Woman's Hour - Forced adoptions, Belinda Carlisle, Harvest mice release

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has added his voice to calls for an apology for what he has called the state's role in the "terrible tragedy" of historic forced adoptions. Between 1949 and 1976, thousands of pregnant women and girls in the UK were sent away to "prison-like" homes run by the church and state and had their babies put up for adoption. In 2021, an inquiry concluded that the State bore ultimate responsibility for the suffering inflicted on vulnerable women and their children, calling on the government to issue an official apology. Anna Foster is joined by Diana Defries, chair of the Movement for Adoption Apology and Karen Constantine, author of Taken, experiences of forced adoption, to give their reaction to the intervention by the former PM and whether they will be granted an apology. Belinda Carlisle started her musical career as Dottie Danger, a drummer in a punk band. She gained fame as the lead vocalist of the Go-Go's and was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. She went on to have a prolific career as a solo artist with hits including Heaven Is a Place on Earth and Circle in the Sand. She joins Anna to discuss her new album, Once Upon a Time in California, which takes a deeply personal journey through the golden sounds of her youth. What happens when a woman earns more than her partner, or is the sole earner in a household? For some couples, it’s a practical arrangement that works well. For others, it can bring unexpected tensions, challenging traditional ideas about gender, identity and power. Listener Karla emailed the programme to say that she wanted to talk about what it means to be a female breadwinner. She joined Anita in a replay of the item from Listener Week, along with Melissa Hogenboom, author of the book Breadwinners.After learning about the threat to harvest mice in the UK, 13 year old friends Eva and Emily decided to breed 250 of them at home and release them into a local nature reserve - with the help of a crowdfunder and Chris Packham. We think of the coal mining industry as dark, dirty and macho, but was there a place for women or even, beauty queens? Jennifer Jasmine White recently curated an exhibition at the National Coal Mining Museum that looks at the women at the heart of coal mining industry and their creative contributions to those communities.Presenter: Anna Foster Producer: Emma Pearce

I'm Anna Foster and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Just to say that for rights reasons, the music in the original radio broadcast has been removed for this podcast. Good morning. I'm looking after things for Anita today. It is great to be with you on what is, well, it really feels like the end of summer this morning, doesn't it? Depending on where you are, the kids might be reluctantly getting ready to go back to school or you might be dealing with the clouds and rain instead of those sunny, balmy days that we've had for the last few months. The end of summer means the return of Parliament from Monday. And the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown has a message for the current PM. He is joining calls from thousands of women who had their babies forcibly taken away and adopted. They say that the state should issue an apology to them following forced adoptions that took place across the UK until the 1970s.

Some, in fact, say even later than that. We hear from two women who experienced it and are demanding that apology in just a moment. Also, what have you achieved in your summer holidays? It's right, even just survival is a legitimate answer. I'll be joined, though, on the program this morning by 13-year-old best friends, Eva and Emily, who have single-handedly released 250 under threat harvest mice. And they say it's been a much better use of their time than sitting on social media. A bit of inspiration coming up for you this morning.

Belinda Carlisle will be in the Woman's Hour studio this morning. The lead singer of the go-goes is back with an album. paying homage to her home state of California. And as always, you can text the program this morning. Be great to hear from you. The number is 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour,

and you can email us as well through the website. Or, if you like, you can send a WhatsApp message at the number to do that. 0300,100-400-444. And data charges may apply depending on your provider. So you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can save a bit of it. money and you can find the terms and conditions on our website. And also before 11 o'clock this morning, we will hear about the coal queens being celebrated at an exhibition in Wigan looking at women's role in the mining industry. So lots to come on the program this morning. But let's

begin with Monday, which marks the 1st of September and with it Parliament will resume. And one issue, the former Prime Minister Labor, Labor's former Prime Minister Gordon Brown is hoping will be on the Sequea Starmer's itinerary is issuing an apology for what he's called the state's role in the terrible tragedy of historic forced adoptions. Now, between 1949 and 1976, thousands of pregnant women and girls in the UK were sent away to prison-like homes run by the church and state and had their babies put up for adoption. In 2021, an inquiry by the Joint Committee of Human Rights concluded that the state bore ultimate responsibility for the suffering inflicted on vulnerable women and on their children and called on the government to issue an official apology.

Now, earlier this week, Gordon Brown added his voice to this campaign, saying that the apology should be made in this parliamentary term. Well, with me to discuss it, in more detail, are two women who've been campaigning for this for years and have experience of it too. Deanna DeVries, whose chair of the Movement for Adoption, apologies, and Karen Constantine, who's the author of Taken, Experiences of Forced Adoption. Good morning to both of you. Good morning.

Good morning. Really grateful to have you with us this morning to explore this, but also to share your experiences as well, which I know you have time and time again over the years to try and get some sort of action on this. I wanted to start with that intervention from Gordon Brown. Karen, do you think that that will help move things forward? I certainly hope so I mean I think when Gordon Brown speaks

then people certainly listen and when you take a close listen to what he said in that interview he has already said that he's been in touch with the Department for Education and he's anticipating an apology early in the new term in Parliament so I really hope so because

the burden of shame and the trauma and the secrecy that women have experienced some now in their 70s and 80s, frankly, they are, you know, taking that to the grave with them. And this apology is urgent. And I should say that when I started to do the research for the book about three years ago and I interviewed more than 40 people, all people wanted, whether they were mothers that had had their babies taken from them, whether they were other family members, fathers, for instance, or whether they were the people that were taken, the adult adoptees, they all just wanted the apology. It is vital now that the government step up and give this apology. And we would like them to do that in concert with us. We would like to have a discussion with them

because to date we haven't been able to do that. You're right. It's a powerful thing to receive an apology for anything, isn't it? How do you feel, Diana? Do you feel that this is moving things forward? As Karen said, I sincerely hope so. We've had prominent people speak on our behalf before. and we've had hopes then, and we have hopes now.

