Woman's Hour - Folk singer Cara Dillon, Diane Abbott and racist abuse, Haiti

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Folk singer Cara Dillon joins Emma Barnett to discuss her book and a new album – Coming Home – which explores themes of family, identity and home. Host of the UK’s first ever maths summit, mathmetician Anne-Marie Imafidon talks about hosting the UK's first ever maths summit and the importance of the subject for business.Seven out of 10 candidates who've been selected to stand for the Conservative Party at the next election are men, according to new data gleaned by the journalist Michael Crick. We speak to him and the Charlotte Carew Pole, the Director of Women2Win, which aims to get more women into politics.Journalist Monique Clesca on the latest situation in Haiti, where powerful gangs have killed thousands and are using rape to "instil fear" Presenter: Emma Barnett Producer: Lisa Jenkinson Studio Engineer: Gayl Gordon

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning and welcome to the programme. Who gets heard and why, and how women's voices are heard or not, is going to form one of our discussions today regarding remarks allegedly made about the MP Diane Abbott by one of the Conservative Party's biggest donors. And we're going to reflect on how those comments, described as racist by the Prime Minister, have affected black women in Britain this week.

We'll get to that very shortly indeed. But linked in some ways is the revelation that seven in ten candidates picked by local Conservative associations ahead of the next election are men. So far. What's going on? Where are the women? The person who crunched the numbers will be here. We will also take you to Haiti and hear how women are being directly affected by the recent

surge in violence. And I'm very happy to be able to say that I can promise you some beautiful music today on the programme from the Irish folk singer Cara Dillon. All that to come. As ever, if you hear anything you wish to make your voice heard on, and I try and make as many of them as I can, and as many of you who get in touch, thank you. If you want to say your take on anything you hear the number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media at BBC Woman's Hour or email me through the Woman's Hour website. But first the MP Diane Abbott may have been unable to make her voice heard in the House of Commons yesterday trying 46 times to get the Speaker's attention. But she has an article in The Guardian today in which she claims that the Conservatives will ruthlessly play

the race card ahead of the general election and has also criticised Labour regarding alleged racist comments about her made about her by some of the party's activists. Britain's first black female MP has broken her silence after a row this week erupted when remarks made about her by Frank Hester, one of the Conservatives' biggest donors, were made public. He allegedly said Diane Abbott once made him want to hate all black women and that she should be shot. We invited Diane Abbott onto Woman's Hour this morning, but we have not heard back to that request yet. The Prime Minister has called the comments racist. Mr Hester has apologised.

But Rishi Sunak says he will not be returning the £10 million Mr Hester has donated to the Conservative Party. It's also worth reminding you as to why Diane Abbott is a former Labour MP and now sits as an independent. She was suspended by Labour in April last year after she wrote in the Observer newspaper that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people were not subject to racism all their lives. At the time, Labour's leader Keir Starmer condemned these comments, saying he could not accept the argument that there is some sort of hierarchy of racism. And he also said that what Ms Abbott had written was anti-semitic. She did apologise for her words. I'm joined now by the author of The Racial Code, Tales of Resistance and Survival, an academic, Nicola Rollock, and the UK political editor for Bloomberg, Kitty Donaldson. Warm welcome to you both to Woman's Hour this morning. Nicola, I'll come to

you in just a moment but Kitty, if I can just come to you first on the political side of this and bringing us up to date with what's going on, the latest on this. And also, I mentioned there that Guardian article. Perhaps we should start with a sense of what Diane Abbott has to say

and the attacks that she has launched and her response. Absolutely. So Diane Abbott, of course, is a massive trailblazer, the first black woman in Parliament when she was elected in 1987. But she's not been an uncontroversial figure, let's put it that way. And this morning, as you say, Emma, she's in The Guardian saying that the Tories are going to play the race card in the run up to the election.

I think she's probably borne out by that. Michael Gove's up in the House of Commons in about 20 minutes talking about extremism, in which he will be decrying Islamism, but also far right extremism as well. So I think very much it's at the centre of the cultural wars we're seeing, which will typify the election campaign if the Tories don't want to campaign on the economy. Thank you for that. It's a potted summary, I suppose, of a bit of the state of the political debate at the moment and also what Diane has said. There's a few other parts that I'll refer to in just a moment.

Nicola, good morning. Good morning, Emma. Thanks for making the time to talk to us because I imagine for you as someone who has lived and breathed some of this as a black woman

but also studied it and written about it. We've talked about your work before and I've read your book. It must have been a hard week. You know, the Frank Hester affair or Hestergate, as you might call it, really, to my mind, epitomises the very poor state of race relations in the UK. And that's underscored by a really pitiful lack of political leadership on the issue. I think what the alleged comments are abhorrent. They are clearly and without dispute, racist, misogynistic, and they incite violence against women. I think, Emma, and really, you know, talking more broadly to listeners, I think that we really have to pay attention to the ways in which politicians and our government reacted to this issue. And they started off by describing this as unacceptable. Well, that word in and of

itself is unacceptable. It downplays, it trivialises, and indeed it gaslights all of us, but in particular black women, when it comes to a really disgraceful issue. The comments have then moved on. You're right to remember the first response. And you're right in that recollection of it, to say that they are racist by the Prime Minister. And then there was also the Business Secretary, Kemi Badenoch's response. She was actually the first cabinet minister to break ranks, you know, and said that Hester's alleged comments were racist. She put it in a tweet. She said, Diane Abbott and I disagree on a lot, but the idea of linking criticism of her to being a black woman is appalling. It's never acceptable to conflate someone's views with the colour of their skin.

