Woman's Hour - Fertility Clinics during Covid-19, Mothers in Prison, Monica Dolan

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

Harriet Harman MP, raises concerns about the current treatment of mothers in prison during Covid-19 and the impact on their children and family life.. Fertility clinics were told last month that they could reopen as long as social distancing measures were in place. Being without access to fertility treatment has left thousands of couples – as well as single women – worried that they might run out of chances to conceive, and run out of time. Research has begun into the impact of clinic coronavirus delays on people’s lives, relationships and feelings. Public toilets have been a well-known victim of council cuts, leaving the UK with 50% fewer toilets than a decade ago. Coronavirus has caused even more closures – albeit temporarily. But where does that leave people who need urgent access to the loo? Monica Dolan is best known for her role as senior communications officer Tracey Pritchard in the BBC’s comedy W1A. We speak to her about her latest film ‘Days of the Bagnold Summer’ about a mother and her relationship with her heavy metal loving teenage son. Presenter: Jane Garvey Interviewed guest: Harriet Harman MP Interviewed guest: Seetal Savla Interviewed guest: Zeynep Gurtin Interviewed guest: Rachel Cutting Interviewed guest: Bekki Farrar Interviewed guest: Monica Dolan Producer: Lucinda Montefiore

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey and it's the Woman's Hour podcast. I cannot actually believe, apparently, today is Monday, the 8th of June 2020. On we plod. Hello, very good morning to you. I hope the weekend was reasonable. We're back live from Broadcasting House. We'd love to hear from you this morning at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

Or you can email the programme via our website. Today, how the coronavirus has affected people having fertility treatment. It has been so tough for so many women and for couples who are undergoing treatment right now or were before lockdown. We'll investigate that this morning. And we'll talk too to the brilliant actor Monica Dolan, who will discuss, amongst other things, her new film, Days of the Bagnold Summer, which I saw over the weekend. And it's really worth watching that one.

It's really, really good. So Monica Dolan with us today. Now, at the beginning of April, we were told that pregnant women and young mothers would be released from prison temporarily. Well, did that happen? And what about women with children still in prison and, of course, not able to get visitors? So young children, in many cases, not able to see their mothers at the moment. The Labour MP Harriet Harman is chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. And today she's got a meeting with the Prisons Minister to raise concerns about

the treatment of mothers in prison during Covid-19. So Harriet Harman, good morning to you. Good morning. A pretty clear statement it would seem from the MOJ back at the very end of March. I'm just quoting here, pregnant women in custody who do not pose a high risk of harm to the public will be temporarily released from prison within days and prisoners in mother and baby units meeting the same risk assessment will also be released with their children. So let's clear that up. Did that happen? No it didn't and there was an inspectorate report that came out on Friday this week saying the early release programme had been ineffective and obviously it's very acute for mothers with young babies who are in

mother and baby units or mothers who are in prison, but are separated from their young babies. But it's also those children, you know, whether they're 10 or 12 or 15, who suddenly are banned from visiting their mother in prison because of the COVID virus lockdown and are absolutely separated. And at that point, the question ought to be, what are we going to do? Are we going to actually separate these children from their mother by banning them, visiting them? Or are we going to respond to the COVID virus by letting the mothers out and saying, OK, early release, you can go home? And bearing in mind that 88% of women in prison are there for non-violent crimes, I just think the government really just should leap on this and say, right,

we're going to non-violent women offenders who've got children that are not able to visit them, who they're the sole carers of in normal times, they should just let them out under the early release scheme. Right. I'm confused now. Are you saying that no pregnant women in custody who don't pose a high risk were released? I think there's been four. But the estimates of the number of children who are separated from their mothers by their mothers being in prison and who now can't visit are thousands. I mean, the estimates of the number of children separated every year by their mother's imprisonment. I mean, I'm talking about estimates, it is ludicrous that we don't actually know the actual number. But the estimates range from 2,500 children separated every year by their

mother going to prison to 17,000. And the awful situation is, is that the government and the prison authorities and the courts, they don't actually know these children are invisible when the mother is sentenced. And, you know, it's take her down and send her off to prison. They are also sentencing those children at the same time. And yet they don't even know they exist some of the time. So really, there's this issue of the banning of visits of children to their mothers in prison should trigger not only early release for those non-violent women who are in prison whose children aren't able to see them, but it should trigger a rethink about what are we doing here? Why are we sending mothers of young children to prison when it's not even a violent offence? Now, we should get it into perspective here. In fact, in England and Wales, very few women are ever in prison for any length of time. Most women who do serve sentences, they are very short sentences, which I know creates a problem in itself. But we're actually talking about a figure

