Woman's Hour - Forever Friends?

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

What happens when a friendship breaks down? How can you repair it? Should you even try?In this special Sunday podcast, Nuala McGovern brings together all the interviews from Woman's Hour's 'Forever Friends?' series.Annie and Lizzie first met at school, and Lizzie said she believed they were ‘kindred spirits’. But soon after Annie’s first child was born, Lizzie decided to cut off contact. They reflect on this period of silence and how their relationship has changed since they have rekindled the friendship.Daniella and Nataliya – Nat and Dan - also met at school. An argument caused by gossip when they were both 17 led to the break-up of their friendship, but they reunited years later. They are now both in their thirties, living in London. They share their perspectives on how romantic relationships can impact close friendships. Nina is a Woman's Hour listener who contacted the programme after hearing the series. She wanted to share her experience of repairing a long-term friendship. Listener Christina was also inspired to reach out after hearing stories of friendship on Woman's Hour. Having ended contact with three close friends in four years, Christina wanted to ask if she was the reason her friendships kept falling apart. Presented by Nuala McGovern Compilation by Hatty Nash Features produced by Erin Riley

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello and welcome to a special edition of the Woman's Hour podcast. Over the past year, we've had a series of interviews on the programme on the topic, Forever Friends? Question mark. Yes, the question mark is key. Because we wanted to explore what happens when friendships go through those rocky patches. How does it feel when things go wrong? How can we repair friendships and should we even try? We've put all the interviews together for a special Sunday episode off the podcast, so now you don't even get a break from us on a Sunday. So coming up, matching friendship tattoos, a good or bad idea? Two friends describe how

they've marked their friendship permanently. And when do you have to ask yourself, am I the problem? One guest tells us about the soul searching she's been doing after losing three close friendships in four years. But first, Fleabag writer Phoebe Waller-Bridge said a wonderful line on this very programme a couple of years ago. Friendships are the greatest romances of our lives. It's a sentiment that resonated with a lot of you. For our guests, Annie and Lizzie, that was certainly the case. They first met at school and Lizzie said she believed they were kindred spirits. They spoke separately to our reporter Jo Morris about their long friendship. You'll hear from Lizzie first. I met my life partner in my early 50s and up to that point friendship was, I mean

obviously friendship still is important, but I know that my life emotionally pivoted around my my friends I think my friends would say that I'm a good friend and I maintain friendships and I worked at them so therefore when my friendship with Annie fell apart that was probably quite a catastrophe actually in the sense of now retrospectively realising that I had given up something that was actually really important to me. I don't have many photos, but I have a collection of photos that my mum put together for my 40th birthday. And very revealingly, so she was kind of like doing a potted history of my life and that is me and anne i think that might have been my 19th or 18th birthday oh and why very revealing the fact that mum put it in the book we were putting silly hats on

sub banana rama black hat from miss selfridge uh stripy t-shirt. Classic, classic 80s combat. And this is Annie here, isn't it? Yeah, she's got her nice, I mean, punkish short hair, blonde, a big jacket. It was a look. And how do you feel now looking at you both there? I love this photo. Young girls on the brink of what's ahead. We were either about to go to college or our first year at college. And at this point, do you think you thought you'd always be friends? You think friends forever, don't you, when you're that age? And you hope so, because if you find people that you can connect with, you do want them to be forever. Friendship was so hard to find.

Why would you sort of abandon it? How long have you been friends with Annie for? I met Anne in 1978. We met at sixth form of a boys boarding school, 25 girls each year. So there were 50 girls in a school of 600. So it was a very strange experience. Beyond that, it was also a place I wasn't particularly happy being at. At the time, my mum and dad were not having a very easy time together. The thinking was that if I went to boarding school, it would take me away from this difficult situation. If I could have seen you two hanging out at school together, what would I have seen?

Probably us in the art department laughing, definitely laughing, snorting with laughter. Yeah, I mean, I think we did a lot of snorting, but that's a great feeling. It was very establishment school. So kind of being a bit arty, being a bit different, being a bit left wing, you sort of slightly stuck out. We were kind of, I suppose, kindred spirits. I probably was wearing big CND badges and that kind of thing

in a school where the military was kind of important. Were you the cool girls? I think Anne was cool. I'm not quite sure how cool I was. I was nerdy cool. I was definitely nerdy cool of all the people in that year. Anne was the sort of person I felt I had most in common with. I found school very difficult because of various things going on at home. It was really important to find friends who could be supportive to you. There were very few that were sort of really my tribe. Anne is incredibly compassionate and warm. Even in your late teens, people play hot and cold with you. And I think Anne was consistent.

Would she come to your house? Yeah, she came to my house. My mum was incredibly fond of Anne and was someone who was always very kind of chatty with my mum. I suppose I was embarrassed that my parents were opera singers. Again, it was back to all my awkwardness as a teenager. Pathetic, really. This is something she gave me, so... What is it?

It's a card when we got married. That Lizzie gave you? Yes. What does it say? It says, Dearest Annie and Daniel, wishing you all things bright and beautiful and much happiness besides. Much, much love, Lizzie. And are you Anne or Annie?

Annie. And what does Lizzie call you? Probably Anne. Everyone's known me Annie since I've been a grown-up. I've never known her as Elizabeth, although her mother did call her Elizabeth, but she sang her name. Her mother was an opera singer and you'd hear this beautiful voice coming up the stairs. Go, go, give it a go. Elizabeth! She was larger than life and an opera singer and a very talented opera singer. Their house was quite sort of lively and busy and they had a parrot and it was all very different to my quiet family home with just a father and siblings. The school had a lot of girls coming in who were sort of a bit mean girlsy, I think,

and she was not like that, slightly awkward. She was clever, she was quite intense. When you met Lizzie, what was your first impression of her? Did you think she was cool? I don't think I thought she was cool, but she was cool. She was interested in sort of cultural things that were beyond me, but I wanted to know about, so she was a bit ahead of me, really. My friendship with Lizzie became better and closer after school.