We just have to wait and see. We have no idea what will happen and how this will unfold, but we want to be cautiously hopeful. Would you, Diana, as well, just remind us, because of course regular listeners to the programme know that this has happened in Ireland. It's something we've covered a lot on the programme, but people might be surprised to know that this took place in the UK as well.

Tell us more about what happened. it's a long sad story of exploitation really when a young woman found herself pregnant and again it was always the women who were punished or vilified it was very seldom attention very seldom went to the fathers of these children there was a sense that she'd transgressed the social norms, she brought shame on the family and she would be sent to either a mother and a baby home or somewhere similar, hidden away, left to deal with her pregnancy on her own. Often there was no antinatal care and the process of bringing that child into the world would also be extremely traumatic because the attitudes of those people who were around during delivery

were often extremely harsh. It varied from woman to woman, home to home situation to situation, but ultimately it was very, very difficult. And even when arguing one's case as a young mother, no one listened, no one gave options about what you might be able to do to keep your baby. always a matter of you'll do the best thing, you'll give this baby to a proper family. And the way that was put was if you love your baby, you'll surrender it for adoption. You'll do the right thing. You'll do the best thing. It was one of the cruelest things that could have been done to a young mother. Karen, what happened to you? Well, I just wanted to add to what Diana had said. I mean, it was cruel. And I think the point here

is it was profit making. So that when I went into a mother and baby home, my parents were asked to make a contribution because they were poor. They were allowed the discounted rate of 20 pounds per week, which is now about 140 something. So that's a vital thing to understanding this. This wasn't just about the shaming of women and girls, but it was also about making money. And many of the churches had robust networks into which we were all fed. So I went into a mother and baby home in 1978, which is obviously beyond 1976. And in that, I was taken away from, as all the women were, completely cut off from your family, your education,

you work in some cases, you were completely isolated. I certainly felt like a prison. I was a very young, 15-year-old. And, you know, I didn't have the assertiveness then that I have now. So I didn't ask if I could go outside. I just remained inside. I was essentially shamed and judged and then indoctrinated repeatedly on a daily basis by a man that was the priest and also my social worker to hand over my baby. And in the end, I didn't for whatever reason.

But when I came out of that home, I was then part of, you know, a society that continued to judge me and my child. And the second child that I had, I had another child very quickly because I wanted to be a family, you know, because I'd been told a family was a good thing to be. And I lived basically, we lived in poverty, in squalor, in a community that scorned us. You know, we became the reason why other mothers might look at a young woman that was pregnant and say, you don't want to end up like her. So I was, you know, cut off from most of my family. That's a pattern that persists. I'm sure this is in common with other women.

And when I found out the scale, when I found out it was 215,000 women that had been subject to this, rather than just me in a sort of isolated bubble. When I later came to realise it's probably in the region of half a million women that have been put through this process, that's what stimulated me to write the book because I couldn't believe that all of that lived experience

and all of the politics of the situation wasn't captured somewhere. And the point is now, we have made a fuss with the government, we have written to the ministers repeatedly, we have laid it out as simply as it can be laid out, And it is now time for this apology and for reparations to follow. Yeah.

And as you explain there so powerfully, it's not just something that affects those years when it's happening. It's something that continues to affect you for the rest of your life. And Diana, in your case, you had your daughter taken away from you. Yes, when she was 12 days old, I was taken from the South Coast where I'd been sent. And I didn't want to let her go. So she was literally, torn is too strong a word, but she was taken with a great deal of intent from my arms.

And we were separated. And in that moment, and the doctor, he loses everything. And a mother is utterly bereft. I think the point I'd also like to make is that because there's very little or no antinatal care, very little or no postnatal care, and there's no acknowledgement, it becomes a secret because nobody ever says,

congratulations on your baby. Nobody ever acknowledges what you've been through. So you live with this really profound experience. It's a right of passage. Having your first child is a right of passage, and it's sullied by this, and you're damaged by this. And so many women, whether in Karen's situation

or in my own, or, you know, each situation is unique. unique. But we all carry the trauma of having a child taken or having been through a mother and baby home and being treated as if we're the lowest of the low. And nobody acknowledges it. So what we need in this apology is an acknowledgement of the huge injustice that's been done, the damage that's been done, the terrible things that people have had to live with in secrecy, because nobody wants to listen. And now it's time. It's time that people listen. It's time that people acknowledge it. And what Karen was saying about it being a money-making machine, absolutely.

