Woman's Hour - First female Archbishop of Canterbury, Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara, Polyamory

Episode Date: March 28, 2026

Dame Sarah Mullally is installed as the first female Archbishop of Canterbury in the Church’s 1,400‑year history. What unique skills and priorities will she bring to the role, and what challenges lie ahead for her as she takes on one of the most influential positions in the Anglican Church? Kylie Pentelow explored the questions with Reverend Martine Oborne, chair of WATCH Women and the Church; and Professor Andrew Atherstone, author of a new biography of the Archbishop.Emmy award-winner Elisabeth Moss, best known for Mad Men and The Handmaid’s Tale, and Kate Mara from House of Cards and The Martian joined Kylie in the Woman's Hour studio. Playing best friends – they discussed their new drama series, Imperfect Women.Non-monogamous relationships appear to be having a pop culture moment, with polyamorous couples on our screens and open marriages profiled in numerous books on the topic, alternative relationships appear to be everywhere currently. Molly Roden-Winter, author of the memoir More: A Memoir of Open Marriage, and The Times journalist, Sarah Ditum joined Anita to discuss. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Dianne McGregor

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TisNC. Supply. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to the programme. It's a shorter edition today. Coming up. Polly Amory or Open Relationships. Are you in one? Have you considered being in one?

It seems to be having a cultural moment, so we'll be finding out more. And not one, but two Hollywood actors. Elizabeth Moss from Mad Men and The Handmaid's Tale and Kate Mara from House of Cards. We'll be talking about their new drama series, Imperfect Women. First, this week, Dame Sarah Mullally was officially installed as the new Archbishop of Canterbury. She's the first woman to take the role in the Church of England's nearly 500-year history. She takes the helm during a difficult period for the church, after its former leader, Justin Welby, resigned over a safeguarding scandal. She also won't be recognised by some churches in the Anglican Communion who still believe that the Bible requires a male-only leadership.

So what difference could a woman as the spiritual leader of the church and the Anglican Communion make and what unique skills and priorities will she bring to the role? Ahead of her installation on Wednesday, Kylie spoke to Andrew Atherstone, who has written a biography of the Archbishop and is Professor of Modern Anglicanism at the University of Oxford. But first, Reverend Martine O'Born, chair of watch,

a campaign group that believes men and women should be treated equally in the Church of England. What did she make of the? the fact that there will be some absentees from the ceremony. It's sad, but it's not surprising. We are in this kind of, it's politely called a mixed economy where most people in the Church of England want women and men to be treated equally,

but we can't quite get there, it seems. We still are making provisions for those who want to restrict their roles. So that's the rather awkward situation. that we're trying to live with at the moment. Some people won't allow women to preach or they won't accept having a female bishop or even a male bishop who's ordained a woman and others who don't think that women can properly consecrate the bread and wine.

So there are various things that different churches restrict women on and are allowed to. And it's not that many. Well, it's 600 parishes in the Church of England about 5%. But some of those churches are the biggest churches, both here in London and other major cities, who do say women can't be their vicars, women can only teach other women or children, not men, and things like that. I want to talk a bit about Dame Sarah as a person. And Andrew, you've actually written a biography of her, so perfect person to talk about this.

I was really interesting to – interested to read about – she had a whole life, a whole career, Before she went into the church, she was chief nursing officer at only 37, the youngest ever. So she clearly has this real determination and drive. Where did that come from? I think it partly came from her parents and her grandparents, encouraging her, as she would say, believe anything is possible, follow her dreams when she was a child and a teenager. Sarah speaks quite often of the influence of her grandma, Grandma Emily Bowser, who is a confident woman and lived quite close to them when she was a teenager in Woking, bombed out in the Blitz,

quite a leader and passionate herself. And she encouraged Sarah and her sisters to get involved to be ambitious, take opportunities. And certainly Sarah has done that. As you say, she's fitted enough for two lives just into one life. Chief Nursing Officer, that means part of the civil service in Whitehall, with an office not far from 10 Downing Streets, helping government policy to do with health policy around the country, and then in middle age, following this sense of call into ordination, and now rising to the Church of England and its height. So remarkable life story, all packed into one.

