Woman's Hour - Figs in Wigs & 'Little Wimmin', Former Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill, Rachael Denhollander & USA Gymnastics

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Northern Ireland politics are once again in flux and the government can't really function. At the beginning of February, Sinn Fein Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill lost her role in Stormont afte...r First Minister Paul Givan, a member of the DUP, resigned. In her role as Deputy over the years, she worked closely with former DUP leader and First Minister Arlene Foster. Now she could be on track to become the first Nationalist First Minister of Northern Ireland. In her first interview with Woman's Hour, she joins Emma. When you think of Little Women, you might not think of climate change, astrology or contemporary feminism. However, all-female performance collective Figs in Wigs have updated the classic for a new generation in Little Wimmin, a surrealist theatre show. What starts as a faithful adaptation of the book gradually becomes an absurdist and hilarious commentary on the issues facing women today. We discuss with cast members Sarah Moore and Alice Roots. In 2016 Rachael Denhollander became the first woman to publicly accuse the USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar of sexual assault. Her stand led to hundreds of other women coming forward to tell their stories of how Nassar had also abused them under the guise of medical treatment. Their testimony, as well as the discovery of tens of thousands of child sexual abuse images on his computer, eventually led to his imprisonment. Rachael talks about her fight for justice and the impact on elite gymnastics culture. Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Kirsty StarkeyInterviewed Guest: Michelle O'Neill Interviewed Guest: Sarah Moore Interviewed Guest: Alice Roots Interviewed Guest: Rachael Denhollander Photographer: Rosie Collins

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Starting point is 00:01:16 Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. An apparently deliberate airstrike on women and children. As it's confirmed that three people, including a child, were killed in a Russian strike on a maternity and children's hospital in the city of Maripol yesterday, the war in Ukraine seems to have gone to another level. President Zelensky, speaking Russian rather than Ukrainian
Starting point is 00:01:41 for part of his latest video address, described the action as a war crime. He said, what kind of country is Russia that it's afraid of hospitals and maternity wards and destroys them? Boris Johnson has said there are few things more depraved than targeting the vulnerable and defenceless. Well, shortly, we're going to explore why this is a potential war strategy and its impact. But I, of course, want to give you the chance to speak and react. You can text me here at Woman's Hour at 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate.
Starting point is 00:02:12 On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or email me through the Woman's Hour website. Also on today's programme, the woman who, until very recently, was the most powerful woman in Northern Ireland, Sinn Féin's Michelle O'Neill. The theatre troupe bringing Louisa May Alcott's Little Women into 2022, and live in the studio, I'll be joined by Rachel Den Hollander, the first woman to publicly accuse the US gymnastics doctor Larry Nasser
Starting point is 00:02:37 of sexual assault, paving the way for hundreds more women to come forward and eventually see him landed in prison. But returning to that Russian airstrike on a children's and maternity hospital in Maripol, there have been shocking images, which I'm sure you've seen, of pregnant women being carried out of the hospital on stretchers. And earlier on the Today programme, Sergei Orlov, deputy mayor of Maripol, had this to say. I'm absolutely sure they know about this facility and this is the third hospital that they are destroying in the city. Previous day they destroyed hospital number nine
Starting point is 00:03:13 by artillery shelling and this was COVID hospital with 300 beds and also they attack and destroy blood collection station in Mariupol. So it's the third hospital. I'm absolutely sure that they know what their targets are. So is it part of a deliberate strategy to target women and children? Has that been used in other conflicts?
Starting point is 00:03:39 And what's the hope or the impact for that, as crass as that may sound, when designing a war, if such things can be designed. I'm joined now by Dr Amanda Chisholm, a senior lecturer on gender and security across both war studies and defence studies. Good morning. Good morning. There we do have you. Good morning.
Starting point is 00:03:58 My first question was around that. And of course, this is the thought that it was deliberate and that it was targeted. And that particular target of a women's and children's, a maternity and children's hospital has taken this to another level. Yeah, I agree. It's certainly very, very upsetting and disturbing to learn about this. I think, you know, I reflected upon your important question, and this is something, you know, gender scholars and feminists who study war and violence do reflect upon, whether
Starting point is 00:04:30 this sort of violence is deliberate, is a particular war strategy, and, you know, the answer is, it's difficult to say specifically at this point in time. You know, I think what's important to acknowledge, though, is that violence and war is always gendered. And so it's always going to impact women, you know, in very specific ways on multiple levels. And so I think when you talk about war strategy and violence against women, you can look at Laura Choburg is an expert in this, who talks about symbolic violence against women. You can look at Laura Choburg is an expert in this who talks about symbolic violence against women and the ways in which gender politics play out in what
Starting point is 00:05:12 she articulates is a battle of masculinities. And so you have the two leaders of Russia and Ukraine who are vying for, you know, who is right, honorable and and legitimate. And part of attacking women is also about emasculating their enemy, right? And so when we attack violence against women, if it's sexual violence, if it's forced displacement, or if it's in this case, a bombing of a maternity and children's hospital, it's a way to, it could be a specific strategy
Starting point is 00:05:46 to emasculate Ukraine and the population and the leader. It also forms though, as we see here, directly violence against women, right? We can directly see the killing and the injury of women. And then we also see specifically how, you know, a war strategy or war itself is gendered and how it indirectly impacts women around forced displacement, around, you know, the women are made to often keep life going, caring for children, caring for elderly, caring for community when it's under siege. And so I think, again, this is a really important question to consider.
Starting point is 00:06:28 But it also has to be considered in a broader continuum of violence against women that happened during peace, during war and in post-war. Well, of course. And also I'm just minded, especially of a message that we had yesterday from one of our listeners, Lisa, I believe she was called, who said, you know, the women are being allowed, take that word of what you will in war circumstances, to leave. Men are not being allowed to get on evacuation trains. So there's also a specific component of how this war and wars affect men. And we'll get onto that actually from the Russian mother's point of view shortly, because that's a force to be reckoned with on that side of things at the moment. But I just wanted to bring that up because if you're talking about gendering, there is no choice for the men as well in this scenario.
