Woman's Hour - Fiona Shaw, Prositution Law, Director Rebecca Frecknall

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

Award-winning actor Fiona Shaw has starred in Killing Eve, Bad Sisters, Fleabag, True Detective: Night Country, Echo Valley and even as Aunt Petunia in Harry Potter, among many other things. She’s won and been nominated for several Laurence Olivier awards for her work on stage and she’s even directed opera. Now starring in a new film adaptation of Deborah Levy’s novel, Hot Milk, Fiona plays Rose, who goes to Almería, Spain with her daughter, Sofia, played by the brilliant Emma Mackey, to try to find a cure for Rose’s mysterious paralysis at an experimental clinic. Fiona joins Nuala McGovern live in the studio to discuss it.The Scottish Parliament is looking for opinions on a proposed bill which would change the laws on prostitution in the country. It targets those who buy sexual services by creating a new criminal offence of paying for a sexual act. If passed, it would criminalise those buying sex, while decriminalising those selling it. The woman behind the bill, MSP Ash Regan, speaks to Woman’s Hour about why she wants the change, and responds to criticisms that it could make sex work less safe. Today government ministers have launched a review of UK parental leave and pay to reset the system and speaking yesterday the Education Secretary Bridget Phillipson said people were scared of having children because of the high costs and she wanted “more young people to have children, if they so choose”. But getting to become a parent can sometimes require ongoing fertility treatment meaning time away from work. And Fertility Matters at Work are calling for those undergoing this support to have the legal right to take time off for their appointments. They've published a report on it and the author Becky Kearns joins Nuala. She's the co-founder and CEO of Fertility Matters at Work. A new production of Eugene O’Neill’s A Moon for the Misbegotten, starring Ruth Wilson, is on at the Almeida theatre in London. Nuala is joined by multi award-winning director Rebecca Frecknall to discuss the central character Josie, and why the father-daughter relationship at the heart of the play spoke to her. Women’s cricket in England has been through trials and tribulations recently. The team lost 16-0 to Australia in the Women's Ashes at the start of this year, and were knocked out of the T20 World Cup at the end of last year. But in June, after the appointment of a new coach and captain, had a clean sweep in their T20 series against the West Indies. Now they’re facing India in a series of T20 matches, and suffered a defeat in their first match. Player, commentator and podcast host Melissa Story shares her thoughts on the team’s performance, as well as what’s happening in women’s cricket on a local level. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. deal ratings and price history. So you know a great deal when you see one. That's cargurus.ca, cargurus.ca. BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Women's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the programme where we are excited to have the acclaimed actor Fiona Shaw with us in just a moment. Her latest film is Hot Milk. We want to talk about that, but also her many, many, many more achievements. Also today, should those undergoing fertility treatments have a legal right to take time off work for their appointments? Well, we're going to hear about such a proposal from one group. You might have

also seen that the Education Secretary, that's Brigid Philipson, was writing in the Telegraph calling for more young people to have children. So more on that this hour. And Alba MSP Ash Regan is here as the Scottish Parliament is looking for opinions on a proposed bill which would change the laws on prostitution in the country. The bill would target those who buy sexual services by creating a new criminal offence of paying for a sexual act. If passed it would criminalise those buying sex while decriminalising those who are selling it. Now, do you think buying or selling sex should be illegal? You can text the programme the

number is 84844 on social media or at BBC Woman's Hour or you can email us through our website for a WhatsApp message or a voice note that number 03700 100444. We have Rebecca Frecknell, director of a new production of Eugene O'Neill's A Moon for the Misbegotten, she's also in studio this hour, and we need to talk about England's women's T20 cricket. Off to a rough start against India, but can they turn it around? But let me begin before all that. With the woman sat in front of me, she has starred in – where do I begin – Killing Eve, Bad Sisters, Fleabag, True Detective, Night Country and Petunia, Harry Potter films.

They're just some of them. She's won and been nominated for several Olivier Awards for her work on stage. She's even directed opera. We have the BAFTA winning and Emmy nominated actor Fiona Shaw. Good morning. Good morning. Now, you might have even heard Fiona this morning on Radio 4, exploring what the author Virginia Woolf has to teach us today. So you can catch that on BBC Sounds if you missed it. But she's joining me today as

she's starring in a new film adaptation of Deborah Levy's novel Hot Milk. So Fiona is playing Rose who goes to Almiria in Spain with her daughter Sofia played by Emma Mackey and they're trying to find a cure for Rose's mysterious paralysis at an experimental clinic. Intriguing? Yes. Tense? Very. It goes through a lot of those family dynamics that that will resonate with so many. Well, welcome back to Woman's Era. Let's talk about this title, Hot Milk. For me, it conjures up many images. What does it mean to you? Yes, I don't know what it means to me, except that it is very hot between the mother and daughter and maybe the milk. Yeah, certainly not cold milk.

No, you know, or even body temperature milk. No. I think I suppose it's about the intensity of a mother and daughter. Perhaps even scalding. Yeah. But Rose, what a character. How would you describe her, Fiona? Well, anybody I meet who has seen the film say, oh my god, Rose is a terrible

character and she's manipulative and really frightening and I actually really enjoyed Rose. I think because she's brave, who she reminds me a little bit of is Winnie in Happy Days, you know, who people think is austere and about to die. In fact, full of life. And this woman has this neurological, she doesn't know what it is, she thinks it's physiological. She can't walk, but sometimes she can. And so that sets up a sort of hair running, is she making it up or is it real? And I think she's someone brave enough to try and do something about it. But she doesn't do it alone.

And I'm just thinking with some of the adjectives you've used to describe her, I think I'd add exasperating, perhaps selfish, kind of sensitive, but not in the way of touchy feely in the sense of ready to be offended, but doesn't care so much about other people's emotions at times. Well, it doesn't notice her daughter's emotions, but I think that's just an exaggeration of things that are very true to life. You know, the mother keeps saying, get me some water, get me this, get me that, but she also loves her daughter. But of course, she doesn't and says the daughter should continue her

studies, but doesn't realise that she's the reason the daughter can't continue her studies. So these sort of circular locked cells that they've locked themselves into, I think are very true to many, many claustrophobic relationships. Yeah, and I think what we're also, we're trying to guess the whole time or interpret what is going through their minds, because there's not tons of dialogue in it. No, there's not tons going through their minds. I think when sometimes I was trying to come up with some very good ideas for some scene and Rebecca Lankovitz, who directed the film and wrote it, she would say, you know, you must remember, Rose's life is very small.

