Woman's Hour - Flying with children, Comedian Rosie Jones, wedding party wax seals, Theo Clarke MP birth trauma, Anorexia Nervosa treatment

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

The inclusion of a particular word in the title of the documentary has caused controversy. For many, it is an extremely offensive term and some contributors have made it publicly known and have withdrawn their contribution from the programme. Rosie talks to Nuala McGovern about the project. A growing trend in the wedding industry is to add wax seal to your invites. If you scroll through any wedding stationary images on social media, you’ll see people using little round wax seals in all sorts of colours and designs. Nuala asks Diane Wisdom, co-founder of Heirloom Seals about the trend. Plus, Dr Elizabeth New from Aberystwyth University, Reader in Medieval History and Leverhulme Trust Major Research Fellow, explains what we can learn about medieval women from historical wax stamps. Theo Clarke, the Conservative MP for Stafford, gave birth last August to a daughter. She had a 40-hour labour and a third-degree tear. She is now working closely with the Birth Trauma Association and she recently met with 11 other mums in parliament who have suffered horrendous experiences giving birth. To help women avoid these experiences, she is setting up an All-party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on birth trauma which launches tomorrow, 12th July. As the holiday season begins we talk to Jane Dowden and Lucy Cavendish about travelling on planes with small children, how to deal with tantrums and disgruntled fellow passengers. And we hear from one woman who says a new approach to treating anorexia nervosa has saved her life. as well as from Conservative MP Danny Kruger who says current provision is inadequate and who says he is hopeful having heard the results that some of his constituents and their families are telling him about this new approach.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Manager: Bob Nettles

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. In a moment, comedian Rosie Jones, who is on a mission to combat ableism. Her documentary illustrating the online and offline abuse she has endured is just shocking. You may know that the documentary has caused controversy by its title. We'll talk about that and also how she is fighting discrimination one tweet at a time. Also today, are you gearing up for a flight with children in the coming weeks?

Maybe you've done it before and are not keen to repeat the experience or have you found out the way to make it plain sailing? Well, many of us will have been on that plane with fractious children, which may or may not be your own. It can be fraught. I want to hear your stories about what you've learned, whether as a parent or guardian, or as the person getting kicked in the back of your seat.

You can text the programme. The number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. The number for WhatsApp or a voice note is 03700 100 444. Keep your tips coming, we need them. We're going to hear also from women who are intimately acquainted with the preparation and the pitfalls of it all. Also today, we're going to hear about a new approach for anorexia. It is called Integrated Enhanced Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, or ICBTE. That's coming up.

And we have the Conservative MP for Stafford, Theo Clark, here with her personal story of birth trauma and also what she's doing to help other women from going through it. And you might have heard a little earlier, wax seals. So no, not the mammals, but the growing interest and industry in having personalised seals. And yeah, a little bit of history on them too. But first, the comedian Rosie Jones, who has cerebral palsy, has made a personal documentary about the online abuse and ableist slurs that she and other disabled people are subjected to. She sets out to try and understand how prevalent disability trolling is and why it is often left unchecked. She wants everyone to be more aware and to stand up to it when they see it.

But the inclusion of a particular word in the title of her documentary has caused controversy. It's a discriminatory term, which I'll refer to. Some contributors made their objections to its inclusion known and have actually withdrawn their contribution from the programme.

And in her first broadcast interview since the backlash, I asked Rosie why she chose to call the documentary Rosie Jones, Am I a Retard? When that is the very word that she most objects to being used about her. I have had cerebral palsy for 33 years. And that means going through school, walking down the road

and now having a public platform on social media, I get to experience that word, you stab me as a weapon nearly every day. Nearly every day? Yeah. In the street, on social media, somewhere, I will hear it. And you saw me come in today with headphones because I do not walk down the street

without wearing headphones to protect myself from hearing laughter or ableist self. I know it's controversial, but I needed to use that specific word in the title of my documentary to start the conversation around slurred enabling because it is my opinion that it is not taken as seriously as obnoxious. So you are

as well as the presenter one of the executive producers on the documentary so it sounds to me like you were very much pushing for that title. Yes it was my decision and throughout

the production company and general board have supported me. But they have always said, this is your story, this is your leadership experience and therefore it is short decision. So there has been backlash, as we know. At the beginning of the documentary, you do say that you understand it will be upsetting to many. And there was backlash, particularly within the disability community,

to the inclusion of the R word. A little from the learning disability charity, Mencap, if I can read that. They say the R word has been used as an offensive slur directly towards people with a learning disability or referring to them for years. People have told us they're shocked and upset by the title of this documentary.

