Woman's Hour - Financial planning, Susan Cronin, Friends forever - Christina, Finding my voice - Liz Roberts

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

You might have spent this first week of January planning where you want to go, what you want to do and who you want to be in 2023 But have you made any financial new year’s resolutions. Statistics show that more than a third of us will make a financial new year’s resolution this year. Will you be ‘manifesting’ money in the year ahead? Anita Rani is joined by the consumer editor of the Financial Times and presenter of the FT's Money Clinic podcast, Claer Barrett as well as the budget savvy mum, Gemma Bird also known as @MoneyMumOfficial on social media.A new ITV documentary, A Murder in the Family, re-lives three shocking murders in the UK as told by the family members closest to the events. One of those is Jennifer Cronin, who was 72 when she was killed by her daughter’s ex-husband, Kieren Lynch. In March 2018, Kieren went to Jennifer’s house and set himself and Jennifer on fire, resulting in both of them dying from their injuries. Jennifer’s daughter Susan witnessed the incident and speaks to Anita Rani. Over the last few months we have been exploring the joys and difficulties of female friendship. When a friendship goes wrong can you fix it and should you try? A listener we are calling Christina contacted us to say she has lost three long-standing friendships in the last four years. This is her side of the story, she acknowledges that, but she is asking herself some big questions. Jo Morris went to meet her.In our series Finding My Voice we’re talking to women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. In 2020, Liz Roberts chose to report the sexual assault she suffered at the hands of her brother 50 years previously, when she was just 8 years old. During the legal proceedings, she chose to waive her right to anonymity – a right which is automatically granted to victims of sexual offences in the UK. She joins Anita Rani to discuss the choice to use her name and why, since her brother’s sentencing, she’s continued to speak publicly about her story.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. It's Friday's Woman's Hour. We have made it to the end of the first week of January 2023. And this morning, we're feeling very inspired at Woman's Hour HQ by Sergeant Catherine Kaywood of Happy Valley. If you don't know, I'm about to change your life. It's a brilliant BBC TV drama set in West Yorkshire

and it's back on our screens for its third and final series. Here's a clip. Have a listen. Right, has everyone got a drink? Richard, what do you fancy? Catherine, who's is that thing outside? It's mine. I've just bought it. Seriously? You paid money for it? What is it? Have you not seen it? Yeah, I'm going to do it up and then I'm going to do what I've just bought it. Seriously? You paid money for it? What is it? Have you not seen it?

Yeah, I'm going to do it up and then I'm going to do what I've always fancied doing. I'm going to drive to the Himalayas. What have you bought, Mum? It's a Land Rover. Anyone else fancy jumping into the passenger seat for that trip to the Himalayas? Me, please.

So this morning, like I said, we've been inspired. I want to hear about your big plans to do something just for you. That thing you have always had on the bucket list, but have never got round to. Maybe this is the year you finally go for it. I want to hear the plans and crucially, why you want to do it. Have you recovered from an illness and can't wait to travel? Have you finally retired and made a promise to yourself that you're going to learn to paint like Turner or finally play piano or even just learn the chords to Wuthering Heights? That's my plan. Has your divorce come through and you want to go and live your best life? What does that look like? Are you going to get yourself fit once and for all, dye your hair blue or join the circus? This morning, inspire me with your positive plans for the year ahead. Or if or join the circus this morning, inspire me with your

positive plans for the year ahead. Or if indeed you've already done it, made a change and never looked back, have you been on the world tour, climbed Kilimanjaro or Snowdonia, learnt the language or the instrument or simply learnt how to boil an egg? What have you done or want to do just for you and you alone, for your self-nourishment. Could there be a better reason to do anything? Get in touch with me in the usual way. The text number 84844. Your text will be charged at your standard message rate. So check all the charges. Contact us on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. Email through the website or if you want to send me a voice note or a message, it's 03700 100 444. And like I i said check all your terms and conditions

on our website if you need to also on the program this morning we're talking finance solid practical sensible advice from two experts about how to make the best of the money we have of course if you have any questions or any concerns about the state of your bank balance send them my way the text number 844 844 and the last in our series of interviews with women who find their voice. Today, a very powerful story from a woman who was finally, after 50 years of shame and silence, able to talk publicly about how her older teenage brother abused her when she was only eight years old and he was eventually charged for the crime. Like I said, if you want to get in touch with us about anything you hear on the programme, please do. Your thoughts, opinions, always welcome.

84844, the text number. But first, a new ITV documentary, A Murder in the Family, pieces together three shocking murders in the UK as told by the family members closest to the events. One of those is the story of Jennifer Cronin, who was 72 when she was killed by her daughter's ex-husband, Kieran Lynch. Just want to let you know some of the details of this story are disturbing. Jennifer's daughter, Susan, had

separated from Kieran following a difficult last few years in their marriage. When Susan asked for a divorce, Kieran became increasingly violent and was very threatening towards her. In the months leading up to Jennifer's murder, Kieran sent a string of violent text messages to Susan and went to the family home with a hammer threatening to kill her. He was arrested for criminal damage but continued to call the family up to 80 times a day and even threatened to kill one of his daughters. In March 2018, Kieran turned up in Jennifer's garden and set her and himself on fire, resulting in both of them dying from their injuries.