Nothing proliferates without profit. And that big machine that was operating, that was enabled by the state. So we expect something from this government. We hope for something from this government, to acknowledge all the injustices, to acknowledge all the cruelties, and to acknowledge the machinery that was in place, that was empowered by the governments of the time. Yeah, a spokesperson for the current government has said this abhorrent practice should never have taken place and our deepest sympathies are with all those affected. We take this issue extremely seriously and continue to engage with those affected to provide support. What it doesn't do is give what you want, which is an apology or a doubt.

for it. I wonder, in the case of both of you, actually, what impact this had on your children? Because, Diana, you did reconnect with your daughter. I did. We were two of the more fortunate people in situations like this. We managed to reconnect just after her 18th birthday. And, excuse me, we had a lot of time to sort of begin. that relationship but those relationships are never quite what you would expect them to be they're never as they would have been nothing quite fits in the way it was so I think those journeys are very difficult and the impact on I mean I

didn't have any more children so I can't talk about the impact on subsequent children and I'm not alone in that a lot of women who went through that experience didn't have any more children The problem is that the impact lasts. So whether or not you have a reunion, whether or not you manage to establish a long-term relationship, it's still there. The impact of that separation is still there. No, it never goes away. Karen, you kept your son, as you said, but you also had a second son as well as you were describing.

How do you, as they're growing up, how do you describe that to them? How do you, because eventually they come to know you and the work that you. you do as they've grown up. How has it changed their lives? Well, to be honest, I wish that that was the case, really. The pattern that was laid down in my family regarding my behaviour at 15 and my, you know, my proclivity for getting pregnant and the punishment that I received is a pattern that's being repeated. I'm still estranged from my family. And unfortunately, for me, that has extended to my oldest son. And my younger son, unfortunately, died in 2001. So I don't have the opportunity to explain to them, to even say, look, I'm sorry, I did my best.

We had a lot of love. We had a lot of good times, actually. But it's very difficult to, we didn't, they weren't brought up in a way that I would, that I later brought up my second two daughters. So by the time I had my second two daughters, I was established. I had a career, I had money. They had a completely different lifestyle. They didn't grow up in a cold, dingy house. You know, it was much better. I think the impact on me was that I was constantly striving to prove myself.

And so I think I probably had PTSD, and I probably was never the relaxed mother that I wanted to be. So I think it has long-term impact. But I do want to say one thing, which is about those words from the government that you read out. Because I'll tell you this. We are absolutely sick of hearing those words because they are absolutely hollow. We get that response every single time we write to a minister, whether that's Janet Darby or whether that's Bridgett Philipson,

and we get this platitude that the government are engaged with us. Well, I'm a seasoned trade union negotiator and I can tell you they are not engaged with us. They are not meeting with us. They are not listening to us. and they are most definitely not responding to any of the significant issues based on current research that we are raising with them. So the increased suicide rate that's being discovered amongst first mothers and adoptees, no response from the government on that. The issue with the use of strebreastol, which was to suppress breast milk, the intergenerational impact of that, which is carcinogenic. Have they responded? No, they haven't. So they are not engaged with us at all.

with them regularly and we get that platitude back and frankly this labour government needs to step up now Gordon Brown is quite right we need that apology and actually we need to be in a room with them to explain what has happened how this has happened and what steps need to take what steps they need to take now this is another social injustice it's no less than the postmasters scandal or the nuclear lab rats or the infected blood scandal we are part of that group and we expect to be treated with dignity and some respect. So I think it's about time that they stepped up. I'm grateful to you both for speaking so powerfully and so honestly on the subject and giving people, I think, a real insight into what you've been through over the years.

Thank you. Karen Constantine and Diana DeFries, thank you for joining us. Thank you as well for your thoughts on the text this morning already. An interesting one here that says Like of morning. Not always the case. I was born in 1957. My mum was unmarried and pregnant. And her family, my grandparents, cared for her. She stayed at home with them. And subsequently, when I was born, they welcomed, loved and adored me. And in fact, another message here as well said this was society inflicting this awful stigma on single moms. The parents of these girls could in some cases have supported them, not been ashamed, not sent them away. it is, as you were hearing there, just that something that at such a formative stage in life can have an impact that lasts for years and years and really changes the person you become. Your thoughts, very welcome on that, please do you get in touch on the usual number.

Now, Belinda Carlyle started her musical career as Dotty Danger, a drummer in a punk band and gained fame as the lead vocalist of the Go-Go's, which I'm sure you remember, one of the most successful all-female new wave bands, even receiving a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. She went on to have a prolific career as a solo artist, had a stream of hits, which will come straight back to mind when I tell you the names, Heaven is a Place on Earth, leave a light on, and circle in the sand.

Belinda's in the UK for an upcoming tour, got a new album out today, Once Upon a Time in California, and joins us, Belinda Carlisle, good morning. Good morning, how are you? I'm really well. How are you? I'm good, thank you. Good. This new album,

And we'll talk about those old classic songs that we love in just a moment. But this new album is a really interesting one because for you, it's a very personal journey through the sounds of your youth growing up and your California upbringing as well. Right. Well, I knew I wanted to do a cover song of songs. I grew up in born and raised in California, and California radio was very much part of the culture there. And it, you know, inspired me to want to be a singer as a young girl. And so in 2017, I decided that I wanted to do an album full of songs, some of the songs that inspired me to want to be a singer one day.

