Woman's Hour - Forced adoption, Queen Elizabeth II's outfits exhibition, Indigo Reign

Episode Date: April 9, 2026

The Church of England is planning to issue an apology for its role in forced adoption, according to a draft seen by the BBC. During the 1950s, 60s and 70s tens of thousands of babies were forcibly taken from their unmarried mothers, women who had been sent away to homes run by the Church and state. The news of a potential apology comes just a fortnight after the House of Commons education committee published a report of their inquiry into the issue and called for a state apology from the Government. Anita Rani is joined by Labour MP Helen Hayes, chair of that committee, along with Diana Defries, Chair of the Movement for an Adoption Apology, whose daughter was taken away 12 days after she gave birth.The largest display of Queen Elizabeth II’s clothing ever to be staged will open on 10 April at The King’s Gallery, Buckingham Palace. The exhibition, called Elizabeth II: Her Life in Style, marks the centenary of the late Queen’s birth and includes around 200 items, about half of which are on display for the first time. It charts clothing worn in all 10 decades of Queen Elizabeth’s life, many designed by Norman Hartnell, and it spans the full breadth of her wardrobe, from couture eveningwear to impeccably tailored off-duty clothing. Ahead of the exhibition opening to the public, Anita went to meet its curator, Caroline de Guitaut, to take a tour.Once thought politically unstoppable, recently Italian voters said 'no' to Giorgia Meloni’s proposed judicial reforms in a referendum. So what does that rejection tell us about her current political position after more than three years in charge? And why, earlier this morning, did she feel the need to address the Italian Parliament? In October 2022 she became Italy’s first female Prime Minister and as of September this year she will have had the longest continuous term in office in Italy since the Second World War, surpassing the late Silvio Berlusconi’s record. Anita is joined by senior BBC European reporter Laura Gozzi and Director of the Institute of International Affairs Nathalie Tocci.Indigo Reign, formerly known as Lady MC, is one of the first female MCs in jungle music. She's just been part of a landmark moment for global music culture, bringing the "godfathers" of drum and bass, Fabio and Grooverider, to headline the first-ever jungle and drum & bass festival in East Africa, called NURAFest and it took place in Kenya. Born in prison, she grew up around gang culture and found her voice in jungle music, becoming an award-winning MC and artist, who turned disadvantage on its head. She's also the founder of the Young Urban Arts Foundation, helping thousands of young people through music. Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Andrea Kidd

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no.

I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani, and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning, Georgia Maloney, Italy's first female Prime Minister, and if she's still in office in September, she'll have been in continuous office longer than any other Italian.

and Prime Minister, including Sylvia Berlusconi. We'll be hearing about her current political position and what it means for Italy. She's one of a handful of female jungle MCs, formerly known as Lady MC, but now her moniker is Indigo Rain to reflect how she's grown and transformed as a woman. She's also the brains behind Neurofest, a drum and bass festival in Kenya. She'll be here to share her inspiring story. And I popped out of Women's Hour HQ and dropped into Buckingham Palace to see a new exhibition in the King's Gallery.

It's Queen Elizabeth II, her life in style, the largest exhibition of the late Queen's fashion. Over 200 items, including her wedding dress, coronation ground, off-duty tweeds, and a fair few headscarves. But there's also a very cool brown suede jacket that she wore time and time again for decades, as she was very much from the make-and-do and mend generation.

So this morning, what's the item in your wardrobe that you've kept, and you come back to time and time again, regardless of how fashion changes, the piece you just can't part with and love wearing. Tell me about it and tell me why you're so attached to it. Get in touch with the program in the usual way. The text number is 84844.

You can email the program by going to our website and the WhatsApp number is 0700-100-444. The text number once again, 84844. But first, the Church of England is planning to issue an apology for its role in forced adoption, according to a draft seen by the BBC. During the 50s, 60s and 70s, tens of thousands of babies were forcibly taken from their unmarried mothers, women who'd been sent away to homes run by the church and state. The news of a potential apology comes just a fortnight after the House

of Commons Education Committee published a report of the inquiry into the issue and called for a state apology from the government. Labor MP Helen Hayes is chair of that committee and she joins me now, along with Diana Diffrease, whose chair of the Movement for an Adoption Apology, whose daughter was taken away just 12 days after she'd given birth. Morning to both of you. Welcome to the programme. Helen, I'm going to come to you first, Helen. I think if you could give us an overview and a reminder of this story and why the committee and what the committee has been looking into. What we know is that over decades, more than 100,000 women, maybe more than 200,000 women,

who were unmarried and became pregnant, were forced to go to mother and baby homes from where their babies were taken from them and into adoption. And what we know is that those women faced no meaningful choice at all about what happened. They were told variously that they were unfit mothers. They were told that they couldn't mother their children. They were told that it would be better for their babies for them to be adopted. And they were coerced into their babies being adopted. We also know that in those homes and the evidence that we had was so devastating in this regard, those women faced routine cruelty and humiliation and punishment.

And one of the academics who has researched this field very extensively told us that the system that was at work could be characterized as being designed to punish women and place their babies with families who didn't have children by birth into adoption. It had no regard for the experience of those women quite the opposite. And we also know that many of the now adult adoptees who were adopted as babies under that process also experienced very significant harm as a consequence of what they went through as well. What would a Church of England apology mean? So in our report, which is addressed to the government, we comment on the fact that the Church of England has not yet issued an apology. We know that there were around 100 mother and baby homes run by the Church of England, that the church was deeply complicit in this process.

