Woman's Hour - Foreign Secretary James Cleverly MP, Poet Kim Moore, Chief Fire Officer Sabrina Cohen-Hatton

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

On International Women’s Day we talk to the foreign secretary, James Cleverly MP, as he travels to Sierra Leone to launch the UK’s new international women and girls strategy.Dr Sabrina Cohen-Hatton is one the most senior fire fighters in the UK. The current Chief Fire Officer of West Sussex Fire and Rescue Service has in her 22 year career covered major incidents such as the London Bridge terror attack, the Finsbury Park terror attack and the aftermath of Grenfell. Last month on Woman’s Hour we discussed the fire service after recent reports hit the headlines of allegations of bullying and sexual harassment of female fire fighters at different services. Last year, an independent review found the London Fire Brigade to be institutionally racist and misogynistic. Just seven percent of fire fighters are women and there are even less in high leadership roles. Sabrina joins Nuala to talk about her new book The Gender Bias The Barriers That Hold Women Back, And How to Break Them, which unpicks why women are judged differently, and how we can tackle those biases, and also tells us whether she thinks the fire service has a problem with women. Sunday marked the end of the European Indoor Championships in Istanbul, a golden weekend for Team GB women. Keely Hodgkinson retained her 800m title before team captain Jazmin Sawyers won a long jump Gold, earning her a first major title of her senior career with a world-leading jump of seven metres. Jazmin now holds the British Indoor record and joins Nuala.What is it like to be a poet, a woman and a performer of poetry at this particular moment in time? Kim Moore aims to answer this question in her new book Are You Judging Me Yet? Poetry and Everyday Sexism. The book contains poems from her collection All the Men I Never Married, for which she won the Forward prize last year. She explains to Nuala McGovern why poetry is the perfect medium for exploring sexism.

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. The self-described feminist, Foreign Secretary James Cleverley, in a moment, on why he is heading to his mother's birthplace off Sierra Leone on International Women's Day. He also gives me a cast-iron guarantee that Britain will not leave the European Convention on Human Rights over the new small boats migration policy. And why he also feels sometimes you have to negotiate with the Taliban. Also, we'll talk about this quote from one of my guests today. When I joined the fire service at 18, only 1% of us were women.

Now I'm a chief fire officer and there are more chiefs called Chris than women of the same rank. I'll be speaking to Dr. Sabrina Cohen-Hatton on how it is to be in that space and also ask her whether the fire service is having its Me Too moment. The poet Kim Moore, she'll also be with us and she says she finds it easier

to broach the topic of everyday sexism through poetry than around a kitchen table with friends. We'll find out why. And the seven metre woman who's only five foot four. I'm talking about Jasmine Sawyers and her record breaking long jump. And what about this from Jazz? Talking about her younger self. For 10 years it's been something I wanted. Over and over, it's been that pushback on my own belief. I felt like I proved my younger self right. I was right to prove my younger self right. My question to you today, when or how have you proved your younger self right? Do send your stories in. Because I was struck by that, but also this from the actor Keira Knightley. She says,

I'm in awe of my 22-year-old self because I'd like a bit more of her back. And it's only by not being like that any longer that I realise how extraordinary it was. There was never an ounce of me that wasn't going to find a way through. Is that

resonating with you this morning? Well, you can text the programme. That number is 84844 on social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website. Or if you want to leave us that story via WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03 700 100 444. Well, as I mentioned, today is International Women's Day. And we mark this by talking to the Foreign Secretary James Cleverley, who's about to launch the UK's first international women and girls strategy while on a visit to Sierra Leone. I caught up with him yesterday as he was preparing for the trip and began by asking if he considers himself to be a feminist. Yes, absolutely. feminist yes absolutely um without hesitation uh and i know so the irony of having a bloke talking about our women and girls strategy on women's hour is not is not lost on me but

absolutely i regard myself as a feminist and i'm very very very very proud of the work that we've collectively done getting this strategy together actually actually. Well, let's talk about it. Your connection to Sierra Leone. Tell our listeners a little bit about that. Sierra Leone is where my mother was from. She's not with us anymore. She passed away about 10 years ago. But that was the land of her birth.

I'm very proud of my Sierra Leonean heritage. And she was, in a very real sense, a trailblazer. So she was born in Bow, which is Sierra Leone's second city, and initially was a teacher. But then in the 1960s, she came to the UK. In the mid-1960s, she came to the UK to study to be a nurse and then went on to be a midwife and things that we're talking about in the in the strategy uh educating women and girls um reproductive health uh and she was an inspiration she was an inspiration she was an icon a bit of a heroine to me uh and that's why i chose to perhaps slightly abuse my authority as the foreign secretary and launched this women and girls strategy in syria in bow

where my mom was from so let's talk about that as you go to bow what are you hoping to achieve or what can the people of bow or sierra leone um in a larger context expect this is about a couple of things and so some of it is about highlighting the work that we are already doing, whether it's on sexual and reproductive health, whether it's on preventing violence against women and girls in conflict. are giving to ourselves to make sure that by 2030 80% of our bilateral programming will have to be able to demonstrate a positive impact for women and girls so it doesn't mean to say that that's going to be spent exclusively on women and girls but it's about making sure that we stay focused on the specific needs of women and girls when we are designing programs, when we are delivering programs, to make sure that our commitment to women and girls is delivered through the action that we take.

