Woman's Hour - Feminist porn, Karen Millen, I Can Hear The Cuckoo, Forced marriage

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

Erika Lust makes adult films that focus on female pleasure, diversity and what she calls ethical production. She has big ideas about how to change the porn industry and joins Anita Rani in the studio to discuss them. Karen Millen, creator of the eponymous fashion brand has created a new collection over 40-years after she set up her first shop. She sold the business in 2004, but in later years she filed for bankruptcy. Now aged 61, Millen is returning to designing clothes. She joins Anita to talk about the highs and lows of her life so far, and starting over.Forced marriage has been illegal in England and Wales since 2014, but a study jointly by the Universities of Lincoln and Bristol, has revealed that the crime remains rife. Their research on the use of Forced Marriage Protection Orders, designed to prevent forced marriages, used data from nearly 600 case files from police forces nationwide. Anita is joined by the criminologist, Professor Aisha Gill, one of the leads on the research, who is proposing new measures to protect victims. Journalist Kiran Sidhu moved from London to the Welsh countryside after the death of her mother. She has written a memoir about what she learnt there of grief, community and unlikely friendships, ‘I Can Hear the Cuckoo’. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt Studio manager: Michael Millham

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. Quite an hour lined up for you all today. We've got a couple of women on the programme who've experienced highs and lows in some way and made a decision to cut their losses and start again. Karen Millen, the woman originally behind the High Street fashion brand,

will be joining me to share her story about selling her business for a fortune, losing everything and now starting again. Also, Kiran Sidhu, she's written a memoir about leaving behind her London life and moving to rural Wales after the death of her mother. So this morning, I'd like to hear your stories of major change. When have you cut your losses to start again? What was the event that made you decide that life needed to change? And what did you do? Was it after a divorce, post lockdown, after a death? Was it a dream, an epiphany, a life-changing trip or simply being inspired by someone else's story?

What are you doing now with your life and are you glad you made the change? I can tell we're going to hear some good tales from you all today. You can get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. You can email me via our website. You can contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Or you can drop me a WhatsApp message or even better if you're up for it and you can keep it relatively short, a WhatsApp note.

03700 100 444. And here's a question. Is it ever too late to start again? Tell me what you think. Also on the programme, how protected are victims of forced marriage by the system currently in place to protect them? I'll be speaking to Professor Aisha Gill about a new study calling for change. That text number, once again, 84844. Get in touch with your stories of changing your life in some way. But first, porn. Do you watch it?

Does your partner watch it? Maybe you watch it together. Do your kids watch it? It's a big part of the internet, that's for sure. And my next guest will say it's now part of mainstream media, but still shrouded with shame. If we take one website, Pornhub, it's the fourth most visited website in the United States in March this year. And the UK, it's the fifth largest market. We've spoken often on Women's Hour about the online safety bill and government efforts to control what children are seeing online. A recent report found children as young as eight are watching porn

and it's impacting their behaviour too. Well, we very rarely get to speak to the people who make porn and today I have someone here with me who does just that. Her name is Erica Lust. She's a filmmaker creating adult films that focus on female pleasure, diversity and ethical production. Some even call it feminist porn. She has big ideas about the industry needs to change, all of which we are about to get into. Erica, good morning. Welcome to Woman's Hour.

Good morning. It's great to have you here. I think we need to hear a bit about you before we get into all of this. What got you interested in the world of pornography? Good morning. and our own sexuality. And I felt that when I was watching porn, my body did get excited. It reacted to the images I did see, but I didn't like them. And at that time, I was a student of political science. So I was into trying to understand the world we live in, power structures. And I just realized, talking to men and women around me,

that most men had no problem with porn. They watched it. It was part of their life. They liked it. And most of my female friends, they felt the same way as I did, that something wasn't really working out for them. So I kind of took the matter into my own hands and I felt, let's see if I can make a porn film, but with my values, from my point of view, where I put the women in the centre of the story. We see them develop their desire, their fantasies,

and we see them having sex in a way where they are not just tools to male sexuality, but they are actually pleasing themselves in an authentic way. Which brings me on to my next question. What are your thoughts on the porn that's on offer at the moment? Well, you know, I believe that porn has become mass media, and this has happened partly because of the tube sites

that kind of hijacked the porn industry, you know, before they entered. What we had was porn behind payment walls, behind payment barriers. You had to be an adult, you had to have a credit card to be able to access porn. And then what happened with the tube sites is that suddenly porn was free for everyone. And when we say everyone, that's anyone with, you know, technology, because we have given technology to our kids from very early ages. And what we see today is that they are, they are, you know, clicking, they are't have access to good sex education. That we, you know, as parents and as educators, we are not telling them what they want to know about sex. So it's only natural that they are searching for it on the internet.

And the way the internet works is that it sends them directly to explicit porn sites without the payment barriers. So the porn that you're creating, how does it differ to what's out there? We are going to get into, you know, children accessing porn, because I know that you and your husband are doing some work on that. But we'll get into that in a bit. I'm just intrigued for the audience to understand exactly what it is that you make. Well, you know, everything is really different.

It's about the process, how you feel, how you, you know, take care of the worker standards of everybody working to make this film happen from performers to the crew members. We have a bill of right where we explain to our performers the process and every paperwork and how the whole thing is going to happen. It's about conversations with them beforehand the process and every paperwork and how the whole thing is going to happen.