It doesn't mean that she has a small mind. In fact, she's reading The Mill and the Floss as she's on this trip and so she's very keen on Maggie Tolliver. So there's a kind of a literary element to Rose. But she's in a wheelchair and you know, they never go out. They haven't got any money and so they live a very small life. And I found that very interesting that she was full of energy but she's actually lives quite a small life. Yes and we're trying to figure out what the next steps might be. No pun intended, because we never know whether she's going to walk or not.

But there is a relentless nature to her as well. And we could see Sophia, her daughter at times, just exhausted in her capacity as carer. We've done many programs on how difficult it can be to be a carer and what that breaking point can be. But there is one aspect, we mentioned the book and Deborah Levy, but one difference is that your character Rose is Irish only in the film. How come? Because Rebecca felt, Amir, in the book, she's from Yorkshire, and it just meant that I would

have to play somebody from Yorkshire, which I could have done. But there's always a filter between yourself and if you play from another place, you're always worrying about the accent or thinking about it. And I didn't mind at all mastering Yorkshire, but Rebecca wanted to write it. She may have also wanted to slightly adjust the book to the filmic possibility. So the story of Rose, which becomes evident at the end of the film, is an Irish story. And Rebecca, of course, is a writer in her own right. But Deborah seemed to be supportive. Deborah Levi, who wrote the book, was very supportive of all of that.

Yes, and I won't give any spoilers. But I wonder, how did you get into the character of Rose who's using wheelchair, as you mentioned, and also were you drawing on any people that you know considering that the character is Irish? I mean, I'll be honest, they've given echoes of various characters I've met through my life. Yes, and my mother. I mean, there's my mother. I mean, there's a lot of my mother in it, in that my mother used to love, if the sun came out at all my mother would run into the garden and take off all her tops and sometimes you know lower her trousers just to get sun on her thighs and my brothers would arrive and go, mom just pull up your trousers please. Oh no, I'm getting some rays. Well I did that,

you know, I did a lot of kind of my mother's things. And wearing sunglasses with your reading glasses is very... I sort of recognise all of those things. And it's something to do with an intensity of being that I think Irish people do have. Doesn't matter how big or small your life is, there's a sort of drama to being. You know, a scene is coming to my mind now. This is not a spoiler, anyone. And Rose is sitting there, as so many of us might have done, in her bra with the shirt open because she's a bit hot, while working on something at the table.

And it's just very evocative, I feel. It's the opposite of sexy, isn't it? It's just the opposite. But it's very practical. Very recognisable. So I enjoyed playing her. I enjoyed the selfishness of her. I enjoyed it.

I enjoyed the obliviousness of her daughter because it's much easier to play that than to be on the receiving end of it. Yes. Yeah. You are a steensailer. There is no way about it whenever I watch my eyes are locked on you. But it is interesting because you have another Irish character which also exasperated me at times, which was Angelica in Bad Sisters, the second season.

If anybody hasn't seen it, it's a gang of sisters. Angelica is the neighbor and this cohort of leading women, really, who's there. I'm wondering about her character as well. Is there any similarities you can see between Rose and Angelica? Yes, I mean there's something about maybe the Irish way of life that is chaotic and it's sort of lawless. You know, I remember meeting people who said they go to Ireland to do hunting.

Not a sport I necessarily support, but they said because there's no rules. And even, you know, Irish football, it sort of has very few rules compared to rugby and soccer. So there's a kind of lawlessness about the way of being, I think. You know, you're reminding me as well, my father-in-law, when he was over driving and somebody had gone into, you know, the yellow box that you're not meant to enter while driving and somebody had gone into it and he was a bit irated. I was like, oh, it doesn't matter.

Just the yellow box, you know, it's there. There's a red light. You can go through it or not. Go through it. Up to yourself. There's a lot of that. A lot of interpretation, as there is with hot milk as well. And how difficult is that, though, as an actor to be able to play a character that won't be interpreted in a certain way? Because I feel with this film, you can

interpret it in many ways, including what happens a little later in the film, like to be able to give that ambiguity of character. Well, I really don't think acting is in that way. You know, I think it's very hard for actors to talk about it. And they always sound a bit naff when they say things, but it's not colouring in. It really isn't making a shape and then colouring in. You sort of set a process going. And when I watch Totmilk, I was very surprised at what I was looking at.

I mean, because, of course, the edit makes certain choices. And sometimes I laughed. So I am as alienated from what I did in the film as the audience is, because all I'm doing is from the inside, just making a series of decisions and hoping they will have one effect. Of course, they often have quite the opposite effect. And I think that's maybe our job is to not judge it. I don't judge Rose. I don't judge Rose and I don't judge Angelica. I just play each beat because I think the one thing actors can do is celebrate the diversity of our being, you know, that we have a much bigger pendulum swing of potential than we think. So you think is your character nice or not nice? Who's to say? You know. And it's about the dynamic as

well. Actually we have Rebecca Frecknell on later, as you know, and with the Eugene O'Neill play, and a lot is centered on the daughter for their relationship in that. But it can be a very different relationship to the mother daughter. I think the mother daughter relationship is, of course, I mean, very intense and and it's lifelong. And my mother is 99 and I still have quite an intense relationship. Which is wonderful.

With her. It is wonderful and the other day on the phone I said, she said, but are you good in health? I really think I should be asking you that. But she, you know, that's that amazing care that a mother has which is are you good in health? And that all is all that matters to a mother has, which is, are you good in health? And that is all that matters to a mother, maybe. But good and health, to me, that term is from a different era. Which your mother is. She's almost a hundred years old. And it's amazing, I think, if you have parents, if you're

lucky enough to have parents that live to a ripe old age, that you have still that connection with, for example, in your case, the 1920s of Ireland. Yeah, and you can re-think your view of your mother. You know, my mother's alive long enough for me to have adored her, hated her. And now I'm beginning to think, actually, maybe there's something to be said for her. You know, I mean, I really there's a lot to be said for her, you know, I mean, I really, there's a lot to be said for her, is that she, you know, the fantasticness of living a long life means that she was, of course, a product of her age. And for me then, of course, much more conservative than I would like, and yet not conservative. I mean, completely, you know, wild in her behavior.

