Woman's Hour - Finding love, Using donor eggs, VAWG in Northern Ireland

Episode Date: July 7, 2026

New research into IVF and donor eggs suggests that older women face a lower chance of fertility treatment working, even when using young donor eggs - with a marked drop-off from around the age of 49. Experts studying more than 1700 women say the findings challenge the idea that donor eggs can fully "reset" the reproductive clock - BUT that they should not put older couples off trying. Researchers believe age-related changes in the womb lining may be the cause. Nuala McGovern is joined by Dr Ippokratis Sarris, who is chair elect of the British Fertility Society, and writer Grace Ackroyd who had a baby at 47 using donor eggs. Have you ever found love in an unexpected place? At a gig? A restaurant?... What about a library? Four couples have found love in the stacks of Anlaby Park Community Library, in Hull. Nuala is joined by one of them, Mandy and Adrian Strickland, who share their story. What do we know about domestic violence in post-conflict societies, and how important is this knowledge for tackling violence against women in Northern Ireland? Do we see the history of conflict in Northern Ireland reflected in patterns of abuse and violence that women face today? Our guests share their views. Monica McWilliams is a long-standing peace activist and Emeritus Professor at the Transitional Justice Institute Ulster University and Aisling Swaine is Professor of Peace, Security and International Law in Uni College Dublin.Trish Patterson, a 41-year-old mother of twins, has just set a new world record for the National Three Peaks challenge, running 425 miles over five days. We talk to her about her extraordinary feat and what motivates her to keep going.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

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How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On good, bad billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular. Popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days. Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated squid games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

So is he a philanthropist to reshaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on good, bad billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, this is Neula McGovern. and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. It is indeed. Hello and welcome to the program.

Older women face a lower chance of fertility treatment working, even when using young donor eggs, with a marked drop-off from around the age of 49, according to new research. We're going to hear about the findings. Also today, Northern Ireland has been called the most dangerous place in the UK to be a woman. That was according to their Secretary of State, Hillary Ben.

Well, today we're going to look at how the legacy of its violent past is affecting women today. And we'll meet the new record holder as the woman running at Three Peaks Challenge. She did it for almost six days with no proper breaks. How, I will ask, and also why. Plus, finding love in the library. We'll hear from one of four couples who did just that at a community library in Hull. And if you have found love in an unexpected place, we want to hear from you this morning.

We want all the love stories and be loved up over the coming hour. The more unexpected, the spot you met, the better. You can text the program. The number is 844-on-on-social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note.

That number is 0-3-700-100-444. I'm looking forward to hearing from you. But let me turn to that top story I mentioned. And new research into IVF and donor eggs suggests that older women face a lower chance of fertility treatment working, even when using young donor eggs. Experts studying more than 1,700 women say the findings challenge the idea that donor eggs can fully reset the reproductive clock,

but that they should not, this information, put older couples off trying. Researchers believe age-related changes in the womb lining may be the cause. Let's hear more. Let's discuss it with Dr. Ippocrine. Kratis Saris, who is the chair-elect of the British Fertility Society. Also with him is the writer Grace Akroyd, who had a baby at 47 using donor eggs. Good to have both of you with us. Doctor, let me start with you.

The age that has been cited as a marked drop-off for success rates is 49. Tell us more about what was found. Well, good morning, and thank you for bringing up this topic. So, as I said, we had this conventional wisdom that it was all about the egg and that the womb never ages. And lo and behold, we're wrong. It seems that actually like the rest of the body, the womb also ages. So, Rick, it's not so surprising when you say it out loud like this,

but it did take a number of studies to be able to prove it. So this study showed that after the age of 49, the chance of having a miscarriage, or for that matter, then a baby being born goes down compared to women who would be younger, even though you're using donor eggs, So should theoretically be the same. Now, it's important to say that there are some other studies that's come out recently as well that's shown a similar finding, but the cutoff is different. So a study in 2025 showed that might be from 40 onwards a gradual change and a second study

from 45. So although this particular one said 49, it's possible that the effect is also not a cliffage, but it gradually changes from the 40 onwards. It's a very interesting finding. We don't really understand why and how this happens, but clearly it adds to the body of evidence of understanding how the body works and biology and fertility. And can you give us any idea

of how much the difference is in success rates of fertility, be it with 49 with this particular studies or the others you mentioned? Absolutely. I think it's important not to scare people because actually it's still a very successful treatment to try to have a child through donor eggs.

So if you are below 35 or 35 to 40, the chance per embryo becoming a baby is about 45% cumulatively, which means once you used all your aim was about 80%. And if we now look at women in this study over 49, that drops by about a third, so from 45% to about 30% per go and overall from about a quarter drop from 80% to 60%. So though if you say a third less and a quarter less, that sounds a lot.

When you look in absolute terms, still about 60% of women having treatment after 49 with donor eggs will have a child. mentioned there all the embryos, but how many are you talking about? Surely everybody would have a different number? Maybe they just have one. Yes. Well, absolutely. And this is where it's the nuance and the detail and why everything has to be personalized, which is also why I was mentioning the per embryo go, which goes from 45% to 30%. But it is true that in a lot of treatment of donor eggs, there'll be more than one embryos available. So hopefully that gives another go for those that were not successful the first time. But yes, that is the detail and the new instrument comes down to personalising

medicine rather than just looking at these big studies with thousands of women. Indeed. But I suppose many people, as we've spoken about many times on this programme, it can be an industry that is built on hope. And so people are trying to find those specifics that relate to them, even if it is, looking at a larger study. And I suppose to some of those people listening, what would you say to women who may be worried or put off by hearing or seeing a headline like that? I think the most important thing is not obviously to scare people who want to have treatment, but it's important to also have a very strong public message,

which is that if you are embarking in treatment, even if you're trying naturally for that matter, after sort of a certain age, it's important to make sure that you have a thorough medical assessment to make sure that you enter pregnancy as healthy as you can be with all the checks, look at your blood pressure, your cholesterol, your diets and so forth, because we do know that when you are pregnant later on in life, there are higher risks of pregnancy and obstetric risks, so it's important to try to mitigate him.