And here we are in 2025, and it's finally finished and released. How was that? Because that must have felt just wonderfully freeing and nurturing to you as a person to be able to go back and really delve deep into your memories. And as an adult, select the ones that were formative and do something really creative with them. Yeah, I mean, it was, with every song, it takes me back to moments of my childhood. And, yeah, I mean, it's, it was kind of actually bittersweet and kind of melancholy in some ways. But at the same time, I mean, these are beautiful pop songs. And, you know, it was like a big puzzle to put together to keep the integrity of the song, yet make it my own. And how did you pull those then together into an album?

album, because there must have been the process of what to keep, what to lose, to make it a coherent hole. How did you work your way through that? Well, it was fairly easy because, well, some of the songs, we started with about 75, 100 songs. I was working with somebody at the record company who was a real musicologist who helped me with the songs, and things just didn't sort of fit with the concept, but we also demoed a lot of songs that I thought would work that didn't end up working at all. So it was pretty obvious, the songs that were going to make the album. There's still so much power in your voice. That particular song, why did that make it in there? Well, I, you know, it was one of my favorite songs. I think it came out in 68 when I was about 10 years

old, and I didn't really understand the lyrics. And it was a hit. It was a top 10 in the States. And I thought, lyrically, I mean, I didn't understand the lyrics when I was a little girl, but it's, you know, living a life like I have, which is so rich and, you know, just amazing and having all these experiences of love and loss. And I just thought it would be a really fitting end to the album. And that's why it made the cut. Yeah. And some of the tracks on there as well were inspired by Saturday Serenade, which was that weekly

karaoke performance that you did on Instagram during lockdown. Yes, I was, I really didn't think I was going to be able to sing again. And who knew what was going on in the world. So I decided that to find the best karaoke tracks to some of my favorite songs and sing them every Saturday morning. So, yeah, it became kind of a thing. Yeah. And as we said as well, you in your musical career have covered so many styles as well.

You started out with punk and have been sort of creatively meandering through all sorts of different influences through the years, which not everybody does. You know, some people, they have a particular style. They stick to it. Right. Well, I mean, I, you know, always has, I grew up with melodic pop. The punk scene came along. It really spoke to that rebellious teenager in me.

And I loved it. And I still left punk rock. And then, thank God for the whole movement. Otherwise, the go-goes would never have happened. And we were a punk band, but we all actually had melody too. So, yeah, I mean, my career has been varied, very much varied. It really has. How often do you find yourself reminiscing, looking back to times like the go-goes, for example, popularizing new wave music, the star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame? Is that something that you, you know, as we get older, I think as women, you sometimes find yourself sitting back and thinking, I'm going to consider my achievements. I'm going to think about what I've done. Right. When we also got inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame a couple years ago, but I don't think we ever really thought it. I mean, I don't really think about it a lot.

And none of us in the go-go's date until there was a documentary made on the band. And I just sat there and thought, oh, my God, we did all that. And I didn't even think about it at the time. And we never thought in terms of gender, you know, we were just going to be a good little rock band. And yeah, and then the rest is history. Yeah, it really is. And when we look at what you're doing now, learning Spanish. I mean, you've recorded an album with French songs before, maybe a Spanish album.

Oh, who knows? I also did a Sanskrit album, because I'm not. I chant every day. So I don't know what I'm going to do next, but I mean, I am learning Spanish because I live in Mexico. So who knows? I mean, that thought has crossed my mind, if I'm going to be honest. Yeah, I bet it has. What took you to Mexico?

We were living, I mean, I haven't lived in the States since 1994. So I lived in France for 24 years, and I lived in Thailand. I mean, I've lived in eight different countries. And during the pandemic, we were in Thailand, and it got really weird there. So we thought, well, where we're going to go next? Mexico seemed the obvious place, because Thailand was so far away, and I was starting to feel the distance. So now we're in Mexico. It's three hours from, you know, my friends and family, as opposed to 27 hours. And I think I'm done with moving. I think, you know, we've always immersed ourselves in different cultures, like eight different countries.

And I think this is a last stop. I don't want to move again. Put down some rooms. But also, you mentioned the Sanskrit album. You all living a really, really clean lifestyle now, early nights, up early for meditation and yoga, sober since 2005. It must be like a contrast to the rock and roll years. Yeah, it's totally opposite. I mean, I used to go to bed at four or five o'clock in the morning. Now I get up at three. So, and that's kind of a daily practice.

And it's just, you know, my own sort of practice that I always say it takes a lot of work to feel stable and normal in this world. So for me, it's like an essential part of my life. Yeah. And good prep for a tour, which starts early September. You're going to Scotland, London, Manchester. I bet when you're on stage, you know, when you need the energy that you're glad, glad you have those early nights. Oh, yeah.

I mean, yeah. It's funny because I had the whole summer off and I looked at my work schedule. I was like, oh, my God. I'm not used to working that hard. But I know, it's getting into the rhythm. I absolutely love it. I love doing live performances, and yeah, we have London coming up on the 12th. It's the only, everything's sold out except we have a few tickets left in London.

So London's the place to try and catch you live. Yes, September 12th. Belinda, it's great to talk to you. And good luck with the tour. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoy it. It's really lovely to see you. Thank you so much.

Belinda Carlisle. Now, let's look at a little something which we heard on the program earlier this month. It was Woman's Hour Listeners Week, when all the ideas. rides across the week, as suggested by you, the listener. And one question that came in was about female breadwinners. What happens when a woman earns more than her partner, or perhaps is the sole earner in a household? And Carla got in touch, one of our women's out listeners,

she emailed saying, my suggestion for Listener Week, is to do something on women that do well in their careers, surpassing their partner. I don't often feel that this theme is covered as normally you look at the other side, women as caregivers or the ones that are underpaid. I'm a marketing director at an American tech firm. I'm married with a four-year-old and a six-month-old.

