Woman's Hour - First mum in space, Tiggy Walker, Recruiting women to Formula 1

Episode Date: October 24, 2025

50 years ago today - in 1975 - 90% of women in Iceland took part in a nationwide protest over inequality. Instead of going to the office, doing housework or childcare, 25,000 women took to the streets, forcing factories and banks to close. It was known as the 'Women's Day Off' and fifty years on, Iceland still leads the world in gender parity, topping the Global Gender Gap Report for the 16th straight year. Anita Rani is joined by Tatjana Latinović, President of Icelandic Women's Rights Association and on the organising committee of today's strike, and Kristín Ástgeirsdottir, former Women’s Alliance MP and former director of the Icelandic Centre for Gender Equality. Tiggy Walker was married to the legendary BBC broadcaster Johnnie Walker, for 23 years before his death last year. Johnnie presented his 'Sounds of the 70s' show on Radio 2 right up until two months before he died. Tiggy was his full-time carer and joins Anita to talk about the emotional toll of caring for her soulmate Johnnie after his terminal diagnosis, as described in her new book, Both Sides Now.Former NASA astronaut Anna Fisher talks about becoming the world’s first ‘mom in space’. In 1978 Anna, an American emergency doctor, was accepted by NASA onto their astronaut programme, during the space agency’s largest and most diverse recruitment drive. In 1984, Anna took off on the Space Shuttle Discovery, leaving behind her 14-month-old daughter. Anna joins Anita to talk about how that decision triggered intense media scrutiny and looks back on her trailblazing career, as featured in a new BBC 2 documentary, ‘Once Upon a Time in Space.’Stephanie Travers is a trailblazer with an impressive list of firsts during her career. She became the first black female trackside fluid engineer in Formula 1 after beating 7,000 other applicants. She is also the first black woman to stand on an F1 podium after being personally invited by the team to collect the Constructor's Trophy at the 2020 Styrian Grand Prix. Today, she’s moved into a new role as Senior Impact Manager at Mission 44, Sir Lewis Hamilton’s foundation which is focused on diversity and inclusion. Stephanie joins Anita to discuss diversifying motorsports and making STEM and motorsport careers more accessible to young people from underrepresented backgrounds.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Rebecca Myatt

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate. I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight.

It's like he's trying to date you all of a sudden. Yeah. And I do look like. my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Nula McGovern and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. While you're here, I wanted to let you know about the Woman's Hour Guide to Life, your toolkit for the juggle, the struggle and everything in between. Life is complicated and often incredibly busy. So whether you're fixing a problem at one of life's crossroads or just looking to shake things up

a bit, this is the guide you'll need to help you survive and even thrive. Each episode brings together world-class experts with women sharing their honest, powerful stories, offering real insight and also practical tips that really work. From work and career to relationships and family issues, the focus is on helping you grow, also adapt and overcome life's curve walls. It's your companion, your life coach, it's your Woman's Hour Guide to Life. Join us only on BBC Sounds, but now, back to today's Woman's Hour. Good morning and welcome to the program, a seriously impressive roll call of women on the show today. Steph Travers was the first black woman to stand on an F1 podium. What does it take to get there? She'll tell us all. Astronaut Anna Fisher,

who was dubbed the first mum in space. Have a baby. Get to to space. What a woman. I'll be speaking to her shortly. And what happens when pretty much all women and in an entire country go on strike? It happened in Iceland 50 years ago today. By the way, according to the World Economic Forum, it's the only country to have closed the gender gap by more than 90% for the first time in history. Every national leadership position is held by a woman, president, prime minister, bishop and police chief. Although apparently more is left to do as women again across the nation will take to the streets today. We hear from two of them.

And Tiggie Walker, the widow of DJ Johnny Walker, will be here to talk about their life together and being his carer through his ill health. She's written a book called Both Sides Now, after the Joni Mitchell song. It was played at his funeral, and Tiggie says it's laden with symbolism. So this morning, we're celebrating your loved ones

who are no longer with us by talking about their favourite songs or the song that makes you think of them, the one that's laden with symbolism for you. So tell us the song and the story in the usual way. Text the program 84844. Email us by going to our website or send me a WhatsApp. It's 0300-100-444. Or if you'd like to follow us on social media,

it's at BBC Woman's Hour. And of course you can text us on 84844 on anything you'd like to share with us about anything you hear on the program. First. 50 years ago today in 1975, 90% of women in Iceland took part in a nationwide protest over inequality, grinding the country to a standstill. Instead of going to the office, doing housework or childcare, 25,000 women took to the streets, forcing factories and banks to close. It was known as the women's day off. And 50 years on, Iceland still leads the world in gender parity, topping the global gender gap report for the 16th straight year.

But today, to mark the 50th anniversary that kick-started an international revolution, women in the country go on strike again, as they say there's still work to be done. While joining me, before they head off on today's strike, our Tatiana Latinovich, president of Icelandic Women's Rights Association, and on the Organising Committee of Today's Strike, and Christine Augusta – Aouske's daughter, get it right, sorry, former Women's Alliance MP and former director of the Icelandic Centre for Gender Equality. Christine and Tatiana, welcome to the programme. Christine, I'm going to come to you first because you were at the strike 50 years ago.