Jennifer's daughter, Susan, witnessed the incident from inside the house and Susan joins me now on the programme. Morning, Susan. Thank you so much for coming on to speak to me i watched the program last night it's very shocking and ultimately heartbreaking to watch i'd like to know why you wanted to tell your story um i think we felt as a family um extremely let down by the police and the authorities. This didn't happen randomly. It didn't happen all of a sudden. This was a catalogue of events that built up to that point.

And I am convinced if Kieran had been stopped, arrested earlier on the line my mum would still be here and and he would still be here i'm sure i'm sure he would have got the right help as well um he was clearly very very ill and you know mentally disturbed and we'll get into what happened and how it happened and the contact with the police and their responses or lack of responses at certain points But before we do, I think we should go to the beginning a little bit so the audience understand You were together with Kieran for 30 years, he was your childhood sweetheart wasn't he? You were 17 when you met. Yes, yeah, he was my first boyfriend. I met him when I was 17. We married when I was 21. Yeah, we were together 30 years, married nearly 24 years. And you see, and I guess this is what makes it so moving and heartbreaking,

is because we get such an insight into your life together. We see home videos of the family on holiday, the four of you with your two young daughters, and you say he was a loving husband, he was a great father. But then what changed? He became, he would like a drink, which increased as he sort of struggled with things in life say work or sort of stresses that we all have to go through and he would turn to alcohol but he wasn't a pleasant drinker um it would change his personality it would make him quite aggressive um and then he went on to drugs when he sort of escalated

into taking cocaine which when i found out it was really shocking wasn't wasn't our world wasn't something i had much knowledge of or um yeah it was quite quite a shock. He did go through periods of rehab in the last three to five years of our marriage. So rehab, counselling, he would get better, he would get on track and then it would get hold of him again and he would start again. I think really he was going through a mental breakdown as well and was just generally struggling and the drugs I think affected him very, very badly. And you separated and then you met someone else and told him that you wanted a divorce. Yes. Yeah. We'd been separated for of 20 months and um yeah I started to date again and I met somebody I met my fiance Mike um so yeah I I wanted to be honest at that point I

felt um we'd been separated quite a while things weren weren't great. They weren't amicable. He was, I'd say, just there was a nuisance maybe. He would text. He would sort of turn up at the house. It was a great separation. When did it get to the point where you felt that you had to contact the police? When did him being a nuisance become something more serious? In the January, on January the 11th, the day before on the 10th

I'd met him to actually sort of speak, to talk about going through with a divorce, to take this more seriously. I needed to get things sorted out for the girls and myself and Kieran so that we all knew where we were. And that was quite an amicable meeting. But the next morning he started to text quite abusive texts, sort of goading texts. And then he asked in the text uh have you met somebody um and I didn't want I didn't want to lie I wanted to be honest um I know Kieran had

met somebody before he'd been dating so I I did say yes I have met somebody um it's still very important that you know it's early days but he's a nice guy the girls have met somebody. It's still very important that, you know, it's early days, but he's a nice guy. The girls have met him. They like him, but you are their dad. They will always love you. You just need to be a good dad for the girls. How did he react?

He literally drove up onto the driveway. He appeared from nowhere. So he'd obviously been in the road sitting texting which I was unaware of and um he started screaming and shouting at the front door to to let him in um and then he went to the back of his van he was a builder he um so he's in a van and he went and got a sledgehammer and was starting to hammer on the door, started to try and undo the joints of the door to try and break in, screaming, shouting abuse at me. And how many times, because that was the first time you called the police, how many times did you contact the police up until the point he came and murdered your mum? That was January the 11th and he murdered my mum on March the 13th. God, I don't know how many times.

I know for sure the night before it was eight times, eight times the night before um oh it must have it must have been at least 30 times um I had witness statement after witness statement where he broke bowel conditions had a restraining order for him not to come after the January incident not to come to the road not to contact me unless it was anything to do with my youngest daughter um but he constantly broke bowel conditions um he would neighbors would see him in the road um he would constantly call um you know sort of a couple of days I had 50 no caller ids on my phone um just to hang up. And throughout the documentary, we hear from Essex Police.

In fact, I've got a statement from them, which I will read out at the end of our conversation. But they admit that mistakes were made. How does that make you feel? Yeah, they are disgusted, absolutely disgusted let let down they the police are there to serve and protect and um we were quite vulnerable my my mum was quite fragile we'd lost my dad 18 months beforehand um i haven't got any family brothers or sisters um it was just my mum and my two daughters and obviously I I turned to the police in desperation to be protected to be looked after and they let us down time after time I mean mistakes where they didn't report that there was a minor living at the address, which would have been my younger daughter, leaving off his name on a handover sheet.

