Woman's Hour - Foreign Secretary Liz Truss MP on Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe's release

Episode Date: March 17, 2022

As Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe comes home after six years in Iranian detention, Emma speaks to the Foreign Secretary Liz Truss MP about what it took to secure her release along with another British-Iranian hostage Anoosheh Ashoori.

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning and welcome to the programme. She is back. She is free. After six long years of being imprisoned in Iran, the day has dawned. At one o'clock this morning, Nazanin Zaghari RatRatcliffe touched down on British soil to be reunited with her husband and biggest champion, Richard, and their seven-year-old daughter, Gabriella.

This is the sound of Nazanin as she arrived and embraced her child at RAF Bryson Orton in Oxfordshire. I love you. I love you. I love you. I love you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe reunited with her daughter Gabriella back in her arms and with Richard, her husband and long-time freedom campaigner. That clip is from the Instagram account of Alika Ashuri, the daughter of Anousheh Ashuri, a fellow British Iranian who was also freed yesterday and flew back with Nazanin.

We've been in touch with Richard Ratcliffe, a man I've had the privilege of speaking to many times over the years, and the family are looking forward to starting a more normal chapter and focusing on recovery. Nazanin, a British-Iranian charity worker, was arrested in Iran in 2016 while visiting her parents and has spent six years in detention after being convicted of plotting to overthrow the Iranian government, charges she has always denied. Well, my first guest this morning was on the tarmac to greet Nazanin, Foreign Secretary and Women's Minister Liz Truss. Good morning.

Good morning, Emma. Thank you for joining us today. What was that moment like, meeting Nazanin and Anousheh? It was an incredible moment. We'd all been waiting at the airport for the plane to land. And there was a long, long process of getting the plane steps onto the plane and watching them come off for the first time was very, very emotional. And seeing the family's reactions was incredible. And of course, I've spoken to both Nazanin and Anousheh during their detention, but I've never met them before.

And I just thought it was incredible that despite the huge ordeal they've gone through and their family had gone through, they were both so positive and in such great spirits after such a long flight and such a long journey to be at this point. And Nazanin seemed like that to you. I was wondering about your exchange and what was said. Well, she, I mean, it was a very, very emotional moment with her and her daughter. And, you know, I've got two daughters and I can't imagine what it's like to be separated uh from them for for so long and she was very very gracious uh clearly uh very very delighted to be reunited with her family and I think looking forward to the next stage but I think everybody everybody at the airport was also still stumped we'd finally seen her and Anousheh released I mean it has been a very very drawn out period and it's been you, in the last few days, a very touch and go process. And just to see it come to fruition, I think for everybody has been, you know, we're all still slightly in shock. yesterday as part of your statement that the UK had paid a decades-old debt of nearly £400 million

to Iran relating to a contract for undelivered tanks. This is something Richard Ratcliffe has been asking for for the last six years. So why now? Well, I'm very clear that this is legitimate debt that the UK government did owe the Iranian government and that we needed to resolve that issue. I met my counterpart, the Iranian minister, Abdullian, in September in New York at the UN General Assembly. It was in the first week of the job. And we both agreed that there were these longstanding issues, the unfair detention of British citizens, the unpaid debt by the United Kingdom. And we needed to work to resolve these issues for the betterment of our citizens. And my priority has

been securing the release of our citizens and also paying the debt, which... But it's striking to people, if I may, it was part of your statement yesterday. And the concern is it could be perceived as a ransom. And what precedent that might set? Well, you asked me, Emma, why it was so difficult to pay the debts. And the answer is, of course, that Iran is a heavily sanctioned country. So it is not simple to transfer money and to pay debts in the way that it would be with a standard partner that the UK deals with all the time. So that is why it was a difficult process. And to make sure that money was going to be spent on humanitarian purposes was also extremely important to be able to comply with international law.

So those types of issues do take time to resolve. And I was determined, as Foreign Secretary, to find a route that we could do that. And we did examine lots of different routes. Our officials have worked incredibly hard on this. I mean, I deployed team officials to Tehran on several occasions. Yes, no, no, no. And no one's doubting that. But what I actually asked was why now? And one of the first questions that came in from a listener when I said you were a guest on the programme this morning is, why couldn't you have just paid this debt six years ago to save her going through this ordeal?

And another listener said, would Nazanin be free this morning without the war in Ukraine? Do we now need friends with oil? Well, first of all, this debt was over 40 years old. So you could ask the question why the UK government hasn't paid it for 40 years, which I think is a is a fair question. what I've done is seek to, within the levers I have, to pay that debt as soon as we possibly can. And we've now discharged that duty. And this negotiation... So it's not linked to Ukraine, if I could just come in on that.