We were at different universities, but we used to write to each other a lot. And I remember going to stay with her and she came down to stay with me. And she had sort of a nice group of friends who were always very interesting and cool and clever. What did you imagine the future held for your friendship at that point? I expected that she'd always be a friend. I certainly didn't expect there to be a rift. I think probably even then there were times, this is something that I've thought about later on,

there were times when I could have been kinder to her and more inclusive and I probably wasn't. What was the point Lizzie when things began to change in your friendship? Anne met her husband to be at university and they were very happy and very grounded as a couple and they moved in with each other I think quite soon after leaving university and they became to me very grown up and then they got married and and had her first child and I think for me that was like so far from where I was in my life I probably deep down found it kind of difficult to be around her because she had a confidence of who she was, not just being a mum and a wife, but she also was studying teacher training and knew what she wanted to do vocationally, whereas I was still kind of trying to work out what I wanted to be. And I think that kind of confidence of knowing who she was and being happy in her skin, I kind of pushed that away because it was

everything I wasn't. I remember thinking, I don't want to be entertaining single friend. That was the sitcom staple, wasn't it? Not that Anne was asking that of me. Did you tell her how you were feeling? Of course not, I was I was such a mess I kind of just pushed her away she never neglected me it was me who neglected her I was probably jealous. And what happened? Basically I ghosted Anne it's not the word that would be used in the early 90s but I I ghosted her I kind of stopped returning her phone calls and just tried to cease contact in a most immature way which I'm not proud of I am ashamed she rumbled there was something up because she wrote me a lovely letter she wrote to me to try and understand why I wasn't returning her calls and and also try

and understand the rift in our friendship and I can remember being in the corner of my bedroom reading the letter and I remember feeling cornered like I didn't have an answer I didn't even reply to that letter sadly I can't find it but I know that I didn't throw it away I put it into a book so I was ticking along with my career and my home life Lizzie was part of that but not not every week, I don't think. And I could have probably been more inclusive and kinder and made more effort. So when you looked at Lizzie, what did you think she was doing with her life? She was a dynamic, so independent woman who didn't have two little babies hanging off her arms and having to think about food all the time. She was glamorous and making decisions about important things.

Could you tell her how you were feeling? We weren't talking in the way that we were talking ten years before. She was very sweet about my first child, I remember that. She came to visit and she brought me some flowers, which was lovely. And I was just completely absorbed with this three-day-old. I didn't see her again for a very long time. I'm a bit stubborn as well, so I probably kept trying. Too long, probably.

And a mutual friend of ours said, you know what, she's entitled to sort of make the decision. If she doesn't want to see you that's fine you have to let her so I stopped probably my pride was quite hurt why aren't I good enough for you she did let me know she did send me a card to say she didn't want to see me and she was moving on she sent you a card can't remember if it was a letter or a card so Lizzie said that you wrote her a letter. Right. Yes, I'm sure she's right.

She remembers all these things, whereas I forget them. But she didn't mention writing a postcard to you. Well, somehow I knew. Oh, God. Maybe it's a fantasy. I don't think it is. I can sort of hear it, so I think it was real. Yeah.

Her voice saying, you know, and I can't remember what the words are, but basically, you're not part of my life and did you think that Annie was thinking about you in the years you were out of touch I thought about her and how she was but I didn't think she would necessarily be thinking about me why because again I suppose it's about like well I don't deserve her thinking about me because I behave badly did you think that Lizzie would be thinking about you no did you ever think about reaching out to her in that period no I thought about her and every now and then I'd sort of google or whatever when you could start googling and it was all very exciting but so I suppose I didn't think about what she'd be thinking it's that fear of going back to that fear of being 16 and people not wanting to be your friend or 10 and you know not being in the gang not being in the gang. Not being in the gang? Yeah.

The longer it went, the less easy it became to sort of connect. You said your mum liked Annie. Did you tell her what had happened? I probably just said something like, you know, well, we don't talk anymore or something. When my mum put together an album of photographs for my 40th birthday, a picture of me and Anne was part of that. Maybe it was my mum saying,

what happened to your lovely friend Anne? Were you worried about bumping into Annie again? I was worried about bumping into Anne. I felt really embarrassed for my bad behaviour. Did you ever bump into her? There was one time when I did see her walking down the street. It must have been about 18, 19 years after. She was striding and she looked beautiful and she looked so sophisticated and I just put my head down and turned away.

Why didn't you want to speak to her? I didn't want to have an awkward situation. She said she didn't want to be friends with me anymore and she had a busy life. So did you actually pass her in the street? I think yeah we must have walked past each other. So how many years passed Lizzie before you saw each other again? 20 years plus. So what happened? How did you reconnect? A very dear friend and colleague was very seriously ill. And it made me really reflect on life and death and what's important in life and being a good person. But also the importance of friendship. I was also now with my husband, and I'd made friends with myself.

Facebook was there, and I thought, I wonder if she's on Facebook, and she was. So I sent a friend request. So out of the blue, she contacted you? And I don't really know why. And did you think about not replying? Oh, no. It was different to walking past her in the street. This is different. It came from her. So why would I not respond? I was really, really, really happy.