Yeah. Facts. No, no, it's just, it comes across, it's very powerful to watch because they, like I said, they talk about the mistakes that were made throughout the programme. And I will read that statement out. But in terms of what Kieran did to you

by targeting your mum, he knew justieran did to you by targeting your mum, he knew just how very close you were to your mum, didn't he? Yes. Do you think he did that specifically to hurt you? I do. Yeah, I do. When we were in the coroner's, I had mixed feelings. I didn't know why he would have targeted my mum

because they did have a good relationship prior to the breakdown of our marriage and my mum never got involved after but when we were in the coroner's court hearing all the facts where everything is peeled back and looked at factually I do believe he did this um he did target my mum to hurt me to get to me the most I think he always intended to end his own life but to take my mum with him is is horrific but it would have been the biggest hurt for me because we were were extremely close we were a little team my mum yeah myself and my two girls and and it's it's a really shocking but also very powerful um start to um the documentary because we we hear you talking to the

police when he's come to the house and you're you're you can hear the panic in your voice that you don't know what's happening to your mum and then you go to the garden Susan and you see your mum and what he's done to her yeah it's um yeah even when I listen to it now and I've obviously watched the program a few times the fear um I was absolutely petrified um and the call handler was amazing and keeps you on on the line and obviously she says don't go into the garden don't go back into the garden because I ran I ran from the house in fear on 999 and when I but you do your instinct is to go straight back in to your mum to you know something clicks to think I've got to see where she is and yes when, when I came back into the garden, it was horrific.

It was absolutely heartbreaking. This happens to other people. This happens like what we're experiencing now on a documentary. You don't expect this ever to happen to you. I was also really moved by the moment, because your eldest daughter isn't part of it but your younger daughter is also interviewed throughout the documentary and she um went into the garden and she whilst her dad was there having set himself and your mom alike to say i love you to her dad oh she Oh, she was at the hospital.

At the hospital. Yeah, sorry, at the hospital to talk to her dad. Yeah, she says that in the film. Yeah, I think that was important because we were told that he would pass away. He wouldn't survive the evening. And it was important that the girls did go in and speak to him um I went in first of all with the girls I went in with them and spoke to him he was obviously under an awful lot of medication um but they told us he could hear us and I was with the girls and we spoke to him and then I left the girls in there

with him and they went back in as as he passed away as well. How are you coping because you're not only dealing with your own grief on so many different levels this happened to your mum by your ex-husband but you're also having to be there as mum for your two daughters whose father did this. Yeah, it's been really, really hard. It has been very tough. We have had to go through an awful lot of counselling. My relationship with my oldest daughter broke down completely at the beginning. Everybody deals with grief very differently. And we really struggled um we now have a brilliant relationship they're absolutely amazing the girls i'm so proud of them they're doing very

well in life um but it has been really hard it has been a real real struggle um you know the nightmares the flashbacks just coming to terms with losing well when I say losing everybody is losing everybody because you you lose the man that was the father of your children and I've lost my mum um yeah yeah, it's absolutely heartbreaking. Is talking about it helping? Having done the documentary and talking to me even, does this help? Yes, for me, definitely, it does help. I think my anger at the police of how things were handled so badly, were such simple mistakes, simple steps, that what they didn't do was really quite shocking.

Just care and thought of, have I done the right thing for that family when I've done a victim's treat with them? Have I protected them? Have I done this? Have I done the right thing? My anger at them for not even reporting things. And then when the next incident would happen and I would call up, I'd have to go through the whole situation again

because I wasn't on the system or things had been left off. And I know Essex Police have changed policies I know they've put a lot of things in place which is good but it doesn't help my mum it doesn't help us um we have to live with that um I want to thank you uh Jennifer for coming on the program to speak to me this morning. And if you would like to watch that programme, A Murder in the Family is streaming now exclusively on ITVX. Susan, thank you so much for speaking to me. And as I said, we do have a statement from Essex Police.

Detective Superintendent Stephen Jennings from Essex Police gave us this in relation to Jennifer's murder, saying that since Jennifer's tragic death five years ago, domestic abuse crimes are falling. We've hundreds more officers who are dedicated to keeping people safe and catching criminals, and we have invested significantly in our training and in specialist teams. I've met Susan and apologised to her for what happened in 2018. I've personally invited her to come and talk to our new teams.

We want to work together to make Essex an even safer place to live, to make sure we prevent crimes in the future. We admire her and her family's bravery in speaking out about what Kieran Lynch did to her and her family. That's why we took part in the TV programme too. We've also reviewed our approach to the way we identify our high-risk domestic abuse perpetrators, building an evidence-backed database that looks at multiple markers including jealousy stalking and history of violence we've built whole new teams to support victims and manage risks from perpetrators we are far stronger we are a far stronger force than we

were five years ago in every way um thank you once again to um susan for speaking to me about that 84844 is the number to text if you would like to comment on anything you hear on the programme today. And lots of you getting in touch about your big plans for the new year, just for you, just for you, just for self-nourishment, purely for that. No other reason, no better reason.

I'm 70 this year and I've decided to learn to speak Yiddish. I'm enjoying the learning, but I do feel some regret that I didn't do it when I was young and my Yiddish-speaking grandpa was alive. He would have loved to speak with me. He spoke English utterly fluently, also Russian, but Yiddish was his mother tongue. Nice that you're doing it alone has stopped me. I'm 27, love walking. There is so much beautiful English countryside. Yes, there is. I've never explored with marked trails. Doing so solo, having to navigate, be present, alone and overcome

any issues on the way would be an empowering experience. Do it, Emily. And then come on Woman's Hour to talk to me about it. Now, new years, new resolutions, new you. You might have spent the first week of January