Starting point is 00:07:08 But how women are potentially being used or have been used is also something to definitely focus on in the light of this. It's almost a cruel irony after we heard Putin trying to appeal to the women in his country about this and that the war was just and something to be supported. And then I'm also mindful, I'm talking to you only 24 hours after I spoke to a female Ukrainian opposition MP who's just been given a gun. And we saw videos on International Women's Day of Ukrainian women who say they've made their children, if they have them, in safety
Starting point is 00:07:41 and they're now bearing arms. So I suppose this is a very new war with lots of different roles with women in it. Absolutely. And I think, you know, this is where it becomes difficult to assess at this point in time, whether these are deliberate, targeted strategies, right? Because in, you know, what other feminists like Paul Kirby and Marsha Henry talk about the fog of war that happens. Right. That war, you know, before Ukraine, Ukraine was patriarchy, was a patriarchal structure. And what means is that that placed generally women often at the social, political and economic margins. And so war itself then exacerbates that. Right. The gender relations do not go away when war happens.
Starting point is 00:08:25 And, you know, you're highlighting of women picking up arms. This is also an example of how in war we tend to valorize militarism. So we valorize aggression. We valorize that, you know, value comes in strength and strength comes through picking up arms. But if we look empirically across the globe, the more you weaponize, the more arms you bring into an already fragile and violent space, it just exacerbates violence, right? And so I think we also need to be reflecting on what are we valuing? Who are we valuing? And what does that say about how we manage war? And just on this particular strike, which is what is being taken as a
Starting point is 00:09:06 deliberate strike, but we don't know, again, I'll say that on a women's maternity and children's hospital. Do you think it could have the opposite impact when viewed by the wider world? Might it actually make Western countries decide to up their involvement rather than, you know, kind of get to a situation where you demoralise the enemy? It could. And I think that's a really great question, because that also brings in, you know, war is not just framed by gendered tropes of saving women and children, for example, which is also, I want to acknowledge, problematic trope. But it's also framed by race and racialisation, right? So when we see, I guess it depends of the West's appetite for how much violence against Ukrainians happen before they decide, you know, it's important to
Starting point is 00:09:52 step up. But we've seen abhorrent violence against women and against all communities in Syria and Rwanda and Sri Lanka and Nepal, I just can name numerous countries where, you know, the West hasn't intervened, right? And also on the note of women and children evacuating Ukraine, it wasn't until very recently that, you know, already refugees from Afghanistan and from, you know, throughout Africa and Syria, they weren't allowed, they weren't prioritized in evacuating, right? So this was a very, when we talk about women's experience, we also have to talk about there's not a universal woman, that this is also rooted in race, you know, imperialism, for example, sexuality too.
Starting point is 00:10:34 Dr. Amanda Chisholm, Senior Lecturer on Gender and Security across both War Studies and Defence Studies. Thank you. Well, I mentioned women and children in today's headlines and that focus on it, but attention's also been drawn to a group of mothers in Russia who are taking a stand against Vladimir Putin. The soldiers' mothers' committee are seen by some as the sole group with the moral authority to perhaps challenge Putin. What do we know about these women? And could their voices play a role in ending this war
Starting point is 00:11:00 or certainly expediting that? Dr Jenny Mathers is Senior Lecturer in the Department of International Politics at Aberystwyth University and an expert on Russian politics and security. Why did this group start? What is their aim? I think we should start there if you've never heard of them. Yeah, the Committee of Soldiers Mothers is a loose network of civil society organisations that exists in lots of Russian cities right across the country. And they actually started back in the Soviet war against Afghanistan, believe it or not. And it was really a result of mothers' outrage at how their sons were being treated in the army, stories about abuse and bullying and hazing, but also incompetence of leadership
Starting point is 00:11:38 and the fact that the Soviet Ministry of Defense wasn't keeping the families informed about what was happening to their sons. And that tendency, I'm afraid, of the Ministry of Defence to not liaise with families has continued right up into the present moment. And so the Committee of Soldiers really gained strength in the 1990s during the Chechen Wars, when hundreds of mothers actually went to Chechnya to try and find their sons, because they were so outraged and angry with the defence ministry, and they wanted to find their sons. And they ended up meeting with Chechen mothers, and sort of having discussions around peace and the future and so on. So very powerful moral force and one that's been around in Russia for quite some time. The Russian mothers, and they're not
Starting point is 00:12:21 obviously just mothers in this, but in this particular instance, advocating on behalf of their sons. It's safe to say many are absolutely furious about this and others will be in support of the war. But some have been saying that Putin has deployed their sons as cannon fodder, that they haven't been adequately trained. They want to know where their children are. Yeah, absolutely. And to make it even worse, many of these young men actually were conscripts. So Russia is staffed partly through conscription and partly through voluntary service called contract service. And it's against Russian law. And in fact, Putin himself signed a decree saying conscripts will not be sent into combat. And yet, he had to admit just recently
Starting point is 00:13:04 that actually some conscripts had been sent into combat. So that's another thing which really angers the parents that not only are their sons there, but they're absolutely not supposed to be there. And in terms of the impact perhaps these women can have, they can be angry, they can confront officials as they have been doing only days ago. And we also saw, as I mentioned, that appeal from Putin
Starting point is 00:13:24 to women on International Women's Day, a perverse irony, normally a day of celebration, especially with the history of the Soviet era, giving flowers, all of those sorts of things that are horribly different day for Ukrainian women. Will they have any impact? Well, I would say they've already had an impact. We see even in Putin's speech to women on International Women's Day, he wasn't praising them for supporting their soldiers, sons and brothers and husbands in Ukraine. He was asking
Starting point is 00:13:52 them to support their sons, brothers and husbands in Ukraine. So he wasn't taking it for granted that that women's support was there. He was begging for it. He was telling them they should be supporting. So that's already an interesting shift. He's responding to public opinion. But also, I think that the fact that these young men, when they get cutting through the close media control that the state has now imposed in Russia, because it's almost impossible now to get independent sources of media if you're in Russia. But this is one way that the truth can actually get there. And it can get directly to people, ordinary people who might be more likely to support Putin because of their age demographic. And, you know, people talk to each other. They talk to trusted friends and family and co-workers. And this kind of person to person message, I think, is enormously important and really, you know, has a lot of
Starting point is 00:14:56 potential for disturbing the public mood and really disrupting the kind of messages that the Kremlin is desperately trying to get out and to keep out there. Because even if you do know that there is a war on, but you don't know a lot of the detail, you do know that your child or your family member or your husband is not in your house, and you want to know why and you want to know what's going to happen to them. Yes, precisely. Absolutely. And if that... If I may, I was just going to follow on from that. What about the role of daughters in this, the role of women, I suppose, because we have been hearing about Ukrainian women in the armed forces. There are some women in the Russian military, but not very many.