It would mean what we heard from the women who gave evidence to us, including Diana, who is here with us today, is that an apology publicly from organisations, including the Church of England and the government, who were responsible for this process, would mean that it was acknowledged that it was not them who gave up their babies for adoption, that they were done a profound wrong,

and that they were innocent in this process. They were just women who were pregnant who were not married, that is all. They were not unfit mothers, none of that is true. And to hear that as a formal apology from the organisation's responsible would make a big difference.

Diane, I'm going to bring you in here because you gave evidence to the committee. So what's your reaction to the news? I think it's very encouraging. Any apology from any organisation that was complicity in what took place not only up to 1976 but well beyond into the 1980s, would definitely make a difference by issuing an apology,

and appropriate apology is important too, because it needs to be more than just words. It must have the organisation in question, whether it's the Church of England or anyone else, they must take responsibility for what was done, and issue a raft of support measures and clarify what it is they're offering to show that they've changed their attitude,

they've changed their behaviour. And if this happens, this will really make a big difference to all the survivors. Could I just say that it wasn't just mother and baby homes? There were organisations run by churches and others that made arrangements, but some young women weren't sent away. They were hidden.

So the practice, was very widespread and it is extremely difficult to track because of poor record keeping. Can we hear a bit more about your own story, Diana, because you had your daughter in 1974 and I mentioned earlier that she was taken from you at just 12 days old after you'd given birth. Can you tell us what you went through? I gave birth in an NHS hospital where nobody spoke to me, not the staff, not the patient was nobody, so it was very isolating. How old were you?

I was 16 when I had my daughter and I was five days into my 17th year when I was taken back to London because I'd been sent away to the South Coast. I was taken back to London and I held her for two hours. That was the longest I held her because we were actively discouraged from holding our children engaging with them in any way, which is so harmful to the babies as well as some others. And when we got to the adoption agency, I was still holding her and I didn't want to let her go. And she was literally prized out of my arms and handed over. And the following week, I was sent back to school and I had to pretend everything was fine. It was very difficult.

It's heartbreaking to hear you talk about it. And I know you've had to talk about it because you have been giving your own evidence. And I can see just from looking at you how, you know, the trauma doesn't leave you. What would an apology mean to you? I mean, not just from the church. We've mentioned that at the church at the beginning, but also a state apology. There hasn't been a state apology from England yet. Not yet.

We're hopeful. What it would mean, not just to me, but to everyone affected, would be a change in the way we're perceived. It would be a vindication. Because for so long we've carried shame, we've carried the feelings of being somehow lesser beings and the sense that we've been punished and in a way we were punished just for being human.

So an apology from church, Church of England, for example, or from the state, would mean a massive difference, provided we are involved. It's very important that survivors of anything so traumatic are part of the process. And that is something that we've been very specific about. We must be part of the process of putting together an apology, agreeing measures of support. And so far, certainly with regard to our interactions with the Education Committee,

we found that people are very receptive to the things we've been asking for. And we're very grateful for being heard. Helen, your report has called for a state apology. Why does that matter? It matters because the state was absolutely complicit in what took place. We know that from historical research that has been undertaken, that there were flows of money from the state into the voluntary and religious organisations that were running mother and baby homes and placing children for adoption. But also the state set the context. So for somebody like Diana, was 16 and pregnant, there was no support.

You would have been utterly stigmatized to have been an unmarried teenage mother at that time. And that was part of the coercion that took place, that lack of support, this total disregard for the experiences of women and girls at that time. So we know that the state is complicit. The government minister, when he came in front of us to give his evidence, acknowledged that that was the case.

And that's why an apology from the government matters. It's why it's deeply regrettable that the previous government refused to acknowledge the formal role of the state in this process and said that while they were sorry for what happened, they wouldn't issue an official apology on behalf of the British state. In a statement from the government, a spokesperson has said this subordinate practice should never have taken place and our deepest sympathies are with those affected.

We take this issue extremely seriously and continue to engage with those affected to provide support. Although the children's minister, Joe McAllister, told the select committee it was actively considering issue a statement. Helen, the government is close to apologising. When do you think it's going to happen? So we took the unusual step in our report precisely because women like Diana have had to tell their story so many times over so many years that this is an apology that's long overdue. So we asked the government to respond to us within a month. So we've got about two more weeks to go from the public.

of our report to set out their process and commitment to an apology. We believe an apology should be a process, not a single event. The apology should be co-authored and co-produced with survivors so that it's an effective and meaningful apology. And it must be accompanied by a series of meaningful, substantive measures of support so that it isn't only about some words about saying sorry, but it's also about the meaningful action that women like Diana and adult adoptees as well need going forward to be able to live with the horrendous experiences that they've been put through. You mentioned that this evidence has been heard before because during the hearings from your report, one mother said she didn't understand why they had to repeat their evidence.

Can you just fill us in on what's gone before? So previously at the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which is a Joint Committee between the House of Commons and the House of Lords issued a report, I think, in 2022, that called very similarly for an apology from the British state. And at that time, the then government responded by saying that they didn't accept that the state had had a significant role. That's clearly wrong. It's not what the historical evidence points to at all. It's not what the experience of survivors point to at all. But that should have been a catalytic moment that resulted in an apology, but also we know that the governments in the devolved nations have also all issued an

apology themselves, as has the government in the Republic of Ireland. And those were also moments at which the British government should have stepped up and said, we now acknowledge the wrong and we are prepared to enter into a fulsome and wholehearted and meaningful apology. And you were also heard from the children of these women who, of course, are now adults. How different were their experiences? So their experiences vary enormously, and it's important to acknowledge that, that the experiences of adult adoptees are different. And there are some who will not particularly acknowledge harm that has taken place. But for many children who were coercively adopted, we know that as adults, they have experienced profound harms.