If offensive words are to be eliminated in the narrative around disability, they must be taken out of circulation completely. They should be regarded as truly unspeakable. What would you respond? Well, I have read all of the criticism and I'll be honest with you, it's not been my easiest few weeks

because I think criticism that comes from within your own community hits harder but I have said all along in this film and in my comedy that I can only tell the story of what it's like to be a woman with cerebral palsy and unfortunately that means that that R word is used against me a lot of the time and I don't think the abusers care if it's a word associated with me or people with intellectual disabilities. It isn't my word, No, but also, it isn't their word, and it's no one's word. But the truth of the matter is, it's a word that is still heard, used casually in schools, in pubs, in the street. And I think by using it in the title, I am in no way encouraging people to use it. And in the same breath, I am in no way trying to reclaim it. I am highlighting it as a word

that is still used casually and it needs to stop. And I want to get into the content of the documentary in one moment. I would just like your response as well to some of the contributors that are disabled. Kate Stanforth, for example, a disabled dancer and activist. They talked about the issues that they had with the word and withdrew their consent to use the material in the documentary. What do you say to Kate and others? Because you've told me it hits harder when it's from within your community.

And obviously these were people that you were collaborating with. So I'm imagining that must have been tough. Yeah, incredibly tough. And I feel very upset at their decision. But I need to stretch that. that the channel and the company had many, many conversations with them. They were aftercare for every contributor in the doc and we explained the reasons behind the language and we talked about how it was my own orthodox baby and we encouraged them to watch the film to understand all the reasons for that and unfortunately they didn't

want to but what I will say is I think it just highlights the fact that the disabled community isn't one person with one opinion and one experience. I think we're having this debate because we all come from different places. So although it is unfortunate that we had to take the scene out of a film, I still firmly believe that we get a point across of wanting to start a conversation about ableism.

And I want to start that conversation with you right now, Rosie, because I think a lot of people won't know what you're talking about when I say the word ableism. How would you describe it? Yeah, that's an interesting one. And I think it was said, what is racism? What is sexism? What is homophobia, everybody could tell you in one or two short sentences. And I think when I talk about ableism. People say, oh, what's that? Is it a thing? And they don't really get it. And it is simply in a nutshell.

And we talked a little bit about what you're going through, wearing headphones to avoid the abuse that you get on a daily basis. You take us through your life about what you go through with online trolling. Do you think that ableism trolling is not treated the same way as other forms of abuse? Yeah, definitely. And you see it in the documentary. There is a tweet in particular that says, you are retarded. And in my opinion, you could not get a clearer form of ableism. In three words, they have reduced me down to my disability

and we report that abuse. And Twitter came back and said they did not see it as a form of abuse and I think it is because Twitter and other social media companies, they know what racism is. but when it comes to ableism, I do not take it as seriously. You didn't give up there, though. You created a cookie. I like the cookie for Twitter

and delivered it with the R word on it. You were wearing a T-shirt again with it. But you did get some results. Yes. And actually, I think we come back to the title a little bit because in not all all cases but for me certainly in this case you need to approach the problem head on you need to make a cookie you need to make a t-shirt you need to get out there and shout and scream and say this is not okay because I think especially when it comes to disability, society sees us as the weak ones, the victims and therefore we get taken advantage of more than other people. So this is my way with my big t-shirt, with my messy cookie

and with my Channel 4 documentary that I'm so proud of to say stop ableism. Rosie Jones, you can watch her documentary on Channel 4 on Thursday the 20th of July at 10pm also I should say she is going on tour

the triple threat to Edinburgh Festival Fringe as well so you can also catch her there she was telling me she's looking forward to getting back

to being a comedian her other job Now school holidays upon us in some parts of the UK maybe of the kids already. Are you planning on taking a flight?

Are you thinking about how that flight is going to go? Are you worried about tantrums on that flight? You know you may never see some of the people that are on that flight with you again, but it can be a stressful situation flying with children. Can you expect kids to behave the same as adults? I am joined by Jane Dowden, actor-comedian known as Mum with a Mic on Instagram and mother to identical six-year-old twin boys. Also Lucy Cavendish, author and therapist and mother of four mostly grown-up children and on holiday in Greece.

Welcome to both of you. Good morning. You know, I just threw this out to our listeners at the top of the hour and I can't tell you how many messages are coming in. I'll get to them in just a moment but Jane let me start with you. Twin boys, six-year-olds, how has it been over the years flying with your boys? Tricky yeah it's yeah it's it's not the most fun I've had um my husband's actually from New Zealand and we still haven't done that flight and is it because of the flight is it just the thought of it yeah it really is I just I feel like until they're a little bit older and I can reason with them then we will bite the bullet and do it.

But until then, we're going to we're going to build up to it slowly. We're going to stay in Europe, I think. Yeah, we've had we've had we've had a few funny incidences like we try and be prepared. And that's the thing I think you can. I do packs for my boys. So I do stickers and colouring in and and all those things are great for about 45 minutes. And then you're just in the thick of it like every other parent on that flight. And you just don't know what you're going to get. And what are you worried about? Is it that the child is distressed or is it the looks from other passengers?