So it's not so much of being scared about going to treatment, but about doing it in a way which is as safe as possible. Interesting. Grace, let me bring you in here. You had fertility treatment, as I mentioned, with donor eggs and a baby boy at 47. Congratulations. I saw you also had an article in The Times, which said I had a baby at 46, but science is right. 49 is too old to become a mother.

Tell me a little bit about your thinking. I didn't write the headline. So I don't like to judge. As I said, in the piece, I really think it's a very kind of, you know, it's an individual choice for women. And as Dr. Sarah said, you know, it's, you know, there will always be a personalised kind of assessment of women. And obviously my experience, I can only write from my experience.

but I do feel having had a baby in my early 20s and two in between that first baby and my last baby at 47, I really felt it did take a massive toll on my body. And I had a really quite a plain sailing pregnancy with Ray and a really great, great labour, which actually I did, after giving birth to him, I did lose a lot of blood, which I hadn't with my other babies. So it was a very different experience. And I do believe that was to do with my age and possibly, you know, subsequent, sorry, previous pregnancies, because, you know, they all take a toll on the body

and we do age, you know, and I think it isn't surprising that research, really, to hear that our uterus's age as so to the rest of us, really. And still so many questions, as we often find out on this program as well, that women's health and research into it is often way behind where it is with men, specifically with reproductive issues. What made you consider having a child via donor egg

at the age that you were. Did you have any reservations? I was thinking about this last night and thinking at 33, I said no, that's my last baby. And then I found myself kind of 12 years later thinking about having another baby. Because I had met my new partner, we've been together nearly eight years,

and he was much younger than me and wanted a baby of his own. And I understood that. And I also really kind of loved the idea of having a child with him. But we didn't go into it, you know, without knowing the facts. And we did try naturally for over a year. I had a miscarriage.

We did get pregnant. I had a miscarriage. Sorry. And then after a few months of really kind of weighing up our options, it was actually a friend who mentioned donut eggs to me. And I think I'd never really considered them. Because what I found when I was looking for all of these stories of older moms having babies was that there was not negativity around using donut eggs,

but there was a lot of questioning. around how the pregnancy had, you know, how somebody achieved. So there would always be the question, was it a natural conception? So this is what mother's first question was to other women. And I found that that kind of suggests that maybe donor conception isn't seen as maybe as being as good as a natural conception. And so maybe in my mind, I was like, well, no, come on, we really need to have a baby that is biologically both of ours. But then I kind of thought, no, we just, we want a baby. We want to child.

And let's give it a go. And it felt like a gift, really, to have that option. Yeah, it's so interesting because obviously people have a right to their medical privacy. But there is secrecy at times around how a child was conceived. And particularly, I think, with more public-facing people, you know, if we see somebody having a baby at 50 or 51 or 54, but we don't know how or why. And Maddie would say, and, you know, it's not. of our business either, but I suppose it can set up unrealistic expectations, perhaps. But let me come back to you, Doctor, because, you know, if we take a moment hearing Grace's

story and also seeing a headline that there's a mark drop off at 49, that is never a headline we would have seen 15 years ago. No, you're absolutely right. And I think exactly what you said before is very important that we see all these stories now, celebrities having children at later age. And of course, as you they have the right to the privacy, but if people don't know how that might have come about, they might not know the reality. It is true though that the number one predictor of pregnancy is the age of the womb when it comes down to the egg. And that's why when generally speaking, the effect of the wound was not really something that we really noticed because you have such a

marked effect of drop of fertility with own eggs after sort of 45 onwards. It's only really with the advent of egg donation where really any woman at any age can fall pregnant and that's why we in the UK by and large, although there's no legal limit, most people wouldn't treat after sort of of the age of 50 to 50 to 53, so where the natural menopause would be. But technically, there've been pregnancies around the world in women in the 70s and 80s, actually. So it is really the most important aspect. Using donor eggs. Of course, yes. And I'll say using donor eggs. But also, because naturally that is quite unlikely, we couldn't see these other effects of the womb and what happens to the body, which now we can see.

So it's important to have this open conversation. At the same time, as I said, It's not about telling people what to do. It's into what Grace said about how she might have felt about having a donor eggs. I think it's a very personal decision. Society has really changed in our thinking about families and how the family structures are being built. And as a clinician, we have to be there who offer information, but also safety.

It's very important to say that that Grace mentioned it very nicely, how she felt differently between the two pregnancies. And that is not just her thinking. It is a fact of medicine we have all the statistics. So it's about sort of being informed. preemptive, healthy and aware of what are the challenges, but also the opportunities, I guess. I think it's really interesting, actually, and I hadn't realized until I was preparing for this item that there isn't a legal age limit for IVF in the UK.