You know, some would talk about parts of this strategy, it is funding, as you mentioned, women's groups and different projects, but there has been a cut to the aid budget, gone down from 0.7 to 0.5 percent of gdp some might say isn't it lip service that budget in fact if it were higher would be much more impactful on the most vulnerable women and girls around the world of course we would always want to we would always want to be able to deploy more money. I think it's worth reminding the listeners, your listeners, that despite the fact that we, in response to the economic hit that we got because of COVID, despite that, we are still, both in percentage terms and absolute terms, one of the largest aid donating countries in the world. I'm very, very proud of that of course we would like to do more but we

have taken the circumstances forced upon us by that the economic impact of covid to look differently at how we do things to make sure that all the money that we are spending is done as efficiently as possible that we are maximizing the impact of the money that we spent. These are all very, very good disciplines. And actually, as the UK economy recovers, as our ODA, as our aid budget increases, we can make sure that as well as working smart and working hard, we do so with a bigger budget. So these are good disciplines to impose now so that as our budget increases we know that we will continue to deploy that money really really effectively and change the lives of girls because talking about developments what has happened uh you're a foreign secretary but that role widened since 2020 because it's not just the foreign and commonwealth office

but an enlarged foreign commonwealth and Development Office. And there was a report by your own department last year that found there would be a harmful impact to the merger and also cuts. We've talked about that reduction in the aid budget. Is that something

that you would look at again? Andrew Mitchell, who's the Development Minister, he said aspects of the merger were suboptimal. And one of his priorities was to repair those structural difficulties is that something that you would also like to see happen well actually one of the things that we uh one of the things that we have see is that having our development expertise absolutely interwoven with our diplomatic work

has made a real difference. So as well as the development expenditure, which has helped us, I mean, this strategy is going to build on the 10 million women that we are determined to help us directly off the back of this strategy so in addition to those women that we are helping directly through our diplomatic efforts we can make sure that we are we are helping women more broadly let me give you an example um through our diplomatic work at the un we worked with a number of countries to expel Iran from the Committee on the Status of Women. We thought it was perverse that a country that was abusing its women so

egregiously at home had this status on the world stage. Now, that was diplomatic work. That didn't involve deployment of money. It was about diplomatic work. And that action will have a positive impact for women around the world because we won't have that disruptive voice on that committee. So bringing the two functions together is absolutely key. We will, of course, always look to evolve what we do to make sure that we are most effective. But the merger is here to stay and it's about making sure that we we maximize the opportunity of that merger off the money though coming back and diplomatic i understand what you've outlined there but people uh will want to

know how money how much money is there and how it will be spent so getting back to the aid pot for example the projects you're talking about like ones ones you'll be visiting in Sierra Leone or new initiatives. It's also been eroded, people say, because it hasn't been ring-fenced. I was taking a look at some of the figures

because it's been used to fund refugee arrivals in the UK. The figures vary massively. Some say one billion of UK aid spent on refugees. That's back in 2021. Some say 10%, other figures go up to 30%. And I'm wondering if, you know, that money has been spent within

the UK, how can you expect to have that impact internationally that you're talking about? Let's remind ourselves exactly who we are spending that money on we are spending that money on women and children who are fleeing the conflict in ukraine i know you've done a lot of work in terms of covering the brutality that is happening in ukraine perpetrated by russian troops rape as a as a weapon of war and the brutalization of women and children so those women disproportionately women and children who are fleeing uh conflict are recipients of that money and i think that is completely appropriate of course what we want to do and what we are doing is working very very hard to try and bring that conflict in Ukraine to a speedy conclusion with a Ukrainian victory,

so that we can redeploy our effort and our money on situations around the world. But the recipients of that aid money are absolutely deserving and disproportionately women and children. Yeah, and it depends, of course, where people are coming from. You talk about people from the Ukraine. If we move on to channel migrants, instead, the majority, according to Migration Watch, 87.4 of those would be men that are coming to the UK. We do know that there is a new law set to go before Parliament on Tuesday

that's going to introduce new measures aimed at removing migrants entering the UK on small boats. And it is expected the illegal migration bill will prevent those arriving illegally from claiming asylum or returning to the UK in the future.

The Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, said the bill would push the boundaries of international law without breaking it. We've heard that Prime Minister Rishi Sunak says the small boats policy will not require the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Can you give a cast-iron guarantee that Britain will not leave the European Convention on Human Rights. Can you give a cast iron guarantee that Britain will not leave the European Convention on Human Rights in any circumstance, no matter how much pressure there is from some Conservatives over the issue of small boats and refugees?

Well, I hear you say there's pressure from some Conservatives. Obviously, I deal with this daily. That's not pressure I've received. And you've got the quote there from the Prime Minister. And I think when it comes from the very top of the party in the very top of government you can take that you can take that as rock solid the point is a disproportionate number of those people who are coming into the asylum system are young men and actually when you see the pictures from the places where people are fleeing you see a much broader demographic mix, old people, young people, women and children. Yet the people arriving on our shores are disproportionately young men. We know that many of these people are coming from safe countries.

We know that much of this travel is facilitated by criminal people smuggling gangs some of the most evil people in the world and what we want to do is we want to make sure that we are able to support the people who genuinely need our support and we are a very very generous country over over the last five years we've had 480 000 people who have come to the UK through safe and legal routes and who now enjoy the umbrella of our protection. We're very proud that we are able to do that. But to have the buy-in of the British people to be generous like that, we have to show that we are preventing those people who are abusing our system from doing so. This is about having a robust but fair and humane immigration system that supports the people that deserve and need our support. I mean, some would question the countries that people are coming from, whether they are safe or not.