I'm currently on maternity leave, and I feel a huge amount of pressure to go back soon and full-time because I'm the sole breadwinner. Am I alone in this, or is it an emerging trend? So to discuss being the female breadwinner, which for some couples can work well as a practical arrangement for others, it can bring unexpected tensions, perhaps, challenging traditional ideas about gender, identity, power,

It's different for everyone. Anita was joined by Carla and Melissa Hogan Boom, author of breadwinners and other power dynamics that influence your life. And Anita began by asking Carla, what made her want to discuss this topic? Well, I guess this is something that has been on my mind for a long time. I've been the main breadwinner of my house for probably the best part of 10 years now. And certainly now that I'm on maternity leave for a second time, it's something that plays on my mind quite a bit, particularly as I I'm about to return to work again, and there's that feeling that, gosh, I really wish I could spend more time with my children, but, you know, I have to pay the bills. And so, yeah, it prompted me to write in. I think as a consequence of being a breadwinner, I do feel a lot of pressure on my shoulders to keep going at full pelt. There really isn't an opportunity for me to drop down to going part-time, for instance, so that I could spend more time with my kids because, again, the bills need to be paid. And also, I do get anxious from time to time thinking about, gosh, what would happen if I did lose my job, you know, with emerging AI and

things like that. Could at some point my job become redundant because of that. So I don't quite know what the answer is to that. But then the other observation I've had, and I would love to hear what Melissa has to say on this, as a female breadwinner, I still find myself, picking up a lot of those traditional female responsibilities in the house, such as cleaning and, of course, carrying the mother load and project managing our house and our family. And I do wonder whether that is unique to myself or whether that is more of an emerging trend. Well, before we ask, Melissa, why do you think you're doing that? Yeah, it's a great question. I do think that my husband is capable of doing some of these things.

but not necessarily to the same standard that I enjoy. And we often get into heated discussions around this, around what does a clean kitchen look like? So for me, a clean kitchen is clean. But for him, it might still have crumbs on the counters and a few dishes out and the floor hasn't been hoovered. And so for me, I then feel like I need to take on that as well because I hate to say it.

I mean, I love my husband to pieces, but I can't trust him with certain things. things to be done to the standard that I'd like. And also, as we were discussing a little bit before we came on live, I don't necessarily want to be judged by other people for not keeping a clean house. And I think that if people come into the house and they see it's not clean, they'll think that it's me who hasn't cleaned it properly as opposed to actually it was my husband who did it. So, yeah. We've got personal already, so we might as well keep going. Can you sort of explain the setup at home a bit more? In terms of... With your husband and the child's

care and how the home is managed with you being this old breadwin? Yes, for sure. So I work full time and, well, I mean, at the moment, obviously I'm on maternity leave, but if we talk about when I'm working, I work full time. I typically clock off around 6pm, but sometimes it can go a little bit later than that. From a childcare perspective, we pay for four days of nursery for, at the moment, neither of the children are in nursery because I'm off. but very soon our four-year-old will start school so that's great and then our baby will be starting

nursery and he will be doing four days a week. For that fifth day the idea was really for my husband to pick up the child's care and actually as it turns out my dad has really stepped up and he's been helping us a lot so shout out to the dads for you know coming in here. He's been really good at helping out with those Fridays. My husband, he does work. It's not that he doesn't work. He's self-employed and he's very passionate about what he does and he does work hard but unfortunately it's just not bringing in an income that really can support our family. It doesn't contribute in any material way. So it does sort of land on me to pay for things and then yeah from sort of getting cleaning done and those sorts of things that's as I've already mentioned

primarily sits with myself. It's not to say again that my husband doesn't do other things. things. There are things that he takes on like managing the car. We're doing a big house project at the moment. He's doing a lot of the DIY and things for that. So he does work hard. But again, the traditional things that normally sit with women, very much full with me. Melissa. It's interesting to hear Carla say that, because this chimes with the women I spoke with. So in all cases, every woman I spoke with, and I spoke to dozens of men and women, they tend to do the majority of the household labor, whether they were the primary earners, so earning more, or the sole earners. So this is earning the full household income. And the only situation where

men were doing more at home was if they were the state-at-home dads during the week. But at the weekend, the women still tended to pick up the slack. And a lot of researchers point to the idea that women who are stepping outside of these gendered expectations, and they're so entrenched, we feel it, you know, the way we're brought up. Girls do more chores them boys from a very young age. And women are judged on the way the household runs not in the same way that men are. And so women then overcompensate in their spare time, either because they feel guilty for not being there.

Maybe they feel guilty for not working flexibly, like you said. You don't see men, male breadwinners requesting more flexibility at work, but women feel judged for the way that they're doing child care in a way that men simply do not. And women are expected to work flexibly in the way that men are not. And so this translates to doing more at home, whether it's the visible load or even the mental load. So I think that's the one that's hardest to crack. This is the anticipating, the researching, the deciding. It's not just the visible elements of the housework.

And then what Carla said as well, the very gendered patterns that happen, you see women doing more of the everyday tasks and men chiming in and saying, well, I do my bit. I do, you know, the finances or the car, but those are not everyday tasks. And so in terms of leisure time, female breadwinners who earn more of the money, they are out the house more or working more hours, they still have less leisure time than men, even if the men aren't in paid employment. Roughly how many women are the breadwinner in the UK? In the UK, it's about one and four couples, and it's been gradually rising, and we see similar trends in Europe. And why did you want to write this book? Well, I grew up in a household where my mother had the higher status job, and my father was at home a lot. So I was very much of the generation where I was thinking,

I thought I could get, you know, go into the labor force and do whatever I want. I didn't ever think my gender would hold me back. And this definitely helped me progress in my career. And then when I came across research, because I write about gender inequality a lot, I came across research that showed that men's well-being is lower when they're both, when men's well-being is lower when he's unemployed and she's out to work, and his well-being is higher if they're both unemployed. And that makes no economic sense.