But that embarrassed me like mad, you know, in my earlier life, and now I just accept her. of that embarrassed me like mad, you know, in my earlier life. And now I just accept her. Yeah, yeah. It's a wonderful thing to be able to see that trajectory and narrative. And you know who we had sitting in that chair not so long ago? Your pal, Julianne Moore. Ah, yes. Yes.

She was in for her role in Echo Valley, which the old Gleeson was in it as well. So good art showing as well. You were the friend in that particular show, which I really enjoyed as well. Another one with an awful lot of twists. How does that feel, whether you're in a more leading role or a more supplementary role? Well, I'm often in a supplementary role and I really like that because... Tell me more about that. Partially, age is that I think when you play leading roles you do have to get up at 430 every

morning which is you know people in this building have to do that sometimes and and it's very tiring and the great thing about playing somebody who is the character who disrupts the event means that you have a lot of energy. If you're playing the detective, you're always saying, and now Mrs. Bloggs, when did you in fact see Mr. So-and-so stab the bug? And that's quite hard work. But actually, if you can sort of intensify or concentrate the arrival of a character if it's smaller. But I very much was pleased and proud to be asked to play Rose because that was a lot, you know, a bigger part. Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know, you talked about

tiredness. I don't think that doesn't seem to come into that when I'm looking at your resume, for example. Not only are you acting, you direct operas as well. I have directed quite a few operas. Yeah, I went through a phase. Where does that come from? Well, at the end of a play, Testament of Mary, that I did on Broadway, I realized I was very tired of acting, partially at the opposite end of the day, that I was having to stay up very late and starting work when everybody else was going home. You know, at six o'clock you're going in having a run or then having a shower and preparing and there's something at odds. So I began to feel I must start living in the same rhythm as most people in the world and in I didn't know which way my life was

going but I was offered actually Rides of the Sea at the English National Opera so I directed it and I got completely addicted to a sort of postman's holiday because I was in a rehearsal room with people who were very talented singers and performers. I was with designers, all the stuff that I knew, but I didn't have to perform it. And I did quite a few. I did The Rape of Lucretia and I did Figaro. I did lots of things and I really enjoyed it. But then I began to do more television and I for a while was directing operas and doing the television and that really did blow my mind and my sleep. So I sort of backed off from the operas for a while.

But I read somewhere, just as we were talking about Wimbledon yesterday, that you always wanted to be a tennis player. Yes, I really want to be a tennis player and I am going to Wimbledon for one day this week, next week. But I loved it, I loved it. But you see, I wasn't really any good at it because I was a show-off. I thought that was good for tennis. No, I don't think so. I think, you know, I would lose the match point because, you know, I do something funny. I mean, that was really, I think, you know, nature's telling you where you're meant to be. Yeah, I just wasn't able. I had no killer instinct. I just didn't have that.

Well, I'm not even I didn't even get the killing Eve, which is another story. But, you know, I had an idea then for you because I was thinking, oh, Irish tennis players, we haven't had that many. And then I went back looking and there was a woman called Lena Rice who won Wimbledon. Yeah. Irish woman, the only Irish woman ever to win in 1890. So I'm giving that to you as my gift, that you should do a film on her looking back on her life and how did she ever become the Wimbledon champion from Ireland. And I've always wanted to play a tennis player because I was taught in the

old-fashioned way of you know wooden racquets so I know how to hit now the new way with this double handle thing is completely inanimate to me but... So do you still play tennis? Not very often. I do every now and then but this new racket thing I can't stand it's a bigger racket and it hits the ball with a really big slap rather than stroking the ball which is what we were taught to do. I see and you know we were doing yesterday was about British women in tennis and that there's the strongest lineup they say since the 1980s. You are Irish but I have noticed with many of my English or British colleagues and friends that they always thought you were English. Well I have lived here for 40 years and you know I

have assimilated into the culture of the country and I've loved living here. I came to go to the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art at Radon and I loved that. And they did try and beat a bit of Irish since out of me which they failed in a way. But I've played a lot of, but then I've enjoyed, if it's a Shakespeare I can play with my own accent. So I played Richard II as an Irish person which was a bit contradictory. But you can do that. But I've loved playing English people. I've loved it. And I've never felt, I think the rhythms of the English voice is such an attribute to how England's history has built itself. So, you know, the authority. Irish people speak in a minor chord and the English speak in a major chord.

So interesting. Because I found when I was in the States that I would slip into an American accent and I'm here years at this stage, I have an English husband but somehow the English accent has not slipped into mine yet. No, no, no. Well it won't slip. I mean they used to say, people used to say to me, can you lose your accent? I thought no, what you mean is can I gain another accent? Now you have been listed as one of Ireland's greatest film actors, how does that feel? I think it's a new listing starting can I gain another accident? Now you have been listed as one of Ireland's greatest film actors. How does that feel? I think it's a new listing starting today by you. I've never... I'll put you at the top. And I think I'm very late runner at it and I've

loved it. After these operas I began to do things like Killing Eve or Fleabag and I didn't realize I'd enjoy it so much. So now I'm all in. Are you having a ball? I'm having a ball. I'm being offered the most wonderful variation of parts. And as much as in the theatre, which is what I was always worried about, I wanted to play a big range of things and I'm enjoying that. Well, I know you did mention Sunport Theatre. Maybe we will see you in the coming year.

You'll come back to us anyway. Hot Milk is in cinemas from the 4th of July. Some of you may have heard Fiona earlier this morning on Radio 4 on Artworks where she explored the relevance of the author Virginia Woolf today so you can catch that also on BBC Sounds. Thanks so much for coming in. Thank you very much. Now a bill that would criminalise the purchase of sexual acts in Scotland has been introduced at Holyrood and those with lived experiences of the sex trade in particular are being invited to share their opinions.