That for me, it's 100% judgment from others, from other people on the flight. We had a really unpleasant experience when the boys were quite little, they were only two and a half. And we were flying to France. And they just were excited. I mean, they were very excited. So I can appreciate for people around us, it was a little annoying, but they were two and a half, you know, sort of bashing on things wanting to run up and down and we were trying to manage it as best we could and I think everybody could see that I was frantically reaching for those stickers and the colouring pens and whatnot and it just none of it was working and there was not much we could do we were stuck on a plane

and there was a couple in front of us and the lady just kept looking and I didn't I couldn't really understand what was going on. And I just asked her if everything was OK. And she said, no, I think I think you can't control your children. I think it's disgusting. And yeah, I just you're letting yourself down. And it was it was awful. It was. And her husband kind of turned around and reiterated the same point. And honestly, I have never ever felt more shamed in my life as a parent as a mum of twins people are normally quite sort of congratulatory whatever the word is yeah yeah you know they think wow well done to you um and in this instance it was just the complete opposite and it was it was so upsetting it really

was what did you do I cried I didn't want them to see but I just sort of silently sat there crying and a lovely air hostess had kind of seen what had happened and brought me over a glass of prosecco which was so sweet and then as we left actually I think the captain had been made aware so the boys were ushered into the cockpit and got to see the plane. And it was lovely, but it honestly, it almost ruined the holiday for me. It really put me on edge because for the rest of the holiday, I was so desperate to just not upset anyone, anywhere, anything. And it was just, I did try and reason with her.

And I said, you know, come on, you've had children. You must understand I'm trying my best. And she just said, you know, she just wouldn't have any of it. She said, well, my children never behaved like this. It's appalling. It's it's so interesting. I'm reading one that came in as I'm listening to you. It says on a flight from Dublin last week, a child screamed and I mean screamed at the top of its lungs as though it was being tortured for an hour or more nonstop. I've never heard a child scream so loudly or for so long in my whole life. It was absolutely ear-shattering and the last thing you need when you have to get up at 4.30 in the morning. When I complained to the stewardess I got no reaction at all but I'm

thinking that of the passenger in front of you but let me turn to you Lucy. I mean how do you diffuse these situations do you think because your youngest is a 16-year-old now, so you must have been through it. Yes, yes, I have four children. I've cleared airports. I've virtually cleared aeroplanes. I flew back from New York. My eldest son is 26, so when he was little,

we flew back from New York. He screamed the entire way, literally the entire way. And at that point in economy they you know they had one telly and they took the film off and they got to sit with the air says you know in the end I'm so sorry Jane you've had that terrible experience I have nothing but empathy and sympathy for people traveling with small children and I do my best to help and play with them and my elder children are brilliant they'll color with them they'll talk to them they'll pay

peekaboo with them because I know how horrible it is and one day a woman said to me can't you control your children and I said plainly obviously I can't but I obviously can't but if you'd like to give it a go be my guest and I I got over the judgment thing yesterday on the flight out to Greece my daughter who who's quite something you know she's not shy and being vocal decided just as we were about to taxi that she needed to use the loop and said you know I've got to go to the loo I was like well look you know the seat but like so she stood up and at the top of her voice said I've got to go and the air hostess ran down I was like yes yes yes yes we'll stop the plane you know and she was like ah job done off she went I I think it's atrocious we are so intolerant the people that are traveling with the children are the people that are suffering. I see pushing toddlers and babies through the airport, doing push chairs, bottles, you know, trying to plug them into whatever thing they can find just to make them be quiet.

You know, why do we have a problem with that? They want to, you know, they run up and down, they kick your seat. Honestly, you know, we're grownups, we're adults. Surely we can't do it. Let me read a few. It's interesting, the toilet one you just brought up there, Lucy. Henrietta tweeted, my darling daughter, then age two,

took one look at the plain toilet and insisted on her potty. I managed to dig it out of the overhead locker. She sat mid-aisle on her potty and announced, don't worry, mummy, I won't do a poo. How we laughed, says Henrietta.

Here's another one from David. Back in May 2012, my ex-wife and I were waiting to board a flight and our eight-month-old son would not stop crying. A man in the queue ahead shouted, someone stick a dummy in its mouth. I was shocked, I still am. Actress Anne Kilbride was also queuing, was outraged and defended us. I mean, the stories are coming thick and fast. Some people with help or what would I say, tips as well.

My biggest lesson was to prepare my children for the general process of flying. As I sat in the middle seat with my two and four year old, my husband selected the seating and happened to be on the opposite aisle because little dig. All was well on takeoff. Boiled sweets at the ready to ease the ear popping. Half an hour in, my four-year-old calmly asked, when do we get the parachute? You can prepare yourself with colouring books, tech and snacks.

But I guess I should have discussed the fundamentals that the plane will land without us having to jump out. And that one from Ellie. But I mean, what does work? Because I think a lot of people will be plotting and planning trips. You know, you do see those arguments about whether young children should fly, whether they should be allowed in business class,

whether there should be child-free flights. You know, these ideas that are floated, I guess, every holiday season. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about that, Jane? About people having an issue with people like kids flying? Yes. Yeah, well, it's just a bit weird, isn't it?