Yeah, explain. It makes no economic sense. And this is a well-being survey, so it's not looking in asking them deep questions about it. But the reason why is, again, it's tied to masculinity and expected norms of going out to work the workforce and your identity being tied to the work. And so if you're both unemployed, there's not this visible discrepancy. Yeah, the discrepancy. Whereas if you're unemployed and your female partner is employed, you see her go out to work every day. And every day you're reminded that you're not providing.

Carla, you're nodding. Yes, I mean, I actually have to say that I don't feel that this is the case in my relationship as it is today. My husband, he said, don't call it a low ego, call it a non-fragile ego. He is quite supportive of what I'm doing. I say very supportive of what I'm doing and he loves to see that I'm successful. That's not to say that it doesn't hurt him that he's not able to contribute more because I know that he would love to be able to do. that, but it's not, they're not mutually exclusive. However, I have been in previous relationships where this would have been a really, really big issue and, you know, relationships where I was

earning less than the man and he would hang that over my head and, you know, remind me every day that, you know, not necessarily I should be contributing more financially, but that I should therefore, as a result, be doing a lot more to compensate for the fact that he's earning more. So I know the type of men that would feel very comfortable in a way of either earning more or just being unemployed alongside their counterpart as opposed to the woman going out and earning and them not earning. Melissa, do you think some of these expectations, we've mentioned already, come from telling little girls they can do anything or in fact actually saying to them that you must do

everything but not socialising boys in the same way to use Gloria Steinem. She said, though we have the courage to raise our daughters, more like our sons, we rarely have the courage to raise our sons like our daughters. I think how we raise our children plays a huge role. And you see this in norms where men perhaps have seen their mothers go out to work and earning more. They are less expecting of their wives to do more at home. So I spoke to some amazing fathers who are earning less. And the common thread was the ones who are happy.

in their marriage and happy to see their wives earning more had witnessed their mother going out to work. Yeah. It's definitely a topic that we need to spend more time talking about and exploring. That's listener Carla and Melissa Hogan Boom as well. Worth saying, by the way, we had a text from Carla after the program, which I'm going to show with you. It said when I got home yesterday afternoon, my kitchen was spotless. The floor had even been mopped, something my husband admitted he had never done before.

Turns out all I needed to do to get him to do it was to speak on national radio. Glad to help. Carla, and your thoughts always welcomed as well. And also, I just wanted to share with you a couple of text messages about the item we started the program on today about forced adoptions. Thank you, says this message for the powerful piece on forced adoptions. I know a mother whose happiness was made possible by being given a baby, me, via a church adoption scheme. Later in my life, I met my birth mother who went through the trauma of giving her baby up. Both women shared the same story, but from very different perspectives. Both women. became friends and both of them will forever be the most loved and influential women in my life. And just one more as well. Susan wrote to say, I'd like to thank that generation of women who fought against the prejudices of that time. I had a child in 1987 and as a single mother had support from my GP, midwife, family and friends for me, says Susan, it was a beautiful time.

What a difference 10 years made. Thank you. And thank you for getting in touch as well. Now, on Wednesday, 250 harvest mice were released into a nature reserve in Devon, helping to replenish the natural stocks of this under threat animal. But the project wasn't conceived by a big conservation group or a local wildlife centre. In fact, it barely involved any adults at all. Instead, it came from the dedication of two 13-year-old naturalists, Eva Wishart and Emily Smith, who bred the mice at home using empty,

fish tanks, plants from the garden, and a custom-built release enclosure. I'm delighted to say, Emily and Eva, join me now. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello, thanks for having us. It's great to have you. Now, I am thoroughly impressed, I have to say, and I think a lot of moms and dads listening will be really impressed that you spent your summer holidays doing this when so many girls and boys of your age are spending it perhaps on screens and that sort of thing. Emily, what gave you the idea to do this? Well, I just joined Eva on the second year of her breeding. So Eva, you're the powerhouse, right?

Yeah. So it started on a family camping trip to Derek Gow's place. Derek Giles like a legendary ecologist. And he breeds native and endangered British wildlife like storks and beavers and waterfalls and harvest mice. So we saw the harvest mice and they're small and relatively easy to look after. and you don't require a licence to breathe them. So I thought we should get some of them. And in August 2022, we got our first two pairs of mice.

But unfortunately, the cat did eat three of the four. Okay, that's a learning curve, isn't it? One of the things, I can see you laughing, Emily. It's one of the things that you have to learn early. But it got a lot more successful after that, right? Yes, it did. In the first year, we bred 80 harvest mice, and 68 of them were given to Derek Gow,

and he released them in Cheshire. So I like to think of my mice living in Cheshire with Northern accents. Oh, definitely. Is it hard to do? Because it sounds to me like it must be quite a complicated thing to get the hang off. Yeah, it's very complicated. I mean, you have to sort out all the mice, work out, who's going with who. And you can't tell them apart.

It all requires all my pretty rubbish labelling systems. What's your labelling system look like? I don't have one. That's why it's rubbish. Do you just have to guess? or do you have to look for their little distinguishing features on them? I mean, I write basic labels, but they don't help. They don't help.

Well, look, I mean, it's good to see. And Emily, you got involved in all of this as well. Eva's clearly a pretty good teacher. Did you enjoy the experience? Yeah, it's been amazing. I've really enjoyed it. Yeah. What was your favourite part of doing it, Emily?