The Members' Bill was introduced by Ash Regan, a member of the Scottish Parliament for the Alba Party and if passed it would criminalise those buying sex in Scotland while decriminalising those selling it. Now for context, in England and Wales and Scotland as things stand, the acts of buying and selling sex are not illegal, although many activities associated with prostitution are, such as soliciting sex in a public place. In Northern Ireland it is a crime to pay for sex but it's not a crime to sell sexual services. The Scottish Members' Bill has its critics who say it would make prostitution or sex work, as others call it, more dangerous. Ash Rhegan, MSP, joins me in studio. Good morning. Good morning. So, you have been pushing for this bill for the past couple of years. Why?

I have. Actually, I've been working on this for a very long time. So, I actually volunteered for the previous member of the Scottish Parliament, who was a Labour member, when she was trying to bring very similar legislation. And I think that must have been something like 12 years ago and that was before I was even elected. So I've been working in this area for a very, very long time. And the reason I've been doing that is because I am a bit of a campaigning politician, I think it's fair to say, and my main areas of interest are women's rights and protecting women and protecting children. So I see this bill as something that's extremely long overdue.

And I'll put that into context for you because the Scottish government has already said that it accepts, as many people do, as international law does, that prostitution is violence against women. And if you hold that position, then surely you must be looking to create a legal framework, a legislative framework that means that you are reducing the market of prostitution, you are challenging that demand for prostitution, and protecting people from getting drawn into what is an incredibly damaging, dangerous and abusive system, the system of prostitution. And that is your opinion when it comes to that work and also that term. The terms here are contentious as we know.

Well, I don't think it is an opinion. I think, you know know if you look at how many people have been murdered in Germany for instance and Germany has obviously started off with the decriminalization model which a lot of people on the other side of the argument for me advocate. You know 99 women in prostitution have been murdered in Germany and even though they've now moved to more like a regulatory model 80 percent of German prostitution is underground. But I'm not saying yeah and those people will probably not say that it doesn't potentially be model, 80% of German prostitution is underground. It's quite shocking. Yeah and those people will probably not say that it doesn't potentially be dangerous but some do want sex work to be available or to be legally recognised. The terms are contentious as well, some people prefer to say sex worker but you do say prostitute probably for the

reasons you're outlining I imagine. I would and I would just say that the term sex work is not a neutral term. So I think we have to be very clear about that. And some would say the same about the word prostitute. Well, perhaps they would, but I've spent, as I said, over a decade speaking with women that have been exploited in prostitution. And many survivors of prostitution would say to you, if they were here sitting in front of you now, they would say to you, how on earth could you ever call being raped for money

20 times a day any kind of job? I think most people thinking about that would understand this is not a job. And that is one opinion. And I want to come to some others as well, because it is really interesting that you're looking for views with people as they say have lived experiences or looking for their opinions on this bill. So you are, have I got this right, effectively trying to end the sex trade in Scotland by criminalising its purchase? So the bill is based on what many people call the Nordic model. Sometimes it's called the equality model. Many countries around the world have now implemented this legislation. The first one was Sweden. So Sweden actually did this over 25 years ago

now, they did it in 1999. And they brought it in because they felt that you couldn't possibly reach really equality between the sexes if women and girls were for sale. So they decided they would take a stand and they would do it. And it was obviously it was quite a bold thing to do at the time. And lots of other countries would be watching them to see how it worked. And I've obviously just told you about the murder statistics of women in prostitution in Germany, which obviously follows the opposite model. But in Sweden, since they changed the law on prostitution, not a single woman exploited in prostitution has been murdered. But I will say it won't completely get rid of prostitution. What it

does do and what all the international evidence backs up is that it shrinks the market. So what we are trying to do is we shrink the market down as much as possible because that is the way you prevent people being harmed in prostitution. Prostitution is inherently dangerous and inherently unsafe. You cannot make it safe. All you can do is reduce the number of people that are drawn into it. Now there was one woman who spoke to the BBC who said that she believes this change in the law that you're calling for would make her terrifyingly unsafe. If buying sex is criminalised, she fears that the good clients will disappear and you'll

be left to people who don't care about you as they don't care about breaking the law. She is a sex worker, I should say. What's your response to her? Well, as I said, prostitution is already inherently unsafe. It's so bad for the people that are in that industry that many of the people that come out and there was one study that showed that women who've been exploited in prostitution have similar rates of complex PTSD so not even normal PTSD as Combat veterans and victims of state torture now one survivor put it to me like this and she said it's not laws that kill people It's punters

So what we're trying to do is we're trying to make this as safe as possible. And also the international evidence from the countries where the Nordic model has been implemented, it just isn't backed up. So France would be a great example. So France brought the law in a few years ago now, there's been an opportunity, but they're enforcing it very, very strongly. It's got great support of the public. The public are supporting it to the tune of about 78% of the public support this law. And it has been shown that it's been tested in court, in fact. There was a big court case in the European Court of Human Rights where this very argument was tested in court and it was found that it absolutely does not affect the safety of people working in prostitution. In fact,

it is the opposite. Let me read a little more. This is from the Scottish newspaper The National. The sex worker safety charity National Ugly Mugs is the name of it urged MSPs, you will have heard this, to pull the plug on what they call your misguided and dangerous bill. The chief executive is Lindsay Walton said sex worker groups alongside leading NGOs like Amnesty and the World Health Organization have long warned that criminalizing the purchase of sex only serves to make life more difficult and dangerous for sex workers while having no impact on trafficking and exploitation. The Scottish government published a paper last week on this and found that evidence was limited on the impact of this approach. Your thoughts? Well I have to say to you that Amnesty

are very much the outliers here and have based their position on some very, very questionable information. And they are certainly not adhering to the international obligations on this. For instance, we have CEDAW, we have the Plurmo Protocol. All of these say that states have an obligation. They must suppress human trafficking and they must reduce the market of prostitution as much as possible. And I'll come back to your idea about the, we would call that the myth of the good buyer. There are no good sex buyers. We know this. If people only need to spend really just a couple of minutes looking at one of the websites that cater to punters, and there's one called Punternet. And if you just go on there and

