Woman's Hour - FIFA's women's football tournaments, Women in Cuba, Adoption

Episode Date: March 20, 2026

New regulations state that every team in FIFA's women's football tournaments must include at least one female head coach or assistant coach. The requirements will come into effect during the under 17s and under 20s Women's World Cup and Women's Champions Cup competitions this year. Kylie Pentelow caught up on the news with Fern Buckley, sports presenter and former Talksport commentator, and Claire Buzzeo, a football coach at the Sunderland football academy.Cuba is experiencing one of its worst economic and humanitarian crises in decades. We hear from entrepreneur Idania del Rio who explains what it’s like for Cuban women to live under longstanding embargo restrictions and BBC Cuba Correspondent Will Grant joins Kylie from Havana to explain the political landscape and the impact of US sanctions.This week the Government told the BBC that they need to make big changes to the adoption system. Josh MacAlister, the Children and Families minister, apologised to adoptive parents and said that too many of them have been left isolated, to battle a system that doesn’t understand them. His comments follow a BBC investigation last year which found there was widespread blame of parents who were pleading with the authorities for support. Kylie speaks to BBC Special correspondent Judith Moritz who led the investigation and Sara Taylor, an adoptive mum of two and CEO and founder of peer support organisation, It Takes A Village.Shelley Klein is a writer and psychotherapist whose new novel follows the story of a woman whose husband of 25 years announces he’s leaving her, just at the same time that she finds out she has cancer. She tells Kylie about why she wanted to write the book: My Husband and Other Rats.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Corinna Jones

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Neula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Women's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Thanks so much for your company this Friday morning. So today we'll be talking about the news that every team in FIFA's women's football tournaments must include at least one female head coach or assistant coach. So what does this mean? Will it make a difference to women in football? We'll be finding out. And we'd like to hear from you on this. Maybe your daughter plays football.

and you can see how this could help to have female role models on the bench. Are there enough coaches to take up these roles? Tell us if you found yourself stepping in to help in a team at the last minute. Do get in touch. You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour. You can email us through our website too. Or send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note.

That number is 0300-100-444. Also coming up today, the government said it needs. to make big changes to the adoption system, with a minister saying many adoptive parents have been left isolated. We'll be speaking to a mum who started a group for parents to share their experiences. And we'll be talking to psychotherapist turned author, Shelley Klein, about her new novel, My Husband and Other Rats. Now, as the title suggests, it's about a not-so-great husband

who runs off with a younger woman. Now, in the book, despite choosing to leave, there are still times when he wants to be part of his old life, and that got us thinking about relationships with exes. Have you had issues with a former partner wanting to still see you and you wanted to make a clear break? Or maybe you have nurtured a relationship with an ex-partner. Do get in touch.

Those numbers again. You can text 84844. WhatsApp or voice note number is 0300-100-444. But first, big changes have been announced in women. football, which the governing body FIFA hopes will boost the number of female football coaches. Now, every team in FIFA's women's football tournaments must include at least one female head coach or assistant coach. Those requirements come into effect during the under 17s and under 20s women's World Cup and women's Champions Cup competitions that take place later this year. FIFA says it hopes the new rules will see a rapid increase in female representation.

Well, joining me to talk about this is Fern Buckley, a sports presenter and former talk sport commentator. And also Claire Bazillo, who's a football coach at the Sunderland Football Academy. Morning to you both. Fern, I want to start with you. Obviously, the importance of the representation of women in football is something we follow closely on this programme. So how big a deal is this latest news? This is a big move from FIFA. And honestly, it's been a long time coming.

We've talked about change for years. But this feels like one of the first times we're seeing something concrete because inevitably, it's so huge for visibility. If you're a young girl and you can actually see women in those roles, it changes what you think is possible. You dare to dream bigger, don't you, and see those positions are achievable. And not only that, it's not just about the girls, but boys also benefit from more diverse coaching influences. It helps normalize equality from an early age. So I'm really happy to see the start of hopefully a chain reaction. But like you mentioned at the start, there's plenty of parents.

that have stepped in last minute to coach a team. I know my dad did many a time. So this isn't a bash on the dads that do that. It's just positive to see more women in the game. How long has this been on the cards for? Is this something that we were expecting to happen? Yeah, it's a discussion that's been bubbling away for a long time. We knew FIFA were having a meeting,

weren't exactly entirely in the know of what was being discussed. And things like this happen in football all the time. The discussions go on by high. climb the scenes. And then once it's agreed at that level, it comes out quite quickly and we see it implemented. But I'm more than happy to see it come in, like you say, among all the youth and senior tournaments this year, including club and national teams. And actually, when you compare it to the 2023 Women's World Cup, 12 of those 32 head coaches were female, including England manager, Serena Vigman, who's become a household name, hasn't she? But it's not quite enough.