We had a correspondence and she invited me for Sunday lunch a couple of weeks later. You must have been nervous on the doorstep. I can remember going up the path thinking in a few seconds I'm going to see someone I haven't seen for 20 years. I wasn't nervous about it, excited, but not nervous. And I just remember the door opening and we both burst into tears and it was just very, very joyous. It was very joyous.

We both said, you look just the same. Obviously we don't, but we feel like we look and are the same. It felt very easy immediately. Did I cry? Did she say? She said you both burst into tears. I'm terrible, aren't I? She still had her punkish, short, Jean Seberg hair. She knows who she is. To me that's so cool. Since you've reconnected has your relationship changed? I think it has. I think it's better. We want to be good friends and to look after each other. When my mum was very ill she came to to visit my mum. Lots of friends were really kind of kind and generous and checking in with me but ann was the friend who actually kind of go i'm coming down to take you out for lunch

i'm doing it now she along with a couple of my other really good women friends came to my mum's funeral and i kind of feel like she's there annie to people listening who might be going through this right now, a friendship interrupted or a friendship breakup, what would your advice be? Maybe be more honest with yourself about how you're being so that you can think about things from someone else's point of view. It's very easy to get caught up in your own world. If a person is living and you cared about them once,

I'd say try and repair it. Friendship is good. It's a good, lovely thing. Value it. Value it. Annie and Lizzie sharing the story of their friendship. Next, we're talking about the bumps in the road of friendship. But those bumps become a little more worrying, I imagine imagine if you've already committed to matching friendship tattoos. Our next pair of friends, Daniela and Natalia, Nat and Dan are both in their 30s

and living in London. Jo talked to them individually about their friendship, tattoos and all. And accounts differ as to what the tattoos actually mean as you'll hear at the beginning. Daniela speaks first. Oh God, it's such a bad tattoo.

How old were you when you got that tattoo? Sadly, like in our mid-twenties, old enough to know better. We have a seven tattoo because we met in year seven. We decided to get matching tattoos, but then she went and got hers done by herself. It's a little bit wonkily drawn, I have say yours is quite elegant isn't it yeah hers is less elegant and it always everyone thinks it's an l so we decided we wanted to get a tattoo and i was leaving for hong kong maybe there was a miscommunication but I was like well I just get it she's so angry about this she is so angry I really wanted to cement our friendship did she explain to you what it was you tell me tell me your version of I love it because it's the quote from on the road by Jack

Kerouac it's the page number but now looking on it, it's definitely like the page number of that edition of On the Road by Jack Kerouac. It makes us sound like tossers, but I think it's helpful for understanding how we see our friendship. The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time.

The ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow Roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars. And in the middle, you see the blue centre light pop and everybody goes, ah. Puts how we feel about our friendship into words. I love a tattoo. I love a tattoo to cement a time in her life.

It's nice to know she's here with me. And is the seven for anything else? Oh, was it? to cement a time in her life. It's nice to know she's with me. And is the seven for anything else? Oh, was it? I don't think so. Maybe it was. Was it? She said it was something to do with year seven as well.

Dan, if you were on a friendship dating site, you and Natalia, do you think you'd put you two together? No. Absolutely not. And that's why I think it's so beautiful with two completely different people how are you different in every single way even when we first met I don't think anyone would have thought oh those two are born to be friends but there's obviously a reason

why we're we were inseparable from the off don't know whether it was fascination at the beginning like oh what is this other creature who thinks and behaves and operates completely differently to me? I think I'm a far more compassionate and kind and open person because of her. I don't really know what I've taught her. Hopefully it's equally rewarding for her. Hopefully. Can we let me know tomorrow?

I'll ask her and come back to you on that one. What's your earliest memory? Of Daniella? We'd met already in year seven. The friendship began, I believe, in year eight. We were at lunch and there was a big group of us and Daniella got her Lunchables lunch out and somebody was like, oh, what's that?

And that was a thing I was very used to hearing at school, generally anyway, because I was Russian and I always had salami in my lunch or something and everyone smells or whatever and I remember sitting with her and being like don't worry they're like this to me all the time and then we walked around the school playground calling everyone sheep because we thought we were better than everyone else probably but actually I think that's not that we thought we were better than everyone else that's like why don't we fit in here why are we such dorks and everyone's really seems to be doing just fine I don't think anyone was doing just fine were they but that was we'd found each other

one minute Natalia was in my life and that's it I don't really remember like a particular day I know there's before Natalia and there was after Natalia. How old do you think you were? God, you're going to kill me if I get this wrong. She's going to kill you. She talks about... Have you forgotten? Yeah. Oh, God. I know there's relationships where you've got, like, the bloke

who just always forgets, like, anniversaries and all the important things that the other person really cares about. That's how I feel right now. Do you remember? It's like our childhood for both of us. So what had your life been like up to that point? More interesting than most children's, I think. So I came here as an asylum seeker when I was five. From?

From Russia. My grandad died under mysterious circumstances and some threats were made to my family that basically meant that we had to leave. We lived with my grandmother. My mum had already divorced my dad. My life was great. My mum did an extraordinary job of never letting me see that we were actually going through hell as a family. So what did you like about dan what was the attraction we used to laugh a lot it was easy with her and i could tell her things and she actually cared about what you were saying i know that her life wasn't simple and that the women her family hadn't had a great time

so she had like stepdads and you know various situations where they'd, like, leave her on her own and stuff like that. How did being friends with Dan make you feel? Safe. Safety is really important for me because of everything. We'd both had hard times and we both weren't acknowledging them. I guess in our school it wasn't cool to be smart or read, but she was from a Russian background. She was like was like oh can you tell me more about reading and like those things like where are you from what what planet have you come from? I'm from a council estate in

Kilburn an area in London from a certain type of working class background you're not exactly encouraged to be smart or bookish. I remember meeting her and I was like, oh my God, she's so smart. She was gifted and talented, clever. She was ungifted and talented. I was not. Did she help you with your homework? Oh yeah, she used to do it for me.