just have a cursory glance at the way that these men are reviewing women like takeaway meals and talking about how compliant they are, I think you would understand that good men do not buy sex. And these are sex workers, of course, whose voices I am putting to you in the sense of they say they're good clients and bad clients. Also, I should say I don't have Amnesty International to respond to your characterization of the evidence or the data that they are relying on. And one more thing I was just thinking of as well. I know we're talking about women and girls that you talk about

that are caught up in this, but of course, there will be men that sell sex as well. And that would I would imagine with this bill also apply to them. Of course, it does. The law would apply equally to them. The reason that I specifically and mostly talk about women and girls is that they make up 90% of, I think actually it's 96% of the people that are selling sex are female. So it's right, I think, that we really do concentrate on the women and girls that are caught up in this inequitous trade. So I've mentioned some of the pushback that there has been to your bill. How are you planning

to convince those who do not agree with you? Well, my bill has already gained cross-party support, so it has good support in the Scottish Parliament. My bill is also supported very well across Scotland. The consultation shows that there's responses from frontline services. So these are services that work with women that are exploited in prostitution, day in and day out. And they support this approach. I also have support from faith organizations, from local authorities, and so on and so on. So I think the Scottish government, because you mentioned them a moment ago, they need to have a think about, does John Swinney, so that's the First Minister of Scotland, does he really want to preside over what many people would call a pimp state? Because if you have brothels

operating in plain sight as we do in Edinburgh, then John Swinney needs to explain why he thinks that's appropriate and how that is compatible with the Scottish government's stated aim that they are trying to get rid of violence against women and girls. And I do not have John Swinney but I do have a statement from the Scottish government spokesperson who says as with all members bills we will give it full and careful consideration and take into account Parliament scrutiny. What timeline do you see on this Ash? Well most bills I would say go through the Scottish Parliament in about nine months so I would imagine that the call for evidence from the committee has just gone out. I myself was then giving evidence to the committee, the Criminal Justice Committee

last week, and it will progress in the normal way. So I would imagine it will progress to its three stages, hopefully completing around about January or February next year. Lots of comments coming in, but here's one. Buying or selling sex. An interesting subject. How do you apply these rules to areas like OnlyFans and these influencers who earn a good living selling sex and even promote and celebrate their achievements has been empowering for women? So this bill is limited only to the physical in-person act of buying a sex act or intending to buy a sex act. Interesting, thank you very much for coming in studio, we'll continue following

this story, I'll continue reading questions or answers that have come in in relation to it. Ash Regan is the MSP for the Alba party. Thanks. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue, and beauty. One of the 20th century's most amazing characters, a Hollywood sex symbol whose story you might think you already know.

Hedy Lamarr, the film star. But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart. Her scientific contribution, no other star has been able to match. We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, untoold Legends, Hedy Lamarr. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Thank you very much. Parenting appears to be a daily topic in the news at the moment. Today government ministers have launched a review of UK parental leave and pay to reset

the system. We were speaking yesterday, of course, about paternity leave as well. Yesterday, the Education Secretary, Bridget Philipson, was saying that people were scared of having children because of the high costs, and she wanted, I quote, more young people to have children if they so choose. But becoming a parent can sometimes require ongoing fertility treatments for some, meaning time away from work. And Fertility Matters at Work are calling for those undergoing it to have the support and the legal right to take time off for their appointments. They've published a report on it. The author

Becky Currens joins me now for a few minutes. She's the co-founder and CEO of Fertility Matters at Work. Good to have you with us, Becky. So what did you find? So, I mean, we hear daily from people who are going through fertility treatment and struggling at work. One of the main things we found was that 38% of people considered leaving or had left their job as a result of going through fertility treatment. We also know that 99% said it had a significant impact on their mental health. We also know that 77% took time off to go through treatment but 63% of those took sick leave

and anecdotally one of the main reasons for that was concealing the fact that they're going through treatment. So what we found is that organizations aren't set up to support those people. But what I'm thinking, particularly that last point that you make, Becky, that they want to conceal their treatment. So I'm thinking if there was specific leave that was designated for those going through fertility treatments, would people take it up because there is that privacy issue? Yeah, and there is still this stigma that surrounds going through IVF fertility treatment and effectively if you are saying that you're going through fertility treatment, you're showing your hand much earlier than you would do in a world that we know there is still maternity discrimination.

But what people are finding is that where there is no signal or recognition from their organisation or through legislation that this is something that they go through and they need to have time for, they're left with no other choice but to hide it. And actually what we find is where with organisations that we work with who do provide that leave and support, more and more people are coming out, they're talking about their experiences and they are getting that support from their employers. So I think in a way we need that legislation for those employers that aren't providing that support, but also to make people feel safer to be able to go for these appointments as well. And you want it to be categorised as a medical procedure as opposed to an elective procedure?

Tell me about that. Yeah, what we are finding. So what we found is that many employers actually categorise this as an elective procedure and even have it alongside things such as cosmetic dental surgery. I've been through IVF, I know hundreds of women who have been through IVF and people and it isn't a choice that you take to go through IVF, it's circumstance that brings you to it, it is a medical treatment and it's a really, really difficult medical treatment to manage alongside work because there's a lot of unpredictability, appointments can be very last minute and it can be really difficult to juggle. So what we want is for employers to recognise this and provide

that time off and we've been campaigning for that statutory right and also protections for those people as well because there's no legal route to take that time off at the moment. But you didn't get your amendment into the employment rights bill speaking to MPs. So what are you going to do? So we are continuing to campaign in Parliament. We were there last week with our new reports. It's great that we're on here today being able to raise awareness. And we're working with Alice MacDonald MP to really bring this to the forefront. And we've been sharing stories of women who have lost their jobs as a result of sharing that they're going through IVF

and I think because this is a topic that has been hidden in plain sight there are more and more people that are going through fertility treatment as we go through as the HFEA results showed last week it's something that we really need to bring to the forefront. But it must be illegal to lose your job due to IVF procedures. So at the point of embryo transfer, that's when your pregnancy maternity legislation protections kick in. But for those appointments before that, there is no specific legislation to protect you. And one of the things we found is that the EHRC code of practice, which many

employers look to when putting policies in place, actually compares a woman going through IVF with a man having cosmetic dental surgery. And so I spoke to a woman who did try and take her employer to court, but actually there was no legal route for her to be able to actually claim sex discrimination or otherwise. And so there's a real gap in support. I understand. I do want to get your thoughts though, Becca, before I let you go on what you make of the Education Secretary's comments that more young people should have children. I think it's very much an individual choice. She does say if they so choose.