That is a debate that has raged for many years. But I know you referred back to the Prime Minister, but would you give a cast-iron guarantee that Britain won't leave the European Convention on Human Rights as Foreign Secretary? Well, I'm very happy to echo the words that the Prime Minister has made. We're kind of the founders of the ECHR. It's incredibly important.

As I say, we've got to address, we've got to address this issue. And it's an issue that affects not just the UK, but countries right the way across Europe. We have to address that. But we absolutely take seriously our international obligations and we will abide by those. We will make sure that the actions that we take are compliant with the ECHR. Let me turn with Ukraine and particularly the issue of violence against women and children overseas. You launched a strategy last month outlining how you want to

stamp it out but many would say the reality is actually there's very little that can be done in terms of tackling rape and assault in war. We could think about Ukraine in that instance. We spoke to one of your colleagues, Lord Ahmad, the Prime Minister's Special Representative on Preventing Sexual Violence in Conflict, and heard about the difficulty in dealing with this. I mean, are you hopeful in any way people can be brought to justice, the prosecutions can really take place? Well, I refuse to be fatalistic about this. And the sad truth is that women and girls are still disproportionately affected by conflict that we are seeing in many parts of the world, including in Ukraine. Rape is being systematically used as a weapon of war. We must never, ever allow this to be normalized or for anyone to think that this is just an acceptable byproduct of war.

It is not. It must never be thought of in that way. And we must always pursue the perpetrators. So things like gathering evidence, gathering witness testimonies in a way that doesn't retraumatize them. These things are incredibly important. It will remain tough, but we will remain committed to it because it'sraumatise them. These things are incredibly important. It will remain tough, but we will remain committed to it because it's such an important issue. That is one, of course,

the headlines that there have been over the past year. The other, I suppose, really Afghanistan and the Taliban taking over the country, also banning girls and women from education and certain workplaces as well. Do you agree with negotiating

with the Taliban? Well, we have to make sure that we influence the Taliban. Now, I am realistic. Sadly, I have to be realistic about how much they will listen. But we have found that there are some voices within the Taliban, some leaders within the Taliban who are more reasonable and can be reasoned with and we have to try and find a way of exerting influence there whether we do it directly or whether we do it via countries in the region who also maintain a dialogue with the Taliban but we are not going to abandon the women of Afghanistan. So it is tough, incredibly tough, but we will keep working to protect the hard-fought gains of women in Afghanistan. So that is a yes to negotiating with the Taliban, as I take it? Well, as I say, sometimes we do these things through third parties, but we seek to influence.

And at the moment, we recognize that is incredibly difficult. And there are definitely people within the Taliban that we cannot and will not have any engagement with. But of course, they are the de facto government in Afghanistan at the moment. And therefore, to exert influence, we have to find a way of, as I say, often through intermediaries, exerting influence on the Taliban. On a more general point on government and women, it is International Women's Day, so let's address this.

I've been reading about Rishi Sunak's woman problem, or women problem, as the Daily Mail newspaper calls it. They go on to say that there's a distinct lack of senior government women being allowed or being put forward to go on air well that doesn't chime with the interactions that i've seen with my female colleagues obviously got the home secretary one of the most senior positions in in government the education. I haven't had the opportunity to do an audit of who does or does not

take to the airwaves genuinely. There has been audits though, which I've taken a look at. And it's an awful lot lower for the women than it is for the men within his cabinet. Okay, well look,

I know that we have incredibly effective female colleagues around the cabinet table and throughout the tiers of government, and it's a pleasure working with them. Of course, I'm representing a party that's had three female prime ministers. as i said one of the reasons that i'm going to bow is because of inspirational an inspirational woman in my life and one of the reasons i'm a conservative is because of an inspirational woman in the late 1970s early 1980s so as a party i know we absolutely value the contribution of everybody and we you know we we promote on talent and we have incredibly talented women at every level uh within government and every level within the party i'm very proud of that that was foreign secretary james cleverly talking to me yesterday number 10 i should say dispute

that female ministers are not making it onto the airwaves you may have heard uh this morning suella braverman she was speaking on the Today programme as part of what is believed to be her first ever broadcast round as Home Secretary. I was asking you before that interview, when or how have you proved your younger self right? That was on the heels of Jazz Sawyer's and Keira Knightley's comments. I asked you to send your stories in and you have. Kirsty, here she is. She says, It has been my lifelong dream to become an equine vet.

I applied to university and was rejected two years in a row before finally achieving a place at the University of Cambridge. Kirsty, well done. It was amazing to finally chase my dream, albeit as the proud owner of nine rejections from various vet schools. I happily graduated four years ago and I'm now working for one of the top hospitals in the UK. Like Keira Knightley I sometimes wish I had that I had more of my 22 year old self but it is important to look back and see

how far we have come. Here's another from Mary in Suffolk. Looking back I feel really proud of her. I'm hugely dyslexic and struggled a great deal at school. My teacher told my mother that I would struggle to work the till at the supermarket and she didn't know what else she could do for me. I never let that negativity stop me. The younger me seemed to be impervious to it. And I kept striving despite my teachers, but I did have the support of my mum. I now work for myself. I'm actually pretty successful.