Why did you want to be part of it? What was happening? Well, I was at that time a student at the University of Iceland and I was studying history. And we heard all around us that women were going. It was a lot of discussions, articles in the newspapers. So, and I was a radical student at that time,

more using my time to protest against the war in Vietnam than the women's taking part in the women's movement. But me and my fellow student, we decided to go downtown and see what was going on. And it was an amazing experience. You know, coming down to this square and seeing women, you know, streaming to the square from all directions, it was really a really fantastic. And feeling this solidarity.

And then the program was for two hours. The weather was good, which is very important here in Iceland. Yeah, the weather was good. So, and, you know, they were singing. There were speeches, they were, you know, reminding us of the situation of women. And there is one speech which got a lot of attention that I remember it was the leader of one of the women's labor unions. At that time, we had women's labor unions. It was a fantastic speech.

She just spoke from her heart, you know, directly to us, no paper, nothing. She has, of course, thought about it, what she was going to say. And she was absolutely fantastic. And really what she was saying was, at that time, 50 years ago, she said, look at the world. How is the world? It's flooding in blood. And she was saying, women must take over.

And I think she, yeah, she believed that if women would take over, the world would change. So, and they still haven't taken over. No, but you've done a good job in Iceland. And Iceland's done it, done a, made a very good effort. Tatiana, what prompted the strike in 1975? Well, in 1975, the United Nations declared the year of the year of a woman, and 24th of October is the day of the United Nations.

So I think that I wasn't in Iceland at that time, but the organizing committee and the strong women's women's women that already existed in Iceland got caught to that, they got a call and decided to do something about it. though it's a very Icelandic thing to organize the big strike in Iceland is famous for that. The sort of the prompt

came from abroad. So it just shows you you're never an island. You're always connected to the world. So is it significant that they called it the women's day off rather than the strike? Yeah, at that time, I think

it was the question of reaching some sort of compromise between those that were very radical and those that were not. And I think the idea was to join and together around common issues. There were enough of them. And I think this is why they decided to call it Women's Day Off, even though in the minds of many, it was really a strike. Christine, I actually watched a documentary about this on a flight to Iceland.

And one of the details that struck me was how the network was able to harness everybody to do this. And like phone calls were made to little villages because most people know somebody who would know someone. Yeah, that's right. I want to mention also this about the day off. It was also a legal issue that if women would be going to an illegal strike. But a day off is something different. didn't know how the employees would react. But you have to have in mind

that, well, now, here in Iceland, we are only about 400,000 people. And well, what was it? 250,000 at that time. And, you know, it means that it's easy to reach people. And as you said, you, you

phone your, your friends, your relatives, and so on. And little by little this atmosphere was built that, you know, you're asking, are you going? Yeah, why not? Why not? Yes. How about you? And, you know, the word spread around. And also, you know, the committee at that time, they wrote this document, declaration, why women's day off, where they were arguing, why, you know, because, you know, women are not

at the negotiation board when it comes to the labor market. You know, they are not, they are not to register as farmers, their salary is much lower and so on and so on. So there was such a lot of things to point that and to discuss. Tatiana, did this begin change for women in Iceland? Yes, definitely. It's one of the milestones. I wouldn't say that it was a breaking point. I think Christina's historian will agree with me. But it does, it did bring change.

the first, our president, former president, Weissanbik, is Pimbo, the first democratically elected head of state in the world that came to power in 1980. She did say that it wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the strike. So, and after that, several other things, you know, like both started ruin,

the women's list was founded. Christine was part of, you know, women started participating more in the politics. So I think that even though, as one event, maybe it didn't solve everything, but it was a very important milestone. And also the fact that we have reminded the society of that date every now and then since then. This is the eighth time we are organizing the strike. And how important have these strikes been?

I think they have been very important. So I started, so I'm of foreign origin. I'm not Icelandic. I moved here in 94. founded with my friend's organization of foreign women in Iceland in 2003 and then in 2005 strike we were on the organizing committee

and it was like the first time that women of foreign origin started participating so the whole event and everything has been evolving with the society so you know you have to keep

your arms of the feminist movement It was open to everyone. So I think we have been using also the day to do that and to demonstrate that. Christine, Iceland's considered a global leader in gender equality. It's the only country to have closed the gender gap by more than 90%. You've got female president, prime minister, police chief, also women.

So why are these marches still needed? What more needs to be done? Well, today we are stressing two main issues. It's the situation on the labor market. You know, when we're still, we haven't bridged the gender pay gap. And women's jobs, you know, jobs or professions where women are the majority, they are undervalued. And we are talking about teachers, nurses, you know, those who are taking care of the elderly

and so on, which are extremely important jobs. Very, very. And I say, I often said it and I say it again, what is more important in any society than taking good care of children? Because that's the future. That's the most important thing. So the labor market on one hand and on the other violence against women. Because although we have made some very important steps towards gender equality,

the gender-based violence is about the same. in other countries. And that is a very, very interesting question. Why haven't we done better in fighting, you know, gender-based violence, violence against women first and foremost? But if I may go back to 1975, please do. I want to, as I see it, what happened was first and foremost raising of consciousness, making women aware of their situation practically very little happened, for example, in politics. The situation did not change. There were elections in 78, 79,

and there were so few women in politics. So this event did not affect the political parties, which should have done. And then this came and the horrible discussion during her campaign.