And they range in nature. So some children were placed in homes that were abusive. It is shocking to know that there were fewer checks on families seeking. to adopt a child than there were on family seeking to foster children during that time and no follow-up checks. So children were placed and then there was no involvement from social services really to check on the well-being of those children. But for others, their adoption was concealed from them and they only discovered that they were adopted later in life, which is a deeply fracturing and harmful experience to have in terms of your own identity. We know that children

were often told that they were not wanted by their birth families when the opposite was true, when they had mothers who would have longed to have brought them up and to have had that lifelong relationship with their babies. So the harms for adult adoptees are varied, but we are clear that they are also really significant and that they are equally deserving of an apology from the British state. Diana, you were able to reunite with your daughter when she turned 18.

Can you tell us what that was like? It was extraordinary. in so many ways. She'd actually been looking for me for a long time. She was told she was adopted from very young. And we had this sort of pull to find one another. And when we did, it was just a very positive experience. And even though establishing a relationship after so many years apart is a challenge,

we had a few years apart, we're very fortunate in that, than a lot of other people. So we've been able to build what I hope she would agree is a good relationship. It's not a mother-child relationship, but it is very warm and caring. And I feel very, very fortunate because not everybody can do that. Some relationships cannot be amended. We've had a message in from one of our listeners, Debbie, in Chichester,

said, listening to the adoption story, she said, I'd like to know the roles of the parents of the mothers and what they had in their decisions. Surely apologies begin at home too. It's so heartbreaking, she says. We were clear about that in our report as well, that this was a problem for the whole of society. It was about families saying,

we're not going to stand by our children, that you've brought shame on the family by being unmarried and being pregnant, that that was not. an acceptable thing to happen. This was a kind of complicity across the whole of society. But what we're clear about when we're talking about an apology from the British government is that it's not okay for the British government to hide behind societal norms,

that they were a part of it. They were deeply influential in societal norms, and they were also funding this process and involved in many different aspects. Yeah. What about financial comforts? compensation, Helen? So we have based our recommendations on the evidence that we received from mothers who had their children adopted and from adult adoptees. And compensation was not something that was

foregrounded in their evidence. And it isn't something that has featured in most of the other administrations that have issued an apology. What the survivors told us is that the important thing is meaningful action. Action in terms of of records and record keeping and access to records, support in terms of intermediary services for families seeking to reunite, and access to fit for purpose, dedicated mental health services to be able to come to terms and live well with what has happened to them. And there may be other measures as well, which is why this process of co-creation and co-authorship of the adoption apology is so important.

But we've based our recommendations on what the survivors told us was most important to them. Diana? Echoing everything that Helen has said so very clearly, the view that a lot of us take is that money won't fix this. The relationships have been damaged, our lives have been damaged, money is not a salve or a balm, services, support and guidance towards some kind of of reconciliation reunion and a form of healing where possible is far more important to all of us than simply a handout. It matters how we take this forward and I would say again we're

very grateful for the consideration being given to what we need. And I'm sure this will be something we'll be coming back to you but for now Helen Hayes and Diana DeFries thank you so much for sharing your story with us this morning, Diana. 84844 is the number to text and we did contact the Church of England this morning and they've said that it wouldn't be right or fair to comment but are carrying out their own ongoing detailed work to understand their involvement in the practice. 84844 is the text number. Now the largest display of Queen Elizabeth II's clothing ever to be staged will open tomorrow

April the 10th at the King's Gallery in Buckingham Palace. the exhibition called Elizabeth II, her life in style, marks a centenary of the late Queen's birth and includes around 200 items, about half of which are on display for the first time. It charts clothing worn in all 10 decades of Queen Elizabeth's life, many designed by Norman Hartnell, and it spans the full breadth of her wardrobe

from couture evening wear to impeccably tailored off-duty clothing. Ahead of the exhibition opening to the public, I went to meet its curator, Caroline DeGito, to take a tour. So Caroline, we've just walked in and what is the dress that you've chosen to begin the exhibition with? I mean, it's beautiful, but you describe it. Well, this is a beautiful heartnal, very elegant evening dress, made of gold lame, overlaid with lace, which has been re-embroidered in gold thread. And it's a piece I chose as the first thing that people will see when they come into the exhibition,

because I think it sums up everything about the skill and the creativity of London Couture in the 19th. When did she wear it? She wore it in New Zealand in 1953, quite early on, in the post-coronation Commonwealth Tour. And we have sensational images of her wearing it. She looks young, glamorous. And as I say, it sums up that atmosphere and that opulence, but also the positivity and the positivity around couture at the height of London Couture when it was really rivaling Paris. And it says Queen, it says regal.