planning where you want to go. I week of january uh planning where you want to go i know lots of you are but you also um might need some money to do it so financial resolutions might be being made statistics have shown that more than a third of us 35 percent will make a financial new year's resolution this year will you be manifesting money in the year ahead well joining me with their financial planning tips are the consumer editor of the financial times and presenter of the fd's money clinic podcast claire barrett um who was also on our woman's hour cost of living panel and and is in the studio which is always nice lovely to see you claire and on zoom the budget savvy mum jemma bird also known as at mum at money mum official on social media welcome both of you welcome um nice to see you and now

you both speak to people every week about their real life money dilemmas so let's start by talking about some of the main financial struggles people have at the minute what are you seeing time and time again let's start with you jemma what what people yeah um thanks for having me on um yeah the main thing i'm finding is that it's affecting everybody it's not just people that are on a low income it's people that are on quite a good income because obviously mortgage rates petrol gas electric food absolutely everything has gone up you know some people's bills have gone up nearly a thousand pounds with like gas and electric going up to sort of 400 pounds a month their mortgages may have gone up so what i have noticed is a massive shift on people that were on say like what i would what

most of us would consider a really good income are struggling as well it's not just affecting sort of people on a lower income and i know more people are coming into my inbox saying they need to use things like food banks um and getting into more debt and putting more on their credit card or going into their overdraft and can't get out of it every month because simply there's not enough coming in for going out because obviously it's disgraceful how much gas and electric and everything has gone up. You know, people's wages haven't gone up that much. So, you know, you're not talking about people having to find

an extra £50 to £100 a month. Yes, they can make tweaks for that. But a lot of people, it's up to nearly £1,000 a month now. So you're nodding away there, Claire. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is affecting people of all income levels. And basically the solutions that we've got are cut back more. Lots of people haven't got anything more to cut back.

Raid our savings. Lots of people don't have savings. Millions of people, according to the financial regulator, or take on more debt. And I think that's going to be one of the biggest problems that we're going to see in the year ahead as households become more and more indebted. We can already see from the Bank of England's data that credit card spending is shooting up. And a lot of that is spending on essentials rather than nice to haves. Now, another area that I know a lot of women are cutting back

on is paying into their pension. Now, if we can't get our incomes to rise, if we can't get the pay rise we want, cutting back what we pay into our workplace pension, it might feel like a good idea, might feel like the only option for some people, but it's effectively signing up for a pay cut because you're losing that free money that your employer is putting in towards retirement. And that's storing up massive problems for the future. We've already got to battle the gender pay gap, the gender pensions gap. Women on retirement at the moment have on average two thirds of the pension savings of the average man. And that figure is only going to get worse because the cost of living crisis is disproportionately affecting us. I've got these two financial mega brains here.

So if you do have any questions, then feel free to get in touch. As you've brought up pensions there, Claire, there is something called the pensions dashboard that's coming into place in 2023. What is that and how will that impact us financially as women? Well, overall, I think it's a good idea, the pensions dashboard, but we've had to wait a really long time for it. Lots of people, every single job they have, the average person has eight over the course of their lifetime. Younger people probably have many more, you will get a company pension, but do you have track of all of them? Do you know what you've got as your total number of things saved up for retirement? And the idea of the dashboard is that you'll easily be able to see all of your pensions in

one place and crucially, not lose track of them because there are tens of billions of pounds worth of pensions that are kind of lost, quote unquote. People have moved house, they haven't told the pensions provider about their new address. So I think it will really focus people on pension saving, which is great. But the challenge to the pensions industry is have they got the level of customer service in place to really keep in touch with us and deliver on what could be a brilliant idea? Because in my experience the level of customer service in the pensions world is pretty appalling we'll we'll save that chat for another day just uh customer service full stop um uh we want um we want to be realistic which we are being here but we also want to give people maybe a bit of hope and some advice uh so jemma what

let's talk about some financial resolutions, tips on how we can maybe save a bit of money and how we can stick to our financial resolutions. Yes, certainly. As I said before, it's not easy. I wish I had a magic wand and I wish the government would change some things. But, you know, we can only, we can't control that. We can only control ourselves. So like I've said to everybody, now there isn't a magic wand out there i wish there was and i wish something was done but we can only sort of take steps you're not doing it ourselves so obviously the main step is making sure loads of people always know what they've got coming in a month they'll happily say oh you know i take home two thousand pounds a month for example when you say to people what's going out

a lot of the time they're sort of stunned they're like um well my mortgage is uh 1200 uh so it's about going through absolutely everything i'm not just talking about your mortgage your gas electric it's about looking for patterns you know when's your car insurance due are you paying that yearly are you paying that monthly getting plan of the year ahead is really really important i think for this year more than ever is writing everything down that can be on a bit of paper that can be on a spreadsheet whatever suits you really there's no i would say there's no right or wrong with money and look for patterns you know are you every week ordering a takeaway you know might sound crazy but you could be have you cancelled all those subscriptions is there a pattern in your spending have you got a car for example i always say to everybody you need a car but you don't need a car that costs you a thousand

pounds a month so like look at things like that like if you've got a car can you cut that down to a car that's sort of free 400 pounds a month go and speak to a car garage you know if you if you're in a house and you physically can't afford it although it's absolutely horrific is is it a better option to downsize can you rent out a bedroom these things are awful to even be saying in this day and age but we can only control us what I mean? We can't change what's happened with the gas and electric rises. So it's about looking at ways that we can fix it and about shopping savvy and about even like buying things. I've so many girls who say to me,