And so something had to be done. And women discussed because, you know, if we are going to change the world, if we're going to change our society, we have to do it ourselves. We have to go into politics. And you'll be back on the march today.

Yes. Shouting slogans? Yes. What slogans will you be shouting? Well, my movement, the women's list of the Women's Alliance, you know, there is a history walk and we will be at one of the stations, with a banner and, you know, some cartoons and we're reminding people of what we wanted to do.

And, well, I don't, you know, we first did run for the city council, Reykavik, and one of the slogans was, let's clean up the city council. Let's, you know, yeah, the city council needs cleaning. I'm not going to translate the other one. there are many there are many slogans you know and it's just like what we wanted to do fighting violence against women

bridge the gender pay up and so on as long I think we will also be singing there is a very famous song of Icelandic women out from Stelper onward the girls let's go girls so I think this will be our message to you and I just keep drilling keep continue

get organized And continue. Don't give up. Sounds like the woman's hour slogan to me. What a pleasure to speak to you. I wish I was there today. I really do. Christine and Tatiana, thank you so much for joining me to share that bit of women's history

and also what's happening in Iceland today. Great stuff. And dig out that documentary if you can. It's brilliant. I'll try and find the name of it and let you know before the end of the programme. Lots of you're getting in touch with songs that make you think of your name. Marist and dearest. My husband loved Buddy Holly. And when I hear true love ways, it makes me stop and sometimes be teary, but also smile. I'll read some more of yours out. The reason I ask is because of my next guest. Tiggie Walker was married to the legendary BBC broadcaster Johnny Walker for 23 years before his death from terminal pulmonary fibrosis. He presented his show Sounds of the 70s on Radio 2 right up until two months before he died. Tiggie was his full-time career through his final years. And in her book, both sides now, she reveals the emotional

toll that caring for him after his terminal diagnosis took on her and reflects on life beyond loss. And I'm delighted to say, Tiggie is here with me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Well, thank you, Anita. It's gorgeous to be here. Why did you want to write this book, Tiggie? It was a very cathartic thing to do. I will say it wasn't my idea. The author Rachel Joyce, actually, who is one of my best friends, got in touch after. She'd heard me on a radio interview in Carers Week and went, I do hope you're writing about this time of caring because I think you will write about it in a way that no one else will,

by which I think she meant with complete honesty. And I said, oh, Rachel, should I? And she said, yes, definitely. So I started writing, really, it was just a cathartic thing. It was very helpful to catch my raw emotions while I was in the thick of caring for Johnny through this, what happened to be a year of full-time care. And by chance, a month later, somebody else who is, well, my agent now, Carly Cook, who had edited Johnny's biography 17 years ago, phoned up, having heard me on another show and said, Tiggie, if you're writing, I'm your agent.

And it just doors open. Sometimes when doors open, you just have to go through them. So it just became a natural thing. And, you know, for me, the issue was the caring of Johnny. Johnny and I have for 10 years being the patrons of carers UK. So we've met many carers. We know how difficult the caring journey is. And so I wanted to capture some of that with that hat on.

How was it cathartic? Because there are times when you are so exhausted or upset or sometimes you're even angry because, you know, it's difficult. And it's emotional and it was very good to pour it out. I mean you can talk to your friends a little bit but you don't want to bore them completely with how hard it is it seems disloyal and actually she says disloyal I write it all down and then I publish it

but somehow it seems much easier and also by writing it you're connecting with people who are going through the same thing and it will be very powerful for them to not only read it but also to hear you talk about it well yes it's also a love story how did you meet Johnny

Oh, I met Johnny. It's a funny story. I was going out with a musician. I was having a summer fling with a musician called Gordon Haskell, who said to me one day, I'm seeing Johnny Walker tomorrow night for a drink. Would you like to meet him? And I just went, Johnny Walker, isn't he dead? Which was clearly I wasn't a fan. And I said, well, no, it's Monday night and that's my yoga night. So he doesn't want you to bring along your girlfriend. You're reconnecting your friendship after a long time. So I refused to. go. Anyway, they met up and Johnny went, where's Tiki? Because he had a psychic premonition that he should meet me. But Johnny was like that. And so Gordon phoned me up and I went, oh, gosh. So I, you know, got dressed and came down to, I said, well, go to, go to union, which was my club in Soho. And I met them there. And the minute Johnny saw me, he stood up with his hands outstretched, He kissed my cheek and it was like, there you are. And he was my oldest friend. I knew him and he knew me.

And from that moment on, I have believed in reincarnation. Because how did I know his soul so much? There was so much we didn't need to talk about. We knew each other. We have had lives together before. And I know that sounds woo-woo, but I can't explain it. He just felt any other way. And it wasn't lust or passion.

