Woman's Hour - Festive drinks, Post-partum psychosis, Outliving your mum.

Episode Date: December 4, 2020

Sandrae Lawrence from the Cocktail Lovers Magazine stirs up some Christmas spirit in the Woman's Hour studio with a selection of festive drinks ideas. She'll be preparing traditional Snowballs and telling us about wassails to warm your guests with whilst entertaining outdoors. As Hollyoaks tackles the issue of post partum psychosis we hear from Hannah Bissett from Action on Post-partum Psychosis and Dr Ayesha Rahim, who's a perinatal psychiatrist at Lancashire and South Cumbria NHS Foundation Trust and we hear Titania's story about Outliving her mum. Presented by Jane Garvey Produced by Lisa Jenkinson

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. It's the Woman's Hour podcast. It's Friday the 4th of December 2020. Hello, good morning. We're going to talk about a storyline in the very innovative soap Hollyoaks this morning. They have a character who is going, like next week in fact, to develop postpartum psychosis. She's in the process of going through it at the moment but next week viewers will find out that that is what liberty has so we'll talk

about that um we'll also discuss margaret thatcher's statue in her hometown of grantham um we're always never that far away from a controversy or two about a woman's statue and there's another one about this one so that that's another topic for the programme today. But we're starting, of course we are, with cocktails. It's the Christmas party season. Well, if you could have a Christmas party, we'd be approaching the Christmas party season. And I always used to think I didn't like Christmas parties,

but now I can't go to one. I'm actually very nostalgic. We can still talk about safe, socially distanced cocktails, though, at this happy time of year. And this morning in the actual company, I'm delighted to say, of Sandra Lawrence from the Cocktail Lovers magazine. Sandra, good morning to you. Good morning. It's lovely to be here. Well, it is lovely, isn't it, to have you in the studio. I know you're going to prepare a drink for me, which will be delivered to me in a sanitised fashion. So I'm looking forward to it enormously. I guess, actually,

for somebody in your line of work, hospitality industry, it's been grim, hasn't it? It really has. And it's for the bars in particular because they've been closed. Luckily, opened again this week, but it has been very difficult. And also, it always seems that there's obstacles coming up in the way. So I would say to everybody, please support your local bars. Yeah. And restaurants take away. And restaurants take away. And restaurants, absolutely. Do what you can, if you can, over the next couple of weeks.

So your love of cocktails, I think it's all started with a man. So many things do, I think, Sandra. Tell us how you met him and what happened. Well, my husband now, my husband, when we were dating, he used to take me out to cocktail bars because he loves cocktails. He loved the glamour of cocktails. I'd liked to drink, but I was more of a champagne and wine kind of girl. But he introduced me to the beauty of cocktails and actually the crafting of cocktails. Because I

think, like a lot of people, I thought the cocktails were just something that were put together. I didn't think about the history, the artistry, the geography, all kinds of things that go into it with these wonderful chefs, almost bar chefs. So that got me interested in cocktails. And we started a blog, first of all, just talking about our passions and telling people where we used to go. And then we set up a magazine bit crazy but we

decided that we wanted to do to have a magazine for people like us that were passionate about cocktails but where we could find all of the things that were going on around the world lovely okay well christmas cocktails is one of our topics today um you're going to make or you have already made um a hot cocktail what's this a hot toddy um because we always think of christmas as mulled wines and mulled wines lovely though they are they can be a bit cloying but the the history of mulling drinks goes back quite a long way to the first mention of a wassail goes back to Anglo-Saxon times, but it's become a popular thing from medieval times

and up to the current day of mulling drinks and adding spices and serving them warm. So what I've brought for you today is a non-alcoholic version because I appreciate it's 10 o'clock in the morning. And I'm working, apparently. But you can still make this fun. And also it's a good thing that you can make up as you go, just have gently heated,

but also you can take it out for socially distanced walks, to meet up with friends and just have something warming and gorgeous and spiced. Okay, well, if you can pour me my, and it is non-alcoholic, this version, that would be great. Pour me my drink. And just very briefly, if you can pour me my... It is non-alcoholic, this version. That would be great. Pour me my drink. And just very briefly, if you just tell us what's in this.

I'm sure we'll put the recipe on the Woman's Hour website a little bit later. But what's in here? So we've got hot apple juice, cloudy apple juice, and spices. So cinnamon, nutmeg, allspice, star anise, orange slices. Oh, lovely. That's a nice touch. They are things of beauty cocktails aren't they? They are and the garnish is very much important and also the aroma because we actually taste

with our eyes and smell everything it's all associated so to have something beautiful to drink and to look at enhances the experience so this is your hot mould. That'd be great if that could be brought over that would be absolutely fantastic and a little mince pie to go with crikey right okay thanks very much um it's a little bit early for the pie but i'll certainly

give the cocktail a whirl thank you right okay oh it's beautiful and what have you this these um glass what are they called i always forget what these cocktail things are called well this is actually from a company called tipsy Tea Cups and they have tea cups placed on beautiful cocktail stems so it just makes your tea a lot more elegant. Is that too sweet?