There are in other countries. Does that surprise you, Grace? It doesn't surprise me, but I suppose my kind of thinking around that was, if you would be, that if you're going to a very well-respected IVF clinic or somebody who specialises in donor egg conception, you're going to be dealing with clinicians who really understand the importance of thorough assessments and giving the advice that is most appropriate for that woman or that couple,

because that's really what it's down to. It's about, you know, anybody can do anything, really, but it's about the responsibility, I think, of clinicians to really coach their, you know, they're not clients, but patients do this in a really empathetic way because nobody needs judging on this. You know, some women might get to 48 and think, I really, really want a baby and, you know, I want to give it one last shot. And I think that's the, you know, if you go to a really well respected IVF clinic, they will, you know, you'll find people there who will give you the information and weigh everything up for you and really talk to you. And obviously there will be a cutoff age, I think, within those clinics as well. they have their own pot-off ages.

Interesting. Let me get back, Doctor, to what we know or don't know. You alluded to the fact, something to do with the lining off the womb, for example, but there's more that we need to understand. What do we not know? What would you like to know in addition to that headline that we've spoken about? I think what I'd like to know is why we see this effect and why the ageing. And yes, that's the question for the entire body. So we know that as women become older, the womb is more likely to have pathology,

like polyps, adenomyosis, fibres. Is that the whole answer? We don't know. Is it the fact that because women have, generally speaking, monthly cycles, every time you shed your lining, it might cause small scarring, and then you end up with a bit more sort of fibrosin scarring that has an effect? We don't know. Is it because of inflammation?

Is it because of blood flow? So many things we don't know. And if you don't know what causes something, then you don't know how to reverse it. And I think the important thing here is not just to say, well, what does that mean? We're going to have more people have slightly. higher chance of having babies, it's possible that the pregnancies might even become healthier.

Because if there's an effect on the womb and how the placenta then develops, maybe those are some of the reasons also why older women have higher complications. So it might not just be something that can help women having IVF with egg donation. It could have a much wider sort of implication. And that's why we want more research. It's not just about the small number of women that might not have egg donation after 49. Grace, before I let you go, how is it having a toddler? Absolutely exhausting.

It just brings everything into perspective. I just think they're the most joyful things. Toddlers, they just know how to live. Lovely way to end. Grace Akroyd, thank you so much for coming on, the writer and also Dr. Epocrates Saris, chair elect of the British Fertility Society. If you have been affected by anything you've heard

in this discussion, of course, infertility can be a very sensitive issue. You can go to the BBC Action Line where there are links to help and support on this topic. Thank you for all your love messages coming in. Let me see. Unexpected places for love. We fell in love dissecting worms in a zoology lab. We had one date before we became engaged. We have been married for 35 years. That wonderful. I met my husband when he visited his grandmother, whose flat was immediately below mine. We met in the summer of 1983, fell in love, and within

three weeks we knew we wanted to get married. We have since clocked up two children and one One grandson, so says Liz. Keep in coming. 844-844. I'd love to hear all your loved-up stories. We're going to talk about the library as a place to find love a little later on this hour. Now, how long can you run without taking a proper break? Well, for my next guest, the answer is five days and 21 hours.

On Sunday, Trish Patterson completed the National Three Peaks Challenge on foot running, get this, 425 miles. The Three Peaks Challenge involves climbing the UK's highest peaks in England, Scotland and Wales, which is a grueling endurance event that people often try to complete in a 24-hour window. Trish took this one step further by running between the peaks. She now holds the world record for a woman running this route and the second fastest in the world. She's joining me from her home in Hyde in South Hampton. Good to have you with us. Trish. How are those legs holding up?

Definitely a bit sore today. They're not their finest, I would say. But they're holding up. But they're holding up and you have been able to do it. I know sport was always a huge passion in your life. Tell me a little bit about how you discovered running in this way. I've always been very active and very sporty and involved in lots of sports, but I didn't really take up distance running until my kids were born.

twin girls and they're 10 years old now. And I started running really as a bit of a, just as a break, like most parents will understand for that silent time. And it just kind of gathered momentum from there. I really like the space of it. I liked that, you know, in a world where we're actually quite busy and disconnected a lot of the time, running is a place where you have to be very present. And I find that particularly in distance running, you really do have to go into this like meditative state in order to do it. But ultra running, where did that come into the picture? So pretty early on, to be honest, I'd always dabbled in it.

But I would say I got into, yeah, probably around 10 years ago. And it just, it went big quite quickly. So I'm thinking that coincides with having your daughters, which you said they're about 10 now as well. And we can understand that. But, you know, what you've done this running almost six days consecutively with no breaks also includes extreme sleep deprivation that maybe you were used to with twin girls, who knows. But why are you attracted to something which is so challenging as that would be?

I think the key thing for most endurance, and this would be probably class as extreme endurance, And for most extreme endurance athletes, I think fundamentally it comes down to curiosity, a curiosity to push your body and your mind to see how far you can go. And I think it's a very, it's got to be almost a very primal desire to do that. It has to be very internally driven because it's so hard. And, you know, that wanting to stop is always there, but it's the ability to override it. Okay. So talk me through because I was reading at,

one point, you know, you're unable to pick yourself up from the floor, but of course, you actually did. What is going through your head? I mean, I've done enough of night shifts to know what sleep deprivation is like. And I just wonder, choosing to do that. And what's the thought process or what is the payoff at the end? Yeah, I think because there's no, there's no like big payoff, really. I mean, it's, it's just knowing in yourself that you've done that. And The big thing with sleep deprivation and any kind of difficult thing, you know, fundamentally it is just like life. You are going to have highs and lows. And I think it's very important to relate that.