And Kemi Badenot, for a lot of people, is the future of the Conservative Party. She would be the first black woman to run it should she get there. I know we're not at that point. You're smiling, Nicola, but you're talking about the quality of leadership. Let's talk about, I suppose, her leadership there and that response, but also that view of her maybe as well. Well, let me say this. I welcome Kemi Badenoch's comments.

I don't think that any black person, let alone black woman, who is politically minded and understands the complexities of race and racism will be sitting back in their chairs relaxing because of Baden Ott's comments. And I say that because this is the first time that we have heard her speak out explicitly about racism. If we go back but four years to 2020, when she was commenting in Parliament following the murder in the US

of the African-American George Floyd and the subsequent protests around Black Lives Matter. She made a series of quite worrying and dangerous comments about a particular theory to do with the race that was incorrect and, I would argue, divisive. But, Emma, if I may, I also want to go back to the government's response. You're right to say that they moved on from that position but it took them more or less all day to move on

to their position and they only made the comment our prime minister only made the comment that the the alleged remarks were racist and wrong he failed to address and name the fact that they were also misogynistic. He failed to name and address the fact that they also incite violence against women. This is at a time, this is at a time when we are seeing an increased number of racist incidents. This is also at a time when we have had two significant reports in the Andrea Leany review and also the case review a year ago that have gone to length to highlight misogyny and violence against women. And of course, we have to mention the increased concerns by MPs themselves in terms of their safeties. So my view, my very clear view, Emma, to listeners this morning, is that our government has not gone far enough to condemn these alleged remarks by Frank Hester. Kitty, I'll come back to you in a moment,

giving us a political take on that. But I should say as well, Kemi Badenoch is not here to respond to your characterisation of her remarks. And I should also say, we, I have invited her onto this programme many, many times. I do hope she will take me up and this programme up on that invitation, not least because she's not just the business secretary,

but she is the Minister for Women and Equality. So I do hope we can share this conversation from this morning and see if that will prompt that to become a reality because it has yet to materialise despite several attempts. I'm sure, I hope we can make that happen because I think it is important to make sure we hear from people, especially with that particular brief on that characterisation by Nicola Kitty, coming to this context, which Nicola laid out about the Casey Review reports that are going on and increased concerns about MPs' security at a volatile time in geopolitics right now. What do you make of that and whether Rishi Sunak is reading the room and his decision or not

to not specifically address the female elements of those comments. Absolutely. And I think Nicola's right to point to the misogynistic nature of the comments, which weren't addressed in Parliament. And in fact, I was speaking to a female minister on the morning of the when the story broke. And she just said, oh, it's just so tiring having to constantly fight number 10 to get them to condemn racism and misogyny. And, you know, there's been a lot of criticism of how number 10 have handled this. And whether, you know, Rishi Sunak should actually come out on the front foot, first of all. And also by not handing back the money, the Tories have put themselves in a difficult position because they have to keep defending why they won't hand back the money. Sorry, go on, carry on, please.

No, I was just going to talk about Diana quickly and say that I was chatting to someone in Labour this morning and there's a sort of question mark over whether she would be allowed back into the party and some very senior people have had now set studies including Harriet Harman and Annalisa Dodds saying she should be let back in. She's been suspended for nearly a year over these comments in the letter to the Observer but But actually, talking to people in Labour, they point out that she's retweeting anti-Semitic tropes even five days ago. So the chances of her being readmitted to the party

that Keir Starmer's tried to distance entirely from the Corbyn years for its anti-Semitism, the chances of her being let back in are quite slim. It's an important part of the story, this, Nicola, because of why, to remind people, as I did, and Kitty there saying a bit more recently, as to why she doesn't sit, Diane Abbott, with her own party anymore.

