Woman's Hour - Finding a comfortable saddle; Nutrition and brain health; Jackie Clune

Episode Date: July 28, 2020

We often take it for granted that cycling can make you feel a bit saddle sore. But that expectation masks the fact that many women experience real pain when cycling - due to a combination of inappropriate saddles, ill-fitting bikes and a lack of understanding by medical experts of the damage that can be done to the vulva. Now that cycling may soon be on prescription and bikes are soaring in popularity due to the pandemic, how can women ensure they have a pain-free ride? Endurance cyclist and coach Jasmijn Muller talks about what she’s learned from years of serious pain, and specialist women’s cycling physio Bianca Broadbent gives her top troubleshooting tips for everything from saddles to lubricating cream, and not wearing pants. The Chartered Counselling Psychologist and former Great British Bake Off Finalist, Kimberley Wilson, joins Jane to discuss her time working in a women’s prison, her mission to improve brain health with simple lifestyle and nutritional tips, while still enjoying an occasional slice of cake.Writer and performer Jackie Clune joins Jane to talk about her new novel I’m Just a Teenage Punchbag, a comic tale of menopause, grief and a disillusionment with motherhood.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hi, this is Jane Garvey. Thank you for downloading the Woman's Hour podcast from Tuesday, July 28th, 2020. Today we're talking to Jackie Clune, who's written a rather poignant novel, actually. It sounds comic, but actually there was more to it than that. It's called I'm Just a Teenage Punchbag. We'll hear from her. It's essentially about a middle-aged woman whobag. We'll hear from her. It's essentially about a middle-aged woman who's simply had a belly full and really can't take any more. But our emphasis today is going to be on fitness, on health. We'll talk about healthy living

and healthy eating in the company of Kimberley Wilson a little later in the programme. She is a chartered counselling psychologist and the author of a book about brain health and how that connects to food. So we'll talk to Kimberley. First up, though, we're going to discuss cycling and more specifically saddles, because there's a certain amount of discomfort associated with women and cycling. And when we mentioned it on the programme yesterday, just extraordinary the reaction from you via email. We know as well today that the government is launching its own cycling programme. And yes, it is true. GPs are going to be able to prescribe cycling. It's one of the initiatives the government's

bringing on to get us all fitter and leaner in the midst of the coronavirus. So let's talk about that with endurance cyclist and coach Yasmin Muller. Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Good to have you with us. Sorry, is it Yasmin or Jasmine? I don't, I don't mind. Oh, she's Dutch and they're just very adaptable. And best of all, she's in the studio with me, which is brilliant. And also with a specialist women's cycling physio, Bianca Broadbent. Bianca, good morning. Welcome to you as well. Morning. Thanks for having me. Great pleasure. Now, Jasmine, just tell us a bit about your, I mean, you are not just a cyclist. You're an endurance cyclist. How long have you been doing that?

Started cycling in 2011 as a hobby. I am Dutch, so we're kind of born on a bike, but that's just to go to the shops. And my first ride was 100 miles. And then it went from there. What do you mean it went from there? What's the longest you've done? The longest probably in one go was 1,128 kilometres. And shockingly, it was going nowhere. It was in my bedroom on a static bike. Because?

Erasing money for charity and also preparing for a long-distance record attempt on the road from Land's End to John O'Groats. I see. So cycling is so much a part of your life and endurance cycling is what you excel at. What was the impact on your body? Between 2013 and 2018,

I've never sat on a saddle with any comfort. But you kept on doing it? Kept on doing it. I do enjoy my cycling, but with horrendous infections and, in the end, two operations on the labia. And what did that operation do? The first operation was in 2013. This was acute. So this was after a 24-hour cycling event in France, in Le Mans. And the infection was on the left labia, which became the size of something that might belong to an elephant rather than a human.

And it was an acute operation. They said it was the Bartolin cyst that they removed. I don't think it was anywhere near the Bartolin gland. What is that? It's quite close to the opening of the vagina. Right. You've got two of them, and they actually make sex pleasurable because they make it a bit more moist.

They produce a lubricating. Yeah. If you don't have both glands, sex is not ever going to be pleasant again. So they didn't remove any glands. It was a cyst near it. But I think it got lost in translation. That took five weeks to heal. And they left it as an open wound to slowly close.

You had to inject it with iodine every day. Couldn't sit on it and couldn't shower. Then, miraculously, I never had issues on that site anymore but i started having issues on the other site which got operated on in 2018 and now you are you are still able to cycle with no discomfort absolutely for the last 20 months i haven't had a single saddle sore wow okay um bianca I think it's worth pointing out that Jasmine is an extreme example. She is an endurance cyclist. Surely most cyclists don't suffer like she has. and a normal part of cycling and so they just deal with it and push through it or maybe they're told the saddle needs to wear in you need to learn to you know strengthen your tissues so they can cope with the pressure and it's not really true what you tend to find is people that start with some discomfort in that

way may then ride through it and it gets to the point where the symptoms, just as like with Jasmine, become quite serious and they become much harder to deal with. Now, is all this because when cycling first came about, became popular, there were a lot of people who felt that it would, quite honestly, I've got some historical artefact here which I now can't bring to mind, but it suggests, suggests frankly that cycling for women might do them a mischief is that where all this starts? I think what you probably need to consider more is where cycling has come from in general and the history of bikes is very much

a case of having a vehicle and consideration to the ergonomics wasn't necessarily something that was at the forefront of the designer's thoughts. And as obviously the bicycle has grown in use, then we've certainly begun to realise that actually there's more to it than just creating a wheel that attaches to two frames. We need to think about the contact points and also aerodynamics and the progression of sports science has also helped that and we start to now realize well if these issues exist how can we overcome them and certainly with current manufacturing techniques it makes it a lot easier can i just bring in the listeners because um there are so many questions this is we don't need to mention her name i've cycled since i was five i had to stop a couple of years ago due to a prolapse of my bladder.