It's got a gentle kick to it but it's lovely. The thing is this one's non-alcoholic but you can, if you want to have a bit more punch, you can have some cider in there or add a bit of brandy or rum. Right. Brandy would be lovely. Yeah. OK. Well, Sandra's hanging around and she'll talk to us a little bit later. We're going to investigate the snowball, which apparently is back.

And I was going to start the programme by saying I certainly brought a few of those back in the 1980s, but it's been a while. So we'll revisit the snowball in a more responsible fashion with Sandra a little later. And if you have any memories of cocktails, your Christmas favourites, let us know. We are so contactable these days on social media at BBC Women's Hour.

That's your Twitter and your Instagram. And of course you can text us too. The number there is 84844. 84844. Now, a current storyline in the soap Hollyoaks features a character called Liberty, who had a baby a couple of months ago. And she's now struggling with, well, we don't quite know what,

but a form of mental illness. And next week on the programme, it will be revealed that she actually has postpartum psychosis, which is not as uncommon as you might think. Josie Day is one of the producers of Hollyoaks. Hannah Bissett is from the charity Action on Postpartum Psychosis. And Dr Aisha Rahim is a consultant perinatal psychiatrist at Lanx and South Cumbria NHS Foundation Trust.

So, Josie, this would not really seem to be the stuff of soap. So why is Hollyoaks doing it? Well, we really love our social issue stories and our audiences really love them, too. And when we have our storyline conference every month, the writers will bring in personal stories of things that are happening to their families or friends or neighbours that they want to tell those stories about. And this story was on the table, I think,

for a couple of years. And then the situation between Liberty and her sister, Sienna, it just felt like the right story to do for these characters. Yeah, we should say that Liberty's storyline, her set of circumstances are not usual. She is having a baby for her sister and the birth was also very, very stressful.

Yeah, it was a traumatic birth and Liberty herself is quite an eccentric character. She's quite a heightened person so I think that means that it was harder for the characters around her to diagnose to see that she was suffering in a way where they missed some of the signals that she was giving. I see got you okay um Dr Rahim I did say that postpartum psychosis was not as uncommon as some people might think. It's when you tell me how common is it? So usually the figure that's quoted is one to two per every thousand births.

So really, it's not that uncommon at all. And where does postnatal depression stop and postpartum psychosis begin? So I think we've all heard about baby blues haven't we and that can occur within the first week or so and a bit down that's actually pretty normal it's a pretty normal experience to um feel some emotional disruption after you've given birth it's a major life-changing event however postpartum psychosis is a different entity and it's one that we you take sorry yeah we take seriously. It does happen. Sorry.

Yeah, we take everything seriously, of course. Postpartum psychosis in particular is an emergency condition that needs rapid treatment. So there are some things that distinguish that between baby blues and even postpartum depression. Okay. The line to you isn't the best, so I just want to be clear that listeners understand

what it is they need to watch out for because, truth be told, if you you've never had a baby before you don't know what's normal and what isn't so can you pin down something that would point to postpartum psychosis rather than postnatal depression? Yes so it does have a set of specific symptoms that come along with postpartum psychosis so we're talking about things like hallucinations and hearing things other people aren't able to see or hear even then next to you and so you might hear a voice for example uh something of that nature you might also experience quite extremes of moods so feeling very depressed or the polar opposite feeling very elated in mood. So your mood can swing between two extremes and it's more than the usual happiness that you might experience. But there's also another aspect of postpartum psychosis, which is developing some unusual thought processes.

So you might develop suspicious thoughts or odd beliefs that might be character as a bit paranoid or suspicious for example. Right okay um Hannah you had a postpartum psychosis after your first child what what's really simply what happened to you? Yeah so I had my first son in 2009 and I didn't have a very straightforward birth but actually it was when I went home that things things just didn't really go well. And some of the things that Dr. Rahim mentioned there, those unusual thoughts, my mind was going a million miles an hour. I couldn't order words into sentences. I was acting really, really differently, really out of character at times. But then other times I was absolutely fine. And I think the big thing was I didn't actually realise there was anything wrong.

I didn't accept, I didn't understand that I was unwell. And of course, it was your first baby. You didn't know any different, did you? No, I didn't. And I think that's a really hard thing for women and for those around them, for family members, knowing what to expect. It's to expect the unexpected in some ways. But actually, this was very unusual. And I think people around me knew that I wasn't acting at all in any kind of normal way. And they were very key then in being able to get me some help. How many weeks went by, Hannah Hannah before you got that help? So for me it was probably within a couple of weeks although I did see a couple of different doctors, a

psychiatrist, midwives were really really good at picking up those early signs and symptoms and I was I was hospitalised within a couple of weeks. And you were hospitalised with your baby, with your son? Sadly, no. Initially, I was on a general psychiatric ward without my baby. So whilst I was then in a place to get treatment, I actually, being separated from him was the worst thing that probably could have happened to me at that point. Yes. What happened to your son at that time? He was at home with my husband, he was safe but I think a lot of my paranoid thoughts, a lot of my delusions were that there was something wrong with my son and perhaps being then apart from him obviously did me no good

so I was very fortunate later to be transferred to a mother and baby unit and to be reunited with my son in a hospital setting, but actually being treated alongside him and being able to be reunited and just be that family unit, the two of us together. I can imagine, yes, that that separation must have been absolutely dire. Aisha, Hannah shouldn't have had to put up with that, should she? Would that normally go on, that a woman would be taken to hospital without the baby? That's right. So what we've seen in the last couple of years is some inward investment to perinatal mental health services, both in the community and the development of some new mother and baby units. So those are the hospitals where a mum who's just had a baby or is in the latter stages of pregnancy can come into hospital to receive mental health care and bring baby with her.