To be absolutely clear, this negotiation, I kicked it off with the new Iranian government. So I was new in my job as foreign secretary. Minister Abdullian was new in his job in Iran. We met in September in New York and we agreed to kick off the negotiation process at that moment. And these negotiation processes are complex. It is difficult to transfer money to a country that is heavily sanctioned. Totally understand that point. It's about the timing. dealing with but this is a completely separate issue about our long-standing debt to Iran

and of course about the unfairly detained British citizens and that's something I've worked on since September and you know believe me I was pushing as hard as I could to get it done as quickly as I could because I knew that every day Nazanin and Anousheh were in detention was another terrible day for them and their families. So we pushed it as hard and fast as we could. Well, that's not the feeling. That's not the feeling when I've been interviewing Richard Ratcliffe over the years. I've gone back through some of the things that he said. I take your point. You've only been in post a relatively short time as Foreign Secretary compared to what's been going on for the last six years. Richard has described Nazanin as a chess piece in a wider political

game. He's talked about being fobbed off with junior ministers. I wanted to ask you as well, because he's consistently been told also, apparently by the Foreign Office, he's been asked to be quiet about the link between British prisoners and this debt. I mean, I'm talking about from 2017, 2016. That's when it's been going on from. It's not just since, of course, you've been in post. Do you think Richard Radcliffe has been treated well by your government and by the Foreign Office and by extension Nazanin? Well, Richard Radcliffe's an incredibly courageous man

who has run a very effective campaign highlighting the plight of Nazanin and his families and other other detaining people I have huge admiration for him and he was sitting in the gallery yesterday when I gave my statement to parliament and I talked to him of course yesterday at the airport as well and And I've been in regular touch. I think the issue about dealing with this as a government minister is necessarily quite a lot of the work I have to do is confidential. So, for example, the payment route we have found is subject to a confidentiality clause between us and the Iranians. So I cannot reveal the details of it. And these negotiations are often extremely delicate.

They involve different parts of different governments. We also had help, of course, in conveying the detainees from our Amani friends. We were working with them. So necessarily, I wasn't able to make public everything I was doing. But I'm not just talking about you. I'm talking about your predecessors in the post and how that your government, we've had a conservative government for 12 years now, and you've been a minister for most of that time to remind our listeners, one of your predecessors, who's now the prime minister, Boris Johnson, told a parliamentary committee that Nazanin was in Tehran training journalists in 2016 at the time of her arrest. She was not. Four days later, she was summoned to an unscheduled court hearing where his comments were cited as proof

she was engaged in propaganda against the regime. A few days after that, she found lumps in her breasts. She saw a medical specialist and her family said she was on the verge of a mental breakdown. That was five years ago at the hands of the foreign secretary, now the prime minister. Has Boris Johnson personally apologised to Nazanin about his serious error since she's been freed. I think we should be clear at whose hands this is. It is the responsibility of the Iranian government who unfairly detained British citizens. But you can't control them. What you can control is our response as a government and how we have helped or not Nazanin Zaghari Ratcliffe. Well, I know the Prime Minister and my other predecessors

have absolutely worked as hard as they can to get this issue resolved. And please don't underestimate the complexity of some of the issues that we have been dealing with and sorting out. I'm not doing that at all. And I think it's really important to explain that. But my question was, my question was, Mr. Johnson, has he spoken to Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe since she's been freed? Because now this is the opportunity for him to apologise to her, not just to the family publicly and to Richard. Well, look, Nazanin has only just arrived back

in the United Kingdom. I was there at the airport last night at 1am meeting her and I'm sure she's getting some sleep and spending time with her family. I'm sure the Prime Minister would be very keen to speak to Nazanin. But the important thing now is that we give the family some privacy. We allow them to resettle back into the united kingdom you know nazanin has been through a terrible uh terrible ordeal but you know the prime minister has very much supported me and the work i've been doing to get this issue sorted out it is of key concern to him and it's of it's been of key concern to me it's something i made people people people are not doubting what you're saying about your role, but they do want to know about that link and the impact that that had, which is why I'm asking the question if you knew if they'd spoken. It sounds like not yet, but perhaps that will be a conversation.

You say you're spending a lot of... She's only arrived at 1am and I suspect she is currently asleep or... I didn't necessarily mean... Sorry, forgive me. I didn't necessarily mean since 1am. I meant yesterday, of course, because she was in Oman and there were communications happening. So I thought there could have been an opportunity, but I accept she is probably and rightly having some deserved rest at the moment.

You mentioned, of course, Ukraine. You are the Foreign Secretary. In one of the worst days of violence against civilians seen so far yesterday, Ukrainian authorities have reported that Russian forces have dropped a bomb on a theatre in Mariupol, where around 1,200 people had been sheltering. The number of casualties is unknown. There are reports of people trapped under the rubble. Is Vladimir Putin a war criminal, Foreign Secretary? I think there's very, very strong evidence that war crimes have been committed in Ukraine and that he is instrumental to those war crimes taking place. And what we are doing is we're taking a case to the International Criminal Court with our friends and allies

around the world. And we will make sure he's held to account for these appalling crimes. So is that a yes? Well, what I'm saying is there's very, very strong evidence that he is. I'm asking because President Biden has said he is a war criminal yesterday. And are we now doing the same? Well, as I said, there's very, very strong evidence that war crimes have been committed and that vladimir putin is behind them why don't you want to it's ultimately i suppose why don't you want to cross that line is what i'm asking because you know the international criminal court to decide who who is or isn't a war criminal and for us to bring the evidence and the best thing we can do at the moment which is what we doing, is collecting that evidence on the ground to make sure Vladimir Putin is held to account for these crimes. Okay, but I suppose that line's been crossed by America. And I'm wondering why we're

not. Of course, Russian forces, it's been reported as well, have killed 10 people standing in line for bread. The US is increasingly worried that Russia will use chemical weapons in Ukraine. Is it a mistake for Biden to have said that? No, I don't think it is. And essentially what I'm saying to you, Emma, is that there is very, very strong evidence that war crimes have been committed and that Vladimir Putin is behind them. Does that keep you up at night that we will look back as part of NATO, that we failed to militarily intervene? How much is that on your mind at night that right now you as one of the leaders are making the wrong call?

