Woman's Hour - First female Archbishop of Canterbury, Schiaparelli exhibition, Swiftynomics

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Today marks a historic moment for the Church of England as Dame Sarah Mullally is installed as the first female Archbishop of Canterbury in the Church’s 1,400‑year history. What unique skills and priorities will she bring to the role, and what challenges lie ahead for her as she takes on one of the most influential positions in the Anglican Church? Joining Kylie Pentelow to explore these questions are the Bishop of Gloucester, Rachel Treweek; the Reverend Martine Oborne, chair of WATCH Women and the Church; and Professor Andrew Atherstone, author of a new biography of the Archbishop.A campaign backed by charities, MPs and peers is urging for more checks on pornography websites to protect children and vulnerable people. It’s looking to change the law to get websites to verify the age of people appearing in the content that’s published, and to guarantee that their consent has been given. To discuss the proposals, Kylie is joined by Baroness Bertin, author of an independent review into the regulation of online pornography, and Naomi Miles, founder of the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation charity.The revolutionary Italian designer Elsa Schiaparelli is being celebrated in a dazzling new exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. Sonnet Stanfill, Senior Curator of Fashion at the V&A and curator of Schiaparelli: Fashion Becomes Art and fashion historian, Justine Picardie, author of Fashioning the Crown, discuss her life and work.What can Taylor Swift teach us about the economy? Associate Professor at the University of Kansas, Misty Heggeness, explains how her concept of Swiftynomics shines a light on the true value of women’s work and influence.Presenter: Kylie Pentelow Producer: Emma Pearce

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. And while you're here, I wanted to let you know that the Woman's Hour Guide to Life is back. You might have listened to some of the episodes from the first series, including ambition without burnout, or turning aging into your superpower.

Well, we've got six new episodes. for you over the coming weeks that will give you practical tips on issues like self-promotion without feeling awkward, caring for aging parents, navigating infertility with family and friends, and also how to love your face, whatever your age. I'm really excited about this series of The Woman's Hour Guide to Life, so I really hope you'll join us. You will find the episodes in the Woman's Hour podcast feed on Sundays. It's only on BBC Sounds. But now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Hello and welcome to the programme.

Today we'll see the enthronement of Dame Sarah Mullali, the very first female Archbishop of Canterbury in its more than a thousand-year history. We'll be looking at what this means for the church and finding out how there'll be some in the Anglican Communion who won't be attending her instalment later today as they don't recognise her appointment. And we'd like to hear from you on this. What are your thoughts about Dame Sarah taking up the role?

Maybe you have personal experience of her time in the church, or indeed before, when she worked in nursing. Or more broadly, what does it mean to you that the Church of England is promoting a woman in this way? You can text the programme. The number is 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website too. Or if you want to send us a WhatsApp message or a voice note, you can use the number 037100-100444. Also coming up, the new campaign by charities and MPs, urging for more checks on pornography websites to protect children and vulnerable people. We'll also be hearing about a new exhibition at the VNAs celebrating the fashion of Elsa Scaparelli, a surrealist designer whose creations have been described as not just pretty but witty. Plus, Taylor Swift is known for selling out stadiums and generating billions in revenue, of course.

but I'll be speaking to an economist who believes she's reshaping how women influence and contribute to society at large. But first, later today, the first female Archbishop of Canterbury in the Church of England will be installed. The ceremony this afternoon is the symbolic start of Dame Sarah Malali's ministry, following a rather lengthy process in which she was first named in the role last October and confirmed in her election in January at a St Paul's Cathedral ceremony. Well, as the 106th person in this role, Dame Sarah takes the helm during a difficult period for the church, after its former leader, Justin Welby, resigned over a safeguarding scandal. She also won't be recognised by some churches in the Anglican Communion,

who still believe that the Bible requires a male-only leadership. Well, earlier she spoke to BBC's Paddy O'Connell ahead of the ceremony. Whilst I sort of try and get my head around being the Archbishop, I recognise. the significance of being the first female archbishop. But I am also aware of the women that have supported me in my ministry and also the men as well. And part of the installation service will have women's voices right the way through it. So there's something about celebrating women, but also being able to say to other people, in a sense, it's entirely possible for you to follow your dreams of what you want to do. So what difference could a woman?

as the spiritual leader of the church and the Anglican communion make. And what unique skills and priorities even will she bring to the role? Well, to discuss all this, I'm joined by Reverend Martin O'Born, chair of Watch, which is a campaign group that believes that men and women should be treated equally in the Church of England. And also joining us, and already in Canterbury is Andrew Atherston, who recently published a biography of the Archbishop and is Professor of Modern Anglicanism. at the University of Oxford. Thanks so much to both of you for joining me this morning.

Reverend Martin, can I start with you? What is it like for you to see a woman in this role? It is only 11 years since the first female bishop. Libby Lane was consecrated in 2015. Then as the Bishop of Stockport, this must be a momentous day for you. Yes, indeed. It's very momentous. It's wonderful.