In the UK football, females only make up 38% of coaches across all sports. So, yeah, it's actually been dropping since 2022, a decline from 44%. So a lot needs to happen and actually make sure that there's women also available to fulfil these roles. Well, let's talk to one of those women who is a football coach. Let's talk to Claire. We said you're a coach at the Sunderland Football Academy. You coach boys, in fact, but you've been a mentor for women coaching women and girls in

Northumberland. How easy is it to get female coaches involved and then to progress through the system? I think it's very difficult to try and get female coaches to, one, step over the sidelines to try and have that experience of, if fortunate, any level. I know that when I was mentoring the coaches that I had, had all intentions of wanting to get to that next level and do the level two. but it tended to be more about the fact that they didn't have any child care to look after their kids or the lack of confidence that they had in themselves and that self-belief that they understood the game from a more technical point of view. So how did you get involved then, Claire, in the first place?

How did you become a coach? Well, I got involved about 12 years ago now. It was kind of one of those random things that I was, you know, I was taking my son to his football team and they were going to end up without the coach. I started helping out just to, you know, I'd always enjoyed football, but I'd never ever thought for one second

that I would be getting involved in actually becoming a coach. So it started from there, and I kind of got a buzz of, you know, wanting to do more and I worked my way up and now I've got my Bay license. I'm now coaching at Sunderland. So yeah, it's been a long, hard slog, but it's been a very, very enjoyable slog, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I mean, presuming you are surrounded by

and have been by a lot of men in the profession. Do you think this news might potentially help more women want to become coaches in the first place? I think there are a lot of women out there who would like to become coaches, but again, I think it's about this self. self-confidence and the belief that can they actually do it? Because I think the struggle, you know, in terms of being a confident woman,

it's hard. Seemingly, you have to work harder than your male counterparts to be seen as being competent in understanding the game from a more technical point of view. And that is hard. It is hard. And I think that's why a lot of women don't want to do that, because they feel a bit silly, they feel, you know, the lack that self-belief, which is why I got involved in mentoring to try and help and support

and give them, you know, that confidence and the guidance to become themselves and to become something great and big because children of all ages, male and female, need, you know, male and female counterparts because we all bring something different to the party. Yeah, Clad, is there a difference in, in, in, training to coach females as opposed to men. And does it help to have a female coach in that role to do that? I think it does in terms of, I think, as a female coach, we do bring that sort of empathy, that motherly empathy that I think a lot of children need.

Certainly, you know, females, you know, and we understand as female coach, as we understand the female body better than a male counterpart. So if we have that combination of male and female, I think, you know, it gives a rounded player. You know, you become a more rounded player with that. Fern, it's really interesting to hear Claire's personal experience there. You, of course, meet female players as part of your work. What do they say to you about being coached by men versus women?

You know what? When I interview players, they always uphold them. most respect for their managers, their coaches, you know, the backroom staff, whether that's male or female. They don't differentiate. They just listen to direction and follow that. And that's from grassroots right the way to the top flight. However, like Claire was saying there, I think it's natural for a female player to feel possibly a little bit more connected to female coaches because they understand what it's like to be a woman. The challenges, for example, we're still lacking in the professionalisation of the game in terms of contracts. So a lot of players

in the pyramid, they're still working other jobs, they've got families. They manage a menstrual cycle. It's all those things that women will understand on a different level, a deeper level, than maybe a man would. As I was saying, these requirements come into effect later this year. Do you think there are enough female coaches Fern out there to fulfil these roles? Because we're looking at quite a number here, aren't we? Yeah, and that's the other concern. It's great seeing this being put into position, but that has been a significant lack of coaches within the community. I mean, just looking at 24 in the top flight in the WSL, the Women's Super League,

only a few clubs had female managers, head coaches. Only 21 women held a UAFA pro license across England. So I'm hoping that with different initiatives from both the FA, from FIFA, from England football as well, we hopefully see some more women, more girls stick around in football. Because it's a natural progression, isn't it? If you play football, you end up maybe going into a managerial role or a coaching role. So, yeah, I'm hoping that there will be enough to fulfil these positions. Claire, you said you've been doing this for 12 years.

Has the situation improved? Has the number of female coaches changed in that time? Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, I remember when I first started out, I never seen one female coach anywhere for about eight years. But in all fairness, I mean, there weren't that many female teams in and around the area at the time either. But, you know, I mean, up here in Northumberland, the FAA at Northumberland,

have had a massive push in trying to open, you know, more teams for female coaches, trying to get more female coaches involved in the game, whether it's male or female. You know, so you know the support's there now. It wasn't at the time. But yeah, I mean, it's great to see so many people, you know, especially a lot of mums as well. gone out there and now sort of have taken that step to become a coach. It's really lovely to see. We've actually had a messaging from somebody who said I've been a football coach since 2021

when I coached an under eight mixed mostly boys team as they needed a coach and I stepped up. Since then I've been coaching girls' teams since under 10s and the other coaches will men. I think it makes a big difference for women to coach girls when there are times when the coaches don't quite understand the girls or when they need an extra. a female role model to give them confidence. I enjoy it. And I think this move will increase the number of girls in the sports,