oh, I need that bronzer or that lipstick or just little things around the house. And I'll pull out my friend's drawers and I'll be like, you've got 44 eyeshadows in your drawer. Don't shame me. Don't shame me on the radio. We've all got those 44 eyeshadows because they seemed don't shame me don't shame me on the radio we've all got those 44 eyeshadows because they seemed like such a good idea 30 years ago and they're still sitting in the drawer because there's only so much eyeshadow you use at a time exactly yeah and

it's about looking at things like that like can you sell them like i sold a mac eyeshadow on ebay because it had gone out of stock i think i've got like 25 pound no it's about looking like what can you sell around your house so you know first bit of advice then is whatever however you feel about your finances you've just got to face up to them we need to if you need to get on top of them you need to face them sure and i would really emphasize to listeners it's not just about cutting back it's also about growing your income the most popular money clinic podcast last year was how to ask your boss for a pay rise and get one and i'm really not surprised

because that will make a bigger difference to the money you've got coming in and the money that you've got going into your pension because it's a percentage of pay and I think that women are more likely to work part-time three-quarters of part-time workers are women is it possible that you could go up an extra day or change that. Obviously, this relates to what stage your children are at in the childcare system because the costs are so great. But working out your career path, spending some time thinking about that, how you can maximise your income,

that could be a better source of your time than really trying to fill it down bills or sell an eyeshadow. Claire, we've got to mention whilst we've got you in the room, everyone's favourite subject, tax. What should we be looking out for whatever our tax brackets this year? Well, what we're seeing with tax is that the income tax thresholds are going to be frozen for the next few years. But obviously, if you get that pay rise, congratulations to you, but it's likely to push you up into a higher tax bracket. So more of our incomes is going to be going on tax. Now, I'm going to mention pensions

for the third time. One way that you can pay less tax if you can afford to be tax efficient is to pay more into your company pension, especially if your company does salary sacrifice, because then you'll also save on national insurance it could also really benefit you if you're about to go through the hundred thousand pound threshold because that is the point at which a lot of the free child care incentives are given away lots of people don't realize that further down the income scale fifty thousand pounds that's the threshold for child child benefit pay more into your pension drop your salary below that if you can afford it, then you keep more of your child

benefit, but you know, lots and lots of acrobatics are having to be done by people to try and keep on top of this And very quickly Gemma, like 30 seconds, is there anything in manifesting money? Because there's a lot of hashtag manifest money on the internet, is there anything in it? Should we all be just sitting there praying

for the big windfall? I definitely think there is something in it but i do think and i'm a great believer in you can't just sit there and think i'll want to win the lottery because let's be honest like it's probably not going to happen so i would say when you're manifesting money again things like manifesting like yeah do you want a better job do you want to move house manifest the actual thing that you want and work towards that goal so if that is that you want a bigger house for example can you get a weekend job what can you want to move house? Manifest the actual thing that you want and work towards that goal. So if that is that you want a bigger house, for example, can you get a weekend job? What can you do to get there? Do you see what I mean? Rather than just sitting there thinking I want money. I mean, if that's what you have to do, I'm going to do that every day. Manifest that pay rise. Go into your boss's office and request it.

Thank you so much, Gemma and Claire. I really enjoy that. You can come and talk to us about pensions any time, Claire. Make your own luck. Make your own luck. Make your own luck. That's it. Luck favours brave. Good one. Thank you so much. Lots of your thoughts coming in on what you want to do with your lives after recovering from my endometrial cancer

in my late 60s. My husband, who was not in good health and I was not to worry about him and fulfil my long time dream of going to Machu Picchu. I'd never traveled on my own, but joined a solo group of over 50s and found myself at Terminal 5, absolutely terrified. Peru was a wonderful trip, but I stood and cried as I saw the fabulous vision of Machu Picchu before me on beautiful sunny morning. It will stay with me forever. Now, over the last few months, we've been

exploring the joys and difficulties of female friendship. When a friendship goes wrong, can you fix it? And should you try? We know the stories have resonated with you. Lots of you have told us that. A listener we're calling Christina contacted us after she heard the first of the series, Annie and Lizzie's Story, which you can listen back to on BBC Sounds. Well, Christina has lost three longstanding friendships in the last four years.

This is her side of the story. She acknowledges that, but she is asking herself some big questions. Jo Morris went to meet her. My mum used to say to me, if one person tells you you're drunk, you go, no, we're in a party, we're having a good time.

When two people tell you you're drunk, you go home and put yourself to bed. There's always something about mums telling you things which you never really listen to at the time until it's too late and they're gone and then you think she did know.

My mum was a very wise woman. You heard our feature and you wrote us an email and your email really struck us. Because you said, I'm 67, I've just lost my three best friends, 35 years standing. Yeah.

And I'm utterly bereft. Yeah. I'm not crying. It's a question of, are you really who you think you are? So are you this lovely, friendly, jolly person? Or are you a bit of a cow? And if one or two people or three people or four people start going, you're a cow, then maybe you are. And that is what I did to myself from losing the friendships.

It did make me question myself. It made me stop and think, was it me? Was it me? Was it me? And does it happen to other people other than me and I'm thinking I can't be the only one who's gone through this and I hope I'm not the only one who's gone through this because then I really am in trouble because that makes me a terrible person but I don't think I am because the circumstances on all three were very different. Have you got some photos of your friends or you guys when you were younger? So this is my son's wedding. There is friend number one, friend number two.