What keeps me up at night is the fact that we didn't do enough early enough as the West to stop Vladimir Putin, whether it was in 2014 in terms of what he did in the Donbass region, whether it was his actions in Syria. I think that there was too much complacency. We didn't do enough to challenge Vladimir Putin. And we're now seeing these horrendous crimes taking place, as you say, that violate international law. And we probably, if we had taken a stronger stance earlier... Yes, of course, but I'm talking about now. I mean, I'm talking about this moment right now, where you're talking about war crimes being investigated. Is this an error not to go in and do more? We are doing all we can.

Well, we're not, are we? The UK has been at the forefront of supplying weapons to Ukraine, whether that's anti-tank weapons. We're now supplying anti-air weapons. We're doing all we can in terms of sanctions, bank freezes. We've taken a paltry number of refugees compared to Germany. The two things that will stop Vladimir Putin are making sure that the Ukrainians are able to defend themselves and debilitating the Russian economy to cut off the funding for Vladimir Putin's war machine. And in base of those areas, the UK has led. Well, the UK was very criticised for not taking in enough refugees.

And I'm also mindful of the fact that you're in charge of international aid and that you're the women's minister. Are you concerned we've forgotten about the women of Afghanistan to go to a different part of the world where women's rights have been rolled back and linking to Ukraine, some MPs are calling for the Home for Ukraine scheme to be extended to include Afghans. Would you support that with your many hats on? On humanitarian aid in Ukraine, the UK is the second biggest donor of humanitarian aid, and we've been supplying generators, we've been supplying medical equipment, we've been flying out seriously ill children to get treatment. So we really are on the forefront of helping humanitarian aid into Ukraine. But fundamentally, the biggest two things we can do

to stop this war and to stop Vladimir Putin, because of course, if he succeeds in Ukraine, we're likely to see even further devastation right across Eastern Europe. The two things we have to do is up the amount of defensive weapons that we are supplying into Ukraine with our allies and putting on even tougher sanctions. So I want to see tougher sanctions on banks. I want to see tougher sanctions on oil and gas. I really want to make sure there is no more funding going into this appalling war machine. And would you support Home for Ukraine's, our refugee scheme being extended to include Afghans? Well, the Homes for Ukraine scheme is opening fully tomorrow. And of course,

we're going to see how that goes. We've seen an incredible response to the British public, more than 100,000 people have signed up to be part of that. Are you going to, by the way? I wanted to ask. No, I'm not, to be frank, Emma, because first of all, because of my job and my family, it's not it's not possible for me to do that. But I do admire those who have put themselves forward. And, you know, we've seen an incredible response. So we don't know yet about extending it because it's just about to open. those who have put themselves forward. And, you know, we've seen an incredible response. So we don't know yet about extending it because it's just about to open. Just on that, I mentioned your jobs, if I may.

And I know you're a very busy woman. I know our time is short, but you are Foreign Secretary in charge of international aid. You are the chief EU negotiator tasked with sorting the Northern Ireland Protocol. And you are the Women and Equalities Minister. You're a very busy and important woman at the heart of many, many things. How on earth

can you dedicate meaningful time to being the Women's Minister with all of that on your plate? Well, I like to think, Emma, I've been given these jobs because I'm somebody who gets things done. And we yesterday successfully did get the detainees released from Iran. We have stepped up in our response to Ukraine. We're leading in humanitarian aid. We're leading in defensive aid. We're also leading in putting the toughest sanctions on banks and individuals tougher than either the EU or the US have got in place. It's not a criticism, Liz Truss, but why has it fallen to a woman to have four jobs when most of the men in cabinet have one?

Well, a lot of my colleagues are very busy. And can I say this is clearly an extremely busy time in foreign affairs. I mean, we have not seen the likes of this for decades. So that's not a criticism of what you're doing as foreign secretary. I suppose what I'm asking is Amber Rudd, who used to be the women's minister, as well as another role, because it's never been its own independent ministership, said last week to us on air here at Women's Hour, that there's no way you can be doing all of those things. It's not a criticism. So do you think being the women's minister should be an independent position?

I don't because fundamentally, equality should be important for every single minister in government. So whether you're the Home Secretary making sure people are treated equally by the police or whether you're the Justice Secretary making sure the justice system equally by the police, or whether you're the justice secretary, making sure the justice system is fair for women, whether you're the education secretary, making sure that girls have the same opportunities as boys to do STEM subjects.