And I'm delighted to see this enthronement today. does actually make me think of many, many years ago when I was at school and a teacher asked us what we wanted to do when we grew up and I said, well, I want to be a vicar. And the class thought that was hilarious. And then the teacher said, oh, but Martin, you can't be a vicar because they don't have women vickers. And that class thought that was even more funny.

So after that embarrassment, I went away and did other things. but then like 40 odd years later, I did actually become a vicar. So miracles too happen. So for me and for perhaps especially for other women who've either had their vocations quashed or delayed, it's fabulous to see after 14 centuries, I think it is, of male Archbishop of Canterbury to have a female Archbishop Canterbury, long overdue and wonderful. Andrew, what about for you? Did you expect to see a female archbishop installed?

I thought it was very likely, yes. I didn't think it would be this one. So the process, of course, for choosing the next archbishop is always shrouded in secrecy. But many were saying that it would be a woman archbishop, perhaps Bishop Gulli, Francis de Kani of Chelmsford, who has a very high profile in the church and the nation and a very interesting backstory herself. So no surprise that it's a woman this time, but something of surprise that it is Dame Sarah. So what did you think then when they went with her? Well, eventually you think, yes, I can see that's the obvious choice because she has so many of the gifts and the competences and the experiences that will make her excellent at the role. It's a day of celebration. I'm here in Canterbury already this morning. There's a buzz about the town.

There's going to be 2,000 people gathered in the cathedral. And the whole choreography of the service will be amplifying women's voices. There's going to be African female bishops processing in. There will be music from Julian of Norwich, a famous female theologian back in the Middle Ages. And of course, today is the 25th of March. It's the feast of the enunciation. This is the day Christians worldwide remember the Virgin Mary saying yes to the call of God. So there's lots of high symbolism about this day.

Andrew, has the response to her appointment settled down more? We were talking about the fact that there are some who have chosen to boycott the installation today. Indeed, there will be about 10 of the 42 provinces around the Anglican Communion not represented today. That's perhaps not so much because of Archbishop Sarah herself, but more because of the four to-year. but more because of their views of the Church of England as a church and some of the decisions the Church of England has taken recently. So there will be absentees from Africa and Southeast Asia and South America. But there will also be the African six who will be part of the service. These are the first six women ever to be Anglican bishops in Africa. Very striking. Angola,

Kenya, South Sudan, Lesotho, Esritini, former Swaziland. So it's a mixed picture. Yes, there will be some absentees, but there'll be many there also celebrating. Reverend Martin, what do you make of the fact that some people are choosing not to attend? Well, it's sad, but it's not surprising. We are in this kind of, it's politely called a mixed economy where we, most people, in the Church of England want women and men to be treated equally, but we can't quite get there, it seems.

We still are making provisions for those who want to restrict their roles. And so that's the rather awkward situation that we're trying to live with at the moment, where people, some people won't allow women to preach, or they won't accept having a female bishop or even a male bishop who's ordained a woman and others who don't think that women can properly consecrate the bread and wine. So there are various things that different churches restrict women on and are allowed to. And it's not that many.

In fact, it's only, well, it's 600 parishes in the Church of England about 5%. but some of those churches are the biggest churches, both here in London and other major cities who do say women can't be their vicarers, women can only teach other women or children, not men, and things like that. I want to talk a bit about Dame Sarah as a person and Andrew, you've actually written a biography of her, so perfect person to talk about this.

I was really interesting to, interested to read about she had a whole life, a whole career before she went into the church. She was chief nursing officer at only 37, the youngest ever. So she clearly has this real determination and drive. Where did that come from? I think it partly came from her parents and her grandparents, encouraging her to, as she would say, believe in anything is possible, follow her dreams when she was a child and a teenager. Sarah speaks quite often of the influence of her grandma, Emily Bowser, who is a confident woman and lived quite close to them when she was a teenager in Woking, bombed out in the Blitz, quite a leader and passionate

herself. And she encouraged Sarah and her sisters to get involved, to be ambitious, to take opportunities. And certainly Sarah has done that. As you say, she's fitted enough for two lives just into one life. Chief Nursing Officer, that means part of the civil service in Whitehall, with an office not far from 10 Downing Streets, helping government policy to do with health policy around the country. And then in middle age, following this sense of call into ordination and now rising to the Church of England and its height.

So remarkable life story, all packed into one. You've met her on numerous occasions, Martin. You're a vicar in London, so she's been your bishop for the past eight years. What's she like? And what kind of first impressions did she make on you? Yeah, right from the beginning, the first time I met her, I found her a very attentive person. She's very wise, but also very direct in how she speaks and communicates with you.

I'd say she's very kind and very polite, but she's also not afraid to say what she thinks. I read a quote in the church times from her installation as Bishop of London back in 2018. She told the congregation then, let me reassure you, I do not come carrying bombs or perhaps literal ones anyway, but I am aware that as the first woman, Bishop of London, I am necessarily subversive, and it's a necessity I intend to embrace. Was she? Yeah, she was. I mean, and she is, I mean, just by the fact of being a woman, I mean, she will be subversive as the Archbishop of Canterbury.