She did say that. If they so choose, yes. But what I would really like to see, and I feel like there's a very, there's a real lack of focus on, there's actually a huge proportion of people who want to have children but can't and need that help to do so. So what I'd really like to see is support for those in the workplace through these employment rights, but also really looking at fertility access in the UK as well, because there's so many people who desperately want to have children contributing towards the economy, the future economy, and helping the birth rate here in the UK, but they just can't due to financial reasons, access reasons.

So it's another reason that I campaign and do the work that I do. That is Becky Kearns from Fertility Matters at Works, their community interest company and their campaign launching just days after the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority reported that IVF births make up more than 3% of births in the UK in 2023. So that's about one child in every classroom which is just one stat to think about. We did request a statement from the government they haven't been able to supply one just yet. Now as I've been mentioning this week, listener week is coming up in August and I want to know is there a topic or an issue on Woman's Hour that you haven't heard discussed but you

think it should be? Well one of you got in contact last year to suggest the topic of Widow's Fire, the desire for instant gratification after sudden bereavement. It was a memorable listen. Here's a little. I've described it to my friends as being like having my pants on fire. So you feel sort of permanently kind of tingly. Now sometimes it's worse than others, but it's pretty much there all the time. And in the beginning, certainly, it would wake me up at night, I would be getting out of bed first thing in the morning, and I found the only thing that could really get rid of

it was either masturbation or some form of exercise because it makes you very restless. I thought this was some sort of strange side effect. Well, of course it was. But not talked about. But not talked about. And eventually I talked to some of my friends who haven't been bereaved and they said we haven't got a clue and then talked to a couple of people, one a man, one a woman, who said, oh yeah that's the thing, I went through that. And then I started to think, well why doesn't anybody talk about this? Really interesting there. One of the listeners who got in touch, we're so glad you did. Somebody related to that story, just the guilt that they felt had been resolved after listening to it, so perhaps there's something you'd like to share with our audience. That or anything else, you can text

WomansHour84844 on social media it's at BBC woman's hour or you can email us through our website. Message coming in in relation to having babies earlier. I had my sons aged 23 and 25 I wonder if parents have babies later in order to have their 20s to themselves instead my husband and I have had much of our 40s and 50s to ourselves and our very young grandparents with enough energy for toddlers. 8 4, 8 4 4, whatever it is you'd like to get in touch on. Now to a new production of Eugene O'Neill's A Moon for the Misbegotten starring Ruth Wilson, son of the Almeida Theatre in London.

Central character is Josie and she projects strength and independence but has to confront her own vulnerability. There is a humorous and moving father-daughter relationship at the heart of the play, which I mentioned briefly with Fiona Shaw. And I'm joined now by the multi-award-winning director Rebecca Frecknell, who has, yes, you're recognising that name, revived cabaret for a new generation as well. Welcome. Hi, thank you for having me.

Good to have you in. Fun in the green room to have yourself and Fiona Shaw today. It was great, nice having a catch up with her. I was about to say I hope you're cooking up some new production probably. You know, Strike While the Iron's Hot and all that. Absolutely. Josie, our central character with her boots and her overalls. She says, I do my work and I earn my keep and I have a right to be free. Tell me a little bit about Josie and do you think she's actually free? Well, that's the question, isn't it? Josie's an incredible, incredible character, I think.

This play isn't performed that much, but I really think this central role for a woman in the heart of this play is such an amazing challenge and provocation for an actress. And we're so lucky to have Ruth taking that one. She's incredible in the role. But Josie's, she's a complicated soul. She's sort of a product of her upbringing and her circumstance. But she's also at odds with it. And she's sort of trying to kind of wrestle those two things, I think,

through the play. She has an incredible capacity for love and understanding and forgiveness within her, and she sort of has this one night with the two important men in her life that kind of changes her and changes them. And I think it's been amazing working with Ruth to understand her psychology and her complexity and what happens to her over the course of the play. And one of the relationships is with Jim Tyrone, the love interest shall we say, but the other is with her father and we were talking earlier about the

mother-daughter relationship. But what interested you about the father-daughter relationship? I think it's really rare to find a play where one of the central relationships is father-daughter. I just don't, when I first read the play about five, six years ago now, that really struck me. I didn't feel like I'd seen that represented that much on stage or in novels or in movies actually. that much on stage or in novels or in movies actually. I was really close with my father growing up and into my adult life and I lost him about three and a half years ago. And I really sort of saw a lot of us reflected in this relationship but also I think it's just so interesting to see what that parenting dynamic is like. And Josie's lost her mother, her mother died when she was eight years old. So you're also dealing with a relationship that's surrounded by an

unspoken grief that they clearly haven't really spoken about. And it's interesting to see how a woman who has grown up with a father figure and brothers in a male dominated society and a male dominated job have to kind of find her place within that dynamic and and how she has to switch between being in a sister role, in a daughter role, in a mother role, in a wife role and she sort of plays all these archetypes and has to find who she is at the heart of that. But in almost, if this is the correct word, a masculine way. Yeah absolutely well she's had to, she's grown up with and around men and she has created

a persona for herself that allows her to survive in quite a volatile environment actually. And she has sort of, in some ways, in some ways her femininity and her gender and sexuality plays a huge part in that. And in some ways she's really severed that from herself and it's kind of interesting to see how she grapples with that. It is also, I'm on an Irish path this morning between Fiona Shaw, but there is this brutal Irish humour that I thought was nailed so well in the play between Josie and her dad. How did you find that? I mean, obviously Eugene O'Neill has written the play, but it is more in the expression of it on stage. Yeah, I mean, it's such interesting language that he writes with. Like, Eugene O'Neill

is such a muscular writer, and he writes in a way that no one else does, I think. And there's so much toughness and humour within the way that he writes. And a lot of his writing is very autobiographical. And he knew these people and they're based on real people. But I remember talking to David Threlfall, who plays Phil Hogan, her father, who's wonderful. I mean, all your actions were just amazing. I know. We're spoiled. We're spoiled with the three of them, with the vibe. There's also Michael Shannon just for people who are keeping score.