It's about conversations with them beforehand. So they are aware about anything that they are going to do. We talk about who they want to work with as co-performers, about what acts are going to be done. There's obviously SDI testing that is shared between performers. They have access to intimacy coordinators, to talent managers who can help them through the process. I want to create an environment that is as safe as possible so people feel that they can speak up if something is going wrong for them. And then I check in with them after a shooting to make sure again that

they feel good about what is happening. But it's not only that doesn't happen elsewhere. I mean, it's becoming better in the industry. I think I think that independent porn producers have had an impact on the kind of mainstream industry and how people are shooting films today. But what I see in the industry is still that even if production is made in a proper way, many times, you know, when we get into marketing and distribution, then it becomes unethical in the way that they market the films, in the way that they classify people, they fetishize people, they tokenize people. You know, you can see in mainstream porn and on many of the tube sites, categories where they divide people into groups. They, you know, divide them by race.

Sometimes they talk about tiny Asians. They talk about sexy Latinas and the MILFs and the teens and hyper-sexualization of teens. There are many things that kind of goes wrong in that process. And people feel that they stop having agency over their image and their representation.

And we're specifically talking about the representation of women in the porn industry. Is it because the majority is because it's made by men for men? I mean, it's definitely still, you know, lots of men working in the porn industry behind the cameras and operating the businesses, owning the businesses, etc. It's a male industry still today, even if more women are in it. But it's not only that it's done by men, but it's really what kind of men if you start looking at it, because it's a group of men that most of them are cis, white, hetero, middle-aged, and they have a particular vision of sexuality. And that vision is, you know, boobs and ass and cars and cigars. And it's kind of the sexuality that's in there, you know.

But this is not very different from our society in general. You know, the way I see it, porn is really a mirror of the values we have in our society. And you can also see it in music videos. You can see it on television. I mean, it's all out there. So I think that what we need as women is getting into this industry, is starting to tell our stories from our point of view. And not only women, but also, you know, LGBTQI plus people, BIPOC folks, etc. We need to start telling the world what we find sexy, what we want to see,

what turns us on. So how does the porn differ then when women are the consumers and the creatives? Well, it differs in the way we are participating in the process of making it. It differs in the way we are participating in the process of making it. It differs in the way we are representing ourselves on screen. And it differs in how we see women actually being pleasured in an authentic way. It's not only the four minutes of very hard penetration and then you see the women come, but you actually see women stimulating themselves in an authentic way, a clitoral way many times, because we all need it.

Most women need a little handwork to make it work. Those of you just joining us, we're having a very frank conversation about the porn industry with Erica Luss this morning. And you have customers that have to come to you and pay for it. It's behind a paid wall. That's also a big part of what I call ethical porn. I think that we not only have to protect the children but we also have to protect the workers in this industry. There are people here who need to be paid correctly.

They need to be able to pay their rents, their school for their kids, their food on the table, etc. We need to protect the workers of the industry. And you do that by paying for your porn. You do that by investigating the sites. When you go porn surfing online, you need to see if there's an about page. Can you learn anything about that company? Who's directing these films? Who's behind it? Is there a BTS you can watch? Is there an interview with performer? Can you see if you align with the values of these companies? Because most companies in the porn world, they are not transparent. They are just, you know, a postbox somewhere in the world, but without real people, without real names. I want to feel proud of the work we are doing.

I want to be able to show people how we do our films. And are people paying for it? If you can get it for free, why would they pay for it? Because it's better, because they feel that they do align with the visions. And what I see also is that it's not only women who are paying for it. It's also men. Because men are waking up. They are starting to realize that a lot of that porn that they have been watching on the tube sites, suddenly they see the taglines.

They tell me that after having read an interview with me or seeing a TED talk that I have done, suddenly they recognize that it says tiny teen is getting destroyed. And they wake up, they become aware and they start, you know, telling me that they are not aligning with this values. They want to watch sex. So they do go to the tube sites, basically, where they find the free porn. But as soon as they start reflecting on it, I think there is an opportunity of change in our behavior. And we've seen it in other industries. We've seen it in the food industry, how people are waking up, how they are realizing that big food, it's not about, you know, the best nutrients and taking care of the animals.

It's about power and money. And with big porn, it's the same. So what would you like to see happen then, Erika? I mean, it's a huge industry. It's a big question. Would you like to see all of it go behind a paid wall? I would love to see that. I think that that is the fastest and the best way of making porn secure for adults and for younger people. If it was, though, would there be could you just be pushing the more extreme, the really dark stuff of the in the corners of the Internet where regulation is nearly impossible?

But I think further down, it even, it's already there. People who are searching for that, they are already finding it. But I think that most people are not searching for that. Most people are just searching for an arousal and they want to find that in good conditions. And I do see that people value good films with a little narrative where they understand who are these characters? Why are they into each other? What is going on? What is happening?