I mean, we've just talked about the people who are not turning up, some of them, because she's female. So, well, London, she did a fantastic job as Bishop of London, but London is a very challenging diocese, very challenging area. I mean, one in five churches in London limit women's roles in somewhere or another. And so she had to hold all that together. And there will have been quite a lot of nasty banter, sideline. She showed a huge steely resilience, I would say, in putting up with that, maybe too much.

I mean, really, I think it must have been very difficult at times. but she has that experience and I'm sure that will serve her well in this new post and role. I should add the reference to bombs there in that quote was because 150 years ago that week, suffragettes are placed a bomb under the seat in which she'd just been enthroned as the first woman to be Bishop of London. So does that mean, Martin, she has a bit of a sense of humour then?

Yeah, I think she has a sense of humour. Yeah, she's a, I mean, I think her priorities are to, within the church to be collaborative to focus on unity. But she very much wants to look beyond that and to be a compassionate presence, a healing presence for the nation. So, yeah, she's a warm person. And yeah, she has a good sense of humour.

Andrew, we need to talk about the challenges that she'll face because, of course, the Church of England has had a very public tumultuous few years, some suggesting it's lost its way. So what do you see will be the first challenges, the first things that are in her intray? Certainly to bring people around the table. Sarah in her former years is very good at building bridges. She's very good at building friendships, even with critics and those who see things very differently in terms of the future of the church. But the Church of England's had a very rocky ride and terrible press in recent years, leading to, of course, the resignation of

Sarah's predecessor. So questions over safeguarding will be very high on her agenda and improving processes there. Questions over funding as well of the church and where its resources are spread around the country. That's always a very controversial question. Of course, she's been in London, of international reputation and significant size. But she also has experience as a bishop down in Devon in rural communities and tiny people parishes. Often in villages where the pub has disappeared and the shop has gone and the primary school has closed down, but the church remains still as a beacon of hope, Archbishop Sarah says, in those places. So she's used to the diversity of the Church of England and trying to ensure,

the growth of the church and the public witness of the church in a hopeful way in all those places. Compassion and hope. Compassion and hope. Those are two of her favourite words that she frequently drives home. Martine, there will be many of our listeners out there today who aren't involved in the church in any way, or maybe of another faith or no faith. Is this a significant moment for them, do you think? Yeah, I think it is, I mean, the Church of England is the established church, it is the spiritual voice of the nation. And I'm hoping very much that we will see something different with this new female Archbishop of Canterbury. She has a reputation, as Andrew says, for holding things together. and being a bring her together of people with different views, etc.

And I think that's obviously one of the reasons why she's been selected for this role. But she is also courageous. And I hope that she will, frankly, turn over a few tables, as Jesus famously did in the temple. Because it's a kind of phony leadership if you are supporting opposing directions. You really get nowhere. And we've kind of been in this sort of limbo land for a long time. And really unity ultimately comes from good leadership, which is prayerful and listens to different opinions, but then, you know, helps people come to a view and move in a particular direction.

So one of the things and things obviously that Watch cares about very much is equality for women in the church. and there's work to be done there because, you know, as I said, lots of people want to see women and men treated equally in the church but there is this, frankly, misogyny in which a lot of sexism in the church and, of course, the institutional discrimination that's allowed.

And really, we're not even recognising that. We're not actually recognising that. So we can't really do anything about it. And I think that she will do that. in her own way, almost certainly not on the way that I might do it, but that's good news. And I hope you'll make a difference for women in the church and women generally will feel encouraged, inspired and hopeful by her leadership. Reverend Martin O'Born and Andrew Atherston, thank you so much for speaking to me today.

We've had lots of comments actually on this already. This one here says, I'm ordained in the Church of England. I was two when the first women were ordained in the Church of England in 1994. and so have no memory of all male clergy. Even so, when Archbishop Sarah was announced in October, I was very emotional and actually cried. I couldn't believe that it was a woman this time round. I didn't think the church would be as brave so soon.

Today is a day of celebration. You cannot be what you can't see, and any women and girls who see her now will know that their place can be at Lambeth. I pray for Archbishop Sarah and her ministry daily and we'll be raising a glass to her this evening. What a lovely comment. Thank you so much for getting in touch.

And I should just say that you can watch Dame Sarah Malawi's installation as Archbishop of Canterbury. It's live on BBC 1 today from 2pm with Paddy O'Connell presenting. And Andrew Atherston's biography, you hear from there, Archbishop Sarah Malawi, is available now. Now, a campaign backed by charities, MPs and peers is urging for more checks on pornography websites to protect children and vulnerable people. You might remember the independent review on regulating online pornography,

which was led by Baroness Gabby Burton, and came out just over a year ago. We covered it on this programme. Baroness Burton made over 30 recommendations on how to address the harmful impacts of the porn industry. Now she's proposing to change the law to get websites to verify the age of people appearing in the contest, and to guarantee that they've given their consent. This is part of an amendment to the Crime and Policing Bill, which is in its final stages in Parliament.

It's being scrutinized in the House of Lords today, in fact. Well, I'm delighted to say that I'm joined by Baroness Gabby Burton, a Conservative Party peer and Naomi Miles, who is the founder of the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation Charity, which is known as cease, and she has been involved in the campaign. Good morning to you both, and welcome to the program. Good morning.