It says fairy tale. I mean, it's the dream dress. Absolutely stunning. Perfect piece to start with. I'm in. How much choice did she have? How much say did she have in what she wore? Oh, I think for the moment of becoming an adult, she chose everything herself. I think when she was younger, there was a lot of influence from her mother, from Queen Mary and even from her father, who expressed views on certain things that she wore. Did she have a team and how big were they? Well, really at this point, she would have her own dresser and obviously a team of personal staff around her, but it was quite small. And I think what this exhibition is aiming to show is that she made her own choices and she was the one communicating with the designers. She made the decisions. And that's borne out by the wonderful archive material that we have, correspondence, invoices, sketches where she's marked them up, yes or no. and so we really see her at the absolute centre of making those choices herself.

And it was a very strong relationship that she had with those courtiers. It was very close and very personal. Okay. Goodness me. Is this the wedding dress? Yes. The actual, I know this is a great, we are here looking at her actual girls. You almost can't believe it.

Well, this is one of Hartnell's great masterpieces, of course, from November 1947. and he was originally asked to submit designs by Queen Elizabeth, so by the Princess's mother. And he took as his inspiration Botticelli's painting of primavera. He states this in his autobiography. And the idea of rebirth and renewal after the hardship of the Second World War seemed entirely appropriate. Of course, clothes rationing was still in force. So the government granted Princess Elizabeth 200 extra clothes coupons. And Hartnall talks about the struggles he had.

had, finding all the different materials, you see these beautiful pearl beads, the crystals and so on. It was really difficult to get hold of these things at the time. And the main feature really of the dress is this extraordinary embroidery, which features the Tudor Rose, very appropriate, orange blossom, and also ears of wheat signifying plenty and happiness and so on. And Hartnell describes how he sort of laid out the embroidery like a florist's bouquet. And I think that gives you a real impression. Where has it been kept all this time? So like the rest of the clothing, it was kept personally by the Queen her entire life. And then after her death, the decision was made to pass her whole archive to the Royal Collection for us to care for and to share. But which wardrobe? She had

so many homes. Do we know where this one was? Quite big wardrobes. Most of her wardrobe was kept in Buckingham Palace. Yeah. I'm smiling because I'm thinking about my mum who would absolutely love this. It's almost Indian in its design with the amount of intricate... Yes, but like sort of Zardosie embroidery. Actually, we have a dress through here which sort of replicates that technique. Oh, let's see. Oh, my goodness. Oh, showstoppers. These are real showstoppers. There are quite a few showstop. They're quite a few. I mean, the whole exigist. But, so I chose these pieces because they represent the closest we can replicate of a kind of capsule wardrobe created for one of the

Queen's tours. And in this instance, it was her tour to India, Pakistan and Nepal in 1961, which is a very long tour, sort of seven weeks, something like that. So you can imagine how many decisions she had to make about her clothing and what was going to be appropriate. And this is really where diplomacy starts to play its role. And of course, she was a past master at using her clothing to pay compliments to the country that was hosting her. And in a way to deliver those kind of subtle messages and it was really yeah this this wonderful tool to convey those those sentiments before she even spoke or had those meetings or dinners or you know state banquets and so on and I think that's something that she developed to a level that had never ever really been

done before it's so much pressure I think most women who enjoy wearing clothes and think about what they put on before they enter any room, because you know it's going to make a statement and people are going to judge you on it. I mean, the queen and the statements that she's making with her outfits and everybody was looking at her and judging her and trying to deduce what she was trying to say. She was always in the public eye from the moment she was born until the end of her life. And that must surely have been in her head all the time, thinking about how am I going to look? How am I going to present myself for this occasion or that? occasion and I think this is where that that very close working relationship between her and the

designer was really key and it was clear that that it was a two-way input it was a two-way relationship and it wasn't just the designer saying here you are here's a sketch do you like it or not and here are all the sketches pretty much from this this particular tour wardrobe this is the one for this beautiful gold and pearl dress and we were talking about that influence of sardosie embroidery which of course see that so strongly, I think, in these pieces. And this was worn at the state banquet on arrival in India. And the central motif is the lotus flower. So again, the thought process is very, very carefully thought through. Who were some of her favourite designers? Who did she go to time and time again? Well, Hartnall's absolutely key. It has to be said. He had begun this relationship in design terms

with Queen Elizabeth. And so in a sense, she inherited him from her mother. But I, I I think he produced really his finest work for her. And it's funny, one, I think, editor of Vogue at one point sort of wrote that he's in a royal cul-de-sac. He was a great designer, there's no doubt about it. But, of course, designing for the Queen requires certain constraints, restraints, and this sense of never putting a foot wrong, I think, always played quite heavily on his mind.

How much fun did you have looking through the archive? How hard was it to pick? Very, almost impossible. But obviously there are key pieces that need to be included. And I think we're looking at perhaps a few of those here. And then there are the ceremonial pieces. Yes. And you might think to yourself, well, what's that actually got to do with fashion?

But it really does. It is another element of this archive. And there are those fashion moments. So, for example, this amazing mantle of the Order of the British Empire, which is in rose, satin and double. of grey silk. This design was actually commissioned by the Queen in 1960. She approached design students at the Royal College of Art. They were all asked to submit designs. She chose this one, which was actually the design of Marianne Foll, who went on to form a really successful, quite groovy design

partnership with Sally Tuffin, and they were on Carnaby Street and the sort of swinging 60s and 70s. and so I just love this dichotomy between something that's so formal with the general output as it turned out, which was very cutting edge. And I like that she was championing young talent as well. By the way, if you want to know how exclusive our access is, behind me, we still have this outfit being steamed. What's your name? Hi, I'm Cecilia Oliver.