Cycling irritated my urethra as it's now in a vulnerable position to the seat. I've wondered if there's a better seat for this problem or can a seat be adapted with something to protect me? Bianca, what would you say to that? I think this is quite a common question and everyone that, well not everyone, but most people that experience saddle discomfort assume it is simply the saddle but the saddle is not always to blame um the saddle is one consideration really of the contact points on the bike but you equally could have a saddle that actually would work really well for you but if the positioning is far from optimal then the saddle is never going to feel right still so for example if the saddle is too high it's going to increase the pressure and that may well cause you to have a predisposition

to pressure and pain around the vulva conversely if the cockpit or the handlebars are too low or too far away you may move yourself onto the front of the saddle and sitting on that narrow aspect of that saddle really isn't the most comfortable place to sit. And you're going to get tissue pain as a result of that. So it's about thinking about the bigger picture, really. Well, is it about changing your saddle? There are so many different saddles out there, Jasmine. What would you say about saddles?

Is there an optimum saddle? Or, frankly, we all need our own personalised version of it, I guess. I think I'm not the only cyclist who's got a small library of saddles or at least went through a small library you keep trying try on error and with uh with significant pain um it certainly is very individual um i think recently we're starting to see more and more bike shops using technology to test the pressure on the saddle. So like Bianca explained, you can have the same saddle, but if you change the rest of the bike fit,

that technology can actually show you, either in still images or moving images, how the pressure is divided, whether it's more to the front or the rear, which areas need to have more support, whether that saddle works for you or not. That can be kind of a shortcut to buying 10 different saddles. You've got to be equipped with a certain amount of information. need to have more support, whether that saddle works for you or not. Right. That can be kind of a shortcut to buying ten different saddles. You've got to be equipped with a certain amount of information to even start asking those questions.

And you've got to feel, Bianca, comfortable in the bike shop environment, haven't you? And they're not always that welcoming to women. No, they're not. I've got a great story from a friend who went into a bike shop and approached a young 17-year-old male about her vulva issues. And he promptly went the colour of beetroot in return. So, you know, I think if you have some confidence in raising these issues, that's great.

That's one thing. But you also need someone who's equally as receptive on the other end to your concerns. Can we talk practical advice in terms of moisturiser or what kind of shorts should you wear, Jasmine? And pubic hair, that's another thing. You shouldn't shave your pubic hair, should you? Correct, yeah. In 2018, after my second operation, I wrote a blog called Flipping Flat Mash. It's kind of graphic, by the way.

It's a graphic description of what the labia may end up looking if there's too much friction there. And with shaving, the issue you get is that some of the hairs might grow in. That can cause an infected follicle. And then if you've got in addition to that pressure in a hot environment sweaty environment that might get infected and from there it gets worse so generally the advice is yeah not to shave just to kind of trim it cut it short um but not remove the hair it's actually protective um in terms of chamois cream um i'm actually using a double base gel which is like because easily that's

very it's available everywhere it's over the counter yeah um and you know they use it for patients in hospitals who have to lay there for a long time it works also if you've got to sit on a bike for a long time it's cheaper and um it works quite well um i certainly wouldn't advise not to use anything if you're doing longer distance riding but underwear is not a necessity in fact it can be a negative thing uh yeah so if you do an hour of riding to the shops in an upright sort of dutch bike then you know clothing and underwear are not a problem but on a uh in a lycra bib shorts on a race bike and riding for longer you don't want any friction so you don't want any underwear an interesting question here on the subject of they're called bib shorts

aren't they the shorts that you wear on bikes um this is from a listener who says given that the campaign is largely aimed at people who are overweight the range of exercise clothing available to larger women is really small for For many of the major cycle kit manufacturers, 14 is considered XXL. That's ridiculous. As a size 18, finding kit to fit is a real chore. So, yeah, are you aware of this, Bianca? Is it a problem?

It is something that some clients report when they do come through. There are some clothing companies that do cater for larger ranges of sizes, but it's true to a point. There are some Italian brands where I would normally be an extra small and I'm the equivalent of a medium, for example. So that really does highlight the issue in finding suitably fitting clothes for some people.

Yeah, and this whole government initiative of getting people to exercise more if you don't feel comfortable exercising and you don't feel that you won't be laughed at then you're never going to get started are you so all this does need to be does need to be tackled um helen says i found comfort this is on twitter in an old-fashioned sprung leather saddle. Those ergonomic ladies' ones are about as useful as a chocolate teapot, she says. Bianca, what do you say to that? Well, I'd probably disagree based on the fact that my job really is seeing people with a saddle-related issue. So you can come at things from two angles.