Gabby, can I start with you? Can you tell us about your proposal then on agent consent verification checks? Yes, absolutely. It's very simple. We believe, and there is a huge amount of support for this cross-party support, that there should be a duty on all sites,

on all platforms that show pornographic content, that they have checked for consent of the performers, and that they have checked that those performers are over-eastern. and that they give that right also to withdraw that consent if actually after the event it's seen that they were coerced into it or there was some kind of abuse or the you know the filming actually involves something that they had not consented to.

And for too long there's been no regulation. It's been far too light touch and that has to end. Are there safeguards currently in place on porn sites at all? There are no legal duties on any porn sites to verify age and consent. And some porn sites say that they do that. But I think there does need to be a much more proactive auditing and spot checking. And verification from an independent regulator. We can't, I'm afraid, take porn sites word for it.

So I think some sites do make efforts to do this. That's certainly true. But, you know, the era of self-regulation, like touch regulation, just has to end. Naomi, it might be useful for you to explain to our listeners what some of the circumstances are of women who appear in these videos. Yes, thank you so much. Well, we know that this amendment is desperately needed because mainstream porn sites are awash with all sorts of illegal, non-consensual content. That's partly because of the way these sites are set up in the first place. So some of the content is studio produced.

A lot of it is a user-generated. So anyone can upload virtually anything directly onto the platform. That means it could be leaked setter tapes, recordings of rape and sexual abuse, deep fakes, spy camporn, you name it. Historically at least, have been very, very few checks. And once this stuff is up online, it becomes very, very difficult to ever get it removed. But also even in professional pornography, there is a real death of proper regulation. There are all sorts of unethical business practices. We really just need to tighten things up.

A lot of people will enter the sort of professional porn industry from situations of vulnerability. They'll often have backgrounds of disadvantage, or they have acute financial pressures. Often they have backgrounds of abuse. And being involved in pornography involves a degree of dissociation, actually. So a lot of what they experienced at the time will be kind of masked. Only later can they see that the decisions they made, the choices they made that they would have said they had made freely were actually affected by all kinds of pressures, all sorts of things that were going on in their personal circumstances. So, Gavi, you're proposing to make it an offence if Paul website.

don't comply. So what would the penalty be for them? Well, the penalty would be financial, potentially, as well, and there would also be potentially a criminal offence. But I think the conversations I've been having with the government at the moment, which are very, very constructive, I would like to add. And I think the concept and the principle of this duty being placed on porn sites is not something they disagree with at all. And we will be waiting to see the detail with what they come forward to, you know, to this proposal. And I think in reality that this needs to be far tighter regulation, because obviously the criminal law does play a part 100%, but actually regulation will be far more effective because that can reach companies that are not based in the UK where

the criminal law is fairly restrictive in that sense. And there's obviously a high bar of proof. What would be far better is a proactive duty that can be, you know, as I've said before, not a passive self-regulatory proposal, but something that actually they will have to have a duty to show that there is a human paper trail. And I think Naomi makes a very, very powerful point. You know, these are real people. Their commodity is humans. So, you know, a Futsi 100 company has to show the auditors that they have done what they should or shouldn't have done, you know, via finances and all the rest of it. The idea that this industry has absolutely no regulation at the moment when they are dealing in humans is quite extraordinary and cannot carry on.

You mentioned that you're in conversation with the government there and I should just say that the Department for Science, Innovation Technology have sent us this. They say UK law is clear. Child sexual abuse, material and non-consensual intimate images are illegal. Under the online safety acts, illegal content duties, services must prevent this vile content from appearing and take it down when they become aware. They go on to say all pornography sites are mandated under the Act to use effective age assurance to stop children accessing harmful content and offcom has our full backing to pursue any site that fails to comply with this. I also understand, Gabi, that you've been speaking to people within the porn industry too. Can you tell me what they've had

to say? Well, we had a meeting yesterday with ALO, who are the owners of Porn Hub. And look, The meeting, as you can imagine, was a very robust meeting, very frank exchange of opinions, a lot of which we don't agree on. But they are 100% behind this duty, actually, and they made that very clear that they are one of the companies that do say that they check consent and age and allow withdrawal, should, you know, withdrawal of consent and bring those images down. And so, you know, my point is that we call. We can't take the companies at their word. There needs to be that proactive assessment that they are doing what they say they do.

But like I said, there was common ground on that front. In fact, they are a company that does want to abide by the law. But the points that I made to them and where we did disagree is that the content that I view as being incredibly harmful, content like step incest, content where you can still search up, you know, sex with teens, content that is in that they would say, well, it's perfectly legal, which it, you know, therefore motivates me to change that law and have those very robust conversations with the government about why we have to actually upgrade certain types of content, which is becoming so harmful. But my point is that there a lot more can be done to try and run towards

law change that is coming down the track. And that is the sort of area of robust debate that I would have with those firms at the moment. A statement from ILO here, who, as you said, our own porn hub. They say their platforms remain the only free video sharing sites, which require and retain proof of age, identification and consent for all individuals appearing in content. We welcome this aspect of the proposed legislation and indeed have been calling continuously for this to be an industry-wide requirement. As with many aspects of online trust and safety, we are pleased to lead by example, they say. Naomi, it must be very hard for people who have, as you said, have in the past,