Starting point is 00:15:34 There was a real spike in the numbers of Russian women in the military in the 1990s and the early 2000s when conscription really fell apart. But lots of women didn't have opportunities for jobs in the civilian economies. They flooded into the military. Military didn't know what to do with them. But through a series of reforms and structural changes, actually that number has dropped really dramatically because the military in Russia really didn't value women as soldiers. And so it made no effort to recruit them or to retain them.
Starting point is 00:16:00 So you have quite a small percentage of Russian female soldiers in the military. There's no evidence so far that any of them have been sent to Ukraine, but I'm keeping a close eye out to see if I see any evidence. Whereas in Ukraine, what you've had is a sharp rise, obviously, since the last eight years, since the war in the Donbass started in 2014. More women have wanted to help defend their country and eventually took some prodding. But eventually the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense decided to welcome women in and to start recruiting them. Dr Jenny Mathers, Senior Lecturer in the Department of International Politics at Aberystwyth University. Thank you. Well, to keep with politics, but with a very, very different slant and geography and circumstance right now. But again, I suppose, keeping with the power of
Starting point is 00:16:45 women, there is no First Minister in Northern Ireland at the moment. This is because last month, the former First Minister, the DUP's Paul Given, resigned over Brexit checks on goods. Well, today I'm joined by the woman who effectively lost her job due to that, as the Deputy First Minister due to that move, Sinn Féin's Michelle O'Neill. She's also the Vice President of Sinn Féin, which of course is the largest Republican party in Northern Ireland. An election is coming in May and could Northern Ireland be ready for its first Sinn Féin First Minister, a nationalist in post? She wouldn't be the first woman, of course, to hold that post. That went to the unionist Arlene Foster. Good morning, Michelle, and I wanted to start with
Starting point is 00:17:21 Ukraine just while that is in all of our minds, as it continues to be. As someone who would like to be first minister, what would Russia have to do to force the UK and other countries to intervene on a military basis? Well, good morning, Amanda, and a pleasure to be on your programme this morning. I think it's actually my first time being on Women's Hour. Yes, it's Emma. I'll just say it's hi, it's Emma. I'm sorry, Emma. Amanda was my previous guest. Go on, go on. Tell us what you would say to that. I mean, firstly, let me say
Starting point is 00:17:50 that the military threat that Russia poses is not just to Ukraine. Obviously, the impact is being felt there, but it's being felt by the rest of the Western world and it's a threat to security and peace.
Starting point is 00:18:02 And it is a brutal attack on the sovereignty of Ukraine. And I think that the Western world has to do absolutely everything we can. I am of the school of thought that we do everything we can to encourage diplomacy, to encourage conversation, to encourage our humanitarian response. I think it's crucially important that we open our doors
Starting point is 00:18:21 and welcome all those people that are fleeing the war, conflict, those people that need our support right now. I think the British government's approach has not been far enough. I think we haven't been as welcoming as other countries. And I think that, excuse me, we need to do more. I'm also of the view that we need to ensure that we bring into play, excuse me, the strongest possible sanctions that can end Russian aggression. So I think that there needs to be no stone unturned in terms of the sanctions when to expel those Putin apologists. And that is the response that I expect from government.
Starting point is 00:18:59 It's a response that I think is the appropriate response right now. I think what the scenes that we're watching, the heroin scenes, your previous commentators have spoken to, you know, the reality, the lived experience of women and children right now, everything that's happening to the Ukrainian people. We're all abhorred by that, but we all need to do everything we can and double down on the efforts. In terms of female leadership coming away from, I suppose, those civilians in this position, because we were talking there about the different dimensions of gender and war and politics. Northern Ireland actually has many female political leaders of parties. And looking at how political leaders work together, which is, I suppose,
Starting point is 00:19:39 a theme of what we've just been talking about with regards to response to Ukraine. It is noticeable that you had a productive working relationship with Arlene Foster when she was in post. And I wonder, taking a step back, have you noticed any benefits as a result of so many women leaders? Is it easier to work with a senior woman rather than a senior man from a rival party? Well, I think women bring a different style to politics i think that's that's for sure i mean i worked with arlene i have worked with paul given i've worked with whoever is the leader of of different parties different times i think we are in a sense we are perhaps leading the way in terms of female representation and in terms of leadership where we have the leader of our own
Starting point is 00:20:21 group and myself we have naomi Long in terms of the Alliance Party. We had Arlene at a point in time, but obviously there was a very nasty battle there in terms of leadership within the Democratic Unionist Party itself. But I've always enjoyed a good working relationship
Starting point is 00:20:35 with all of those female leaders. I think we can articulate our difference. We can agree to differ well. I think we can. I think even particularly throughout the pandemic myself and Arlene Foster would have laid together and I think that one of the comments that we would have heard quite frequently was that the people felt particularly families mothers felt nearly
Starting point is 00:20:56 assured that there were women at the helm that there were women that were actually taken to account their needs and I think I think that demonstrated just that you, the kind of politics that you can deliver whenever you work together. Our politics in the North is always a bit more complex, just given the nature of the political journey that we've gone. Yes, it is indeed. And I thought we would reflect a bit on that, because interestingly, the more noteworthy thing about you potentially becoming First Minister
Starting point is 00:21:21 isn't the fact that you're a woman. We've already mentioned Arlene's been in that post. It would be that Northern Ireland potentially elected a Sinn Féin leader, still seen by some as historically the political wing of the IRA. I just think it's ludicrous. I think it's madness that in 2022
Starting point is 00:21:36 that anybody will question my ability to be First Minister. Sorry, it's not your ability. You just talked about your unique history. It's that. It's not that long ago for a lot of people and it will stay in their minds for much longer. Yes, and in four weeks' time,
Starting point is 00:21:52 we'll celebrate 24 years since we signed the peace agreement, a peace agreement that all parties put a lot of effort into ensuring that we delivered. It was the alternative to conflict. It's something that I have worked all of my adult life in. It's something that I passionately believe in. It's something that I have worked all of my adult life in. It's something that I passionately believe in. It's something that this British government and the Democratic Unionist Party
Starting point is 00:22:10 would wish to disregard and throw under the bus. It's something that I will defend fiercely. And in that agreement, it talks about how we move forward together. It is about building the peace. It is about building prosperity. It is about health, housing and jobs.
