Woman's Hour - Female wildlife rangers; Miscarriage cards; Life after prison in Iran; Boric acid; Nude photos online

Episode Date: June 22, 2021

Wednesday will be the first ever World Female Ranger Day, celebrating the work of female rangers around the world who do an important but ultimately dangerous job protecting wildlife from poachers. The emphasis this year is on the work of female rangers in Africa where there are approximately 3,500 female rangers in teams in 18 countries all over the continent working to protect endangered wildlife. One of those women is Collet Ngobeni of the all-female team The Black Mambas in South Africa. Emma also speaks to Holly Budge, the founder of the charity How Many Elephants.Miscarriage is a unique type of grief - occurring in one in four pregnancies - and yet it still often goes unacknowledged. Women usually wait 12 weeks before announcing a pregnancy so if they experience miscarriage early on it can be an extremely distressing and lonely experience. For women who do choose to share the news and then discover they have miscarried, it means having to inform family and friends who may find it difficult to know the right thing to say. National Director Ruth Bender Atik talks about a new series of cards launched by The Miscarriage Association to specifically acknowledge the sadness of miscarriage and give people an opportunity to acknowledge it in a sensitive way. She is joined by Gemma Rundell who designed empathy cards that she wished were available after she had three miscarriages.Under-18s who want nude pictures or videos of themselves removed from the internet can now report the images through an online tool - being billed as a world first. The new service comes from the Internet Watch Foundation and Childline and aims to help children who have been groomed, or whose partners have posted photos of them online without their consent. In recent years, the Foundation says it has noticed more and more of these types of images that have been created by children themselves. In the first three months of this year, 38,000 self-generated images were reported. Emma speaks to Susie Hargreaves, the head of the Internet Watch Foundation.Boric acid is a white powder that can do everything from getting stains out of clothes and stopping your fridge smelling, to killing ants and cockroaches. But if you look for boric acid on social media, there's another use - as a vaginal pessary to supposedly treat thrush-like infections and bacterial vaginosis. Bacterial vaginosis is common, isn't considered a sexually transmitted infection, and isn't typically serious. But Dr Jen Gunter, a Canadian-American gynaecologist and author of the Vagina Bible says she's seen an increase in the use of boric acid vaginal pessaries among her patients over the past few years, paralleling what she calls an ‘explosion’ of new over the counter boric acid products and heavy marketing from celebrities, influencers, naturopaths, and functional medicine providers.Ana Diamond spent 200 days in prison in solitary confinement at the age of 19, after travelling from home in the UK to visit her grandmother in Iran. She was held in a tiny windowless cell in Evin prison, Tehran, in the same block as the Iranian British charity worker Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. The guards interrogated and taunted her saying the only place she would ever graduate from was Evin prison. But this weekend she has been celebrating having scored a first from Kings College and receiving a scholarship to study for a postgraduate degree at Oxford University. Emma talks to Ana about moving forward after such a traumatic and life changing experience.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. A range of cards have gone on sale. Miscarriage cards, pregnancy loss cards, or as some call them, empathy cards, in a bid to help those who don't know what to say or do but want to do something and hopefully help those going through the miscarriage. I'm going to be talking to the director of the Miscarriage Association and also a creator of these cards, a woman who had three

miscarriages of her own. But what do you make of the idea of cards to mark this moment? Would you ever send one to a friend or want to receive one? That's one of our discussions today, and I would really welcome your take on it. Would it have provided a form of validation, recognition, perhaps provided a way for those in your life to do something? Or could you not imagine putting them up on the windowsill or the mantelpiece? Maybe it might have made you or someone in your life feel worse, not better. We've already put this message out on social media at BBC Women's Hour. Many of you taking opportunity to get in touch. Please continue to do so. You can also text Women's Hour on 84844 or email us via our website.

A message here from Kez says, no, no, horrible to think that they could be visible in shops. I should also say, of course, a lot of this is going on online. Another one here, absolutely not, from Sarah. I speak from the experience of having had five miscarriages and Julie chiming in to say, no, it's private. It's something I shared only with my very close friends, not even my whole family. I wanted hug and empathy, not a hallmark moment.

But one here from Melissa says, seeing such cards on the shelves would be a trigger for me, but also some sort of acknowledgement at the time of each baby loss would have been very comforting I guess cards could provide the words that so many don't know how to say we don't need specific cards on this that you've had a miscarriage or referred to like that but I would appreciate reads this message from Katie thoughtful cards from close family sending love after my miscarriage. And Louise says, not a card, a bag left on the doorstep with chocolate and a magazine. So, you know, you're in someone's thoughts without overstepping.

I actually think this applies to a lot of situations. Keep your messages coming in. 84844 is the number you need to text or as you're already doing on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour. Also on today's programme, I'll be joined by a member of the all-female ranger team, the Black Mambas, in South Africa, to hear about the important but dangerous job of protecting wildlife from poachers. And from one of Iran's most notorious prisons

to winning a scholarship to study at Oxford University. Don't miss Anna Diamond's remarkable story. But first, to a world first. Under-18s who want nude pictures or videos of themselves removed from the internet can now report the images through an online tool. This follows a disturbing Ofsted report in which England's school inspectors found

boys are distributing explicit images of girls with each other via social media like a collection game. Of course, yesterday, if you were with us, you will have heard me talk to the chief inspector of Ofsted, Amanda Spielman, about this. You can catch up with that interview and what she had to say on BBC Sounds. But this new service comes from the Internet Watch Foundation and Childline and helps to aim children who have been groomed or whose partners have posted photos of them online. In recent years, the foundation says it's noticed more and more of these types of images that have been created by children themselves. In the first three months of this year, for instance, 38,000

self-generated images were reported. To find out more how it will work, I'm joined now by Susie Hargreaves, who's the head of the Internet Watch Foundation. Good morning. Good morning, Emma. How widespread is this? Unfortunately, it's really widespread and it's been growing year on year. In fact, you know, so far this year, we've removed over 100,000 web pages and two thirds of them actually had self-generated content on them. And we've seen an increase year on year so you know 117 increase this year and self-generated images can cover anything from um you know young people consensually sharing selfies through to uh young people being groomed and coerced into sharing sexual images online so it covers a very wide spectrum but report remove which we've launched today with the NSPCC on the Childline website, is a world first. Because for the first time, children can self-refer images if they know there are images out there of them.