appeared, they want their content to be taken down. But how do you stop it from reappearing on maybe another sign? Yeah, that is a challenge and I've spoken to many victims of this kind of crime and it's difficult to overstate just how devastating it is for them on a daily basis, particularly those who were victims of abuse to just feel like that abuse content is arousing for people around the world, it's horrifying. And many will try to take videos down only to find them re-emerging on different websites or even on the same website slightly modified with a different title. So websites need to do better as well in just controlling that in actually making it much

more difficult for content to be re-uploaded. We haven't got long left, but Gabby, I'd like to just raise this that we've seen today that 60 MPs have written to Offcom urging them to protect men and boys from the so-called Manusphere influences who say they say expose them to gambling, sex, extortion and violent pornography. Do you welcome this? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I went into doing this review mainly actually about out of campaigning for violence against women and girls. But I came away, still very motivated about reducing violence against women and girls in the context of harmful pornography. but also thinking to myself, my goodness, you know, boys are our victims as well, 100%. So I back this wholeheartedly. Thank you so much for speaking to us this morning.

That's Baroness Gabby Burton and Naomi Miles, who's from the Sexual Exploitation Charity, known as Cease. And I should say if you have been affected by anything you've heard in this discussion, you can go to the BBC Action Line while you'll find out links for support there. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed.

And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now we've been talking about the enthronement of Dame Sarah Malawi, the very first female Archbishop of Canterbury

and it's more than a thousand year history which happens this afternoon. We've had lots of comments on this. Thanks so much for getting in touch. We always like to hear what you have to say. One person says, great to have a female leader in one of our oldest UK institutions long overdue and a sign of modernisation of our society. and our respect for women.

Thanks to Brian for getting in touch to. Brian says, About time, if the calling to serve comes directly from God, who can object? I'm looking forward to a new era within the church. If there was ever a time for faith, it's now, he says.

Thanks so much for all your comments and do continue to get in touch. 84844 is the number to text. Now, the revolutionary Italian designer Elsa Scaperle is being celebrated in a dazzling new exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. A leading figure in 1930s, Gaparelli designed clothes to be witty,

not just pretty, and became famous for her bold, surrealist designs. Well, a little earlier, I was joined by Sonnet Stanfield, who's the senior curator of fashion at the VNA, and curator of this exhibition, Scaparelli, Fashion Becomes Art, and also by fashion historian Justine Picardy,

who's the author of Fashioning the Crown. and Sonnet began by explaining who Scaparrelli was. She was Interwar Paris's most discussed designer who went from a kind of untrained outsider as an Italian arriving in Paris in the early 1920s to becoming someone at the very centre of Parisian haute couture. So why was it important then in this exhibition to establish her as an artist in her own right

rather than a fashion designer? Well, Elsa Scaparelli was someone who, when she described in her autobiography, shocking life, the process of working with the great artists of her day like Jean-Cacteau and Salvador Dali, she used the word exhilarating. And I think that word gives a sense of the excitement and the promise that her creative collaborations held for her. and it wasn't simply a one-way street because, of course, the artists were also equally inspired by her. So there was a fluidity around their creative practices that you can see from artist to designer and back again. Justine, just tell us what she meant to you. Well, she's so inventive, iconoclastic, controversial. One of the, I think, most iconic, and that is an overused word, but I'm not overusing it in this category,

but the most illiterally iconic dresses of the 20th century is Scaparrelli's lobster dress, which was worn by Wallace Simpson most famously and defiantly just before she married and became the Duchess of Windsor. and in that dress where there's a giant red crimson lobster that she was photographed by Cecil Beaton and the lobster is literally hanging between her thighs, it's an act of such defiance. And I think it's very rare that fashion can express defiance in that way. It's a beautiful dress that, isn't it, Justine, as well. and her designs still seem to be so relevant today. Yes, I mean, what's extraordinary is although she was so fashionable of her time,

and very often what is in fashion must go out of fashion. But her great rival, Coco Chanel, said fashion fades, style is eternal. And at her very best, those Scaparelli pieces still have that eternal, timeless, compelling quality. I think for me, both as a sort of fashion historian and as a writer, what I find still inspiring

about Scaparelli today is the idea of the female gaze because women have so often been excluded from the process of creating fashion. It's not that women don't, of course, make clothes. They always have done and very often in, you know, every couture house, there will be the female seamstresses.

But Scaparelli, you know, kind of just arrived. There was a headline in the New Yorker, a profile of her in the early 30s, and the single word headline was Comet. And I think that, yes, women, there's even fewer women in positions of sort of power. and influence in the making of fashion today. But Scaparrelli still is that beacon, is that light that says,

yes, a female gaze for what women wear is just as important and relevant today, perhaps now more than ever. Sonnet, Vogue described her as the designer of the most exciting clothes in Paris. And to go on from what Justine was saying there, she had a star for 400. Yeah, she had at, in 1935, by the time she moved into her new exciting premises at 21 plus von Dome, which she described as the kind of the center of Paris luxury. She had this sizable staff that was producing around 7,000 couture garments a year.