You in your book have looked at the racial code as you describe it. You've talked about this. You've studied it. And Keir Starmer criticised her remarks because he, in the anti-Semitic part I mentioned, but also about there shouldn't be a hierarchy of racism. And I just, I wondered, you know, in this week when we're talking about this and we're also thinking about, I suppose, what brings to mind when you hear if she will be let back in or not is forgiveness. You know, what we accept as apologies, how we accept them. Do you have anything to say on that? Well, I think, you know, I don't condone at all the very problematic remarks that Diane has made in the past. And I've not seen recent comments that Kitty's spoken to. So let me be clear on that first point. I think that what all of this speaks to, Diane's comments, past comments, the current dilemma that we are facing is a real lack of maturity and sophistication in we're comfortable about, but it is the case that

some forms of racism, we don't think about racism in the singular, that it manifests in different ways for different groups according to their faith and so on. But it is the case that some issues are more readily taken up and discussed and others are not. And I think it's a shame this week is that what we've seen is a particular form of anti-Black female racism, what the academic in the US, Dr. Moya Bailey, describes as misogynoir, which I know was discussed previously on Women's Hour, has been made invisible. It's been downplayed. And I would even go as previously on Women's Hour, has been made invisible. It's been downplayed. And I would even go as far to say, Emma, that there has been institutional gaslighting on the matter. So to go back to my earlier point, there is unfortunately, it doesn't bring me any comfort to say it,

but certain issues are prioritised around race and racism at particular moments. There is, if you will, and if I can name the shot, there's a kind of Woolworths pick and mix attitude to race and racism, in that we pick out the bits of it that are palatable to us at any given moment. One of the quite tedious lines that's come out repeatedly in Prime minister's questions was you know what i'm a south asia the first salvation prime minister we have a diverse in quotes uh cabinet and this really presents a quite simplistic simplistic narrative and uh of racial progression without looking at the wider complexities and indeed challenges. To the point, which I think is interesting in itself on how we have this discussion, which is, as we're having it, trying to reflect that as well.

And to Kitty's point there about some recent tweets regarding Diana, but this programme hasn't seen them either, but it's interesting to hear about that discussion of what's going on about her potential readmission to the Labour Party. Just very, very briefly, Nicola, I also wanted to just make sure we channeled something else here, which was that Diane Abbott said she was not surprised

by the comments. Can you just say something on that? Because I think there's something important in that. Well, yes. So she said she's hardened to racist abuse. She's upset, but not surprised. I think that speaks to the ways in which these issues are quite normal for black women, for many black women, I should say. But where do we have the space to have the conversation about it?

I think it's unfortunate. I think it's a shame that both political parties, and let me be clear, this is an issue for both main political parties and wider society, that they're not taking issues of race and racism seriously. And the consequence of that is that you have someone like Diana Abbott, notwithstanding her own failures and challenges on these issues, does not feel heard. And the result is that she does not feel surprised. I think it's atrocious. Nicola Rollock, the author of The Racial Code,

Tales of Resistance and Survival and an Academic. Thank you for talking to us this morning. And the UK political editor for Bloomberg, Kitty Donaldson. Thank you for putting to us this morning. And the UK political editor for Bloomberg, Kitty Donaldson, thank you for putting us in the picture. So some of your messages coming in, talking about strong responses to that and also some of the emotions. I'll come back to those more, perhaps,

as you digest that as well, if I can. But to something else completely, something about your mind, but how you're using it, perhaps, for good. Love it or loathe it, it's difficult to get by in life without at least a bit of maths. You could argue maths has never been more important, the understanding of it being deployed to analyse things from climate change through to understanding the pandemic, or how to protect our national security at organisations

such as GCHQ. Research has shown there's been a 50% increase in jobs requiring advanced maths, with businesses prioritising graduates who studied the subject at university. What is being done to meet this demand? How do female students fit in? That's been on the agenda this week at the UK's first ever Maths Summit, which is why we're bringing it up now.

We're joined by the mathematician and founder of the Stemettes, Dr Anne-Marie Imafidon, who was the host of this and joins us now. Good morning. Morning. Good morning, Emma. Thank you for being with us. A math summit, is that as fun as it sounds? Oh, even more fun. Fun and more.

We were calling it kind of unofficially, it was nicknamed the Glastonbury of mathematics. Oh, I should have had maybe gives you the sense yeah the sense of fun that we did have on the day um why do we need it though because there there is a need isn't there there is a need um and and there are so many the list is is very long actually for for why it was it was needed for us to pull this summit um together there are so many folks across society that have their relationship with maths. We've got the learned societies, we've got industry, we've got academia.

There are so many different stakeholders that have a stake, right? And all of us engaging with mathematics as a subject and the mathematical sciences in their broader sense. But we don't always pull in the same direction. And so there's something about, you know, pun intended, I guess, strength in numbers. We had a maths manifesto that we talked about as well. But ultimately,

maths is not just for mathematicians, it's for society. There are a lot more folks who are mathematicians that haven't been able to step into that sense of purpose and that truth. And there's a lot that we can and should be doing about it to ensure that maths is accessible to the majority of folks. Rishi Sunak's plans to make maths compulsory up until A-level, I think I'm getting that right, will require, I'm sure, the support that it needs within the teaching community. But will that help? Do you welcome that? Because you've been talking to politicians. I think what would help is a bit more bolstering for the teaching community as they are. You know, I think that he's definitely within his power to ensure that, you know, being a teacher

is something that's not as fraught as it has been and has become in recent years, that they are fully resourced, that they are fully supported, but also that we have the structures in place that means that teachers can teach and don't have to go over and above that. And I think that's just as important as saying that everyone should do maths until 18. You can't do that teach and don't have to go over and above that. And I think that's just as important as saying that everyone should do maths until 18. You can't do that if you don't have the teachers to teach it. Do you agree, though, that everyone should do maths until 18? I'll get to women in a minute and female students,

but do you actually think that's good? Because there was a debate about that, whether it was very old-fashioned, whether it wasn't recognising other talents and skills that people have, and whether you really need it. So everyone needs maths. Everyone needs maths beyond 18. And so, yes, everyone should be doing maths until 18, whether it's the same maths, whether it's that one curriculum maths.