And then we will work and do our very best to get them removed from the Internet. How are you going to be able to do that? Because we have reported on this programme, certainly about websites that, you know, the government can't even control at the moment. Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's a tough job, but the IWF has been going for over 25 years and we have a unique relationship with the industry. And we also have the ability to proactively search the Internet for those images. So for the young people concerned, they need to know that if they report via the Childline website, that their details are kept confidential, that the IWF just gets the image, we don't get any details about that child. We then assess it. And if it's a child sexual abuse image, we then, what we do is we hash it. So we apply a digital fingerprint to that image. And then we

use that digital fingerprint to go out. And then we use that digital fingerprint to go out and proactively search for duplicates ourselves. But also the internet industry will also search for duplicates on their own platforms. And the really important thing to note here is that these images are flagged as report remove images. So actually, the child themselves is not criminalized in the process. So it's absolutely essential that young people don't feel really scared that if they report these images, which they're already worried about, that they're then going to end up, you know, in the hands of having the police knock down their door.

But you're confident that you can get them down through this process? I think you'd apply the same to any images of child sexual abuse on the internet. We can never say 100% we can get them removed because they will be repost, you know, it is a war of attrition, you know, and the IWF is not about to give up while there's one more image of that child out there on the internet. So, you know, what we can do is give you hope. So we can say, in the past, you might have thought, well, I just, I'm never going to get these images down. But what we can say is, actually, do you know what, there's organisations like us, like the NSPCC, we're going to fight and fight until we get rid of all those images. So you don't have to live with this terrible fear all your life. I recognise this has just been launched. Is it today that it's going live

or when's it going live? Well, it's live at the moment. We've been running it for a few months. It's actually taken years to develop because we had to resolve all the legal reporting loops. So we worked very closely with law enforcement, with the Home Office, with our US partners, and we've been testing it. But we now want to encourage young people to come forward without fear of being judged. And just to know that we exist, this project has been developed to help them.

And, you know, it is work in progress and it will get better and better. But right now it's a world first where you can actually know that if you give us your image we will deal with it sensitively and we will work on your behalf. So that's the point now that you're you're encouraging young people to get in touch if they need to get an image removed do you know having been tested it do you know what your success rate is in terms of removal? Well Well, what we do know is we found matches, and that's what's really important. So we worked on the pilot with Facebook,

who took the pilot images, and we know that there have been some matches. So that's really important. And we will never be able to say absolutely, because we don't know how many have been shared. But the other thing to share is that actually the really important thing about hashing technology is that we're able to hash images which might not yet have been shared.

So even if people are worried and think there might be an image out there, we can hash it and then we can stop it being uploaded in the first place. So that's a really positive thing too. I was going to say, I know that you want to stress, and you have done, that children themselves will not get in trouble in any way if they come forward. But what will happen to those who either generated the image, stole the image, or perhaps, as you say, created an image that could be seen as child abuse?

What will the criminal side of this be if not to the child who's reported it? Well, it is a very complex process and of course you know the police would always say that there is a caveat and any time where there's an issue where a child might need to be safeguarded you know that there will be intervention but you know what we what we are doing with this project is is tagging it as a known image a known victim so um you know where known victims are, we know they were under 18, the intention is not to criminalise them. You know, if other people are sharing these images,

then quite rightly, we're going to go after them and the police are going to go after them. So, you know, it's really important that the message we get out here is that, you know, child sexual abuse is such a major issue now. If you think, you know, we removed last year over 155,000 web pages. That's millions and millions of images. The last thing we want to do is go after children and criminalise them

because for some reason, maybe they shared it because they did it because it was fun, or maybe they were groomed and blackmailed and coerced into sharing it. And actually, it's in nobody's interest to criminalise these children. Or maybe it's just a male friend. I mean, not just, but it's not any of those things. It's as we were hearing about in schools. It's boys that they know, if we're talking about girls,

and that's been shared and they don't wish for it to be. They don't necessarily know if they want those boys to get in trouble. Yeah, I mean, you know, my experience is that, you know, having worked in this field now for 10 years is that actually pretty, there are exceptions, but, you know, really we take a common sense approach to this. And the police also have a thing called Outcome 21, which means that young people are not criminalised in certain circumstances. And actually what we are dealing with and we are collectively sharing this information is a problem that's so huge that it's actually

not good use of resources and it's certainly not good for young people who maybe done something silly and shared it, even if it wasn't them in the image. And I think common sense is starting to prevail on this because it's nobody's interest to criminalise young people and you know so so you know there will always be ones that slip through through the gaps unfortunately but that's the overall intention. Are the majority of the images can you say this are they in the ones that you've seen are they of girls? So the images are coming

through quite slowly in terms of the report remove in terms of self-generated images that we've been seeing through our proactive program yes they are they are 99 percent girls and 90 percent of them are girls aged 11 to 13 so you know those those are the self-generated images we're finding on child sexual abuse websites where children have been captured on webcams in their bedrooms and you know clearly children who are 11 to 13 are not emotionally or physically mature enough to know what's happening to them. So, you know, they cannot be blamed for this. Now, in Report Remove, we're tending to see older children. Self-refer images tend to be, you know, selfies, nudes that they've taken and perhaps shared. And, you know, so and they are a mix of boys and girls.