You tend to find that some saddles are going to relate back to your anatomy so actually some of the ergonomic saddles don't work for some people because they've kind of been designed based on research by manufacturers and they also might be trying to overcome a specific problem which doesn't apply to you but also it depends on the position that you're riding in so very much the whole concept of saddle discomfort is relative to your anatomy and your riding position so all these things need to be accounted for really when you're finding that perfect saddle and the thing is as jasmine has said there's no perfect saddle necessarily for um one person you know we we are all very different and we all have very diverse

anatomy and that needs to be considered when you yourself are trying to overcome these barriers and these issues yeah our anatomy is diverse but whatever however you look you won't be you're just yourself you won't be unusual I mean this is the fact that a lot of women of course don't really know what they look like and that's on this program before we've recommended the Great Wall of Vagina, which you can find on the on the Internet. And it's really useful because you just see that everybody's just slightly different. Another listener says, I suffered a very painful blister on my labia from cycling with a razor blade style saddle. The pain was just incredible. I've now switched to a women's specific saddle that's

the type with a big hole in the middle now these are the so-called cutout saddles jasmine do they do they work for they an option for for women they work for some um so there's one company that makes saddles that came up with an analogy of innies and outies and that's when we're looking at the the shape of the labia yeah so the outies being women whose outer labia are a little bit more pronounced and the innies women where everything is a little bit more tucked inside and the amount of support or cushioning you want to have depends on which of these types you are it tends to be actually the women with the larger labia or more outies to say um might prefer saddles that have a little bit less cushioning whereas the innies might want more

cushioning if you think about the cutout ones and we spoke about prolapse earlier as well and there's actually one of the risk factors there um there's one company that has taken it to the complete extreme has basically cut out everything right and the risk with that is that you don't have any support for your seat bones and your sit bones for the sit bones yeah they are where are they um where you can actually find them if you sit on a on a piece of carton um and you you make it kind of wet it's the um the bits the marks that that are left on there. And that determines sort of the width of the saddle that you need.

I guess everybody's different, aren't they? And if they are not supported, then that will affect everything because you're going to lean more onto the soft tissue instead. And women's bikes, are they necessary? Because presumably for a smaller man, they'd need a smaller bike. And the same must apply to women, surely. Is there a real difference? A lot of manufacturers are moving away from women-specific bikes

in terms of the geometry. What is important, though, is the contact points. So making handlebars that are a little bit narrower, maybe cranks that are a little bit shorter. So the geometry just depends on whether you're a long-legged or long-bodied person rather than if you're male or female. But the contact points are important. A lot of people are making this point, and I don't blame them.

Here's one on Twitter from Dr Jules. You need to talk about normal distance cycling, such as working or a bit of an outing at the weekend. Yeah, that's a good point. So your advice, Bianca, for somebody who's going to do what the government wants them to do, they're going to stop exercising and they're going to go on their bike. What do they need to know? Well, the reality is for many people who want to ride their bike recreationally,

the position that they'll be in is different to, for example, Jasmine, where she might be holding more of a typical road riding position or a racing position. yn wahanol i Jasmine, er enghraifft, we need to have a little look at the saddle and change the saddle. Because when you're sitting upright and you're riding more recreationally, if you think about it this way, if you put your hands under your sit bones now and you're sitting upright, you can feel good contact between your hand and those sit bones. The moment you lean forward that changes so as you're sat upright a wider saddle tends to be something that is more beneficial because it's going to help take more of the loading through the bony structures rather than the soft tissue structures someone perhaps who is going back to cycling and hasn't done it since they were a kid um it's best isn't it to keep off the road when you first start i mean presumably be better off just going gently around the park once or twice Bianca I think it depends on how confident you

feel and part of this comes back to the bike as well and how well that bike handles but some cities do have quite good infrastructures as well where they either have like off-road riding centres that you can practice riding or even cycle lanes. Yeah, well, cycle lanes are all over London and they are great, but I suspect from the way I see people behaving on them, Jasmine, you must be an expert, you need to know what you're doing. And young men can be quite intimidating in those environments, can't they? I mean, presumably not to you, but certainly to relatively novice cyclists they can be. Being Dutch, I'm totally spoiled. i never knew how good i had it

no well you didn't no you didn't that's certainly true um i want to just speak up for cycling genuinely generally this is from kim um in lockdown i started a low-key cycling group with my close friends none of us are so-called real cyclists but it's been great fun and a real chance to get together have a laugh and still keep in touch on sunday we managed 20 miles a coffee and cake and got completely drenched in the downpours in the afternoon our group has now been renamed the soggy bottom girls um that's that is absolutely fantastic and very briefly from a listener who is 76 um i have two bikes which i've ridden for years without problems i lost a lot of weight three years ago and gradually my saddles have become very, very uncomfortable.

My physical shape is now a bit saggy. I want to know how to get this sorted. Where do I find the correct advice from a sympathetic person, preferably a woman who understands the problem? Bianca, what would you say to that? I think it can seem quite difficult to connect to the right person there is an organisation called the IBFI and they seek to try and standardise the experience that clients receive if they're looking for advice on bike fitting and cycling medicine

so that could be quite a good website to check out if you're looking for a local practitioner someone that you'd like to consult with but at the end of the day there are lots of mixed articles and mixed advice that does exist on the internet so it is a little bit of a minefield i can appreciate that um so the ibfi really are probably a good source all right thank you both very much indeed and just really briefly from me a second-hand bike is it safe jasmine to buy a second-hand bike that you don't know much about? Is that a sound investment? Usually, yes.