I definitely would struggle to work a till, but I have other skills that school did not foster. I'm so proud of my younger self for never giving up. I wish I could show her a picture of me now. Lovely stories coming in. Let us turn to my next guest, Dr. Sabrina Cone-Hatton, one of the most senior firefighters in the UK, the current chief fire Officer of West Sussex Fire and Rescue Service. And she has, in her 22-year career, covered major incidents such as the London Bridge terror attack, the Finsbury Park terror attack and the aftermath of Grenfell. Last month on Woman's Hour,

we discussed the fire service after recent allegations of bullying and sexual harassment of female firefighters at some services. Last year, an independent review found the London Fire Brigade to be institutionally racist and misogynistic. Just 7% of firefighters are women and there are even less in high leadership roles. Sabrina joins me now to talk about her new book, The Gender

Bias, the barriers that hold women back and also how to break them. And it unpicks why women are judged differently and how we can tackle those biases. But first, does the fire service have a problem with its culture, in particular women, Sabrina? And welcome. Morning. And it's a really good question. I think that like all industries, we have challenges. And what I would say, first and foremost, is that those women that have come forward to share their experiences are incredibly brave. And I'm so proud of them for doing it. And whilst those experiences are really difficult to hear, they're people's experiences and we have to do something about that. And so whilst I think that the fire service that I serve in today feels very, very different to the one that I joined 22 years ago. We still have a lot more work to do, but the service is a microcosm of wider society.

And if you ask me, I think that we've got a lot of work to do as a wider society as well. That's interesting. It's actually you're echoing what one of my guests yesterday, Harriet Wistrick, had said about police culture very much reflecting society. We did have Nazir Afzal on Woman's Hour last month and he carried out the review into the London Fire Brigade and he told us since his report he'd heard stories from other female firefighters across the country. One story that stuck with us was he was even told that equipment had been tampered with when they complained

and others were told to watch themselves. Have you heard such stories? Well, I read the report with interest and I'm really pleased that Nazir had brought those stories to the surface because it's important that they're heard. And I think that whilst those stories are quite extreme, we shouldn't have to wait for extreme stories to be shot because I think that we've got a huge amount more to do and I think one of the strengths that the fire service has is you're working in a small team and you become you can become very close-knit and that can make a stronger team and you can do things in really challenging circumstances that you might feel that you

can't do on your own but the downside to that is if you don't fit within that team, it can be really difficult to break through. And I've been very open about my own experiences in the past in the service, and I haven't always felt welcomed, particularly when I first joined. But I also recognise that there's been a huge amount of work that's been done, and we are definitely moving in the right direction. But what I would say is it's so easy, isn't it, to think of these as a few bad apples. And what I want to try to do is create a culture where bad apples can't sit and rot. Because ultimately, what I know is that there are 40,000 firefighters throughout the UK, many of whom have been utterly shocked and dismayed at some of the stories that they've heard, and who wear their

uniform with pride and a right to do so. However, whilst there is even one person having this kind of experience, it's one person too many. And it's not down to those individuals to be the ones who have to call it out. We should all be doing that. So we'll talk about some of the solutions. But getting back to Nazir Asal, he thought this was really the fire service's me-too moment. Is that how you see this point in time?

I really hope it is. I really hope it is. And I think there have been a number of industries that have had similar moments. And I think what this has provided is a real impetus to have a really solid discussion around it. And I don't think that it should take a single story for us to need to do this. I think that this should have been a conversation that we were having a long time ago, but I am heartened. I am genuinely heartened by some of the work that's going on. When I speak to other senior colleagues around the country, they've also been utterly dismayed by some of the stories that have come through and are genuinely keen to make a difference. The key is not just being genuinely keen to do it,

but actually taking action to make sure that we shift the dial and move further forwards. And I know that there are people committed to doing that. Yeah, it's interesting because some of it is culture and changing behaviours. But I know where you are, there's also been physical changes, like trying to design your way out of a problem. Talk us through what that was when it came to the locker room, for example. Yeah, so traditionally we'll have locker rooms and they're supposed to be unisex locker rooms and you're not supposed to get changed in there. You're supposed to go to another area to get changed in private. But when you are in a predominantly male dominated environment, what

you find is people just get a bit lazy and they get changed in the locker rooms. And so, so many times it's happened to me, it's happened to other women, it's happened to lots of other people. You walk in and all of a sudden you're met with a sight that you really don't need to see. And so actually that then makes it a difficult space, doesn't it? It's embarrassing, it's embarrassing for them, it's embarrassing for you, but frankly, it shouldn't happen in the first place. So we are designing a new training centre at the moment. We're building it at the moment. And we've looked at ways that we can try to design out some of the cultural problems so that we're not relying on human behaviour all the time. And so our locker room, for example, rather than it being in a self-contained room,

but then private spaces where you go off and get changed, rather than just having a self-contained wall, we're putting a glass wall up. So you can't get changed in there because everyone walking past will see you getting changed. You have to go into a private area to get changed. So it just removes that temptation and that element of human behaviour and human error that can creep in. And I think that there are really good examples of being able to design out problems. However, it does take money. And as a public service, we haven't always got the resources that we might particularly want or need. So there are challenges around that. We're fortunate to be in a position where we're designing a station

from scratch. Not everybody has the same luxury in doing that. And so then there's ways that you might be able to retrofit and think more broadly outside of the box about how you can design out some of those other problems in other ways as well. I mean, some might say, why not just tell the fellas, don't get changed there, you're making people uncomfortable. Well, that's been done. And what, it didn't work? But I think that it's too easy when you're trying to do something quickly, when it's only guys there to just get changed there. And once you do it once, and it's okay, when you're trying to do something quickly when it's only guys there to just get changed there and once you do it once and it's okay it happens again because what we're

dealing with here is human beings and with human beings comes human error and so I think if you can remove that possibility in its entirety well that's even better because there's no margin for error it's an interesting one I'll be curious what my listeners think about that. It's 84844. You are just a handful of female chief fire officers. I was seeing on your book what there's more guys called Chris that are chief fire officers than women. Yeah, that's right.