Because it's so important that we preserve that bond between mum and baby particularly in the early days so it's very sad that Hannah didn't have that experience when she was going through her difficulties but we're hoping that for women who experience this now this the country is in a much better position but there's still lots of work to be done to ensure that every woman has access to a mother and baby unit who needs it and close by to her home. Right. So in some cases, a woman might develop symptoms before she's had the baby. Did I hear you right there? Sometimes people do develop symptoms with mental health during pregnancy as well. So that's why perinatal mental health care starts even before you are trying for a baby as well because there may be women who have existing mental health conditions that are very serious like bipolar disorder for

example and so for women in that category who are at that risk of developing postpartum psychosis we want to support them before they even start planning their pregnancy and talk about things like medication and put support in place before they need it as a symptom. Right. Hannah, tell us about your time in hospital then. You were there for actually for quite a while. What happened during that time? So initially I was on that general psychiatric ward without my baby and I don't remember the time there. Like you said, sort of quite upsetting, quite traumatic really for everybody.

But I did get to a mother and baby unit for the latter part of my treatment and really that was an amazing place to allow me to have that time with my son as well as receiving the medication the treatment that i needed the staff there they understood postpartum psychosis they were able to support me to be a mum as well as somebody who was being treated for a very severe mental health episode and and really it was just a safe space um to then start my recovery to to start to feel better to start to feel me again I think my illness it felt certainly when I look back now, it felt like being shattered into millions of tiny pieces and piecing that back together was

something that the staff in hospital did with me over that time. Was it something that you were able to discuss, not just with your partner, but with other relatives and friends? Or was there an element of people just being baffled by what you were going through? Well, nobody had heard of postpartum psychosis in my family, in my friends, before it happened to us. So it was something that at the time, I think people weren't always sure how to talk about. But certainly since time has gone on, I think being able to have those conversations

is really important because there is an awful lot of stigma around mental health generally but also specifically the word psychosis i think it's a scary word it's a it's a scary thing to happen but talking is is something that we really valued and with other women who've who've been through it we do a lot of that at the charity action on Postpartum Psychosis providing that peer support to women and their families. And when you went on to have another child what happened then? Yes so I had my youngest son in 2013 and unfortunately as Dr Rahim mentioned perinatal services where I live in North Yorkshire were still not really in existence. I had a great midwife, a fantastic GP. I did see somebody in the mental health team, but really quite late in pregnancy because I was well. I was one of the 50% of women

that had never been unwell before my postpartum psychosis and I didn't have any further episodes. But I did put sort of plans in place of what might happen, what we wanted to happen if I was to become unwell again. And the real positive out of it is that I stayed well and I didn't have any further episodes with my mental health. I'm just looking at Twitter and a listener has asked about going ahead and deciding to have another baby. Was it a difficult decision to make, Hannah, bearing in mind what had happened to you? It's a very personal decision and what was right for us and our family will not be the right thing for everybody out there. But I think we'd always thought we would have two children. So it felt like something that we wanted to do and of course it was a worrying time but actually now things would be different there would be a perinatal team who could support

me with that decision and again having the history was the greatest risk element for me but it did turn out well in the end. And i know that you've obviously helped people at holly oaks with this storyline to anyone who says i don't want stuff like this cluttering up my tea time soap um what would you say oh um i think we have to talk about these things yeah they are very scary but it is much more terrifying and perhaps not for the mum going through it at a time but for those around her i'm sure not to not know what the illness is but actually that it is very treatable and that you know people can get better they can go on to to be that mum that they've always wanted to be to be that woman they've always you know been and will get back to

thank you i really appreciate you talking so frankly this morning. Hannah Bissett from the charity Action on Postpartum Psychosis. And you also heard from Josie Day, who produces On Hollyoaks, and Dr Aisha Rahim, consultant perinatal psychiatrist. Are your thoughts on that? Perhaps your own experiences? And thank goodness we are now at least able to talk about this stuff.

You can email the programme, of course, via the website if you have a longer story to tell on that challenging subject, let's face it. Now, the three-metre statue of Margaret Thatcher, due to go up in Grantham, her hometown in Lincolnshire, next year, with a £100,000 unveiling ceremony, we're told, underwritten by the council, although there are high hopes that they'll get their money back from various people donating

cash. Amanda Shonut is Director of Fundraising for Grantham's Museum, which is run by the Grantham Community Heritage Association. Amanda, good morning to you. Hi there, good morning. I suppose it was bound to happen, wasn't it, that there would be a lot of talk about a statue, the statue of Margaret Thatcher. You must have been expecting it all, really. It's happened before and I dare say it'll happen again. Yes. Nearer the time that the unveiling is due to take place.

