Woman's Hour - Forgotten Children, Headteacher Evelyn Forde, The Archers' June Spencer remembered

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

A new Woman's Hour series, Forgotten Children, explores the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. Reporter Jo Morris hears from Kerry Wright, who was just 17 and living in Spain with her parents when British police arrived at their door and arrested both of them. Kerry’s parents were sentenced to prison in the UK, forcing her to leave her studies at an international school in Spain and return to England, uncertain of how to support herself.COP29, the UN's annual climate conference, kicks off today in Baku, Azerbaijan, where leaders from around 200 nations will gather to discuss strategies for limiting climate change. Emiliya Mychasuk, climate editor at the Financial Times, joins Nuala McGovern to talk about the new women’s leadership coalition. Evelyn Forde was the first black female President of the Association of School and College Leaders, awarded an MBE for services to education, and named Times Educational Supplement Headteacher of the Year in 2020. In her book Herstory: A Leadership Manifesto, she shares her journey through the education system, her experiences of racism in her career, alongside the testimonies of other black leaders in the sector. With just 1% of headteachers in state schools in England from a black background, she joins Nuala to discuss why she thinks urgent action is needed to address the issue in education. June Spencer, who played matriarch Peggy Woolley in The Archers for nearly 70 years—from 1951 until her retirement in 2022—has died at the age of 105. As one of the show’s original cast members, she was described by current editor Jeremy Howe as "a legend." Pat Gallimore, who plays Pat Archer and was Peggy's daughter-in-law in the series, joins Nuala to pay tribute.A hundred years on we celebrate the Electrical Association for Women. It became pivotal in emancipating women from the drudgery of everyday manual household tasks through the use of electricity, enabling women more time and opportunity to enter the labour market.  It also pioneered electrical safety, standardising the three pin plug. Nuala hears from 91-year-old Adrienne Peters, who was an early member and, Henrietta Heald, historian and author of Magnificent women and their revolutionary machines.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Dianne McGregor

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2. And of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme. Peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, this is Nuala McGovern and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello, welcome to the programme. It is good to be back with you. I was in Washington DC for the US election last week. And so now a new chapter is about to begin in the United States. The election raises questions on how US policy will change under Donald Trump. And one of those is climate change. No doubt it'll be one of the discussions taking place at COP29. That is the climate change conference you're hearing about

in the bulletin there that's kicking off in Azerbaijan. But other topics about the lack of women represented and why the Taliban will reportedly attend for the first time since they took power in Afghanistan are other conversations taking place. We're going to hear more from Baku shortly. Also today, we begin our week-long series on forgotten children. We'll hear from families impacted when parents go to prison. Kerry was just 17 when both her parents were imprisoned, leaving her to fend for herself, her remarkable story coming up this hour. We also have former headteacher Evelyn Ford, who has written a manifesto to tackle racism she has experienced when it comes to leadership

positions in education. Also, like the AI of its time, we are to hear about the electrical revolution that changed the lives of women in the home. And we're are to hear about the electrical revolution that changed the lives of women in the home and we're going to hear from one of the women who was there plus one of the cast members of The Archers on the legacy of June Spencer who played Peggy Woolley in the radio drama for 70 years June Spencer has died at the age of 105

if you want to get in touch with the programme on any of the conversations you hear, the number is 84844 on text, at BBC Women's Hour on social media, and for a WhatsApp message or a voice note, that number is 03700 100444.

But let us begin. At COP29, the UN's annual climate conference, as I mentioned, it's in Baku this year. It's the capital of Azerbaijan. There are world leaders from around 200 nations due to appear over the next couple of weeks, but there are some noticeable absences, at the moment anyway, from the US, France and China.

The assembled delegates are going to discuss ways to limit and prepare for future climate change. There is a particular focus on how to finance poorer countries' adaptation to climate change. And the long-term plan, as you might know, is to limit long-term global temperature rises to 1.5 degrees Celsius. That's the target set by the Paris Agreement back in 2015.