Friend number three should have been there and wasn't because her dog had died a week before. So how long ago did the first friendship break down? Four years ago. And the second? So how long ago did the first friendship break down? Four years ago. And the second? Less than two years ago, and the other one was July this year. Every two years I'm dropping a friend.

So so many photos and so many memories. That's my friend, yeah. And that's friend number two, and that's her oldest daughter who's best friends with my son. That's my goddaughter, the youngest daughter, who is best friends with my son. That's my goddaughter, the youngest daughter, who is friends with my youngest son. I mean, my oldest son, they're all friends together. They all go out and do things together with their kids, which is the way it should be.

Is it hard for you with the kids? I'm sad. I'd like to know their children. You know, I would have expected to have time for them to come over and be part of our lives. So what did you think when you heard our call out for women going through friendship difficulties? What did you think? I thought, ah, maybe here's some way I can find out what's gone wrong.

It's floored me and I've just kind of buttoned up and whatever. Listening to the programme really hit home and it made me sit down and write, which I don't normally do. And I thought, I actually don't have the toolkit to deal with this myself. Am I wrong or am I right? Did I handle it the best way possible?

What struck me most of all was listening to Lizzie and Annie talking and reconciling. There was no rancor they've managed to kind of get through it and sort it and go out the other side of it why do you think we find it so hard to talk about the fawnier side of female friendship ah i think that goes back to girls being told to be good little girls and nice and kind and sweet and smiley. But women have that nastiness inside of them. We all do.

And we know it. And sometimes, ooh, here's a revelation, with your best friends it comes out. And that's okay. That is okay. What happened with your three friends? Something changed, obviously. Yeah, so if I go to friend number one. I got together with my now husband.

She was the first person we invited to the house. She was very angry with me because we were talking about various things that we had planned for the spring and the summer things that my then partner had organized and that I was then being included in on because I had moved in with him and I got an absolute shrieking diatribe about not going to her son's wedding. And I just went, what would you like me to do? Would you like me to apologise for finding a partner, moving in,

going on holidays with him, and being unable to come out for three weeks for your son's wedding? So she said, yes, I said, I apologise. Would you like another cup of tea? But I had gone cold inside. Because I thought, who are you? So what happened with friendship number two? I made the fatal error of renting my former home, a flat just down the road, to my goddaughter, her daughter.

Huge mistake. My friend got in touch with me and said, this has fundamentally changed our friendship and I don't want to discuss it. And I said, well, maybe we should discuss it. No, I'm not discussing it. And that was the end of that. And have you seen her since then? I saw her at our mutual friends, the number one's wedding a couple of weeks ago. Hello, how are you? Lovely, how are you? Lovely. What did that feel like for you? You know the film Sliding Doors? I never understood that film. Now I do. Had things been normal, this would have happened. Things are not normal, this has happened. Two completely different scenarios. So what would

have happened if things were normal? Big hugs, big kisses. Can't believe it. So excited. What are you wearing? What are you not wearing? I can't believe you're not wearing a bra, which I couldn't, but I couldn't say anything. It's like, really? Our age? Sweetie pie. Are you someone who often says the wrong thing? Or puts your foot in it?

Not often, but sometimes I go, whoops. Not in a mean way. I speak my mind. Has that got you into trouble? I've, whoops. Not in a mean way. I speak my mind. Has that got you into trouble? I've lost three friends. Who knows? Who knows? This is why I now understand why people go into therapy.

Because you do things you don't quite understand why you've done them. And you want something to be different, but you don't want it to be different. And what happened with... Friend number three? Yeah. This is recent. This is very recent. This is literally within the past six, seven weeks.

You said something. I said something to her son-in-law at an event over a year ago, which she picked up on two weeks before she pulled the plug on our friendship. An unfortunate comment about his appearance, which I should have known better. There was a huge amount of banter going on. I'd known them for years. You know, you say things to your friends' kids. You josh about with them.

You've known them since they were small people. Did you know that you'd put your foot in it straight away or did you go home and think, oh, that was a lovely day? I went home and thought that was a lovely day. Never dawned on me. Maybe that's my problem. Didn't dawn on me. I am no saint. No one is. But that one floored me. They all floored me. You can't spend your life censoring what your thoughts are, but you try. What do you think was at the heart of this what do you think perhaps caused the friendship breakup me getting my stuff together me sorting my life out I was no longer the divorced three job single parent stressed out running around like a lunatic running from one penny to the next woman

I looked fantastic I mean seriously fantastic maybe some people had a problem dealing with that Do you think perhaps not everyone has a talent for making friends? I have two or three other girlfriends whom I am close to now I am closer to over the past few years and I count myself very fortunate to have been given I am close to now, I am closer to over the past few years.

And I count myself very fortunate to having been given new friendships, which will be treasured maybe a little bit more than the old ones. There's a statement. Did I take them for granted? I don't know. I would say to people, don't take your friends for granted. Go back and look at your friendships and examine them. I've got maybe another 20 years, if I'm lucky, ahead of me.