We certainly do expect it, but we embrace it because any conversation about anything of this nature is good to have. I encourage debate and I'm happy that the debate's being had. Right. Now, this was the statue that could have gone up in Parliament Square in London. It was decided against that. So I gather Grantham was offered it. Is that right? My understanding of it is that there was a conversation had between people within the group that decided they wanted a statue and the public memorials trust. And after conversation and deciding whether it could go ahead, we decided to proceed with it and submitted plans to the council for the proposed statue to take place.

Now, clearly she is Grantham's most famous. Well, is she most famous ever resident? Certainly most famous daughter. I don't think anyone would disagree with that, would they? Well, I think we can argue there's a few more. I mean, obviously, the ones that spring to mind, you know, you've got Mr. Tolmash, who was a very prominent politician. There's also, of course, Isaac Newton. But one of my own personal favourites is PC Edith Smith, who was, of course, the first warranted female police officer. And she was warranted for Grantham Police. So I think we can say there's a few people that come from Grantham that are worth shouting about.

Margaret's definitely one of the most prominent. Of course, you're speaking up very passionately there for Grantham and who can blame you? But I think you said, I mean, Tolmarsh, with the greatest respect to Tolmarsh, he was, I think, a Liberal MP. Was he an MP for over 40 years? I mean, that's incredible. His statue's up already, isn't it? It is, yeah, along with Isaac Newton's statue. So Margaret will be in good company when she's finally placed on the Green. Right. And she's going to be in the same place as them. Between them or next to them? How's it going to work?

Between them, central. Tolmarsh is down at the bottom end, just outside the Wetherspoons pub that we all know is actually named after him. And then, of course, you've got Isaac Newton directly opposite the Civic Centre. So she'll be in the middle. Right. And it is interesting. I was looking in a rather nerdy way at the Tolmarsh statue earlier this morning.

And the inscription says, erected in 1891 by the friends who revered his memory, irrespective of political opinions. So there you go. That's quite significant, isn't it? Because there are plenty of voices, we believe, in Grantham and elsewhere who don't want a statue of Margaret Thatcher. What do you say to them? Well, as I said, I welcome the debate. But I think for me, i've been involved in politics myself for a good number of years it's difficult for women to be involved in politics at any time

i think it would have been even harder for her than it is for us now but i think it's important to recognize that by installing the statue you're giving a place for women in politics and allowing them to have a voice and and indeed showing what you can achieve in politics. So for me, having that statue installed is quite an important thing. It's about giving women a place in the political arena and what you can achieve if you do. Yes. Do people in Grantham still talk a lot about Margaret Thatcher? Does her reputation and the memory of her, does it overshadow the place slightly? I wouldn't say it overshadows it. I think my own personal experience, and of course I can only go off my own personal experiences, the years that I've been working in Grantham at

the museum, there is a divide. I can't dispute that, but it's a healthy debate. I think there's as many people for the statue being in place as there are those being against the statue being in place. She certainly does create debate and we enjoy that debate. I think anybody, whichever side of the divide you're on, will say that they enjoy the debate. So do you believe that the statue should be or will have to be protected from people who say they're going to protest against it? Talk of egg throwing, for example. Yes, I've heard about that. There was a Facebook page set up, I believe. I mean, there is, of course, a risk that there's going to be some sort of vandalism.

There has, of course, been vandalism with other statues elsewhere in the UK, which is a great shame. I would like to think that people could be a bit more mature and grown up about it and not resort to things such as that. But, of course, it's something that we do have to take into consideration and indeed was taken into consideration when the proposals were put forward but in the end we decided the council decided that it was best to have the statue it was good for the community good for the area and let's not forget you know I work for the museum We've got a responsibility to make sure

that all of Grantham's heritage is reflected, good and bad. And so that, again, for another reason, is probably why the statue was approved because she is part of Grantham's history. Well, absolutely. Love her or hate her. No arguing with that. And we should say a couple of Fridays ago,

we were talking about the, I think it was Fridays ago, they emerge into one the weeks at the moment, don't they? But the Mary Wollstonecraft statue in London, a lot of talk about that. And of course, the figure, and it isn't Mary Wollstonecraft, but the figure is naked. Now, there's none of that malarkey going on with the Margaret Thatcher statue. This is Margaret Thatcher in her pomp wearing, what is she wearing? She's wearing her robes for the House of Lords. It's a very fine statue,

actually. I think it's a very good likeness of her. I'm very fond of it already. I can't wait to see it in place. Great. Well, thank you very much. Good to hear the positivity in your voice there about that statue of Margaret Thatcher in Grantham, which, as Amanda was illustrating, she's always going to be a polarising figure. has people who don't like her people who still love her but the statue going up in Grantham her hometown next year we're told now if you listen to the archers and it shouldn't really be an if should it

because you should listen to the archers it's just part of your general education I've always said so it sort of seeps into your bones the archers you find out you are listening even though you thought you weren't anyway the brilliant brilliant local gossip bones, the archers. You find out you are listening, even though you thought you weren't. Anyway, the brilliant, brilliant local gossip and busybody Susan Carter has recently had what you might loosely call a broadcasting career. She's been working in quite a high profile show at Radio

Borsetshire, but she has just found it overwhelming the last couple of months. And here this week, she told her husband, Neil, that she's really going to have to leave. Now, I've loved every minute of my radio show, but it's been very time-consuming. Susan, I've been really proud of you. Oh, thanks, love. That means a lot to me. But with so much else going on, I think it might be for the best. I can't be an end to Susan's broadcasting career, can I?