But today we want to look at why a new Women's Leadership Coalition is to be formally launched at COP and also at the reports that a delegation of the Afghan Taliban government are to attend with an observer role. Well, let me turn to Amelia Mahasuk at the Financial Times climate editor who's in Baku. I noticed you were writing a piece this morning. Good to have you with us, Amelia. This is your fourth COP, I believe. It is, yes. And I have yet to go to the COP stadium, so I'd be very interested to see how

it compares to the other ones. They've had a slightly checkered track record in terms of the treatment of women in the last two or three, it has to be said, really since Glasgow, which was in 2021. And do you think that's maybe at the heart of the catalyst of why this leadership coalition, it's called Women Leading on Climate Change, has evolved? Yes, definitely. the Women Leading on Climate Change was sparked by the fact that the COP presidency, this one at Azerbaijan, did not include any women in its initial organising committee of 24 people.

They subsequently, in fact some of the women who were involved in this Women Leading on Climate initiative were among those who rallied a letter at the time to object from all kinds of prominent women to the fact that there were no women represented on the organising committee and subsequently another 12 women and two men were added to that committee. It was expanded to 48. It is now 55 strong, the organising committee, but it still doesn't have gender parity. So there was a response, but perhaps not to the extent that they would have liked. Tell me a little bit more about some of the women.

I saw that signed that letter trying to push for that change. Yes, these are women who have actually been involved in climate change action for quite some time. So, for example, the former Canadian climate minister, Catherine McKenna, she is also on the UN Secretary General's high-level executive group, as they call it, and that group helps put together reports on what corporate behaviour should be. So she's been quite involved. But even so, I think she has felt that the last couple of cops

have not been as representative, and particularly this one. So she and Maria Mendoluzzi, who works for the We Mean Business Coalition, which is just what it says. It's a coalition of different companies, all sorts of companies, IKEA and Temasek and others all around the world who signed that letter initially to try and get more women on the organising committee. And they had a launch of their cause

in New York at New York Climate Week. And they had this enormous turnout. They had the German climate envoy, Jennifer Morgan, the UK envoy, although she hadn't been announced then, Rachel Kite, and the former French climate envoy, Laurence Tubiana, who was in charge of the French delegation during the Paris Agreement. So you have these women who have had quite a lot of history.

It's not like they just decided that they're doing this this year. But not sometimes front facing roles, I think, which is the crux of this issue. Exactly. So we have a lot of delegations here from different countries where they negotiate, they get in the room and they discuss things like climate finance and adaptation measures and so on. And in those country delegations, there are quite a lot of women involved, but quite often they're doing this sort of grinding work of staying up through the night and arguing and haggling over words and arguing is kind of not quite right. It's more that high-level negotiation that you have to do,

that you have to have some empathy with. And so it's slightly pejorative, but they do seem to be the ones that can get the text agreed. And then quite often it's a male minister that is presenting the final outcome because the ministerial delegations tend to be led by men, and that's to do with power structures across the world, really. Well, let's talk about male power structures across the world, specifically Afghanistan.

Its foreign ministry says it is sending a delegation to the summit on an invite from the host, Azerbaijan. They have tried the Taliban to attend COPS in years past. The former Afghan lawmaker and peace negotiator, Afazia Koufi, who we speak regularly on Women's Hour, she has been so critical of the Taliban being invited to attend. What are you hearing about it? Well, I've read that that's the case. It'll be interesting to see whether that has some resonance

amongst the civil society groups that are here, whether they're prompted to protest. And that leads us to another thing, which is about whether protest will be allowed here. In the UAE, where the previous COP was, protest was only allowed in a very limited way inside what they call the blue zone, which is a UN territory and not outside of that. So that will be one thing to see. The COP, ironically, or the UN and the COP presidency of each country in a rotating basis, ironically, sort of emphasises inclusivity. And they use that sort of as a way of saying why all of the oil and gas countries should be here to aid climate progress.