So it was quite an operation. And I think it's also important to think of her kind of following on from what Justine said as a female Kuturier, I think it's important to remember that, you know, she was an entrepreneur. She started from nothing. She had a young child to support in Paris. She was divorced at a time when that was considered taboo. And so she made a name for herself under quite challenging circumstances, but not just through spectacle. She was also a designer of great innovation. She pioneered the use of unconventional materials like plastics, zips as visible design features. buttons shaped like insects and of course her newspaper print, which kind of was a premonition of

the designs of others in the later 20th century. So she really elevated the everyday into the extraordinary. And I would also add on that list her launch of the color shocking pink, which was really a declaration. It was bold, it was irreverent, it was impossible to ignore. and this was an era that was often characterized. Style was often characterized by restraint, and Scaparelli insisted on exuberance. So I think those are some wonderful kind of images to hold in one's mind.

That's so interesting, Sonnet, because a lot of those things that you were saying, you know, I have in my wardrobe today, you know, the kind of embellished buttons and things like that. We're wearing those things right now, aren't we? There is, in some ways, a timelessness or a kind of correctness about even some of her most bold statements.

And it wasn't really that she was altering the silhouette, the fashionable line of garments at that time. But it was through color, color juxtaposition, embellishment, embroidery that she sort of signified a Scaparelli gown. And there wouldn't have been any confusion if you placed a gown by Scaparelli next to one of her peers. I think she was instantly recognisable for sure. Justine, she also had a bit of a sense of humour in her design, didn't she?

Yes, I think I'm so glad that you mentioned that because wit is all too often lacking in fashion, which can take itself terribly seriously. But she was witty, she was playful. There's some wonderful sonnet mentioned her buttons. And, you know, there's murmurs. made shape buttons as well. But I think as well as that playfulness and that wit,

I also just wanted to mention her sense of the magical, of the uncanny, of the otherworldly. And I think this is one of the reasons that makes her such a great designer, that link with the idea of the magic around us. So she could take something very every day like a button and turn it into something very talismanic. And when you think that our clothes, you know, they can be drab and drear and mundane,

but they can also really transport us to other places. But they're also mementos of, you know, the things that we have loved, the people we've loved, the places that we've been. And I think what's really wonderful about the fact that the V&A are doing this magnificent, exhibition is the way in which it reminds us of how a button might transport us to somewhere, a place in our past, a memory in our past, but also remind us of the possibility of places

we might go to. Where might we wear that shocking pink dress? Sonnet 1 reviewer said that it makes you, the exhibition makes you yearn for the days of dressing up, really dressing up. Is that what you wanted people to get from travelling around the exhibition? Well, I think that there is certainly so much on display that inspires one in terms of both creativity but also self-presentation. because there's gowns from as early as the late 1920s through Scaparelli's heyday in the 30s where people were dressing as they step out for dinner or for all manner of occasion.

And I think I would also add, though, that we bring the story up to date with the work of Daniel Roseberry because he's been at the helm as creative director, since 2019 and has really brought the house from being quite dormant over many decades to then really centering it on the world stage through red carpet appearances and very glamorous clientele. So it's certainly I think there's a lot to take away in terms of an inspiration, both to be perhaps more creative in one's own life, but also to be thinking about presenting

oneself to the world. Justine, what do you think is Scaparalli's influence on contemporary designers? Well, I think the idea that fashion and art can inhabit a shared landscape is very important and continues today. I think also the idea of the female gaze that she really embodies. I think that it's interesting that the two, female designers that I think of, that perhaps have continued the thread that Scaparelli established. One Maria Grazie, Kyori, who like Scaparelli, was born in Rome and is a leading woman in the world of fashion today. She became creative director of Dior, but she's now at the head of the House of Fendi, which is

Roman and run by a number of the Fendi family, including some very formidable sisters. So I like the idea of this sort of sisterhood continuing. And then Mutha Prada, who is also Italian, and I think, again, you can see in Mutual Prada's work, the ongoing conversation between fashion and art, and also not being frightened of things that other people might consider to be ugly. I think that, you know, Scaparrelli herself, in her memoir, she wrote about feeling as a little girl that she felt ugly and that her earliest attempts at surreal,

what turns out to be surrealism, were her attempts to decorate herself. So she put sort of seeds, rather children do not do this at home, but in flower seeds in her nostrils, and her ears because she liked this idea of flowers growing out of her. That didn't happen, but what did happen was this wonderful fertile imagination allows creativity to grow out of what conventionally might be deemed, in her words, ugly.

And I think anybody that continues that today is really carrying the flame of Elsa Scaparrelli. That was fashion historian Justine Picardy. and curator Sonnet Stanfill, and you can see this Gaparelli, fashion becomes art at the VNA in London. That's on until the 8th of November. You can hear a full review of the exhibition on Front Row tomorrow here on Radio 4 at 715. Now, Misty Hegginess is an associate professor at the Institute for Policy and Social Research at the University of Kansas.