You used to do the homework for you both? Yeah, all of it. I can't take credit for all of her homework, her entire academic career, but yeah. Are you the smart one in the relationship? No, absolutely not When Natalia showed an interest, how did it make you feel? Curious, I think

She said you used to walk home and I'm calling people sheep Yeah, she loves that memory, arrogant little kids Did you like going to her house when you were younger? Loved it, I must have spent like three days a week there I arrogantly convinced myself I could speak Russian because I understood what they were saying. But actually, it's just I kind of could get the gist

because I knew their body language. I didn't speak a word of Russian. What did your mum think of Natalia? Loves her. Still loves her. Considers her another daughter. It wasn't exactly easy at home, but it wasn't easy for her at home either, so maybe that's also part of it.

I think we both just understood each other did your family like Dan yeah they loved her the Nyoka the Nyoka granny used to make us breakfast on the weekend but did you think you'd be best friends forever yeah doesn't everyone what did you think dan when you were approached to talk about your friendship with natalia female friendships are powerful i think and they're incredible but it's not all rosy and sweet i think there's they're flawed and they're they can break and they can be stressful and they can be all the horrible and painful things that make any relationship but i think I was really excited to explore the the more complicated sides of female friendship rather than this twee

version of it that I sometimes I think we've peddled as women then something changed yes so what changed I think this is a bigger part of Natalia's story than mine to be honest she got into a really good school I was very happy for her probably but also like oh this is rubbish isn't it? Did it seem like an option to you at the time? No, no but nothing like that did. That's immigrant life. Those were the most difficult times for me at home in all the school years and And she wasn't there. She was there, but she was growing at her own pace. And I don't think I was dealing with anything very well.

So when you looked at Daniela's new friends, what did you see? I thought that was really cool. You were jealous? Yeah, of course I was. Of course I was. I was really jealous. I was jealous that she had friends. I was jealous that she had places to be do you know what I mean she had like plans every Friday and I remember being like oh okay I don't have plans every Friday I didn't change but it's just context right I went from being a bit of a boffin and well-behaved

and never getting a detention to getting a detention within a couple of days automatically went from being seen as like the posh one to being called rude girl within my first few days seen as a troublemaker when really I was really good and like it's interesting that Natalia wasn't part of that but I guess I had to do that alone there was no way I could be in that world it was hers I think class is a really big thing for both of us I don't think I realized

anything about class until way after university after I'd experienced it looked back on it and went that's why I didn't get what they were talking about so how did you eventually end up not talking what happened there was some drama there's some 17 year old drama i'd done something not great i confided in a friend and in that i probably said one detail too many i was trying to confide about how i was feeling but i added details of things that were said because i just talk and talk and talk and it ended up that everyone was angry at daniella for something because of that and then daniella was in turn angry at me for telling everyone a private conversation that we were

having between me and her and she called you yeah what did she say can you remember where you were yeah i was outside of school it was really sunny and she called me and asked me if i'd told someone something and i remember not even asking the details, I just said yes. Like I admitted to get what was straight away. And then she said, don't call me again. She didn't devastate me, I was just annoyed. I hope she wouldn't mind me saying that she liked to gossip, she liked to talk, that was her way of connecting with people.

I remember thinking, I totally know what's happened here, I know you. I feel like it was more me setting boundaries than it was anything else. I needed space. And I went home and I went upstairs and I closed the curtains and I just lay there and cried. Honestly, that was the worst breakup I've ever had. Genuinely, nothing hurts more than that. Someone's angry at her because of a thing that I've told someone

and that's not fair and I remember that being like a real thing of shame for me I'd caused upset for someone who doesn't deserve it and that's not fair really the worst breakup you've ever had so worse than romantic relationships

yeah why? because boys don't matter. They come and go, and I say that with all the love in my heart for John, who I hope I'll marry one day, but you can survive without a boy. You can't survive without the person that knows everything about you. How long did you stop talking to each other for? About three years, I think.

Did you miss her? I was ashamed, so it was hard to think about it did you do you think in that time you didn't see each other that she was thinking about you at all I hope so I think so she forgets when people do bad things to her really quickly do you no no I don't. I remember. So aren't I lucky? I got a friend that does forget. Did you miss her? I didn't dwell on it.

I didn't, but yeah, of course I did. Did you think that she'd be thinking about you? No. Why not? I don't know. It just felt like we were living separate lives and I didn't think she'd had anything to miss. We didn't talk for a few years until until my mum bumped into her while picking up my little sister from school

and she said that she'd bumped into Natalia and she said like she was like seemed really really really upset I think you said, like, message her. And that surprised me. It didn't occur to me that she'd be upset. Why not? I guess in my head, in my teenage head, she'd betrayed me. So obviously she wasn't interested in our friendship and didn't care about me.