of around about, I've got the exact number here, in fact, 3,297 women were in prison in England and Wales as of the 29th of May and that's compared to nearly 77,000 men. So it's a tiny proportion of the prison population isn't it? And that's part of the problem in a way because the whole algorithm for prison policy is based on the many tens of thousands of men in prison. And therefore, the women who are in prison at any one time, which is, as you say, just over 3000, and even more worryingly, their children are overlooked. On average, the custodial sentence for women is about 11 months. So it's not an insignificant time. And there are so many heartbreaking cases. I mean, what we heard about on our select committee inquiry that we did before the

general election, and we're looking at this issue again because of COVID, is that the lasting damage it creates to the mother and child bond. And, you know, there is a human right of a right to family life. And these children are losing that right to family life. And for what? To protect the public from non-violent women who really ought to be dealt with and punished by the criminal justice system some other way. Let's hear from a woman who's been working with the charity Children Seen and Heard, which, Heard and Seen, I apologise, which, heard and seen, I apologise, which supports children whose parents are in prison. Now, in this case, you're about to hear the voice of a grandmother.

Her daughter and her son-in-law are both in jail and she is caring for their five children. My daughter and son-in-law were sent to prison 18 months ago and my five grandchildren came to live with me. My daughter was coming home on rottles every two weeks for five days but we haven't seen her for three and a half months now since lockdown, not even her face. This is affecting the children in a bad way, especially the youngest aged six. He has nightmares and cries so much. We all just need ychydig oeddiog, sydd â chyfnodau a chri yn llawer. Rydyn ni i gyd yn angen i ni weld hi. Y flwyddyn hon, ar Ffr... wel, ar Ffridae, roedd 13-oed-oed yn ddiwrnod 13. Roedd y plant eraill wedi cael mam yn eu lle ar gyfer eu diwrnodau hwnnw, oherwydd roedd 3 yn mis Ionawr, un yn Farch.

Ond y 13-oed-oed ar ddiwrnod arbennig, wel, nid yw'n bwysig pa ddiwrn y 13 oed ar ddiwrnod arbennig, na fydd yn bwysig beth ddiwrnod, ond ar ddiwrnod arbennig, doedd e ddim yn gweld mam. Roedd yn gallu siarad i hi, doedd e ddim yn gallu gweld ei wyneb. Mae mam wedi bod yn 10 mlynedd ac mae wedi bod yn fwy na 18 o flynedd. We didn't go to see her because she was coming home every two weeks for five days until the virus. We haven't seen her or dad for three and a half months, not even her face. Mum phones every day. I can't explain how it makes me feel. It makes me feel sad and confused. I miss my mum. I want to hug her and I miss her so much. Well, you have to feel for those children who are clearly desperately missing their mum.

And they are young people who have been helped by the charity Children Heard and Seen. Harriet Harman, we have had a statement from the prison service who say that 28 women have been judged eligible and released from custody during the pandemic under early release schemes. This includes 22 women who are pregnant or on mother and baby units with their infants.

So that's a positive, surely. Well, it is, but it's not enough. And it shows what's possible. They've got the powers to do this early release. But as the inspectorate, the prison inspectorate said in their report, which they published on Friday, they're just not doing it on the scale that it needs to be done. And there's real frustration amongst the prisoners, but also amongst those working in the prisons who think this is the moment that instead of making those children suffer that we just heard from. And there are thousands like them. We heard two young children's voices there, but there are thousands like them. They should get on and make this early release scheme work. Obviously, if women commit an offence, they need to be prosecuted and sentenced,

but there are other ways of punishing the mother, not by ruining the lives of the children, by this separation. We're also told by the prison service that they are really keen to help women who are still in custody. And they say here, we've given them extra time on the phone

and installed new video call technology at four women's prisons. What do you know about that? Well, again, the inspectorate report said this was very slow to get running. There are 18 prisons and really women's prisons. This really should be a last resort for those women they can't release. I mean, and I'll be asking the prisons minister when she comes to give evidence to our select committee hearing this afternoon, why don't you have the de facto position that you will release all women with dependent children who've committed nonviolent crimes and serve their sentence in the community.

Why don't you do all of that now unless there's a reason not to? So that instead of just in ones and twos letting them out whilst their children suffer, just take the decision. They're all going to be let out if it's a nonviolent crime, if they've got young children, unless there's a reason not to. Because, you know, what are we doing here? These children are suffering and it causes lasting damage and there are thousands of them. I know this has been a long running debate, not least on this programme, but precisely because there are, as you've already mentioned, so few women in prison, this is a real challenge, isn't it? The idea that women are still in some cases imprisoned because there are so few women. They can be a long way from home. Contact with families can be difficult. Travelling to and from the prison can be difficult.