The last count, they were the same number of Johns as well. That is really quite something. But, you know, you do say that women are judged differently and you're working to try and tackle those biases. Talk us through the example that you have in your book of having to tell a guy at work that his work basically wasn't up to scratch and how you feel the gender differences kind of played into those interactions yeah this was a really interesting one so I worked with a colleague and in the book I refer to him as Joe and he was really really good I championed him for a long time and he was going through a promotion process and at the same time I needed him to write a business case for me for a community project and it came in the day before it was due to be presented which was exceedingly late anyway and it just wasn't up to standard so I had to bounce it back to him

and we had a conversation about this and he got really cross with me for criticizing him to the point where then he started to behave in a way that was quite unfortunate he would brief against me have those toxic corridor conversations, didn't want to take any kind of direction for me. I kind of got the impression he thought that he was entitled to my job rather than me. And it really bothered me at the time. And I'd reflected on it. I thought, well, have I dealt with it? Okay. Did I say the right thing? Was I a bit hard on him? And it was when I started to write the book and I read about all the research around this that I started to realise that this is actually a thing. This is a phenomenon. And the rationale for it might be a bit more human than you think.

And so there's one school of thought that recognises that if somebody's self-esteem is threatened, then to protect that, they will do down the other person. And in a gendered context, they'll draw on a negative gendered stereotype that they might not have otherwise used to be able to essentially discredit the criticiser. And when I was looking at the research, there's some really interesting stuff about this. So for example, there was one study that looked at teachers that were giving out grades, male and female teachers, about 200 of which. And when the women teachers gave out good grades, everything was fine. But when they gave out poor grades, they were judged more negatively by their students. The same phenomenon didn't happen with the men. And there's a whole host of studies that looked at this and even one that looked at women that was providing criticism, evaluated criticism to someone. And when those people received it afterwards,

they rated the women and the male evaluators. And even though they were reading off the same script, they all viewed the women evaluators more negatively and didn't think that they had as much credibility. So what do you do with that? How do you tackle it either in the case of Jo or, you know, I'm sure it might be something that uh somebody listening has come up against well do you know one of the things that i discovered when i was

researching this book is women are just as likely to have these biases as men just because we experience detriment from them doesn't mean we're any less likely to hold them and it happens because of the way that our brains categorize information. We absorb social information all the time that reinforces our categories, our mental files, if you like, of women and men and gender roles. So actually, it could be very subtle, some of the experiences that we have, which makes it challenging, but not impossible to deal with. So one really elegant study looked at a woman called Heidi Roysen, who was an amazing businesswoman. And a professor at Harvard Business School made a case study of her and decided to create two versions and gave it to his students. Half had Heidi Roysen, the other half had Howard Roysen.

That was the sole difference. And when he surveyed them afterwards, they all thought Howard was an inspirational leader. Everybody wanted to work for him. But Heidi, they thought she was very cold, very political, very out for herself and no one trusted her. The only difference was the name. So coming back to your point about what we can do. Nobody would have stood by the water cooler that day and said, I really don't trust Heidi because she's a woman. But the very reason they were feeling negative about her was simply because they were drawing on that negative gendered stereotype. So I think to change this, we all

have to be more open about our own biases. And we have to move away from the point where I think that people feel ashamed to have biases, or there's blame associated with it, because we have to be able to recognise it in ourselves to be able to do something different about that. I think language is hugely powerful. And so just being cognisant of that, I think will really help us to start to shift the dial and think about things differently. So in those examples, women also were looking at other women negatively? Yes, yes, absolutely. It was fascinating, absolutely fascinating writing this book. There were so many examples. In fact, this one, you'll love this. There was one that looked at something called the implicit association test. So I say you'll love this. I love this. So everyone's

got to love it, right? The implicit association test essentially looks at your unconscious biases, how you might link two things together in your mental files well below the level of consciousness. And in one study, despite 83 percent of the respondents being women and 86 percent identifying as feminists, there was still an unconscious bias linking men with leadership and women with support roles even though that's a group of people who would consciously and rationally argue well against that you can see how powerful these messages that we're absorbing through the media through our everyday experiences through everything that we do they're so powerful and we absorb them and they inform our mental categories which become our biases which become our frames of reference and our shortcuts that we go to every single day to navigate a dynamically changing world. But it feels almost insurmountable when you put it that way. And also about, you know, putting out there, accepting your biases.

I feel with what I've read with some of the fire services that the men are way too open about their biases already. And I don't know, I'm trying to see exactly how that would turn into a resolution of this culture problem that there is with women. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's OK to have biases and we should all go out and embrace them tomorrow. I'm talking about being open about the fact that you might have one and then challenging yourself to do something differently. It's not about accepting your biases. It's about recognising them and being open to being challenged and doing something differently about it. And I think that has to be the key. But people will only recognise

it within themselves without being defensive or pushing back against something or saying, no, it's all other people. It can't possibly be me if unless we make it OK to talk about it and really, really challenge ourselves as well. Every single one of us to be able to unpick what our unconscious categories tell us and what we do as a result of that. I have a question for you. I've been putting out to my listeners which is about your younger self. When or how have you proved your younger self right? Oh that's a wonderful question. Well I had a very different start in life. I actually experienced homelessness when I was 15 nearly, up until the age of 18. And it was only when secure accommodation became a reality for me that I started to think

about the future. And that's when I started to think about the fire service. And everyone I said that I'd like to join the fire service to laughed at me. They said I was too small, I'd get in the way. It was ridiculous. It's not for me. Even the optician, my eyes were borderline because he used to have to pass eye tests when I joined. Even the optician told me to give it up and that I would never make it. I'd never make the cut, but I didn't give up. I carried on. I think I applied to about 33 different fire and rescue services. 33? Yeah, yeah. I really, really went for it because it would take so long.