I've got different friendships now. I've got a second chance at good friendships. And isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. We're calling her Christina. And if you thought that was great, then listen to the rest of the series. It's called Friends Forever. You can find it on BBC Sounds. Now on the programme, we have the final interview in our series, Finding My Voice. Throughout the series, we've spoken to various women about the moment they realised they had something to say or stand up for. And when my next guest chose to speak out, it was vital to her that she did it

using her own name. Liz Roberts was in her late 50s when she reported to the police the sexual abuse she suffered as a child at the hands of her older brother more than half a century ago. Her brother, 67-year-old Andrew Herbert, was sentenced in November 2022 after pleading guilty to 10 counts of indecent assault against two girls. Victims of sexual offences in the UK are automatically granted a right to lifelong anonymity. But Liz chose to waive this right in order to, in her words, give confidence to other survivors that if they tell the police their story, they will investigate and justice can be achieved. Well, I spoke to Liz earlier this morning, a warning that our discussion does cover some issues that may be distressing to

listeners. I started by asking Liz what the impact was of staying silent for so many years. Basically, your brain becomes hardwired. So it means that instead of dealing with stress in a moderate way through life, any stress that would come in my way would be dealt with as an eight-year-old child, a complete overreaction. So what would be a normal thing to you would be the end of the world to me. So you're living your life waiting. You don't realize this is happening at the time but you're waiting for this so you get anxiety you get depression um at times suicidal um i developed an eating disorder when i was eating disorder when i was in my teens um just just the feelings of negativity and that you're weak and stupid and helpless.

I did disclose to my parents when I was in my 20s. And the reaction? Well, the initial reaction was disbelief, which I guess is an understandable, it's denial as opposed to disbelief. Well, no, this can't be happening. But then it was trying to justify it and it's the age-old thing well it's just kids messing around and I remember saying at the time well hang on you know I was eight and he he was twice my age and he was looking after me

it's not it's there's no there's nothing curious about an eight-year-old's body it's nothing nothing sexual in it at all. But there was with him because he was a fully developed young man. And back in the 70s, 15, 16-year-olds were out at work. They weren't at school anymore. He was an adult in every sense. So you've explained to us how you can remain silent for such a long time with all these different factors, with the era that it was, the type of family you were in, the personalities of your parents, you being such a little girl and not knowing where you can turn or how to deal with it.

So then why in 2020, after 50 years, did you come forward to report it as a crime what changed what changed back in 2018 uh or 2017 things started to change with my mother my father had passed away um my mother her health started to decline and it started to decline because ironically again because of the actions of of andrew and he heard it was going through a situation with his marriage I don't think we've named him yet so this is Andrew your oldest brother sorry Andrew yeah Andrew Herbert um so he he was going through um a situation with his with his wife in his home life and my mum um was experiencing the shame of that and um and And it caused her to stop eating for a number of days. And her health, she was in her 80s at the time. And it reduced her health very notably, very,

very quickly. Now, I used to do the dutiful thing, and I would bring her down to my home in Somerset every few months and and she'd spend a weekend here and I noticed this big change in her and um I said what's going on and she said oh it's terrible I I'll tell you when we get to your house and then we've got to my house um I sat her down and said look you know what what's wrong mum I was expecting her to say she had a terminal illness or somebody in the family was ill. And she said, well, it's Andrew. His wife's thrown him out. And I actually laughed out loud. I said, is that all? But what shocked me was the devastation that she had around that event versus the lack of devastation she had about that same individual

having done what he did to me was, oh, my God, you know, you can imagine, but you can't imagine. I can't imagine. I'm feeling it, though. Definitely feeling it. God, the injustice. So I'm all about justice. And I raged, and and i raged and i really

raged about this and my life then started to fall apart um because what a letdown you went to the police and he was convicted he was charged with 12 counts um 10 counts of sexual assault and two counts of rape. Here's the thing, Liz, because this whole series is about finding your voice. What's interesting in your story is that in the UK, a victim of sexual offence has a right to anonymity from the moment they make the allegation. Yeah. But everything changed for you, didn't it,

when you decided to waive that right? This is what I'm really interested in hearing about because having you on Woman's Hour telling us this story is so powerful. I'm sure everyone listening is gripping, listening to your every word. Why did you choose to wave your anonymity? Why was that important? It was crucial because for me, it's about shame. And such a small word and such a huge response. And speaking to my barrister before the trial, she assumed the assumption is that victim survivors, I'm a survivor now, I'm not a victim any longer, victims and survivors, it's assumed that they won't speak out. And it's patronising for me. I found it very patronising that I wasn't asked

whether I would want to speak out. It was assumed automatically. And I felt ashamed by my own barrister that she'd she'd taken that route but that's the route that every the system takes it and it to protect the victim and that's the reason it does yes but for you it was very different you wanted to say who you were you wanted to talk about it what did what did they say when you said that they agreed they said well actually we need to review how we how we speak to victims in the future because they could see how important it

was to me so for me Andrew's Andrew's always been bigger and stronger than me it's about control and if if whatever happened at the trial at that stage we didn't know what was going to happen at the trial I knew he would reinvent himself. He would still be my big brother that's bigger and stronger than me. And I would then shrink back into the shadows. Because you're the one who's always been made to feel the shame. Yes. But it's not your shame.