You sounded a bit wary there. I wouldn't buy a bike from a racing cyclist. They're more likely to have crashed. Yeah, OK. Right, thank you, Jasmine and Bianca. Thank you both very much indeed. Still loads of questions coming in on this. I'm sorry we can't get through everything. I'm sure we'll return to the subject,

but keep your thoughts coming at BBC Women's Out on Twitter. Thank you both for taking part today. Now, it's not unconnected. Kimberley Wilson is a chartered counselling psychologist, former finalist in the Great British Bake Off and the author of How to Build a Healthy Brain. Kimberley, good morning to you. Good morning, Diane. How are you?

I'm well, thank you. And there's a big connection between physical well-being and what you eat, what you put into your body, but also how you feed your brain. So what do you make of this sudden, and it is quite sudden, government emphasis on trying to get lean, trying to shift a few pounds? Well, it's a bit odd, to be honest. And I think anybody on the ground who's been working, nutrition professionals, anybody who's working with people with difficulties, managing their weight or who aren't happy with their weight, have been talking about the need to improve the landscape for people in terms of taking care of their physical health for a long time. It feels a bit like a knee-jerk reaction, although some of the proposals have been welcomed by lots of people in the nutrition professions. So I think it's a little bit of a mixed bag. What do you think is right about this

government initiative? What's good? The emphasis on looking at advertising to children, I think, is really important because what we understand and what is really important is that advertising really works and advertising at young people in terms of nutritionally poor kind of calorie rich foods is effective in getting them to eat those foods. And particularly in terms of brain health, we want to be thinking about how to nourish the brain at such a critical point. So the proposals around advertising are very good. I'm less convinced around the calorie counts on menus in restaurants. Can you hear me? Sorry, Kimberly, why are you less convinced about that? I don't think the evidence is in to demonstrate that it has a beneficial effect on on body shape

or or food intake also the foods that we tend to eat when we eat out are very different to the foods we eat when we cook at home and um and then there's also the concern about people who a just want to have a nice meal out out and people who might be recovering from an eating disorder or disordered eating who are trying to get away from the restrictive calorie in calorie out approach to eating yeah can we go back then to your own childhood because so much of our relationship with food well probably all of it begins in our own childhood doesn't it so tell me about your home life um so i had quite a good i have got because i've got caribbean background but obviously grew up i was born here so I had quite a good I have got because I've got Caribbean background but obviously grew up

was born here so I had quite a I would call it a integrated approach to food so we had Caribbean and West Indian food a lot of Indian food as well as a lot of European foods as well so my palate's pretty broad and I was always able to kind of experiment with foods. I got into the kitchen very early and so I was cooking from a very early age and I think I'm very fortunate in that weight loss was never one of the issues for me. It was about nourishment, it was about taste, it was about enjoyment, it was about pleasure. So being able to have that approach to food I think has been really fortunate and I think gave me a little bit of a buffer against kind of getting into my teen years yeah when

obviously at school there was a real emphasis on you know girls being slim and and watching our weight and worrying about cellulite and other sorts of nonsense yeah which I which goes back to what you were saying about putting the calories on menus which I think probably would be a problem for certain people in their teenage years um so so tell me about your your interest in psychology which began during those those teenage years your teenage years why were you so interested in mental health well I grew up with what I called um I guess quite colloquially um bad brain so there's a lot of neurological disorder in my family, my media family. And so I grew up with quite an intimate knowledge of what happens when brains go bad. So I knew about kind of myelination and I was aware of schizophrenia in my family.

So it was quite a, I guess, unusual introduction to the bad side of mental health and when I got into school I didn't realize because obviously when you grow up this is it's just normal this is just how things are and how it was but getting into school and realizing that I actually had this kind of precocious knowledge around brain and mental health and what happens when brains aren't well I guess inevitably got me started on a path that led to being interested in it, being good at it, and then wanting to pursue it as a career. Now, you're not suggesting, I know you're not suggesting that a good diet or a different diet can cure schizophrenia. But what you are absolutely certain about is that a decent diet

is better for your brain. It's as simple as that. Absolutely. And we know that from interuterine studies in animal trials, but also in early intervention trials in children, in neurodevelopmental disorders like dyslexia and dyspraxia, and even in adulthood, when we're thinking about reducing things like aggression in prisoners and reducing the risk of Alzheimer's disease in old age. So we know we have a robust literature of clinical evidence from conception to old age that improvements in nutritional intake and better diets improve the actual structure to the physical structure of the brain, but also then improve how it functions in terms of mood, in terms of attention, accuracy, memory function, and impulse control. And you worked in, well, it was Holloway Prison. I know it doesn't exist anymore, but you worked there for some time and