So both though, both sets of images, when you talk about self-generated and report-removed, are both eligible to be put forward for this, to be removed? Yeah, sure. I mean, the reality is that, because I described the scale of the problem from the selfies, is that actually people you know the ones that are groomed and tricked and coerced and blackmailed into sharing uh images and videos

won't tend to be self-referred on these because they are unfortunately taken by perpetrators who have a sort of very nasty reason for doing it and they're sharing them the report remove is really about giving hope to young people, the young people themselves. And I was going to say on that, just very briefly, would you encourage those people to perhaps do this with support, with parental support? Some may be, especially at the younger end, quite daunted to do this. Yeah, well, when you go onto the report remove website, you're asked to say what age you are. And of course, there are, because it's a project that's been developed with NSPCC and Childline,

there is support there for children who are reporting through to Childline and safeguarding and support on every level. One of the things that's been important for Report Remove is to provide a facility where if children are worried about sharing it with parents or other adults, that they have got a safe place to report,

which is how Childline sort of works. But they obviously have some very clear safeguarding procedures in place and processes around that. So, you know, if you are a child who can help and report to an adult, you know, we have a project on at the moment where we're encouraging girls to block report and tell somebody so actually you know do talk to the adults around you and if you are an adult and you are concerned that perhaps your child or child you know has shared an image you know do not blame them provide them with support and you know be there for them because it you know it's not their fault. Susie Hargreaves thank you for for talking about this world first, as you say to us today, from the Internet Watch Foundation.

And we'll make details of the Report Remove protest available on the Women's Hour website if you've got any questions about that as well. Thank you for joining us. Now, so many getting in touch already around the idea of cards to mark miscarriages because a miscarriage does prompt a unique type of grief because it's often unacknowledged beyond the woman and her partner or her nearest and dearest. This is despite one in four pregnancies ending in miscarriage.

Many women still wait the customary 12 weeks before announcing a pregnancy, so if they do experience a miscarriage early on, it can be a very lonely experience, not to mention incredibly distressing. For women who do choose to share the news and then discover they have miscarried, it means having to inform family and friends, who then may find it difficult to know what to say, if anything at all. Now, some potential help on hand in the form of cards, backed by the Miscarriage Association,

the national director of which, Ruth Bendatic, joins me now, as does Gemma Rundell, who's also designed empathy cards she wished were available after her three miscarriages. Ruth, if I start with you, good morning. Good morning. Tell us about the idea of these cards and how you describe them. We have one card at the moment that is going to be on sale in a national retailer, which is a first as far as we know in the UK.

And the idea behind it is that so many people want to say something empathetic, something that's going to make someone feel better, but they don't know what to say. Sometimes they say things that they hope will be of comfort, but turn out perhaps not to be. For example, well, never mind, you're young, you can always try again, or at least it wasn't a full term baby, or something similar. They mean to make people feel better, but it doesn't necessarily feel that way to the recipient. So quite often people say nothing at all because they're frightened of causing more upset. What the cards do is what in many ways I think women would like their family and friends to do anyway, which is to give them a call or send them a text and just say, I'm really sorry for your news. But the cards, this particular card does it for you. So it has very simple wording on it,

which is, you know, which is, there is no good card for this. I'm so sorry for the loss of your baby. That's what it actually says. Is that on the inside or on the outside? That's on the outside of the card. And the inside is blank so that people can still write something inside. I was just going to say, just so people can imagine it, I'm aware it's radio. Is there an image with those words? The words are in the handwriting of a woman who's been through loss herself. And underneath them, there is the tiniest little blue heart. Blue is the colour, as it were, of the brand of the Miscarriage Association.

So it's very, very simple. And this is going on sale in a retailer? Yeah, it's only online at the moment, but it will be in shops. And that's an important step, too, because it's another way of raising awareness of the impact that miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy or molar pregnancy can have yes well let me bring in Gemma to this because uh Gemma as I say we're getting a lot of messages from women who've been in in your position uh some some having also as you have multiple miscarriages I understand you had three and I wonder what you would have wanted

at the time because I know you've reflected on this yeah um I mean it's obviously a very emotional subject and it is really personal for me um I suffered three three miscarriages in the first trimester um and I I actually didn't tell people of the pregnancies until after they ended. Again, it was within the first 12 weeks. And what I find was when I had my first loss, I did have kind of friends and family that were rallied around me to an extent and offered me the empathy. And then the second and third, people just didn't know what to say because obviously things weren't really improving for me. And I just felt really lonely and when people don't know what to say they say nothing and silence can be as I said very very isolating so I noticed that there wasn't really anything

in the market that I would want to be sent so I went and created a range of cards to help people in my situation and um it was interesting because I saw one of the tweets was about you know dropping off some chocolate in a bag on a doorstep and actually I I had a care package of hug in a box which had exactly that had some tissues and chocolate tea bags worn socks and some sandwich towels. And sorry, I still get, it's a few years ago, but I still get very emotional about talking about it. And quite a few of them have been ordered. I mean, my card's been available for a few years, not in a national retailer,

but in stocks in some local shops in Edinburgh and online. And I've sent some to some friends that went through losses, but also I've sent some to friends that have went through losses but also I've sent some to friends that have had other difficult periods in their lives as well it it doesn't necessarily have to always come back to miscarriage you can it's just having a talk an open dialogue about loss and real human emotion you know I think any any card that offers that support and reaches out to somebody that is in need of some help is very, very worthwhile. What did you choose to put on yours,

on the cards that you've created, just to give us an idea? I just chose some phrases I felt resonated with me. There was actually a Winston Churchill one, which was, if you're going through hell, keep going. One from Finding Nemo, which was just keep swimming. You know, it's really simple phrases that, you know, aren't patronising. They're not new platitudes. It's just a kind of a tap on your shoulder saying, you know, I'm here, I'm thinking of you.