They do value cinematic values. They do value to know that the performers have been taken care of, that they have been working in safe working conditions, that they, you know, it makes them feel better with the porn they're watching. You mentioned, I said, you and your husband are doing a lot of work into encouraging parents to talk to their children about porn. You've set up a website called Porn Conversation. How much do you worry about the real impact, real life impacts of children watching porn? It's something we talk a lot about here, last week the Children's Commissioner in the UK used statutory powers to analyse more than 500 cases of sexual abuse between under 18s provided by police. And in 50% of the cases, the interview transcripts referred to acts of sexual violence specific to pornography, such as strangulation

and slapping. I do worry quite a lot about it. I think that we definitely need to teach our kids porn literacy. We need to teach them media literacy. They need to be aware that porn is an exaggerated fiction of sex. It's not the same as sex. Because I think that that is one of the things that is happening now, that many kids think that they can learn from porn about sex. And that is not true. They can learn about sex from sex education. And we as parents, I think we have to tell them that what happens with porn is the same that happens with a video game. You can play,

you know, a video game with fast cars and they can crash and you can even kill people in a video game, but it's not reality. You can watch Superman fly in a movie, but no man will be able to fly. They know the difference of fiction and reality, but when it comes to porn, it's still not clear to them. So I think that's the first thing we really have to tell them. And then we need to put energy into sex education, because that's what they are looking for. That's what they want. We have spoken to a chap called Michael Conroy on the program. He's a former teacher, and he now runs a training program called Men at Work for teachers dealing with these sorts of issues. And he says the first thing that needs to happen is that dads need to stop watching porn. What do you make of that?

I think that dads need to start watching better porn. For me, the answer to, you know, to porn, to bad porn is not no porn. It's better porn. Words by Annie Sprinkle, you know, one of the sex positive feminists who was one of the first persons to really talk about this. I think that dads could learn a lot by, you know, becoming more aware, more awakened and starting to understand how porn can be beneficial in their lives instead of just being this anxiety killer. The way I see many people using porn today is, you know, online opening up window after window.

And they are almost using it to kill their anxiety in the same way as they're opening up a bag of potato chips, just eating it. And then afterwards, it doesn't feel that good to them. I think we need to tell our children how we feel about porn. For me, it's not about shaming them. I think we need to tell our children how we feel about porn. For me, it's not about shaming them. It's not about to make them feel that it's not right to watch it. It's just explaining for them that it's meant for people over 18, for adults, and that we feel that when

we see this kind of porn showing harmful messages as structural violence towards women, as sexualization of teens, racism, homophobia, etc. We don't agree with those values because we believe that porn should be about consenting adults in a controlled ambient. Erika, it's a multi-billion dollar business that dwarfs what you're doing. How realistic is this change? I think it has to come not only from producers and not only from women, but coming also from consumers. We need this kind of awareness.

And I see it's happening in other industries. I mean, we were talking about food. I have seen in the food industry how people are becoming more and more aware, how they're going locally, how they're eating, you know, more and more plant based. We even, you know, have seen in fashion, in tech, etc. We see how people are becoming aware of this. So I do think that the more we talk about it. I was just going to say, maybe this conversation is making some people listening to it think about it and what they're consuming and why they're consuming it and what it's doing for them. Because socially, we don't talk about sex.

We don't talk about porn because it's still something so shameful for most of us. Not here on Woman's Hour, we talk about it. Before you go though, Erika, thank you so much for that. It was very interesting. Is Lust your real surname? It was a taken surname. Erica is my name and Lust is what makes me go. Yes, it's your driving force.

Erica Lust, thank you so much for speaking to me on the programme. We've got a couple of statements, one from Pornhub. Pornhub's parent company, ECP, say they have several policies and measures in place that have helped them set the standard for trust and safety in the technology and social media industries. They say their comprehensive measure for verification, moderation and detection make Pornhub the safest platform online and at the forefront of combating and eradicating illegal content. And Instagram say, Instagram, well, Instagram didn't send us a statement but pointed us to their user policy.

They say their rules are designed to be sensitive to a global community, which includes teens over 13 years old. Erica Lust, thank you once again. Lots of you getting in touch with your stories of changing your life for one reason or another. Nearly 17 years ago, I was a senior housing officer with London Borough of Barnet, was really unhappy and stressed

and had three small children. So with my manager, we set up two local magazines where we live. As a result, we had and still have a great work-life balance. And today I'm out delivering our magazines whilst listening to Radio 4. I'm so happy I made the break. Not quite so much the cash, but much better quality of life.

And that's from Wendy. 84844 is the number to text. Now, on to my next guest. Who's got a Karen Millen dress? Who's got one in their wardrobe? Or who remembers wearing one, perhaps to a wedding? Or just walking past the famous high street shop and admiring the clothes in the window sitting in front of me is the gorgeous woman behind the brand since setting up her first shop back in 1981 a lot

has happened the highest of highs and the lowest of lows and now an element of starting again Karen Millen welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you. Wonderful to have you. It's good to have you here. I don't think, I'm not sure how many people realised that there was a real person behind the brand. Let's go back to when you set it up. What was the story? You were very young, weren't you? Yeah, I was pretty young. I was 19, just finished college. Excuse my voice, it's full of cold. Me and you both, don't worry, we can just be husky together. Yeah, I basically sort of like at the end of my school time,

I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. I was kind of interested in doing interior design or really being a painter and decorator. Nothing that glamorous. And my teachers sort of said, look, you know, you should be doing something else, maybe fashion, because I always used to go to school sort of dressed differently hair was always different and um obviously sort of very creative person young person and um so they they took me along to a local college um uh Medway College of Design in Rochester and it was their end of year shows and I watched that and

they looked at me and said well what about this and I was like what you think I can do that yeah and they're like why not you know let's put a portfolio together and apply to the college so that's what we did and how easy was it to set up the business? How easy was it to go and get did you go to banks did you? Well I mean obviously sort of fast forward a bit and three years of college came out of college and didn't really know what I was going to do. I kind of wanted to work for myself but really didn't have that much direction and quite shy as well so I wasn't really going to put myself out there and then I went on a holiday and met my to-be partner, Kevin, and told him what I was doing. He was like, oh, yeah, that sounds really cute.