It was knowingness. And we sat there all evening, agreeing on everything. What happens to the other guy? Gordon had a really... He didn't have the greatest evening. But he also, when we got home, he just went, Johnny will see you again.

I'm sure he'll get you on his show. And I went, well, why would he do that? I produce TV commercials. That's hardly a kind of a showbiz kind of a topic. Anyway, Johnny did get in touch. And Gordon very sweetly said, do you know what? I think we've come to the end of the road.

And I think I'm a stepping stone for you. And Gordon recognised it. He was very gracious, dear Gordon. And grown up. And grown up. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay.

This isn't meant to be. No. You have met this guy and let's let you. And then it began. It's a really honest book. You talk about the ups and the downs of times during your marriage. But you did say life with him was never boring. And that's a great thing, Anita.

I can't think of anything worse than being married to somebody who's really, you know, completely proper and wonderful but you were bored and with Johnny you never knew what was going to happen next in fact whenever things were just going I would think oh gosh everything is just so fabulous at the moment he would do something to upset the apple cart because that was in his nature

for example he'd go out and smoke a fag and that was our big bet noir in our marriage because he nearly died in the first year of marriage from illness and so my worst and first caring journey was in the first year of marriage and the surgeons Straight away He fell ill on our honeymoon

I mean you couldn't make it up So how did you cope with that Both of you Well it was awful I didn't cope with it I stopped my career I looked after him 24-7

Funny enough It's very much a book-ended marriage That there was a year of caring Either end intense caring And it was a very difficult journey As he went through Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma You know, the chemotherapy burst open his insides.

He had life-saving operations. So it really was a very intense first year of marriage. And then he became your carer when you got breast cancer. He did several years later. We're really quite expert on caring. But what Johnny and I both believed in is that it is the hardships in life that make you learn. And Johnny always had this great saying, we are spirits on a human journey. and our job on this world is to grow

so that when we come back next time we can come back with more wisdom and knowledge. In 2019 then he received his diagnosis of terminal pulmonary fibrosis. How difficult was that phase? In a way he was told you have two to five years and we did a bit of calculation

and you sort of go oh well two years that's masses. We can do masses of stuff and we sort of ignored it. needed to get a portable oxygen concentrator so he always had oxygen with him because he was starting to need it all the time and we didn't really

really take it truly seriously until his health truly fell off a cliff on the 1st of January last year and that is because he pushed himself to come in to do a live show and he was already very ill and to do a live

broadcast on New Year's Eve we didn't know it if we'd known it was so good to be so fundamentally ruinous for him, you know, we would have asked somebody else to step in. It was because it was New Year's Eve that, you know, it was about being live and all the messages coming for a DJ. And he lived for it. And he lived for it. And it was the most amazing radio show.

So in a way, I don't regret it. It was a great final live radio show for Johnny in Wogan House, which of course now is no more as a Radio 2 studio. So I thought it was an important symbolic day. but I could tell at the end of that show that he was going downhill. He was on oxygen the whole time but he started making mistakes and I was thinking, oh gosh, he's not coping with this

and so at the end I said, well look, I'll drive home and the next day his health literally fell off a cliff he had like any professional broadcaster had pushed himself run on adrenaline and sadly it was just too much for his body at that time Up until that point, you were his full-time carer. And you write in the book about being exhausted mentally and physically. Tell me about that.

Lots of us do jobs. Anyone who's a mother runs around all day looking after children. So you can cope with the physical side, but I think it's the emotional and spiritual side. And I think why I found it particularly exhausting is I was living on nervous energy. There was that, I guess, that, you know, that cortisol, adrenaline, going through you because if he should shout out at any moment I would just drop whatever I was doing

charged out to wherever he was in the house to see what had happened and sometimes he would just go yeah Dutch I just wanted a cup of tea sorry he called me Dutchess and there was this sense we didn't know when he would go

he could have gone at any time and that's an awful way to live each morning getting up not knowing not opening his room he was in a separate room because he was on an extremely loud enormous oxygen machine. You describe it as anticipatory grief.

Yes. This sense that in that final year of Johnny's life, our life had gone. You know, there was no way we were ever leaving the house together to go for a cup of coffee or go for a meal or any of the things that we had done together as a couple that we loved. I mean, holidays were our absolute ultimate, beautiful time because we were just left alone and we could just be us

and they were very, very precious times. But the anticipatory grief, you are already grieving because your life together has gone. You know that there's only one end to this situation. And it is the day that Johnny would die. And within that situation, you feel quite trapped. You know, I was trapped with Johnny. I loved him, but I knew I was going to stay in this completely trapped situation with him. Did you talk to him about it?

Yes, we did. Yeah, you had very honest conversations. Hugely honest conversations. I mean, one of the saving graces for Johnny and myself is we both passionately believe there's life after death. I mean, the fact that we knew each other when we met is sort of proof of that. You know, and Johnny would sort of say, well, I wonder what we're going to come back as next time. And I certainly don't want to come back as his carer again. He sort of felt that he would come back and look after me, which would be fine with me.