When I joined joined there were 9,000 applicants for about 12 jobs and the process would take so long that to wait to get to the end of one and then start another would have it just wouldn't have worked so I just sent applications off everywhere um and eventually got my dream job and joined the fire service and I look back now 22 years later and I think do you know what I'm really glad I didn't listen to them I'm really glad that I persevered because as much as we've got challenges we've also got amazing opportunities and some incredible people and some awesome women and for me the opportunity to do something to make that a bit better that

far outweighs any challenge I've ever experienced. Dr Sabrina Cohen-Hatton, one of the most senior firefighters in the UK. Her new book is The Gender Bias, The Barriers That Hold Women Back and How to Break Them. Thank you. Now, we're also talking about the women who inspire you. Ahead of International Women's Day 2023, we asked some of our most well-known guests about the women who've made a huge impact on their lives and we've made a lovely video. So maybe you want to check it out. Head to our social media accounts BBC Women's Hour to watch it.

Some of the people that you will see there, we have Gina Davis for example. We also have Motsi Mabuse. We've Mel Gedroich and others picked. Text us 84844 text charged at the standard message rate on social Mabuse. We've Mel Gedroich and others picked. Text us 84844. Text charged at the standard message rate

on social media. It's at BBC Women's Hour. Of course, you can email us through our website. One more. Anastasia, I have cerebral palsy. I was told I would never get to university when one is constantly told that it is soul-destroying. I eventually attended university. I now have my degree in

philosophy. Thank you, Anastasia, for getting in touch with Women's Hour, with your stories, which leads me to my next guest. Because Sunday marked the end of the European Indoor Championships in Istanbul, a golden weekend for Team GB's women. It saw Céilí Hutchinson retain her 800m title

before the team captain, Jasmine Sawyers, won a stunning long jump gold, earning her the first major title of her senior career. That jump, seven metres. Record breaking, world leading. And Jazz, who now holds the British indoor record, joins me on the line. I've watched your win a few times now. Such a feel good moment. And your reaction as well.

I just loved it. Such, what would I say, an upbeat and uplifting moment. How are you feeling today? I'm feeling great. Still feeling great. Still sort of riding the high from the weekend. The reaction, I sort of laugh when I watch it back. In the studio, as it was happening,

Gabby Logan and Denise Lewis were saying, she's just got no poker face whatsoever. And it's true. I can't hold in what I'm feeling, even out on the track. And yeah, I was really, really enjoying that moment. Yes, well, we all were. And I loved the hug with Keely as well, I have to say. I was like, go for it, female camaraderie.

Oh, Keely abandoned her own interview to come and give me a hug. I mean, Keely's somebody that while she's only just turned 21, she's been a big inspiration to me on the team. And she's a friend. And to have a friend right out there in a moment that's so important to me, it's a real pivotal moment in my career. It was special for me for her to be able to come over and give me a hug. So I appreciated that. So the seven metres, meters I also was looking you're five foot four and five foot three

that information keeps floating around I did double check because I thought maybe I don't know and I've gained an inch but no unfortunately five foot three and me I'm a total novice learning about the long jump but I would have thought being taller would be more useful, but you talked me through it because you also changed your technique, I know, this winter. Yes. So being taller seems to generally be more useful because most long jumpers are much taller than me. There are a few of us on the circuit that are sort of around the 5'3 to 5'6 mark, but not many. Most are much, much taller. it just helps to have longer levers when you're trying to launch through the air like that um but the key component for for long jump is

a lot of speed so being able to take off at high speeds um and then have that sort of springy ability off the ground i started out as a gymnast and so i think that is where my spring came from um and i did have a few people more than a few, say that they thought at 5'3", there was no way that I would maybe I'll get over 6'80". But there's no way that I can be sort of a proper world class long jumper. But I disagreed. Yes, you disagreed. And I love this disagreement because when I was watching your interview afterwards you knew it was there the seven meter jump you were kind of waiting for it to happen

not totally expecting it on that day if I have that correct but this unwavering self-belief where does that come from um part of it came from a foul jump that I had uh when I was 18 um where I it was over the plasticine um but I landed at seven meters and so I've known since then that I'm physically capable of it but over the last 10 years um I haven't managed to replicate it um and even before that happened I just thought I could do it it's one of those things that I'd always wanted to go to the Olympics and not just go I wanted to win and so I thought okay how what you know what how far do I need to jump to do this um and seven meters looked like a sort of good target there and I always thought that that was possible for me um and it's it's the thing we talk about about being

young and just having belief for no good reason. But I did. And I thought, well, why shouldn't I be good enough to do this? If I work, if I put in the hours, I think I can achieve that. And that just stuck with me despite not doing it for so long. See, that's the other bit that I find really interesting about you, Jazz, is that, yes, it happened, so you knew it could, but it's been quite a long wait

for that to be able to sustain that self-belief. And also, you know, if we take a look at some of the people you were competing against, right, they're some of the best in the world, but you just hold your nerve and you made it happen.