You know, those are responsibilities that those people take on. And my job is to show leadership on those issues for women and equality across government. But it isn't to do it for them. It's ultimately the education secretary's responsibility to make sure that we have a equal education system. And my fear about having a separate women's minister is you take responsibility away from those other ministers and you put it in a silo somewhere else. And I just don't think that works. You don't buy into that. Well, perhaps I could ask you to commit with time when it isn't as frantic to come and do a phone in here with the listeners of Woman's Hour on what women would like, because they do have a lot of questions for you

that we aren't able to get through today. I'd be absolutely delighted to do that, Emma. Thank you very much. I'll take that as a yes when your diary is freer. One final question, because I'm aware of who has just come on the line to talk that, Emma. Thank you very much. I'll take that as a yes when your diary is freer. One final question, because I'm aware of who has just come on the line to talk to me next.

I'm speaking to the sister of Morad Tabaz, who's a conservationist, the third prisoner you spoke about to my colleagues on the Today programme yesterday, born in the UK, also with Iranian

and American citizenship, was not on the flight yesterday. Why has he been left behind? We pushed very, very hard as part of this deal to get Morad Tabaz out of prison and onto furlough. So he has now been taken out of the Iranian prison, which had horrible conditions, and he is now in his home with his family.

But I completely recognise that what we want is to see him free to leave altogether. And that's what I'm pushing for. But to be frank with you, Emma, that is the best deal we could get to be able to release fully Nazanin and Nusheh and get Murad from the appalling conditions of the Iranian prison into furlough. Now, the reason for that is that the Iranians see him as being an American citizen as well as a British citizen. So they are also talking to the American government as well as the British government. So they are also talking to the American government, as well as the British government. So as the British government, we were able to secure his release from prison into furlough, but we were not able to go any further, because the Iranian government, as he is a tri-national, see him also the responsibility of the US government, and they

are in separate discussions with the United States. So that is the issue. I feel terribly for Morad and his family. We did push very, very hard to get him out of that Iranian prison, but it simply wasn't possible to do the final step.

I will keep pushing that. I'm going to be working with the Americans to push the Iranian government to fully, fully release him. Liz Truss, thank you very much for your time this morning. I look forward to welcoming you back to the programme, where we'll have a bit more time, I hope, to speak about your role as Women's Minister and, of course, reflect on Foreign Secretary, international trade and what's going on with the Northern Ireland Protocol. Well, listening to that is the sister of Murad Tarbaz, the British-Iranian hostage and American who's still in Tehran.

He was born in this country, though I should stress, he has been released from prison, as you were just hearing Liz Truss say. He's a businessman and a wildlife conservationist who was accused of collecting classified information about Iran's strategic areas under the pretext of carrying out environmental and scientific projects, which he has denied. Taraneh Tarbaz is Morad's sister. Good morning. Good morning, Emma.

Thank you for coming on the programme. I just want to give you, first of all, the opportunity to react to what the Foreign Secretary just had to say about your brother's case? Well, what can I say? We were told, we were given to understand by the foreign office and indirectly by the foreign minister that they were working hard to release him along with Nazanin and Anousheh literally two days ago. And I believe the Foreign Minister said on a TV channel news program that her team were working towards freeing Nazanin, Murad and Anousheh imminently. What can I tell you, we were really, really, really excited. But things didn't turn out that way. So obviously we're devastated. His three children are heartbroken.

And unfortunately, furlough isn't the same as releasing him and sending him home. He is with his wife, but he is not home. He's not free to go anywhere. And we don't know what's going to be the next steps. Is that any comfort to have heard the foreign secretary just say live, I can hear you're getting some calls. I'm sure it's a very busy time for you. Thank you for sparing the time.

But is it any comfort hearing her just say she's going to keep working on it and work with the Americans because that's the block, even though he was born here, as I understand it, the Iranians viewing him as an American. Is that any comfort? Well, yes, of course. I mean, yeah, the irony obviously is the fact that he's the only British-born hostage in the group.

But it was very kind of the foreign minister to send out a tweet about Murad's predicament after the event. But we do urge her and the government not to forget us and not to forget him above all. And to turn those words into actions and accountable actions with timelines, and to continue in collaboration with their American counterparts in this matter, because from what we had understood, the American British governments were working closely in tandem to get all the hostages released, you see. So this, I mean, these, I think it was yesterday, there was one of the teams, the negotiating teams, the member of the American negotiating teams, that did give an interview, and gave his take on this sudden change of direction. But I'm afraid we haven't been told

anything, we basically found out about the releases in the media and we were not contacted for. When I was asking the Foreign Secretary about how Richard Radcliffe and by extension Nazanin have been treated, it is important for people to be able to hear how the Foreign Office treats people at this time. Well, to tell you the truth, we as a family are media shy so obviously um richard's uh family and himself especially and anoushe's family have been um very prominent in the media they've done a lot of work with the media been very active and and i think um it's it's obviously we're thrilled that they're they're out but I think a lot of it was helped along by the media. We did not take that road, and we basically trusted and were convinced that both governments were going to work in tandem to bring Morad home at the same time, because that was what was told us. How is he? How is he doing?