observed what? So a lot of things, really. So I ran the therapy service at Holloway, involved in managing my own caseload, as well as making sure that I could have a team of therapists who could look after the women who were referred to us. And it was a primary care mental health. So it was anything from depression and anxiety up until just about the point where people would need to be taken into hospital or hospital wing for severe and enduring mental health conditions like psychosis. And one of the things, I mean, a lot of evidence that emerged at that time was around the risk of self-harm to women in prison. So although women only make up about 6% or at the time made up about 6% of the prison population, they actually accounted for about 50% of the self-harm. So it was a hugely disproportionate amount of self-harm that was happening. And Holloway was a very difficult prison to run because it was laid out as a hospital. So

it's quite expensive to run in terms of the number of staff needed to keep people safe. And around this time, research came out demonstrating that improving nutrition in prisoners could reduce violence, self-harm, aggression by 37%. And so that's when I started to get very interested in the role of nutrition on brain function and mood. I'm just, I mean, I have eaten in prisons. I've been in a few prisons over the time on this programme. And I think the budget for prisoners food over the course of a day is something like I mean it's shockingly low the idea that you could really provide decent nutritional food for prisoners it just it doesn't happen does it? So the prison

service will say yes we provide food that meets the nutritional requirements that are set out by food standards. However, there's a massive difference between what's offered and also what's taken. But also, the contracts are outsourced to, as they are to private contracts and private contractors. The end result is on the bottom line. It's on budgets, it's on money and profit. And so there's a huge incentive for the food to become cheaper and cheaper and cheaper in order to manage to get a profit.

And when that happens, then really what we're talking about is, you know, long shelf life, very highly processed foods. And these are foods that are demonstrated to be nutritionally deficient. And almost all prisoners are deficient in basically all of nutrients, according to RDAs. Which brings me back, because most of our listeners, let's be honest, will not be prisoners or have any knowledge of prisons. But in fact, many listeners will be a bit like me, will be middle-aged women who know or think we know

that we need to eat oily fish. And I like oily fish, as it happens, so I do eat oily fish and I like oily fish as it happens so I do eat oily fish and I know oily fish is good for me however chocolate which I also love just makes me makes me feel better Kimberly so how do you explain that difference? Well I don't think there is so there are differences in the the kind of function of certain foods on a biological level. So things like oily fish provide these essential fats that literally make up the structure of the brain. And the body can't make them very well. So you have to get them from food.

So if you're not eating oily fish, essentially you are by definition deficient in these fats that make up the building block of your cell membranes and also help your brain to signal and that's a big concern particularly during development so childhood and um and teen years but things like chocolate there's you know there's the the physiological side but also the psychological side we use food in non-nutritive ways and you know although there is some evidence that very dark chocolate has you know is rich in polyphenols and is good for brain health. I also don't want to kind of give across the idea that everything has to be hashtag healthy and, you know, good for you, that you're allowed to eat for pleasure as well. But what's really important is that we understand that your brain is an organ like all of the other organs in your body. And therefore, it needs proper nutrition. It needs proper care, exercise, rest, stimulation in order to function properly.

And we don't think about our brains like that. We kind of leave them to be neglected until something goes wrong. And then we try to get them back on track. And really what I'm trying to help people think about is why don't we use prevention, the principle of prevention for mental health in the same way that we do for physical health. Thank you very much. Really interesting.

Kimberley Wilson, Chartered Counselling Psychologist, author of How to Build a Healthy Brain. Now on Women's Hour, let's travel to the Dordogne. Very few of us are able to travel very far at the moment, so let's do it and talk to Jackie Clune, who's written a book called I'm Just a Teenage Punchbag, a comic tale of menopause, grief and disillusionment, it says here. Jackie, good morning to you.

Good morning. If it makes you feel any better, Jane, it's absolutely teeming with rain here. Excellent. And it's cracking the flags here. I am covered in Factor 50, even though I'm inside. Actually, we know it's getting hotter in Britain. So before anybody pings in to say that I've got the weather wrong, I know it's going to be really very hot towards the end of this week. In fact, too hot, Jackie. So I read this book and

it's actually very poignant because there's a lot going on in this woman's life. And I think a lot of our listeners will be able to relate only too well. My favourite quote is from your central character, Kira. What's the point in cracking up? The dishes still need doing. The kids still need feeding. The washing doesn't do itself. I could sit on the floor and cry or I could just get on with it. And I choose to get on with it.

How many middle-aged women haven't had exactly that thought? Hardly any of us, I don't think, really. Well, yes. And I think also like a lot of the your listeners I had my children older so I was 37 when I had my first child and then when I was 39 I had triplets so um I'm in the menopause now my own mother was very ill and dying towards the latter part of um about two years ago she died so I'm that typical sort of sandwich generation and in the book I just really wanted to capture the agony really of being an older mother going through

the menopause at the time when your own children are going through puberty so it's kind of like the perfect hormonal storm and also losing your own mother and trying to sort of work out what is the blueprint now what sort of a mother am I going to be to my kids when your own mother and trying to sort of work out what is the blueprint now what sort of a mother am I going to be to my kids when my own mother has passed and I don't want to do it necessarily how she did it because we're in a different era now and so it's a really complicated time I think for a lot of us. And your central character is married she is it's not an unhappy marriage it's well let me quote again is it any wonder I don't want to rip his clothes off

and have him put me up against the tumble dryer when his idea of foreplay is to pat me on the head because I patched up his golf trousers oh you're laughing at your own jokes Jackie I'm laughing at my own jokes, that's not good is it no I just go for it frankly because it is funny but again many people will have been in exactly that situation it's not anybody's fault, it's just go for it, frankly, because it is funny. But again, many people will have been in exactly that situation. It's not anybody's fault.