You know, great. Pursue that. So I started making shirts for some friends. The iconic white shirt. No, it's not actually. The first part was I bought a load of um shirt in fabric which was mainly stripes and was making some friends you know shirts for friends originally and um that progressed to buying the hundred meters of white cotton which I started doing

small collections and selling them through party plan idea which is something my mum had um you know suggested I do so she got the girls from the office, you know, at home and we created a party plan sort of scheme. So we went from one party to another party and built that over the year and did some markets, anything really to start sort of, you know, generating some income. Proper graft. Proper graft, yeah. Yeah, so I was literally making, cutting and making things

on my parents' floor or the kitchen table. And then how easy was it for you to actually start the business and get a loan as a woman, going to the banks back then? Well, I'd already decided, you know, that I was going to be in partnership with my partner that I'd just met. I mean, we kind of fell in love and it was like, we're together and we'll start a business together. Because although he didn't come from that industry, I, you know, he wasn't in that industry. He was in an engineering industry and didn't really like it but had you know a passion for fashion in the same way that I did so we pursued my career rather than his and so I think for about a year we continued with closed parties and then we managed to get a small loan to buy some equipment, cutting equipment.

And that gave us the sort of ability to sort of make more. And then we were using outworkers to produce some of the clothes at the time. So we'd both go round to the outworkers, drop off bags that we'd cut and pick them up, bring them back to our flat and um just put the buttons on them press them cut the trimmings and all those sort of things i'm smiling because my parents were in the rag trade as well so absolutely similar story of my childhood like dropping things off picking stuff up except it was me that was doing the cutting and the trimming oh well not the cutting just a bit of trimming maybe um and then in the first 10 years you did really well and you did well in the first 10 years, you did really well. And you did two, four shops. Well, in the first 10 years, really, I wouldn't say we did really well. We just sort of, it was a slow growth.

In the first 10 years, we managed to open four stores. That's pretty good. Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess so. It didn't feel like that at the time. It felt a real battle because we, you know, we were learning from our own mistakes, really. We hadn't come from the industry. We were young, naive, but probably that's a good thing to have been so naive because I think if you know some of the things that you had to face along the way you probably wouldn't have done them

um but yeah um we we kind of like used the first year like an apprenticeship really so um we opened the first door in Maidstone my hometown then went on to open a second one in tunbridge wells then gilford and brighton and during that period you know we were very hungry and wanted to grow but never really envisaged it being quite as big as it become that was never really how do you go from four stores to them well the same way that you go from 10 to 20 really it was like you get to that point and all of a sudden you find yourself, well, let's just do another one or let's just do another two. And it just grew organically almost. You'll have to explain it because most of us don't grow businesses like you have, Karen. You'll have to explain how credit my partner, Kevin, in terms of the growth side of the business, because he worked on the business side and I was more on the creative side.

But I guess he had more of a vision than I did in the sense of the growth. And, you know, I think once you've conquered one sort of idea, another one comes. And if you've done one, you know, you may as well do. You run a role. It's more economical to do, get to a point where, you know, you're running, you know, more rather than less. Yeah. But it was all about confidence for us as well

and building an infrastructure, putting into place all those things that you need to be able to manufacture and deliver. And we were running an operation that's called like a vertical operation where you're doing everything from the start to the finish, which is quite, you know, quite rare. And certainly in those days was rare. And I think that was our point of difference to a certain degree.

And then to cut a long story short, you achieved huge success. You basically did what a lot of small businesses dream of doing, which is growing and then selling. And you eventually sold the business in 2004 for £95 million. And you made £35 million. What does that feel like? And what does it feel like? I mean, it was amazing.

Yeah. I mean, it such a an achievement and I think we were pretty lucky because in those days times you know I think it's all about you know hitting the market at the right time and we just happened to be there at the right time ready to sell and I think our personal circumstances made it easier to go through that process in the sense of, you know, we had split 20 years after building the company and we're going our separate ways. And it just felt the right time to actually, you know, say goodbye to it and move on. Did you completely walk away from the business at that point? I did. And it felt really weird because it felt like we were giving away our children, our babies, because, you know, we'd given birth to it and watched it grow and put everything, you know, all our energy and love

and passion into that and then to let it go. And the next day after signing those papers, walk away thinking, you know, what's my purpose in life now? So what was it? Well, I had three children, young children at the time. So I kind of focused on that. Because I found the whole journey quite exhausting, you know, after 20 years, I think not only that, because of the emotional side of my split, I think I was just exhausted. And I think the industry changed within that 20 years too in the sense of you know when we started the high street was was um new really I mean what was happening was really exciting and I think I always remember next opening and being so excited by the concept that they had um it was so refreshing for the high street to actually deliver um collections of clothes and coordinate them in the way they did