He's coping. My brother suffers from an ongoing debilitating illness and has bravely tried to cope with it in very dire conditions, as you can imagine, in the notorious prison, Evian prison, as well as having survived two bouts of COVID there. All I can say is that he's very resilient. And the thought of regaining his freedom and joining his family is what gives him strength and keeps him alive, despite all the hardships. So he's looking forward to splitting his time between the UK and the US, because we have family,

obviously, on both sides, a lot of family. And there's really not much I can say, except the fact that we're devastated, we're floored, and we're waiting to see what the next steps will be. Taranay Tarvas, thank you very much for talking to us today. Very mindful of what's going on in your family and also, as you say, not something you have done a lot of. And we'll keep in touch with you if that's OK. Thank you very much. Taraneh Tabaz is Mourad Tabaz's sister, the only British-born hostage of the three. And he's still in Iran, not able to come home, but out of prison. If you're confused by the use of the word furlough, I was too. But that's what that means at the moment, able to be in a home,

which is actually how Nazanin had been for the last couple of years before coming home at one o'clock this morning. Many messages from you coming in. Good morning to those who are getting in touch and to all of you listening. Thank you. I do usually give out our contact details right at the start of the programme. I haven't done that today, so forgive me for that.

But of course, if you do want to get in touch today, you can text me on 84844. That's the number you need. Text a charge at your standard message rate or at BBC Women's Hour on social media

or email me through the Women's Hour website. Julian says here, or begs the question from Nigs Trust, why did Richard Radcliffe have to run an effective campaign to quote her, if he was getting such fantastic

support from the government? Could the Foreign Secretary sound less convincing? This was in the past of the interview with About Why Now with Nazanin's Freedom and Anousheh. Friends with Oil just about sums it up. Can't reveal the details of the payment to Iran because it's something that could have been done in six minutes

not six years. Although she was at pains to stress the complexity of the diplomacy of this, maybe it is important, says Rosemary, to grill Liz Truss and give credit where it's due, to be frank. But I also hope Tulip Sadiq will be given space on the programme at some point, because she's amazing talking about the Labour MP, who's the constituency MP for Richard Radcliffe and Nazanin Zaghari-Radcliffe. Of course, we've had Tulip on before, and I'm sure we will welcome her back again soon. She was on with my colleagues this morning on Radio 4 on the Today programme. And Kate says, loving the question to Liz Truss

with regards to how many jobs she has, both Women's Minister, Foreign Secretary, and a couple of others in between. Why has a woman got four jobs in government when most of the men in Cabinet have only one? Would that be because only a woman can multitask, says Kate here? I also hope it's because she has an amazing team of women in brackets supporting her. Well, she did commit to coming back on to answering all of your questions

about what perhaps women want around the world and also closer to home as Women and Equalities Minister. But of course, a massive part of our conversation was also about her responsibilities as Foreign Secretary. And she says it's an incredibly busy time at the moment. And that is mainly because of what is happening in Ukraine with the Russian invasion and the war in Ukraine. And Ukraine has accused Russian forces of bombing a theatre where civilians were being sheltered in the besieged southern city of Mariupol. The Deputy Mayor, Sergei Orlov, has told the BBC

between 1,000 and 1,200 people had sought refuge in the building, but the number of casualties is still unknown. Images show the building in ruins, but it now seems there are reports of survivors in the rubble. Well, how do we know any of this? It's because of the role of journalists, for those who are taking the photos, for those who are filming, also for those who are the fixers, often locals in the area. Reporting from the conflict in Ukraine is as important as it is dangerous. And several journalists have now been killed there, including the 24-year-old Ukrainian fixer,

Oleksandra Kofishnova, on Tuesday of this week. My next guest has first hand of what it's like to experience these dangers. The senior foreign producer, Dominique van Heerdenden is part of Sky News' team that was shot at whilst reporting near Kiev during the first week of the war. They were ambushed whilst driving on a main road. And in the car with Dominique was Sky's chief correspondent Stuart Ramsey, camera operator Richie Mochler and the producer Martin Vowles as well as a local fixer Andriy Litvinenko. First something blew their tyre, the car then rolled to a stop by the side of a motorway embankment, then a shower of bullets hit the car and incredibly they were filming when it happened. I'm going to play you a clip of some of that video that Sky News has broadcast afterwards

but I do want to issue a warning that you may find it here hearing it excuse me distressing. It does contain some strong language which is understandable in the circumstances what the Stop! Where the f*** is everyone? Where is everyone? Here. Stop! We think it's a Ukrainian checkpoint and a mistake, so we identify ourselves. British journalist!

British journalist! Journalist! Journalist! Journalist! Journalist! Let me just say good morning then to Dominique Van Heerden. Very aware of you being part of what was going on there. What is it like to hear that audio again? I've heard it a lot.

I've watched it, I've seen it a few times now. We put that story together afterwards. We thought it was important to do so. But I have to say, hearing it, it doesn't get any easier to hear each time. And, you know, I think everything that's happened this week with the other journalists' deaths just amplifies that a little, you know. How long had you been there? If we could just take it a step back before we go to that point. Because I imagine, you know, you knew parts of where you were, but not others. Yeah, absolutely. Look, I've been covering Ukraine since 2014, since what happened on the Maidan and then the annexation of Crimea and the subsequent war that followed in eastern Ukraine. Ukraine is a country I'm very familiar with. The people we work with, I'm very familiar with. We'd spent, since December, we'd been in eastern Ukraine and we'd been,

you know, doing a lot about the front line there, which, you know, which some would say has been forgotten in the last few years. But as, you know, as talk of the invasion was growing, we felt it necessary to move towards the capital, towards the capital to Kiev to sort of base ourselves there while we tried to work out what the Russian strategy would be. So by the time we got to keep we've been there about eight weeks. And where were you heading to when you were ambushed? You know, the difficulty about being in the capital versus in the east is that, you know, you're in a bit of a bubble in the centre. And it's very difficult to, besides hearing distant booms and bangs,

it's very difficult to humanise or try and sort of visualise, at least televisually, the story of the war. And so we'd just come out of a 36-hour curfew where we weren't allowed to leave our hotel. It was the first day we were allowed out. We had our full accreditation. And we thought we would travel towards Butcher, which is sort of north of the capital.