Starting point is 00:22:26 It is about a better future for us all. Of course, it's just if I may, you know, you've come under criticism several times around this. And in fact, only a few weeks ago for attending a commemoration for three IRA men in your home county, Tyrone. How can you be a leader for everyone, which you said you'll do and go on to those issues while commemorating IRA members? So we all have a right to remember our dead and every mummy's hurt is the same every mummy who has dropped a tear that is the same I will respect the right of everyone to remember their day and I think that's crucially important because you have to understand that whenever you come from a conflict situation we will all have different narratives of the past, very different lived experiences. Mine is certainly a very different lived experience
Starting point is 00:23:07 to that of, for example, Arlene Foster. But we have to recognise that if we're going to reconcile our people, we have to understand that we won't agree, but we have to find ways to deal with the past to ensure that families have access to truth and justice, that families actually have an ability in order to find some closure in the past
Starting point is 00:23:24 so that we don't burden today some closure in the past so that we don't burden today's generation with the past. That's who I am. That's what I bring to the table. That's what I'm very passionate about. But unfortunately, we have a situation where the British government are attempting to bring forward an amnesty that will close off access to justice for everybody who's been hurt. And believe me, there's been so many people that have been hurt and hurt has been done to each other. But we must ensure that this generation don't fight the battle of the past.
Starting point is 00:23:49 I see that bigger point from your point of view. But of course, people would respond to that saying there were pardons that shouldn't have been issued on the IRA side as well. But without getting drawn into that, if I may, because you sound keen to talk also about the future.
Starting point is 00:24:04 How quickly, if you became leader, would you call for a referendum for a United Ireland? So the referendum is built into the Good Friday Agreement, and it will only be the people that will decide when that change will happen. So it's within the gift of the people alone that no one will force anything on anybody. So what, you're not going to mention it if you get in that position, you're not going to try to guide the people? But I want to explain to your listeners just the context in which the referendum can come about. It'll only be the people that will decide. I've said previously that we're in a decade of opportunity. It is time for change. It is time
Starting point is 00:24:39 for us to be able to look towards the future, a better future, because the petition of our island has hurt everybody, each and every one of us, not those of a nationalist background, but each and every one of us, unionists, nationalists and other. And I think that we've all been hurt by the petition and I think that it's time for us to change that. So I believe we're in a decade of opportunity. I believe in the years ahead, it's time for us to plan for constitutional change.
Starting point is 00:25:04 There must be something better for us all. The prize in all of this is to leave behind the sectarianism, the division, the past. It's about building a better future. Of course, but to answer my question, how quickly do you think you could get it to come about? Because you're going to be talking behind the scenes. You're going to be lobbying.
Starting point is 00:25:20 That's what politicians do. Yes, but it's no secret because it's written into the Good Friday Agreement. But it's no secret because it's written into the Good Friday Agreement. I don't think it should be within five years. Why so coy about it? That's what I'm more trying to say. Is it because you know it's off-putting to a lot of voters? I don't believe it's off-putting to a lot of voters. Actually, the contrary.
Starting point is 00:25:38 More and more people are entering into the conversation about constitutional change. You don't have a poll showing that there's a majority for it though, do you? We have't have a poll showing that there's a majority for it though, do you? We have a poll after poll that shows there's an increasing number of people that are actually looking towards constitutional change. Increasing numbers not the same as majority with all due respect. Yes, but there is an increasing number of people that are absolutely interested in constitutional change and that's actually been borne out. It's not just in the world of politics.
Starting point is 00:26:06 More and more people are entering into the conversation, not just those of a nationalist persuasion, but also those from a unionist background who are actually looking to see what, because the choice that's now opened up in the back of the Brexit debate has been, are people interested in that inward-looking Brexit Britain or an outward-looking inclusive Ireland?
Starting point is 00:26:21 That's within the European Union, and that now becomes the big question for a lot of people in going forward. More and more people from civic society are now engaged in the debate and I think that's a very healthy thing. My request is actually of the Irish government. They should now plan for constitutional change. Let's look at what the health service looks like.
Starting point is 00:26:36 An inward-looking United Kingdom who voted majority for Brexit is not how a lot of people would see that. But that is, of course, how you've seen it. You've always been against Brexit. But your point of view... It's actually how the people here have seen it because on a cross-community basis,
Starting point is 00:26:51 the people here in the majority voted to reject Brexit. Yeah, but just because they voted to do that doesn't mean they want, as you want, a united Ireland. I wanted to ask you if Nicola Sturgeon is a role model for you, talking about another strong female nationalist leader. Are you someone who looks to her and what she's been able to do because she's still obviously not been able to achieve the ultimate goal for her well i mean i think we i think you have to have respect for anybody who takes up political leadership particularly women in political leadership
Starting point is 00:27:16 and nicola is a very strong leader no doubt and i think that we look towards what's happening in scotland the people here certainly look towards what's happening in Scotland. The people here certainly look towards what's happening in Scotland, particularly around independence and what that will mean in terms of their second referendum. So all these things are interlinked. I think Brexit has shown that the British government will always prioritise what's in the interest of those people of England, regardless of what it means for those people who live, whether that be in the north of Ireland, Scotland or Wales. Do you think a view of nationalism as macho and divisive is outdated? Because a lot of women are very drawn to it. Yes, it is absolutely outdated. Of course it is. Look at our politics today.
Starting point is 00:27:56 It's a very different space to where we were even whenever the Good Friday Agreement was signed. We talked about the number of political leaders. My own party, my own group in the Northern Assembly itself has over 50% female representation. Over one third of women in the Assembly are now female, which is a big change from where we were in 98 when the Good Friday Agreement was signed.
Starting point is 00:28:15 So the picture is changing. For a long number of years, people were about the peace, betting in the peace, which is absolutely secured and there'll never be any going backwards there. But I think what people want now is the peace, which is absolutely secured and there'll never be any going backwards there. But I think what people want now is the equality, the party of esteem that was actually promised in the Good Friday Agreement. So that's why whenever we're having the conversation
Starting point is 00:28:34 about what potentially could happen after an election, the prospect of a nationalist First Minister, the days of unionism saying that it'll only be politics on their terms or democracy on their terms are gone. That's never going to return. Let me interrogate, especially from the point of view of women, where you are on something that is very important, not just to women, across society. The DUP's position was very clear on this. It's opposed to abortion. What is Sinn Féin's position?
Starting point is 00:28:59 Women need to have access to modern, compassionate health care when they need it. And unfortunately, because of the DUP blocking our ability to legislate to provide abortion services for women, we have had to find ways to go around that. And Westminster had to legislate to decriminalise abortion in the north. And then here we are two years later and the health minister still hasn't commissioned modern, compassionate health care for women. So we've had commitments from the Secretary of State. Before we just go into all of that, if I may, because that's about access and what's actually happening on the ground, I definitely want to hear about that. But you say you sound like you are pro-choice.