This debate has been going on for some decades and it doesn't really show any signs of being resolved? Well, in a way, this COVID crisis ought to be the moment that the spotlight is on it. And we ask ourselves, really, what we're doing here. What purpose are we serving by making these children suffer? These women can have a sentence served in the community. And that's what should be done now. And the fact that there are so few women in prison compared to men should actually make it easier, not harder. But it's one of those areas of public policy which, you know, prisons often doesn't get the spotlight on it that it needs. But women in prison is even more of a kind of taboo swept under the carpet thing. But we we've got to think about their children and their future and their lasting need for their relationship with their mother.

And to have babies separated from their mother, we've got one example we're going to be hearing from this afternoon in our evidence session, where this child's a year old and for a quarter of this baby's life, it hasn't been with the mother. And what does that do to the bond from both the baby and the mother's side that for a quarter of this child's life is not able to be with their mother. Well, we'll find out more, I'm sure, when you do get to hear from the Prisons Minister, Lucy Fraser, later on today.

Thank you very much. That's the Labour MP, Harriet Harman, who's Chair of the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights. So if you've got a view on that, you can contact the programme at BBC Women's Hour on Twitter. Now, fertility clinics were told last month that they could reopen as long as social distancing measures were in place.

It's quite hard, actually, to see how that could work. But nevertheless, being without access to fertility treatment has left thousands of people worried, of course, that they might run out of time and run out of an opportunity to conceive. Now, research has begun on the impact of the coronavirus on people using fertility clinics, on their lives, their relationships, and on their emotions as well, of course. Zeynep Girtin is doing that research. She is a lecturer at the Institute for Women's Health at University College London, and I'll talk to her in a moment after we've heard from Sital Savla who has just restarted her treatment. Sital, good morning to you. Hi, good morning Jane, thank you for having me. Great pleasure to talk to you. Can you just tell us a little bit about

yourself? Sure, so in a nutshell my husband and I we had a surprise natural pregnancy about four years ago. Unfortunately that ended in an early miscarriage. And after that devastating loss, we spent about a year visiting our GP, having tests and various fertility tests, and embarked on our first round of IVF. Unfortunately, that was unsuccessful. And since we didn't qualify for funding for a second round, we then went to a private clinic and underwent two additional rounds, which were pretty intense and gruelling. Unfortunately, they also failed. And at the time, we started talking about donor eggs. And since our clinic only offers known donor cycles, we swapped clinics for one that offers anonymous cycles. And our current and fourth cycle started at the end of February,

at a time when coronavirus was making global headlines on a daily basis. So we were expecting our treatment to be affected in some way. And sure enough, it was after the egg collection. Right. I know you've written a very powerful blog about all this, haven't you? You are unsparing in your blog and you really lay it out there about the invasive nature of all this. And it's just, it has such a colossal impact on mind and body, doesn't it? That's right. It just affects you on so many different levels. And it does depend on the clinic and the protocols that you're following. And I've seen a difference in the treatment that

we've received, but definitely the two cycles that we had at our previous clinic really took it out of us emotionally, physically, financially, of course, as well. Well, yes, because you are private patients. Yes, that's right. I know that you're, and I understand it completely, you don't want to say exactly how much money this has cost you, but it is a very expensive business, isn't it? Yes, that's right. I mean, it does depend on the nature of the treatment you both need, the location as well, the clinic and protocols, the level of medication as well, but it is very expensive. So where are you at now, quite simply, in terms of your infertility treatment? We had our egg collection back in March

and I resumed treatment last week, actually. So now we are preparing for our frozen embryo transfer. So your private treatment and your private clinic is open again? Yes, that's right. Right, okay. I think we can bring in now Rachel. Is it Rachel Cuttings? I do apologise. Rachel Cuttings, good morning. Good morning. From the HFEA. What is happening in terms of clinics reopening or not? Are all private clinics now open, but not all NHS fertility clinics? all the treatment centres, those clinics that are providing treatment services to patients. And overall, at the moment, 87% of those are open. And then of those, mainly it is a lot more in the private sector. So 94% of all private clinics are open and 76% of all NHS services are open.

Now, that does mean that they've been given the green light to open and they can provide treatment in a safe way, but it might not be that they've actually started treatment yet. OK, there's quite a grey area there. If you are one of those individuals or part of a couple desperate to conceive, this is a really confusing and perplexing time, isn't it? It is. It's very difficult for patients. And we have tried to allow clinics to resume as soon as possible

so patients can get access to treatment. But it is a very difficult situation at the moment. To be blunt, if you're at a private clinic, you are more likely to be getting treatment than if very difficult situation at the moment. To be blunt if you're at a private clinic you are more likely to be getting treatment than if you're relying on the NHS it is actually that simple isn't it? There are definitely more private centres that are open but when we did look at the early stages the number of treatments that were being done it was more or less an equal mix between NHS and private last week it It was very low numbers to start with but that was encouraging that NHS patients were being treated as well as private patients.