And there had been a Russian convoy that was destroyed there the previous night. We had good contacts inside this little town. It's still within the kind of wider Kiev area. And we cautiously, you know, working in that area was getting more and more difficult because of the volume of checkpoints. It was checkpoints every 500 meters or so. We'd have to pass through, show your accreditation, talk to the Ukrainian soldiers or the civilian militia. So we thought we'd go to Butcher. We do a very quick story about the russian convoy that had been hit we'd make sure that we

made it back before dark because you don't want to be navigating those roads and checkpoints after after dark so that was really our goal it got to around 4 p.m and we'd spent about five six hours going through checkpoints and it was bear in mind this is to get something like 20 miles out of the capital. You know, we're not going a huge amount of distance. When we decided that the safe thing to do would be to abandon trying to get to Butcher and head back to the city centre because it was starting to get dark. You know, it just felt like we had tried to go to where we needed to be for the story, but it hadn't quite worked out. So the safe thing to do would be to turn around and go back to the capital. At this stage, we were only about 15 miles from the capital.

And how did the ambush begin? We'd spoken to Ukrainian soldiers about our route and police, and they advised us to go down the one road that we were headed down. We bizarrely were given ice creams by the soldiers at the checkpoint and we were all very relaxed. Like you do. You know, thank you for your work. You're amazing. Have an ice cream. Which, you know, I did remember thinking at the time, this is like a scene out of a very bad movie, but thanks very much, you know, and we sort of took the ice creams graciously. We didn't want to offend them.

And we started our way driving down this road, which was abandoned. But, you know, it's not unusual to be the only car on the road in the outskirts. I mean, there is a war, but it was Ukrainian territory, so we felt relatively safe. Before we knew it, we heard a bang. There was a bit of a, you can hear it in the video, a little bit of a chatter between the team. I thought it was a burst tire.

Stuart thought it was a bullet. Martin and Richie thought it was something else, maybe a small mine or something, but something went bang under our car and it sort of did this slow roll forward. And then there was just silence and then you know the next minute just I mean bullet after bullet after bullet coming from coming from the front of us and coming from the left side of us so coming in from two different directions at that stage I was just I think a little bit sort of shocked about what was going on.

But thank God we'd all managed to take cover and had the presence of mind to get low. I kind of made myself as small as possible in the footwell of the passenger side of the back seat and sort of just made myself a small ball while sort of fumbling and getting my helmet on. Thankfully, we had the rest of our body armor on. And I just, the way actually Stuart and I talk about it is it was like being in a washing machine with bullets. They were just sort of pinging everywhere. And I looked around and I thought, at some point, one of these bullets is going to hit me. It's just impossible that it wouldn't.

I think from the video you can see and hear a lot of the gunfire coming from the front but a lot coming from the left was coming straight through the back the back seat of of the car it was obviously terrifying you know i wouldn't i'd be lying if i said i wasn't scared i was absolutely terrified but i thought you know they this is just a mistake and they'll stop any minute. And then it did stop. And we thought, thank God for that. And started yelling, as you heard in that video, journalists, journalists, journalists.

And there was a pause. And I thought it was all over, that they understood. And there was maybe a misunderstanding. But then the next moment, another whole raft of bullets coming in. And at that moment, I knew, I thought to myself, if I stay in this car now, 100% I will die. If I try and get out of this car now, even though I'm terrified to step out into what was incoming fire maybe there's a

50 50 70 30 80 20 at least there's a chance and I said as much to the guys and I I kind of crawled out of the car and I remember shutting my eyes really tight because I was fully expecting to be shot at any moment and I crawled along on my belly and along the kind of motorway railing and I spotted a gap and quite little so I thought instead of trying to make my way all around I might be able to fit through the gap and I sort of squeezed myself under and rolled down a 40 foot concrete embankment which was the least of my worries at the time and steadily all the team made it out of the car and we made it to the bottom of the hill. When you got out, I mean, that is a real decision to have to take

because it wasn't stopping, the firing. And you say you closed your eyes, but I mean, can you describe how you were feeling when you got out? I mean, terrified. I don't really know what kind of courage came over me to make me actually get out. Because if you see from the footage, if you watch the whole thing, you can see look back at it and go, my goodness, why did I pick that moment? But I think it was the moment where I felt the courage and the gut just to do it. I thought, I have to do it right now. Come on, Dominique.