So if I may, I was just going to say, and then on the inside, did they make any reference specifically to miscarriage or how would you know? Because I think that's what some of the discussion has been about the idea that there's grief and how you deal with grief um more generally but also there is a very specific nature to miscarriage that it can be so personal and so private um i mean on mine i've got the logo of the miscarriage association 25 percent of profits go towards the miscarriage association and when i I ever discuss them on the sticker on the car, there's a charity sticker saying where the money goes.

So that's how you would know it's specifically linked potentially to that. Yes. Yeah. And when I kind of market them as such, it always links to the miscarriage association, but they can have other uses as well it's for me um opening up the dialogue and taking away the taboo from miscarriage is the importance of this card whether people find it suitable for for them or not um as i said it's a very very personal

personal choice um but it's great that it is available whether you choose to purchase one or not. No, and I think also what we just heard from Ruth, and I'll go back to Ruth in just a moment, is what's being said if you don't know what to say. And some terrible things can be said, not out of bad feeling, but because people just don't know what to say or they want to cheer you up or they want to do the right thing. There's a message that's just come in here and I wondered if I could ask you perhaps Gemma to reflect on some of that from your own perspective but Lulu in Glasgow

says the worst ever thing said to me when I miscarried a very wanted baby at four months was a comment by a relative who said well think of all the fun you'll have for trying for another one. I was so heartbroken my whole life fell apart after my miscarriage i understand the difficulty for people to know what to say so cards with sentiments already written which are appropriate i think can be helpful what do you want to say to lulu i i fully agree i've i think some people try and fill the silence with something upbeat and they will probably feel quite uncomfortable about putting their foot in it. And I and I think that it just helps cushion that clumsiness. I mean, it's difficult because people do have the best will when they say these things.

They just don't know. And I think sometimes you haven't been through it yourself. It's just very alien. You don't know how raw the emotion is and it's a very difficult situation for for anybody involved in the dynamic of somebody going through this so anything that helps make it just that bit easier to discuss or comfort is is is really welcome I mean I've had some clanners over the years as well go on what have you had can you share i would say the most hurtful one is when i was fortunate enough to welcome a baby daughter i had a relative say oh do you think you just couldn't carry boys then and i just think oh my goodness they didn't say that they just don't they just don't realize and

it's what did you say i think i just glossed over it and i'll give them a cup of tea i mean there's still a lot of ignorance um surrounding miscarriage baby loss because there's still a taboo and there's not enough open discussions about it and it's very personal but i would say that if you do want to um these these cards help facilitate that discussion if if somebody wants to open up to their friends about it that's really what it is it's just helping break the silence um and as i said my reach was called lost for words and it's just helping providing um friends and family with the words to offer comfort i want to go back to i know you've had two children um and i want to go

back to that and some of the issues perhaps after miscarriage with that. But Ruth, coming back to you, I think what's so striking on our messages coming in around this, and as you will know, so many women have gone through this, is a lot of people saying, it's private, sorry, I don't want to talk about this, I don't want to do this. Ruth, do you experience that working at the Miscarriage Association that, you know, not everybody will welcome this card on the shelf? Absolutely, 100%. Miscarriage can be a very private thing. There are a lot of people who don't say they're pregnant, you know, until they're, you know, maybe much further on in the pregnancy and a lot of people who absolutely don't want to share the fact that they've had a loss um and and that's their right you know the card is available like Gemma's cards are available for people who want to help who want to say the

right thing and I hope that they will be received um with some measure of feeling that there is compassion out there, that people are thinking about them. But they're not right for everyone. They aren't right for everyone. And I think that the sad truth is when you've been through miscarriage, whether you've had one or many losses, it can stay with you for a very long time and all sorts of things can trip you up. So if you're walking through a shop and you see a car that has the word miscarriage or something very similar on it, you may just, you may cry. You're not expecting it. You're not prepared emotionally. Although actually seeing that word in public life outside of a hospital setting or a medical setting i'm just thinking about the fact if i've ever seen it

if i've you know apart from in a script here at womans are or you know when when potentially reading about people's experiences of course online but i'm thinking about in public life you just wouldn't see it would you ruth you're absolutely right and I remember many years ago we had an exhibition stall in I think it was some kind of show in Leeds you know agricultural show or something or other and they had a tent for charities and there was a couple that walked past they clocked our logo and the woman immediately turned to her partner and just wept really and it made me feel so so sad of course yes i think yeah just just to see it when you're not expecting it in in some sort of context like that i mean perhaps within a card situation it wouldn't be quite as shocking because we are used to seeing grief or sympathy cards, certainly, maybe. But yeah, again, the image of the word. Ruth, to say to people who are listening, who are close to someone who's been through this, and perhaps don't necessarily want to send a card, but do want to say something, what should they say? Because we're hearing what they shouldn't say. Any advice? Oh, I think the less you say,

the better. I think if you just say something like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to hear your news, and then listen. If they want to talk at all, of course. Gemma, just to come back to the point I was starting to make with you, you do have two children. And the other side of this, if you get to that point, the I know the extraordinary anxiety you can then have after having miscarriages to have your pregnancies what should be or is billed as a very joyous thing then also takes on a different form doesn't it yeah absolutely I I was terrified for you know the two successful pregnancies that I had I was terrified for, you know, the two successful pregnancies that I had. I was just not expecting to end up with a healthy baby.