How can you do this treatment with social distancing? Well we've had to, clinics have had to obviously adapt their services dramatically and what we did for the HFEA is that we asked all centres to review absolutely every aspect of their service and their clinic and it was a very detailed 50 questionnaire 50 questions in a detailed questionnaire to make sure that they could apply all the procedures and put policies in place so that patients could be treated safely. And it may be that some patients are happy and will go ahead and have treatments now. Others may decide, and we know that some patients have decided to wait a few months until things have calmed down a little bit.

So, for example, at the moment it might be if you're in a couple, the partner might not be able to go into a clinic with the patient having the egg collection. So we're trying to make clinics open safely and do well, but there will be different aspects of service that will have to be undertaken. And very briefly, who takes priority? That's up for an individual clinic to decide. Everybody has waiting, the clinics will have waiting lists and they may decide how to manage that themselves. That certainly is not something that the HFEA would comment or advise on. But if you were already undergoing treatment like CETAL for example, you would be moved to the top of the queue, you would be able to resume

where you left off? Well that would be up to the individual of the queue you would be able to resume where you left off well that will be up to the individual clinic to decide if you'd already started treatment and you'd had the medication then it may be that that you would be treated first and but it may be that clinics can't treat the same numbers as usual right so okay so again it might be a little bit you know it might be a little bit delayed more than usual. But delay is so significant here, isn't it? And a woman might go over a significant birthday. What happens to those women who are now, in quotes, too old for treatment? Well, that would have to be for the individual clinics

and the patients to talk to their clinics about. It may be that clinics would prioritise patients if they were approaching a significant birthday or it would be that they would talk, if they were NHS funded, they would talk to the local CCG and see if the funding can be extended. That's Rachel Cuttings from the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority. Zeynep Gürtün, I know you're undertaking research into all this now. Who have you talked to so far and what have they told you? Well, good morning. So

we have an online anonymous questionnaire that all fertility patients are very welcome to fill out and give us their opinions and responses. And so far, we've had about 400 people fill that out. And, you know, there's a huge range of worries. And there's a lot of anxiety and uncertainty, as I think you've already heard this morning. What patients are telling us in general is that a lot of them have been very understanding that clinics have had to close, they understand why that had to happen, and that it was a it was a safety issue. But they've been extremely frustrated about how it happened. And many of them have told us that they've had real difficulties trying to

communicate with their clinic and trying to just find out when they'll be able to resume treatment or all those questions that you've asked, who will have priority, how long they might have to wait, how their treatment might change. So I think a lot of patients are finding they're feeling very out of control and very powerless as part of their fertility treatment, which is at the best of times a really difficult and challenging situation to be in. And you've talked to key workers, I think as well, who are undergoing fertility treatment. Yes, that's right. So that was something I hadn't really anticipated when we started this study. But some of the, mostly women who filled out our questionnaire, have said that one of their main

concerns is that they've actually been working during this whole period as key workers, some of them as nurses, others doing other sort of frontline jobs. And so they feel they've been at increased risk of getting coronavirus. So they're feeling very anxious about what that's going to mean for their fertility treatment when it resumes. And also quite a few people concerned about what their employers will say when they start fertility treatment and whether they'll be able to take enough time off when they're in these key worker positions. I just want to read briefly a paragraph from an email we've had from an anonymous listener, but I know who you are and thank you for writing and I hope you're listening and you're okay today. She says that she and her husband have been trying for a baby for 17 months.

We are puzzled, upset and desperate. I must admit, I've really struggled to listen to some of your programs about the difficulty of being pregnant and giving birth in COVID-19. Many of our friends are proudly showing off their bumps. Infertility feels like such a shame at the best of times, but even more so now. I don't think that view will be uncommon amongst people who are having fertility treatment. And also, we should say, Zeynep, that there has been a lot of sometimes, I guess, rather thoughtless chat over the last couple of weeks of the so-called nightmare of homeschooling. You know, what a dreadful thing it is. I'm stuck at home with my children, blah, blah, blah. We've all got to stop that,

those of us who are in that position, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. So some of the women who filled out our questionnaire have actually said that they've been really hurt by some friends being insensitive, you know, not not meaning to be hurtful, I'm sure, but saying things like, oh, you're so lucky you don't have to deal with small children, or you have no idea how impossible it is to school small children. And you know, these are couples who are desperate to become parents. So to have that kind of feedback from friends can be really hurtful. And also people saying things like it's been very difficult to watch on social media, people posting mum challenges and all the sort of outdoor and creative activities they're doing with their children.