I'm going to make a quick call to the boss of Woman's Hour. I can still pull a few strings around here. Well, I'm just going to leave it there for the time being, but do you think Susan Carter could be, should be, would be the ideal person to present Women's Hour in the New Year alongside Emma Barnett? If you have any thoughts on that, at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email the programme via our website. You can text us 84844. I've got to be honest, I don't think she was great on Radio Borsetshire, but maybe it just wasn't the right platform for her. There is also a really brilliant Woman's Hour New Year's Day programme all about the women of the Archers, which if you, like me, are a fully paid up Archers fan, you will love.

So who can't wait for 2021 in any number of ways? That's our first programme of 2021, all about the Archers here on Woman's Hour. Now, last week, I think it was actually, we played out a feature which I thought was brilliant about a woman who had reached the age that her mum had died. And she had all sorts of quite surprising thoughts around that moment in her life, thoughts that she hadn't really been expecting. Well, here's another of those conversations involving our reporter, Jo Morris. This is a difficult subject to approach, of course. And anyway, who would you tell if you were having these emotions? Jo met Tichana and asked to see a photograph of her mum, Beverly. I found one. I don't have very many. I just have one. This is my mum. She has brown eyes.

She has a nose stud, which is cool. Quite unusual for the 80s, a nose stud, isn't it? Yeah, I told you she was cool. Those eyebrows that you would paint them on and draw them on, very Dallas or dynasty. She had those and bright red lips. And how old is she in this photo? I think she's about 44.

So your age? Yeah, she's in her 40s, yeah. She was stunning. All the boys used to fancy her. They were friends? Boys on the street. Like, I grew up in Harlesden. So she's driving through Harlesden with the, like, convertible roof down

and all the men's heads are just whipping left, right? Yeah. So can you tell me a bit about your own situation? I lived with my grandparents until I was 12 and my grandma died from non-smokers lung cancer. And then I went to live with my mum, which was obviously quite difficult. And then when I was 29,

my mum died from lung cancer as well. And my nan was 64 when she died. And my mum was 54 when she died. And I'm 44. I like numbers and patterns, so there's a thing there, yeah. Is this a pattern? Is this now my time? I'm 44, so is that it? What did you think when you heard our call-out

for women coming up to the age of when their mum died? I suppose I thought, actually, that could be me. That actually is me. Are there others like me? Light bulb moment, really, yeah. In what way? It's there in your mind that you are approaching the age

that your mother died or your grandma died. It's kind of an insane thought, so you kind of keep it or your grandma died it's kind of an insane thought so you kind of keep it in your head because it's wrong so then you hear it and you're like there are others there are others there are others has this feeling got worse as you've got older as you get nearer to the age it has so you're 44 i am so you've got a way to go till you get to 54? I do, yes. Does it feel like that? 54 is not far away.

But I keep telling myself not, don't be so silly. Don't think like that. You have to be positive. You want to make sure that you are doing everything that you can to live as long as you can because you want to make sure that you are doing everything that you can to live as long as you can because you want to see your grandchildren and you want to be around as long as you can so you you don't want to think like that but then it's like there's two things on your shoulders and one saying be sensible and be positive and the other one saying but you know you're kind of

showing certain signs you do get pneumonia a lot and you get a lot of lung infections and isn't that what happened to your mum when she was your age and then you're thinking no I'm not going to do it Have you spoken to anyone about this before Titania? I suppose my husband would be someone that I

but then I don't want to worry him so I don't really say so much about it. I went through this phase where after my mum died, I was speaking to the doctor and I was like, oh, it's not genetic. It's not genetic that we know of. They always like to add that bit, that we know of. But we'll keep an eye on you just in case. Pre-COVID, it would just be ever-present in the back of my mind,

whereas at the moment it's very much in the forefront. I think I had Covid, which was really quite an experience. It was experiencing what I'd seen my mum die from and my grandmother die from, not being able to breathe. It was mind blowing. So your nan brought you up for the first 12 years of your life? Yeah. And you called her your...? I called her my mum. Some of my siblings were there as well, but some were in care, but some were there as well. And you thought of her as your mum, did you, at that time?

Yeah, I called her Mummy, although everyone called her Mummy. Did they? All the friends and neighbours and stuff? All the friends, neighbours, you know, the children on the street and cousins and everyone. What was she like? She was very, very bubbly, really happy. Unless she was shouting at you. She came from Jamaica, so she had the Jamaican accent.