Probably just thinking that we're going to be able to make a stable population and that's going to be back in the ecosystem for a while at least. Yeah, because I suppose that's the big part of it as well. You get the enjoyment of doing something, but then also you know. And as you said, Eva, you were inspired by this. You know that actually the result of your hard work is for the greater good. For the natural world, yeah. So, like, I learn about all sorts of horrible things in books and on documentaries,

what's happening to the world and our future. is very scary at the moment. So doing something, even though it's a tiny project with tiny creatures, it's really helping me to feel a lot better. Oh, that's really interesting, actually, to do something, because you're right, the world can be a scary place at times. And so if you're doing something

positive, that really helps you, does it? Yeah, it does. Yeah. I wonder as well, and this is just me, I would find it really hard to let them go at the end. Do you not get attached to them? I do get attached to them.

Yes, I'm very sentimental about my mice. Are you? But in my garage, they are living in quite small tanks and they don't have a lot of room. So releasing them into the world in their natural habitat is amazing. And we saw them yesterday in the Deadhead, which was lovely. Oh, yeah, that's a really good way of looking at it, actually, knowing that you're sending them out there to a better life. And as you said, particularly the ones that have northern accents. Do you ever think about the fact that they're going off and having new families and having all of these adventures?

Exactly, yeah. It's my baby's going off into the world. Oh, that's cute. And, I mean, this is just getting bigger and bigger. You had 27 fish tanks that you did all of this. Because we said at the start 250 mice, which is a big project. I mean, I'm just wondering how this all fits in your house at this stage. Well, I used to have them in my bedroom, but we had to clear out the garage. It took some effort, but yeah, so we've mostly moved out to our garages. to breed them.

Yeah. So we didn't really have enough space to be a whole 250. So we tried to breed 150. That didn't quite work because they haven't been breeding as fast as we hope. So we had to buy some off Derek. And we needed to raise £4,050. And that's how the crowd funder got involved. Then Chris Packham posted it.

Then there was a Packham effect. And it shot up. Yeah, it really did. And it's brilliant, as we were saying, to see the results of what you've achieved. What was it like that moment when you released them? It was really uplifting. And, well, with Chris Packham there,

it definitely felt like we were on Springwatch or Winter Watch or something. Yeah. Did you get the feeling of what it must be like to be a parent, just for a second? Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, when you get older and the sort of children are running off and you're thinking, I hope they behave, I hope they're safe. If the people are listening to this,

and I bet there are people who are inspired to do, a similar sort of thing. What advice would you give them if they want to have a go themselves? So I do have this idea, which is basically it's about creating a network of children all across the country. So instead of having tiny hamsters cooped up in tiny cages, they can breed endangered British wildlife like butterflies, harvest mice and glowworms. And they can be released and it would all be supported by professional ecologists. Well, I think that's a brilliant idea and it's definitely something to work on.

So if anybody's listening to this and can help, then that could be the start of your big project, right? Yes, please. That's fantastic. Well, look, as I said at the start, I am so, so impressed with everything you've done. And it's really lovely to talk you about it. Emily and Eva, thanks so much.

Thanks. Thank you. Bye. Great to have them on there. You see, even at that young age, even at the age of 13, you can have inspiring, young women on the program. Speaking of which, moving on to a slightly different topic, but no less inspiring, we think of the coal mining industry, don't we, as sort of dark and dirty and quite macho? But was there a place for women, or even taking it a step further? Beauty

Queens. The writer and researcher Jennifer Jasmine White recently curated an exhibition at the National Coal Mining Museum in Wakefield that looks at the women at the heart of the coal mining industry and their creative contributions which created the community that grew up around coal. Jennifer, welcome to the program. Thanks for having me. Like you, I grew up in a former mining community. So I know what it's like to be surrounded by all of that. But what I didn't know, actually, until preparing to have this conversation with you today,

was the impact and the contribution that women made to it. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's one of those things. Once you start looking, you know, women are everywhere, kind of in the record, not in the record, but absolutely kind of contributing at every level to these communities. Yeah. And you're from St. Helens. So tell us a bit about how mining shaped the place. Yeah. I mean, mining was kind of one of the big three main industries in St. Helens. And certainly for me, growing up, it really felt like, although a lot of time had passed, it was still something that was really present in the community. It's present in the kind of physical landscape. But also, I guess, you know, with de-industrialisation, you do have the sense of, like, things weren't always this way, you know, that there was something else here. And so I think it felt really, really present. But then the interesting thing is that doing the research for this show, I kind of found that that's maybe not so much the case with young people today.

There are a lot of young people in these communities even that have no kind of knowledge or concept of these really, really important kind of histories. Yeah. So part of it was about helping them learn. what came before. And you called the show From the Earth Comes Light, which is a particular St. Helen's phrase, right? Yeah, I mean, it was, for a while it was the kind of motto of the town, and I think

recently it's been re-adopted as the town motto again. What kind of thing did you want to show people? Because I know that you were a bit frustrated as well about just the way that the industry has been portrayed in the media over the years.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there are loads of frustrations that I have. Obviously, the most obvious one is that it's depicted as a kind of entirely masculine industry, which isn't necessarily true. And even if it is, I mean, industries don't exist in a vacuum. You know, there are whole communities around these industries. But it's not only the question of kind of masculinity as well. It's about like the types of masculinity that get associated with coal mining and the kind of images that we use. You know, it's, it's gritty, it's monochrome. And also it's like really kind of fixed and static in the past and kind of disimilar.