And it just, the first miscarriage really just took away that kind of the magic and joy that I had expected in my pregnancy up to the kind of the 12 weeks when my baby sadly died. And yeah, I just, I just never got that that excitement and joy back but I am as I said really fortunate now to to be a mummy to two happy healthy children but I still kind of feel like I'm a parent to five um because there was three that I never got do you you do feel like that oh gosh yeah gosh, yeah. I mean, I think that... I think that's important for people to hear, you know, as well. Again, I mean, it's a very... I know that not everybody feels this way,

and it is very, very personal, but certainly when Mother's Day comes round, I remember the babies that I never got to hold. And, yeah, as I said, I'm fortunate now. Yes. I do have my children, but it's a really difficult time to go through. And whether you want to keep that really just to your husband and your close friends and family, that's absolutely your personal choice. But we now have something in the mainstream shops, which if you do that little extra bit of support and you're thinking of a friend, you don't know what to say, there are words available to help.

To help. Well, I think you saying that extra part as well will also touch a lot of people today. You don't quite know who's listening. That's always the power of radio. And thank you for feeling like you could say that and talking to us today. Gemma Rundell there and Ruth Bender-Attick, the National Director of the Miscarriage Association. Just a couple of your messages to share. As someone who had miscarriages and an ectopic pregnancy,

I do think, this is from Katie, more needs to be done to allow women and men to talk about it. But not a card, as it would make me feel worse. Seeing these cards

would trigger me as I struggle daily, years after the event, especially as I won't become a mother now. Katie, thank you for that message. Jill says, I've had a miscarriage.

I would have hated getting cards like this. Have we lost the capacity to either ring or simply express sympathy or send a note? Do we need words pre-written by Hallmark? Another money-making niche opportunity. Well, of course, in these instances, we're talking about cards coming from the Miscarriage Association and also an independent creator there. Thoughtful messages, never a card and no emojis. No name on that message.

Another one from Marigold. I've had four miscarriages and yes, absolutely a card would have been a comfort. I don't understand why there is such secrecy. I've always been very open about my experience to invite support in and break down the stigma in talking about it. And Deborah says a note saying you're in someone's thoughts is kind. Offering coffee or chocolate or a listening ear with a gift card or buy dinner.

Great. As I say, from Deborah on email. A note saying you'll get over it or hoping you recover quickly. Or pointing out that at least you have other children. Not so much. After experiencing this, the people who did the first thing were a comfort. Those who avoided me because they didn't know what to say. Made me feel even more isolated. Or perhaps if you are trying to

support somebody, hopefully this has been helpful. And maybe if you've been through this or going through this, you're also feeling something, hearing from others' experiences. Do keep those messages coming in, please. Many on this, the idea of miscarriage cards and certainly one going to be hitting the shelves of retailers. How would that make you feel? 84844 is the number you need to text or on social media we're at BBC Women's Hour. Now in the first ever World Female Ranger Day which is happening tomorrow celebrating the work of female rangers around the world who do an important but ultimately dangerous job protecting wildlife from poachers. That's what's happening tomorrow to market.

The emphasis this year is on the work of female rangers in Africa, where there are approximately 3,500 female rangers and teams in 18 countries all over the continent working to protect endangered wildlife. One of those women joins us now, I'm very happy to say, Colette Ngobeni, who is part of the all-female team the black mambas in south africa and we're also joined by holly budge who's the founder of the charity how many elephants and of world ranger day colette welcome to woman's hour could you tell me first of all about the work that you do with the black mambas i'm a supervisor and administrator of Black Mambas Anti-Coaching Unit, which was started in 2013.

In 2013, I was just an ordinary mamba. So we are in Greater Kruger National Park, where we stay at Balule Oliphant West. And then we patrol 9,000 hectares at Balule and even have the centre again, which is called Khriki, where they patrol 3,000 hectares. And in our place where we patrol, it's a home of big five, example like elephant and rhinos, which we protect. And how do you protect them, you and your fellow female rangers? What do you have on you and how do you make sure that what you're trying to protect stays safe?

We are the eyes and the ears of the reserve because we are unarmed. So we are there to protect those animals. So we are always visible in the fence where we patrol. So then people, when they drive around, they will see us that we are there. So we are always visible inside the reserve. And you're not armed, did you say? We are unarmed. Right. So how do you actually do that?

How do you stop animals from getting killed? We have our smartphone, which we have app inside it. And then we go out with our handcuffs and keep us free. So it's just sending the message out there to the people that you are not allowed to come near our reserve because we are there and then another thing the poachers they don't want to be seen because they're there to do the quick jobs and then they can go out so when they see us they won't come inside the reserve because they already seen us inside the reserve so handcuffs and a pepper spray and your smartphone this is what stands between you and a potential poacher

and an elephant's life for instance yes and we even have our armed guard response if something happened then we managed to call the armed guard response to come and help us okay and and why why is it an all-female team the black members why is it all the women together uh i will say because of love and natural love that we have inside our house our hearts and then again we are mothers so we are too much secretive than men because a lot of reserves the people who give information to the poachers is the people working inside the reserves. And that is men. So as women, we don't have that mind of giving out the information to the poachers. We always want to keep the information outside us. And then what we do is to educate other people of conservation, because a lot of people, they don't understand anything about conservation.