not just playing, but as referees and coaches, etc. They didn't give their name. But thank you so much for that comment. It's exactly what we were just talking about, isn't it? And earlier this week, we spoke to Sue Day, the FAA's new head of women's football, about their initiative to get more girls playing football. Do you think that at that level, it can influence girls,

you know, as young as primary school age to start playing when they see those role models on the bench? Yes, I guess girls can see the commitment from the governing bodies to get them to stay in football. We see such a huge drop-off in secondary school age and girls playing not only football but sports as a whole and it's something I've covered for many years now. And although it's grown year-on-year with the Women's World Cup,

the Euros as well, it sadly has been the case. But for me personally, I played football right up until secondary school, went to an all-girls school, where football then wasn't on the curriculum. So I never played again, never got onto the pitch again. So I guess in this era and now, the lionesses, girls can see that you can get to the top of the game. You can see it as a viable job prospect, not only on the pitch, but behind the scenes as well and coaching in physiotherapy, you know, the medical side of it all, or even the media aspect of it all. I know it's a difficult career to follow, but they've got a bit more confidence and we'll have a bit more confidence that,

you know, that will happen and they could stay in these roles. Just finally to you, Claire, if anyone's out there listening and fancies, you know, having a little go at coaching and, you know, think it might be something that they would be good at. What skills do you think they need? They just need to be themselves. That's all they need to do is just be themselves. You know, I think it takes a lot of confidence as a woman to just make that first step and that first move to doing it. But you can. And it's like I said before, you know, it's about that self-belief. And I'm here. to try and help and support any female coach who was interested in, you know, wanting to be part of the game in any capacity. And my, you know, response would be to go for it, do it. Because you don't know.

If you don't try, you won't ever know. And as you were saying, you don't necessarily have to have played football, do you? No, no. I mean, you know, in terms of me and in my development and, you know, where I wanted to be and where I started, I didn't really play it either, but it doesn't mean, that you don't have an understanding of the game or a desire to want to do something within that.

But yeah, I mean, it's probably been one of the most amazing things that I've ever done with my life is getting involved in coaching. And it's something that you just get this buzz from. And I would, like I say, I would tell any other female, if they're fancy in it, give it a go, because you don't know until you try. Lovely to speak to you today. Claire Buzio and Fern Buckley, thank you so much. And if you have any thoughts on this, and maybe you have given it a go and have become a coach. Do let us know 84844 is the number to text or WhatsApp is 0-3700-100-444. Now, Cuba is facing one of its worst economic and humanitarian crisis in a decade.

Earlier this week, millions were left without power after the national electricity grid collapsed, and much of the island, including the capital Havana, was plunged into darkness. Chronic fuel shortages have been exacerbated by US blockade on oil shipments, and along with shortages of food and medicine, the situation triggered street protests, though unauthorised demonstrations are illegal. Well, to talk about what's happening and the impact on women, I'm joined now from Havana by Will Grant, the BBC's correspondent in Cuba. Morning, Will, thanks very much for joining us.

So just to say that you are making use of a generator to be able to speak to us today. Can you just describe what the current situation is like there? It's really bleak, Kylie. I mean, you've described there just how the whole island was plunged into darkness for a day. That's the first time since the Trump administration put in place this near-total fuel blockade on the island, following the removal of Nicholas Maduro from power in Venezuela. Now, Venezuela matters because it was Cuba's most important energy partner. And in the wake of Washington basically taking control of the Venezuelan oil industry,

not a drop has been sent to Cuba. And, of course, that has been extended to Cuba's other energy partners by the Trump administration, threatening tariffs and other sanctions on anyone who sends oil to the island. So that's been three months now with no oil shipments. And you're really seeing the effects in the streets, whether or not that's rubbish not being collected, whether or not that's obviously very, very few vehicles in the road, people walking or cycling to work,

work being shuttered, schools being shuttered, hospitals only taking emergency cases and so on. It really feels very, very critical. I lived in Cuba for the best part of a decade around 2014. into 2021 and I've come back constantly since and I've never seen it at this bleak not by a long way. So then more specifically, how is this impacting life in Cuba for women and children? It's having a real impact on women.

Cuban society is divided in a way that women are often tasked with the sourcing, that are preparing a family food in many families on the island. And of course, if you don't have ways of cooking, it becomes incredibly difficult. But also, as I've said, with workplaces closed, particularly state-run institutions and things where women play important roles, that's no work. So there's no sense of an income from the woman's son. in terms of the contribution to the family. So everybody seems to be in a sort of fighting mode, as it were,

just struggling to get by one woman said to me yesterday, a retired nurse. She said this isn't living, this is surviving. And I think women are basically bearing the brunt of that in many, many families, most families, arguably. Early this week you spoke to Idania del Rio, an entrepreneur who's based in Old Havana. She runs a design store called Clandestina.