You just do what she says. I was quite a good child. Why didn't your mum bring you up? She was just not able to. I don't think she was able to cope with us. Then when my nan died, we all had to go somewhere, so we had to work out who was going where. And I ended up going with my mum.

She was a party girl, so she was very cool. She had a cool job and she hung out with my mum. She was a party girl, so she was very cool, like she had a cool job and she hung out with cool people. She would be going to America or hanging out with Luther Vandross or doing something cool. She had parties, not Tupperware parties, like cool parties. Not Tupperware parties? Everyone else's mum were doing Tupperware parties or Avon parties and my mum was having like a party party. Did you call your mum mum? No, I called her Beverly. My background and my childhood was quite complex. I would have been one of those children in

the class that had, you know, special circumstances. All the questions, why do you call your mum Beverly? And who's that lady? That doesn't look like your mum because I've seen my nan once a bit older. But I had a mum and then she died and then I had another mum and then she died. So, yeah, twice.

Or you could say I had two chances. I was lucky enough to have another mum. Then after the first one died. Can you take me back to a happy place with your mum or a really good memory? My mum loved music and she particularly loved Luther Vandross and so when she was really ill we had a party here. I think it was my son's first Holy Communion but there was DJs in the garden and we had a Luther Vandross song came on. Now she could barely stand up up she died not too long afterwards this um song never

too much by luther van dross never too much never too much but it came on i love it it's just such a tune she used all of her strength to get out of that chair and my auntie marcia helped her she got out of the chair and she danced to that song. And I mean, it literally exhausted her. You could see, but there was no way she was going to have that song on in the garden and not going to get up and dance. I'm going to play my mum's song. Luther Vandross, Never Too Much. Such a tune.

It was such a nice memory. You're looking at her when you talk about her. Yeah, I thought, shall I put it there? Is that a bit weird that it's on the sofa? Very positive. Like, she wouldn't think, oh, I'm dying. She wouldn't say that. She'd say, although she would use her cancer to get things.

Like, she'd push to the front of the queue because she'd had cancer and she would tell everyone in the queue. We'd do that all the time. Like, where do you mean? What sort of places? Sainsbury's. Sainsbury's? Sorry, I have cancer. She's like, you've got to make a noise to fit, haven't you?

She said, there's not many perks. She said, there's not many perks. That's what she said, there's not many perks, yeah. So when you look in the mirror, do you see your mum? I wish. Oh, my God, have you seen this photo do you think you're doing things differently to her or have you done things differently yeah so she didn't finish her university so she wanted me to do that and do masters or she wanted me to do that she wanted me to buy a flat or a home, I've done that. She wanted me to not have four kids with four different men, so I didn't do that.

She was really keen that we put the kids first. You know, when my nan died, she was in bed for, God, over a year. And I think she had to sort of come to terms with some of the decisions that she made with her children and with her just generally, and I think she found that quite difficult. She would always say, make sure you look after the kids, they come first. Has it affected decisions you've made about your life? I don't have a pension.

I don't know any women in my family who've lived long enough to claim a pension. So I'm not going to do my pension. I'm going to opt out. Again, it's morbid, I know that, but I could also just be excusing my frivolity. You don't fancy saving any money. But, yeah. No, but seriously, was that a conscious decision you made, not to have a pension?

Yeah, I mean, I think the reasons for not having a pension are many, but what I will say is I don't have any old people in my family, really. So you're glad you've spoken about it? I am, actually. I am really glad because, you know, I said before that I thought I was the only person. I thought it was an irrational fear that had to be silenced and ignored and just tidied away somewhere safe and glass half full and all that fine you can have fears and worries and concerns and speaking it doesn't

make it true so how will you spend your 54th birthday to tanya it's going to be a party like a wholesome party not a normal party it's going to be a party. Like a Harleson party. Not a normal party, it's going to be a Harleson party. It's going to be sound systems and sequence. Wow. I love that. I love that song so much.

That was Titania talking to our reporter, Jo Morris. I love that song so much That was Titania talking to our reporter Jo Morris I love those conversations I know lots of you find them interesting as well So into the cocktail lounge we'll go but I think I should just mention Anne Holmes who says I think Susan you'll find Jane was let go from her programme on Radio Borsetshire

she's putting a somewhat positive spin on it heaven forbid she should end up on Woman's Hour well you know you don't know. You've got to give everybody a chance. Sandra Lawrence of the Cocktail Lovers magazine is busy making me... Well, this is because the snowball... Maybe some would say horrifically, but the snowball is back, Sandra.

Well, everything retro is always back. And I think that the fact that this is kitsch, it's fun, it's frivolous, it's light, it's frothy, I think that the fact that this is kitsch it's fun it's frivolous it's light it's frothy I think particularly at this time of year and particularly after the year that we've had it's important that we have a bit of fun so snowball it is it's also very low in ABV what does that mean it's practically a health drink sorry it's practically a health drink is that what you're saying I would never say that it's got a health drink. Sorry? It's practically a health drink. Is that what you're saying? I would never say that. No, okay.