and package them the way they did um so it was quite groundbreaking and we were following on behind that we were already started but we could see you know there was some synergy there and something to to work towards and um and so yeah it was it was exciting times and then i think you know more and more stores opened the high street became really buoyant and it was a fantastic place to shop. But then fast forward that 20 years, the High Street started looking very samey. And then there was lots of competition with supermarkets doing brands and people undercutting everything. And it just become, you know, a very difficult industry to work in and to be, you know, true to your brand and keep the level there. So it was hard. And I just felt that the time was for me, you know, particularly,

it was time to let go and move on, really. And I say you made all the money. But then, you know, like I said, at the beginning, when I introduced you, you've had the highest of the highs and the lowest of the lows because you were declared bankrupt. Yes, I was years ago. And what impact did that have on you? How did that make you feel? What happened? Well, it's something I don't really want to go into in too much detail because there's a lot of legalities involved. But, yeah, I think overall, I guess I was badly advised on certain situations. My money was invested in things that they shouldn't have been. Bad tax advice from people that you think were professionals.

You're paying them to do their job. And I trusted them and, you know, it got me into trouble. So, and what does that do to your mental health? Well, fortunately, I'm quite a strong person and I managed to cope with it quite well. Obviously, I have my moments, but I pick myself up and I move on. You know, I come from a very humble background, working class background. So everything that I had, I'd worked hard for. But I was used to not having much initially. And I think all of those things helped me cope with having nothing again.

Although sometimes I think it is harder once you've had something to have it taken away from you. And yeah, of course, it's difficult. And it was really difficult for my children to accept that, you know, they were living in a beautiful home, grew up there, private education, you know, and it was it was a great, great life for them. And suddenly it was all taken away. And so how do you come back from that? Well, you know, my family and my friends have always been very supportive. And, you know, for me, that's key. And they believe in me and give me the

support I need and you know I just thought well you know I'm still young I was only 40 when we sold the company so I retired early really and I kept thinking you know this is ridiculous there's still much more in me you know I should be doing something but there was lots of things and reasons and legal things that were keeping me busy and you you know, wasted a lot of time, to be honest. And so maybe you were just enjoying your time. Well, I was enjoying it. I hope you enjoyed your time. I did enjoy part of it.

I mean, initially, as I said, I was trying to come to terms with who am I now? You know, I kind of lost my identity almost. And so it took me a few years probably to get my confidence back and find a purpose. And now you are back. And now I am back. Back at Karen Millen. I am back at Karen. Well, I'm not.

Well, it's. I'm not back at Karen Millen. I've been invited back to do a collection. Which has now been taken over by the brand Boohoo. Yes, it was bought by them in 2019, I believe. And tell me what you'll be doing with them. Well, I've actually done it. So they contracted me for a year to do a 30-piece collection,

which was, you know, the brief was very open. So I basically did 30 pieces over two colourways. Well, it works out like 15 pieces really over two colourways. And it launched two weeks ago online. And what's the vibe of the collection? Because 80s and 90s are so back now. I know. And you've got young people wearing 90s fashion.

I know. All my friends' daughters are out raiding their wardrobes now for old Caramellon. It's great. It is great. No, I think it's good. I mean, and the timing's perfect, I guess, in that sense. There is a revival towards the 80s and 90s.

Why is it having a moment? Well, I think, you know, things are cyclical, aren't they? Particularly in fashion. And there's always lots of references towards, you know, the past when it comes to fashion. And I think because of the generation now coming through, the 80s and 90s are all quite relevant to them. It's new to them and they're finding, you know, a lot of fun with it. Yeah, and there's a lot of good fashion from back then. What's it like? I'm asking our audience about life change moments.

And, you know, you've had so many big things happen to you. What's it like now being back? Well, it's really energised me again. It's been great because I have obviously gone through some moments where I've been low and it's been difficult trying to sort of have a vision and move. And what do I do? You know, I've lost my way a little bit. So the opportunity to go back and do a small collection was great. I thought about it a lot.

And at first I thought, no, it's not something I want to go back to. Why did you think that? Well, I just thought, don't go back, go forward. And it's a company that's hardly recognisable now to me, or was. They'd taken all the stores away from from the high street so it was an online business which is something i'm not really familiar with as when we sold it we we you know it wasn't an online business yeah um and so you know lots of changes but and obviously you know i was wary of how people would receive me you know and lots of

high expectations of people and could I deliver so you know it was with trepidation that I I said yes but you've done it and I've done it and I'm really pleased I've done it it's been fantastic and I've had great response from it and it's really lifted me good wonderful and I can see you look so radiant and you look amazing I just have to explain that you've got this black blazer on, red shirt and a red tie as well. Yes. Very cool. Powerful dressing.