Now, she couldn't join us live today due to the chances of having a power outage. But you asked her how this crisis is affecting women in Cuba. Let's have a listen. I think it's kind of affecting the basic core of every household because women in Cuba are in charge of everything. In the house, in the family, in the, you know, school life,

children, everything. So women are having a really hard time to try to figure out how to survive the day. Even if you have to go to the doctor, even if you have to take your children to school, all the higher education is closed. So universities are shut down. Some state government places are also shot or working half-time. So people are not even going to work. So if you are not going to work, you don't make money, you know, you don't find ways to survive. So it's really hard. Is it disproportionately harder on women, do you think, this crisis, this fuel blockade and these current circumstances in Cuba? It's not a proportion that you can measure. I think it's in every family. I think it's very, very hard on every member

of the family. Even if you are a teenager, it's really hard on teenagers because they are not going to school. They are not meeting with their friends. Elderly people are also without medicines, without the ability to go to the doctor. Women have pretty much all the weight of the household on their shoulders. So it's really hard on women. You know, food, cooking. People can't cook their meals. So women have to wake up at whatever the time of the electric power is coming back, 2 a.m. They wake up at 2 a.m. They do whatever they can for food that day. And that's it, you know. So it's survival at this stage. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was Idania del Rio there. And Will, Idania mentioned issues around the lack of medication for the elderly.

But what about pregnant women in Cuba? How is the embassable? affecting their access to health care? So it's always been difficult. The embargo in terms of the US economic embargo, which has been in place for over six decades, has made access to medications very, very tough on the island for a long time. But this latest, this three-month total fuel blockade has made things horrendous to be pregnant on the island.

The government gave us access to a maternity hospital in the last few days. It's a place called Ramon Gonzalez-Coro. It's the main specialist maternity in neonatal hospital. I met one woman there who's basically been in the hospital for the full three months of this energy crisis. And she has gestational diabetes and hypertension. attention. So she hasn't, she's basically been an observation the entire time for three months. She's 26 years old. It's her first pregnancy. Imagine how nervous she would be in the first place. And then add on top of that bed rest and the constant supervision in a situation where the lights are

constantly going out. And as she was extremely complimentary, as you'd expect, about the staff and about the care she's received and about the fact that she's not gone without. But it is a round-the-clock struggle. And I put her testimony because she was obviously surrounded by the doctors and the nurses as she was talking to me from perhaps entirely free to speak her mind. With an experience outside the hospital, a woman who's 37, it's her second pregnancy. She's at home and she was just showing us in the darkness that she can't cook her breakfast. She, as Danny was saying, might have to get up and two in the morning to make food if that's when the power comes back on. She doesn't have the vitamins she needs. She has no folic acid.

Everything is a struggle. And of course, that's before the baby's arrived. Once the baby arrives, she's worrying about milk and how to find powdered milk. And frankly, what kind of a Cuba she'll be bringing her child into. Yeah, it must be such a worrying time. I'd also mentioned teenagers when she was speaking there. So is all education closed well at the moment? No, it's sporadic.

It sort of depends on which parts of the city or which parts of the island are hit with power cuts. But, you know, when you get one like the other day, which was, you know, from one end of the island to the other, a complete nationwide blackout, naturally schools are completely shuttered too. So you are finding that schools are often closed. And even if they're not, then you've got children doing homework by mobile phone light, by, you know, unable to switch on technology or do research at home for any kind of school projects and things. So the whole kind of educating your children or educating yourself as, you know, the university students is becoming incredibly tough. And yes, there are many days out of the academic calendar year where schools are fully shuttered.

What about those things that we as women here take for granted being able to get access to things like sanitary products? That's been tricky over the years too, like I say, partly because of the US economic embargo, partly because of the government's mismanagement of the economy. There are many things that simply aren't available on the shops. shelves, again, made so much harder in these current circumstances. And what I think we're seeing in Cuba is a division now between those who have access to dollars somehow, whether or not that's through work or through family members abroad who are able to support and those who don't. They're on their own. They have no income coming in from Florida or Spain. And therefore, they have

next to no purchasing power for that sector. of society. It is very, very tricky because some of those products do exist. There is something called Mipemes, which is small and medium-sized businesses. Basically, those are small little stores, which are

now permitted under the slight easing of economic rules on the island over the past few years. You can find products in there, but you need the money to buy it with, and that is what so many people lack. The Cuban peso has lost a huge amount of its value.

and so people are having to resort to the black market where prices are even higher. Let's hear from Idania again because you spoke to her about her work and the challenges that she experiences. Everyone is working from home. Of course, they connect when they can. Here in old Havana, the search is not as severe as other parts of the city or the island. So we can keep some energy here in the store. I'm coming to work in my bike. I ride from my home here.

Everyone else is either they have a bicycle or one of those small bikes that are also electric. People walk from their house to here. For example, the seamsters, they are coming like only twice a week because they can't afford the price of transportation. So if we pay what people are asking in the streets, you know, taxis, there is no reason to go to work because you earn in the day less that what you have to pay for coming to work. I remember when you were part of a group of entrepreneurs who met Barack Obama while he was in Havana. You addressed him. There was a nice moment of interaction.