It's just how things go, isn't it? Well, I think so. And I think, you know, what enrages me at this time in my life is the idea that when we hit middle age, we're supposed to just slink off into the shadows and sit rocking and crying and watching Escape to the Country. You know, fine, though, that program is. I want a little bit more out of the next part of my life. And I think a lot of women like me feel the same. So the idea that you get married, you have your children and you live in kind of sort of semi happy sort of shutdown mode until you shuffle off this mortal coil it seems to me very old-fashioned and I think you know maybe there's another chapter that's a bit more exciting what if you could just

leave what if you could just do something else with the last 20 30 years of your life maybe that's going to be a thing you know and that fascinated me that we don't have to just sit it out anymore that we might have other choices. Well, your character does pack it in and she does leave and then things happen. Although it has to be said, she is the authoress of her own misfortune before she has to pack her bags. Her family do have a certain amount to put up with. Without spoiling the book, she writes a blog, but it's published sort of by accident and feelings are hurt, to put it mildly. You're right though, Jackie, there is something about living with teenagers because they can be so contemptuous.

I think we could probably run a competition on the programme about the single most contemptuous remark a teenager has made to you. And if you are feeling a bit low and a bit depleted, as some menopausal women are inclined to feel, it's horrible, isn't it it it can be really horrible yeah it is i mean i try to make light of it and joke and get my own back one of my favorite games is if any of my kids ask me for money i say i'll give you 20 pounds if you can watch me dance to a whole record in the kitchen and they never can they always just bail out after about 30 seconds.

So I chalk that up as a victory against teenagers. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love them and I love young people. And they're great fun and they've got a lot to offer and they're so much better than my generation in so many ways. But they can be extremely withering and I just try, I really try not to take it on board. But it is hard. But weren't we withering too?

I think probably I was. But I think I probably also crack out the old line. I would never have spoken to my mother like that. But I probably did. I think they have it a bit harder than us. Social media is still a massive thing, especially for girls. So I do try to be sympathetic. But, yeah, I just think that they're a bit more vocal, teenagers these days,

that their opinion is canvassed more. They're better expressing their views, I think, better than my generation was. So maybe they have more of a voice and therefore more opportunity to shut us down. Your character, Keira, has her mother's ashes with her and she goes on a journey with them, in fact. Yes. But that is also a difficult phase of any woman's life when she's dealing with her own children, but her own mother has gone. And I think there's a Mother's Day in your book, isn't there, where your character no longer has a mother to send a card to and she thinks, well, no one will notice that. No one will reference it on the day.

They just won't mention it at all. Yeah. And I think, you know, we're very different, our generation. You know, not that long ago in history, we'd have all been dead long before the menopause got its claws into us. So the fact that we're living longer after our fertile years, plus the fact that a lot of us are having children later, means that we're going through all this sort of stuff that previous generations didn't go through. And I was just really interested in what choices we have in that.

I mean, losing my own mum was awful. I mean, she was 86 when she died and she'd been very ill for a long time, but she was incredibly buoyant and, you know, sucked whatever she could out of life in her last sort of ill years. So that was huge for me. And trying to stay strong for your own children when you've lost your own mother, you feel that sort of shuffling forwards. You're the next generation. It's going to be you next. And all of those sort of morbid things come to the front of your mind and then you think well okay if i've only got 20 years what am i going to do with them because i'm not ready for slippers jackie lovely to talk to you um and as i say it's

a it's a moving read as well as a funny one i'm just a teenage just i'm just a teenage punch bag well you found it funny when i read some extracts to you so That is an endorsement. Terrible, laughing at my own jokes. No, well, it is raining in the Dordogne, so we'll allow you to do that. Thank you very much, Jackie. Take care. Thanks so much. That's Jackie Clune. Let's go to Edinburgh and to the director of the Scottish Gallery, because the Modern Masters Women exhibition opens this Thursday. Christina Janssen is the director. Good morning. Welcome, Christina. How are you? Good morning. I'm very well, thank you.

Tell me, your gallery has actually been exhibiting the works of women for a very long time, hasn't it? Yes, we've been exhibiting women for 125 years, so we're taking this moment this year to celebrate that. Why is it something that is still quite unusual? Surely other galleries also showed works by women and have done for years? No. No, okay. I've actually, at the moment, we've got a press call and we've got a fabulous curator in the gallery called Alice Strang and she curated an exhibition at the Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art called Scottish Modern Women in 2015 and she actually highlighted in an exhibition at the Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art called Scottish Modern Women in 2015,

and she actually highlighted in that exhibition that the contribution of the Scottish Gallery was extraordinary and very unusual. We weren't even aware of that. We were just so used to exhibiting women artists that we hadn't really recognised that this was quite special so we're we're kind of taking turning that on its head we haven't created a survey exhibition because we have literally shown hundreds of artists but we're looking at a really lovely cross-section from from the past and right up to very strong contemporary selection of women artists well we've mentioned

on this programme over the years wonderful artists like Joan Eardley and Redpath but what about more modern what about contemporary Scottish painters who should we know about? You should know about Victoria Crowe she had a sensational 50-year retrospective at the City Art Centre last year it covered over four floors and it was record-breaking numbers. She's actually English but she was headhunted by Sir Robin Philipson in the late 1960s and she made Scotland her home and she is a phenomenal talent, someone that is very well respected and is obviously someone that inspires other people to become artists. And then you've got Kate Downie. And so our youngest artist is an Irish artist called Hannah Mooney, who graduated from Glasgow School of Art two years ago.