But we, yes, we did talk. talk about everything. We talked about his fear of his death. And I think if he had any fear, it wasn't of death per se, because he was quite excited about the next part of the journey. But it was about the nature of the death. He was very scared of drowning because this disease took his lungs away from him. So gradually he could breathe less and less and get less oxygen in his body. He was scared of the sense of drowning. But as it was, it was a very sudden thing in the end. Tell us about Johnny Fest. Oh my goodness, that man. I had a few days respite with some friends and got in a carer to come in and look after him. And the caring

transpired with the carer, you know, giving Johnny supper that I had meals I'd made, drinking a bottle of wine with Johnny and Johnny playing him music. I think they had quite a good time together. And suddenly I get a text message from Johnny going, I want a party. I want to DJ for the final time with watching people dance. That's how he started. Great. And he wanted to have a party that way. And I went, so I went, yeah, Johnny, knowing he'd had a glass of wine next morning.

Now, Johnny, do you really want a party? Because if you do, I'll make it happen. And he went, yep, I do. I got a little carried away. I invited at least 50 people. All my siblings were there. And it was a great night. And Johnny wheeled in his wheelchair.

Did he DJed? Oh, brilliant. He DJed. I mean, Mark Goodyear was the stand-in DJ, so when Johnny wanted to go out, I admit it for a fag, he, Mark Goodya stood in. But it was amazing. And I think for Johnny, in a year where he couldn't go anywhere, he was stuck in those four walls of our house, the world came to him, the party came to him, our friends came, they had a great time. And for most people, it was their goodbye. And it was, I'm so proud we did that night, because it was just, so Johnny, a couple of months away from death to want to DJ? I've put a call out this morning to ask people to get in touch with songs that remind them of their loved ones. What would Johnny have thought about that? He would absolutely love that, Anita. What do you think?

Shall I read some moments? Yes, please. My lovely dad passed away this week. I'm so sorry to hear that. He was 95 years young. When we were young, he and my nan taught us to play Moon River on the piano and it reminds me of happier times, beautiful song. The song that reminds me my dear old mum who died last year is the lion sleeps tonight. I remember in those days when I was little. It was a lovely break from the frantic hurry of the school runs. We would all just stop and sing at the top of our voices and calm would be restored for at least five minutes. And another one here saying it's the anniversary of my mum's passing. So I had to message you regarding her favourite music that reminds me of her. She listened often to the radio and when any Tamla Motown music

came on, you could be sure to see her dancing around the kitchen with utensils in hand, laughing and twisting happy memories of a beautiful and strong mother. What advice would have helped you and what advice would you give to others going through a similar situation caring for somebody? I think anyone who's in an intense full-time caring situation has to remember it's not just about the person you're looking after. You have to look after yourself. And it's very easy to get very absorbed in their needs and forget your own.

Your time poor, your energy poor, all of those things. but I think the most important thing is to try and keep yourself physically okay. I mean, I did do quite a bit of exercise, but the diet, I mean, I gained so much weight last year. And I've got to tell you, everybody, it's quite hard to take it off again afterwards at this age. And I think it's because for Johnny, you know, it became comfort food. It became far more pastas and mashed potatoes and things like that, things that he wanted. There were lots of cakes. It's just whatever Johnny wanted, and he wanted simpler sort of.

if I'd say nursery food. So you eat them with him. And so that wasn't very good. So I would suggest to people that they try and look after their diet better than I did. And the other most important thing is to share. I think you just can't keep it all in yourself. If you've got a close friend you can confide in or a family member. And if not, there were groups, Careers UK has a helpline where people could just phone up and go, I'm drowning.

Did you speak to anybody? What were the times when you were, what was the worst time? Oh, I have two very close friends, Jane and Charles, and there was just one time when I just felt overwhelmed and I phoned them up and they just came straight round. And, you know, Johnny was a monkey at times and I just found it quite hard. You know, he would buy things, he would smoke things.

And when I say things, I mean cigarettes. And I just have to qualify with Johnny, don't I? and he sometimes pushed me to my edge because he knew he could and not enough it wasn't done in an awful way but it's just I was at the end of my tether and not very resilient how are you now I'm so much better now I've still got a way to go I haven't really grieved johnny properly because I've been writing this book and promoting this book and it's been wonderful and I've sort of kept johnny alive and around me He's been part of my journey all year, very much with me. And when it all dies down, I've got to sit on my own and go, oh, you've gone.

Tiggie Walker, thank you so much for coming in and sharing the story with us. And the book, Both Sides Now, is out now. Thank you. Thank you, Dwinita. A new season of Love Me is here. Real stories of real, complicated relationships. It's not even like a gender. I mean, it's wrapped up in gender, but it's just a really deep self-hate.

I think I cried almost every day. I just stole myself on the floor. He's coming on really straight. It's like he's trying to date you all of the sudden. Yeah, and I do look like my mother. Love me. Available now wherever you get your podcasts. Now, my next guest features in a new BBC2.

documentary once upon a time in space, which tells the lesser-known stories of some truly inspiring achievers in the history of space exploration. In 1984, NASA astronaut Anna Fisher became the world's first mum in space when she took off on the space shuttle discovery, leaving behind her 14-month-old daughter, Kristen. And in those 192 hours of her first space flight, she caused a media storm attracting attention from all corners, including from President Reagan, as you'll hear in a moment. But first of all, Anna, welcome to Women's Hour. Oh, I'm very glad to be here.