That was a very positive moment. My recollection is that Cubans really did feel energized and optimistic at that time. Do you see any optimism in this current period? And do you think there is a root out of this crisis, both for Cuba and for clandestina? Honestly, I don't feel optimistic. But I do have hope. Because I remember what happened also in the Obama days. and maybe it's not, you know, in the best form you can imagine,

maybe it's not the proper symbol, maybe it's not the ideal. And I'm really counting on it. You know, I do rely a lot on Cuban Americans, and I do rely a lot on people in Miami to, you know, support Cuba somehow and reconnect with their homeland and all of that. I'm hopeful that at least some of that is coming back soon, I hope. So I'm I, Danny, are there with some hope. Will, do you think there is hope?

I've seen a fascinating period in Cuban history. I've seen this island host the first sitting US president in 80 years when Barack Obama came here and that moment of feeling that things were optimistic that people could do things that young people didn't have to leave in order to sort of fulfill the plans they had for their lives. And I've seen that turn and get progressively worse to this point now that the lights on the island are more often off than on where people, you know, as Daniel was saying,

don't have enough money simply to get public transport to go to work because they'll make less at work than they spend trying to get to work and the sheer sort of bleak outlook that the island's currently facing. It does feel like things can only potentially get better from here, which is cause for optimism. But you talk to people and they're frustrated, they're frustrated at their own government, they're frustrated at Washington's inability to find ways to work with their government.

And what people enjoyed about the Obama-era-Thore was the idea of no longer being a pariah state in the middle of the Caribbean that was always the bad guy and that they could actually just be addressed as people, as Cubans. And they enjoyed that. And this now feels that they're plunged back into a situation where their government is at loggerheads with Washington. And it is very tiring. So people are exhausted. And I think they just want to find hope that their two governments can plot a route through this, like, grown-ups, quite frankly, that will therefore make their ordinary lives a little better sometimes soon.

Well, thank you so much for joining us this morning. That's Will Grant there, the BBC's correspondent in Cuba. Now, we've been asking for your comments on this morning. I'm going to be talking shortly to the author of a book called My Husband and Other Rats, where the husband runs off with a younger woman. So we've been talking about relationships with exes, and lots of you have been getting in touch. Some really interesting comments on this, actually. This one here, no name given. Says, my ex wanted us to have Sunday lunch all together every week. Uh, no, she says. Then he wanted us to go out for dinner on our wedding anniversary. He had a new girlfriend by this stage. Unbelievable idiocy. She says,

Life is so good being happily single. This one here from Sharon in Merseyside. Sharon says, my husband and I separated 15 years ago. We haven't divorced, but my husband and I have worked hard to focus on our children and family life. It's my Christian faith that has strengthened me in this. But now, they're adults. I'm wondering what the future holds. Thanks very much for your comments so far. Do get in touch. 84844. We're at BBC Women's on social media or you can WhatsApp [phone]. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure.

The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Now this week, the government told the BBC that they need to make big changes to the adoption system. Josh McAllister, the Children and Families Minister, said that too many adoptive parents have been left isolated to battle a system that doesn't understand them.

Well, his comments follow a BBC investigation last year, which found there was widespread blame of parents who were pleading with the authorities for support. Well, to talk about this further, we're joined by BBC Special Correspondent Judith Moritz, who led the investigation, and also Sarah Taylor, an adoptive mum of two, and CEO and founder of Peer Support Organisation,

It Takes a Village. Thank you so much to both of you. Judith, can I start with you? So we covered your investigation last year. So what did Josh McAllister, the Children and Families and Minister, say about that and the current adoption system? This investigation, well, we've been working on it for now best part of a year. We broadcast initially at the end of last year. This is the first time, and we've been asking the government since that point, for an interview.

This is the first interview that they've given us to respond to the investigation. It's very clear when I sat down with the adoption minister, Josh McAllister, that he had listened to. He told me that it had taught him things. He'd learned by listening to the experiences directly of the families we'd featured, perhaps how difficult things are. He said, yeah, there's an acceptance. We need to make big changes. He said that for a lot of families, it's not working.

I pushed him on that because actually, you know, anecdotally from the families we're talking to, and there are many, many families now who've got in touch with us as part of the original investigation, but subsequently too in its way. who are saying this is widespread. And what he said was that he accepts that there are changes that need to be made. He accepts that for a lot of families the system isn't working. He wouldn't go as far as to tell me that the whole system is broken.

But he has launched, the government have launched a consultation process. They want to hear from adoptive families about the changes that they want to see. So he's telling me that their ears are open. And he did apologise? Yeah. What we did was we showed him a range of different accounts from families. We've interviewed, we videoed some of their accounts. And we asked those families, those parents, to record messages for the government.