It's got a little bit of alcohol, so just to get you a little bit happy. Yes. But it's not too cloying or pungent, so... You can actually feel the thickness, hear the thickness of that slooping into the champagne flute. You can easily make this

just by adding the ingredients dry into your glass. But I wanted to make this a little bit special. Lovely. In a champagne flute. But also, if you do want some more booze in it, you can add a tot of brandy. Or top it up, instead of lemonade, top it up with champagne, which makes it really fantastic. It's worth saying, I am recording Weekend Woman's Hour a little bit later this morning, so we don't want to go too over the top and actually and sandra you are i know

you're very responsible about drinking absolutely and and the thing is most people do go a bit hard on the drinks on christmas day but i'd say definitely pace yourself and enjoy it's got a cocktail cherry on top cocktail cherries are just just the shimmer of a cocktail cherry brings back all the magic of the 70s doesn't it absolutely and that's what i'm saying it's about fun but responsible fun there is still a little bit of alcohol in there but it's not as heavy as a martini or something like that so the color is joy yes you've got that lovely froth on it and you've got a cocktail cherry what could be better very little there are a few things but i can't think of them right now or at least i certainly couldn't say them so mulled fizz is something else that i think you've been doing a lot of recently yeah well it takes all of the elements of the um christmas

flavors that we like so lots of spices we've got some port in there clementine juice, a lovely spice mix that you make up yourself, and then have this all ready in the fridge, ready to go. And then when your guests, if you're allowed guests over Christmas, once they come, just pour it in the glass and top it up with champagne, and it's absolutely delicious. I've got to say, I suppose, thinking about it with my ultra-responsible head on, and actually we're so close to the end of this nightmare that we do need to be responsible. I the more you drink the more likely you are

to mingle in a way that wouldn't be sensible this christmas so keep an eye on it everybody i guess absolutely so yes you might start your day with a bucks fears or have something at lunch but don't keep going at it all throughout the day just drink responsibly enjoy it there's some wonderful cocktails out there that you can make yourself or you can buy in kits from a lot of bartenders that are selling their own cocktail kits but have some fun and do some things at home and the non-alcoholic cocktail you made for me at the start of the program that was lovely and i think we had a couple of texts and i understand this from people who don't drink anymore because they don't want to drink um there are non-alcoholic brilliant drinks out there that you can try they're absolutely We had a couple of texts, and I understand this from people who don't drink anymore because they don't want to drink.

There are non-alcoholic, brilliant drinks out there that you can try. There are absolutely. More than ever, actually. Yeah, and you can do things yourself at home. But one of the ones that I really like is called Acorn, and they do something called Acorn Dry. Just use that with some soda. And even if you do drink alcohol and you like the taste of alcohol, this actually has lots of bitterness and complexity that you'll really enjoy. That was cocktail maker Sandra Lawrence.

And I hope if you go to the Woman's Hour website, you will find her recipes, including for the non-alcoholic cocktail. I'm bigging up non-alcoholic cocktails because in truth, actually, I don't drink much. I did enjoy that snowball though it was just the addition of the brandy that worked a treat on the subject of cocktails

my mum used to love an avocad at Christmas and so a snowball became a regular for us mum, me and my sister says this emailer however I find it a bit too sweet and I've adapted the recipe to avocad dry ginger ale quantities to taste and a squeeze of fresh lime juice

it's delicious, now me and my sister Lynn observe that tradition faithfully every single year and a visit to each other's houses will always include a shopping bag with all the ingredients thank you to that listener, sorry we don't have your name we've got your sister's name but not yours so

I'm sure you know who you are. Another one here, tweet from Nuzjunkie. Cocktails are wonderful, but if you're short on energy and time, rum chatter is Christmas in a bottle. Okay. From Isabel, try a snowball mixed with stout to make a cocktail called Jake. It's absolutely delicious.

Yeah, I'm not sure quite how I'd fare, in all honesty, after having one of those. Will Susan Carter present Woman's Hour? Well, I think it's a wonderful idea, says this listener. She can hold Emma Barnett's hand and guide her gently through this new experience. I'm 73 and I've listened to The Archer since I was a small child. I heard the episode where Grace Archer died in the stable

fire. Yes, that was, of course, famously on the night that ITV started, wasn't it? The BBC knows what it's doing. I heard the episode where Grace Archer died. Gwen Berryman, the actress who played Doris Archer, was a friend of my godmother, hence the family's interest. We lived on a farm in County Wicklow in Ireland and Gwen came to see us. Sitting outside on the lawn, having afternoon tea, she got really nervous as our Jersey cows filed past on their way to be milked. It rather spoilt the image of Doris, the farmer's wife. She had many great stories, as you can imagine. My father wired up a loudspeaker from our kitchen across the yard from the milking parlour,

so we wouldn't miss an Archers episode while we were milking. That's fantastic. Thank you for that. What a lovely memory and how fantastic that when Gwen turned up, she didn't actually know that much about farming. Who'd have thought it? This listener, however, does not like the idea of Susan Carter on the hour. Get rid of that irritating and shallow gossip. I have to say, this person has taken the idea extremely seriously. Do you people at Broadcasting House really think anybody wants to listen to Susan Carter? Time you all came out of your ivory tower and joined the rest of us in the real world.