You've met her on numerous occasions, Martin. You're a vicar in London, so she's been your bishop for the past eight years. What's she like? And what kind of first impressions did she make on you? Yeah, right from the beginning, the first time I met her, I found her a very attentive person. She's very wise, but also very direct in how she speaks and communicates with you. I'd say she's very kind and very polite, but she's also not afraid to say what she thinks. I read a quote in the church times from her installation as Bishop of London back in 2018. She told the congregation then, let me reassure you, I do not come carrying bombs or perhaps literal ones anyway, but I am aware that as the first woman, Bishop of London, I am necessarily subversely.

and it's a necessity I intend to embrace. Was she? Yeah, she was. And she is, I mean, just by the fact of being a woman, I mean, she will be subversive as the Archbishop of Canterbury. She did a fantastic job as Bishop of London, but London is a very challenging diocese, very challenging area.

One in five churches in London limit women's roles in somewhere or another. And so she had to hold all that. together and there will have been quite a lot of nasty banter, sidelining. She showed a huge steely resilience, I would say, in putting up with that, maybe too much. I mean, really, I think it must have been very difficult at times, but she has that experience and I'm sure that will serve her well in this new post and role. I should add the reference to bombs there in that quote was because 150 years ago that week, suffragettes are placed a bomb under the seat in which she'd just been enthroned as the first woman to be Bishop of London. So does that mean,

Martin, she has a bit of a sense of humour then? Yeah, I think she has a sense of humour. I think her priorities are within the church to be collaborative to focus on unity. But she very much wants to look beyond that and to be a compassionate presence, a healing presence for the nation. We need to talk about the challenges that she'll face because, of course, the Church of England has had a very public tumultuous few years. Some suggesting it's lost its way. So what do you see will be the first challenges, the first things that are in her intray? Certainly to bring people around the table. Sarah, in her former years, is very good at building bridges.

She's very good at building friendships, even with critics and those who see things very differently in terms of the future of the church. But the Church of England's had a very rocky ride and terrible press in recent years, leading to, of course, the resignation of Sarah's predecessor. Questions over safeguarding will be very high on her agenda and improving processes there. Questions over funding as well of the church and where its resources are spread around the country. That's always a very controversial question. Of course, she's been in London, but she also has experience as a bishop down in Devon. in rural communities. So she's used to the diversity of the Church of England and trying to ensure the growth of the church and the public witness of the church in a hopeful way in all those places.

Compassion and hope, those are two of her favourite words that she frequently drives home. Martine, there will be many of our listeners out there who aren't involved in the church in any way or maybe of another faith or no faith. Is this a significant moment for them, do you think? Yeah, I mean, the Church of England is the established church. It is the spiritual voice of the nation. I'm hoping very much that we will see something different with this new female Archbishop of Canterbury. She has a reputation, as Andrew says, for holding things together and being a bringer together of people with different views, etc. And I think that's obviously one of the reasons why she's been selected for this role.

But she is also courageous. And I hope that she will, frankly, turn over a few tables, as Jesus famously did in the temple. Because it's a kind of phony leadership if you are supporting opposing directions. You really get nowhere. And we've kind of been in this sort of limbo land for a long time. And really, unity ultimately comes from good leadership, which is prayerful and listen. to different opinions, but then helps people come to a view and move in a particular direction. So one of the things and things obviously that Watch cares about very much is equality for women in the church.

And there's work to be done there because, as I said, lots of people want to see women and men treated equally in the church. But there is this, frankly, misogyny in a lot of sexism in the church. And, of course, the institutional discrimination that's allowed. And really, we're not actually recognising that. So we can't really do anything about it. And I think that she will do that in her own way, almost certainly not in the way that I might do it. But that's good news.

And I hope you'll make a difference for women in the church and women generally will feel encouraged, inspired and hopeful by her leadership. The Reverend Martine O'Born and Andrew Atherstone speaking about the new Archbishop of Canterbury Dame Sarah Malalley on Wednesday's programme. Still to come on the program, we discuss Polly Amory. And remember, you can enjoy Woman's Hour any hour of the day if you can't join us live at 10 a.m. during the week.