What would you like to see? Tell the minister yourselves what it's like. And having played those messages, including the testimony of one mother who had found herself in police custody, having been arrested after false allegations made by her child, and I should say she was at pains, as all these parents are, to explain that it is not the children's fault this situation, but there are so many deeply traumatised children who have been adopted. Their adoptive parents are coping or trying their best to cope with that situation.

We played those videos to the minister, and this mother who had been found a self in custody, he was clearly moved by that. He was shocked by it. And I said, look, what would you say to these families? and he said, well, and he put it very carefully, that if they have received support from services that is not good enough, then I would apologise.

You know, I asked him, are you responsible? You're the government minister? And he said, I'm responsible for adoption in this country. I feel responsible. You recently met with a group of adoptive parents from across the south-west of England. Joe Alana, Martin and Ian are all members of It Takes a Village, a peer support organisation. Let's hear what they have had to say about their experiences of adoption.

a park in Bristol and they're doing a well-being walk. There's just no help or support there for you. You're told when you adopt, oh, there's help there for you 24-7. Once you adopt, there's nothing there for you and you're completely alone and it's frightening. The conversations we have with other adopters, people would not believe the conversations were having. I was in a restaurant with a fellow adopter a few weeks ago and we just had a lovely time out of me and we had a glass of wine and there were all other people there.

As we were walking out, we said, can you imagine if we shared with these people what we've just been talking about, police involvement, trauma, the school's not doing what they should do, they would not believe it. That's the world. And the concentration of it as well.

They might think, oh, what a rough life you've had with your children. You're like, no, that was the last month. Yeah. You know, like, you had to go up and down. We always say, don't we, that sometimes we think we go through more in a day than some parents might go through in a lifetime. Because the kids are going up and down.

Sarah, I want to bring you in here because you're the CEO of It Takes a Village where those parents meet. You got in touch with the BBC, didn't you, after Judith's investigation last year, which then led to that meetup that we just heard. So, I mean, words like, you know, being alone, frightening that those parents are saying, how common are these types of experiences that they were talking about? They're very common, unfortunately, Kylie. I hear on a daily basis from members of our group who are facing challenges and struggles that I really don't think the wider society can comprehend.

There seems to be such a lack of understanding of what it means for adoptive families and what our children have gone through in those really early months and years of their life the impact throughout their entire journey into adulthood and beyond. You are a mum of two adopted children. So what has your experience been like? My experience, again, I think I have friends who say I should write a book and I don't think people would believe what they read. But my experience is no different to any of the other families.

I am further down the line, so I adopted my children 23 years ago, so I now have two beautiful, wonderful, strong young adults, but they struggle in life. And I think the list of challenges that myself and other families are facing are things like children not being able to sleep because they're so frightened. We look at self-harm. You know, what parent has to stay awake all night in the fear that their child may harm themselves? We're looking at smashed windows, violent outbursts, all coming from this place of early trauma,

this fear that our children carry around with them on a day-to-day basis. We've got school refusal, which often then leads to our parents not being able to hold down jobs. the constant battle of having to fill out forms. And I think that for me, you know, all the different agencies that we as parents have to come into contact with. We have to become kind of warriors and fighting for our children in order to access services that I believe and all our families believe should be there for our children because we know of their early start. and the damage that that can do,

we shouldn't have to justify that our children need help. And I do feel that the sort of systemic failing, that I'm not sure that the government understand, that we should be able to access specialist therapeutic support that needs to be appropriate to our children's needs. It needs to be consistent. We can't just have eight therapeutic sessions and think that the children are fine now, it has to be that sort of lifelong support.

And what we can do with our peer support group is we can help the parents, we can give them a safe space for them to talk about these challenges and know that they're being understood. But peer support doesn't address the complex trauma that our children have and it shouldn't replace appropriate services. that our children require. It's interesting you say that because the government highlighted

the value of peer support and wanting more of them. But clearly, you believe that more needs to have been... More needs to be there. The support needs to be there that's not just from an organisation like your own is what you're saying.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think peer support, I don't think, I know peer support is valuable. You know, I hear from members who are cannot put into words how grateful they feel to be connected to others who understand what it's like to live our lives. But I'm really concerned that the government are going to highlight that peer support is vital, which it is. But then what, at the expense of being able to access specialist therapeutic support?

No, we can't. We cannot, we cannot mend other families or. deal with that complex trauma that our children are living with. So it's part of a much bigger picture. Peer support is needed and it is valued, but it has to be part of such a wider picture than that. Judith, you were listening to what Sarah was saying there, really interesting points,

and you talked about this consultation. Do you think the government can solve this? issue and are they, does it seem like they're doing enough to you in terms of what you've heard parents saying? Well, it's not so much whether it seems like it's enough to me, I think, as whether it seems like it's enough to these parents. And I've met with Sarah and with her group and with multiple other parents and spoken to organizations, charities and others working within the adoption space.