I thought, whatever happens, happens. I just have to get out of this car. And I remember, you know, we do, we have a lot of training and we, you know, we have been in war zones before you learn and you gain experience. And the one thing I did remember over and over was just to stay as low to the ground as possible. So I really just got flat on my belly and sort of, you know, let it crawl, the belly crawled along until I found

the gap to go under. But even now I look at it and I think, if you had told me I was going to do that, I would say absolutely not. If someone said, right, you're going to get out this car at this exact moment, I would say no way. But for whatever reason, I plucked up the courage and went for it. And remarkably, all of you survived. I mean, that's also remarkable with the barrage of bullets that were coming. Yeah, it's a question that I ask myself. I ask myself a lot, how, why, but mostly how. And I don't really have an answer, to be honest.

I think some things are fortune and some things are misfortune, and then if you add experience and team cohesion into it, apparently or possibly we just got really lucky. We were a good team combo. But to be honest with you, that would say that colleagues of ours who have not had the same outcome were not, so I don't necessarily agree with my own arguments. But, you know, you're turning this over, I suppose, in your mind as to as to how, you know, we're still having this conversation, I suppose, which is which is very relevant.

Absolutely. And I think for us, you know, the key thing was we did make it out and we did have a story to tell. The decision to actually air that footage and to tell the story was a very, very difficult one. It was difficult because obviously our families have to watch that and that's not the easiest thing to watch. But it was also difficult because in a war where there is so much going on

and where there is so much heartache, as a journalist, the last thing you want to be is be the story. You just don't. It's not, you know, telling other people's stories is what we do. But at the end of the day, we felt that it was reflective of what the terror that Ukrainian civilians are going through on a daily basis.

Our incident was hardly unusual in terms of a civilian attack. And they have no training and they are not there to do a job because they know it's a war. And I know you know all of that far more, but it's worth pointing out. You were in a car that wasn't marked press and it'd be good to hear why. But also, do you know who was firing at you? We assess whether to mark our car as press depending on what conflict you're in. For example, when we were working in Mosul in Iraq and Syria,

you would not mark your car as press because at that stage it was Islamic State and journalists were actual targets. In this war, we kind of went for a little bit of a compromise. The Ukrainian media office who advises journalists had suggested not to put TV or press in your car because the Ukrainians were hunting so-called Russian saboteurs who were apparently, you know, driving around in cars that had press or TV written on them.

So from the Ukrainians' point of view, it made us a target to mark our car as such. The guidance was perhaps something a bit low-key, which we did do, a low-key car, just a civilian saloon car. We had press on small kind of A4 pages sort of on the dashboard so that when you approach the checkpoint, you could see it at distance, not necessarily. But of course, all of our body armor and everything else all has press on it. We, as Stuart says in that report, at the time we thought because we were in Ukrainian

territory, we thought that perhaps it was some kind of rogue civilian militia checkpoint that just got a bit jumpy and sort of attacked the car because they didn't know what it was. But when we were rescued by the police, which we were later that night, about four hours later, we hid in an industrial warehouse for about three or four hours until the police came and got us. The police came screeching in themselves under sort of low-level fire. And we were extracted and taken out, and we spent the night

at the police chief's house until we could safely get back to the capital, the centre of it. And they had explained to us that Russia had been, they'd been these sort of forward sort of Russian recon squads that are in place and hidden, that are trying to look for routes for the rest of that, remember that large convoy, for that convoy to try and make, you know, a program into the city center. So they said to us, look, it was a Russian sort of so-called death squad. Look, it's in the Ukrainians' interest to say that.

Obviously, there's no doubt about that. However, all the evidence points towards that, not least the fact that the police went back the next morning to try and get our passports, phones, a few essential things that were in the car, and came under really heavy fire themselves and had to withdraw. So we can't identify exactly who, but, yeah, we are told. It was the Russians. Yes, yes. And now... The people are different, you know. Of course. Yeah, I mean...

No, no, and I suppose it's just important to hear how you've been told it and what you're going off. Are you going to go back um emma yes yes absolutely that that is a short answer you know i what what happened i um it was terrorizing and it terrorized me i worked in conflict zones so i understand the emotions around it all but i found it absolutely terrifying but But I think what I'm more afraid of is this assault on truth and this whole idea that, you know, fake news and misinformation and falsehoods are spread as fact and that there is nothing. If we don't do our jobs, what is there to counterbalance it?

And all of our colleagues colleagues doing an extraordinary job on the ground in Ukraine at the moment and I hope that when the time's right once Stuart has healed and once we've all had a bit of time to process it definitely that we'll go back absolutely

Well thank you for what you are doing to try and bring the story and I'm obviously so incredibly sorry that happened to you and your colleagues but I'm also very happy we can have this conversation this morning.

Likewise, Emma. Thank you so much for having me on. Good luck with it. Dominique Van Heerden, part of Sky News' team that was ambushed and shot at whilst reporting near Kiev during the first week of the war. And one of those people trying to bring you as much information as possible. Well, talking about information, talking about fake information, talking about what you can trust, let me ask you with regards to something you may have seen online with regards to tanning. Whether your tan is real or fake, it can boost your mood, of course, after a long grey winter, and perhaps that's why some people are getting involved with what we're about to tell you about now. A BBC investigation has been looking into a tanning product called Melanotan-2.