It is powerful dressing. Karen, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. I really enjoyed that. Karen Millen there, has it inspired you to do something different with your life? Someone has got in touch to say, I reinvented myself twice whilst a single mum of two. After two divorces, first from an alcoholic husband,

second from an abusive husband, I worked very hard on my creative business. We now have a lovely life and live it to the full. I'm stronger now than I ever would have been without the turmoil and my kids gave me the strength and drive to fight and keep going. And the message she says at the end is never give up. 84844 is the number to... I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year,

I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now. Text. Next, forced marriage has been illegal in England and Wales since 2014, but a study by the University of Lincoln and the University of Bristol has revealed that the crime of forced marriage remains rife. The research on the use of forced marriage protection orders designed to prevent forced marriages use data from nearly 600 case files from police forces nationwide. And covering the scale of the problem, the authors are proposing new measures urgently needed to better protect victims. Well, I'm joined now by criminologist Professor Aisha Gill,

one of the leads on this research from the Centre of Gender and Violence at the University of Bristol. Morning, Aisha. Good morning. Thank you so much. It's great to have you on the programme. I think we should start by just clarifying what a forced marriage is. Sure. But before I do that, I just want to acknowledge my colleague, Professor Sandriya Neeta from the University of Lincoln and the research is funded by

the Nuffield Foundation. In answer to the question around forced marriage, it's a marriage where there's no consent, there's no choice so basically one or both parties will lack consent and obviously it's on a continuum so at one end of the continuum, you've got arranged marriage consent. At the other end of the continuum, forced and the grey areas in between. When does an arranged marriage become forced? And we're interested in the coercive elements of forced marriage

and also looking at civil remedies and how effective they are. So what did your research reveal? Well, basically we found that the orders need to be, and these are civil remedies just for the benefit of the audience, that the forced marriage protection orders need to be embedded in relation to safeguarding. So basically, the point there is it's not the end of the process,

but it's the beginning. And one of the key other findings we found is that victim retraction was not the end of the process but it's the beginning and one of the key other findings we found that is that victim retraction was not the norm but the exception and this basically relates to the coercive nature that leads to retraction but the other things Anita that are really important to highlight is that you know there are assumptions that these kind of marriages occur in South Asia Middle Eastern East and diaspora communities, but they also occur in Irish, Nigerian, Somali communities. And also, you know, we found cases in which people with disabilities, lesbian, gay, trans, queer, plus LGBTQI, were also especially vulnerable to forced

marriage. And the thing is, you know, we're really um we welcome the findings are really critical and i think you know we've got these orders in place you know they are working but what we need is an urgent there's an urgent need to flag up the expiry of these orders so what are the orders exactly what what happens when a protect i don't think it's just to explain to people what the protection order is yeah the protection orders are there to actually ensure that victims are, that a forced marriage is prevented. And that's absolutely critical part of the civil remedies that have been put in place. And basically, these orders are used by a number of agencies that, you know, can, for example, the police and the legal services,

and really is to actually prevent the forced marriage from happening in the first place. So the key is that for the process of applying for an order is welfare is at the forefront of it. And we, our research findings have critically established that we need to ensure that various agencies work together to retain the confidence of the person concerned in terms of ensuring that the response is effective. And, you know, we know from our research that there is a lot to do in terms of coordinated responses to ensure that rapid risk is minimised, that all agencies need to be on board to respond quickly, to avoid retaliatory violence and the escalation of violence.

And here we're talking about other forms of violence, like honour base violence, threats to kill and so on. I want to get into a little bit about who's coming forward to seek these protection orders and just the vulnerability of the people. Because you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, victim ret retraction so people taking back that this is happening to them so just to understand just how vulnerable some of these um young people are i mean that maybe they're not that young i don't know what the age range is and it's not just women is that we're talking about men as well that's right um just to highlight in terms of the orders that we're. So could you just repeat the question again?

No, it's just understanding. I mean, if you want to talk about the orders, we can. I just want to understand who the victims are and how vulnerable they are, basically. Yeah. So the most common age of the victims were mostly men and women. But we also had victims as young as 11 and those from LGBTQI communities. And just to highlight the applications is about seeking protection. The case example, so just to give an example, is including the case of a 21 year old Somali man living in London who secured his parents' reluctant consent to marry him to his Somali girlfriend. So, and when they found out, they actually were very disapproving of his Western ways

and he was subjected to coercive control in the sense that he was asked to go back to Somalia to... Oh, Aisha, the screen has just frozen. We're going to see if we can get back um Aisha's connection there because uh I can see her on my screen but it's completely frozen so maybe we can see if we can figure it out and come back to it um 84844 is the number to text lots of you getting in touch with um your stories of big moments in your life where you've decided to do something completely different uh someone has been in Maggie Maggie's been in touch to say, after breast cancer, I was left feeling bad for a while for not making a major life change.

I got back on the same track, same job, same career, same routine and same ambitions. Breast cancer was tough and there was something powerful about it not changing my life. The relief that you have to live life to the fullest is enough. Aisha is back. So, yes, Aisha, you were telling me about the young Somali, a 21-year-old Somali man. Yeah, we're just demonstrating how these orders impact on different communities.