Now, she's recently published Swiftinomics, how women mastermind, and redefine our economy, a book that blends pop culture insight with the real-life stories of women who are transforming the world we live in. When I spoke to Misty, I asked her what she found so compelling about Taylor Swift's story. The way that I define it is really to understand the value of economic agency and economic contributions that women make in the world today. What was it about Taylor Swift and her music that is so compelling to you that you wanted to tie these two themes together?

Coming out of the pandemic, I had been doing a lot of research around mothers and paid work. And what I was seeing, the data was different than the narrative we were telling ourselves, you know, in news media and in other spaces. And so I really wanted to write a book about the modern woman and how women engage their own economic agency in their lives. And at the same time, you know,

as observing Taylor kind of come through the pandemic, having produced two albums, she produced folklore and evermore. And I had been watching her career since 2019 when I first saw the music video for The Man, which I personally over-identified with at the time. I'm an economist by training and I was working in a nerdy statistical agency. And so I just really caught those lyrics really had meaning for me. And so as I was thinking about writing this book about the modern woman, I just became more and more transparent that everything that Taylor was doing really exemplified some of the characteristics that young women exude today in their life as they progress. And as you say, her life, her career, her

battle with her music label, they all act as inspiration throughout the book. But I wonder how relatable she actually is for the average woman, because she is hugely wealthy. Yeah. I mean, it's a fair critique or thought process. The one thing that I'll say is that one of the things that makes Taylor so successful isn't just her talent, but it's the fact that she is so relatable, that the songs that she writes and the lyrics that she writes about her life or about other women in history that have inspired her really tell stories about any woman or any human, if you want to even extend it that far. And so I think her relatability to her fans and her relateability to people who are interested in her music and her talent are what make her an interesting muse for the book

because even though she's a billionaire now, even though she is up on this pedestal that seems so high to make her unrelatable to all of us, the way that she interacts with her fans and the stories that she tells are just so relatable that, you know, I think it works. And you talk about reinvention in the book. So what do you look into and what can women take away from that? I think reinvention is a tool that we all use in adulthood. It is one of the ways that we progress as humans. And reinvention is just when something isn't working for you anymore. And so you have to kind of change direction and go along a different path. And so that could happen, you know, you could study finance and there's no finance jobs and you end up taking a job as a school teacher, for example. That's a reinvention. You could

be a high-powered lawyer. corporate lawyer and then you want to have children so you have to step back and do something that's you know not as aggressive or draining of your time that's a reinvention and we did a study for this book of over 300 adults in the U.S. and nationally representative and basically nine out of 10 adults reinvent at least one point in their career and it's the same for men and women the variation that we saw in our study was that women have more frequent episodes of reinvention So women reinvent more frequently. And you can see Taylor is also a good example of that.

She's always reinventing herself jumping from era to era. And you talk about it as being empowering. But of course, there are women who are forced to reinvent their careers, often because of that lack of support that they have when they're mothers. Yeah. So the way that I think about this is really, you know, women live in a society outside of their homes that was not built for them. that the world outside of our homes was built for the ease of men or built for the ease of folks

who have something that I call care privilege. And care privilege just means that you're an able-bodied adult, but you have somebody else who prepares your meals for you, washes your clothes for you, takes care of your children for you. And the world outside of our home is really built for folks with lots of care privilege. And so women often have to reinvent when we put ourselves to some sort of expectation of people out in the world outside of our homes who have lots of care privilege, we often have to reinvent ourselves. And then there's this feeling of shame associated with it, especially if it's a forced reinvention. And what I'm helping with this book is really to convince women to just own the

reinvention, not think about it as a failure because it's really just a part of being human. And it's particularly a part of being a human in a space in a community where your lived experiences are not the dominant lived experiences or the lived experiences of the people who are developing the society around you. In the chapter on motherhood, you talk about how as women gain more rights outside the home, they landed into an exhaustion trap. I'm one of them. Tell me about what you mean by that. Yeah. So if you look historically at the advances that have been made in women's economic agency, the things that you look at primarily are increased levels of education. So women, have higher levels of college education, younger women today have higher levels of college education

than any generation before them. Women are going to college today because they want careers, not because they want to find a spouse. Women are getting careers, the level of overt sexism in the office place, it still exists, but it's much more muted than in the past. And so there's lots more opportunities for women. And so women go through their 20s, you know, developing their careers. They get married later in life. They have fewer children and they start having children later in life. And all of this has given women a ton of economic agency with which they can be successful outside in the world outside of their home. What that means when they decide to have children, however, is that there's a huge tension because there's not enough time in the day.

There's no more than 24 hours in a day. And so part of the struggle today, I think, for women, is figuring out how to balance their professional life with family life. And I think a big part of that is not actually women figuring that out. It's society figuring that out. It's men figuring out how they better contribute in the home. You know, that's the space that we're at right now in terms of gender equity. It's no longer, you know, what women should do and how women should push for equality. It's really what can men do now to step up in the home and what can politicians do, in terms of social policy to create a world outside of our home that leans heavier onto the lived experiences of women. Well, that leads me on to another topic in the book. You talk about Barbie and

the Barbie land economy. What does that mean? During the, it was, I think, summer 2023 when Barbie came out and, you know, they did a whole marketing spin of, um, Arbenheimer. And I did that experienced the wrong way in that I went to the Barbie movie first and then Oppenheimer. And when you go to the Barbie movie and you just see just, it's so stark in your face, some of the things that we just absorb and take for granted as, you know, structural entities in terms of gender and society. And then you go and you watch Openheimer and, you know, women, there are only secretaries and wives and the stories of women are told in that scientific movie.