You know, life is roller coaster. The race is a roller coaster. The sleep debt, it is roller coaster. You're going to have up and downs. And I think it's about trying to acknowledge that when you're having a down moment, you're having a down moment. But that moment isn't going to define you. you are going to be able to get up and you are going to be able to keep going. And I really try and hold on to that when I'm doing these events.

And having people around you is phenomenal, you know, is phenomenally important as well. I could not have done this challenge without the great team of people around me. It's never an individual sport. It's a, I think particularly with trail running and ultra running, it's one of the few communities that really do come together particularly well in order to help each other. I could not have done this without the many people who gave their time, their efforts, their experience in order to help me achieve it. And do you have to fundraise or is it sponsorship? Because if you have this team of people that are supporting you, how does that happen?

Because also it takes copious amounts of time, I would imagine. It does. And this is, I think, the great thing about the running community. You know, I'm not a sponsored athlete. I'm an all right average athlete, but I have a work, I have a family, I have a normal life. I'm not competing at any high level way. The people who came out for me are normal people. Some of them are fantastic athletes.

Some of them have various skill sets. None of those people are being paid for their time. They are all volunteering their time and they're volunteering to help out because they believe in what we do. They believe in, you know, pushing to aim for something higher. They believe in encouraging each other and providing a supportive framework. And I think the running community is fantastic at doing that. Okay. I read that.

I think you have 11,000 calories. Did I read that right somewhere that you need to be consuming to try and keep up your energy? And I'm wondering, how do you eat? How does it, you know, if there's no proper breaks, what is a break? How are you doing this? So in terms of my breaks, I was trying to stay. as mobile as possible. So I was only really trying to sit down for really a maximum of five to 10 minutes to have a changeover of shoes or something and then trying to get calories in at that time

as well. But realistically, you're just trying to get as much food in as possible. So ice cream was a big thing trying to get as much ice cream in as possible, a lot of chocolate milk, just trying to make it work really, getting it in. And it worked. obviously because you set that record. But you were also motivated, I understand, by someone who was dear to you. Yeah, two weeks prior to the attempt, a very good friend took his own life. And he was a great supporter in our community. He was a real giver.

He'd spent his entire life, basically, supporting others. And I felt that I really wanted to use the platform a bit to raise money and awareness for mental health. So partnered with Mind Over Mountains to try and raise awareness and talk about really the stigma of mental health. Dave Cummings was a fantastic human being who spent his life supporting and helping others. He would have loved this adventure and he loved the mountains. So the idea of, you know, with Mind Over Mountains, being able to, to access counselling in an outdoor environment, which is so different, I think, from mainstream mental health services.

I think it was a phenomenal opportunity and, yeah, wonderful opportunity. Explain that to me a little bit more at the outside when it comes to counselling? So they arrange basically sort of trips and you can, they, where you can go on these walks and you can have access to counsellors and therapists in these environments. It's just, it's so much easier to talk. And we've all experienced ourselves, you know, how many times you've gone on a walk with a friend and you've just had a good talk, you know, in an outdoor space.

And that's crucially important. And particularly, I think, for emergency services where emergency services deal with so much trauma now, it's very, very difficult for them to deal with the stuff that they're seeing and the scale of it. And being able to talk about that in an outdoor environment that is free from judgment, has understanding there,

has the therapists and the counsellors that understand that is really crucial. That's really interesting. I hadn't heard of that initiative before. So thank you for telling us about that, Trish. I know a lot of our listeners are huge fans off the outdoors. We've had the joy of going, walking with them at times as well, while doing the programme. Well, congratulations is the main thing to say to you.

How does it feel now that you've done it? Oh, it feels phenomenal that it's done because, I mean, it was an incredibly hard effort. It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. And I think the recovery is going to take quite a while. I'm struggling a little bit at the moment to walk and to function. I've had barely any sleep the last week. So you're not thinking about something else that you're going to get your teeth stuck into? At the moment, I just want to let my body recover.

Fair enough. It's so important to just let your body recover. when you've done something big. And there's a lot to process. You know, I only finished on Sunday morning. It's Tuesday now, I think. Yes. Just 48 hours in, I know, considering it was all.

There's a lot to process. But, you know, fundamentally I need, there's so many people I need to say thank you to, you know, without the Y team that we had of people coming together, there's no way it would have happened. And I'm incredibly grateful for that, incredibly grateful for the amount that people have put in for the fundraising. and memory of Little Dave, it was a real honour. Well, they will have just heard you thank them on national radio.

So thank you very much, Trish, for joining us. I do want to say, if you have been affected by anything you've been hearing in this discussion, also on the BBC Action Line, there are links to help and support. Thanks for all your messages coming in on love. We fell in love in a genital urinary ward. He was a junior doctor and spent a lot of time putting in catheters. catheters. I was a junior nurse and took them out two weeks later. It was February and the oblique sunlight lit up the samples with a golden glow. It's fascinating how derange one's perceptions of the

world are when falling in love. So says Lynn in Yorkshire. Thank you for that. 84844 if you would like to get in touch. I mean, our listeners, come on, some of the best. And they get to take the reins off the program. You set the agenda by choosing the topics and we will spend the first week of August exploring them together. So we want your fascinating ideas for discussion. We want your fascinating stories from your own lives like those. Maybe something we've heard some of these before, right? Selling everything to decide on a life in a motorhome. There's actually a clip of that particular woman up on the BBC website right now from a previous. listener week, maintaining a long and happy marriage while living on opposite sides of the world.