I'm just wondering what's going through your head, even as you're making that run, you know, that very speedy run, before you actually take off and leap through the air. So in the moment, I'm not thinking about a distance. I've gone through that over the years where I would focus too intently

on how far I was trying to jump. And then you start to, you kind of try too hard. It's possible to try too hard. You stop focusing on exactly how to do it and you just think about the outcome. So what I was actually thinking about, um, was how I was running physically, how my feet were striking the ground, making sure that I was continuing my speed through my takeoff. Um, the technique that I use, I kind of run through the air. Um, so as I'm sprinting down the runway, once I take off the movement of running keeps happening through the air. So as I'm sprinting down the runway, once I take off, the movement of running keeps happening through the air. So I'm just thinking, keep running, keep running,

keep sprint. And I talk to myself on the runway. So you'll see if you watch a video of me standing on the runway before I jump, I'm always saying something. Well, obviously you listened. And it worked. But you know, for people are getting uh to know you as well um there was a brief foray into bobsledding for a bit a singing appearance on the voice multi-talented woman it's been a busy time i uh i have a tendency to just say yes to things which um sometimes has me a little too busy but a lot of the time just opens, opens doors that gives me great opportunities. So the bobsleigh, I was training at the time as a heptathlete. And that's how I started my sporting, my self-serious sporting life as a combined event.

I wanted to be a heptathlete. And I had just moved, just got a scholarship to go and train full time at a boarding school. And because it was a sports boarding school when British bobsleigh were looking for athletes for the youth olympics they turned up at that school saying look we're scouting um our criteria is a 30 meter sprint a standing high jump and a standing long jump which is the stuff I was doing anyway for my heptathlon and I thought well that just sounds fun doesn't it um and decided to to get involved I thought cool well, that just sounds fun, doesn't it? And decided to get involved. I thought, cool runnings is a, people do sprints and then go over to bobsleigh. That was a true story.

So I'll give it a go. And I did and I made the team. And Misha McNeil and I ended up going to the Winter Youth Olympics in 2012 and winning a silver medal. Which so much fun. Terrifying, I've got to say. So much fun. Rather you than me. but I love the story. You know, it's interesting that you talk there about some of the opportunities.

The government have created, we're seeing today, a £600 million package for schools to create equal opportunities for girls. So basically they'll need to offer equal access to sports and a minimum of two hours of physical education per week. What sort of a difference do you think something like that makes? I think that can be massive. We lose so many young women from sport in those sort of school years. And some of that could be because they're not getting access to the sports that they could love.

You know, not every sport is for everybody, but i think there is a sport for everyone and so the idea that young women will now get the chance to do all the same sports as young men um i hope and really believe that that will keep more women in sport you know um your your younger self would be very proud of you now i have to say say, keeping the faith. And thank you for spending some time with us. We are asking, Jazz, our listeners today, you know, about their younger self and, you know, how they would have proven them right just as you did as well. And we're getting lots of stories in. So thank you for that, for being the catalyst for some of the stories

we're getting on Woman's Hour today. That is Jasmine Soares, who won the stunning long jump gold just on Sunday. One of your stories, Lee says, I always told myself as a very young woman that I would never get married. At 60, I never have,

despite societal pressure. I'm a strong person, independent, self-sufficient, creative and caring. There needs to be less pressure on people. Not all of us are meant to be in a couple. Thanks so much for that, Lee. Keep your stories coming, 84844,

as we talk about exactly what you tell your younger self, or what your younger self would tell you, I suppose is the better way of putting it, kind of when you think back, and whether you want a little bit of her still, as Ciara Knightley talked about. But Jasmine said, you know, she held the belief, stayed with it, and look where she is now. I want to turn on to poetry next. What is it like to be

a poet, a woman, and a performer of poetry in this particular moment in time? Well, Kim Moore aims to answer this question in her new book, Are You Judging Me Yet? Poetry and Everyday Sexism. It's threaded through with poems from her collection, All the Men I Never Married. There's one for you, Lee, who just got in touch, for which she won the Forward Prize last year. In part, it examines why poetry is the perfect medium for exploring sexism. Kim Moore, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. So why did you want to examine everyday sexism? And I'm also curious about why through poetry?

I think I originally I went to a reading with Claudia Rankine and when she read from her book Citizen, which looks at experiences of racism and it completely changed how I felt about, how I thought about racism. And that kind of, yeah, that was like an eye-opener for me because I thought if poetry can be transformative like that and it can change the way I think and feel about it

and the way I'm going to behave in future, I want to try and do that with writing about sexism. Because I was struck, you talked about that it's easier to broach it through poetry than perhaps sitting around a kitchen table with friends. Why? I always think of the brilliant Sarah Ahmed. She just got a new book out, The Feminist Killjoy.

I think you become the feminist killjoy if you bring something up around a table with friends. Yeah, sometimes I think it can kind of stop conversations or it's often minimised or sometimes you can be told that you're imagining it or, oh, it's not a big deal, it gets brushed over. Whereas when you put that experience in the space of a poem, the white space and kind of elevates it, I think, to an important moment. Hopefully, if it's a good poem, like a moment of epiphany, it transforms it. Well, why don't we move on to one of your poems?

And as I mentioned from the collection, All the Men I Never Married, going through the book. This one about the taxi driver. Yeah, so this is All the Men I Never Married. I've lost my page.

That's all right. Take your time. Because you're good? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this was coming back from a festival that I was reading at. All the men I never married, number 13. Although we've only just met, he's already telling me that no, my suitcase isn't heavy at at all as he lifts it with one hand into the boot he's not even reached the end of the road and he's already telling me i have a crazy soul

that he can tell how crazy i am he asks me do i know what he means and i smile and pretend that i don't he says all the women he knows who are artists or poets or musicians are crazy. Crazy, crazy, crazy, he says, and I wish I'd told him I was an accountant instead. But on he goes, taking his eyes off the road to tell me all women who are artists are crazy in bed. Do I know what he means? They want to try crazy things in the bedroom. If he stops the car, I could open the door and run, or pull out my phone and pretend someone is calling, or ask him politely what's wrong.