Cecilia, how much pressure are you under right now steaming this ceremonial gown? It is quite a lot of pressure, but it's also a complete honour to be working so closely with these incredible pieces. So we've got to talk about this next room that we've stepped into because this is the sort of, this is the queen we think about when she's off duty. A lot of tartan and tweed. A lot of tweed and tartan.

And I think that's great because it means that she recognised that these traditional production techniques, these traditional fabrics, but also that tailoring was so important. Tailoring is really the bedrock of British couture. And so it's wonderful because in here you have a real mixture, You have some couture pieces and then you have just off the peg things. So here's her burberry rain hood for when she's out riding.

So all very practical. Her riding boots. And then you have just exquisite tailoring. And that look, I think we just can close our eyes and visualize her with her headscarf and her boots or her brogues that you see here. She was a country girl, wasn't she? She loved her horses. She loved being outdoors. I mean, that's when she was happiest.

Yes, absolutely. And I think that story really comes through in these pieces. So all these items we're looking at now, were they made specifically for the Queen? Did she ever buy off the peg? Oh yes, she did. She bought off the peg. I'll show you an example over here. Okay.

If we've got time. Oh, this is great. So this is a suede jacket used, as you say, for those off-duty moments, originally purchased in the 1960s and worn and worn and worn, like so many of the Queen's clothes, constant re-wearing. Some outfits were worn more than 20 times, and that could be over several decades. See, there's something to be said for that. Even the Queen would have key pieces that she kept and wore always over the decades. Absolutely. That was really important. I think maybe it goes back to that growing up during the war, make-do and mend, things being passed on to her younger sister and lots of, we have lots of invoices for repairs. And I think the Queen really thought that clothes should last. You know, if they were well-made and she would continue to wear them, then they should remain in good condition. And headscarves.

Her skulls are very important. You all have seen on the mannequin there. We have one tied on in the way that she had her own unique way of tying her hair scarf, always in a bow at the chin, which is not what most people do. They do a knot. And that's something that's completely unique to her. Now we're seeing it in the flesh and all together. You can see how she's changed with the times. The colours are really bright. And actually, she's making real statements with each outfit. So where did that thought come from that she wasn't as stylish as her younger sister? I think it was just something that was propagated almost at the time. There have been various books written about her style, and there's always that comparison.

I personally think it's a bit unfair because I've had the great privilege of looking at all this clothing, and I see someone who was incredibly stylish. Yes, I agree, but also and still be queen, and still be the woman who's representing her nation and be stately. Absolutely, and it's a difficult line to tread, to get that right. over so many decades, I think, is an incredible achievement. And I think that's testament to her careful consideration, choosing the right designers to work with, and trusting in their skill.

Yeah, and, you know, this term fashion icon is banded around, but she really was a fashion icon. And I go to see all fashion exhibitions, and it's always exciting to see an exquisite garment up close, particularly when it's worn by somebody famous but this is someone who we've seen wear these clothes in our lifetime. So something quite magical about seeing these outfits

in the flesh knowing who wore them and having seen some of them worn. Definitely and I, you know, the process has been for me just so I wouldn't say emotional but there's definitely emotion there because we all have our memories of the queen, whatever that might be,

but to see the piece and connect that to the memory I think is something very special. And it was very special going into Buckingham Palace to see that exhibition as well. That was me speaking to the curator, Caroline de Gito, and Elizabeth II, her life in style is on at the King's Gallery in Buckingham Palace until the 18th of October.

And the Queen wasn't the only one who used to keep pieces and wear them over and over again, time and time again. You, some of you've been doing the same. I'm going to read out some of your messages. I wanted to talk about my favourite piece of clothing from my wardrobe. It's a fair-hour knitted waistcoat.

My mum bought on war when she was 19. I'm 42 and still wearing it. It happens to be quite on trend right now. My mum is always amused to see me in it every winter. I'm a knitwear designer and consider longevity in my own work. My mum had an eye for quality and still has blue high-wasted silk shorts. I love them, but sadly after two daughters can't squeeze into them. And that's from Marissa.

Thank you for your message, Marissa. And another message here is saying, I'm wearing today a jumper that my mother knitted for me when I was 16. I'm now 59. And thank you for sending me the photograph. I love looking at old photos. And a message from a male listener who said, I have a sweater that I still wear,

bought at Way Inn in Harrods in 1978. It's remarkable that it's survived, especially as friends and family have thrown it out, only to have me rescue it. It's cozy. I think there's another item in that, isn't there? The clothes that you don't want your partner wearing or the person in your family that you chuck out

and they keep bringing back. 84844. Tell me about the garment that you have had for years and yet. and we're over and over again. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. I do not want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid.

I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is creation myth. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Next.

Once thought politically unstoppable, last week Italian voters said no to Georgia Maloney's proposed judicial reforms in a referendum. So what does that rejection tell us about her current political position after more than three years in charge? And why earlier this morning did she feel the need to address the Italian Parliament? In October 2022, she became Italy's first female prime minister. and as of September this year, she will have had the longest continuous term in office in Italy

since the Second World War, surpassing the late Silvio Berlusconi's record. But who is one of the few women at the top in world politics? Well, to discuss her, I'm joined in the studio by senior BBC European reporter Laura Goetze and director of the Institute of International Affairs, Natalia Tochi, who joins us from Rome. Laura and Natalie, sorry, welcome to the programme.