Because, you know, we were all babies once. And I just think a bit of tolerance is all that's required. As you said earlier, 100%, nobody is more upset in that moment than the parent or carer of that child. And so actually just showing a bit of humanity is just priceless and that could change her day. What about, what do you think has worked for you? You have six-year-old twins, you are by now an expert.

Screens, really. I mean, so we do take all the coloring in and the stickers but as I say you buy limited amount of time you feel like a great parent during that moment you know but then inevitably the screen comes out I made a mistake we went to France a few years ago and someone had said oh you'll need a you know you need a screen a tablet for your kid and I was like oh right look they're quite expensive they can share that's probably the most foolish decision I've ever made um so yeah we had to frantically order a second one out to France for the flight back so that we didn't have the screaming about sharing on the flight I think just I think it's just yeah trying to prepare as much as you can taking a a pack for each with some colouring bits.

If you've got a screen and, you know, your kids use screens, take those and then just take a deep breath. Take a deep breath. Do the flight and just know that at some point it's going to be over. You're going to be at your destination and hopefully have a lovely holiday. Here are some more. Kat, I have three children aged four, oh twins, and six. And while I'm conscious of trying to keep noise to a minimum, I know that it's impossible. And if someone made a comment about their noise, then the tiger mum in me would definitely come out.

Adults can be annoying on planes too. I think a lot of us would agree with that. Ella Delancey-Jones tweeted, and Ella wrote an article in The Eye on this yesterday. She says as parents, prep, prep, prep. New toys they've not seen before and snacks. Other people, there might be kids. They deserve to be there as much as you.

Take noise-cancelling headphones if you're so bothered. And please don't be unkind. But Lucy, you know, as you've, over the years, do you think that airlines could be doing more to try and defuse that situation? I'm not sure airlines could do. I mean, you know, airlines have now really pared themselves back down. So you don't even get a magazine now. I mean, they could do packs,

you can do kiddie meals. You know, I think actually doing there's all sorts of things you can do. I think screens are actually being, you know, a lifesaver for most people. I spend a lot of time drawing cats wearing earrings for my daughter when she was little, that's all she seemed to want to do. But I just think people need to help the mums and dads who are sitting on a plane with the kids. What can the airlines actually do about it? I don't think they can do child-free flights. That feels really over the top.

Every so often they kind of talk about child areas like there used to be smoking areas. I've read that one before in an article. But do you have sympathy maybe not empathy for people who perhaps whether they're working the minute they get off that flight or that they've saved up for

a year and they want the flight to be something fun and peaceful for them maybe really getting annoyed. I have one person here who says they have a physical condition and that kicking in the back of their seat drives them crazy. What do you think, Lucy? Well, I think it's the holiday season.

I mean, you know, where are we going to go to with this? Are we going to say, actually, you know, children can't go on aeroplanes and et cetera. We can all, you know, we can all work.

I work. I'm a mother. I'm sure Jane works. I can manage to take my children away and work. It doesn't stop me from functioning in society. For the people that find it physically, you know, they've got a physical element, yes, I think there needs to be something like asking to be moved or saying, actually, I've got a really bad back.

Can we do something about this? When you tell a little,'s say boy in my experience to stop kicking the chair in front guess what happens they don't stop kicking the chair in front they actually do it more it's really difficult and then the parents get stressed and then it all gets worse and worse and worse that's the problem the stress ramps everything up for the parents and for the children lots of lots of comments in. Jane Dowden, thank you very much and also Lucy Cavendish. They've started that conversation. You continue it

84844. You've heard their thoughts maybe you have a different take. Let me know. Do get in touch 84844. Now, I want to follow up next on a story that we did back in May which revealed that some people with eating

disorders were being offered palliative care after years of revolving door treatments going in and out of hospital but never fully recovering. The Royal College of Psychiatrists were so worried about this that they came on Women's Hour to warn that this was not acceptable and that an eating disorder like anorexia is not a terminal illness. During that programme we heard campaigner Hope Virgo mention a new approach, which appears to be helping some people who are severely ill despite many years of traditional treatment.

We're asking for around £340 million to be put into adult eating disorder services, which may sound like a lot to some people, but it's a drop in the ocean compared to what we're currently spending budget on at the moment. We're also asking for them to look at what treatment out there is working.