You know, we had core mathematics introduced a couple of years ago, and the uptake and the availability of that has been really poor. But you'll have seen in the response when the first set of headlines came out from Rishi'sishi's desk that, you know, so many folks, well, you know, you didn't teach this, you were teaching me Pythagoras, and no one taught me about taxes, right? Well, no one taught me about, you know, all of the other fields that we get to see maths applied in. And so everyone does need it. We're in an increasingly technological world. We're in this fourth industrial revolution, so much is changing. Having that numeracy or that statistical literacy is imperative if you're going to survive in the world that we're in now. If you're going to understand the world around you, have the agency and be able to just understand what's going on around you.

Everybody did need that and we need it beyond 18. I suppose it's that curriculum that it brings to mind and whether you need that. As you say, if it's that type of thing or it's something else that that moves on. But curriculum changes are also notoriously slow in this country. And, you know, lots of things still hasn't and haven't been updated. How are the numbers of female students and their relationship with maths at the moment? Where are we? So mathematically, you know, we're in we could be in a much better place.

So as you mentioned, I'm founder of Stamets. We were at the House of Commons last week, actually launching a new white paper on curriculum reform that we'd like to see, that would help boost, I guess, the number look at STEM, so science, technology, engineering and maths, and also STEAM, including art and design in there, because that's where the true heart of innovation is. And we shouldn't be pitting the subjects against each other, actually, especially in formative years. But when we look across the curriculum, you know, when we look at science at GCSE and A-level, there are 14 men mentioned in the curriculum, only one woman. When we look at computer science, engineering and mathematics, we've got, you know, three, two and one men and not a single woman mentioned. And I think there is something about, you know, the uptake of girls, young women and folks who aren't young men in the subject and ensuring that they can see themselves reflected and can also understand that you don't have to be part of this narrow stereotype right or that narrow archetype that we have of who does mathematics and so I think it is important for us to to kind of reflect on that when we look at you know the proportions of young women and stepping in choosing

these subjects and are the numbers significantly different between the number of women and girls who go on with maths versus men so they they are different. Maths still remains across both genders, the most popular subject, but they are different. And I think the other thing is to look not just at kind of A-levels and GCSEs, but look further up the ranks. So if we look at, you know, undergraduate admissions, if we look at postdocs, right, if we look at the, you know, seniority as well in the institution, those numbers do really fall off quite dramatically. And so it is something that, you know, even if they are choosing it, which is important, and I know that because that's the work I do, you know, very early on, because these are decisions that you make at

13 and at 18 that get locked in for the rest of their life. I think it is important as well that we're retaining those women that do step into maths within the field. I remember being told off by Carol Vorderman, full stop, that was an experience, because I did once say the thing that you should never say in front of perhaps yourself as well and Carol Vorderman. Don't say it, don't say it. I'm not going to say it, that I didn't have the healthiest relationship

with the subject myself at school, despite in the end actually doing all right in it. But I think it still, does it still suffer from that view that people can recoil from maths? They have a reaction. Of course it does. And we discussed this at the summit. Right. You know, so much of this, you know, a lot of the conversation we talk about the curriculum and what's happening kind of pre-18. But, yeah, this this is a lifelong journey. We're always supposed to be continually learning in a changing world. And I think that what frustrates me the most about that notion is, you know, I get to meet lots of folks and have lots of these types

of conversations. And I've never met anyone that says, I don't listen to music because of the experience I had with my music teacher at school. Yet with mathematics, it's almost as if the only space that we've engaged with maths is in the classroom that we can recognise. And so that relationship is something that follows us on long beyond, you know, even the lifespan of our mathematics teachers. And it's frustrating because it puts a lot of pressure on maths teachers, right? Often you'll have 30 children in that classroom, you know, their relationship with maths will be different and should be different, how they learn, how they understand it should be different and will be different. But can you reflect that? Do you have the resources and the system to be able to reflect that for them?

I'm really sorry. I was just going to say, we're slightly pushed for time, but I wanted to just quickly say, what is the equivalent of listening to music for engaging with maths when you're older, having a nice glance over some quadratic equations or what's the equivalent later in life that we could prove to you we feel better about it, those who perhaps don't.