All you need to do is subscribe to the daily podcast. It's free via BBC Sounds. Now, Golden Globe and Emmy Award-winning Elizabeth Moss, best known for Mad Men and The Handmaid's Tale, and Kate Mara from House of Cards and The Martian, joined Kylie in the studio this week. They're both starring alongside Kerry Washington in a new drama, Imperfect Women.

that's just started on Apple TV. It's based on Araminta Hall's novel of the same name. They play three best friends, and the series examines a crime that shatters their lives and friendships. Kylie started by asking Kate about the storyline. One of the three friends, my character, Nancy, has been killed, and everyone's trying to figure out what happened to Nancy,

and it follows the three different women's perspectives of what happened, what happened in their lives, what happened in their friendships, and then ultimately what happened that night. So there's lots of twists and turns. When I first read the book, my ideas of what happened to Nancy kept changing with each chapter, with each woman's perspective. And I think for sure the show also gives that feeling for the audience as well. So tell us about Nancy then, and was she good to play?

Yeah, the role was really, really fun to play. Nancy is from the outside is very much. living this ideal life. She's in this, like, gorgeous house. She's married into a very rich family. She has a daughter. It looks from the outside, like her life is very much fulfilled. And, you know, as the show goes on,

you sort of get to learn about what her past was and why she's running from it. It is really interesting that you say that, that each episode, my direction of where I was thinking, particularly about each character was changing. Elizabeth, you play Mary. Her life is very, very different, isn't it? And they've been friends for 25 years.

But isn't it interesting how their lives have gone these different ways? Yeah, I think it's very true to life. And that part's probably the most relatable part. I hope that none of the other parts are relatable to you and your friends or anyone's friends. But that is the thing that I think I related to very much. I have three best friends. And one of them actually lives here in the UK. And your lives go in different directions.

and hopefully you stay in touch and usually if they're your best friend you do but sometimes you don't even talk every day and sometimes you know you end up doing different things than when you were 20 if it really is a true best friend you know how it is you can not have seen them for months and then it just pick up right where you left off and it's beautiful and these three friends have that but mary's life yes ends up being very different from nancies and eleanor's and more of a homemaker a mom a wife and that's her job. It's everything and taking care of her family is everything. And I have a lot of admiration for that. I think that's just the hardest job in the world. You've recently had a child. Yes. And I, she has three. So, yeah. So and Carrie has three as well. So it's, it's something that I have so much admiration for how hard, not just moms, but dads too. Did you manage to have lots of time to work on that chemistry between the three of you before you started filming? We have had much more time now to work on it, right? We've seen the most of each other probably, like, promoting this show. We know each other so much better now because of the press tour. It's been awesome.

Because when we were working on the show, obviously the hours are pretty insane, and then everyone wants to rush home to be with their families. So there was no time. We were just really lucky. We had really instant natural chemistry that you just, you either have it or you don't. We know, you follow someone's career. and, you know, I watched Kate for years, watched Carrie for years, and also, like, observed from afar how they handle their personal lives.

You know, I know her husband. Like, it's, you know, you get an idea of a person's priorities. And so it wasn't too much of a leap to think, oh, I'm going to get along with this person. I knew we were like-minded in some ways. So, and same with Carrie. That's an interesting one in terms of looking at personal lives, because I wonder, you know, living your lives in the way that you do, How do you manage that making sure that you do have that personal life?

Well, honestly, part of us I didn't know a lot about their personal lives. And that is where I come from as well. Attractive. Yeah, that's right. Exactly. But they don't broadcast that whole side of their life. Exactly. That's what I mean. Yeah, where it's like I actually, even though I knew Jamie a little bit, like I didn't know, you know, all the kids' names and ages.

And, you know, it was. And same with Carrie. Like, and that to me is sort of how I choose to be as well and will be in the future with my child. So I think that's what I mean. Like you see how somebody conducts their professional and personal life. And I knew like, okay, yeah, I admire that. I can, you know, that's somebody I would be friends with. Is that important to you, Kate, to keep that personal life very personal?