Remember that story? We would love to hear more of your new unique life experiences. Text Woman's Hour 84844. Find us on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. I know you'll come up with some cracking ideas. We're looking forward to them. And also if it's on The Story of Love this morning, 84844 is also one way to do it. How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos? On Good Bad Billionaire. We're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, Mr. Beast, made his fortune. He's buried himself in a coffin for days.

Counted to 100,000 on camera. And even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet. But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist re-shaping capitalism? Or is he just the king of the attention economy? Find out on Good Bad Billionaire. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to turn back now, however, to spring.

Then the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland called the country the most dangerous place in the UK to be a woman. Hillary Ben described the scale of violence against women and girls as a source of enormous sadness and shame. It came after the violent deaths of two women within weeks of one another. They were 28-year-old Amy Doherty and 23-year-old Ellie Flanagan. That took the number of women violently killed Northern Ireland since 2020 to 30.

Then, two months later, we were reporting that institutional misogyny had been found in the police service of Northern Ireland after a report into the death of Katie Simpson, who died at 21, six days after being admitted to hospital in Derry, Londonderry that was in 2020 with horrific injuries that had been inflicted by her sister's boyfriend. Also, nobody has been convicted yet of the murder of journalist Learra McKee, who was shot dead in 2019. In all of these conversations, it is acknowledged

that Northern Ireland is a post-conflict society. But what does that mean for the women facing violence in Northern Ireland today? Monica Mac Williams is a longstanding peace activist in Northern Ireland

and the co-founder of the Northern Ireland Women's Coalition Political Party. She was a signatory to the Good Friday Peace Agreement in 1998. She's now Emeritus Professor at the Transitional Justice

Institute, Ulster University, Ulster University and Ashlyn Swain is Professor of Peace Security and International Law at University College Dublin. Both have spent years talking to women about the type of violence that they face in their society after armed conflict ends, so in many other places

away from Northern Ireland. Welcome to you both, very good to have you with us. Monica, let me begin with you. Hilary Ben describing Northern Ireland as the most dangerous place to be a woman. How do you see the legacy of armed conflict in relation to that statement?

I think the legacy is important. Northern Ireland was different from other conflicts that I have been in and visited. When we had demobilisation after the Good Friday Agreement and reintegration of prisoners, it was interesting that we always understood these men weren't coming back from a forest or from a faraway place.

they were coming home to their own neighbourhoods. So when I did the first study in 1992, a long time ago, it was pretty horrendous because the war and the troubles, as we call it, were waging all around us. The police couldn't go into areas. When women made phone calls, they had to be accompanied by the army. In one occasion, they used a helicopter. The women didn't make phone calls because of the fear

that they would be re-victimized, by the men in those communities who belong to armed groups. So it was a very dangerous place in the 70s and 80s right up to the time of the peace agreement. And what I wanted to do was to see what difference the peace agreement made, what difference it made to the reforms of policing. I had been training police for many decades. And back in the day, they used to say I didn't join the police to break up families.

and likewise the faith leaders and particularly Catholic and Protestant ministers would say that the families had to be kept together at all costs. So let's be really specific about that in the sense that authorities did not want to intervene in domestic abuse cases. Am I hearing that correctly? That's correct and it wasn't just authorities it was those in civil society, those in the churches,

those in community and youth groups. What went on behind closed doors, stayed behind closed doors. And so that's why I titled it, bringing it out in the open. And I sat down and collected the data. And this was before laptops and computers. And I discovered that there was 1,500 incidents attended every year. Well, that was nowhere near the truth. It's more likely 32,000.

But that's what the police had. had recorded. So data is everything, information is everything. And what we find now is that we have much better records. So when people say there was a spike post-conflict, it's more likely that women have had that stigma removed. The culture has changed. Religious attitudes have changed. But more importantly, they're able to come forward now into accident emergency departments at hospitals to tell GPs who actually should be responding much better than they are to this issue and the police are able to go into these areas. So rather than thinking about it as a spike, I see it as a continuum. And that's important. That there's more reporting now than would have been

previously. Ashley, let me bring you in here. You've worked around the world in Darfur, Kosovo as well as doing research in Northern Ireland. Tell me how you see that spike that Monica has spoken about. Good morning. Thank you for having me on. Yeah, so I've been looking at this issue for quite some time and prompted by experience of working in humanitarian crises globally and observing the way that women would experience different kinds of violences at different times in space and time.

And what has emerged, I think, in global policy and discourse is almost as Monica has pointed to an assumption that there is an automatic spike in violence against women after conflict. And I think it's much more nuanced and much more complex than that and that there are ways that we need to look at it. One is measurement, which Monica has pointed to and the need for data, which is so important. But we don't actually have prevalent studies in the world that look at, you know, linearity of pre-conflict, during conflict, after conflict, of what the rates of violence are. So we can't say on a data basis that there's actual increases that are shown. As Monica said,

another way to think about that is the increased reporting that happens. So certainly in places that I've worked around the world where, for example, there might be a big UN presence come in to support countries to promote peace building and build afterwards. There would be huge campaigns and programs around violence against women and reducing violence against women, which is fantastic.