Yeah, and I think David was talking to me about how, you know, it's love shown through insult. Love shown through insult. That's how they've sort of, how they are able to express an emotional vulnerability that they can't access or feel too afraid to access. They sort of do it through spiking at each other the whole time. So it's really interesting to say, you know, to look at what's hidden behind the humor and when the humor comes out and what they're really trying to do to each other, because there's a lot of, there's a lot of deep emotional feeling under the play, but it's about three people that don't know how to express that to one another.

We also have Jim Tyrone, Michael Shannon, as we mentioned there as well. But the portrayal of alcoholism is very gripping and I suppose of Josie trying, kind of realizing the limits of love with an alcoholic. It's interesting that relationship with Jim and what it is and what she wants from it and what he wants from her. And I think, you know, there's lots of different people who take lots of different things, lots of different interpretations away from that. And I should say he is the alcoholic in this relationship. And yeah, he is, and he's based on Eugene O'Neill's brother, based on a real person who really was an alcoholic.

And I think it's really interesting watching her have to work out how to relate to him and him attempting to connect with her. But there's so much in the two of them that's already broken before the night starts. So there's this interesting thing of watching someone almost come to realize who it is she's trying to access. And I think that's what I find so moving about Josie's journey, but also so painful in the play, that it's a play about toxic grief and it's really a piece about people who have not learned to love themselves and therefore find it almost impossible to love someone else, but have that huge human longing. And I think it's really fascinating, I think, watching Josie begin to understand these

people in her life and actually who she is to them and who she could be to them and who they are to her and what she needs from them. Coming back to fathers, and I'm sorry for the loss of your father, it's just a few years ago. It was your father, I understand, who introduced you to the theater and Cabaret in particular. Yeah, well, my dad played the MC when he was a student at his student's union. So when I was about 15 or 16, he showed me a VHS recording of Sam Mendes' production of Cabaret at the Donmar. So it was something that I discovered through him. So it was kind of amazing then when I was approached to direct it, because it was one of those pieces

that had really sort of lived through my childhood. And it was one of my first insights into musical theatre, actually. Did he see it? He died while I was rehearsing it. Oh I'm so sorry. So he saw videos of rehearsals in his hospital bed that I showed him. And I really feel like he was there and he was sort of a part of it and it was a very special production but sadly no he didn't. He didn't get to see it. Because for those who don't know you won an Olivier. All the Olivier winners in our green room today for your revival of Cabaret and that was 2021. Eddie Redmayne, Jesse Buckley. It's still running now in 2025. What did I see, 1,500 performances?

Yes, our 1500th performance on the 7th of July. Just around the corner? Just around the corner, yes. So getting ready for that. How do you understand its endurance? I think multiple things. I think that there's something about the production that really captures an energy that I think has been really revitalizing in that in that space and to a new audience and an audience who aren't necessarily traditional West End theater goers and also, you know the political Resonance of the piece just unfortunately just keeps on being incredibly pertinent. So I think it does this sort of two-pronged experience of something that feels incredibly live and you feel really like present in the piece and with the people performing

the piece, with the people watching the piece, but also it's really talking about the time we're living in and it has a real kind of important message and warning within it. So I think it appeals to a lot of different people. And I think also we have different, you know, as you say, we started with Eddie and Jessie when we first opened, we've had nine or 10 different pairs of Sallys and MCs come through now. So it's always changing and it's always evolving. And if you come back to see it, it won't be the same as you saw it before. And so I think there's a real kind of rewatch factor to it that's exciting. We see different people in these roles and they bring out different facets of

the political nature of the production. And back to Moon for the Misbegotten, just talking about different audiences there for Cabaret, it was packed in the Almeida with a lot of really young people. Yeah, it's been amazing, actually, that I think the Almeida with a lot of really young people. Yeah, it's been amazing actually that I think the Almeida's done an amazing job of really kind of reaching out to a younger generation of theatre makers and also a local generation of theatre makers, local to Islington. And I think it's been amazing for me because I've been at the Almeida seven or eight years now and to watch the change of that audience and to watch the change of that audience for my work as well. And we have kind of amazing schemes to get new audiences and young people in particular into the

theatre. And it was amazing to me on our first preview. It was so mixed, it was so young, and I thought this is so exciting that all these young people are here to see Eugene O'Neill. They've probably never seen this playwright before. And I think that's an exciting thing to be able to keep these plays speaking to and being resonant with a new audience of young people that's really exciting to me. Rebecca Frecknell, thank you very much for coming in. A Moon for the Misbegotten is on in the Almeida Theatre in Islington London as mentioned until the 16th of August. Now we need to move on to cricket. I'm going to read some of your messages though just before I do that. Bella, I'm 42 currently pregnant with my third child. This is on having

kids young or not and feeling very hot and tired in this weather. I'm sure you are. I had my daughter at 36, my son at 38. I'm definitely feeling my age in this pregnancy and concerned about how long I'll be around to provide my children with support as a grandparent if they do decide to have children themselves as I'd love to be able to do this. So I have wondered if around to provide my children with support as a grandparent if they do decide to have children themselves as I'd love to be able to do this. So I have wondered if I would advise my children to have children younger than I have. However I spent my 20s and most of my 30s investing in education and career so I've been able to provide my children with far more than I had growing up and also had more flexibility with my work

to be around them. So I guess it is swings and roundabout. IVF, if you can't afford to take time off work for treatment, how are you planning to support a family financially? That's one question on that other issue we were chatting about. At 34 I've been considering having children for some time but the cost of childcare and the impact on my career worries me. I have a very good salary but I see friends working incredibly hard as two income household and still struggling to afford childcare. Of course one of the I have a very good salary but I see friends working incredibly hard as two income households and still struggling to afford childcare. Of course one of the conversations we often have.