Well, I think it's definitely important. It's also so much more difficult now than ever before because of social media and all that stuff. But yeah, I think it's important. It's also really useful as an actor. If people don't know anything about your personal life, it's much easier for an audience. to get lost in whatever character you're playing, you know? So we're very similar that way. Yeah.

In that thinking, yeah, for sure. Can I go right back, Elizabeth, to the West Wing? Yes, you may. Which I love. I mean, I still think it's probably the best political drama ever made. It's so good. I can say that it is, and I think so too, because I'm not very responsible for that show. You know, I'm not putting myself on the back at all.

I was a reoccurring character. It had nothing to do with it. So I agree. What was it like being part of that? It was such a gift, honestly. I was 17 to 23 when I did it. I literally did my last episode on West Wing at the beginning of April and shot the Mad Men pilot at the end of April. Oh, wow.

That's so cool. I'm very, very fortunate. That is where I learned how to be on set. That is where I learned how you're supposed to behave, how you're supposed to treat other people, how you're supposed to collaborate with the crew. Martin Sheen would literally treat the gentleman who was holding the door open for him, like the background actor who was there. He would treat him exactly the same way as he would treat the other lead actor in the scene or the director or John Wells, the producer. I was like, that's how you're supposed to be.

So it was an incredible learning experience. You of course played June Osborne known as Offred in Handmaid's Tale, dramatized from Margaret Atwood's novel. Many of our listeners will have, of course, seen you in that, read that book. what was it like portraying her because that is a full-on role to play? Yeah. Again, it was a very life-changing experience personally and professionally for me. Nine years spent during that.

And I learned how to be a producer. I learned how to be a director. I really learned how to lead a show. It was my first time being number one on the call sheet. So it was really a big life-changing experience as well. I find her very inspiring. I find her just so cool and strong and complicated. and I've always been kind of inspired by June.

So again, just a gift to get to portray somebody who's, you know, I look up to. And Kate, you played Zoe Barnes in House of Cards. What did you learn from that role? Well, it was a really fulfilling experience, mostly because David Fincher started off that show directing it. And so getting to work with him was like just a dream. He's just very unique in the way he works and very demanding and all of those things, but so fulfilling. I mean, that puts streaming on the map too. We've never talked about this.

But I remember at the time, that was like the pinnacle. House of Cards was like what we all on television looked up to. There'd be no, I think, quality of streaming without that show and what it did. Elizabeth Moss and Kate Mara speaking to come. Can healthcare really be reinvented? And if so, what does that look? look like in practice. I'm Tejah Sassai, special host of Resilion Edge, a business vitality podcast, paid and presented by Deloie. In this episode, I talked to leaders reshaping what healthcare can be.

Ratnakur Lavu and Elvance Health are keeping the consumer at the center of everything they do. We're really focused on three things. One is simplified personal member experiences. And the second thing is we want to empower the providers to drive the right health outcomes. The third thing is we want to simplify work for ourselves so that we can better serve our customers and members. It's about designing systems that work for the consumer, systems that listen, learn, and build trust. We want them to be able to understand their benefits,

find the right care, and then eventually we want to be able to schedule that. And this is where we are really excited about the partnership between Deloitte and AWS to bring some of these experiences to life. So how do you start, especially if you're dealing with legacy overload? The full conversation unpacks how Deloitte, AWS, and Elevance Health are redesigning healthcare from the inside out, creating systems that work smarter, scale faster, and bring the human experience back to the forefront. All of that and more on the special episode of Resilient Edge.

Find us wherever you listen to podcasts. Now, Polly Amory and Open Marriage is seemingly having a bit of a pop culture moment. The feminist writer Lindy West's second memoir called Adult Braces has sparked a conversation online, as in it, Lindy enters into a polyamorous relationship seemingly at the behest of her husband after he says their marriage is contingent on her agreeing to this. In the blockbuster novel of 2024, all fours, the perimenopausal protagonist opens her marriage following a period of self-discovery. And there's Lily Allen's latest album, West End Girl, in which her lyrics chronicle, a marital breakdown and an uneven, reluctant open relationship.