It just sort of really brings it home that not only are they not parents themselves when they wish to be, but they really at the moment have no idea when they're going to get to try to conceive again. Well, we heard Rachel say that from what she gathers at the HFEA, most private and NHS clinics are open in some form. Is that what you're hearing? Yes. And the HFEA actually have a sort of a comprehensive list on their website of all the clinics that have been given the go ahead to open. But as Rachel said herself, the fact that these clinics have been given the green light doesn't actually tell us how many treatment cycles they're doing, which patients they're seeing. And as you asked Rachel, I think some of the

patients who were midway through treatment might now be in a better position to resume. But what about all those patients that were on waiting lists? Are they going to have to wait even longer? So there is a lot of uncertainty about what actually that means and how many patients clinics are going to be able to see if they're trying to honour these social distancing requirements. Can people still get involved in your research? They can, can't they? Yes, absolutely. And we would love to hear from as many people as possible just so that we can put as good procedures in place for the future for supporting patients. And they can access it by going to it's bit.ly forward slash corona fertility study. And I think you might tweet about it as well. So we would love to hear from as many people as possible. I'm sure we'll put the links on the website but you anticipated my question Zeynep thank you very much. Thank you so much for having us. Great contribution from

Zeynep Gürtün who's doing that research at the Institute for Women's Health at UCL and Sital finally just a really open question to you how How are you? Are you finding this really tough? Thank you for asking. As Zeynep touched on, it is hard when you see all these challenges on social media. You hear pregnancy announcements and news of births as well. And you're happy for them. At the same time, you're struggling because you're at the starting block and you're not getting any further. And it's also out of your control. There are so many unknowns when it comes to IVF anyway and it was bitterly disappointing when we heard that our treatment would be affected but we sort of didn't have too much time to dwell on that because we were in the middle of selling our home and moving and my husband was having to furlough staff so in a way that made it easier for us to accept the news. And thankfully, we're quite grateful overall that we were only delayed by a month.

And I do hear of women and men whose treatments have been indefinitely postponed. And there are issues with funding or in case of surrogacy as well, babies being born abroad and they were unable to be there. So it's having a lot of consequences. How do people find your blog, Sital? They can find me at Savla Fair, which is S-A-V-L-A-F-A-I-R-E.com. And it's the same handle on all social networks as well.

Thank you. It sounds a bland thing to say, but honestly, best of luck to you. I hope things go well. Thank you. Take care. That's Sital Savla. So many people, I know, are having such a tough time in all sorts of ways at the moment,

but that's a real tough experience. Monica Dolan is joining us now, best known, I say, with my BBC head-on for her role as Senior Communications Officer Tracey Pritchard in the comedy made by the BBC about the BBC, W1A. Monica, good morning to you. Hello, Jane. It's lovely to be here. Thank you. Well, you're not here, if only you were, but you're familiar with the place where I am, which is the famous old broadcasting house studio 50C, where you wrestled Siobhan Sharp to the ground, I think at a point where she was trying to interfere with an interview

that Dame Jenny Murray was conducting in this very studio. Incredible times. Yeah, actually, it's the very first scene that I ever shot as Tracy. And the first person I met in the makeup room was Jenny Murray. What did she like? said well she was great I mean um I sort of when we actually did the scene I only saw her through the glass and I was kind of putting my Carol Vorderman sign up and uh yeah I was it yeah it was funny my my first scene was was a punch up with with Jessica Hines but when when we were in the makeup room she came through and

I said oh I'm Monica Dolan and I'm playing Tracy and she said I'm Jenny Murray and I'm playing Jenny Murray and kind of walked through yeah I mean some people would say she's been playing that part for a long time hope Jenny's listening she'll love she'll love that um we should yeah I'm sure it was it's such for those of us who work here, by the way, the building has never been more W1A than it is now. We've got new stickers, which I put up on my Twitter feed this morning. I know this is a very serious and difficult time for all of us, but the stickage at BBC Broadcasting House at the moment has to be seen to be believed.

We've got arrows heading in all directions, giveaway signs. All these things have just suddenly planted over the weekend. It's just extraordinary. Well, I think since W1A, sometimes you have memos going around saying this is a bit W1A, don't you? Well, we do. And I can speak as somebody who has been reprimanded in Test Card. So I have some authority here. What we're really here to talk about is how good you are as an actor.

Your new film is called Last Days of the Bagnoled Summer, and it's poignant in all sorts of ways, not least because it hints at our past when we could go out to the seaside and visit friends. I know. It's actually called Days of the Bagnoled Summer. Sorry. That's OK. But, yeah, I think...