But that inclusivity obviously hasn't quite gone as far as to the women of Afghanistan. And I suppose geographically where Azerbaijan is as well, kind of in between Russia and Iran, if we start thinking about geopolitical issues. I mean, this came up last year when it was in Dubai. Some people wondering of where COP takes place, whether that makes a difference to the outcomes that can be achieved briefly. Yes, I mean, that's a good question. And the UAE would say that they were able, because they are inclusive, they were able to reach out to a wide coalition and therefore were listened to more and were able to make more progress last year. They were able to get included,

transition away from fossil fuels in the language of the final climate agreement. We've heard nothing about fossil fuels in this particular COP yet in any of the agenda items. That's partly because Azerbaijan says, well, that was dealt with last year. I guess the question is, what happens for the next COP in Brazil, which is also a petro-state? Emilia Mahasuk, thank you so much. Financial Times climate editor spending some time with us on her way to the conference centre of COP. We have asked for a statement from the UN. We have not heard back as of yet. On Wednesday, we'll be discussing climate change and maternal outcomes and women's issues in greater detail with researcher Adelaide Lusambili and Fiona Harvey, the environment editor at The

Guardian, who is also at the summit. So do stay with us for that. Now it's time for the first part of our week-long series, Forgotten Children, which looks at the impact on families when one or both parents are sent to prison. This year, the UK prison population reached approximately 97,700 people. This is its highest ever number. And often when someone is imprisoned, they leave families behind to cope with their absence. Reporter Jo Morris spoke to Kerry Wright, who was 17 and living in Spain with her parents, when British police knocked on the door and arrested both of them. Kerry has chosen not to disclose her parents' crimes.

They were both sentenced to prison in the UK, and Kerry had to abandon her studies at an international school in Spain and return to England with no idea of how to support herself. Kerry described how she felt when her parents were arrested. I just wanted to scream. I just wanted to run arrested. I just wanted to scream. I just wanted to run away. I just wanted to tell them to go away. But I literally remember freezing.

I didn't really react. I didn't cry. I didn't do anything like that. I just froze. Then I remember when the door shut, I kind of went in this weird mode of being like, right, what do I do? OK, I need to pack a bag. I need to go. I need to go back to the UK. And I was just thinking, what's going to happen now? I'm going to be by myself now.

You know, it was just all the questions of are they going to be OK? Am I going to be OK? Where are they going to be okay where are they going to be taken I'm going to have to drop out of school because all this was happening during like my a-level exams and deadline week and how did the police treat you when they came in it was just like they just treated me with disregard they just ignored me pretty much there was no care or consideration put in for me because as they were being taken away I remember so so clearly one of the officers saying oh now this is done we can go for a glass of wine can't we and I remember just thinking like a glass of wine you've literally just you're not gonna ask're not going to ask me what I'm going to do, what I'm going to have for my tea?

It felt so surreal that I just stood there and listened to that whilst watching my parents be carted off. Did they ask you how old you were? No. No. And I've got a baby face. And I guess I felt, and it's a similar feeling, I felt a lot through all this, but I felt so out of control. I felt hopeless.

I felt dread, not knowing what's going to happen next. It's just, you know, seeing your parents look helpless as well. But also I was scared, I was so scared because where would I go? That was one of the main questions, where would I go? So when you arrived in the UK, what did you have with you? I had, like, one bag of, like, just clothes, some toiletries, £100, that was it. Could you have stayed in the family home that you were in in Spain?

No, no, I had to go, yeah. From that point on, I was staying at friends. So I'd go and stay with them for one night quite often on their sofa and then I would see who which friend was free the next night but I'd never I never said it in a way I don't have anywhere to live I would present as oh should we have a sleepover or haven't seen you in ages are you free tonight can I stay at yours we could do something until like there was less and less people I could ask because every time I was starting to outstay my welcome and it was getting to the point where I was struggling and I think that's one thing actually where people just assume with kids or young people that when

their parents are you know arrested and put in prison that they've got family to go to whereas that didn't work out for me and it's something that I still find quite painful. How quickly did you become aware of the sort of social stigma around this? I remember telling my friend about it and she said oh come and stay with me I then got a phone call from her mum saying that she didn't want me there because she didn't want my friend to get involved she didn't want to get involved in any of this and that's when I was like oh okay so I remember being gutted like I was like oh no it's no big deal no biggie and then on the inside I was just like I didn't expect that from her I felt I guess that I was being blamed for my parents for what they've done even though I had nothing to do with it obviously I was a child people don't want to be associated with me now.

And I noticed as well, so when all the articles started coming out... In the press? In the press, sorry. That's when, you know, friends started to drop off. You know, you don't hear from them anymore. And that kind of added to the loneliness because you're like, who do I, who can I rely on? So when you were back in the South East, you were sofa surfing,

did anyone professional offer you any help anywhere? Anyone signpost you or anything? No-one did, no. The police didn't, the council didn't. Like, an education. Did the police know you were there? Yeah, and they knew I wasn't with family or anything. There was nothing, there was no support.