These examples follow a stream of books and TV series featuring polyamorous relationships. There are even polyamorous dating apps which allow users to specifically filter for non-monogamous relationship styles. Well, I spoke to Sarah Dytum, a writer for The Times and Unheard, who was written on the subject. But first, the author Molly Rodham Winter, who's written the book, More, a memoir of open marriage, based on her own experience. I'm married and polyamorous. I think it gives me a little street cred that We've now been married for 26 years and open for the last 18 years. I also felt like I was in a unique position to write about my situation because my parents have an open marriage. And I didn't know about that as a child.

I found out after I was married. But it felt important to me to lend a little gravitas to it as a lifestyle because I think it can sometimes seem as though it's very much on the fringes as opposed to just. people next door. So many questions. We're going to come back to you, but before we do, let's bring Sarah in. Because Sarah, in one of your pieces, because you have written about this, you call it the cult of non-monogamy. What do you mean? I think as with any kind of lifestyle, any kind of special interest, there's a tendency for kind of cult-like behaviours to grow around it and for sets of expectations to solidify

and for people to become very kind of policing about right and wrong ways to do it. things I really appreciated about Molly's memoir is she writes a lot about making mistakes and kind of figuring things out between her and her husband sort of on their own terms. But there is a, and I think you see this in the Lindy West story quite strongly, actually, this idea that in order to be especially a good progressive person, you have to embrace the ideals of polyamory and of non-monogamy. And that comes with a whole sort of expectation. And that comes with a whole sort of expectations that can often weigh really heavily on a less enthusiastic partner who might be doing it to sort of please the other half of the relationship and it's kind of contorting themselves

into uncomfortable situations because they're ultimately afraid of being left on their own. It might be a cliche, but do you think this is often the case that it's the husband, Sarah, wants to open up the relationship? Is that what you're getting at? Well, there is a cliche which, alas, if you spend a lot of time reading, problem pages or reading posts on relationship boards. There is this cliche of the man who thinks there's a kind of, the man in a heterosexual marriage who thinks there's a sort of sexual smorgas board out there that he's been denied somehow. He persuades his wife to open their relationship. They're both on the dating apps and six months later, she has had a dozen hookups and he has not

been able to make a single coffee date because that is the basic rules of the sexual economy, is the men are more willing to take risks. So if women put themselves out there, they are going to have many, many more offers than they're really even able to respond to. Whereas when men put themselves out there, they often find that they are doing all the running. It's very hard work to meet people.

And there's quite a pleasing irony sometimes in reading these stories of men who thought they were going to have all the incredible sex in the world, realizing that they're actually just going to watch their wife go on fun dates without them. So many things have opened up here You and your husband have been together, as you mentioned, 26 years.

18 of those have been open. How did this idea come about? Well, that's partly why I needed to write a book because it was complicated. And some people will read my book and say it was my husband. And it's interesting because I think it's a narrative that appeals to people to say that the husband is forcing the wife into it. I actually met someone first and I was interested in them. But my husband had told me before we got married that if I wanted to sleep, with someone else, that was all right with him as long as I told him. And so I think one really

interesting thing about non-monogamy is we make it such a kind of deviant choice when in actuality it's really about honest communication. People cheat on each other in a monogamous relationship all the time. Some estimates are more than 50% of monogamous relationships involve infidelity. It's always kind of fascinating to me how demonized sometimes non-monogamy gets because it puts honest communication at the center. And sometimes we don't see all the dirty laundry aired all the time in monogamous relationships. There were times when I was interested in closing the marriage and we went to marriage counseling. But 18 years later, I'm quite happily polyamorous and it's not under duress. When you say you wanted to close the marriage, tell us what happened. Yeah, well, there were times when