I tell you what, so we kind of spoke about this yesterday. When that seven-day moving average, right? Do you remember that? Do you remember that as a concept that folks kind of explored? I think I've blocked it out, but carry on. Have you? But we were all obsessing and we were all looking, right, and exploring what do these numbers mean, right?

Okay, that's how it's moved and this is a seven day average rather than just the average we've done at school maths is everywhere if you're building a rest if you're coming together with a recipe if you are exploring ai models and playing with them like maths is everywhere in the building that you have in the deal or the offer or the discount that you're trying to engage with in business and your taxes in your bank account maths is everywhere and there'll be there's all manner of things that continue to pop up, even the discussions we have around pensions and compounds. And the fact that if that's not going into your pension

when you're of working age, what does that mean for you later on? Good examples. Good examples. And I know it's everywhere, but I wanted the equivalent of the song so we could have that. And you've done that.

And thankfully, you also haven't done to me what Martin Lewis used to do to me on my Five Live programme, which is ask me some live maths on air because that wasn't a great time in my life. I'm not going to lie. You should be allowed to do maths in private

and you should be allowed to do slow maths, which I think was brilliant at the summit. Anne-Marie, please. We were talking about, it's not just the speed, right? It's also the quality of what you're doing. So take that listeners. Slow maths. All right. I like this. We're rebranding. Thank you very much. I would love to be taught by you. Dr. Anne-Marie Imafidon, the founder of the STEMET and a

mathematician and all that in between that we've just discussed. Thank you. I'm Sarah Treleaven. And for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth.

How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Now, I wanted to just let you know at this point in the programme before we get to our next item about a discussion we're going to be having next week on the programme about baby loss certificates,

which were, you may remember, we covered it at the time of the woman who campaigned for them. They were introduced in England last month in February for parents who've lost a baby before 24 weeks of pregnancy. After that programme, I actually went and applied for my own, having had a miscarriage, and I've received it. And it's quite a thing to see. It's an official piece of paper. It's something you put in your family file. It records your loss officially. And that in

itself is really powerful. I have to say, it's very, very powerful indeed. It's meant a great deal to me. And I wanted to hear from you if this was something that perhaps you were considering and maybe you've also applied. maybe it wouldn't work for you. And that's also worth hearing. Do get in touch if you'd like to have your story as part of our discussion next week. It would be really generous of you if you could. You do not have to put your name forward. You can text with your message or your contribution on 84844.

You can email us at the programme on the Women's Hour website or on social media. We're at BBC Women's Hour. Now, Haiti's Prime Minister, Ariel Henry, has agreed to resign following weeks of mounting pressure and increasing violence in the Caribbean country. This comes after regional leaders met in Jamaica on Monday to discuss a political transition. Mr Henry is actually stranded in Puerto Rico at the moment after being prevented by armed gangs from returning home. He said his government would resign following the installation of a transition council. The Prime Minister's resignation has been one of the key demands of the heavily armed gangs that have recently tightened their grip on the capital, Port-au-Prince. These gangs have attacked the main prison to help thousands of inmates escape,

as well as targeting police stations, the international airport and port. But what about the women in all of this? What is happening in this upheaval? And how is violence intersecting with their lives and affecting them? The journalist, writer and feminist activist Monique Klesker, who lives in Haiti, joins me now. Monique, can you tell us some more? Good morning. Welcome to the programme.

Good morning and thank you for the invitation. It is a classic case of women's bodies being weapons of war. And this is a war of the gangs against the population. And if I can just share a data set, in 2023, there were about 5,500 reported rapes. And when I talk about that, you can imagine if they are reported, the numbers that are not reported usually are even higher than the ones that are reported. And that is a 49 percent increase over 2022. So that means the numbers are increasing, the violence is increasing. And as they gain more territories, then there are more violence, gender-based violence against women. There is another aspect also to this.

There are several other aspects. One of them is that girls also are victims of this. And we have cases of 11, 12-year-old girls who are getting pregnant from the sexual violence. So that is one aspect. Women also are getting pregnant, but the fact of girls that young. Another significant aspect in this war against women's bodies is the fact that a lot of the rapes are done, they are gang rapes, and they are done in front of women's companions, in front of women's children. So the trauma is even more significant in that case.

And some of them happen during massacres. Some of them happen just in the regular everyday activities. And this must be, these are extreme violations of human rights. Another aspect of this also is the fact that girls and women in the urban slum areas, high density areas where the gangs are. Some of them are sexual slaves because they have no choice in the fact that they must comply or else die or else must leave those areas. And then you have the displacement, girls and women, or in the majority of women of the population that is being displaced by the gangs. So when the gangs attack an area, the people leave. And in massive numbers, there are about 400,000 displaced people in Haiti, and the majority of them are women. So this is a war against our bodies. This is a war against us. So there is huge trauma. There are huge consequences to this.