Starting point is 00:29:32 So why? I'm pro-healthcare. Okay, however you want to term it, but it's different to the DUP's position. But I want to understand how different, because in March last year, your party abstained on a vote in Stormont to amend Northern Ireland abortion laws, excuse me, to prevent procedures being carried out in the case of non-fatal disabilities. So if you were pro-abortion or pro-healthcare, as you term it, you would have voted against that instead of sitting on the fence. So we have a situation, so let me say this very bluntly we are day and night
Starting point is 00:30:05 in comparison to the DUP who are anti women getting any access to any services any modern compassionate healthcare yeah we know that
Starting point is 00:30:13 the DUP brought what we had because you have to put everything in context what we had was the DUP blocking our ability to bring forward
Starting point is 00:30:20 compassionate laws we had to find a way around that Westminster legislated to decriminalise abortion that westminster legislated to decriminalize abortion laws um apologies so westminster legislated to decriminalize abortion laws also legislated for us to bring forward modern compassionate health care what we had then was a position where the health minister failed to bring forward those services and then we had the
Starting point is 00:30:40 dup bringing forward a singular piece of legislation that would actually even roll back further that what we're trying to do is roll back on any progress that was being made so at that point in time yes that was the call that we made based on our party policy. So vote against it, so vote if you're if you're crystal clear on it aren't you just having to have your trying to have your cake and eat it? No no absolutely not um actually we're the only party that actually stands up for women in that regard. I'm sorry, abstaining is the definition of fence-sitting. It was a point in time where we allowed the piece of legislation to go back into the committee for it to be discussed
Starting point is 00:31:13 and then it came back and we actually voted it down. So we're very clear in terms of where are the party that's actually pushing for modern compassion healthcare system in the north, the DUP or the party that tries to be, or who are actually progressive. You don't need to tell north, the DUP are the party that tries to be, who are actually progressive. You don't need to tell me what the DUP are. I'm very interested in what Sinn Féin is and where you actually stand. So it sounds like you're pro-choice with caveats.
Starting point is 00:31:36 Our party policy is very clear. I mean, I can't be any more crystal clear on it. I think that we are the party that's actually championing women's rights, the rights for services, the right to have the health department provide those services.
Starting point is 00:31:49 So directly mirroring the abortion services that women have in other parts of the country. So directly mirroring. We have the same position across the island, north and south.
Starting point is 00:31:59 And that's the position that was adopted in the Dáil. It's the same position we've adopted in the north. Because you're talking also there, some people are unclear about it. I'm trying to see if we could get that clarity because they look at the voting record and they think that there is a bit of fence sitting.
Starting point is 00:32:13 Yes, but you're taking a voting record at a point in time whilst a piece of legislation was passing through. When it got to the next stage, you know that we were also voted it down. Is it going to be Westminster, which is also a rather, I imagine, ironic position for you to be in because of where you want power to be?
Starting point is 00:32:29 Is it going to have to be Westminster again that stops abortion in Northern Ireland being a postcode lottery, as some women are reporting it? Well, we have unique political circumstances here. So the British government are a code-yarn to our ever-peace agreement and therefore have responsibility to deliver rights and equality. Therefore, in this scenario, whenever the DUP and unions continue to block women's rights, I look towards Westminster and I look towards them legislating.
Starting point is 00:32:54 Does that stick in your throat a bit? How would it stick in my throat whenever it's actually part of the peace agreement? In the sense of the mechanisms that you've got to rely upon. It must be frustrating, if I could rephrase. Yes, that part is frustrating because we have limited powers in the Assembly to do the things that we want to do to serve the public.
Starting point is 00:33:13 And therefore, we have to look towards Westminster. These are the limitations of devolution. These are the limitations of the nature of our politics. We shouldn't have to. Women are entitled to modern, compassionate health care,
Starting point is 00:33:24 progressive rights. Society is entitled to progressive rights. But what we have is a system of governance where the DUP continually block, whether that be women's rights, LGBT rights, rights across the board, anything that's deemed to be progressive, DUP are regressive. We will keep talking to the DUP. You're very good at talking about them and what they're doing. And I'm keen to keep with you. As a Republican, are you going to celebrate the Queen's Platinum Jubilee? Any plans? You've baked a cake? I haven't baked a cake. I'm a keen baker, but I haven't baked a cake. You are? We have wished Queen Elizabeth well for her Jubilee.
Starting point is 00:33:57 And for all those in my community, in my society, that look towards the monarchy then, obviously I wish them well with their celebrations. Thank you very much for talking to us this morning, yes you say first time on Women's Eye, I hope it won't be the last we look forward to talking again and just to say that's Sinn Féin's Michelle O'Neill, of course very recently Deputy
Starting point is 00:34:16 First Minister of Northern Ireland and next week on Wednesday I'll be talking to a leading unionist voiced DUP MLA Diane Dodds so do listen out for that. Now, you don't probably remember the bit in the classic book of Little Women where the characters make very strong cocktails while dressed in hazmat suits.
Starting point is 00:34:35 That's because it's only just been added unofficially by a performance company who have also changed the spelling of women to women with two I's, if you can picture that. That performance company is Figs in Wigs. Part of the Wow London Festival are performing their version of Little Women, which is a series of surrealist skits using the book as a vehicle
Starting point is 00:34:53 to explore some issues relevant to women today. Two of the figs, no wigs though, have just walked into the studio. Sarah Moore, who plays Amy, and Alice Roots, who takes on the character of Beth. Sarah, I thought I'd start with you. Why decide to take on Little Women? Some feel it does not need touching.
Starting point is 00:35:10 Well, yeah, that's true. I think it began as, like most things in Figs and Wigs do, a joke. So we had a show. The show that we were touring was successful. It was OK. It was doing well. It was pretty arty. But it wasn't going to the place that we wanted it to go. And I think we just kind of had this decision that we should do an adaptation. We'll get bigger venues. We will do really well with audiences because they'll know the title of it.