early on when I broke up with someone. My husband did not have the experience that Sarah's describing. He's a really good guy. He's a really fun, wonderful person. And so when women date him, they want to keep dating him. So he's had very few people break up with him. I, on the other hand, dating men early on sometimes had relationships that went south that were making me unhappy. And so there were times when I wasn't dating anyone and my husband was dating people and then I wanted to close the marriage. But we worked through it to the point that we both really want to give each other freedom and we wanted to open ourselves up to other loving relationships. So at this point now, I have one relationship that's been for five years and one for one year and I'm very happy in our

relationship and our structure. Molly, can I ask you some really basic questions that I'm sure people have asked you loads? Sure, sure. So I've got a list. One word. First of all, jealousy. How do you deal with jealousy? Jealousy is a tough one. And my feeling about it is that it really masks some things that are going on inside yourself. And so if you're feeling insecure, you're going to be jealous. The beautiful part about non-monogamy is, or ethical non-monogamy, is that you talk about it and you discuss it. And I have done so much growing because of the conversations and the discussions we've had around jealousy. What do you mean ethical non-monogamy? Maybe it's just a buzzword in the States, but it's another way of talking about open marriage. So as opposed to unethical non-monogamy, where you're

cheating or you're not being honest with your partners. The idea of ethical non-monogamy is that there's honest communication at the base. And I did not always practice that. I'm very honest about that in the book. I was not always ethical in my practice, but much more so now. What happens if you fall in love? Now that's the only way I'm going to be in a relationship with someone is to be in love. Another interesting thing that we think that love is so finite. If we were to say you can only have one child because it's impossible to love a second child, the world would be up in arms. But we say that about partners as if romantic love is somehow different.

So in my experience, love begets love and I love all three of my partners and it's very enriching to life. Sarah, it's hardly a new thing, is it? Well, right, there is a very extremely long tradition of people experimenting with quote unquote non-traditional relationship structures. And even before this sexual revolution, you would find And in various social classes, widespread acceptance of men having mistresses or men paying for sex outside of a relationship in certain situations.

It's not as if we are inventing this idea of the non-monogamous marriage wholesale from raw cloth. Monogamous marriage is making a lifelong commitment to have one romantic, one financial, one domestic and one sexual relationship or with the same person. can be pretty hard for a lot of people. And I think there is an understandable attraction to the idea that you could mediate that or that you could give yourself space to explore other relationships or other ways of, like, knowing yourself outside of that one main relationship.

So yeah, it's not new, but then humans are always going to be humans. So why wouldn't we keep going back to the same ideas? I want to know a bit more about the rules between you and your husband. And what about things around sexual health? Like how do you make sure that you are protected and safe? Our rules at the beginning were all designed to prevent falling in love with someone else. We didn't want any intimacy. No dates with someone you worked with.

We still do that. But, you know, no two dates in one week, no sleepovers, all so that we wouldn't fall in love. But our current rule is just to support each other in whatever comes up. So we give each other pretty wide freedom with the understanding. that our commitment is to one another ultimately. And so if something is difficult for me emotionally, my husband has to talk about it. We get tested for STDs.

I have had the same two partners, as I said, for a long time. I've never gotten an STI in all my 18 years of being in an open relationship. So I think I must be doing something right in terms of safety. And I wonder what the marriage gives you then. We have children together. We live together. So everything Sarah described about what a marriage is. We are monogamous. Non-monogamy is kind of the wrong word because monogamy means

married to one person. We're not polygamous. I have one husband. We share a home. We share a family and we share our finances and we're always there for each other. So marriage is still marriage to me and my other relationships are very deep, loving, wonderful friendships that include sexual exploration. Fascinating stuff. Molly Rodham Winter. And Sarah Ditum. That's all from me. I did tell you it was going to be short and sweet. On Monday, Kruper Paddy will be joined by the lead actor, Chavon Cullen, of a new BBC drama series that explores a couple navigating the heartbreak of pregnancy loss. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time.

Hi there, I'm Izzy Judd, and I'm so pleased to be back with the Music and Meditation Podcast Series 6. We'll be talking about everything from reframing anxiety to getting a good night's sleep. So if you need to find some moments of calm in your day, subscribe to the music and meditation podcast on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just, a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now, wherever you get your podcasts.