We know that in some parts of the country, such as Oxford, there is some fantastic treatment being rolled out that has huge success rates around recovery. So why aren't we having that rolled out elsewhere? So we wanted to find out more about this. Let's speak to our reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, who's here in our studio. So this isn't something, though, Carolyn, we want to underline, that everybody can access. That's right. Nobody wants to give any false hope to anyone

listening because this isn't available to everybody in the UK. And indeed, it might not be suitable or successful for everybody with a severe eating disorder. But one NHS trust in England is using this approach to help people with severe anorexia nervosa. Now it's called integrated enhanced cognitive behavioral therapy or ICBTE. It was created by a doctor in Italy and its use by Oxford Health NHS Foundation Trust builds on existing NICE guidelines that are here in the UK which say that people with severe eating disorders should be offered evidence-based psychological treatment, including enhanced cognitive behavioural therapy. Now, this new approach is integrated cognitive behavioural therapy, and that builds on the traditional approaches. Those traditional approaches can often be very variable,

there can be little or no step down after care. And when people are discharged from hospital, some of them can still be very malnourished. So instead, this approach involves a 13-week programme of treatment as an inpatient. And during that stay, the patient has to agree to end that malnutrition and reach what is deemed to be a healthy weight. Then they start seven weeks of day treatments and finally a further 20 weeks, which is 40 sessions to a week, of outpatient psychological treatments. Dr Agnes Ayton is the psychiatrist who led the team. In the last six, seven years in Oxford, we have been working on implementing integrated CBT, which was developed between the Oxford Department of Psychiatry and Dr. Dalla Grave in Italy, applying the CBT treatment

model. We are talking about people who are not able to respond to outpatient treatment, who may deteriorate to a life-threatening situation, which requires inpatient treatment. So you started a pilot, didn't you, in Oxford to find out whether there was any significant difference in the outcomes? What we found at those patients, we had 70% of those patients, 7-0, who remained a healthy weight a year after discharge, and they didn't have any significant eating disorder behaviors. So I think that's probably the closest we can say that people are in full remission or in recovery. Obviously, anorexia can be a long-standing illness, so I don't want to overstate.

However, if we compare that with treatment as usual, which usually includes an eclectic approach, a partial weight restoration, so the mean discharge BMIs are still within the malnourished range and inconsistent aftercare, then the recovery rates are only 5%. So I think, you know, this is a really exciting opportunity for other units to revise their existing practices and build on existing good practice guidelines such as NICE and we would be very happy to share our experiences around implementation with with other teams if people are interested. That's Dr Agnes Ayton. Well I've been to meet someone who's part of that 70% success rate. She's a woman called Lorna Collins who helped co-produce the paper published in the Journal

of Eating Disorders and who says this approach saved her life. Good girl, Foxy. Good girl, Foxy. Come on then. We're on a little cottage on the edge of a farm in the Chiltern Hills. Lots of dogs. Lots of dogs. It's a bit noisy, I'm afraid. Sorry. And on my windowsill, you can see lots of rosettes and photographs of me riding horses over the years. So in a way that represents my past. And I'm sitting at my desk where I have my computer and here I work.

I'm doing lots of things. I'm writing books for children, books for adults. My latest book is dark humour for adults. It's satire. And I've just written a book for kids, which I've also illustrated. So this is a very busy, action-packed life at the moment. In essence, what I'm trying to do is I'm just trying to live my life, that's how I term it, because I've lost an awful lot over the years and now I'm trying to simply follow my dreams. When I was 18, I had a severe brain injury falling off a horse and I was in a coma and I woke up eventually with no knowledge of who I was, no memory from my childhood, no memories at all.

My eating disorder developed as a method of trying to take back control. You say that basically over the next 20 years, you were in and out of hospitals. You've been in that revolving door for you know two decades yes so my head injury was in 2000 and then my first mental health admission was an acute psychiatric ward and then an eating disorder ward and then my final admission was in 2018 what sort of treatments were they trying during all of those admissions and maybe things in the community as well to try and help you recover from the eating disorder? But they didn't try and help me recover from the eating disorder. Often they said I, you know, wasn't, didn't meet the requirements to have help for an eating disorder. I wasn't thin enough, for example.

There was no therapy that I was given as such. It was just, you reach crisis, you're about to die, so you're admitted to hospital. I was admitted to hospital. Stay in hospital for a short amount of time, discharged eventually, and the whole thing happens again. I was tube fed many times, restrained and tube fed. I tied to a bed in a padded cell, you know,

because I was trying to take my own life i was um very unpoorly and self-harming and doing terrible things to myself including starvation but when when they said i didn't meet the requirements to be admitted to an eating disorder ward because my weight wasn't low enough i saw that as an excuse to lose more weight. So before long, I met the criteria, but I was almost dead. You know, I was dead walking. What treatment did you then come across? How did that happen? It's ICBTE, integrated CBTE.

It's basically like a piece of research you do yourself with the team about your illness. You go through the history, why it it's come where it's come from then what it what's how it what it's like now and how you can then invent a future without it the integrated cbte is the new model is about carrying that on in different parts of treatment so as a an inpatient a day patient and an outpatient so you're talking to therapists here you're talking to nurses you're talking to psychiatrists yes so they have a multi-disciplinary team and so people from on the team of nurses etc um all like health care assistants nurses therapists different groups therapists um psychiatrists um doc different kinds of doctors all on the team and they're all speaking the same language on the same

page um working on the same model and that had never been like it'd never been like that before I tested out things that I found really difficult for example eating fear foods or um try going to places that I found stressful or doing things that made me feel anxious. I would test those things out, and then I'd go back to the team and say, hang on, this is how I've done, can we discuss this? So you test things out, and then you find what works. Would you not have got to the same stage just because of time passing?