I mean, it is about two people. It's about a mother and son, Ond ie, rwy'n credu, rwy'n credu bod yna ddwy bobl, mae'n ymwneud â mab a'r mab ac maen nhw'n cael eu cyd-dreidio i gyd am and the father lets him down at the last minute and so I play the single mother Sue and she's a librarian and they're stuck together for six weeks over the summer so I think it's a situation that people will be finding quite familiar and yeah, I suppose that people, there's so many people at places

that they didn't expect to be or hope to be. Yes, which is why this will ring true. I just want to play a quick clip. Here you are, you have been trying to encourage your son to get a part-time job over the course of the holidays. But here are Sue and Daniel. Any luck today, love? No. Why did you ask?

Everywhere. Did you try the newsagent? I said I tried everywhere. Were you wearing that T-shirt? Why? Perhaps it doesn't make a great first impression. You told me to see my CV and I did. You told me to hand it around town and I did.

Why are you still having a go at me? I'm not having a go. I'm just wondering whether you might have a better chance if you wore something that isn't quite so gruesome. That's discrimination. It isn't discrimination, Daniel. It's just common sense. If someone comes into your shop wearing a T-shirt with a man being electrocuted on it, you might wonder...

It's discrimination to judge someone based on their beliefs. Music is my religion. You're being facetious. I'm trying to help. Saying I look gruesome. I didn't say you looked gruesome. I said you're too... You know what? I'm too tired for this.

Go to bed, then. I will. Pizza's in the freezer. I'm not hungry. Well, there's a first time for everything. I have to say, a great deal of this film rang true in terms of attempting to open lines of communication do you remember being a teenager Monica how clearly uh yeah I think I don't think I was I think I was fairly unrebellious actually I was I was really lucky because I'd found sort of a a creative outlet with my acting and um I was I was in a little theatre group called Act One oedd yn ysgol. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, dwi'n meddwl, d And, you know, so. So, yeah, I think I think that Daniel's looking for an outlet all the way through and Sue's reassessing her life as well. So, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot of changes for both of them.

But I think when I was a teenager, I was pretty lucky really to to find what I wanted fairly early on. There are some brilliant aspects to this film, not least the fact that the music, much beloved of Daniel, his stuff is sort of thrash metal, isn't it? And there's quite a lot of it on the soundtrack, combined with wonderful shots of tranquil, suburban southern England. Yeah, that's what I think Simon's got really well. I think that our main soundtrack is Belle and Sebastian, ond rwy'n credu bod Simon wedi meddwl yn ddiweddar iawn, mae angen i ni fod yn rhan o'r farchnad yno hefyd,

i ymweld yn ôl Daniel. Mae gennych chi'r fisteau o fyn men a floatiau o mwll, ac wedyn mae gennych chi'r blaen o cerddoriaeth cerddoriaeth. bin men and kind of milk floats and then you've got this blast of angry music um because they're both the thing about them is that they're both introverts it's quite unusual to have a film where both of the main characters are introverts and um so there's a lot of show don't tell in it you know there's a lot of uh sort of visiting inside their heads in other ways which i think i think simon's done brilliantly actually yeah that's Simon Budd, who's the director, and of course was in the in-betweeners, so he knows about adolescent boys and how to portray them.

Yeah, he's an expert. Yeah, he certainly is. This film is, because we can't go to the cinema at the moment, it's available on all digital platforms, and yes, it is one that all the family would enjoy, certainly if there are adolescents in the house. Can we talk about... Yeah, I think so.

I mean, it's a coming-of-age story for both of them, you know. Yes. Oh, yes, because Sue's life does change too, we should say. Yeah, they both change each other. I mean, I think that she's... There are aspects of her teenage life that are very sort of trapped, and I think that by spending the summer with teenage Daniel, you know, they might not have surfaced otherwise. So there are pluses to being trapped with somebody.

Yeah, no, there are. Everybody is trapped at the moment in one way or another. Your lockdown experience has been just extraordinary in both terrible ways, because I know your brother died of Covid. He was only 56 and we should say it's very recent this. He died on Good Friday. So our sympathy to you and indeed to the rest of your family. Your mum is 86 and I gather that she's coped with it reasonably well, but of course you can't, well, you didn't see her, did you, until your brother's funeral? No, the funeral was on Thursday. I mean,

everything, obviously for anybody psychologically, it's really important to have a funeral. Na, y ffynhadau ar ddydd. Mae'r pethau, yn amlwg, ar gyfer unrhyw un, yn ddysgolol, mae'n bwysig iawn cael ffynhad. Ac hefyd, mae hi'n Irys, felly mae hi'n amod i gael... Yn y fan hon, maen nhw'n cael ffynhadau'n gyflym iawn. Wel, maen nhw'n gwneud hynny. Felly, rydych chi'n gwybod, fe fyddai'n cael nhw mewn ychydig o ddiwrnod. Felly, rydym ni wedi cymryd mis am y cyfrifiad oethaf. Felly, hyd yn oed yn ystod yr holl amser, nid oedden ni'n sicr o'r achos o'r diwethaf. Ac yn amlwg, i'r holl ddyluniau a'r dymor, i'r restr o'r byd, mae rhywun yn byw hyd yn oed cyn bod adnodd diwethaf, ac nid y gallwch chi sefydlu'r adnodd. Felly, felly, ie, rwy'n credu mai roedd yn ddiwrnodydd o'r wythnosau o'r wythnosau, roedd gennym ni'r ffyniad ar ôl ei marw, felly roedd yn ddawr. Roeddwn i'n fawr iawn o'r teulu. Roedd yn amlwg yn ddiddorol iawn.