No, but it becomes your shame. It becomes your guilt. And then there's the family guilt that you're going to destroy this so-called family but it's a fake family so what did it do for you finding your voice then when you were able to say this has happened to me it was my brother this is and he's now he's you know he's been he's been charged and what did anything change oh my, my God. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm here for a start. People that you speak to the officer in the case, D.C. Norton, held my hand through the whole legal process, which took two years, two really, really difficult years. And she watched me. She carried out my police interview on camera.

And and then she saw me conduct my first interview to the media which was again on camera and she didn't recognize me and that that transformation wasn't a gradual thing over two years it was almost instantaneous from from from the trial from speaking to someone like you um someone that showed empathy um that that was really interested because I actually didn't believe that anyone cared if my own parents didn't care why why should anyone else you know sibling sexual abuse is one of the most common forms of sexual assault but nobody talks about it where is everybody you know so and now I'm seeing this this there is a community there but they haven't got a voice or they don't don't seem to be able to use that voice and suddenly everyone's popping up and saying to me I'm getting

people tapping on my window in their car in my local community saying you're wow you're a hero this happened to me or that happened to someone I know you're doing a great job and and and so what became a selfish thing like I've got to keep the tables turned and keep in control of this the only way I can do that is to keep talking about it keep him in the dark and keep me in the light by doing this it's become way way bigger than that now yeah i can feel it we know that's where you know you can sense that you have taken the power back you have got control of the situation but here's another question for you liz you were a police officer for some 30 years why and you were presumably having to deal with people coming to

you to talk about their own experiences of sexual assault. I can't imagine how difficult that would have been for you. Yeah. Yeah. Why did you never come forward to talk about it yourself? Why did you never in the 30 years that you were a police officer feel that you could report this? I think a lot of that is down to dissociation. So going back to that child, you can't physically live your life in that constant state of stress or fear of stress. So you box it off and you lock it away. The other really important thing here, and I've had a lot of time to think about this, is that as a police officer, I knew the definition of rape. I knew the definition of a Section 18 wounding, a Section 20 wounding. I knew all of that. But you don't apply that to your own family or your own loved ones.

Rape is very much seen, and I think it still is seen, as something that happens by strangers to strangers. It's something that's done um out of the home it's not something that's done or sexual assault um done in in the home I didn't associate speaking to the to the women and it was mainly women um because the children didn't come forward and often the families when the children do speak out the families close ranks around them I believe and to protect they think they're protecting the family but they're protecting that's why they're protecting the child but they're protecting the family the greater good so first of all I didn't didn't associate myself in that in that victim mode yeah I also did um hand on heart think back in the 80s when I was a

police officer I probably wouldn't have been believed I would have been treated probably almost as the perpetrator because I'd seen it myself you know I'd seen young young women's lives fall apart they've reported um a sexual assault to the police and and then they're questioned and the entire everything around it is about proving their their guilt and they have to jump through such big hoops to do that but now i didn't know this until i'd reported it there's a whole wraparound service uh that that helps you and guides you and nobody ever says we don't believe it's it's taken from the assumption that you're telling the truth. So, so much has changed within the police force in the time that you've been there.

And it actually was when you left that you were able to go. And how are you now? How do I look? You look fantastic. It's not a good question for radio, is it? I know. Well, I can see you. I'm looking at you. I mean, we can hear it in your voice, Liz. I don't think people need to see you to hear it.

I'm excited to be here. Yeah. I'm proud. I've been really nervous about doing this and about this one because I know this is really important. And I know a lot of my friends and a lot of my new friends, my new family, if you you like are listening to this and and that is what go you know go for it you know and and there's a lot at stake here for me because I really want to get the message across

to people that it's never too late it's never too late and it's a natural thing to wait decades it really is natural for this to have to be like that it's not the oh why now nobody's going to believe me people will believe you and hitting the justice button doesn't just mean going to the police it's about speaking and the freedom I feel now talking to you is I can't if I could bottle it I would and that's all it's taken really someone to listen someone to say that was awful what happened to you the fact that I now know that over those years I wasn't going mad that I wasn't the bad person that was always angry that people didn't like and people didn't get on with these were symptoms of something that was done to me as a helpless child I should have been protected by my parents I wasn't what worries me is that as I'm speaking it's happening to somebody now

but also those children haven't got a voice so I'd like this to be not finding your voice as an adult I'm finding my voice as a child. Liz it's been very powerful and moving listening to your story and I think you will have inspired lots of people listening really I keep you keep using your voice Liz Roberts there who has absolutely found her voice and I'm going going to give the last words to all of you. Thank you for all of yourumb to the disease, so I know what will lie in wait for me. However, I've decided I will live more than I've ever done before in the time I've got left of being independent and having most of my marbles. I'm going to travel to places I'd like to go, get into the camp van, go to the Alps and Southern Europe. I feel like there's no time like now and that there's an urgency to use my time wisely from now on. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Helen Lewis,

and I want to tell you about a podcast I've made for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. It's called The New Gurus, and it's about how everywhere you look on the internet, people are giving advice. Advice they claim will transform your life. Advice that gets them thousands, no, millions of devoted followers. These online prophets are telling us how to eat, how to think, how to get rich,

how to find love, how to manage our time. These are the new gurus. Just as people will say the Protestant Reformation and the printing press went hand in hand, so too did this birth of the new internet culture really give rise to this new religious landscape. Subscribe now to The New Gurus on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered.

There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.