And would the outcome not have happened anyway? Would your improvement not have happened anyway? No, I'd be dead. I can say that categorically, matter? No, I'd be dead. I can say that categorically. Matter of fact, I would be dead. I had no hope. I lost everything. And the only coping mechanism I had was to destroy myself.

And that's what I believed I had to do, because nothing was working. That was the only option I could see. And Agnes and the team and this ICBTE model gave me hope. And I would like to give everyone else hope. That is Lorna Collins speaking to Carolyn Atkinson. Thanks to Carolyn. Tomorrow, Wednesday, July the 12th, an eating disorders roundtable has been held at Westminster.

MPs and peers from across political parties are attending, including the Conservative MP for Devices in Wiltshire, Danny Kruger. Welcome to the programme. The integrated CBTE, as it's called, is not available to everyone, as Carolyn made clear. Do you think the new approach should be taken up by other trusts? Well, it sounds really encouraging. And I was very struck by what Lorna was saying there, because I know from my work as an MP in Wiltshire, how many people struggle first to get help bed and to get the intensive treatment they need

and then subsequently crucially they need help to recover and it's not enough just to get people back to a healthy weight they need to be supported as well as the rehabilitation phase and what I've heard from this report and I know about it because Oxford Health you've just been hearing from operator clinic in my constituency near Marlborough, the Cotswold House unit, which has some of these treatments. Not enough of it because we just know there's so much demand. But this is the right approach. We need to have an integrated system that supports people, particularly after the acute phase, to recover over the long term. I mean, the governments say that they're improving eating disorder and mental health services, investing almost £1 billion in community mental health care for adults with severe mental illnesses, including disorders by 2024. Is that enough? Well, it is true. And there's a lot of money going into mental health services for young people and

for adults, over £2 billion going into mental health just in this last year, in addition to what's there already. And there's an extensive programme of support for schools. I mean, this early identification and prevention agenda is so important, and the government is providing mental health leads in all schools, and mental health support teams, professionals are now rolling out as well. So there is a recognition in government of the need to do this. Of course, I'd like to see more. I'd like to see our communities stronger at spotting the early warning signs. And. Of course, I'd like to see more. I'd like to see our communities stronger at spotting the early warning signs. And as I say, I'd like to see more support post the acute phase. But really, we need

to undertake this research to roll out what works. And it's intuitively, obviously true that an integrated approach where we combine the different sorts of support both uh clinical and social because particularly mental health conditions it's so important what the relationships and the support that are provided as it were informally and in the community on in the family we need to get around people who suffer from eating disorders in both a professional and a relational and a social way so it's not just about it's not just about government. It is about all of us. But yes, government can and should be doing as much as it possibly can.

Let us see where it goes. Danny Kruger, Conservative MP for Devices in Wiltshire. Thank you very much. If you need any support or information, please contact the BBC Action Line. You'll find a link on the Woman's Hour website. I want to turn next to Theo Clark, the Conservative MP for Stafford,

who gave birth last August to a daughter. She had a 40-hour labour, a third-degree term, and she needed a two-hour operation and was in hospital for a week. She is working closely with the Birth Trauma Association and recently met with 11 other mums in Parliament

who have suffered horrendous experiences giving birth. To help other women avoid these experiences, she's setting up an all-party parliamentary group on APPG on birth trauma, and it will be launched tomorrow. Theo is in studio with me to share her personal story. Can you describe your experience of giving birth and what happened to you afterwards and welcome. Thank you Nuala, it's a pleasure to be here. So I gave birth to my beautiful daughter last summer after a very long

labour. And I had these fantastic ideas that my baby would be born. She'd start miraculously crawling up my chest and start breastfeeding. And we'd have this wonderful first hour of bonding everyone had told me about. But what actually happened was I suffered a third degree tear, started bleeding very heavily after delivery and was separated from my daughter and rushed into the operating theatre where I had an operation for two hours without general anaesthetic. So I was actually awake in theatre. Because you'd had an epidural, is that correct? Exactly. So I wasn't allowed to have that on top. And I can tell you it was the most distressing experience of my life. I really thought I was

going to die. And obviously being separated from my daughter, just having had such a huge labour was very distressing. It must have been very difficult. I'm sure you're worried about that bonding moment as well afterwards. What support or aftercare did you receive? Well, that's really the reason why I'm setting up this new campaign in Parliament, is I really don't feel that the aftercare is there for mums. In my particular case, I was moved out of the delivery suite to a side room. I was on my own. I was hooked up to a drip. I had a catheter. I was paralysed from the waist down. And my daughter was screaming in the cot next to me.