Starting point is 00:35:41 So we just sort of, it was a joke. And then we looked at the book. We read the book. We told a couple of venues that we just sort of it was a joke and then we looked at the book we read the book we told a couple of venues that we were doing it suddenly they were interested in it though we were getting funding so um yeah it began like that a joke but then a commercially savvy decision commercially savvy our first ever commercially savvy uh idea yeah we always support the idea of women getting paid and making sure they get you know an audience for their work uh alice to bring you in at this point i believe um one of the figs actually also couldn't complete the book and disliked it yeah yeah well so like sarah said it sort of started as this joke and then we realized that we actually had to sort of revisit a book that historically we'd all really loved as children um but when you come to it as a as an
Starting point is 00:36:23 adult or when we came to it as an adult Susanna of the company found it exceptionally boring which is something that we kind of all felt but the rest of us were kind of really indulging in the sort of the the idea of putting on this this theatrical story um and so uh we ended up sort of bringing that into our adaptation because our work is quite meta and is always about the processes that we go through in making the work. So the adaptation that we've ended up with is a sort of version that kind of really pulls between revelling in telling the story and putting it on in 2022 versus kind of having to get through the story, which actually feels a little bit outdated or a little bit boring.
Starting point is 00:37:07 So that's, I suppose, the logistics of it. But Sarah, if people haven't seen it, what sort of topics are you trying to bring up through the work? And how, I'm not going to say tell us a joke, but how are you making, you can if you want, how are you making it funny? You know, a lot of people are really enjoying the comedy side of it. Yeah, I think there's quite a few.
Starting point is 00:37:30 I mean, what we think is funny is putting climate change into an adaptation of Little Women. Although climate crisis isn't a funny subject, we have made it quite comical. We do a whole dance where we are wind turbines, or it's sort of a celebration, the power of air. It's an ode to the humble fan and the wind turbine. So that's sort of one theme that runs through there. There is also astrology.
Starting point is 00:37:53 We were really keen to put astrology into Little Women because we, like most of our stuff, when we're obsessed with something that's going on whilst we're in the rehearsal room we have to then put it into the show because then we're not wasting our time making the show it's like it's in the show we've got the so pulling on your own personal interest absolutely so but how to just go back to climate change the wind turbine scene you know how would that fit with little women so what the show does which um what and what we're really proud of, is it sort of takes you on this journey where you don't realise that there's a huge, there's a breakdown that happens. And it starts quite traditionally and then everything sort of disappears. And by the end of the show, you've been spat out and you've been on this sort of chaotic journey.
Starting point is 00:38:42 And sorry, Alice, I felt like you were going to come in there yeah playing the character of beth yeah well also i think that there's this thing again coming back to like reading it from the modern day i think we really identified that louisa malecott seemed like quite a um a forward thinker for her time and i guess that's something with the climate change where we thought it would be interesting to bring in um sort of contemporary issues or things that we felt Louisa May Alcott may have been interested in if she were alive today at the same time all of our work is a satire and a parody so it was kind of how do we address that and bring climate change in to this story in a sort of tongue-in-cheek fashion um and one way that we've done that is by adding a fifth character um which is a tree a talking tree who has um a lot of sort of positions and opinions on the little women um and really doesn't shy away from letting
Starting point is 00:39:36 the audience know about them um 10 points if you can guess who plays uh that character you have to tell us it's Susanna it's Susanna the one who hates the show I'm being led into this little this squad now to get some of the the insights um I wanted to ask about that those who'll be thinking I didn't really want this to be adapted yes there's that commercial decision and there which gets people through the door and you've obviously worked together for a long time now as a troupe, as a performance group. But what would you say to that, that you don't need to change? Just make your own fresh work, Sarah?
Starting point is 00:40:14 Ooh, I don't know. I don't know what we'd say. Because people feel protected. They're protective sometimes, don't they? I don't know if, Alice, you want to comment. I think a lot of purists that have come to see the show have really enjoyed it. I know it doesn't matter if you haven't read the book when you come and see it, but I think you definitely get something
Starting point is 00:40:29 from our show and our perspective and our modern feminist perspective that you wouldn't get from the book. Just an adaptation of it. Yeah, just an adaptation of it. I think it's a refreshing way of looking at Louisa May Alcott's writing, but also collaboration, feminist work. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:40:50 Five women working together, choreography. There's loads in there that you would get that you wouldn't necessarily get from just a straight up adaptation. Definitely. our work in general um i think that it's always interesting to kind of go between making original material and then making original material from you know sources and we saw a lot of parallels between this kind of collective of identities that are the march sisters and then the collective of identities that are figs and wigs and you know for a moment to make a show that kind of makes, that uses a kind of canonical classic story to make something new felt really, really interesting. And then you all appear at the beginning standing very tall with wigs on. Why is it called, why are you called Figs in Wigs?
Starting point is 00:41:38 I know we're talking about Little Women, your latest production. We're called Figs in Wigs originally because it rhymed. Yeah, we had this idea we met we met uh over 10 years ago now and we we had a sort of shared love of um a certain sort of absurdist sense of humor and dance and live art and so we decided to make a company together but our first challenge was getting um a vote winning a vote to be taken to Edinburgh Fringe Festival by our university theatre society. So what better way to beat the system than make a really catchy name?
Starting point is 00:42:14 And it worked. I love that it's that simple. You know, sometimes it's a very deep sort of emotional story. Yeah. But no. No, no. I mean, there was obviously, you know, we landed on the term, on the word figs because in medieval literature, it's symbolic of femininity.
Starting point is 00:42:30 And there were all there were these sort of ideas going through the thought process. But ultimately, figs in wigs. And the other thing I was going to say, Sarah, just finally was was, of course, with Little Women going back to that. There aren't that many productions you could draw on or that many writings that have that many roles for women that's also another part of it I imagine. Absolutely definitely and I think that was one of the reasons we sort of stuck with Little Women when we had the joke we need to do an adaptation we're like well which one should it be oh look Little Women there's four sisters and one mommy perfect. You on. Well, it's going to open at the WOW Festival on the 13th of March. Prior to a UK tour, the WOW Women of the World London 2022 Festival
Starting point is 00:43:10 is going to be running from the 11th to the 13th of March at London's South Bank Centre. Thank you very much. Good luck with it. Lots of energy there and a talking tree. What more could you wish for? A message here that just says, to women's eyes, so interesting to hear about the Russian soldiers' mothers.