And there is widespread, I'm afraid, confusion about these proposals. disappointment. People have said they feel ill-conceived, rushed through. You know, it's not been met so far. The government proposals that are sitting there, they're on the website, you can go and look at them. The people I'm talking to, the parents I'm talking to, are saying to me that they are not seeing enough detail

in those proposals to give them confidence. Now, when I put that to the minister, what he said was, well, we wanted to make this very broad brush to allow enough scope there for everybody to offer their opinion and things. feedback. But I think, I mean, there are proposals there around, for example, things like targeted support, targeted interventions the government is suggesting, a predictable stress point. So when a child moves from primary school to secondary school, that's one of the things captured in this new government guidance. Now, what the families are saying to me, what Sarah, no doubt, would say without wanting to speak for her, is those stress points are known and recognized and important. But this is a lot of. lifelong situation. These children have experienced trauma, which is, which doesn't start and end at the school, the transition point between primary and secondary school. It is lifelong. And so what

they're saying to me, these families, is they need to see more detail. They're all feeding back. There will be many responses for the government to go through. But no, I'm not hearing a huge amount of confidence. So just finally, what does the government say in their defence? Well, what the minister said was that he is listening and that he recognises there needs to be significant reform. They're not denying that there are issues there. And he says that he is absolutely looking at root and branch change. So then it becomes a question of what does that look like. This consultation is open until May and then we're expecting to hear the detail from the government later in the year about what we'll follow. Some of the proposals within it, incidentally,

are not including the one to do with targeted support between primary and secondary school, are not conditional on the government's eventual response. So some of these things are already planned, but we'll see. Let's talk again later this year. Judith, thank you very much. Always good to speak to you and Sarah Taylor C. of It Takes a Village. Thank you very much indeed. Just to say if you've been affected by anything you've heard in today's program, go to the BBC Action Line where there are support links available. We have had a comment on this one, someone who says they wish to remain anonymous. They say, I adopted three children back in 2006, one of the children who was nine at the time,

made horrific allegations against myself and my husband. We were arrested. Social services treated us appallingly, as did the police. We were given no support. We were locked up for 36 hours, eventually let go without charge. It ruined our life. She said it ruined the child's life. The adoption broke down and the child who is now in his 30s is strange. Thank you so much for sharing your story on that. As always, do get in touch with your thoughts on 84844. Now, just to say, we're going to be speaking to the author Shelley Klein in just a moment. We often talk, don't we, about how life-changing books can be on this programme. But what about a great read that we really did change the course of your life.

Now, this year is the national year of reading and a TV show is being made for the BBC about people whose lives have been dramatically changed by a fantastic book. They're looking for people to take part. So the team particularly wants to hear from women and girls. Maybe if you've had a high-flying job or an incredible book gave you the push that you really needed to change course and lead a simpler life. Or maybe you were wife, mother, daughter. Then when it often did something really surprising just for you.

after reading something that made you see things differently. So get in touch with the TV producers, if you fancy being part of that documentary, just email reading at blinkfilmsuk.com or do get in touch with us in the normal way. So now, Shelley Klein is a writer and psychotherapist, and her new book is a novel. My Husband and Other Rats, as the title indicates,

is a comic novel. And begins when the husband of the main character, Alison, has just announced that he's having an affair with a younger woman and leaving her just at the point she found out she has cancer. Now friends are advising her to seek help from a psychotherapist. Everybody said I should see one. Talk to a professional, they said. It might help you get things in perspective.

At this point, I'd been sobbing for eight days straight. And when I wasn't sobbing, I was gazing at the empty spaces left behind by my husband, Elliot, who dumped me for someone called Franny Hooker. Believe me, that was her name. You can't go on like this, Alison, they said. You'll make yourself sick. But the truth was, I was already sick. Of course, no one knew this at the time, no one except for me.

I might have found it funny if it hadn't felt as if I were drowning. That was Julie Maisie there reading from the start of my husband and other rats, and Shelley is with me here in the Wormsau Studio. Thanks so much for coming in. I mean, it's a fantastic title. How did you come up with that? Was that something you wanted to call it from early on? No.

I have to confess, it was my agent who came up with that title. We went through all sorts of different versions, and that was the final choice. And it's made a lot of people chuckle. Yeah. You've never been married yourself. So tell me what it was about this topic that you wanted to explore and write about.

It wasn't specifically infidelity that I wanted to explore. It was more finding something that my main character was battling and struggling with. And the main thrust for me was writing about her journey of trying to locate a therapist who she could get on with and who she felt comfortable talking to. So that was more the drive. And then I had to think of what was troubling her. Yeah, what would lead her to need to seek.

There are help. Yes. Well, let's talk about that then because that is quite funny when she goes through a series of different people because constantly people seem to be telling her you need to talk to somebody. So she is pursuing that. You're a psychotherapist yourself, as we said. So it's quite funny that you've decided to almost include those therapy fails. Yes, yes.