It offers a language. It offers a language. and understanding removes those stigmas that Monica referred to. And so that's a significant factor there too. But I think also part of us understanding that post-conflict transition and what's happening is understanding what happened through the conflict itself. There's a relationship between those two spaces and time, if you like. And to think about, you know, that in some conflicts, as Monica said,

the armed combatants and others will be still based in their own communities. And others, they'll have moved to different spaces and be returning or being, or be returning from imprisonment. And, you know, having worked in, say, countries in West Africa, particularly women there would have talked about how during the conflict, actually, while armed actor-led violence impacted them greatly, the domestic violence in their home reduced, but then returned when men returned back again.

So there's things like that that we talk about. But I also think the critical part of this is, you know, and while we rely on measurement and data and all those things are very important, a critical question I think about is, you know, what are the sites and sources of violence that happen across space and time? And that it's kind of like an ambulance type of violence that goes up and down according to different, I suppose, actors that come in again as well. For example.

Yeah, so for example, in some places I've worked in, UN peacekeepers will come in. They weren't there before. They're new actors. And so then, unfortunately, as research has shown, some peacekeepers are perpetrating sexual exploitation and abuse against populations that they're serving. and supposed to be protecting. You have places like Liberia where research has shown that what are called MWN's, Memlet Money come in, private contractors,

and again, you have another site in a source of violence, if you like, there. So I think each site is different. We look at the contextual conditions and the enabling factors that may promote certain forms of violence after conflict related back to the conflict, but also might reduce it as well. And so it's really important that we take that context-specific approach and listen to what women are telling us about there, And back to Northern Ireland with that specific context. Monica, I saw that you have called for domestic violence to be re-termed domestic terrorism. Why?

Yeah. At the time when I first did this study, and I was training police officers to take it more seriously, they were saying, well, we joined the police to fight terrorism. And I said, one day you will find this is going to be your priority. Should we ever have a, cessation of hostilities. We won't have a cessation of all hostilities. This is the kind of terrorism that you will have to focus on. And indeed, since the reforms of policing that came after the Good Friday Agreement, that indeed has become the case. But it's not all down to policing. It's also the other professionals who are involved in this. And our concern when we did the study after the agreement to see what difference peace makes. And I went back and used the same methodology in 2016 asking the same questions, obviously to different women.

I found that there were other professionals who weren't coordinating with each other, who weren't sharing information. And that's a really serious issue in terms of the deaths that we have seen. That you do have to have an early warning system. And they were not sharing information, that would have prevented those deaths.

So it is about protection, of course, and we have reduced the number of weapons, and that's something that definitely made a difference. The access to legal and illegal weapons that were being used to terrorise women in their own homes, both by members of the security forces, but also by paramilitaries and armed groups. And whether they had these,

or whether it was fictional or real, it was a threat to the women. So let me come back to you, Ashlyn, on this. Over the past decade, the Northern Ireland Executive have started to refer to the power of paramilitaries in communities as coercive control, a term that we often use when it comes to intimate partner violence. You have spoken to women who've experienced intimate partner violence

and coercive control. Can you explain to us how that can all be related? I probably should mention as well that the paramilitaries they were heavily organised, structured factions divided by opposing ideologies, really from the late 60s to the late 90s in Northern Ireland. Sure, thank you. Yeah. In 2021, I did a study with the Foyle Family Justice Centre in Derry, London Derry, where we went to try and talk to women whose experiences of harm in their intimate relationships

were specifically related to some element of paramilitarism. So I sat down and listened to women, and I will say I was quite taken aback by the levels of involvement of paramilitarism in the harm at this time. As Monica said, her study showed all of this during the times of the troubles and we're now 28 years post, what does this look like? That was my question.

And what was so striking to me was the absolute intricate involvement of the status of paramilitarism and his status as whether he's pretending to be or actually involved in the group and bringing that directly into a relationship. Now, the Independent Reporting Commission and others have referred to paramilitary control

at a community level as a course of control. I wondered about that because we use it, as you said, in intimate partner violence. So what does that look like? And basically, you know, what the study showed was that there was a significant and tactical approach by a man in his relationship who had access to the resources of a group. And what women talked about was the stuff in the background, the stuff that he has access to and the difference that makes. So men would do stage setting where they set up a legitimate basis for her to have fear, which is, I'm involved, I have access to the boys. This is available to you, to him basically in the relationship, setting up those coercive tactics, using then threat, manipulative ploys to get

her to do what he wants. The threat then will be related to the group. She may get visits. It may be, you know, real or feigned, but all she knows is that she lives in a community where for decades, everybody knows the power that these groups have. They have this latent, what I would refer to was a social control dynamic at a community level. And it's that relationship then between the home community level and outwards. And you know, women talked about, one woman talked about, you know, being put through a mock punishment shooting, for example, by her partner, been taken down a laneway and threatened because she had worn makeup when he wasn't around.