How many times did you go to the council? At least four or five. I did go to the housing office, but I remember sitting there in front of this woman. I literally begged them, like, can you do something? I'm desperate. I have nowhere to go. I'd rather go into care than, like, not have anywhere to live. And when they were still saying, well, no, there's nothing we can do,

that was when I just felt complete hopelessness. But I was too old for the care system. So your friend Liv and her mum... Carly. Carly. Yeah. Eventually offered you somewhere to stay. And it just so happened that her friend had a bedroom.

This is private, like a private rental. So that was probably the turning point. I was like, right, yeah, like, someone cares about me, like someone wants to help me. So what did you do for money and how did you get by? So it was £57 a week. Once I'd taken that money out to pay for the rest of my rent, it was £30 a week, so that would cover everything else.

You know, you're a 17 year old young woman I imagine what would you do if you wanted to buy a new top? Yeah, I just didn't You just didn't? Yeah, I lived in hand-me-downs and I didn't have any winter clothes and I couldn't afford a winter coat

and it was my best friend's mum who bought me a winter coat for Christmas I always remember that because I honestly don't think she realised how thankful I was because I didn't even have the right clothes for the UK. You know, I didn't have any of that. So you were cold? Yeah, just to go with the other feelings of it all. I was cold as well, physically.

You're laughing. Yeah, you've got to find some humour in it. I was cold as well, physically. You're laughing. Yeah. You've got to find some humour in it. Like, and quite often, I would have to have the choice of either paying for food or going to see my parents. So I'd go and see my parents. I lost so much weight in this time.

Just through, like, the stress and everything. Yeah, and plus I just didn't have the money to feed myself. But I would always make sure I would have a chocolate and a cup of tea when I went to visit my parents so that it weren't obvious that... You didn't want them to see that? No, no. Because I just thought they have enough to worry about. They'd be worrying about me so much that I didn't want to add to it as well.

You don't realise how much you take for granted of coming home to your parents or coming home to someone you love. And it's something I really appreciate now. But at the time, I really craved it. And I guess it didn't really go until I had my parents... My parents came out of prison, actually. What did you need, Kerry, at that point of parental arrest and afterwards? What would have been useful to you?

This sounds really easy, and I'm not saying it would be right for everyone, but for me personally, I really needed someone to say, are you OK? What are you doing? Where are you living? Just some sort of empathy, like, how can we support you? As in a service. Anyone to, like, just show me that they care. Yeah, that's what I needed then.

How do you feel about that now? Angry. And I just worry about all the young people that experience their parents or family members being arrested. And it's just the experiences that they have as well. So how did all of this affect your schooling? You were in the middle of your A-levels. Yeah. What did you do about school? Yeah, so I retook my A-levels, starting all over again in the South East

and I found it quite difficult with everything that was going on like I actually kept it a secret for a long time from my tutors because I didn't want them to know that I had parents in prison until it came to parents evening and they wondered why I didn't have a parent with me so I thought I can't lie about this I'm gonna have to just tell them and it was like they used that against me from then on so when it come to applying for university my tutor said to me I don't think you should apply for university I think it's going to be too overwhelming for you because of your unstable background you need to be realistic that's what she was saying to me um and I did get into uni by the way and yeah

amazing I was the first person in my family to go to uni what did that feel like? it felt the relief of knowing where I was going to be for three years because I was like there's some stability I'm going to be at uni for three years

what's been the emotional impact of all of this on you, Kerry? Are the effects of it still with you? Yeah, definitely. So I do suffer from anxiety and I do think that comes from losing everything. Losing everything? Yeah.

But I guess a positive to come out of it. I'm so resilient. I literally have a tattoo of resilience on my arm. And also it's made me so independent. So you've written a play about your experience and it's called...? It's called Kayleigh. It's about 18-year-old Kayleigh. She's just turned 18.