Okay, let's go back to cricket. Saturday marked the start of a busy few weeks for England's women's cricket team. They hosted India for the first of five T20 internationals but luck was not on their side as India thrashed England by 97 runs at Trent Bridge. It was their heaviest ever T20 defeat. So the T20 series, this is a fast paced, shortened format of cricket. It marks the start of what could be an exciting year for the team. They'll be heading to India for the Women's Cricket World Cup.

That's September. Our summer of sport expands. Here to tell us a little bit more about what's to come, as well as what's happening in women's cricket across the country. It's Melissa Storey. She's a commentator for BBC's Test Match Special as well as a cricket player herself. Hi Melissa. Hello. So big loss at the weekend. What do you think went wrong? What do they need before tonight's match? I think the big overarching question of this series against India is how did England respond to pressure and to summarise Saturday's performance not

very well. They looked a little bit flustered and this is coming off the back of a very tumultuous few months for England. They were knocked out of the T20 World Cup back in October in the group stages and they had a devastating 16-0 loss over the winter in the ashes against Australia. And these poor performances, they prompted the change in the leadership group and Hever Knight, the England captain, she stepped away from the role after nine years at the helm. They also dismissed the coach, John Lewis, and then Charlotte Edwards, the new England coach who had a 19-year career for England. She's taken

over. They've got a new captain in that Silver Brunt. England had won every single game against quite a depleted West Indies side earlier this summer, but I think the thing here is that India is a much bigger challenge. They're a higher ranked team and a bigger test of this new look England side ahead of that World Cup you mentioned. Interesting because they're often thought of as favourites previously but I know India of course giants as well when it comes to cricket. They have come England's women's team under some criticism previously about the attitude and the culture within the team after some of those losses

that you have mentioned. The England player Kay Cross said that as well as addressing issues within sport itself, issues around culture needed to be addressed, do you think that's something to overcome? 100% and out of the back of that Ashes series there were a few moments where it felt as if this England team were getting a bit further away from their fans. A comment was made by Alex Hartley, who's a former England player, where she mentioned that some of the England players didn't look fit enough, and England were never going to be able to compete

with Australia, who were the dominant force in women's cricket, if they didn't get fitter. And following those comments, England player Sophie Eccleston, she refused to do an interview with Alex Hartley after the game. And, you know, I think these comments about fitness and criticism is a wake-up call, but it's also a sign of those raised expectations because the professionalization of the women's game,

it's bringing more performance-based scrutiny. And women's cricket has grown dramatically in England and Wales. This is the first year domestically all players have professional contracts in that first tier. And you know these bigger crowds, more games being broadcast live than ever before, with that growth comes a shift in how we talk about the game and how we analyse decisions and tactics and ask questions about form and fitness. So in some ways it's a huge compliment because it means the game has been taken seriously seriously but I do definitely think that Charlotte Edwards and Nat Silverbrunt, they want to reverse the way this England women's team

is being perceived. But with that word fitness, I mean we often think about match fit, what is it specifically that they are saying is not good enough? It's such a hard kind of conversation because I think so many times fitness can be conflated with body image and that creates a really difficult discourse and particularly because female athletes they are facing scrutiny not only on their performance but on their appearance, their weight, their femininity and you know this is criticism which male athletes typically don't get and I think because that fitness critique can be easily either

misinterpreted or misused by those looking to discredit the sport particularly when made publicly there's got to be this fine line between pushing for elite standards but also making sure that this kind of scrutiny isn't damaging and I think particularly for cricket that fitness label underneath it falls also making sure that this kind of scrutiny isn't damaging. And I think particularly for cricket, that fitness label underneath it falls of athleticism. It's fitness standards, it's agility. And that needs to be the focus rather than having

this image of exactly how a professional female athlete needs to look. But when you look at this Australian side, who I mentioned, are the force to beat, they're who England want to be, they have got a much bigger investment in their kind of fitness regimes and professionalism. And is that what it comes down to then, the training regimes, away from the image-based discussions that there can be around fitness, for example, is it that the England team is not training as hard or in the way that they could be?

I think one thing to consider is that England have brought in their professional system domestically a few years behind Australia. So they are playing a bit of a catch-up game. But head coach Charlotte Edwards has recently announced England are going to be introducing minimum fitness standards. So she has clearly identified and with all that international experience behind her that there is an issue to be identified here with England and if they do want to compete and lift those World Cups and win those Ashes series as they did when she was in charge, this is something which probably will need to change for this England side. Okay, well we need to leave it there. Let's watch tonight and see where we go. Thank you so much Melissa Storey, comment, BBC's Test Match Special,

as well as Cricket player herself. I just want to go back to our earlier interview with Becky Kearns, the CEO of Fertility Matters at Work, who are campaigning for those accessing fertility treatment to have a legal right to take time off for their appointments. We did receive a government statement that says we have set out our immediate priorities for reforming employment law in the plan to make work pay which includes supporting those balancing work with treatment. We're strengthening the right to flexible working in our employment rights bill which will make it easier for employees and employers to agree arrangements that support attendance at medical appointments

including those for IVF. Tomorrow Emmy winning actor and star of the new Superman film, actor Rachel Brosnahan will be like to take on the role of Lois Lane. What's that like? Also Jenny Evans, her book Don't Let It Break You Honey, very moving, will also be speaking to her. Thanks for joining me today. Join me again tomorrow if you can, 10am, right here. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, it's Lucy Worsley here and we're back with a brand new series of Lady Swindlers. Here we are in cell number one. I'm just shutting us in, Ross.

Wow! Following in the footsteps of some all new criminals. Can you take me down to the other end of Baker Street, please? Certainly. Jump in. Thank you. Join me and my all-female team of detectives as we revisit the audacious crimes of women trying to make it in a world made for men. This is a story of working class women trying to get by. This is survival.

Lady Swindlers Season 2 with Lucy Worsley from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of elegance. She was the epitome of mystery, intrigue, and beauty. One of the 20th century's most amazing characters, a Hollywood sex symbol whose story you might think you already know. Hedy Lamarr, the film star. But there's another side to her story. She was an inventor at heart.

Her scientific contribution, no other star has been able to match. We really should put her into the limelight she deserves. From the BBC World Service, untold legends, Hedy Lamarr. Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.