Laura, I'm going to come to you first. Tell us about the makeup of the current Italian government and Georgia Maloney's political party. Who does she lead? So Georgia Meloni is the leader of the far right brothers of Italy party and she heads a right-wing coalition made up of what used to be Sylvie Berlusconi's party and the right-wing league. She has been in power since the autumn of 2022 and she is due to face elections again. year. Why did she address the Italian Parliament earlier today? What did she say? So it was quite on an unusual address in that she doesn't come up in front of the Parliament very often. As you mentioned, she felt the need to do so because of this defeat that her camp suffered in the referendum

a couple of weeks ago. She began by shutting down any suggestions that she might be stepping down as something the opposition's called for her to do after the referendum. So she right away said she wouldn't. Quite a substantial part of her speech was devoted to addressing her relationship with Donald Trump. So, of course, she's always been one of the EU leaders seen as the most aligned with him. But she pointed out all the recent times that she criticises moves, notably on terrorists against the EU, on Ukraine, on Iran, etc. And she also spent some time listing what she says are her government's achievements and vowed to make it to the end of her her term in office, which as you said, I mean, it's quite remarkable.

But if she does make it to autumn 2027, that really will make her government the first since the Second World to last a whole term. Natalie, I'm going to bring you in. Give us some context about this referendum and why it was such a surprise that she lost. Well, actually, it wasn't a huge surprise that it was lost because in general, in Italy, referenda aimed at changing the constitution actually very rarely pass. So what was the referendum and why was it so political and eventually so politicised? Basically, it was a referendum aimed at reforming the judiciary, which in and of itself is not even necessarily a bad thing. Now, what made

it particularly contentious is the fact that, of course, this is happening against the broader backdrop of the rise of nationalist populism, the rise of the far right, and the way in which the far right is basically, you know, harming and in many respects kind of, you know, risky to tear down liberal democracy, starting with reducing the independence of the judiciary. Now, this is basically why this referendum and particularly why the reform that was proposed was so contentious. I would say, you know, against a backdrop of in general a reluctance that Italians have in changing their constitution, you know, constitution written after the end of the Second World War, an anti-fascist constitution really at its core. And of course, a party in government that

heeds in a sense from precisely that fascist past, aiming to change that constitution by basically taking, you know, aiming at reforming the judiciary, possibly reducing its independence, essentially scared many people off. And I think what's particularly interesting about this is that there was a disproportionate number of not so much, you know, all people attached to the constitution, but young people that voted against this referendum. And I think especially that youth vote made it, and that was, I guess, the real surprise of the vote, not so much, therefore that she failed, but the fact that actually what contributed to that failure was precisely the boat of young people.

Laura, let's look at her key messages elsewhere. And one of them is based around anti-immigration. She set up detention centres in Albania to process people coming into Italy. How successful has that been? Probably nowhere near as successful she would have liked them to be. Obviously, she, you know, she's always been known as a kind of anti-immigration figure that has been one of her core messages throughout her political career, essentially, and certainly just before coming to power and since. These immigration centres that were open in Albania about a year and a half

ago were hugely expensive and have remained largely underused due to legal challenges. So in the end, one of them, I think, remains unoccupied. And the other one is being used kind of like one of the centres in Italy rather than a processing centre. So basically it's just a holding centre for migrants. So I think she was hoping that these centres would become like the flagship of her government and they never quite took off. And I think that was a big disappointment and one that they just weren't able to get around. Natalie, let's look at her relationship elsewhere with the European Union in Brussels. But let's begin with the US and President Donald Trump. Has she secured the trust of Washington?

Well, I mean, of course she started off with that trust, right, in the sense that she comes from the same political background. I mean, not so much of Donald Trump himself, given that I'm not sure he comes from any really political background. But certainly, you know, she fits very nicely in the sort of nationalist conservative camp, right? I mean, she's been a regular participant in CPAC conferences. I mean, this is her world. So she started off not only with a solid, in a sense, political grounding in sort of of Maga, America, but with good personal relations, both for Donald Trump, of course, with Elon Musk, JD Vance.

I mean, this is her world. Now, the thing is that as time has gone on, although, in a sense, her heartbeats with the Maga, you know, the Maga right, she just happens to be the leader of a European country. And we know that Donald Trump has been basically lashing out at every useful opportunity against Europe, be it over Ukraine, the threats on Greenland, tariffs, now in the context of the war in Iran. And this has made Miloni particularly uncomfortable, right? She may, as I said, have this ideological affinity. And yet, you know, she is the leader of a country which is being bashed by Donald Trump.

And so rather than taking an explicit distancing from him, she has tended to be, in a sense, rather more silent than what she used to be at the beginning of the administration where she used to sort of pride herself of being a Trump whisperer, of being a bridge across the Atlantic. Now we don't hear that as much anymore. And we hear in a sense kind of discomfort and silence more than anything else. How significant, Laura, is her gender? She's quite a lone figure at the top of politics as a woman, particularly with her ideology. I mean, I think it was very useful in setting her apart from, you know, the long line of politicians that had come before her, that had had Italy before. And I think there was definitely a sense that her gender meant that she had to be a different style of politicians. So watching her speech in Parliament this morning, I actually think that's quite a good example.

that encapsulates her personality, her styles. I mean, she's, you know, she came across as, you know, she was in a fighting mood, she was determined, she used strong rhetoric, you know, she was saying, I am somebody who will never back down, you know, I'm always going to say things as they are. She really stuck to her image of somebody, you know, the kind of like girl next door who just won't back down. And I think that has really helped. I mean, she was definitely different in the Italian context.