So we are saying, no, this should not be happening. And we are resisting in ways that, with our voices, where women's organizations are resisting. And we are crying for help because a lot of funds will be needed, a lot of help, psychological help, etc., will be needed for the women and girls who are victims. Yes, and it's incredibly important and powerful to hear you share that very difficult account this morning. Thank you for being able to do so, because as well as all of those details and horrific insights, there is this other element in Haiti where women are often the breadwinners as well, which can make them vulnerable in another way as well that you're talking about. Absolutely, because the economy, particularly the informal

economy, really depends on women who are market sellers, who are factory workers. And that has also an effect on that because they can't go to work. So many of them are displaced. And a lot of this crisis is also an economic one in that sense because the economic figures are in the red and they have been in the red for years, negative growth for at least four years. And there have been so many jobs lost through this

crisis. And in addition, the informal economy is one where a lot of the women, they cook at night or they cook during the day for, you know, they are urban cooks, if you say. And with now the emergency and the curfew, they can't work at night. So they are losing their jobs. They are displaced from their homes. And they cannot work at night in various areas because at six o'clock, everybody must be home. So this is a tragic situation we are living. Women's bodies, our minds, our work, et cetera, we are being brutalized.

It's a war against us also. So this is a, you know, this is a cry for help. This is a valiant cry for help because this is not a victim, you know, we are going to have to deal with a lot of the trauma of what is going on. Monique Lesker, thank you very much for your time. The journalist, writer and feminist activist who lives in Haiti, putting us in the picture there. We appreciate it greatly. I did say I was very happy to be able to make you a promise today to take your mind to a very different place, courtesy of some music and some beautiful music, because according to the music magazine Mojo, my next guest has, quote, quite possibly the world's most beautiful female voice. I'm talking about the Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, who's just walked possibly the world's most beautiful female voice. I'm talking about the Irish folk singer Cara Dillon, who's just walked into the Women's Hour studio. She won the All

Island Singing Trophy, aged only 14. She's then gone on to do many things, including countless awards, accolades, including Album of the Year at the BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards. She's also worked for Disney, singing the title song to the animated movie Tinkerbell and the Great Fairy Rescue. And now she has a book and new album entitled Coming Home, in which she brings together storytelling, poetry and song. Cara Dillon, good morning. Good morning. Get the chance to talk to you before we hear your singing voice. Thank you for being here. And you've done this in a way of writing down stories, this particular album, first of all, is that right? And then getting them to music. Yes. During lockdown, I started to write just lots of my thoughts down and scribbles of paper and took them away. And I found it very relaxing

and therapeutic. And I never had any intention of anyone ever hearing these pieces. And here we are. And I can't believe the journey that I've been on. It's about three, four years ago now and I remember reading a couple of the pieces out to Sam, my husband there on the piano and my nephew Oren and

I was kind of reading it just to see what they thought but they got very emotional and their reaction was great and suddenly the music or the poems got set to music and the words seemed to dance off the page. And, you know, it's quite personal stuff. So, you know, I think I felt very vulnerable at the time when I was reading them out and I could only have done it with Sam.

This is Sam Lakeman, your husband and partner, at the piano, the beautiful piano here in the studio, ready to play in a moment. It's always good to introduce your accompanists in full, even when the husband is involved. But they are personal. The track that you're going to play for us is Coming Home. And what inspires that?

Take us to that home where you grew up. Yeah, well, I'm from a very small town in County Derry, right in the north of Ireland, northwest. And, yeah, I grew up saturated with culture, the music, lots of storytelling, lots of traditional singing. And just great people, you know, I'm from a town where a lot happened, you know, in the troubles. And the one thing that we've got is this great sense of community spirit.

And, you know, I started to feel that as I started to travel the world and sing songs and bring lots of the local songs all over the world. And I just remember feeling incredibly homesick and incredibly proud of the people and where I've come from and on one particular occasion you know I felt so homesick that I had to like phone my father from New Zealand and just have a big chat with him down the phone and it made me feel so much better that connection being at the other end of the world but knowing I'm still there and still part of the community. So, you know, it's a special place. And you've got, talking of special places,

I mean, that's a theme in the sense of special place, special people. There's a track called The Daughter. Yeah. And you write about also your twin sons who were born prematurely, only at 26 weeks. Yes. Yeah, they came very early. We were doing a concert and I went into labour on stage. Gosh. were born prematurely, only at 26 weeks. Yes, yeah, they came very early.

We were doing a concert and I went into labour on stage. And yeah, it was very traumatic, actually. And, you know, it's like anyone who's experiencing something like really traumatic like that. You don't realise that there's a whole unit in a hospital, a NICU ward, where little babies are fighting for their lives and then suddenly it becomes your whole world and you know I wrote this piece because I was just thinking about

how much expectation we have when a baby's born and that we're all just waiting for everything to be okay and it wasn't in that particular time and I wanted to write my own story down because you know I've realised as I've gotten older

that a lot of people don't really talk very much about things like that. How does the mother feel after you leave the NICU ward and you're at home and just how vulnerable you feel. Because I should say you were able to take them back. We were after three months

so we were all a bit institutionalised for a few months but But then, you know, thankfully, I have a very happy ending to the story. They're both six foot one at the moment amniotic sac and it's supposed to be a sign of incredible good luck and good fortune for the child so yeah I remember being told this by a midwife and I just held on to that news with every fibre of my body because I just thought right this is what we need to focus on the luck and knowing that it's going to work out.