So I thought cutting ties wouldn't have affected her. So I think I was taken aback to hear that she was upset. I don't even know how we made up I guess but we did we met in the downstairs like food court in M&S in Oxford Street it was like no time had passed it was it's actually incredible maybe it's those years of formation together but it was just like yeah so how's life oh my god this thing's happening and it was just that that so how's life oh my god this thing's happening and it was just that that was it and we just became best friends again it was the easiest thing in the world were you nervous before you met her yeah I was nervous I was like going on a date

palms sweaty and shaking so do you think looking back do you think you needed to have that time apart 100% we needed to have that time apart We also needed to just be ourselves in our own lives and just grow up. And I needed to find myself in a thing I could do well. I needed to figure out whether I could do homework without someone fixing it for me. Do you know what I mean? And I needed to know whether I was smart enough to study and actually get a good... I needed all of those things. I think she was really, apologetic and I think she

is giving herself far too much of a hard time about the whole thing and that's why it comes up whereas really it was just kids doing stupid things she gossiped everyone gossips I got hurt that's fine so you became friends again in your early 20s and then has it been plain sailing from there? Absolutely not. It hasn't. No, of course not, no. Nat and Dan there and we'll be hearing from them again later in this episode. This is a special Woman's Hour podcast

where we're bringing you all the interviews in our series Forever Friends. Still to come, when do you decide you're the problem? We speak to a guest who has lost three close friendships in four years. And how do you tell a friend you don't like her partner? We ask what happens when romantic relationships and friendships collide. But for now, we're always delighted when a story resonates with our listeners and when you get in touch. And lots of you heard the Forever Friends interviews

and let us know your stories, which is just brilliant. One woman's hour listener, we're calling Nina, contacted us after hearing Emma Barnett introduce the series on our programme. Reporter Jo Morris met Nina at her home to hear her experience of repairing a friendship. I was just struck by the timeliness of it all because I had literally just received this letter and I thought, my goodness, this is exactly

the issue you were talking about. To hear Emma Barnett just say, you know, reconnecting with a friend that you haven't been in touch with for a long time, should you even bother? It was the should you even bother? I had a letter, you know, an actual physical letter come through the post. I have it here. So take me back to the moment you found it. Where were you? I saw from the room that I work in that the post had come. And I saw this actually handwritten letter to me. And I opened up and my husband was home. And I said, you'll never guess

who I got a letter from. To be honest, I was absolutely numb, just numb. It was from this old friend who I had been very, very close to when our daughters were little. And we were friends for, I think, possibly about 12, 13 years. And then our daughters started going in different directions. They grew up to be quite different people. But we had, I think, actually verbally affirmed we were going to stay friends and that wasn't going to affect us. And, you know, we would still be close. Anyway, then her daughter, my friend's daughter, got really quite unwell. And it was quite all consuming, I think, which I understand. But usually, at least my instinct is when you have a problem or something that's so upsetting in life, you turn to your friends.

And instead what happened is that I was just cut off, and I was informed by email. And this was in the days before email was really used personally in the same way. This was about maybe a little bit more than 15 years ago. I didn't contact my friends by email. That would have been quite an odd thing to do. And I was informed that that was the only way she would not have telephone discussions with me. She would only communicate through email. And it really was out of nowhere. I had been aware of what was going on with her daughter and I cared about her daughter. You know, I'd known her since she was a baby. Just suddenly. How much have you wrestled with trying to find the answer of why you were cut off?

Who knew how to interpret it? I was either not a good enough friend to come to, or I don't know why. It was just absolute severance. And I think I emailed back and said, look, you know, I'm not happy with this. You know, why so formal? Why do we have to do it this way? And I don't think I got a response, and that was the end of it. And you haven't seen her since?

No, we've had no contact. And what impact has this had on you? Well, at the time, it was, for several years, it was excruciating. I mean, one of the reasons, I suppose, is because I guess you can tell, but I'm not from this country. And neither of us were, you know, both of us were American. And I felt I certainly felt a very deep connection to her. And, you know, there were things in our background that were quite similar. It was just like having one of the few familiar things in my life just cut off. Why do you think it's important to talk about the thornier side of female friendship?

It seems to happen a lot. And you do hear people, you know, say, oh, you know, we've been fast friends since childhood and we're always doing things together and we got married at the same time and we had children together and I really really envy them I really envy them but it hasn't been my experience I think with anybody I've known there's always been something but you do come through it but this one I wasn't even given the chance to come through have you got any photos of you two together as well, when the kids were little? Yes, actually. Do you want to come with me?

I'd love to. You have to come in the hall. So we're on your stairway, halfway up your stairway. That's me. That's her. Oh. You're both holding your babies. Yep. So this is... That's her daughter.

So when was this taken? Must have been 27 years ago. Where were you? In our back garden. You're both holding your babies? Yep. Yep. When they were very little and they used to take naps at the same time, get about two hours grace and, you know, we'd have a long talk and it was, it was very, very nice nice so she's still on your wall she's still on the wall but then again my parents are dead and they're still on the wall those cats are dead and they're still on the wall too it never occurred to me to take her off the wall I mean you know who cares really I really effectively killed this inside me. I have loads of lovely friends now.

And I have not experienced this since. And, you know, it's literally like, oh, I suppose, opening up a cold case file. You know, something that the police have buried because they, you know, they couldn't find the answer. And that was that. I turned to my husband and I just said I don't care about this anymore. I just don't care. This is dead. So will you describe the letter to me? It's quite anodyne actually. It's just. How does it start? It says this is a bit of a flash from the past and I think of you often and thought I must write.

It was a long time ago that my daughter was ill and I cut myself off from people and she's come a long way. So that's how it started. I would love to hear from you and perhaps reconnect. I have such lovely memories of our times together and feel I need to apologise for losing touch. Will you read the end of it as well? There were very difficult times for us, but it's amazing how far along we've all come, fondest wishes. Maybe she did cut herself off from other people. I have no way of knowing that. All I know is that I would be very surprised

if she didn't have any friends for 15 years. What are you going to do? Well, we exchanged some texts and I said, I will contact you from this week onwards. So that's what I'm going to do. If somebody writes you something that is at least warm or the intention is warm, I'm not going to reject that. That's not the person I am. I'm not the to reject that that's not the person I am I'm not the type of person that says sorry you lost your chance, stuff you but I feel I was done wrong by How do you feel you were done wrong by?