Well, that was my sort of my mission to think about it. I'm talking through Alison. She is someone who had never been to therapy before, so she didn't know what to expect. And I think a lot of people don't know what to expect walking into a therapy room. So it struck me that there could be a lot of funny, situations because she is not expecting, for instance, the first therapist she goes to see Carl

Oberman is one of those therapists who doesn't speak very much and she finds that very confronting and it causes her to have some amusing moments, I think. And there's another moment where she tries to put something in a therapist spin and the therapist asked her to take the, it's just a cup or something and the therapist says, can you take it away? That actually stemmed from a friend telling me that story about her therapist. And I thought, oh, I'm stealing that for my book. It, you know, therapists, we're a strange bunch of people. I think we take our work in, well, I know we take our work incredibly seriously, But there can be some funny moments.

And that one where Alison goes to see a therapist called Elizabeth Metcalfe, it was particularly fun to write. And it did stem from a true story of someone, of a therapist who didn't want anyone putting anything into her waste paper basket. And it's quite funny because then it leads to the things. therapist talking about why she's kind of so angry about not being able to put something in the bin, you know, and they go down a whole other trajectory. It's quite interesting to me that you, when we meet Alison, she's going through all sorts of things, you know, she's kind of helping

to care for her mother, her mother's unwell, obviously, as we've said, her husband leaves, she's got a cancer diagnosis, some other things happen that I don't want to ruin the story for those who want to read it. But why did you, why did you want to do that to focus on a time when everything seems to come together. I think often we as, as, you know, just average people are going through an awful lot. And it sometimes seems that all these things sort of congregate at the same time. And it brings in darkness to the more humorous side of the story. And I really, I do believe that to write good humour, there has to be dark times.

And that's really what was what I was writing about. And also how often humour can help us, can be a tool to get us through bad times. One thing that really struck me was the female friendships in the book as well. and how in particular kind of her best friend, Susan, is the time when she tells Susan that she does have cancer is actually quite funny in a way. It's quite humorous. Was that important to you to get across those relationships that we have, you know, as women with friends? And we seem to be able to do that, don't we, to bring out that side of humor even when we're going through the worst possible times? Yes.

And I really did want to have Alison, have good female friends who weren't sort of molly coddling her, but were very supportive and there for her. And, you know, there's Susan and then there's Nell who's in her 80s, who I'm particularly fond of, and she comes up with all sorts of things, not advice. as such, but just because of who she is, she's quite eccentric and she brings a different sort of strain of humour to the story. We haven't got much time left on the programme, but I do want to briefly mention you were last on the programme when you were talking about your book, The Seathru House,

it was about your father, the well-known textile designer Bernard Klein. Was it a conscious decision to move away from fathers in your current book? because we don't, your main character doesn't have any contact with her father? No, no, she doesn't. It wasn't conscious actually. It completely sort of came naturally that I wanted to concentrate on the mother figure in this book. But I had written about my father and, you know, our relationship was quite funny. And I think it was the humour I wanted to take.

into the fiction, the human relationships and the humor that can arise. I come from a family, my brother, sister and I all have, I think, good senses of humor. And it does see you through. So we've been asking for comments on relationship with exes. We've had some really, really interesting ones. This one here says me and my ex nurtured our relationship to the point we had another a child together as friends. We split up when our son was two,

spent a year getting to a really good friendship and co-parenting space. Then we had our daughter platonically when I son was four. We now live in the same cul-de-sac with the kids running between houses. It's like one family with two homes. He's had a new partner for a few years. It took a while for that all to work, but it's lovely now.

I mean, that is pretty idyllic situation, isn't it, for a breakup? Yes. And in the story, the ex still kind of wants to be part of the life, it seems. Well, I think he's very excited about, you know, his extramarital affair with Franny. But then when she does become pregnant and he suddenly realizes that perhaps he's taken on a little bit too much. It's been lovely to speak to you, Shelley.

Thank you so much. And just to say, the husband and other rats is out now. I just want to get one more comment in here now. It's a funny story. I'm a family solicitor. I got divorced from my first husband, but we stayed on good terms. He got remarried soon afterwards in a whirlwind relationship, which quickly broke down. I did his divorce for him, she says. Thank you so much for all your comments, of course.

On Weekend Women's Hour tomorrow at 4.30, how a powerful network of women has stepped in to support those affected by the Central Glasgow Fire a couple of weeks ago. Do join me for that if you can, but for now. Thank you very much indeed for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Jamie Bartlett, and for BBC Radio 4, I'll be looking at how fakery took over the world. No, no, hang on, hang on, sorry.

You're not Jamie Bartlett, I'm Jamie Bartlett. Oh, really? Well, who am I then? I'm afraid you're not real pal. You're just an imitation chatbot I created to help me make this series on. modern fakery and why it's everywhere. Sounds good. What's going to be in it? Well, there's a lot.

1980s professional wrestling, dodgy academics, AI psychosis, COVID vaccine, skeptics. What's it called? Everything is fake and nobody cares with me, Jamie Bartlett. And me, Jimmy Botlett. Listen first on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid, don't want to have a kid, don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth.

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