So, I mean, what you're starting to talk about there as opposed to just the patrolling side of your job is actually having really difficult conversations with people about and educating people about why what you're doing is important. That's part of this job and education is very important, I imagine. That's true.

And those conversations. Let's bring in Holly at this point. Holly, it's fascinating to get this insight from Colette. And is that part of the motivation to actually recognise the work of female rangers? Absolutely, Emma. So, I mean, I was so inspired when I first heard about the work of the Black Mambas in 2014, when I was studying for a master's in sustainable design. And I was also so horrified by the poaching statistics for the African elephants, that of 96 elephants being poached a day, 35,000 a year,

that I decided to use my background in design to come up with a fresh awareness raising campaign to really raise awareness of the sheer scale of the African elephant crisis but also to highlight the work of female rangers and that's been the inspiration very much behind World Female Ranger Day. Because it is that range of skills and i'll go back to collect shortly but the education side of it but also the patrolling absolutely yeah so i mean they're all there's lots of different models of female ranger teams out there you've got the akashinga rangers in zimbabwe who are fully armed with ak-47s they come face to face with the poachers as colette's mentioned these guys have pepper spray and handcuffs

and they're more like the eyes and ears on the ground. The idea is that they don't come face-to-face with the poachers. An armed response team will come in, you know, if needed. So both, you know, making tremendous impact, but consciously very, very different models. There'll be some people listening to this thinking, why have you got to mark the work of women? Why have you got to specifically mark out what female rangers are doing as opposed to what all rangers are doing, which is ultimately an important and dangerous role? Yeah, I think that's a great question. And we have absolutely nothing against men or male rangers. We think they're

doing a fantastic work out there, but I think it's really important for us, it's really important in my charity, How Many Elephants, to be specific. We have an expression, specific is terrific. And we feel that if we really hone in and really pinpoint our focus, we can have really measurable impact and make change. So absolutely nothing against men, but we're just very focused on African elephants in How Many Elephants and female rangers in World Female Ranger Day. And we're a short team, so we are small, so we can't spread ourselves too thin. So we just really hone in on something specific. What are you hoping, though, with this first day, this first Female Ranger Day, to achieve? Yeah, so this is all about raising awareness.

It's the first time that female rangers around the world have been brought together on a platform to share their stories and best practice. It's also about raising vital funds for these women. So they've set up their own pages on our worldfemalerangerday.org and the money raised on each of their pages will go directly to that female ranger team. But, you know, with the pandemic especially and the current restrictions on travel worldwide, it's having a devastating knock on effect to conservation organisations and communities. So we're really trying to do our bit to highlight the work they're doing and get much needed funds to them. Colette, to come back to you. Back on the road. Oh, so forgive me. And of course, you know, people wanting to travel to these places

and make sure that they are conserved and stay the way that they are. Colette, did you always want to be a ranger? Was that something you wanted to do from being a little girl, Colette? The love for nature and wildlife in general, that motivated me to be one of the rangers. That's what got you going. And what about the women around you? Is there a good sense of kind of sisterhood in your group and closeness? Yes, that's positive. We are more supportive to each other in everything.

Yeah, it sounds an incredible role. And the pandemic, I mean, how has the last 15 months been in terms of your work and we didn't have game drives inside the reserve. So we were more out to the reserve. We needed more eyes to patrol inside the reserve because the pandemic affected us a lot because we didn't have people coming outside from the country to come here. So that was very bad. Well, thank you for talking to us today. What are you off to do now?

I mean, I'm sitting here in a studio in the BBC. Where are you going next? We are going to patrol but our next patrol will start at 6 o'clock at night for night patrol because we have morning patrol, we have afternoon patrol and then we have night patrol. So you're off onto that one and trying to protect

what sort of animals will you be trying to protect this evening? Paint us a picture. Okay, I will say all the animals but because poachers, they're more focused on rhinos and elephants. So that's what we are doing. We protect the whole animals, but more specific rhinos and elephants. Yeah, slightly puts my sort of line of work into perspective that I'm sat here in a studio and you're off to protect rhinos and elephants. So I'm not going to stand in your way any longer. you very much for talking to us there colette who's part of the black members in south africa

and holly budge who's from the charity founder of the charity how many elephants and of this world female ranger day which is tomorrow so thank you very much for those insights and yeah as i say definitely definitely puts things into perspective. Now, boric acid is a white powder that can do everything from getting stains out of clothes and stopping your fridge smelling to killing ants and cockroaches. But if you look for boric acid on social media, there's another use as a vaginal pessary. You know, for instance, there's comments like this. Keep your pH balanced. Hashtag healthy vagina. Well, bacterial vaginosis is common common it isn't considered a sexually transmitted infection and isn't typically serious but dr jen gunter an american gynecologist and author of the vagina bible says she's seen an increase

in the use of boric acid vaginal pesteries among her patients over the past few years paralleling what she calls an explosion of new over-the-counter boric acid products and heavy marketing from celebrities, influencers, naturopaths and functional medicine providers. She's written about the use of these pessaries in her book, The Vagina Bible, but more recently she's been drawing attention to her concerns again and I asked her why. The number of times I've been tagged in posts on Instagram about it has been increasing and since the last time I tackled it, it's become