I was cut off it wasn't just losing touch and I was very very miserable about it for a long long time and that's not something I can just totally put aside and not let her know. So we will be meeting up, I imagine, in the next week or so. I'm kind of perplexed as to how to go about it. I imagine, in a way, I'll just feel my way there but has this affected how you feel about making

other friends did it make you wary for a bit no not at all how much did it make you question yourself oh yes I did you wonder how important you are you wonder how significant you are at all especially I think if you've had one marriage that hasn't worked. You know, you think, gosh, am I so flawed in some way that people don't stick with me? Did it make you think that you'd done something wrong? It made me feel like I hadn't forged the closeness that I thought I had forged.

And it makes you feel like you've been deluded. I'm not valuable enough to hang on to, and that is terribly upsetting. Did it make you feel lonely? Yes, yes, it did. Do you think that you were sympathetic enough to your friend? Yes, I do. And I really was very concerned. And I think I said in this email or in the note that I left, please tell me what's going on. It wasn't, you know,

that I was being a gossip and I just wanted to find out what was going on. I really was very concerned because it was quite severe, obviously quite severe. Do you think that you were a good friend if my friends need me I am always here and I would hope they know that do you think that maybe she couldn't cope with what was happening with her daughter and she just shut everything down I absolutely do think that's what happened and I still think 15 years is a long time. There was a real deliberate cutting off of me. It wasn't just, look, I'm up to my neck. I'll be in touch too. You always go through issues with your children. Unfortunately, probably too many people knew about them. I don't know. I mean, that's my way is that, you know, unload.

But whatever it was, I didn't have what she needed. What do you think your friend thought when she looked at your family? That's interesting. Yes, at the time, we weren't having any problems. I've got to be honest. That is possibly something she found a bit painful. My daughter was flourishing. And maybe that was difficult for her to see. It could be. Did you miss her? Yes. Yes, I did. I really missed her. Did you think she'd be missing you? No, no. I really thought I was surplus to requirement. That was a part of her life that no longer had any relevance, no longer had any use.

But actually here she says... She says, I think of you often and thought I must write. You know, I wish I could have helped her through that horrible time. I wish there was something I could have helped with. She did, you know, yeah, I just would have done anything. But clearly I was not one of the elect. I'm about to leave for my ex-friend's house in about 10 minutes. I'm very nervous. My husband asked me what I'm going to say

and I guess the one thing I am going to ask is why now? What prompted this after 15 years of no communication whatsoever? I will let you know afterwards what transpires. Well, I went and saw my was-ex-friend, who I guess is my friend again. It was really, really lovely. We just sort of slotted in very easily. We didn't hug when I came in. I think we were both treading carefully.

She explained her position, which had been that when her daughter got ill, she just absolutely could not talk about it. And she became very isolated. I did explain how it had affected me and that I was wary of rekindling this. But I'm very glad I did. I'm glad, you know, she reached out and she said she was sorry. And I said, yeah, great. Let's just go on. I did ask, you know, why now? And she said, well, you've always just kept popping into my head. I'm in two minds as to whether to have this go out on the radio

because it did feel quite private. But I think I will tell her that when I received her letter, there was something so topical on Women's Hour, I was moved to contact. I think I should tell her and ask her if it's OK. Nina's friend did say it was OK, and I'm happy to report that their friendship is rekindled. Proof of the power of friendship and the power of Woman's Hour. And if you, like Nina, want to send your stories to Woman's Hour about friendship or anything else you heard on one of our programmes, you can email us. It's womanshour.yourviews at bbc.co.uk or find us at BBC Woman's Hour on Twitter and Instagram.

Our next guest, who we are calling Christina, did just that. She got in touch with the programme after listening to Annie and Lizzie's interview, which you'll have heard at the beginning of this podcast. Having ended contact with three of her close friends in just four years, Christina wanted to ask if she was the reason her friendships kept falling apart. This is her side of the story. She acknowledges that, but she is asking herself some big questions. Jo went to meet her. My mum used to say to me, if one person tells you you're drunk, you go, no, we're in a party, we're having a good time.

When two people tell you you're drunk, you go home and put yourself to bed. There's always something about mums telling you things which you never really listen to at the time until it's too late and they're gone, and then you think, ah, she did know. My mum was a very wise woman. You heard our feature and you wrote us an email, and your email really struck us.

Oh. Because you said, i'm 67 i've just lost my three best friends 35 years standing yeah and i'm utterly bereft yeah i'm not crying it's a question of are you really who you think you are? So are you this lovely, friendly, jolly person? Or are you a bit of a cow? And if one or two people or three people or four people start going, you're a cow, then maybe you are. And that is what I did to myself from losing the friendships.

It did make me question myself. It made me stop and think, was it me? Was it me? Was it me? And does it happen to other people other than me? And I'm thinking, I can't be the only one who has gone through this. And I hope I'm not the only one who's gone through this because then I really am in trouble because that makes me a terrible person.

But I don't think I am because the circumstances on all three were very different. Have you got some photos of your friends or you guys when you were younger? person but I don't think I am because the circumstances on all three were very different. Have you got some photos of your friends or you guys when you were younger? So this is my son's wedding. There is friend number one, friend number two, friend number three should have been there and wasn't because her dog had died a week before. So how long ago did the first friendship break down? Four years ago.

And the second? Less than two years ago, and the other one was July this year. Every two years, I'm dropping a friend. So so many photos and so many memories. That's my friend, yeah. And that's friend number two, and that's her oldest daughter, who's best friends with my son. That's my goddaughter, the youngest daughter, who is friends with my youngest son. I mean, my oldest son, they're all friends together.

