to say, because it's very curious. I mean, it's a very banal object, you might think, right? I mean, if we see it in a flea market or in an antique shop, we wouldn't think that this would tell us anything about female history. And in fact, it does.

And it tells a lot about, you know, around 1900. So women since a few years were present more and more in the public sphere, which was kind of new, right? So for the men, it seems that as they were in their sphere or what they perceived as their sphere, they thought, if they're here, we can also touch them, right? And so the women started to use their headpins as a weapon. So they defended themselves from the men that were a bit,

well, getting too close to them with these hatpins. And I found it very, very fun in a way, also very smart. Even in women's magazines, actually, they said you could use your umbrella or your hatpin. So you had both choices. It makes you smile and it is funny and it's clever, but it also makes you reflect on where we are now and how women are still having to think of ways of defending themselves. Absolutely. So this is something that I found super interesting, surprising and also depressing. So it's fun and depressing at the same time, actually, because I didn't know that through this thing that women used those hat pins and that it became a thing, you know, and in the newspapers, they talked about it because it was very surprising to people that women

would use those fashion objects in a way as a weapon. And so it became a discussion, how safe are the streets for women? Actually, I didn't know that, that around 1900, they had this same discussions that we have today, actually. They found a few ideas for that. So there were a few laws somewhere in the US where if you would call a woman chicken, you had to pay a fee or something. But so yeah, it is a bit depressing to see that actually we didn't move very far from this. But this one, your book of 101 Objects is really incredibly empowering.

And this list of women that you've got together to manage to read out each of the essays, full disclosure, I also have the honour of being one of those women. So thank you for that.

It's deeply personal. You say it wasn't curated by a historian, but by a woman who grew up between France and Germany at the end of the 20th century, a woman who loves women, their objects and their stories.

So what was your criteria? How did you whittle it down to this list? Yes. So as you say, it's it's very personal. It's very subjective. Then, obviously, I also wanted to, well, to talk about very important moments of history. So I tried to it's I say, probably very eclectic. So I had a mix of things that are important to me of, for example, women that I really wanted to talk about as the French writer Colette. But then I also wanted to give a sense of, you know, the evolution, because I think we have this idea that female history is kind of linear, that it goes from submission to emancipation.

And actually I realized, I didn't know that so much, I have to admit, that it has actually always been in waves. So I really wanted to have objects that would show this and then also objects that kind of, you know, show the whole palette of life, that talk about many spheres like science like art like sexuality as well let's pick up on sexuality straight away as we have just been talking about porn as well on the program because there are items of pleasure a 16th century glass dildo

yes i really loved it this one um because um it's very interesting to see I mean I use some objects also to talk in a wider sense you know it's not just this object but the relationship that society had to female pleasure and to female sexuality was extremely strange and also what people told women actually how I mean we just heard Erika Lust it's very interesting what she says, what women want. So it's very interesting to see that, for example, until kind of until the 19th century, women were said to be extremely voracious, extremely sex hungry in a way, right? And in the 19th century, they somehow invented that women hate sex, that they are always

tired, that they always have a migraine or something. And so this object is, yeah, an excuse in a way to talk about, we have another dildo actually that is a bit further on from the 1990s. So yeah, female sexuality is a very big topic, obviously. And there are personal objects in there lipstick is in there you mentioned your grandmother's lipstick what does that tell us about the past yes and so my grandmother who was very a french a very accurate french woman so she would never leave the house without her lipstick even just to take the post out of her own home. And so I had this idea that the lipstick is something, you know, that is part of the, let's say, the feminine mystique or this eternal feminine.

So something that would be, well, not very emancipatory in a way. And then I realized that actually in the 1910, 1920s, women who would wear red lipstick, it would be kind of a signal to say to the man, what you think about us and your gaze. So the male gaze that we talk about so much. We don't care about this anymore because women with red lips would have been seen as prostitutes at that time and you had in 1912 you had this march of the suffragette in New York where they would all wear lipstick um to yeah to kind of send a signal also that you know the mouth which is kind of the place where the men are afraid about yeah um we are going to be loud we are going to ask for stuff

now and own it i mean there's 101 objects there and each one um you know really really makes you think about women and our place in history and what we've been told or what we haven't been told and in fact you you the final object of the book the 101st is is a is is hair it's a short plait. Tell us why you wanted to include that. Yeah, it's interesting that you talked about hair before also. Well, hair has always been a big topic in a way and also a way to punish women, for example, to shave their heads, as they did in France after the war. And so this one, I included it because when it's actually for the English translation that we did it

because when we decided to do the translation it was the moment when the revolution let's say in Iran started so it was right after Mazami's death and I had the feeling

that this is really a moment that you, in a way, I have to close the book on this topic because, yeah, I felt like it's a real change. It's something that is extremely powerful, extremely impressive. I was so moved and so impressed by all those women. And also something that is going way beyond, obviously, Iran, right? So this is why this hair that those women cut off at that moment as a signal of rebellion and also freedom, to me felt like it should be the end.

Also because it's an open end. We will see what comes up. What happens next. Absolutely. And as you said, it was for the English version, which that was happening as you were publishing it here. Annabelle Hirsch, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. Like I said, the audiobook is being launched at an event

on International Women's Day at Shoreditch Town Hall with Women of the World. And the list of women reading is delicious to listen to. Thank you, Annabelle. So many of you getting in touch with various things we've talked about this morning. When you feel fabulous. Another message here says, I dressed to kill to go to a ZZ Top concert in my short leather skirt, skimpy top, long blonde hair at the age of 48 with a young partner. Got stopped by the police for speeding in my MG.

Hood down. I got let off. The police love ZZ Top too. And another feeling fabulous. My feeling fabulous moment was wearing sparkly orange hair glitter, over-the-top makeup and a 70s disco outfit

as a Niles Rodger tribute to Studio 54 event at the South Bank a few years ago at the ripe old age of 62. That sounds amazing. And I went, someone else says, I went to a fab ABBA party and wore my mum's

original Aussie Clark yellow dress from the 60s. Lucky you that you're able to do that. I felt amazing. Got so many lovely comments and flattery and felt a connection to my younger mother. It was a wonderful night. Thank you for your company. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Amol Rajan here. And it's Nick Robinson. And we want to tell you about the Today podcast from BBC Radio 4. Yes, this is where we go deeper into the sort of journalism that you hear on today, exploring one big story with more space for insight and context. We hear from a key voice each week, a leader in their field, be they a spy chief,

a historian, a judge, a politician, all with something unique to say. And we make sure they've got the time and space to say it. The WhatsApps show the character of the men who were running our country at that point. Trump is probably going to beat Joe Biden because he is a force of nature. If the next scan says nothing's working, I might buzz off to Zurich. We give you our take as well and lift the lid just a little bit on how the Today program actually works. That is the Today podcast. Listen now on BBC Sounds and subscribe. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.