Oh, it's very nice to talk to you with you. It's nice to see you. Even at 4 o'clock in the morning. I know, 4 a.m. Thank you so much. You look very glamorous and it's nice to see that you've got your NASA outfit on for us as well. So it was 1978 when you were successful in your application to join NASA. And this was part of a diverse recruitment scheme to encourage aspiring astronauts of all genders and racial backgrounds.

You were accepted alongside five other women and men such as Ron McNair, who'd grown up under segregation in South Carolina. Just how significant was this moment? Just, you know, I had dreamed of being an astronaut since I was 12 years old when I listened to Alan Shepard, the first American to launch into space. And I don't know what it was that captured my imagination, but that is what I always wanted to do. and the amazing class that I was a part of,

the 35 new guys of which Ron was a part of it, it kind of changed the view of what the public had of what an astronaut could be. No longer had to be only the test pilots with that type of background, but it could also be scientists and people with other backgrounds. So it was really wonderful to be a part of it, but I wanted to be a part of it

because I just always wanted to be an astronaut. From when you were a little girl, out from 12, what was the selection process? How hard was it? Well, it was, you know, first, you have to realize back in those days, you didn't just go online and submit an application and upload your documents. You had to do everything by mail,

an actual physical application and fill it out and letters of recommendation and all that. So just getting all of that together because I found out about the selection, very late, about a month before the deadline. And so then, about six weeks later, after turning in my application, I found myself in Houston interviewing. It's a week-long interview process where you get physical exams with doctors,

two different psychiatrists, but the big thing, assuming you passed all those tests, was your interview with the selection board, which was about 10 or 12 people, astronauts, the director of flight crew operations and an hour-long interview, and that's the process. And today, the process is still very similar today. They've added a few extra things because they've learned, you know, what kind of skills people need to have. But basically, the process is still the same as it was back in those days.

Incredibly rigorous. But let's remind ourselves of the era, because this was the late 70s. There was no Disneyland. Jimmy Carter was the U.S. president. Did I read that you wore a green pant one suit with wedges to your interview? So the fashion was fantastic. But sexism was rife. Well, it wasn't so much as sexism as it's just women weren't allowed to do those sorts of things.

For example, it never even occurred to me to join the military and try to become a pilot and go to test pilot school, like the earlier astronauts. that that never even occurred to me because women weren't allowed to do those things. Some of the newer female astronauts, you know, have incredible backgrounds of fighting in combat in Afghanistan and so forth. But that didn't even occur to me. So it was just a very, very different era. And I describe it sometimes is I feel like I, like a surfer that caught a wave at just the right moment as the societal norms were starting to change. And so for me, for the women in the program, for Ron McNair, whom you mentioned, and that, you know, all of a sudden doors were opening that previously had been closed. And it's interesting when I talk with young women now, you know, so many of them don't even realize because it wasn't that long ago.

You know, we're talking about the late 70s, early 80s, but they just don't realize that it was a very different era in what women. were allowed to do. And the mission was in 1984, and you'd been very open in the interview that you'd wanted to start a family. You had your baby, Kristen. You had her on the Friday. You went back to work on the Monday.

Had you planned for this? You know, quite frankly, when my boss called me in about two weeks before Kristen was born and said he wanted to assign me to my first flight, I was actually shocked. I was not expecting that. But at the same time, I was proud that he thought that I could handle that.

I wasn't trying to be a super mom or anything like that. The reason I went in the following Monday was because, one, I was excited. I had his amazing baby and this crew assignment. But because it was such an unusual situation for the times, I just wanted all my friends and colleagues to know that although I had just had a baby, I was definitely going to be on that flight. You know, I feel very privileged that I was given that opportunity and that I was one of the first six women in the United States.

So, you know, there was saying no was not an option in my mind. Why would you? You want an amazing achievement. And we've got some incredible bits of something for you to listen to. This is you in space talking to the then-President Reagan. Anna, since this is your first flight, are there any surprises that you've encountered? And I couldn't help but wonder if you'd recommend a career as an astronaut to your daughter, Kristen. Oh, that I would, Mr. President.

The experience is just everything I expected and even more. Seeing the world below us, it makes you realize just how we're all just, part of this world. It's a truly incredible experience and I'm going to recommend it fair highly. That's wonderful. What's it like hearing that? It's quite magical. Oh, you know, if I had any heroes at that time of my life, it was President Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, who I got to speak with at our post flight when they brought us to London. And so I got to meet in person and talk with the two people that I was really so excited about meeting.