And she continues to be. I mean, her coalition partners are more like the Italian political figures that we're used to seeing, you know, that older men. And she, you know, even just watching her today, she was standing, you know, between them and talking to them, you know, having, you know, full faith in them, but very much like her partners. And she continues to cut that figure.

And, I mean, it's worked for her. Yeah. And Natalie, same question. to you, what is her ongoing appeal to the Italian general public and how significant is her gender? I, so as far as the appeal is concerned, I think if I were to encapsulate it in a word, I would say authentic, right? So she just comes across as meaning what she says and being who she is. And you may, you know, I was, you know, earlier we were talking about Donald Trump, in the way in which Trump kind of comes across as being authentic in his way. can, you know, love it or hate it, but you just, he's not phony, right? And she does not come across

as being phony. So I actually think that this has traditionally been a major source of strength. Coming to her role as a woman, I think alongside what Lara was saying there, I would add probably two things. The first, and here we come back, also to the whole saga around the referendum, is unlike men, I mean, I think men, gross generalization here, but I think men are more. more susceptible to falling into ego traps, right, and personalising things too much. She has been extremely careful not to do this. So, yes, obviously, for example, this referendum was a major setback, but she did not make, for example, the mistake that one of her predecessors made Matteo Renzi that also failed

in a referendum, but had personalized it so much that he was actually then forced to step down. She hasn't made that mistake. Second point that I would add is that she's extremely good in reading the room, yeah, and she has, in a sense, empathy in the way in which she develops relationships with people. Brilliant. Really insightful, really interesting. Thank you to both of you, senior BBC European reporter Laura Gozi and director of the Institute of International Affairs, Natalie Tochi.

Thanks to both of you. 8444-4. Now, my next guest has just been part of a landmark moment in global music culture, bringing the godfathers of drum and bass, Fabio and Groo Ryder, to headline the first ever jungle and drum and bass festival in East Africa, called Neurofest, and it took place in Kenya. She's one of the first female emcees in jungle music, Indigo Rain, formerly known as Lady MC,

she was born in prison, she grew up around gang culture and found her voice in jungle music, became an award-winning emcee and artist who turned disadvantage on its head. She was also the founder of the Young Urban Arts Foundation, helping thousands of young people through music and she's now taking that work global through a new cultural exchange in Kenya and I'm delighted to say Indigo

joins me in the Woman's Hour studio. Welcome Indigo. I have to start by asking you to take me back to Kenya and the festival. What was the atmosphere like? It was incredible. There's been an emerging jungle, Jum, and Bay scene over the past few years just the emergence of it. So the festival bringing the godfathers,

the pioneers, the people that the artists that created the sound on the stage. It was just incredible. It really was. It exceeded our expectations. Why did you want to do it? Well, I've been living between here and Kenya for about six years, sort of half here, half there. And when I got there, there was just no jungle drum and bass, and, you know, I can't live

my life with jungle drum and bass. Same. Right. And, yeah, I mean, just as part of my journey there, I just had a vision and it just started to grow and grow and it was very important to me to set the foundation to bring the founders of the music to set the music there because it's just emerging it's really new that the community is really small but it's growing I can you believe you've done it that you did it well I have to I have to shout out to noise out to Nikki and Ben from noise they are the co-founders of

Nora with me and also add to Alpha Theta because they're the ones that made it happen so yes I can't believe we did it but I couldn't have done it on my own I want to turn to your journey now into music because it is extraordinary and it is really inspiring and you've been really honest about how you came to find emceeing. Tell us about your experience growing up because there'll be lots of people listening who won't have heard your story.

Sure. Like thousands and hundreds of thousands of other young people in the UK or around the world, you know, when you grow up around disadvantaged, and I put that in brackets, you know, my mum, was incredible. She worked so many jobs. You know, my dad was a bit of a lost soul. You know, he was an alcoholic. He was quite an abusive man. So sort of being brought up in that household, like many other young people across the capital. You know, it has its, it has consequences and has impacts. So I found my, I found my passion and my outlet through music. And it happened to be jungle music when I was like

14, 15 years old. Why? What did that do? Tell me. when you stepped into that first club or waiting the first time you heard the music, what was the experience? It felt like home. And it felt like there was just so many misfits in one space. And it was just a place where there was no judgment. And there was just such a mix of everything, a mix of socioeconomic backgrounds.

There was a mix of races. It was just a place where there was no judgment. It's one thing finding the music, Because same, that's my community as well, back in the mid-90s. But then to actually forge a path as a MC in that space. I mean, that takes tenacity. It did. And what's interesting, I had this conversation with someone just yesterday.

And it was like, I think it was one of your producers. And it was, you know, when you're at home and you're not feeling like you have a voice or you feel quite helpless. And then you're able to have an opportunity to be heard and to be seen and to be celebrated in that way. That's what Jungle Music gave to me. That's what MC and did for me. That's what being on that stage did for me as a teenager. Let's have a listen to your track, Feel It, Soul.

Oh, thank you. So much soul. So beautiful. Oh, I've grown into that. Well, let's talk about growth. Because lots of people might know you, and I knew you, as Lady MC. Yeah. And I'm just so intrigued to hear about this rebrand.