more than a cottage industry. There's companies that make other products that have moved into this market. And I hear so many people using it who shouldn't be. It has to be marketing because I've been in the field of vulvovaginal health for 25 years. Boric acid has been around much longer than I have. And I've only seen this explosion in use in the office in the last several years, right? So I have patients every day telling me they've tried boric acid. And 10 years ago, I had no one saying that. What are people using it for in relation to the vagina? Well, they're using it because they think it can, and I put this in quotation marks, balance the vaginal pH, which it can't do. And in fact, likely will damage the good bacteria and have a negative effect on

the pH. And they're also using it to treat vaginal infections, which haven't been diagnosed often or maybe out of frustration for symptoms that they aren't getting help with. So there's a variety of reasons. And are there any truths around if it could help in terms of there are gynecologists, I understand, who say it is OK to use it under medical supervision if there are recurring infections? That desperation perhaps you're talking of. So for yeast infections where the yeast is not sensitive to the standard medications, typically called azole resistant yeast. So a yeast that is

just resistant to the normal medications or for recurrent bacterial vaginosis. And it's part of a multi-step regimen. We don't use the boric acid alone. We use it in sequence with a special regimen of antibiotics. And the damage that this could cause if you aren't using them in those circumstances? Yeah, so it could very likely damage your good bacteria. It will very likely damage the cells in the vagina, damage the mucus. I mean, we use boric acid in these other circumstances that I've described because we, you know, there aren't any other options. And so, you know, you choose what you have to have, but you have to remember that just

even cleaning the vagina inside with water can harm the ecosystem. So, you know, boric acid is caustic and it's, you know, we see a lot of irritant reactions from it. So it's important for people to understand that, that it should not be used except in very specific circumstances. And for you now, do you think this is something that's just going to continue? Do you think people just, it's a trend in a way, and if you like, people like you are not being listened to? Yeah, I mean, I think these influencers have great influence, unfortunately. I mean, there's a couple of influencers from Canada who have over 600,000 followers and they made an, I think it's

over 600,000 followers. They made an awful video on Instagram to promote a brand of boric acid. And they said it was for your stinky vag. I mean, they're influencers and they're telling women that their vaginas stink and they should use boric acid. I mean, that's disgusting. And again, to be clear, just in case somebody listening has thought about it for that particular purpose, can boric acid change the smell? Well, it will damage your good bacteria and that might change how you smell, but that's not a positive thing. So if you feel that you have an odor that's abnormal for you, you should seek medical care. That's really what you should do. And you should get a diagnosis. What was it designed for?

I think it was originally an antiseptic, but also an insecticide. And there's lots of medications that are used for other things. You can describe chemotherapy and all kinds of awful drugs, right? Those are awful, horrible drugs, but you know what? dying for cancer is a lot worse. So, you know, you have to use the treatment that you have to use. yourself with your book that we may have moved more towards an era where people didn't feel they needed to to do such things modify themselves realize that there's great variety in our bodies and how we are and move away from those feelings of shame do you actually think we're going in the other direction yeah i do i see certainly in my office many many many more people concerned about odor concerned about how they look like i said i've been doing this for 25 years. And 25 years ago, I might have had one woman a year who was convinced there was something wrong with her when there wasn't. And now I see many, many more people with concerns, and they hear things online, they read things online, they're made to feel badly about their bodies.

And I really think a large part of it is the products that are pushed because, you know, for the products to sell, you have to feel bad about yourself, right? Dr. Jen Gunter, the Canadian, I believe I said American, gynecologist and author of the Vagina Bible. We did ask the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency what the situation specifically with boric acid in the UK is, and they said this, there are no vaginal tablets, capsules or pessaries containing boric

acid which are licensed medicines in the UK. Clinical guidelines recommend the use of antibiotics to treat bacterial vaginosis. We therefore recommend people do not use unlicensed products to treat conditions such as bacterial vaginosis and anyone who's worried they may have it should make a routine appointment with their doctor. Now, my next guest spent 200 days in prison in solitary confinement at the age of 19 after travelling from home in the UK to visit her grandmother in Iran. Anna Diamond was held in a tiny windowless cell in Evin Prison in Tehran in the same block as the Iranian-British charity worker Nazanin Sakari Ratcliffe.

The guards interrogated and taunted her, saying the only place she'd ever graduate from was ever in prison. But this weekend, she's been celebrating, having scored a first from King's College and bagging a scholarship to study for a postgraduate degree at Oxford University. Anna Diamond, good morning. Hi, good morning, Emma. I've got to say congratulations, first of all, on what it must have been to have come back and done all of this. Thank you so much. It is a very surreal feeling, definitely. This all started when you were, as I say, going to Iran to see your grandma in 2014? Absolutely, yes. So I decided to take that flight to Iran, that very fateful flight. And my intention was to go to Iran for two weeks to see my grandmother, who was in her,

I think she turned 95 the year I went to see her. So quite, you know, had lived a good life, but she was ailing and ill and so I really wanted to see her. And how did this I mean I know it's a long story but in terms of just putting it for our listeners into context how did this this nightmare begin for you? I actually don't know how it began if I'm completely honest because for me, now that I look back retrospectively, it kind of happened in building blocks, kind of brick by brick. There wasn't one event that kind of changed everything. It was mostly, I think the Iranian Revolutionary Guard started being suspicious of me once they recognized that I had obtained my Iranian passport from the Iranian embassy in London. And I don't know why, for some odd reason, they couldn't find

me in the population registry when I first landed in Iran. And so they started asking me how had I received this passport and what was the story behind it. And so right at the landing, they took my passport, including my European passport and my laptop. And so they embarked on this never ending investigation to find who I was and why I looked Iranian, but I couldn't speak Persian. And this, I mean, it's been reported, you know, on your computer, for instance, which was taken, as you say, there were photos of you at young conservative events with William Hague, Theresa May, David Cameron. And on this supposed evidence, you were charged with spying. And then it continued from there on in.