It's an artificial hormone taken either as a nasal spray or it can be injected and it can make your skin tan faster. It is an unlicensed product. Dermatologists say it's dangerous. The BBC has found that social media influencers, mainly women, are promoting it online to thousands of followers. Some of those who have used it have experienced headaches, throat infections, even early stage skin cancer. Anna Collinson is the BBC's health reporter and has been looking into this. Tell us more about how this works. Yeah, morning Emma. So melanotan-2 is an artificial hormone and it can increase the production of melanin, the pigment that darkens skin. But it's never undergone rigorous safety testing. So we have no real idea what's in it. And

originally it was being sold about 10 years ago in places like the odd gym or the odd beauty salon. And it was only being sold in injection form, which obviously comes with its own issues of potential infections at injection sites. Roll on 10 years, social media sites have helped propel this unlicensed drug into the mainstream effectively, not only providing a platform to sell it, but also we found dozens of influencers promoting it. And also there's been another addition, not alongside the injection, you can now take it via a nasal spray. So inhale it. And that's what we're predominantly seeing on social media is lots of a lot of young women

on social media showing their followers how to inhale this untested drug. They're promoting it and then the selling of it? So the way it's sort of working is we're seeing the selling of it happen either on websites or certain companies are setting up accounts on, for example, Instagram. And then there may be forming relationships with influencers who are then promoting it. There may be some influencers who are involved with the selling, but the main focus is, as I say, it's illegal to sell. And that's what certain companies are doing. And then the influencers are helping to promote it. Well let's hear from 19 year old Elena from Stockton-on-Tees who started using this as a nasal spray. I first found out about nasal tanners on Instagram that's where I started like obviously seeing

people's results and getting interested thinking oh I want to look like that. I'm really really pale and I get a load of people going oh you look washed out. With a tan it just makes you a bit more confident, so I wanted to gain that bit more confidence. It was very easy for me to get them, I just messaged the girl and just went to pick them up and just handed the money over and that was it. It was literally a plain nasal spray bottle with a sticker on the front. I'd used them twice the first week I got them and that was where I just started burning up and then I used them a week after that and one night I was laid in bed and my throat started to all close up. I literally couldn't breathe. It felt like my head was going to explode, like my head was just throbbing constantly and I was nearly crying my eyes out. The doctors said you have got an infection and it is because of the tanners

because you'd inhaled them and it had obviously gone in your throat and caused a massive infection in your throat and in your sinuses. And they said obviously you do know that obviously nasal tanners are illegal. I said yeah I did know and they were just saying well we have had quite a few people in with them. As soon as I got home I thought nah and nah. And even my dad said he went and put them in the bin. I said, I am. I shot them in the bin in front of my dad and I thought, I'm never, ever touching them again. It's not nice for anyone to go through,

but it's a risk that people take. I was still struggling to breathe like a month later. It's very shocking to hear that. Yeah, it really is. And she's one of 20 people that we've spoken to who've experienced a wide range of complications. Other symptoms have been abscesses, infections, nausea, vomiting, burning of the nose when you're inhaling it. And we've also spoken to one woman who, after using the injections, developed a mole which then turned out to be cancerous and she then had to go under have this mole removed which led to quite as quite as painful and serious operation led to

a giant painful scar on her leg about the size of a letterbox and her dermatologist told her that while they couldn't be 100% sure it was very likely that melanotan too was the cause of that. Is this mainly an issue for women or are men involved? It's a good question. I mean, what we found during our investigation is yes, this is mainly young white women who are trying this drug and also promoting it. But we've also come across young men or men who are doing it. And we've also come across some people who are mixed race. So it is, as I say, mainly young women who are affected. And the stopping of this, I mean, it's not illegal to use or promote, as you say, but it is illegal to sell.

Is anything now, do you think, going to change? Well, there's been a big push from doctors for more to be done. The medicines regulator, the MHRA, it's their job to remove unlicensed medicines from the UK, from the UK's market, sorry. They say that they've been doing that for 10 years in regards to melanotan too, and will continue to do so. Social media sites like TikTok and Instagram, they say that the sale of those products is illegal and is banned, sorry, is banned and the promotion will, any promotion will be taken down. So there are things that are being done to try and curb this, but ultimately the industry is thriving. Even if a social media account is removed, it's very easy

to then create another one and it doesn't necessarily have to have Melanitan in the title. So then finding those companies can be a bit like a needle in a haystack. But with this report, perhaps, I don't know, there will be greater knowledge of it. Definitely, definitely greater awareness. And that's why all the people we've spoken to have experienced complications, wanted to speak to us, and particularly the dermatologists. We spoke to the British Association of Dermatologists about this, who are incredibly concerned.

They're on the lookout for warning signs when they see patients come through the door, a sort of unusual orangey-tan colour, and the way they describe it, sort of strangely shaped moles, disordered moles. So they're really anxious to get people understanding that these products are untested and they are potentially very dangerous. Anna Collinson, BBC's health reporter, thank you. And thank you, as always, for your company and messages. We're back tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour.

Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. All right, here we go, Oti. 5, 6, so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. All right, here we go, Oti. Five, six, seven, eight. Dance. It has the power to connect and to entertain. And in a new series for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds, I explore the iconic dancers who have been doing just that.

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