Roedd pob un ohonynt yn y teulu wedi cymryd ychydig o gyfnod a'i gymryd i'w ffyniad ac ii ymrwymo i'r cyfle. Roedd fy mab yn darllen poe Christina Rossetti gwych a gwnaeth fy mab ddarllen ac rydw i wedi ddweud ychydig o geiriau am fy mab. Felly, ie, roedd yn wirioneddol, yn wirioneddol wych bod gyda'i gilydd. Ac hefyd, roedd fy mab, fy mab hwy, wedi cael ei blant, Ila, wedi bod yn fyw yn lockdown, felly roedd yn y tro cyntaf was born in lockdown so it was the first time that I met the baby afterwards in and in my mum's garden so in a socially distanced way yes oh god it's it's yeah it's been extreme yeah very very extreme I thought you know I thought I don't know everyone's experience of this thing is different but at the beginning I think I thought I was going to be a bit boring a bit inconvenient I'm I'm not bad I'm quite lucky at being but not being bored I don't get bored easily but yeah I didn't I didn't know it'd be life-changing and yeah it has been well yes it has and I guess

in a way um missing your brother will be a different sort of experience again because you won't be able to have gatherings where he would ordinarily have been present it's all so strange i think this might be true for a lot of people that while you're in lockdown you're sort of you know you might be seeing um you might be seeing the same people a lot or you might not be seeing anybody um so your sort of experience is that you're not really used to seeing people. So I don't think it's going to, I don't think it's really, really going to hit me and our family necessarily until we can be in family situations more. And, you know, he was he was a man of few words, but he was an incredibly powerful presence. And so I think that's when we'll really notice it.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much for talking to us. I know it's an extraordinary time for you. I know that obviously you're very keen to publicise your work and you definitely should, but you've just been... Yeah, I'm so thrilled about the film. I mean, Zoe, our publicity lady, very kindly sent a DVD to my mum and my mum's watched it about four times. I think it's really been cheering her up

so yeah that's good perhaps it does bring back memories to your mum of trying to communicate with you when you were a teenager Monica you never know I don't know I don't know no she's she said because I was obviously worried it would be tough what tough watch for her because of my brother but but that you know that that wasn't their relationship at all. Now, I think Sue and Daniel have quite a particular relationship. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thank you very much indeed for talking to us.

That is the actor Monica Dolan. The film is Days of the Bagnol Summer. And we should say that Daniel is played brilliantly by a young man called Earl Cave, who is Nick Cave's son. And that is an excellent film. And now, it's been ages since I last mentioned public toilets, or indeed toilets of any kind. So let's return to that subject. Coronavirus has, as we know, caused the closure of many public toilets.

And last week, I think in the Woman's Hour podcast, I read an email from Becky Farrar, who's able to join us now with her Woman's Hour coronavirus diary, a self-employed gardener. Becky, good morning to you. Hello. Now, this presents a real challenge to you because you go into other people's, well, I was going to say houses. You now walk through the house and straight into the garden? Well, in fact, I'm trying really hard not to go through the house and just to go to places where

you can just go round to the gardens, round the back and just to go to places where you can just go round to the gardens around the back and just avoid house contact altogether right and how is that is that normally possible um yeah just just about and there's a lot of people try to be very welcoming and in that respect lots of things haven't changed people are very nice and they want to welcome you into their homes and you just have to say no i can't do that I don't want to be the person that potentially brings this horrible thing to you so yeah go around the back and avoid the house and avoid the people and get on with the job but um it's very difficult for you uh obviously you need to hydrate yourself and now you can't go to the loo no um and that's been I think i said in my email it's been a really sort

of tricky balance um and the solution seems to be you just drink less during the day um try and hydrate myself at night and you just feel like i'm just i love my job but this isn't doing my body any good really well actually it's got so bad that you've you've had cystitis haven't you yes but it's like oversharing um sorry yes I wrote this is all I can expect isn't it um yes and and it's that's the fact I'm you know I'm in my 50s and and it's you and that's probably got an element to it as well. And I just wasn't able to go to the loo when I needed to go to the loo. So that's what happens.