And one of the things that these orders are actually different from other injunctions, for example, for domestic violence, where the victim has left the abusive relationship and the injunction prevents the perpetrator from contacting them. But basically, the research highlights that there is a lack of knowledge about the complicated coercive pressures that victim survivors experience. And there have been significant missteps in multi-agency working. And basically, what we're calling for is that we're calling for greater effectiveness in terms of agencies working together to understand the lived realities and risks that victims face. And, you know, one of the things is to highlight that the pressure to marry may be suspended or it may not

be explicit due to the forced marriage protection order so just because it's in place it doesn't necessarily mean that that that pressure is is is is going to disappear and the thing is we need to be building trust that that working across agencies and taking proactive welfare checks to counter misinformation by parents and and and basically we we we we appreciate that there is good some good work going on out there in relation to policing responses the forced marriage unit but basically we we do need um we are calling for um more effective responses. And the police have put in a pilot scheme at the moment in terms of looking at, you know, how these cases can be effectively triggered and put flags in place so that, you know, the police are informed when a forced minor protection order is in place that they can

follow it through. So we're actually calling for, you know know that these flags because we they don't have expiry date on the forced mighty protection orders that those there is an expiry date put on that and that we actually engage with other not only specialist services which we're already doing but there is a lack of parity in terms of providing provision and housing for those who need protection and are not receiving it. For example, young women, for example, young men who may not get access to housing provision. If we compare that to, for example, care leavers, we need to be doing more to provide refuge, shelter for this group. And so Professor Sundari and I are going to be writing to MPs in regards to this.

How receptive has anyone been, the police or other people in authority, to your recommendations? Well, we had a launch at the House of commons earlier this week and there there is a um a keen interest and proactive um response to creating more equitable provision for victims of forced marriage and i do believe that um you know professor sundry and i will be meeting with key mps to actually push this forward because you know one of the key areas for you know improvement and change is is that you know at the end of the day we have got legislation in place you know a lack of criminalization you know because of retraction doesn't doesn't actually

mean a sign of failure but we we basically we want to create stronger indicators around safeguarding and that does mean yeah that we actually encourage, you know, a more cohesive engagement across agencies around safeguarding. Dr. Aishakil, thank you so much for speaking to me this morning. I'm sure this will be something we come back to at a later date once we hear what the response has been and how receptive people have been to the recommendations you've made. Thank you so much for speaking to me on Woman's Hour. Now, have you ever found a home somewhere unexpected while our next guest journalist kieran sidhu moved from london to the welsh countryside after the death of her mother she shared snippets of the experience in the guardian then decided to release a memoir i can hear the cuckoo it's a beautiful book Ciaran shares her own experiences of grief, home and community, as well as opening up about some unlikely friendships and lessons

she's learnt from the Welsh countryside. Ciaran, welcome to Woman's Hour. It is a stunning read. It's very beautiful, very, very moving. And early on in the memoir, right at the beginning, you describe moving out of London as a necessary decision rather than a desirable one. Why was that? Well, my mum passed away, tragically at 62, from cancer. And my family imploded. So I kind of lost my foundations. And I think sometimes when we're kind of disturbed by life in that kind of way,

we often go on a kind of adventure. You know, you think about Homer's Odyssey and Wizard of Oz and Dorothy. So I think this is kind of my odyssey, really, just removing myself from a place that no longer made sense. Earlier on today, you read an extract from the book, and it's about you deciding to leave London. I think we should have a little listen. I never thought I could ever leave London.

I love being swallowed by the city. I never imagined that one day it would spit me out. But as much as one imagines the future going on in one's life, one never imagines what actually happens. I didn't put up a fight when I left. Years ago I would have kicked and screamed, but years ago my life had been intact and it's a sign of maturity to see things as they are and not how you wish them to be. London had become a petri dish that cultivated pain. Before my big move I ran ran away for a month to the bright lights of New York City to spend time on my own. I spent the days writing and watching a blur of people rotate in the world as I tried to find my place in it.

I had become deeply sad. There is a myth attached to family homes that they, like chocolate boxes, are filled with sweetness and all our hearts desires. Family homes are fattened with love, filled with harmonious voices of those we share blood with, forever connected by our lineage. But this isn't true of my own family. Powerful. I want to pick up on that because you do talk at the beginning, before you get into the stuff about wells about how the toxicity of your own family yeah um it wasn't all my family no not all of them before just some of them yeah some of them i think growing up in a conservative culture even though my parents were really liberal i was still housed in a conservative culture a lot of things didn't mean much to me or make much sense to me and I think when my mum died like I said my family

imploded. Why do you think that happened was she the one keeping everything together? Yeah like mums do yeah and kept everything together and then in the end things there were people who weren't very nice to me my family and I think we kind of put up with things because we think people are related to us and I think if you're in an abusive marriage most people say leave but for some reason if it's a blood relationship they make excuses for that and I think it just keeps you in bad relationships really. So you cut your losses? Yeah I cut my losses yeah. And you went to Wales? I ran away I literally ran to the hills. Why? Why Wales? Well I've we've been to Wales on, so it's very familiar to me. But I think there's part of the countryside,

well, the countryside is very eternal when you compare it to the city. You know, I live near an ocean, I live by mountains. I felt like my mother belonged in that kind of mystery of life now. Everything else seems so ephemeral. The city's always been made up, built up, made to be torn down and built up again. But there's continuity in the countryside, which I felt quite safe in.

I don't think I would have written about my mother's death in so much detail if I hadn't moved to the countryside. I don't think I'd have been able to do that. I think the countryside brought a kind of soft focus to grief. And gave you space. And gave me space, yeah. And I think the countryside teaches you that there's a time to live and there's a time to die. And it kind of simplifies life in that kind of way.