As for her presenting Woman's Hour, the idea beggars belief. Right. Well, that's us told. I mean, I just float these ideas and you never know what sort of reaction you're going to get. Angie emailed with some thoughts on that conversation Joe Morris did

with Titania about her mother's death. She says, Difficult thoughts also for me when my sons got to the age I was when my mother died at the age of seven. I couldn't share these feelings with anybody. It was hard with my first son, but when my second turned seven, it wasn't so difficult. Then when they got to the ages that my three older siblings

had been when our mother died, similar feelings came along, until it became only a vague but familiar sense, nothing to fear as life goes on. When I reached the age my mother was when she died, in her late 40s, I was able to celebrate being healthy and feeling secure in the knowledge that my children were almost adults and were able to look after themselves, just in case I also passed at an early age. I'm glad to say both my sons are now in their 30s, well established in their careers and with children of their own. I believe none of my fears have been passed on to them.

From Anne, my mother died when I was 12. She was 51. I thought I'd cope with it OK until my own daughter was 12. She was 51. I thought I'd cope with it okay until my own daughter was 12. At that point, I gave the poor girl a year of hell while I insisted she knew how to cook, do all domestic chores, handle money, the importance of education, and so many, many other skills for life I thought she might need if I died imminently. Well, the year passed and we all returned to normal. Guess we all grow up thinking our parents are old, but when I got to 51, it really hit me how young she'd been. And looking at the very few photos I have of her, she looks so much younger than I do now in my 60s. I often wonder what life would have been like had she lived.

She was a wonderful mum, but my view of her is as a young child looking to the adult for love, guidance and advice. How would our relationship have grown and developed as I grew up? Thank you for that, Anne. That's lovely. Hilary says, my mother died at the age of 56. She was the oldest anybody had survived. When I got to 56, I too had a difficult year and had counselling, which helped tremendously. I also considered, should I contribute to a pension? Fortunately, I did. And at 74 years, I've benefited by that decision. So thank goodness.

Hilary says, thank you for planning and delivering such an interesting series of programmes. Well, no, Hilary, thank you for keeping faith with us over what has been a challenging period in all our broadcasting lives. But yes, I'm delighted that we have been able to keep going. And as I say, thanks to you for keeping in touch. And actually on the subject of pensions, don't forget, you might have missed the conversation I had with the former pensions minister, Steve Webb. This is about the very real issue of some married women, some divorced women and some widows being underpaid state pensions.

It could be you, it could be your auntie, it could be your mum. If it might be, make sure you listen to Woman's Hour, the weekend Woman's Hour, which is tomorrow afternoon and of course available in podcast form as well, when we'll replay that conversation about underpaid state pensions. Now, postpartum psychosis.

This is an anonymous email. Listening to that conversation brings to my mind what happened to my mum and to me. I was born in 1949 in a private nursing home and my mum immediately became seriously mentally ill. It wasn't understood. She was transferred to a mental hospital, locked in a padded cell at some point and had assorted treatments. After three months, my grandparents paid for her to be transferred to a private mental hospital, which is now a beautiful country hotel. Treatments continued until she came home seven months after my birth. Only then was I reunited with her. I saw my father and grandparents during that time, but definitely didn't live with either. I had stayed in the nursing home

for my first three months. I then spent the following four with various different ladies looking after me for a month each. I have all the letters my late mother wrote to my father during those months, and they are heartbreaking. My mother was wonderful. She continued to have mental health issues throughout her life, but generally coped. I know I was difficult as a child, but perhaps that's not surprising. However, I've never suffered similar problems, thankfully. What a relief the situation has changed in the last 70 years. And what happened to my mum and to me would not happen today. Well, I thought that was extremely interesting.

Thank you to that anonymous listener. And what a terrible time you and your mum had actually on reflection Katrina says I wanted to say thank you for that conversation about postpartum psychosis I was admitted to a mother and baby unit just over three years ago I just wanted to add that units do not only treat psychosis but other mental health issues I was admitted in my case with severe anxiety and depression. Katrina thank you and you do sound as though things are better for you now and I'm very glad about that. And Emma says I wanted to thank the people responsible for my excellent perinatal mental health care. I had it throughout the period of my second son's birth in

2018. I was ill with bipolar when I had my first son in 2015, to the point where I was a danger to both of us throughout my pregnancy. I credit the support I got from the Berkshire perinatal team, the wider mental health team and all those at Frimley Hospital for the safe and drama-free arrival of my second. Well, that's brilliant. And I'm really glad you had a positive experience, Emma. Thank you for that.

And quick word on Margaret Thatcher's statue in Grantham. Susan says, get a grip, people. Whether you like or dislike Margaret Thatcher, she did become the first woman PM of Great Britain. Of course there should be a statue. Right, well, that's that one settled-ish. Join us for Weekend Woman's Hour tomorrow afternoon at however you listen, whether on the radio or in the podcast and otherwise we're back live two minutes past 10 Monday morning.

I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.