And I pressed the emergency button button expecting to have some help. And the lady came in and said, and I quote, not my baby, not my problem, and just walked out and left me there. I can't imagine how that must have felt. Yeah, well, I was in a huge amount of pain. I was feeling extremely vulnerable and I was really quite shocked at that attitude. And that's really why I decided to meet with some mums recently in Parliament to hear from them, their stories and the experiences that they've had. And I've discovered that aftercare for mums is extremely patchy across the UK. It really varies by trust. So what are you trying to do to find out first what the other stories are?

Absolutely. That's the first step. So firstly, there is no group currently in Parliament dedicated to birth trauma. So the first step is tomorrow to launch this new cross party group with MPs from across political parties to come together and focus on this issue. And we're really asking for mums across the UK to write in with their stories so that we can identify where are the failings in your aftercare and where can we help. And write to your office. Absolutely. Write to me directly at my parliamentary office. You're already hearing some. Yes, absolutely. So I did a sit down interview for the first time on the weekend and shared my story.

And I think within a few hours, I'd already had several hundred emails coming in from mums across the UK. And just to share a couple of things that I've been told. For example one mum was told when she was bleeding on the floor having just given birth to be more careful. Another mum who had Indian heritage basically had a haemorrhage because of the colour of her skin they didn't realise what was happening. Another mum was told not to have more pain relief, because if she did, it would bankrupt the NHS. So these are the type of stories that I'm collecting. And I'm really hoping that we can push the government to do more. I was delighted that the Prime Minister did

have the Women's Health Strategy launched last year. But having read through it, birth trauma is only mentioned once, just those two words, birth trauma. Do you think there's a taboo around speaking about when you have a horrendous birth experience absolutely i mean the amount of people who've written to me just in the last few days to say oh i didn't tell you this at the time but actually this is what happened to me and things like you know one in five women will be um anal incontinent after giving, something nobody talks about. We have spoken about it just a few weeks ago on Women's Hour, but the response was huge. Absolutely.

And for example, I wasn't even aware that you could have injuries in childbirth. I mean, a third degree tear, which is what I suffered from. I'm still having to attend the perineal clinic nearly 10 months after giving birth to my baby. And I was certainly not aware that that could even happen from a vagina delivery. Just before I let you go, so your birth trauma group will go ahead and we'll see the progress you make. I just want your thoughts briefly on a review that's to take

place into failings in maternity care in hospitals in Nottingham. This comes after dozens of baby deaths and injuries at Nottingham University Hospital Trust and NHS Trust. What do you think the review can realistically achieve? Well first of all it was so harrowing to hear some of the stories of the women and families affected in Nottingham. I understand this will be the largest ever review into failings in maternity care and hospital and I note it's being chaired by Donna Ockerton who of course led the previous inquiry in Shropshire, which is the neighbouring constituency to mine. So I really hope that this review will help hospitals to make sure they're delivering safe and high quality care for all women.

And our listeners can get in touch with you, as you mentioned, through your parliamentary office, just to email you on that site, which is on your website. Thea Clark, thank you so much. Thank you. We got a statement from the University Hospitals of North Midlands NHS Trust. Anne-Marie Riley, the chief nurse, said, we'd like to apologise if Thea's experience was not up to our expected standards

and disappointed to hear she has not been able to raise her concerns with us until now. Delivering safe, high-quality care to women and their families is always our priority and we work closely with our teams and our Maternity and Neonatal Voices Partnership to ensure we continually improve experiences for those who use our services. Thanks to all of you. You continue to get in touch, 84844. I want to turn to something completely different now.

It's a growing trend, apparently, in the wedding industry. It's to add a wax seal to your invites. If you scroll through social media, you'll see people making little round wax seals in all sorts of beautiful colours and designs. Not just bride and grooms either, apparently. Businesses are also turning to the wax seal to add little personal touches to their items.

But what is it that makes wax sealing so appealing? Let's hear from Diane Wisdom, founder and designer at Heirloom Seals. She makes self-adhesive wax seals and personalised stampers. Also have Dr Elizabeth New from Aberystwyth University who researches medieval wax stamps and co-ran the Imprint Project

which used modern forensic equipment to study medieval wax seals. Diane, why now? Why is it making a comeback? Something that we do think more of medieval times. Good morning, Nuala. Yes, it certainly is making a comeback. I think it's the nod to the past.

There's something really romantic about it. So it particularly appeals to wedding industry. And yeah, the personalisation, five-star hotels castles it's it's a it's an embellishment a touch of luxury people like to add um and particularly um like alcohol packaging and luxury brands it's just the extra something and there is something um there is like a rich history there's an elegance and embellishment and kind of romantic it just adds something I guess I'm going to jump back in time

now with you Elizabeth because you're finding that seals can actually tell us about medieval women, this is Woman's Hour Yes, so good morning yes absolutely, I mean seals have been used across the world in different cultures for at least seven and a half thousand years.