Hard to do though at that point. It is, but you're really looking for something to hold on to. And you have talked about your children illuminating your life in ways you couldn't have imagined. It's striking this week, another musician, Lily Allen, saying they've actually ruined her two children. I read that. And having children have ruined her career. And saying, you know, she wants to say, you just can't have it all.

And I suppose it's different once you are in that place with your line of work, but it can also take you to a different place. Yeah, I mean, like, I suppose Lily Allen's in a different league maybe than I am. I think with folk music, we're very lucky. We've got a great network around us, great support network.

We've got great grandparents and family who help and great childminders. We've always had that in place. And, you know, they love it. That's all our children have ever known. Our three love to see us going off and they've come with us on tour many times and I think it's nice and healthy

I hope You're hearing Cara, Cara Dillon and accompanied by Sam Lakeman Liz Hanks and Toby Thank you very much indeed I said to you our discussion would turn to some data around numbers

in politics. We've been thinking about women's voices, who gets the microphone, who doesn't. And our next conversation is a rather apt one in that context. The Conservative Party is proud of the fact and often reminds the public that it's produced all three of Britain's female prime ministers, but according to new data, its record on female representation could be going backwards.

This comes from the veteran political commentator, journalist Michael Crick, who now runs a site called Tomorrow's MPs. And according to his tally, only 30% of the prospective parliamentary candidates who've been selected to fight in winnable seats so far are women. To put it another way, seven in 10 new candidates are men. As it stands, Michael Crick's just walked into the studio. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning.

And also on the line, Charlotte Carupol, the director of Women to Win, which was co-set up by the former Prime Minister Theresa May back in 2005 to help with Conservative female candidate numbers. Charlotte, good morning to you. When this group was set up, there were only 17 female Conservative MPs, 9% of the parliamentary party that rose to 87 or 24% of Conservatives at the last, well, the election in 2019. The figures have improved, but it's slow. Would you say that? Morning, Emma. Thanks for having me on. And can I just say, first of all, that I'm here in my role at Women to Win.

So we are a very small organisation who help women who want to become Conservative MPs. I'm not here as a spokesperson for the party. But yes, so all I can say is every general election, we're improving our numbers in percentile. And I think it's just a little too early to say in the electoral cycle what the overall number is going to be at the end. But I'm delighted that we have, I've spoken to in the last four years, hundreds of smart, experienced, accomplished women who all want to become Conservative MPs and work for their communities in the country. Michael, let me bring you in at this point. How have you come up with the figures? Well, I just keep an eye on all the selections and add them up. And I mean, it's interesting, the Conservative figure is, as you said, just under 30%. Interestingly, the Liberal Democrat figure is about the same, just under 30%, even though the Liberal Democrats have of 10 of their 15 MPs are women.

So something strange has happened there. And then the Labour figure is about 46%, 45, 46%. Now, Labour already have more, again, like the Lib Dems, have more women MPs than men. It's about 52, 51, 52% in the current House. And so I think, you know, overall, the figures are going to go up. But what's interesting with Labour is that Labour had this system of all-women shortlists, you may recall, whereby they basically said, right, in these seats, men shouldn't apply, it's only for women.

And that put the figures up over recent elections. They can't do that now. Their lawyers have said that would now be illegal because they're already above 50 percent. But they still kept the figure up. And that's because they they try and insist on a woman on every shortlist. And I think that does make a difference. And various other things like in Scotland, they put seats together side by side and they pool all the members and they say right you've got to choose one man and one woman um the trouble with that has been they did that in about uh 30 30 just more than 30 seats in scotland the trouble is that it's they then say right the person of the men and the winning man and the winning woman who got the most votes gets to choose and in nearly every case the man has got more votes than the woman and got the most votes gets to choose. And in nearly every case, the man has got more votes

than the woman. And so the man has chosen the best seat of the pair. Well, it's interesting to hear what then really happens even when you get given that choice. Charlotte, to the point, I mean, this is going to be association by association level. And what is that like? You know, you've got your organisation, but in the Conservative Party, are they modern groupings? Are they modern in outlook? Are they about equality? What's your experience? Well, I think we've heard many times the phrase broad church, haven't we? I think the associations vary hugely depending on where they are. But I see at the moment are associations who are spotting talent. We've got Rebecca Paul in Reigate, Katie Lamb in Weald of Kent,

Pauline Jorgensen in Adelaide. I mean, I can list all the women we have, but I see associations who are just spotting talent. And we want to focus on helping the women, give them all the support we get to make sure that more of them are being selected. What about the ones that aren't spotting talent, though? Can we hear your views on the ones which aren't doing a good enough job?