And she paints these sublime, tiny little landscape paintings. I was looking at some of Hannah's work last night and it's bold. And there's a real intensity about what she does, isn't there? There is. It's totally genuine. It's really unpretentious. She's so lovely. She comes from a family of artists. I'm not even sure she's aware of her gifts. There's such an emotional response to her work and it's not on a large scale. So she's someone who's really interesting to us and it's about showing our commitment to contemporary talent. Darf question, but is the gallery physically open? People can go in?

We are physically open. We're by appointment because we want people to feel safe. So a lot of people are a little bit anxious or they're at risk, but they still want to come out. So a lot of people are a little bit anxious or they're at risk, but they still want to come out. So we're encouraging by appointments. If individuals need the space to themselves, then we want them to enjoy coming out again. But you can also visit us. We've created a virtual gallery. So wherever you are, you can enjoy this exhibition from your living room and we've also created a really quite a large program of free online events of 10-minute lectures and in conversations because

we wanted to reach out at this moment of a pandemic and and invite the organizations the art historians the curators to join in this conversation and so And so that's free for all. And that's in the spirit of the festival. That was Christina Janssen from the Scottish Gallery in Edinburgh, an exhibition well worth seeking out. And I do hope people take advantage. If you can't get to Edinburgh, you can look online for those wonderful,

wonderful images created by brilliantly talented female artists. Now, cycling. Hilda's in Glasgow. She says, I'm a keen cyclist and I bought a new road bike a couple of years ago to complete a challenge of a 200 mile trip in two days. Just before we set off, I asked my bike shop what I could do about a sore lady garden, as my cycling friend calls it, while cycling on a saddle meant for a man. He said it's surprisingly easy to adjust the saddle

by tipping it slightly forward, thus taking the pressure off. He did it there and then, and it's made such a difference to me. I wanted to share it with your listeners. Well, thank you, Hulda. You have done. She says she enjoys Woman's Hour. Hulda, it's good to have you with us. I hope you continue Hulda. You have done. She says she enjoys Women's Hour. Hulda, it's good to have you with us. I hope you continue to enjoy it. From Sarah, I'm 55 and I owe much of my happiness and friendship outside the stresses of family and work life.

From being part of an all-female cycling group, Hardly Athletic, we're called, saddles are a constant source of conversation in that group. My undercarriage has been a source of frequent discussion and I can safely say that lots of women are sold saddles that cause them misery and mean they never get to experience the amazing freedom of longer distance cycling and they give up when the sores take over. My biggest bugbear is the gel saddle cover sold as a solution, making great big sofas out of the saddle. It might work for some, but however counterintuitive it seems, the smaller the saddle, the better the comfort. A final plea, so many bike shops are just full of young men who mostly enjoy selling high-spec

bikes to other men. They don't see me or my buddies as credible or interesting or people with specific needs they also expect tall women to buy women's size frames that are far too small for them well that was something we talked about and sarah has enclosed a picture of her group when we cycled from san marlo to nice and there are how many women in this picture um seven women women all of you grinning broadly but i suspect that's because you finished and you're probably only a couple of minutes away from a drink but nevertheless it's a lovely image uh thank you sarah for that uh from pat i'm sitting here nodding furiously says pat like one of those nodding dogs that used to decorate people's car rear windows actually i like those dogs where

have they gone i wouldn't mind one um where to start says The bike. We'll go to a bike shop and women will be routinely offered a low quality bike with low quality parts. And it's pink and it has cutesy little pink flowers stenciled on it. No, I'm not exaggerating. I've had ongoing arguments with one big car accessories company who also sell bikes over their women's range. Look at the men's bikes and they go all the way up to a really high-end quality but the smaller bikes, we're defined by being smaller than men, aren't even sold in the high-end quality and I've stood in bike shops in front of two grinning assistants wearing road shoes and lycra and leaning on my top-end road bike and had them talk down to me and try to sell me a cutesy pink helmet

with flower decorations there's a theme here isn't there and on clothing the size that size thing is common across all exercise clothing i'm a size 18 qualified gym instructor and i hear endless despairing complaints from my women's classes from women who want to be able to buy good kit and can't. Right. Well, there's a gap in the market there. If you want to start your own company and now's a good time, I suppose, to be an entrepreneur or to kick off a good idea if you've got one. What about moving into exercise clothes for bigger figures? That might be something where you could make money. Helen says, I can't thank you enough for the piece today.