And so Barbieland is really, again, acknowledging the fact that there is a stark difference between how men and women experience the world. One of my critiques or suggestions that I have for Barbie land is Barbie land basically flips the gender roles, but it really doesn't say anything about caregiving and about the role of care. It remains invisible. And so, you know, Barbie is, it wakes up in the morning and her clothes are there and ironed for her. She just has to put them on. And then a toast pops out of the toaster.

And, you know, there's no, there's nothing in the movie about who's ironed. learning those clothes, who's making the breakfast for her. And I think that's the space that we need to spend more time thinking critically about. Another point you make about Barbieland is that a society like Barbieland could be built and called Fertility Land. What do you mean by that? I'm a glass-half-type-a-gal. And so when I think about what's going on today in society in terms of, you know, birth rates have gone down.

The next generation, especially women, are really struggling to figure out how they might fit familyhood with work outside their home. And fertility land for me is a space where we acknowledge the economic values that women are struggling with. And one of those economic values is when you do decide to have children, you're basically, it's a tradeoff, right? So economists are all about tradeoffs. And one of the tradeoffs you're making is for a lot of women, they're giving up at least temporarily salary in order to have children or they're either by a reduce work half time or stepping out of labor force entirely. And as women's, again, educational attainment and career paths have been skyrocketing, stepping out of the labor market to raise

children has become more costly for women. And so in fertility land, there would be some sort of recognition of this. And in an effort to really increase the population or focus on providing an environment where the next generation can thrive, we would create social policies where child care for women who do want to go out and work for pay is available, it's affordable, it's universal. Other people who do care work inside the home that is often invisible would get paid for that work. And I think if we did shift policies more in that direction and shift policies more in the

direction of incentivizing men to get more involved in care tasks that we would see the birth rate go up again. Are you optimistic about the future for women in the economy? I am. I am. I think it's really one of the most exciting times to be alive because there's a lot of shifts happening in terms of expectations around women. I write a lot in my book about many women who have decided not to stay in the traditional silos of their industries, but create parallel silos. I think Taylor Swift is one of them. She has created her own process and her own. business for existing within the music entertainment industry. Reese Witherspoon is another who was disappointed with Hollywood executives, you know, not making movies that really spoke to the lived experiences of women. So Reese went ahead and created a parallel production company called Hello Sunshine and, you know, we're all the better for it. And so I think we have enough

women today who are in these positions of either, you know, middle management or executive level who have some power and influence and are able to pull up and transition ideas within that workspace into a space that's friendlier for women. And or women have said, I've got enough resources in my pocket. I have enough income and investment money that I'm going to start something new that is in the vein of something that is more reflective of how women live their lives. That was Misty Hegginess there. We've been talking about the enthroman of Dame Sarah Malawi.

which takes place this afternoon. I just want to read one comment here. It says, I'm 63 and an Anglican Christian. I was brought up in a traditional family to believe I had a specific important role to play as a woman, but was in no way considered inferior or less important than a man. I then went on to live a very untraditional life. I worked and my husband brought up our children

at a time when this was unusual. She goes on to say, I welcome the appointment of the new Archbishop, not because she's a woman, but because I hope she has been chosen as the best, person for the job. Thank you so much for your comments this morning. Anita, we'll be back tomorrow, but from me for now. Thank you very much indeed for listening. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Parenting a young child today means navigating a whirlwind

of advice, opinions and relentless information. Tell me about it, Katie, but the good news is CBB's parenting download is here to take the edge off. Join me, Katie Thistleton, Radio One presenter and new mum. And me, Governor B, Mobo Award winning rapper and dad of two, as we discover and unpack what it really means to be a parent. From the art of negotiation to tips on dealing with parental anxiety.

Each episode, we're joined by well-known parents and trusted professionals to share their own experiences. People say you never know until you have your own, but no one ever really gets into what that means. And it's very true. Someone, when I was on my first walk with him alone in the pram, someone went, Professor Green, went, yeah, you went, congratulations, and cheers. And you went, welcome

to the truth club. I went, what do you mean? You went, you'll find out soon enough. And to provide useful tools and advice to tackle the daily challenges that come with parenting, offering honest conversations and expert insight that can really help. The biggest thing that I've noticed since I became a negotiator is we don't listen. We're really good at pretending we listen and we do this, don't we? So our young people in our life, especially are talking away.

You've asked them a question. They're answering the question and you're like this. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. because you're not really interested because you're already thinking about what's next. We've learned so much already so whether you're a first-time parent,

you've got multiple kids, you're a carer or a grandparent, this podcast is for you. Search for CBB's parenting download with me, Katie Thistleton. And me, Governor B, listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids.

I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth, available now wherever you get your podcasts.