The book's called I Can Hear the Cuckoo. Explain why you gave it that title. Okay. Oh, there's so many levels on this. We've got about five minutes for the whole interview before we drop off air and we're on to the next programme. OK, so my farmer friend, Wilf, he's a 72-year-old farmer. He taught me about the cuckoo, that the cuckoo arrives in April

and leaves in August. And the cuckoo comes from Africa and the bird will lay its eggs in other birds' nests. So it's almost displaced. And it's almost a bit like me. But it flourishes in a nest where it doesn't actually belong. It's a bit like me encroaching on the countryside, maybe. So he taught me about the cuckoo.

I wrote an article about him for The Guardian. It went viral. Because he was the person. It's not just the story of the cuckoo. It was him for The Guardian. It went viral. Because he was the person. It's not just the story of the cuckoo. It was him himself. Yes. And the way he told you. He broke down into tears.

Yes, he broke down into tears, which moved me because he was so moved by his life and moved by nature in a way that someone might be if they're looking at a painting or anything like that. And that kind of moved me. And he taught me to listen to a different kind of frequency. You know, in nature, listen to the birds. There's a time for everything.

There's a time for the kikku to arrive. There's a time for the kikku to leave in August. There's a time for lambing season. So I kind of plugged into a different kind of frequency and a different time. I mean, when you're in London, it's about timetables. It's about rushing. But here I was listening to a different, I kind of acknowledged a different time. I mean, when you're in London, it's about timetables. It's about rushing. But here I was listening to a different,

I kind of acknowledged a different timetable. Yeah, and I'm really grateful for that, for a different viewpoint. And meeting all these incredible characters, like you say, who would just drop in. That happens in the countryside. That doesn't happen in London. You have to book in months in advance before you see your mates but people just knock on your door um and someone who definitely

did something where she had a life change later in life is this wonderful woman Jane yes my friend Jane she's a 71 year old lady who lives up on the mountain and she had like four alpacas and four dogs and chickens and geese and she does everything on her own she recently got married at 70 after being single for 35 years um and she's such a doer and knowing people like that has made me realize what a procrastinator i am and i'm glad to be showing all these things that i think like i said jane's such an inspiration to myself and to my friends in London. I love that she has YouTube tutorials to do everything herself. Yeah, she paves her own garden.

She does her own plumbing. She's a force to be reckoned with. Huge life change. You've left London. You've left your family. You've gone to Wales. You're starting again. Were you ever scared?

I think I lost my direction in life. So the worst thing had happened, my mum died. So after that, you kind of think, well, there's not much more that's going to scare me. I think I wouldn't have been that definitely wouldn't have been up for such a radical change if my mother hadn't died. It's like I said, I think we all go on an adventure when we've been disturbed by life. But what about the loneliness of being in the countryside? I mean, it's only because sometimes when I used to say to my mum when I was a kid, it would be great to leave Bradford and go to the countryside,

my mum would just be like, I'd be scared. I think I was listening to my heart. I needed clarity and I needed a kind of solitariness. The book opens up with a quote by Chopin, it says, in solitariness we must face ourselves. I think those kind of adventures that we go on when we've been disturbed by life amount to the same thing.

It's to face ourselves. And that's what I was seeking. I was listening to my own heart. I didn't have the cacophony of the city anymore. And what about the process of actually writing the memoir? What's that done? Oh, that was... Yeah, so I wrote it in four months. I cried all the way through it.

It's quite difficult to revisit a lot, look at my mum's life under a microscope and her last days. But I think the countryside suffering that allowed me to do that. In the city, i kind of recoiled when my mother passed away but here i was sitting in the countryside looking at sheep and furling i felt like a safe place to and fell you can tell is it's beautifully written that it's written from the heart um is wales your forever home now i don't like to say forever home i mean life is mercurial like i don't think um home always exists in a postcode life changes we change so it's home for now and

i'm really enjoying it i'm still engaged with it in a very beautiful way and it still fills me with wonder and i'm still learning about things i I mean, in the book, we talk about me watching a slaughtering of a pig. And it's brought up loads of my old questions. Why wouldn't I look at the slaughter of a pig? Because I eat meat. So it's a real philosophical book with lots of kind of, it led me down a philosophical inquiry. And there's a story about me finding a red kite at the back of our house and it was near death and we kind of brought it back to life.

And there's so many stories like that in the book. It is beautiful and I highly recommend it because it's very moving. Thank you. Kieran, thank you so much for coming in to speak to us about it. The book is called I Can Hear the Cuckoo and it's by we have just explained that. Thank you so much. Join me tomorrow. Thank you to all of you who've been getting in touch with all your life change stories as well. I gave up my career in local government after 18 years and retrained as a nurse. Join me tomorrow where I will be speaking

to a singer songwriter Kesha. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm John York and I want to tell you about Opening Lines, a series from BBC Radio 4 in which I'll be looking at books, plays, poems and stories of all kinds that have made a mark and asking, what makes them work? I mean, this stuff is jaw-droppingly shocking. I'll be asking lots of questions.

What's at the heart of the story? How does it achieve its effect? What makes it special? History is usually written by winners, but he wants to give a voice to people who are not usually heard. I'll be hearing from people who know and love these works.

Writers. We do have an orgasm evoked on the page. Dramatists. Biographers. It's worn better as a book about England than it has as a book about sex, I think. And directors too. In the end, I'll be asking, what makes this work worth reading now? Join me to find out in opening lines from BBC Radio 4 and available on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.