Women talked about getting visits or getting knocks on the door. And similar to obviously and building on what Monica has done for decades is this practice then of not being able to go outside the community for help in some, instances, right? And not everywhere. And I think it's important to stress that these are particular communities that still have paramilitaries present there. But for many women, what they talked about was that it was double the fear when he had this membership in the background, that they understood that the latent threat that exists in an experience of domestic violence is there. But knowing that he has access to something else lends layers to that when you just don't know what is going to happen, but anything could happen. And it was that sense that women were living around. so interesting and frightening for the women as well, those fears of threats or intimidation or a retribution of sorts for some perceived slight. Monica, in terms of funding since the 1998 peace agreement,

do you think there's been any recognition of this particularly legacy of the conflict, this violence against women, and a particular strategy, for example, in recognition of those links? I do think that when we, for example, from Beijing onwards, when the phrase was coined women's rights or human rights, that that certainly has been the case as member of the Women's Coalition when we were negotiating the Good Friday Agreement. We were very aware of making sure that women saw themselves in that peace agreement,

hence the right of women to full and equal political participation. When we were asked, why did we need that? We said, well, we had lived in an armed patriarchy. Unfortunately, the British officials took that seriously and that right got in and basically it was about the social isolation of women it was not just the physical abuse it was the financial and psychological abuse

and it was me who coined the phrase coercive control in terms of paramilitaries because I took that term from my work on domestic violence I am a member of the Independent Reporting Commission and one of the four commissioners And again I said, can we write this report and not look at what's happening to women in the community? And I said the coercive control of these guys is still there and the intimidation and all of the forms of abuse. So it was obviously to do with the issues of trafficking and the issues of extortion, the issues of money laundering, all which affects women,

but also the issues of intimate partner violence. And Ashleen had completed her study at the time and we put it in. And so the point I'm making is it's really important to have policies and legislation and to keep up with the changes, particularly in terms of social media, which your programme has often focused on. And the institutional misogyny that we talk about coming in all directions. And so we do have a violence against women strategy in Northern Ireland. And I am very impressed by the communications that they're putting out.

There's hardly a week I don't receive something. and I'm certain all the stakeholders who were involved in that strategy are receiving something. And what I like most about it is that it's targeting the next generation also. They're getting into universities, they're getting into schools, they're getting into youth clubs, and that's what we really now have to focus on. Why is it the case that so many women have been murdered in the past few years? And that has to do with the age of what has been fed to these men, that they still see women as their property,

that they feel somehow supremacists over these women, obsessive, possessive, power and control behaviour. And that's a culture that really does need to change, not just in Northern Ireland, but in other conflict societies and in the UK as a whole. Monica McWilliams, thank you very much for speaking to us. And also, Ashley and Swain, very interesting. It's a topic I think we'll come back to as well. Northern Ireland, of course, one of the areas that we very much do keep across on women's hour, particularly of late, coming to that story because the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland calling the country the most dangerous place in the UK to be a woman. We want to look at its legacy in a post-conflict society.

Thanks to Monica and Ashleen for helping us to do that. Thanks for your messages coming in, 8444. We'll be talking about love and unexpected places in just a couple of minutes' time. but before that, I want to let you know a bit more about something else you can listen to. No doubt you've been caught up in some way with the World Cup, men's football World Cup. It's in full swing.

Maybe some of you stayed up late on Sunday night, Monday morning. There are the highs of victory. There are crushing lows of defeat as well for some. That emotional roller coaster is something that children have to learn to deal with too, whether it's on the football pitch or maybe in the classroom or playing a game at home. I'm sure that resonates with me. Many of you. This week on CBB's parenting download, the presenters, Katie Thistleton and Governor B, are asking how can we teach children to win and lose and cope with all those big feelings that come with both?

They're joined by the former BBC newsreader and now qualified child counsellor, Kate Silverton, Lioness's all-time top scorer football punded, Ellen White. Here's a little of Helen reflecting on what football had taught her about winning. What happens when things haven't gone her way? I have lost a lot, to be fair, so I recognise both to be fair. I recognize the team going absolutely crazy and we're just that they're crying and then I've been on the other side. But I do think it comes all down to empathy because, you know, you've experienced both. And I think you should be able to obviously enjoy those high moments. But I think it's important to go up to the other team and appreciate, you know, that good game and that good performance.

And then go and enjoy it with your team because, you know, I've really appreciated that when, you know, opponents have come up to me and said it was an amazing game. You know, and we've put on a great show and, you know, you've really pushed us to our limits. That competitiveness has really pushed us. And probably in the moment, you've probably gone, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've won, we've lost. You know, it's so hard to control your emotions when you, that euphoria. It's really hard because you want to express those emotions because it's something that maybe that you haven't experienced before, like winning something big or, you know, scoring the winning goal or something.

It is euphoria. And it's very hard to kind of deal with those emotions so quickly. But I think just having that recognition to be like actually someone else, is lost. You know, that's what we want my little girl to be kind, to be a good person overall, you know, no matter anything else to be a really nice human being. And hopefully that translates then in all walks of life. You can listen to that episode in full by searching for the CBB's parenting download, down love. Why am I thinking that because of the amount of messages I've been reading that have been coming in about where you found love in an unexpected place.

Here's a few. We met in a crowded steam room on Valentine's Day of 2025. We are both short-sighted and as it was dark I almost sat on his lap. Another. I met my husband as he caught a burglar in my garage at 2 a.m. one night. He was walking in the village having been out with friends and was inebriated but saved me from theft. So says Caroline. Another. My boyfriend and I met while working in the water and sewage industry. I test for pollution in rivers and he optimises sewage works. We were best friends for a while and then we fell in love. He introduced me to Radio 4 and he especially loves listening to Women's Hour. We love him too then. 844 if you would like to get in touch. Stories are so good. A romantic bunch out there. They love a good love story just like I do.

Want to find out where people found their romantic partner. Now, a library might not initially sound like a place to flirt and find love because it can be very quiet, a little bit daunting at times. But one library in Hull has become the location for just that. And four couples have found love there, including Mandy and Adrian Strickland, who join me now. Mandy and Adrian, welcome to Women's Hour. Mandy, let me begin with you.