My husband is obsessed with cycling. He's one of those lycra-clad 40-plus chaps. Well, this is awful. But this is Helen's own assessment of her husband, we should say. He's one of those lycra-clad 40-plus chaps you see with a slight paunch whizzing down country lanes on a weekend. And he simply can't understand that my female bottom is in complete agony on a so-called normal saddle. I'll be forcing

him to listen to the podcast when he gets home on his bike having cycled the 45 mile round trip to his office and back today. I'm hoping your conversation will make him go some way to understanding that you don't just have to get used to the discomfort. Well, if you are Helen's husband and you're listening now, we hope you're enjoying what might be your first ever edition of Woman's Hour. Hope you stuck it out to the end and heard your reference. We don't have your name, sadly. Peter says it probably won't apply to many of your female listeners but do be aware that bikes and particularly sprung seat posts can have weight limits i'm an obese man says peter and having bought a bike online from a reputable manufacturer to get fit and lose

weight i find i'll have to lose 13 kilos first before i could even get on the bike the weight limit was not something that was mentioned on the website. Peter, thank you for that. And interesting to hear that you have, maybe it's because of the government's campaign, or maybe it's just because of what you've heard about COVID. But interesting that you are indeed trying to lose your weight and the best of luck with that because not easy. And the hardest bit is actually starting, isn't it? As I think I said during the programme, in order to be out there exercising, you've got to feel comfortable to do so.

And in some cases, that might mean that you've got to shift the weight before you can even start the exercise. But best of luck to you. Hope it goes well. Jackie says, I live in Devon and I cycle with a group of ladies in their 60s and 70s.

We've got hills. We all love our cycling. We also have a very supportive cycle shop in Crediton and they're all men. I'm a nurse and I think we need to be all much more positive about cycling. Well, thank you, Jackie. And yes, good luck to you. And let's hear it for that supportive cycling shop in Crediton. Just turned on the radio and missed the start of the cycling conversation,

but needless to say, I'm so pleased to hear it being discussed. I've cycled since I was small and I'm now 45. Over the years, I've had so many vulval issues, including an undiagnosed and incredibly painful clitoral abscess, which went on for years. It took until I was 40 to realise the significance of cycling on my labial health. Needless to say, my sex life has also been hugely negatively effective. I wish I'd known more about my female anatomy when I was 15. I now ride an upright bike,

which helps, but it's no good for sport cycling at speed. Thank you for that. And yeah, I mean, I think the lack of knowledge of our own anatomies is something that's cropped up so much over the years during the time I've been presenting this programme. We have just, we've just got to, I know it sounds a bit sort of hippie-ish and I'm speaking from a yurt, but we've just got to get to know ourselves better, haven't we? Because it will pay off. And lots of you pointing out that they felt that starting the conversation today with an endurance

cyclist and her probably quite unusual problems wasn't the right way to start but we use that as a kind of example of what can happen in what jasmine acknowledged was fairly extreme circumstances because most of us are not cycling hundreds of kilometers are we we're not going to do that we just want to be able to get to the shops or get to work whatever it might be but we are about encouraging everybody to get fit and and do what they can uh barbara says i love cycling i cycle to work well there we are approximately 18 kilometers daily but i'm still fat i worry that cycling is being presented as an amazing solution to obesity but it may not be weight inducing sorry weight reducing for everyone

it does make me happy though it keeps me active it's an absolute joy but it hasn't made me a self thank you for that Barb Barb's in Edinburgh and she's doing a lot of cycling but as she points out hasn't made her skinny well no one wants anyone to be skinny but you do say that it's making you happier barb so i'd settle for that um and this one i think we'll finish with this one from italy uh from beata hope i've pronounced your name properly i'm so glad you're talking about this it's amazing how so-called women's bikes differ only in one respect from men's bikes, the absence of a crossbar, and I never understood why. Well, do I? In fact, my husband with arthritic hips has had to get a so-called women's bike. For 37 years of my working life, I drove a car. Then at 64, I retired to Sicily. Two years ago,

I started using a bike and I've never looked back and I've sold my car. I use a bike every day as a necessity rather than for sport. I got a new one in May and it got stolen in June. I'm sorry about that. Now I have a rusty old one that's got done up with new wheels, chain and brake, but the saddles are clearly designed for males. They are extremely uncomfortable for the female anatomy as you put all your upper body weight on your tenderest parts. Why, oh why, oh why, have designers not come out with some amazing new design of bike saddles for women? Well, I think if you listen to our programme, they sort of have, but as we tried to point out, Beata, everyone is different and not every woman

wants those so-called female saddles any more than they want a so-called women's bike anyway it's been great today um she said with a note of surprise no i shouldn't i very often enjoy doing the program but um some days just um are more entertaining than others we had some great guests guests and interesting topics on the programme today. Keep your thoughts coming for Listener Week, which is August the 24th. That's where you get to decide what we talk about on the programme, every single item designed by you. So get involved via the website bbc.co.uk slash womanshour.

Jenny is here tomorrow, make the most of her. And she's talking about black women in the British music industry what it's like for them at the moment BBC Sounds Music Radio Podcasts Hi, I'm Joe Wicks and I'm just popping up to tell you about my brand new podcast with BBC Radio 4 It's extraordinary, it almost

turbo charges you I'm really interested in the links between physical and mental health and what kind of ordinary everyday activities people do to keep on top of things. I keep fit because it's relaxing, because it absolutely relaxes my mind. And that's so important. So in this podcast, I'm having a chat with some of my favourite people to find out their tips and tricks to staying healthy and happy. For me, it's a full body experience and it's a total game changer. I think you're going to love it. Hit subscribe on the Joe Wicks podcast on BBC Sounds.

Let's do this. I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy.

And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.