Yeah. I didn't mean to make you overshare. And I should say, of course, there'll be very few of our listeners who haven't had cystitis, Becky. And I'm certainly happy to out myself as somebody who's also had it. Thank you very much. And it's very painful we need to we need to say that I mean just just an important point about in terms of mental health people's gardens if you're lucky enough to have one they have never been more important have they absolutely not and I think part of being able to go back to work and go and do some people's gardens who have been very much socially isolating vulnerable people shielding people um their gardens are important to them not just to be in but to be as they want them to be um to be the standards that they want them to be and

and for that sort of aspect of mental health it's really important as well yeah no it definitely is and you're doing a brilliant job however uncomfortable it might be at times at the moment but becky thank you very much it's a pleasure and thank you for talking about it that is our listener becky who is a gardener now um it is amazing how much interest there is in toilets i mean i i say that um look we all need them but i'm always amazed by whenever we mention them how much reaction we then get read a self-employed gardener on your show just now says Lynn I'm also a self-employed female gardener in my 50s my solution to this issue has been to get a sheepy container available online which works fine if I need the loo I just find a private space i.e. behind a shed in a garden and use the sheepy to wee. It gets

sealed and taken home to be emptied and cleaned at the end of every day. From Jem this is another of the benefits of having compost heaps in my clients gardeners. Yes Jem is also a gardener. I realise as a man it's easier for me but discreetly hovering over a bucket or a plastic trug is possible and certainly benefits the composting process and soil fertility. When I worked in local radio, I had a pretend gardener who used to come on to talk about his trug all the time. It's all a long time ago and I can't remember the name of my pretend gardener. I think it was something like Reg the Gardener or something highly imaginative like that. Iona says, with relation to your interview with the garden planner, she ought to consult the UK government guidelines. Self-employed workers like cleaners and plumbers, etc. can work in other people's houses and use the toilet with some guidelines observed.

It is mad to get cystitis or be dehydrated needlessly. Anonymous says, I work as a trainee gardener or I worked as a trainee gardener two summers ago for an all-male gardening firm. Going to the toilet during the working day was a real problem. I learned to find places in large properties with big gardens where there was no choice but to go in the undergrowth. Sometimes the person I was working with might offer to take me to a petrol station toilet, but often they wouldn't be en route from job to job, so we just weren't able to. I got so used to being able to potter off in overgrown flowerbeds

when gardening in smaller to normal houses, I'd have to remind myself not to go behind the shed, forgetting where I was, or where they had a neighbour or a colleague who could see. One of my clearest memories was finding the one optimum spot in a bigger property where I took the risk of flashing a neighbouring farm from behind through a patch hedgerow, or risked the run of a main road and continuous traffic, seeing me weeing without embarrassment in a roadside garden field or meadow

um okay um yes i don't know what to say about that it's it's um fertile territory this trish says i'm from north yorkshire today's article about a gardener who advised drinking less well she didn't advise it she just said sometimes she had to do it. It's very dangerous, especially in the hot weather. My gardener, Gemma, has bought a portable potty. She brings it with her and puts it in the garage. When she uses it, she closes the garage. It's much more sensible than giving yourself cystitis. And so say all of us. I think I might have a T-shirt made or perhaps write one of my seminal poetic works about this. Now, on to the conversation we had about fertility treatment and infertility at this time. Anonymous says it's been interesting listening to the individuals struggling with infertility.

They have our full and total sympathy. But please do remember there is another group of people. Sadly, my husband and I are in the group who tried fertility treatment a number of times and it didn't work. We have the reminders all around us every day with no chance of that ever changing. We have adopted our wonderful son who would never be without, but there is still a hole um thank you for that and from a listener i don't need to name her i had five rounds of ivf then my final chance to try

it was lost to me when the ash cloud grounded all flights thank you for talking about this i still have days of misery from never having a child i'm so so sorry. And yeah, I really do. I really do understand that that must have been dreadful. And this is important, actually, from Louise. Jane just referred to infertility treatment this morning. And I've heard this on Woman's Hour before. It's insensitive for a programme that is supposedly sympathetic to women's issues to use this term. The industry uses the positive term fertility treatment. It would be a great leap forward if a banner programme like Women's Hour could promote the use of careful terminology which doesn't denigrate the people involved who are often already distressed and emotionally

worn down. Louise, you are quite right, quite right, and I'm sorry, it was just a semantic error on my part and I shouldn't have done it. So I'll remember not to do that in the future. Tomorrow, Florence Given, who's huge on Instagram, over 400,000 followers. She's a feminist illustrator. She's written a book called

Women Don't Owe You Pretty. She's on tomorrow. So too is the actor Rosamund Pike, who's talking about her biopic of Marie Curie. That's all tomorrow on the program and the podcast. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the

deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.