They all go out and do things together with their kids, which is the way it should be. Is it hard for you with the kids? I'm sad. I'd like to know their children. You know, I would have expected to have time for them to come over and be part of our lives. So what did you think when you heard our call out for women going through friendship difficulties? What did you think? I thought, ah, maybe here's some way I can find out what's gone wrong. It's floored me and I've just kind of buttoned up and whatever.

Listening to the programme really hit home and it made me sit down and write, which I don't normally do. And I thought, I actually don't have the toolkit to deal with this myself. Am I wrong or am I right? Did I handle it the best way possible? What struck me most of all was listening to Lizzie and Annie talking and reconciling. There was no rancour. They've managed to kind of get through it and sort it and go out the other side of it. Why do you think we find it so hard to talk about

the fawnier side of female friendship? Ah, I think that goes back to girls being told to be good little girls and nice and kind and sweet and smiley. But women have that nastiness inside of them. We all do, and we know it. And sometimes, ooh, here's a revelation, with your best friends it comes out.

And that's okay. That is okay. What happened with your best friends it comes out and that's okay that is okay what happened with your three friends something changed obviously yeah so if i go to friend number one i got together with my now husband she was the first person we invited to the house. She was very angry with me because we were talking about various things that we had planned for the spring and the summer, things that my then partner had organised and that I was then being included in on because I had moved in with him.

And I got an absolute shrieking diatribe about not going to her son's wedding and I just went what would you like me to do would you like me to apologize for finding a partner moving in going on holidays with him and being unable to come out for three weeks for your son's wedding so she said yes I I apologise, would you like another cup of tea? But I had gone cold inside, because I thought, who are you? So what happened with friendship number two? I made the fatal error of renting my former home, a flat just down the road, to my goddaughter, her daughter. Huge mistake.

My friend got in touch with me and said, this has fundamentally changed our friendship and I don't want to discuss it. And I said, well, maybe we should discuss it. No, I'm not discussing it. And that was the end of that. And have you seen her since then? I saw her at our mutual friends, the number one's wedding a couple of weeks ago. Hello, how are you? Lovely, how are you? Lovely.

What did that feel like for you? You know the film Sliding Doors? I never understood that film. Now I do. Had things been normal, this would have happened. Things are not normal, this has happened. Two completely different scenarios. So what would have happened if things were normal, this would have happened. Things are not normal, this has happened. Two completely different scenarios. So what would have happened if things were normal?

Big hugs, big kisses. Can't believe it, so excited. The other, what are you wearing? What are you not wearing? I can't believe you're not wearing a bra, which I couldn't, but I couldn't say anything. It's like, really? Our age? Sweetie pie.

Are you someone who often says the wrong thing? Or puts your foot in it? Not often, but sometimes I go, whoops. Not in a mean mean way i speak my mind has that got you into trouble i've lost three friends who knows who knows this is why i now understand why people go into therapy because you do things you don't quite understand why you've done them and you want something to be different but you don't want something to be different, but you don't want it to be different. And what happened with... Friend number three?

Yeah. This is recent. This is very recent. This is literally within the past six, seven weeks. You said something. I said something to her son-in-law at an event over a year ago, which she picked up on two weeks before she pulled the plug on our friendship an unfortunate comment about his appearance which i should have known better

there was a huge amount of banter um going on i've known them for years you know you say things to your friends kids you you drosh about with them you've known them since they were small people did you know that you'd put your foot in it straight away or did you go home and think, oh, that was a lovely day? I went home and thought that was a lovely day. Never dawned on me. Maybe that's my problem. Didn't dawn on me.

I am no saint. No one is. But that one floored me. They all floored me. You can't spend your life censoring what your thoughts are. But you try what do you think was at the heart of this? What do you think perhaps

caused the friendship breakup? Me getting my stuff together me sorting my life out I was no longer the divorced three job single parent stressed out running around like a lunatic running from

one penny to the next woman I looked fantastic I mean seriously fantastic maybe some people had a problem dealing with that do you think perhaps not everyone has a talent for making friends I have two or three other girlfriends who I am close to now, I am closer to over the past few years, and I count myself very fortunate to having been given new friendships, which will be treasured maybe a little bit more than the old ones. There's a statement. Did I take them for granted?

I don't know. I would say to people don't take your friends for granted go back and look at your friendships and examine them I've got maybe another 20 years if I'm lucky ahead of me I've got different friendships now

I've got a second chance at good friendships and isn't that wonderful? It is wonderful. That was a Woman's Hour listener, who we're calling Christina, sharing her experience of friendship. Now, earlier in this episode,

we heard from close friends in their 30s, Natalia and Daniela. They described how they fell out and then reunited again during their teenage years. But what happens when you get a bit older and serious romantic relationships start to impact on your friendships? How do you tell a friend you don't like her boyfriend? Or should you tell her at all?

Well, here are Dan and Nat again, speaking to Jo Morris. So how old are you now, Dan? 33. So you've been friends for over 20 years yes god yeah god i just love hearing that i don't haven't actually like 20 years it's like isn't that beautiful that you can have a friendship for 20 years they love each other so much as teenagers but only you've only really known each other for like a couple of years um really and to be able to say 20 years that's such a privilege i think waiting to you as old as me I wouldn't even call it a friendship,

because she, like, knows my soul better than anyone. Has it always felt like that? Yeah. Always? Apart from the bit where we weren't friends. In the bits where we were friends, yes. I think it's only become really, really solid again in the last few years. I think having the rocky times and having each other around while we went through

some rough romantic relationships has actually been the making of us in a strange way. A lot of the time when I talk about Daniela to partners, I think I'm trying to think of ways to justify her because I know they won't understand the way we function as friends. And I find that annoying because I shouldn't have to explain it I choose to have that kind of friendship and my ex-partner just didn't get it he didn't understand and he once thought Daniella was being rude to me and she probably was being a bit of a we were a bit drunk and playing a game and she was a bit mean, but it doesn't matter.