So they go way beyond medieval period. In medieval Britain, they were used right across society from the very highest to the very lowest, including peasant women. Which we mightn't expect. I think of a seal as some noble woman, for example, but you found otherwise. Oh, yes, absolutely. Probably the majority that survive were owned and used by what we might call ordinary people, including a lot of women. and I who co-ran the imprint project have come across some really interesting examples, including a woman who lived in 13th century Lincoln, who Philippa discovered actually had three seals. This woman was called Bella. And as she sort of developed her mini property portfolio, she upgraded her seal. And I've come across a peasant woman called Avis from, again, 13th century Derbyshire. And she, again, had three different seals. She's married, and in the documents, she's always called wife of Roger. But on her seal, she never calls herself

that. She calls herself either daughterughter of Few or Just on One, just her first name, which is a really independent thing to do. Is it like a medieval business card? It is, but it's a lot more. Seals were used to close things up, which I think is what Diane does, but also the stamps were used to impress a lump of wax and in the middle ages it was beeswax with a bit of colour that remained intact with a document instead of the way we might sign something or use a pin or swipe a card so it had a legal and administrative

function but it was also a form of identification and representation and embellishment diane what sort of designs do you create because i was hearing of all sorts that are being used honestly anything and everything so um particularly for weddings you do a lot of initials um we do a lot of illustrations we have an in-house designer so um illustrations of anything you can imagine and we've done fingerprints you can scan your fingerprint and put it in and then a lot of logos so really detailed logos and then we've also recreated some old wax seals using 3D techniques some five-star hotels would have an old wax seal that they found somewhere

that they wanted to be able to use it nowadays so we'd create a modern version of their old design honestly anything you can think of can go onto a wax seal, they're little mini works of art. You know what I was wondering though, if people are using them

now with their wedding invitations it probably costs more does it it, to send them? To post them? No, not to post them. I haven't experienced that. The majority of our customers are in America. And what you have to do over there is hand cancel. You can't put them automatically through the machine. They need to be hand done through the machine. But yeah, but for over this side of the world, putting a postage stamp on, it hasn't cost us anymore. I just want to pop back to you, Elizabeth.

What do you make of it? Because this is something you've been studying, seeing these women that have really became part of their identity, these various seals and kind of showing their place in society. What do you make of it making a return for young women now, for example, on their wedding invites or indeed some of the industries as we're hearing? Oh, I think it's great. I mean, seals are, as Dan was saying, they're these fantastic little packages of image and text, which can say so much about the owner of the seal. And in the Middle Ages as well,

there were a whole range of images and designs that turned up on seals, a whole menagerie of animals and birds, flowers, all sorts of things. Sometimes you might not expect. Sometimes you occasionally get the odd rude image turning up on a medieval seal. Diane, I think maybe she's giving you some ideas there.

A new collection. Well, I want to thank you for talking us through the seals. We had Diane Wisdom, founder and designer of Heirloom Seals, who makes self-adhesives of wax seals and personalized stampers, and also Dr. Elizabeth New from Aberystwyth University who researches medieval wax stamps

and co-run the Imprint Project. Thanks to both of you so much for telling us about that. I need to go back to airplanes now because a lot of you

have been getting in touch with your stories and I said I would read a few more of them. Let me see. This is Suzanne. One little boy cheered us up when he managed to hoist himself up

to slap the passenger's head in front of him yelling, granddad, you're snoring again. Was it his granddad? I don't know. Here's another one from Atalanta. Under four, tolerance is required. So four years of age. Over four, badly behaved children

and lazy parents make for hell in the sky. Add entitlement and it's hideous for everyone. Entertain your own children and get them to respect other's space. And yes, I've travelled quietly with all over the world with my children.

It's very hard work. By the way, it's called parenting and it's your responsibility. What do you think of that? 84844. Here's very hard work. By the way, it's called parenting and it's your responsibility. What do you think of that? 84844. Here's another one. I'd rather be sitting on a plane close to a grumpy toddler rather than with a crowd of drunk adults. And I don't have children. They're coming in thick and fast. Fights with kids. Personally, I feel no point in complaining. Why not try and help the mum dad who's nearly always doing her best,

his or her best? I love kids and offer to hold the baby. I play with the toddlers. Why not be kind? It is just a short bit of your life. Keep them coming. I'll keep reading. Join me tomorrow where, in her only broadcast interview, Louise Townsend, the mother of Olivia Perks, who took her own life while at Sandhurst, speaks to me here on Woman's Hour. She'll discuss her view

there was a lack of welfare support from the Academy towards her late daughter. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Brian Cox. I'm Robin Ince. Welcome to this very professional trail for the Infinite Monkey Cage Summer Run. And this is just going to be information. We will be talking about wasps, bees, super volcanoes, mushrooms and... Sharks, ancient DNA and are we what we eat. And we'll be joined by Harry Hill. Chris Van Tilleken. Ben Wilbond.

Rachel Parrish. Dr Nguyen. And Professor Nguyen. They're very good. The new series of The Infinite Monkey Cage. If you're in the UK, you can hear it all. Right now on BBC Sounds. Do you know what?

We nearly did a really professional trailer, but then that last bit has spoiled it. I think we're going to get told off again. Yeah. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby.

It's a long story, settle in. Available now.