I could laugh at the next thing he says while the voice in my head whispers that somehow I've led him on, that I was asking for it. I remember a train journey, everyone crammed in and a stranger's penis pressed against my leg, convincing myself I was imagining it or he couldn't help it. Where else in the place could he put it? When we pull up at the airport, my arm flings open the door before I give it permission. My left leg finds the pavement before I can think.

Still, I turn back to give him a tip. And he's laughing, saying, relax, just relax. And I know that he knows I'm afraid, that I've been afraid all my life. But it's not this that makes me ashamed. Wow, I think so much of that will resonate with our listeners. What is it that makes you ashamed? I think it was something about the complicity of that moment of that kind of pretense that nothing that nothing was wrong um and also

um i think it's quite a complicated thing because i think nothing you know nothing really bad happened and that was a survival mechanism as well and i often give my i used to give myself quite a hard time about not responding in the correct way or the best way in those situations but now I try and give myself some grace and think you know I got out of it and it was you know I kept myself safe. That word nothing or nothingness I know you've thought about that quite deeply as well when it comes to everyday sexism and its place in poetry. Yeah so I think like maybe years before many years ago I wouldn't have told anyone that

story I just thought it's just one of those awful things that's over and just move on because um but it was it was deciding to write poems about it that made me realize that it was bigger than it was so often I would minimize those moments and think and again that's a coping mechanism just think oh it's it's nothing um it's not even important enough to tell because it's so every day it happens you know it happens all the time um but the act of writing the poem made me realize a lot of the things I was minimizing or even calling sexism were not really like sexism is such a funny word like sometimes I would set out to write about a moment of sexism and it would actually through the poem I would think that's not sexism that's an assault

that that happened to me to my body but I dismissed it or minimized it so yeah the word nothing um very very powerful um you put yourself out there you, you are doing your poetry readings, which are so interesting to read about as well. Tell us about performing in that space and the responses that you get from women and men. Yes, I get lots of, I was feeling guilty the other day because I was thinking I could have written about some of the nice, more about some of the nicer responses. So I do get a lot of supportive responses and lovely conversations with people but um through the performing of as i was writing the poems about sexism i would start performing them as part of the editing process really and then um would get kind of quite strange strange reactions from some from some mainly men but some women as well so um for example so i've had so i talk about in the book about a woman who said oh

you know what you're doing you know exactly what you're doing reading poems with you about men with your legs out um i've had men come up to me and say that poem about sexism made me feel guilty for being a man um i've had men come up to me after a reading and say that the poem was objectifying men um that's that's been used quite a few quite a few times and i think it's just then just not used to men being looked at um i've had a man i've even um so i was giving a lecture about my phd topic which was everyday sexism and a man interrupted to tell me that sexism doesn't exist which i thought was quite ironic and beautiful almost Almost a performance piece.

Yeah, and I started, like, through the PhD, I started to enjoy those moments. Instead of the first time it happened, I got really defensive and really upset. And then I started to reflect on those feelings. And after that, and I wrote about it, and then I started to really enjoy those moments and think, good, I'm going to get another 3,000 words

of my thesis out of you. But what about because you're talking about sexism at times, intimate moments of your life, like you shared with that poem, but other times performing poems about desire also in that same space? Yeah, so I think the book started, it started with a poem, a list poem of ex-boyfriends. I was kind of bored and just kind of messing around and I really enjoyed writing this list poem. And then the first time I performed that poem, I got heckled by a woman in the audience. The poem has a line, are you surprised? Are you judging me yet? And a woman shouted out, yes. And that kind of made me realise that there is a connection between female desire and sexism

which would be interesting to explore, that often reading poems about men, ex-boyfriends or plurally, kind of uncovers sexism in the room. It's so interesting. The poetry is fabulous. Thank you so much for coming in to us, Kim Moore. Her new book is Are You Judging Me Yet? Poetry and Everyday Sexism.

I want to thank everybody who's got in touch, talking about proving your younger self right. Lovely to have your stories coming in. I also want to let you know that tomorrow on Woman's Hour, actor Emily Watson will be joining Krupapadi to talk about her new film, God's Creatures, and its theme, How Far a Mother Will Go to Protect Her Son. I instead will see you next Monday.

Thanks for spending some time with us today. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. Hello, I'm Brian Cox and we are back for season 26 of The Infinite Monkey Cage. And we begin, where do we begin, Robin? We start in a galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. It's Australia.

Oh, OK, Australia then. It felt like a galaxy to me, but we were in Australia where we talked about, well, spiders. You were scared of spiders. I wasn't actually scared of spiders, but you'll hear many trailers for this thing where they say, I wasn't scared of spiders.

We also did astronomy, actually, in Australia, which is fantastic. And then we came back to the UK and we had guests like Ross Noble, Susan Calliman, Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Fryiman, Russell Kane, Ed Byrne, Joe Brand, Sally Gunnell. Yeah, Anna Frye, Sue Black, Randa Monroe and we found out, amongst other things,

how to commit the perfect murder. Which still hasn't really worked for me because I'm still upset at him. Listen on BBC Sounds. What a great platform. It is wonderful, isn't it? Robbie Nims and Professor Cox. I'd leave that poor pussy alone in its box. That cat may be as dead as a rat. You can wage in the infinite monkey cage.

I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.