Rebrand as Indigo Rain. Yeah, I mean, look, I was, I became Lady. MC, quite a traumatised kid, right? That's who she was, you know, back in the 90s. And Lady MC was quite, it was quite prolific. The name meant something there wasn't a lot of females around at the time. There's so many now. And I think that as I've gone through my own spiritual journey as well,

and the way I've evolved as a woman as a leader, as a community spaceholder, as a cultural leader, and everything that I've gone through, it just didn't feel, it just didn't feel, I needed, I needed a rebirth and a rebrand, and that's why I did it. And, you know, I'm not just an MC, you see. I'm, you know, I'm more than an MC. So it was, that had to change. So that's what happened.

I think it was about three years ago now. It was quite hard. Still struggle with, you know, being recognised with this new name. Where did the name come from? Indigo, well, Indigo has many shades. So I'm an Indigo child, if you want to go down that road. And, yeah, Indigo has many shades. shades, different shades of indigo. So there's many shades of me. There's different parts of me.

And I just love the colour. I've always been so drawn to indigo. And Rain, R-E-I-G-N, speaks for itself. We've got to talk about Young Urban Arts Foundation. Please, yeah. This is something that you set up a long time ago because you recognised that creativity can really change people's lives. But you did something very different. You kind of went to communities. Tell me more. Yeah, 17th, we're now 17th year now. Congratulations.

What I recognised about my life is that nothing was by coincidence. And I was never a victim of anything, you know, where I was born, the experience I had up growing up. It was all part of the tapestry of what I was about to create with Young Urban Arts Foundation. So we're a registered charity. We have got a double-decker studio bus, which we take in, to communities where there's little or nothing for young people to engage in. So we rock up this double-decker bus, teaching young people the art of music production, lyric writing, songwriting, podcasting, vocal recording.

And we take that bus into council estates and areas of deprivation. And we just rock up. And we keep young people safe from any areas of deprivation young people are at risk. They're at risk of, you know, mental health crises, being groomed into gangs. There's so many risks that they face just being in the... those areas of deprivation alone. So by us taking that bus in there, what we're essentially doing is giving them a lifeline

to help them build their skills, their confidence, their wellbeing, and more importantly, give them access into opportunities into our aftercare programmes. And how important is it that it's somebody who knows their world and knows their experience that's talking to them? I think that's the only way Young Urban Arts Foundation could have been created and exist and exist to this day because I was one of those young people where music literally saved my life.

life. Like there's... Go on. Tell me more. Yeah. When I was in my late teens, I got involved in some crime and I got involved in a group that I now later know is called a gang. And I was stuck in that. And it was only when I went to New York. I got picked up by an artist when I went to the Miami Music Conference.

And they said, look, just come to New York, get out. And I went to live in New York for, I think, a year and a half. And that changed my life. And it was because I had a mentor. It's because I had somebody that believed in me and someone that saw that actually, she's just a traumatised kid. Yeah.

You know, and when I came back from that trip, that's when my life changed. You know, that's when I realized that music saved my life. And it was that moment, and I think I was about 20 years old. And not only are you going into communities and trying to transform young people's lives through music and creativity.

Are there more women on the scene now? Oh, my gosh. They are, they're asked, it is beautiful, they wrote there is a beautiful array of amazing. in talent now. It's incredible to say. And if you could send a message to your younger self, I'm really fascinated by your story because it takes a lot. I always think the people who get out who can sort of remove themselves. I mean, you mentioned somebody said to you, come to America, gave you the opportunity.

But what would you say to younger you? It's interesting because had someone said something to the younger me, I wouldn't have created what I've created. So it's, you know, I had to experience all the things that I had to experience, but what I would say to the young people that we work with now, it really is important to be yourself, you know, it's really, and I think even understanding who we are, so find a mentor, find a trusted adult, find someone that believes in you and has your best interests at heart, and listen to that person with all your heart. It's been such a pleasure speaking to you. I want to wish you all the best. I feel like our paths cross every so often, whenever

for something news happening in your life and I cannot wait to see what you do next. Indigo rain. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Anita. I'm going to end with a few of your messages because so many of you are sharing stories of your loved items of clothing. I'm still wearing a black velvet long swishy skirt I bought when I was 17. I'm now 64. It comes out nearly every Christmas and I absolutely adore it, says Penny. And another one here saying my favourite garment is a knitted designer cardigan which belonged to my mother. When she died, I was lucky enough to get it despite the fact that she was smaller than me and it was a tight fit. day I shrank it in the wash. I couldn't bear to throw it away. So I turned it into two things.

A cushion and a coffee warmer. So I'm with my mother every day. I'm now well into my 70s. Join me tomorrow for more Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Some events have far-reaching consequences. The white noise, everything goes black and apparently I was screaming. That's the moment that my life changed forever. I'm Dr. Jean-Williams and I'm meeting the people whose lives have been reshaped in unexpected ways. That broke my heart. I just thought that it's so cruel. Personal stories of loss, discovery and starting over. We do talk about it time to time and about how grateful we are to be in this country,

to be able to be free. Life changing from BBC Radio 4. Listen now on BBC Sounds. For years, I've sounded like a broken record. want kids. I do not ever want to have kids. I don't want to have a kid. Don't want to have a kid. I'm in my 40s now. The door is almost closed. And suddenly, I'm not so sure. The story has always been, no. I'm just wondering to what degree it's just a story. Definitely just a story. From CBC's personally, this is Creation Myth. Available now,

wherever you get your podcasts.