Starting point is 00:43:24 Wouldn't it be great if all mothers around the world could unite? We don't realise the power we have. I've heard of cases where a woman has stopped a man from assaulting her by saying, what would your mother say if she could see you now? Deep down, men are terrified of the power of mothers, and rightly so. Another message there,
Starting point is 00:43:40 Alison, responding to, of course, what's still leading the news and I'm sure will be a major point of this war, that airstrike on a children's and maternity hospital in Ukraine's Maripol, says perhaps Putin is trying to goad the West into retaliating and starting a major world conflict with such a potential target as we understand it. But let me tell you about who's just walked into the studio. In 2016, Rachel Denhollander became the first woman to publicly accuse the USA Gymnastics doctor Larry Nassar of sexual assault. Her stand led to hundreds of other women coming forward to tell their stories of how Nassar had also abused them under the guise of medical treatment. A situation that's been described as the biggest sex abuse scandal in sports history.
Starting point is 00:44:30 Their testimony, as well as the discovery of tens of thousands of child sexual abuse images on his computer, eventually led to his imprisonment. Rachel Denhollander, thank you very much for joining us. And I should say, you're going to talk, I know, not in particular detail, but some of the experiences some of our listeners may find difficult. And I just wanted to say that as the outset, but a very warm welcome and good morning. Thank you so much for having me. I've really been looking forward to it. Well, I wanted to say on Twitter,
Starting point is 00:44:49 you describe yourself in your biography as part of the army that took down Larry Nassar. An army is a very particular choice of word. Is that how it felt that you were fighting? Oh, absolutely. Because as all survivors know, when you come forward about a prominent abuser, you're not just fighting your abuser, you're fighting the community that has surrounded
Starting point is 00:45:09 him. You are fighting oftentimes a law enforcement and a prosecutorial team that is poorly trained or doesn't understand trauma. Our rates for convictions of child abusers and sex abusers are incredibly low, both in the UK and in the United States, you are fighting a system and a cultural perception just as much as you're fighting an abuser. Of course, you didn't know any of that, perhaps when you decided to go forward, you learn on the job, as it were, you know, it's a big job, but you have to take the decision in the first place to speak. And you really are in the position of being the first. What was behind your decision to speak? Actually, in my case, I was very keenly aware.
Starting point is 00:45:48 As a trained attorney, I was aware of what I would be fighting from a legal perspective and how investigations usually go. I understood that I would be fighting a major university in the United States and USA Gymnastics, the national governing body for our Olympic team who Larry worked for. I understood I'd be fighting all of those things. I understood the cultural perception. And at 17 years old, when I started to figure out what Larry was doing, I said to my mom at the time, I can't do this alone. I have to have media pressure. Somebody is going to have to wrest control of the narrative from Larry and from the institutions surrounding him in order to be able to stop him. And so for 16 years, that's what I was waiting for. I was waiting for my chance to be able to take control of the narrative, to meet Larry where he was most
Starting point is 00:46:27 confident on the public stage and to show him irrevocably I was not going to blink. And so when I chose to come forward, I chose to come forward fully publicly with my name. I put the case together for the prosecutors. I brought it to the police and I laid out for them. This is how you can investigate this case. This is how you can try this case. And I chose to make my story and my face an international headline because I knew that's what was going to be necessary to stop not just Larry, but these institutions that had surrounded him. Were you nervous? No one wants to have an audience to their sexual abuse. And I think that's something we need to grapple with as a culture is how do we start changing our justice system and our cultural understanding of abuse so that we don't put victims in a position where they have no choice but to relinquish every shred of privacy and dignity to have just a hope of stopping an abuser. You gave a final statement to the court before the judge handed down her sentence, and we just wanted to play a section of that. pleasure in little girls and women being sexually injured and violated because he liked it. And as I and so many other women and little girls were being violated, Larry found sexual satisfaction in our swearing.
Starting point is 00:47:57 As we were being sexually violated, even as very young children, as young as six years old, Larry was sexually aroused by our humiliation and our pain. He asked us how it felt because he wanted to know. What was done to myself and these other women and little girls and the fact that our sexual violation was enjoyed by Larry matters. It demands justice. And the sentence you impose today will send a message about how much these precious women and children are worth. It's very difficult listening. It's just a part of that.
Starting point is 00:48:33 He did go to prison and has received numerous sentences as things have developed and many, many more women came forward. And I think just it's important to clarify if people aren't familiar with this case, the abuse was done under the guise of medical therapy and trying to aid sports performance. You were 15, a child. When did you realize what he was doing was wrong? So there was a line he crossed when I was 16 that I knew was sexual abuse. But it really was years of researching what proper medical treatment should look like before I was able to confidently really know how far it went. And I think that's something we have to grapple with culturally is how skilled abusers are, how well they're able to manipulate the society around
Starting point is 00:49:15 them and the culture around them, and the way that they're able to groom their victims. We don't understand these dynamics well. And so we don't listen when children and women speak up, and we automatically have these cultural knee-jerk reactions of that's not possible. And it's not possible because this person wouldn't be that kind of an abuser or sexual abuse doesn't look like this. When in reality, we're doing exactly what the abuser wants us to do. And the things that we think are making it impossible for abuse to happen, those are the very dynamics that have created this framework for the abuse to take place.
Starting point is 00:49:49 You competed in gymnastics at a state level in Michigan where Larry Nassar's base was, but he abused hundreds of girls and women up to the senior elite level. Of course, people may remember one of the most successful US gymnasts, Simone Biles, coming out to talk about what had happened to her and making a very emotional statement and putting a written one out as well. I reread it this morning. It's also incredibly powerful. Did you have any idea of the scale of the abuse when you were starting to talk?
Starting point is 00:50:16 Absolutely. Because once you understand the dynamics of sexual abuse, you know that predators don't just abuse one child. And so I was 100% confident that there were going to be hundreds of victims out there. I was very confident that we would find corruption in law enforcement, which is exactly what we found. Five different law enforcement offices were involved in either covering up for Larry's abuse or horribly botched police investigations. And that's why I chose to come forward so publicly. And what it took, I think that's, again, culturally, we don't understand the incredible hurdle survivors face.
Starting point is 00:50:49 And that's part of why I wrote my memoir, What Is A Girl Worth, is to help people see, look, this is what's going on behind the scenes. Look what it took to stop such a serial abuser. Look what was happening in law enforcement and in prosecution. And to really put a name and a face with these dynamics to help people start understanding what's really going on. And we love all these true crime dramas on TV and we love these police shows, but what we've got to understand is there are survivors and victims on the other end of those dynamics and law enforcement doesn't work like it looks on these TV shows. And so to
Starting point is 00:51:23 be able to put those dynamics out there for people to start grappling with and to understand, it's a fascinating story what it took to take Larry down. But it's also dynamics we've got to grapple with if we're going to make the necessary changes in our justice system and in our society, in our athletic organizations, and our universities, and our religious denominations to actually take a stand against child abuse and sex abuse. How did you feel when Larry Nassau went to prison? I am incredibly grateful for the justice that we received. Most survivors don't get that. And so I don't want to minimize the importance of that. At the same time, he's one individual.