And I mentioned this incredible situation, awful situation. These words don't do it justice of spending 200 days in prison, in solitary confinement from such a young age. How can you describe that? How can I describe that? Well, to put it very simply, I would say it was quite life-changing. I think you don't really go through that experience remaining the same person you were when you first walked in. But, you know, the whole experience of solitary confinement is built around trying to break you and strip you away of your individuality and your character and your reality and the solitary confinement in itself the purpose of it is to

detach you from your memories so much so that the guards the interrogators can manipulate you into believing that you have done certain things which you haven't. And so they want to gain a false confession out of you or they would like to enter into an agreement with you, which you wouldn't in your healthy state agree to. For example, a collaboration of some sort, becoming a double agent, as they which was funny because I mean to be a double agent you have to be an agent to begin with which I wasn't of course um no you're just going to you're going to see your grandma that's yeah exactly I mean I love the fact you can laugh I mean in the sense of you talking from something incredibly unimaginable for for most people thankfully through to now being back in the UK and being where you are and talking to us today.

But your name has also been linked to Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe because you were, I understand, in the same block. Yeah, we were in the same solitary confinement unit. Yeah. And she's obviously still, she's now at home under house arrest. She's still in that situation. You ended with your charges thankfully being dropped. I know, again, a very long process.

But in the sense of this is something we are waking up to. We're hearing more about Iran. And I wonder when you think of where Nazanin is now and how she's doing, what can you think and how should we think about this? Well, I think one thing that happened with the case of Nazanin is that because she became such a prominent figure, perhaps one of the most famous prisoners in the world, was that people, as you rightly said, started paying attention to what Iran is doing.

And Nazanin, in that regard, isn't really an isolated case. She is one of thousands, hundreds if not thousands, of unfairly arrested and imprisoned individuals. And we've seen a spike in 2014 of Iran arresting dual nationals at the height of Iran nuclear deal. Before Nazanin, the most famous prisoner would have been Jason Rezaian, an American-Iranian journalist for The Washington Post. He was freed during the Obama administration in exchange of $1.7 billion. So Iran has done this routinely, and in that sense,

Nazanin is one of many. But luckily, Richard, who has also appeared previously on your show, he has really managed to keep her in the headlines. So I never came into direct contact with her but I have been in touch with her via email and through her husband of course and you know we I've engaged in the advocacy work um he's done to um kind of amplify this cause this larger phenomenon um so that we can prevent future incidents like this and we will of course keep with that story and your life is back in the news because of this extraordinary success you know

you're you're now off to oxford you've got a scholarship and you're going to study is it right modern persian studies in your phd so i will be studying modern Middle Eastern studies with Persian and Arabic as the language tracks. And what do you hope to do with that? What's the future looking like for you, Anna? The future, who knows what the future will hold. I am very, very positive and hopeful. You know, there is a saying that says you don't go to hell and come back empty-handed um i went through all of that and yes i have trauma i feel damaged but at the same time i see it as wisdom insight fortified morality i i try to look at it from a positive um window because otherwise you know you would you couldn couldn't really process all that happened.

And so I hope that I will play a good force in the future of the Middle East. You know, once you hit the rock bottom, the only way is up. So we'll see what the future will hold. But for now, it is academia and we'll take it from there. And you'll see where that goes. Well, it's fascinating to talk to you. Of course, people are thinking a lot about Iran at the moment, not least because of the Vienna negotiations to try and revive that landmark deal

to limit the country's nuclear programme. And as you say, we will keep with the story of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. But sadly, she is far from alone. But Anna, thank you for taking us a bit into your journey. But also, I think it's also important to follow up where people go and what they do next. And I know that's sort of been your fight to try and get back to some kind of normality. Absolutely. And one thing I wanted to point out is that usually when you hear of hostage stories, we tend to think that once the person is released,

then the story is over and they're back to their normal lives. And it's actually far from the truth. Exactly. But I think that's why your story has resonated and will continue. I'm so sorry, but we have to leave it there for today. But do come back again on Woman's Hour. Thank you for your company today. We'll be back tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one.

Are you fed up with the news? People are fed up. Next slide, please. The skewer. The news chopped and chunkelled. Welcome to the repair shop. In the repair shop today, Matt needs help with a cherished possession.

What have you brought us? A National Health Service. Oh dear. It's everything you need to know. Like you've never heard before. Have you ever dabbled in an animal? I haven't said no. You've tried donkeys.

Dating. Pierce, we had a good time at university. The biggest story. With a twist. Suddenly, thank God, Spider-Man came in and said. Spider-Man quite rightly. had a good time at university. Kate Winslet has saved the health secretary, Matt Hancock, from the jaws of a crocodile by punching it in the face. Suppliers of racist and sexist tweets are struggling to meet demand. The Maltese Award for the name of a terrible comedy. Order.

Order. Video link. Scott Mann. Thank you, Mr. Dahlman. He's very good. Scott. Scott. Sorry, you sound like a Dalek.

Barry Gardner. You are an enemy of the Daleks. Video link. Paul Blomfield. I'll be back. We'll try and get you back. The Skewer. The Skewer. Barry Gardner. You are an enemy of the Daleks. Video link, Paul Blomfield. I'll be back. We'll try and get you back. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer.

The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. The Skewer. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

Available now.