And so then you were described, the politicians, leaders at the time. You had, you'd left your, she was 14 months old when you went into space and you did face some criticism. Oh, yes. One of the things I'm incredibly grateful for is that the internet and social media was not around when the first six women were selected and then when I flew. in space. Because as it was, you know, there were people who thought I was doing a good thing and there were other people who were critical. But we were pretty much insulated and protected

as we were working and we didn't have social media and all those sorts of things that it probably would have been a very different experience. And I understood why some people thought, you know, that was not a good thing to do. It was hard. Leaving Kristen was one of the hardest thing I ever had to do since you didn't know 100% for sure that you were going to come back. But I also felt incredibly privileged to be in that first group of women. And so saying no to my flight assignment was just not even an option in my mind. So the way I deal with difficult things like that is, you know, I don't second guess myself. I made a commitment to be an astronaut and I was very fortunate to be in that first group so I didn't I didn't think that

there was any other option no and also no one ever questions fathers in space do they it's only ever mothers but and and your daughter is interviewed in the documentary and she's very proud of you and what an amazing story to hear from you Anna this morning and thank you for getting up in the middle of the night to speak to us Anna Fisher speaking to us Probably the earliest I'd been up in a long time. You look very glamorous at 4 a.m. The documentary, thank you. The documentary is on EyePlayer.

It's called Once Upon a Time in Space. Now, talking of first, women who achieve first, Stephanie Travers is a trailblazer with an impressive list of first. During her career, she became the first black female trackside fluid engineer in Formula One after beating 7,000 other applicants. She's also the first black woman. woman to stand on an F1 podium after being personally invited by the team to collect the Constructors trophy at the 2020 Sterian Grand Prix. Now she's moved into a new role as senior impact manager

at Mission 44, Sir Lewis Hamilton's Foundation, which is focused on diversity and inclusion. Stephanie, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you for having me. How inspiring was that? That was so inspiring. I was watching you listen to that interview thinking, yep, can relate to that. Because tell me about where your passion for engineering came from. I've loved engineering from a really young age. I was born in Harare, Zimbabwe, and both my dad and my grandfather had engineering workshops. So after school, I would spend time in my dad's workshop, and I would sneak out of the room where I'm meant to be doing my homework to be in that workshop

and really see what was going on. I was really fascinated by equipment and taking things apart and putting them back together from a young age. So that love just continued to grow as I grew older and older. And Formula One was a weekend activity for me and my family. It's something that we watched as a family together and we discussed those races. And that love just continued to grow as I got older. Did you experience any challenges when you first tried to get into engineering? I did, actually.

So when I was in sixth form, I was sending off my UKAS application to go to university. And I wanted to study chemical engineering. However, one of the teachers and the careers advisor at the school called my parents in and told them that we should consider sending it off for something else as I'd never make it as a good engineer. I felt like my world was shattering at that point. It was something that I really wanted to pursue. Unfortunately, my parents have been that support structure for me and they really fought hard to the point where the school decided to send my application.

But we had looked at other avenues, such as taking. a year out to go to college and sending my application via that route instead. Well, I mean, I just, sorry, my jaw just sort of hit the floor when you told me that's true, because that could have changed the course of your life completely, just somebody not believing in you. What do you think that was? I don't know. At that point, I was so focused on engineering and that's all I wanted to do.

I knew that that was what I wanted to do. It was my passion point. and so I just decided to continue down that path. I didn't let what they said deter me and it actually gave me the drive to do better. So I wanted to go to university. I wanted to graduate with the first class honours and I did just that from the University of Bradford

before then going and doing my master's at Imperial College London. Big up, big up Bradford's. What was your path to F1? My path to F1 following my degrees. I worked in a chemical plant called BASF in the north of the UK and Petronus launched a global talent search in 2018. So I applied to that, along with around 7,000 people around the world. I had to do a series of tests, so numerical reasoning, verbal reasoning, personality tests, to name a few.

Then I needed to do a one-minute video answering questions from the team that was posted on YouTube. And the world had to vote alongside internal Petronus employees. I wanted to drop out at that stage, as I'm such an introvert. Terrifying. It was really scary for me to do that. But I powered through after a big push from my parents and my siblings. And I was successful and got flown out to Kuala Lumpur for the final stages. The first was a case study interview.

So they were testing all my engineering knowledge. And I passed that and had to do an amazing treasure hunt to find the CEO of Pretchenous Lubricants and have my final interview with him. I mean, there's a parallel, isn't there, between you and Anna, the astronaut. You've just got to apply. Put yourself out there, even if you are petrified, just overcome the fear. Tell us about the job. Your role for Formula One, trackside fluid engineer. What does that actually mean? So as a trackside fluid engineer, I would look at the fluids within the car. So your engine oil, gearbox oil and fuel. I'm monitoring them for compliance with the FIA's regulation. So that's a sports governing body.