empowered. And that's the thing that I really wanted to kind of push against and try and bring some new stories and some new light to. Yeah. The idea that because it's dangerous, it can't be for women, has to be men that sort of pick that work up. Could women go down the mine? Did that happen? They could at one time, yeah, up until kind of midway through the 19th century. Yeah, absolutely. Then it was, I think, 1843 women were banned from going underground. But they did still do so. I mean, there were all kinds of kind of inventive and creative ways. they got around that. And then even after that point, they kind of changed strategy and started working predominantly on the surface of the pit instead. Did you manage to find out much about

their motivation for wanting to do that? Well, in the majority of cases, it's earning a living, right? I mean, I think there are probably other things there going on as well. But in the vast majority of cases, absolutely, this was women's livelihoods. That's why they wanted to carry on doing it. and that's why they were frustrated that it was kind of taken away from them. Yeah. And I think what's interesting as well about your exhibition is it's about the working side of things and it's about the history, but it's also about the creativity that women brought to it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's kind of the big theme running all the way through the exhibition is this idea of creativity and also about asking, well, what does creativity mean in these contexts? So, of course, we've got lots of kind of very traditional, formal art objects. We've got your paintings, we've got your sculptures. But I also really wanted to bring in aspects from my kind of writing and research, which ask, well, creativity maybe looks a little bit different when we're talking about working class women, for instance. And we might be thinking

about what does creativity mean in terms of everyday life, in terms of just the practices of living with other people in a community. Yeah. And things like the coal queens, for example, tell me about the coal queens. Yeah. So, I mean, that's a great example. It was, It was my kind of personal favourite one. The cold queens were one facet of a wider phenomenon that ran all the way through the 20th century that was sort of the queens of industry. So you had cotton queens, silk queens,

and then eventually coal queens too. And it's quite a complex thing. I mean, on the one hand, it's basically a beauty pageant and it's something that we might quite easily kind of dismiss and deride now as being quite misogynistic. You know, these were very beautiful women. they were always white, they were always sort of blonde and able-bodied. But on the other hand, there is kind of more of a complexity there.

These women were also given opportunities through this competition to kind of do things that they wouldn't ever have had the opportunity to do. Otherwise, they got to travel the world, they got to earn money. They even at points adopted sort of civic roles and kind of gave speeches, met politicians, that kind of thing. Plus then there's also the question of the kind of glamour itself, which I would see as a kind of creative practice, you know, the self-bassioning of these women that, yeah, I guess, you know,

we don't think of as being something that's artistic or creative, but I think that's something that needs to change. Yeah, and it's, as we said, it's called From the Earth Comes Light, women, creativity and mining in 20th century, Britain. It is open until the end of September at the National Coal Mining Museum,

which is worth saying, because obviously I live in the north, it's a brilliant place to go. If you've never been, take your children, you love it, you learn so. much, don't you, just from going around there? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had never been before working on this exhibition, and I was really blown away by it. I think it's a great place to visit with genuinely something for everyone.

Yeah. What's next for you? Will you sort of continue focus on mining, or have you got your eye on something else to follow it up with? Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, my work kind of more generally is about working class femininity in Britain, particularly in 20th century Britain. And this exhibition has really sort of spurred me on to carry on working on that, really, writing and researching. And, yeah, thinking about how working-class women have lived creatively and done all kinds of exciting things that we don't otherwise hear about. Yeah, and just the contrast with coal as well, when you were talking about the coal queens and just the idea of the glamour and the colour and the life, and when you contrast it to the darkness and the dirt down the pit, it just, they feel like worlds away, universe is away, don't they? They do, but then they're part of a continuum, you know, they're part of a community. But, yeah, absolutely, I mean, the kind of the visuals, the iconography of it.

at one point the cold queen was offered her own body weight in baby sham as a prize baby sham how fabulous yeah it's it's some some distance away from being down the pit but in other ways not so far at all yeah that would be a good reason to just put on a bit of weight wouldn't it eat some cake just to increase the amount of baby sham that you get as a result it has been absolutely fascinating as I said it's still open the exhibition until the 28th of September Jennifer Jasmine White thank you so much for joining us thank you Thank you. Now, not too long to go for me. Just to remind you, by the way, if you are looking for something to listen to over the weekend, last Friday, Anita's program live from Bladen's Women's Rugby Club is well worth a listen again. The Women's Rugby World Cup is still going. It's going strong. You can listen back to the program on BBC Sounds. It was last Friday the 22nd of August. So do go back and have a listen to that. Or Kylie Pentelow is here tomorrow as well with weekends. Woman's Hour. Going to be talking a bit more about the rugby idea, whether a flashing

mouthguard could help concussion rates. And the woman who knows everything you possibly can about Jane Austen, Paula Byrne, joins Kylie on the programme. So join her just after four. And thanks for being with us. Have a good day. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Two months ago, I was just an ordinary mum. From BBC Radio 4 as part of Limelight. This is mother cover. Our system has identified you as a candidate for a position. See this woman here in the photo. She attends a mother and baby group at the town hall. Can I sit you? I'm Gwen, by the way. Liz, is she dangerous? Lives are a stake here, Gwen. What do you mean lives? Gwen? What are you

doing? I want out. I want out now. Oh my God, Liz, that tree. Look out! Listen to the whole series right now. First, on BBC Sounds. What on earth is your mummy up to?