But he held on to it. So every time I then spoke about her, it felt uncomfortable. I don't think he was jealous or anything like that. I think he was more protective in an irritating way. And protective is something I didn't need protecting from because he's my best friend. What did it feel like having someone say, I don't like your friend? Really uncomfortable.

We then hung out again and it was kind of fine, but there was always this kind of feeling where I didn't want to tell him too much. My now partner, he doesn't stick his nose into it. In the nicest way possible, it's not really anyone's business but mine and Daniela's. And I think as you get older, you also can have a soulmate and a partner and a best friend, do you know what I mean, and different people for different things.

I didn't acknowledge that I was not in a very good relationship until I was out of it and realised it was really, really not healthy. But you don't really see it when you're in it, do you? It takes a real skill to finally see it. You don't sit down and go, this is a really bad relationship, let's stop it. Something else juts out of position, which is what happened and we broke up.

I really regret not seeing that a partner of hers was really bad for her. I was so consumed by the fact he didn't like me. Maybe it's my ego that got in the way. I was just like, what? I don't understand. He thought I was bad for her. I was so consumed by the fact he didn't like me. Maybe it's my ego that got in the way. I was just like, what? I don't understand. He thought I was bad for her and I put too much effort into, okay, I need to get him to see that I love her. I think that's how I fell into the trap of thinking that he was a good guy. Daniella, actually, she was a fan of him up until we broke up. And then I started kind of going through the way our relationship was

and she was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry, I was his fan, I'm so sorry. When you're in a whirlwind of a bad relationship and everything that comes with that, you start to think things that aren't your thoughts, that are someone else's thoughts and ideas about what's going on with you. He clearly wasn't that important because we're not together anymore. We ended up being friends. I think that pretty much sums it up. And how has Natalia navigated your partners? She has been excited for me to be loved.

She was central to my support system when I needed to leave a bad relationship it was really helpful because she was emotionally intelligent enough to know it's not that easy to leave situations like that it wasn't I leave this man right now she knew that I'd probably be stuck in it for a while and I felt loved and supported in those moments because otherwise I felt like a failure and that helped me a bit more honest because you'd hide a lot of stuff from your friends don't you because you don't want them to be hurt on your behalf or so you're hiding stuff from Natalia and yeah of course I became distant I think I definitely drew away from her for a bit so Dan's talked to me about difficulties

in her previous relationship yes he was emotionally abusing her one night we were out somewhere and I saw the switch in his eyes you come from houses of men who are not delightful have all been there haven't we and we know what those eyes mean and we know they don't just come around once and we know they always come back and what was it like you watching dan and your friend in that situation really horrible to watch i was so scared they would get married or that she would have his child and there would be no way out did you know what to say it's very hard in those situations, isn't it, that you're worried if you say something, you might scare her off.

Yeah, I didn't know what to say, if I'm honest. I was figuring it out as I went along. I was really aware that I didn't want her to stop talking to me, so I tried to leave my judgment at the door. But the thing is, I have no judgment. I've seen my mum in it. Any of us are susceptible to this at any time in our lives. Like I never understand people who are like, I'm not going to talk to you until we break up

with him. She's the one going through a hard time. She's clearly not choosing to be in a horrible time in her life. Doing everything to retain her talking to me was the objective. And sometimes she wouldn't for a while, and then it would all spill out, and then she'd change her mind, and you'd be like, OK, cool, that's what we're doing today. We're going to like him, OK. And today we're going to hate him, OK. And you have to kind of be along for the ride for all of it

because you're not going to live their life for them, are you? And it's not like I'm not going to be her friend because she's having a hard time. Do you think she was honest with you about how she was feeling? Sometimes. Not always. Sometimes. When you're in a relationship like that, you feel probably a lot of shame. You feel embarrassed that you're letting yourself be treated that way,

but also, along with that, you feel protective over this person who has his grip inside you you're in survival mode and survival means protecting him I didn't want to sit around drinking wine slating my boyfriend I just needed the acknowledgement that things went okay and the trust in me to make the right choice eventually I think she's the only person that told me it could take a while it's going to take you a while to see what I can see so I'm just going to wait out until you're ready and then when you're ready to I'll be here and that was really really helpful she just texted me saying Dan I found the person I want to spend my life

with which I get a text like that every now and then talking but she's talking about her current partner it's like I've convinced him to marry me like we're gonna do it so it's just like she's such a romantic I love it she's so open and always has been it's always worn a heart on her sleeve so you like her partner at the moment yeah love him yeah he's great for her really great for her it took me so many years to understand how she loves me because she is closed but it's taken me a really long time to understand how she shows it and how she gives love it's not the way I do but it's so loyal I feel like we can be like quite proud of having got through all of the bits of friendship that are really hard to get through.

And I don't think everyone would have. God, aren't we lucky? Aren't we lucky that we had each other? That was Natalia and Daniela speaking to reporter Jo Morris. Thank you to all our guests for giving us insight into the pain and also the power of female friendship. Remember, you can listen to Woman's Hour live on weekdays from 10am and Saturdays at 4pm, or catch up anytime on BBC Sounds. Just search for Woman's Hour in the app. Thank you. I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service,

The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.