If you don't comply with those regulations, you get disqualified for a racing. weekend. But then in addition to that, as you progress through the race weekend, we want to monitor the wear. And where's normal? You get a normal amount of wear within any car. However, if we have excessive wear, it indicates that there might be a problem within the car. So I'm wanting to detect that as early as possible so that the team can then make a decision on whether they change the engine or not, as if you have a failure during the race, you lose out on points. Yeah, so I'm fascinated by the engineering of F1 because it's it's there's just the everything has to be perfect right everything is suited up and tweaked to the nth level degree to get those machines to be as fast as

possible indeed and there's a large number of people working on the cars so every team has thousands of people behind the scenes and at a particular race weekend wherever you are in the world you travel with around 100 150 people is it very glamorous it was but it was really tough, a really tough environment to work in. So knowing that I was passionate about the sport helped me through that, but you're doing really long hours and you're dealing with jet lag at the same time. So it was really a testing environment, but something that I loved so much. And then you got the opportunity to be the first black woman to stand on an F1 podium and raise the constructors trophy in the air. How did that come about? I was hanging off the pit wall in

Austria at the Sturian Grand Prix second race of the season following COVID. And funny story, my dad predicted that that was going to happen. He said to me, with everything going on in the world, I have a feeling that if Lewis wins, you're going to be on the podium at the first race he wins that season. So I hope you've done your hair and I hope you go to the track tomorrow with your hair and your makeup done. I was like, Dad, it's never going to happen. I did not wake up in time to do my hair properly.

so I just had my hair slicked back and my nails were not done I was not ready for the occasion but Lewis won the second race of that season and I was celebrating with the team when I was then approached and asked to go on the podium and my initial reaction was nope I think you've got the wrong person but they said no it's definitely you and you're going up

so I didn't have time to text my parents or my family I was literally on the podium within a few minutes following that and just embraced it. It was such a surreal feeling. What did it feel like? Did you understand the significance of the moment? I actually didn't at the time. I was, I had zoned out, if I'm honest. Just being on the podium, it's something that you just don't get to do every day.

And it's something I never thought I would get the opportunity to do. But getting to experience that alongside Lewis, who was that person that made me believe that there was a space for me within the motorsport sector, meant that much more. And I think at that time, I wasn't just holding a trophy up. I was opening the door now for many more young people to follow in my footsteps. And I definitely felt eyes of thousands of young women looking at me at that point based on the outreach that I got from many young people following that moment.

And these are facts and figures that you will know that in 2021, the Hamilton Commission found that black people made up only 1% of F1 employees in UK Motors. So what recommendations were made to address this? There were various recommendations such as, well, Mission 44, was set up to address some of those recommendations and one being scholarships and supporting students that can't afford to go to university and get the right qualifications to enter into the sport. Mission 44 has got a set of scholars. We have 13 motorsport scholars now from cohort one. There were five scholars in cohort one. Four out of the five have landed jobs within the

motorsport sector, which is an amazing achievement. But by addressing some of those barriers that they had, such as not being able to afford to do a master's degree and get those qualifications and giving them that wraparound support to enable them to interview successfully, it closes the gap and puts them at par with other candidates that are also applying to the sector. And what about getting more women into STEM subjects generally? We do a lot of that. So at certain races across the season, we invite groups of young people to the track. I'll give you an example. Last weekend, I was in Austin. And we had 30 young women from a local organisation called Girl Start that we brought to the track.

We had them doing some engineering and coding challenges in the morning. They get to hear from Lewis firsthand on the challenges that he faced in the motorsport sector and everything that he's achieved. I had the opportunity to also talk to them about my journey. But then we take them behind the scenes. They get to do a garage tour and understand the types of careers that are behind the scenes in the motorsport sector, careers that aren't widely talked about so that we inspire them and open their eyes to opportunities that they might not know about.

And it's all about just encouraging them to continue. pursuing STEM. And there is a growing female interest in F1. The racing driver, Susie Wolf, spoke about this on the Today program just this morning. Largely due to Netflix's drive to survive, gaining 40% female viewership. What do you make of that? I think it's amazing. It's such a fantastic sport to follow. And having more women watching it and being inspired by what they see on TV, is only going to increase the number of women that we'll see within the sport in the future. So it's been great that the sport has been showcased more broadly. I think a lot has been done by Formula One, by teams, by Mission 44 to really try and drive this and push this. So hopefully we'll see

the sector continuing to change. And what's next for you, Stephanie? You're seriously impressive and still only 31. Thank you. I am really interested in getting into senior level leadership within the motorsport sector. So the reason why I left Formula One and came within Mission 44 and the wider ecosystem of Lewis was to run a rating team that he was, that he owned called X-44, so as deputy team principal for that. And I wanted to expand beyond my engineering skills and get stakeholder management skills and all the skills that would need to go into leadership in the motorsports sector. So I think for now, I'm embracing where I am at the moment, hoping to go back into the motorsport sector soon, but will always keep Mission 44 close to my heart as that

means so much to me to inspire the next generation. Yeah, and I mean, you do it, you do it. You're doing it by just existing. What advice would you give to young people from diverse backgrounds who want to get into STEM? I would say you really have to believe in yourself. Believe that there is a space for you within the sector. And just to pursue a passion point, you spend so much of your life working. So it's so important to be doing something that you love and have a strong support structure, whether it's your friends, your friends, your family, speak to people about what you want to do. And yeah, truly believe that nothing can stop you from achieving your dreams. Yes, great advice.

And what a way to end a week of Woman's Hour. Stephanie Travers, thank you so much for coming in. Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. The figure's face was featureless and its entire body was jet black. I'm Danny Robbins and throughout October

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