So this is Anlabby Park Community Library, run by volunteers. Tell me what happened. Good morning. Yes, Alabi Park Community Library. Yeah, I was a volunteer, well, still I'm a volunteer at the library. We've been a community library for about 14 years. Get to know the customers. Adrian came in regularly to get a book.

We introduced a coffee corner and he said he could bake a cake and we challenged him to make one. Good. Basically. And then he came in the following week with an amazing cake, which we didn't believe he'd made either. and he then went on the cake roter and we became friends for probably 10, 12 years

and then circumstances change and here we are now, 18 months later, we're married. And you got married last month, I understand, Adrian, at the whole Guildhall and then had a reception for friends and family at the library. How did it feel to return a moment? the books to where all this love started? Well, it was quite emotional.

I would say that the whole event was very emotional for me. But I just love the people at the library. The whole group of people is especially good to me. And, man dear, she was a really good friend for many, many years. And we only really met and looked after each other. was when my unfortunately wife died. And I was in quite a bad way. And when I was going to the library,

people put the hands around me and gave me a cuddle. And that was really nice. And then my son invited me to go over to Japan just to rehabilitate. And it was such a long time over there. Somebody I had to look after my affairs while I was out there. And who should put up a hand? But Mandy. Ah.

And I will actually say that, she had quite an effect on stopping me getting in trouble with the law. Because while I was out there, I got summons to go to the court to be a juror. And she sorted that out for me. And lots of other things, which got me in a sticky situation. So afterwards, we got together and, yeah, things went from strength to strength. And here you are now. But you know you're not the only ones.

to find love in the library because I threw it out to our listeners. Here's one. This is Suzanne. She says, while on a year's holiday working as an au pair in France following my divorce,

I met a not so tall, blue-eyed handsome man in the library. He was trying to learn Spanish and I was trying to learn French. It was love at first sight and after two weeks I had to inform my four adult children in Australia that I was not coming back.

Now happily married for 16 years living in the Champagne region giving English lessons after a long career in nursing, I am living a wonderful life. Because there are three other couples, Mandy, that also met at your library. What's the magic among those books?

Well, I think apart from the books, I think, as Adrian was saying, is such a lovely community because we're all volunteers. We've all worked hard to keep the library going. And we meet up for events. and we have a coffee corner. We have one couple met at one of our art groups.

Another couple met, I think, over a jigsaw they were completing in the library. Everybody's just very, it's a very welcoming place. It's not a place where you have to be quiet and we're not quiet. We have lots of things going on. And we rely on each other to keep the library going. So that we're in. So that is a real bond that is there. Sorry, we're always well.

Forgive me for stepping in on you. I know the line is a little bit glitchy at the moment, but we are feeling the love that is coming from Hullin. I love that bond and how all the volunteers kept that library open as well. Another act of love, shall we say, for Anleby Park Community Library. A few more stories coming in. My ex-boyfriend's best friend rang me to invite me to my ex-sus funeral. When I got there, he hugged me, held me close and made me feel safe for the first time in my life.

Later that day, he told me he'd been in awe of me since I was with my ex eight years previous. He asked me to marry him that day. Here we are, 20 years later, happily married with two teenagers and a dog. When something so sad happens, my heart was open to feeling love and grabbing life with both hands. And something truly beautiful came out of all that tragedy. lucky me. That's Tiff and Colin that are getting in touch. Another one. I was walking behind a young woman in our swimming team who was crouched down by the pool chatting to a good looking wealthy man. On an impulse, I pushed her in. Obviously when she came back to the surface, she swore at me,

but on the way back, I bought her a drink and we started chatting. That was January 1972. This August will be our 53rd wedding anniversary. So these stories, they keep on coming. one about a washing machine. Here we go. One more. We met when he came to mend my washing machine and 22 years later we have only just parted company with that washing machine that brought us together. So they're still together. But the washing machine instead has been sent off to wherever it is that dead washing machines go. 844 is the number that so many of you have been getting in touch with. I want to thank both my guests. Adrian and Mandy, thank you both so much for joining us. We love the story of Hull Library and congratulations to the four couples that found

a love in Anneleby Park Community Library. Also a lovely story of how the community came together to keep it open. You're ready for one more. I met my husband in the car wash he owned. We've been married for 26 years. I was desperate to avoid having to pay to get my car washed and so came a marriage from that. Do join me tomorrow. We have the entrepreneur. Emma Greed talking about her new book, Start With Yourself. Fascinating stuff. We're going to talk about that. And also the grief coach and bereaved mother,

Tanya Wilkinson, on the hidden reality of pregnancy termination for medical reasons. So we'll talk about that too. Again, if you've been affected by anything we've spoken about, the BBC Action Line is there for help and support. I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

Silence in court. I'm Lucy Worsley. And in my brand new series, I'll be hearing a the women involved in some of history's most infamous legal battles. Women accused of murder, bigamy and adultery. Through to the shocking offence of not knowing their place. With a team of all female detectives, I'll explore the lives at the centre of some extraordinary courtroom dramas,

asking, has the justice system truly changed? Lady on Trial with Lucy Worsley. From BBC Radio 4, Listen now on BBC Sounds He's widely recognised as one of the greatest footballers in history He's won the prestigious Ballandour Award five times He's the all-time leading goal scorer in professional football And according to the Bloomberg billionaires index

He's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status Guess who we're talking about yet? That's right, good bad billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service Listen now, wherever you get your BBC podcasts.