Because you say you're not here on behalf of the party, you're here campaigning for women. I understand that. But it is important to also say when things are not working. Look, we can always do better. There's always work to be done. 30% isn't good enough. So we want to be at least 50%.

But even if we were at 50%, our work wouldn't stop, we would keep going. But the question is, what's going wrong? And I'd like your take on it, if I could. Well, we're a very democratic process. And the associations pick the candidates and the candidates. We're very meritocratic. So we don't have any positive discrimination. And the female candidates don't want any sort of positive discrimination. If we felt at all that they wanted that, then we would lobby on their behalf. But the fact is they want to make sure that when they are selected, they are selected as the very best person in the room and they can stand shoulder to shoulder with their male colleagues knowing that they're there for the right reasons. There are fewer women on the list, which means fewer people are, women are applying proportionately.

And the nature of that means that, you know, fewer women will always be selected. So all we can do is encourage women to come forward. If anyone is listening today and has ever thought about a career in politics or hasn't thought about a career in politics, get in touch with us. But we need more women coming forward. We need more women on the list. a career in politics or hasn't thought about a career in politics get in touch with us but we

need more women coming forward we know we need more women on the list and then that and that that is important and i think you know great to make that call we don't often advertise politics as a job to go into in the sense of some of the stories we hear and i'll come back to michael in just a moment but but yes okay more women and in a way though that's a job for the women you know you're asking women to put themselves forward. They've also, when they get there, got to be picked. They then also got to win. And I suppose what Michael's just spoken to there a little bit is are some of the prejudices that might be within those local areas, within those associations. So apart from women doing better at putting their hand up, is there anything you would call as women to win for the associations

to change? I think that the associations work very closely with central office and pick out the candidates that are best for them. And I think that works really well. And I think that as we go on, more role models help. And we've got such an excellent range of cabinet ministers. We've got Kemi, Lucy Fraser, Gillian Keegan, Penny Morden, Laura Trott. I mean, the list goes on. So I think that this all helps associations being able to see women in the roles so the women have a future cabinet material. So, OK, so Michael, I'll put it to you then. Is there anything you think the associations should be doing? Not least now they can't do the shortlist,

as you talked about with Labour, the numbers they're at. But there are some issues. Perhaps there are other people who give specific examples within associations and some people have described some of the practices as old fashioned. Well, I think one of the problems the conservatives have is they have a very elderly membership. And it may be that elderly members have old fashioned ideas on this. But you only have to look at the pictures when they're chosen of the new candidate.

And the people standing around them do tend to be very grey haired. But I think the other the other big problem, and this is a problem for women candidates in all parties, and the people standing around them do tend to be very grey-haired. But I think the other big problem, and this is a problem for women candidates in all parties, is the demands on candidates these days are huge. It's expensive and hugely time-consuming to become a candidate. Then when you are a candidate, you're expected to spend every weekend in the seat campaigning, going to buy elections for the party, all at your own expense. And that must surely deter large numbers of women, young women particularly, with families

and commitments. And also the requirement you've got to live in the constituency, either as a candidate or once you become an MP. That's another restriction, I think. So I think political parties have got to be a bit more tolerant and a bit more relaxed in some of these restraints, really, that there are on women and, well, indeed on candidates of all kinds, but particularly affect women. I mean, you know, for instance, in the Liberal Democrats, they have huge requirements about the number of people you must

have spoken to every month, the number of doors you must have knocked on, the number of leaflets you must have delivered. And it's just sort of an almost impossible work rate and workload that it must deter lots of candidates. How much does it cost? Well, you know, it depends where your seat is. But roughly? Well, I mean, tens of thousands of pounds, I think, in many cases. Thousands of pounds, I think, to become a candidate. There's the travel, there's the accommodation. And then once you become a candidate, you carry on doing that. And of course, when you go to the pub, you're expected to buy the round of drinks.

It keeps going. It goes up and up and up and makes it very difficult, actually, for work, even particularly difficult for working class. Yes, well, I was also thinking. Michael Critt, you're keeping an eye on this. Thanks for coming to talk to us. The website's called Tomorrow's MPs. Charlotte Carupol, the director of Women to Win, which has been associated with the former prime minister, Theresa May, also standing down this election. And we've been talking to women who are standing down of both parties actually

coming up with the numbers that are going to go. Thank you so much for your company. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Forgive us listeners for we have sinned. And we want to know why. I'm Becky Ripley. And I'm Sophie Ward. And we're here to tell you about our new podcast series. Seven Deadly Psychologies. Now available on Seriously from BBC Radio 4. So, ready? Born ready.

Where we take a cold hard look at the psychology behind each of the seven deadly sins. We shouldn't discard them. We should ask ourselves what they mean. It's this idea that if you give in to your lusts, that you are animal-like. We have to let our minds have time to free wheel. Finding empathy is probably the best tool

to manage anger. To hear the whole series, just search Seven Deadly Psychologies on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of on BBC Sounds. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in.

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