Starting point is 00:51:58 And as much as we want to say, oh, this is one bad apple, The reality is that Larry was a product of an abusive system. He was a product of a cultural perception and understanding of what abuse looks like and what abusers look like. He was a product of organizations that had created abusive dynamics and silencing dynamics in the state university and in USA Gymnastics and just a community that does not understand what abuse looks like. And we've got to grapple with all of the things that caused and created Larry. No, of course, but I suppose for you, that must have been a moment. You know, it was. And again, I'm incredibly grateful for it. But it was also this realization of how much work is left to be done. We have taken care of one
Starting point is 00:52:43 abuser. And I said this in my impact statement, we have taken care of one abuser. And I said this in my impact statement, we have taken care of one abuser. We have not yet done anything about the systems that enabled him. And I can remove one person, but I can't do anything about the next predator that rises to take his place unless we dismantle the systems
Starting point is 00:52:58 and the cultural perceptions that are enabling this kind of abuse. I mean, there have been high level departures with regards to this particular case. And it was, of course, at the heart of it, like you're saying, how USA Gymnastics dealt with this and allegations. But do you think enough has been done?
Starting point is 00:53:14 Not nearly enough has been done because most of these organizations, there were individuals who resigned, but there has been no level of accountability and transparency for who actually knew what and when at either organization. There are people involved, coaches involved, administrators involved who were there during the time of Nassar's abuse who saw acknowledge the framework and the foundation and the culture that was the breeding ground for Larry's abuse and that enabled it for decades.
Starting point is 00:53:51 I know that also forgiveness is a big part of you and how you work and how you feel. You said in your closing statement and another part, I pray you experience a soul-crushing weight of guilt so that you may someday experience true repentance and true forgiveness. This directed at Larry from God, which you need far more than forgiveness from me, though I extend that to you as well. How did you get to that place? I know that your faith is very important to you here, in fact, in the UK at a talk organized on behalf of a Christian group, I believe. Yes, I'm here with All Souls and I'll be doing a lecture tonight, a question and answer session with Pillar and Step, looking at some of those foundational concepts of who am I? What is my identity? Where does my value come from? Especially if I've
Starting point is 00:54:33 experienced abuse, what is forgiveness? What is justice? How do we hold those two things in tension? And so my faith is a very important part of that driving force and also my healing journey. How is that? Because we don't often hear a lot about what happens afterwards and how people are once they have come forward. The trauma from abuse lasts forever, and I don't want to minimize that in any way, shape or form. An incredibly important part of my healing journey was the ability to say this is wrong and I know this is wrong. And I found that in my faith and my moral compass. C.S. Lewis has this famous quote in Mere Christianity where he said, my argument against God was that the universe was so cruel and unjust. But where did I get this
Starting point is 00:55:14 idea of just and unjust? A man does not know a line is crooked unless he first has some idea of straight. And when I really grappled with that reality, that gave me the ability to say, I do know sexual abuse is wrong. I know what happened to me is wrong because I can see the straight line. I know justice is there. And if I can name what happened to me and I can grieve it in ways that are non-destructive and not feel like justice is dependent on the societal response I receive or validation for my abuse, that gives me the ability to name it without minimizing it or excusing it and to grieve it in ways that are non-destructive. And that's a foundational concept to healing. You've obviously had to do a lot of thinking, a lot of talking
Starting point is 00:55:56 about this. You've written about it. Just zooming out, if I may, I wonder where you've ended up with on the thoughts that you've had about the pressure in gymnastics still. We've seen the Russian athlete Kamila Valiva, the 15 year old Russian ice skater at the Winter Olympics last month. She was allowed to compete despite failing a drugs test and then fouled up under the stress. She missed up on the top slot and we saw her coach then publicly berating her after the performance. How do you feel about the training of children? The way we train children in these elite institutions is just, it's abusive. There's no other word for it. The level of verbal and emotional and physical abuse is incredibly
Starting point is 00:56:36 damaging to our children. It literally reshapes their neurobiology. It damages their sense of self-worth, their sense of identity, their sense of normalcy and what's acceptable. And so many of these elite athletes, including in the UK, are coming out of gymnastics and coming out of ice skating. And they're talking about the impact this has had on them, the eating disorders and the suicidal ideations and the self-harm. And just how their entire perception of reality was crushed by these abusive organizations. Do you think we'll get to a stage where we don't train children? Because of course, some would argue you have to do that to make them win. I would say if you have to abuse a child to reach an end goal, you have the wrong end goal. I mean, they wouldn't say, sorry, abuse a child, but they have to do some of these tough
Starting point is 00:57:17 sorts of conversations. I'm not describing it perhaps in the best way, but you get what I mean. Absolutely. So I think what we first have to do is say, what are we actually talking about? We're not talking about a tough conversation. All of us need tough conversations. We are talking about child abuse. The way so many of these coaches treat their athletes, the systems and the structures these organizations set up, it is child abuse.
Starting point is 00:57:37 It is verbal abuse. It's emotional abuse. It's psychological abuse. You don't want to do away with the competitions. It's the way that people are trained. It's the way children are trained. You know, athletics has so much potential when the coaching is and give so much to people's lives rachel that's all the time i've got time for now rachel denhollander thank you so much
Starting point is 00:57:53 thank you to you back tomorrow at 10 that's all for today's woman's hour thank you so much for your time join us again for the next one all right here, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds,
Starting point is 00:58:13 I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that. Dance, it really, I think, saved my life. Join me, Oti Mabuse, as I delve into the lives of the innovators and the mall breakers who have changed dance forever.
Starting point is 00:58:27 Gene Kelly was this working class guy that I just really connected with that. Ultima Busse's Dancing Legends on Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. This podcast is sponsored by WISE, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use WISE. This podcast is sponsored by Wise, the app for doing things in other currencies. If you're sending or spending money abroad, you should use Wise. You'll have up to 40 currencies in the palm of your hand. Wise gives you the real exchange rate, which means you'll spend less on fees and more of your money gets where you need it to be. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com.
Starting point is 00:59:05 T's and C's apply. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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