Her mum's in prison and it's about her navigating her life without the support that she needs from her mum. And also because I wanted to make explicitly clear that it's Kayleigh's journey that we're following. It's never ever mentioned to why her mum's in prison. I knew that as soon as I'd mention the reason why her mum's in prison is that people would focus on that story when that's not what we're talking about here. It's actually, you know, of so many real journeys

that people go on who have parents in prison. So when people ask you, oh, what do your parents do, what do you think's forgotten in that? I think quite often it's the fact that they forget me. All the narrative just turns onto them. And don't get me wrong, their story's just as important, but it's a different story, what I'm trying to tell here, because it's not about them.

It's about me and about the experiences that happened and I yeah I felt so lost and forgotten in that time like with no one wanting to be there for me like I just thought is it because of me what have I done wrong so was it like a way of processing some of your feelings yeah Yeah, definitely. Definitely brought stuff up as well. I can imagine. I was just like, oh, that still hurts. Why does that still hurt? What was it like when you saw it performed for the first time? I was so nervous.

I felt so vulnerable again. I was like, oh, I felt like I'd bared my soul on the stage, but it allowed me to take that power back. It got such good response and it got like a four-star review from the Yorkshire Post. If it all works out, fingers crossed, it's going to go on tour autumn 2025. Did your mum and dad come and see the play? Yeah, both of them came to see it.

I think my mum came to nearly every performance. It was nice to see them, see from my perspective as well. Extraordinary Kerry Wright there speaking to our reporter Jo Morris as part of our Forgotten Children series on parental imprisonment. If you head to our social media accounts

at BBC Women's Hour later this morning, you can watch a video of Kerry there. Tomorrow, we're going to be discussing the current provision for children whose parents are imprisoned and what the current government intends to do about the families that are struggling to cope with the impact of parental imprisonment. A little later this week, we're going to hear from a grandmother who took in her five grandchildren when her daughter was imprisoned. And we'll also hear from Emily, whose ex-husband was sentenced for crimes against her, but whose children struggled with the stigma of having a parent in prison. Something that resonates there. 84844 is the number today. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories

I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this?

From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now. Text me. I want to turn to a book now that the author has said might not be your regular book about education.

That author is Evelyn Ford. She was the first black female president of the Association of Schools and College Leaders, that is a trade union and professional association. The book is called Her Story, A Leadership leadership manifesto. And Evelyn shares her journey through the education system, including her experiences of racism in her career, some of which I want you to know we may talk about and you may hear repeated during our conversation. Here's a figure. Just 1% of headteachers in state schools in England are black.

Evelyn argues that systemic racism persists in education and that action is needed to address the issue. Some of Evelyn's accomplishments include an MBE for services to education. She was named Times Educational Supplement Headteacher of the Year in 2020. And last year, she decided to step down from her role as a secondary head in a state school. Welcome back to Woman's Hour. Thank you for having me. Delighted to be here. You call your book a manifesto. You also say it might not be your regular book about education that I mentioned

and also that this may not be a book everyone is ready to read. Why? Yeah, because it's my story. And it's titled her story. So I just think race can make people feel uncomfortable. And my experiences were pretty horrific. And I just think that some people may not want to hear that. But that was the main reason why I wrote it, because we really need to make a difference on the leadership landscape in education. Tell me a little bit then about your experiences or the challenges that you faced. I left school with no qualifications. This is an incredible story. I left school with no qualifications at a time when it was quite easy to jump the fence, right? And jump the fence, you mean not attend school? Not attend school. So leaving with no qualifications and then much later on as a young adult thinking I needed to go back into education. I just realised, and I didn't want my experiences

to be that of children in schools. And I didn't want my experiences to be that for my own girls. I've got three girls. So going back into education to get my degree and my teacher qualification was really, really important to me. And it was when I was doing a night course that there was a black lecturer who said to me, you need to go back and get your GCSEs. So I saw somebody who looked like me. I saw somebody who took the time to say, go and do something. So that's kind of sat with me all those years. So hence my reason for going back into education. And then when I became a teacher, absolutely loved it. Teaching is a fabulous gig, don't get me wrong. Absolutely loved it. And then I realised that I wanted to

make more of an impact. I wanted to be somebody who could make decisions that would affect thousands of young people, hence wanting to become a head teacher. I think I was pretty naive in that I think I made an assumption that I'd done all this training, I was a great teacher, that actually going into leadership would be not a walk in the park but it wouldn't be as challenging um i went for approximately anything between i lose count right anything between 11 and 18 deputy head interviews um often getting down to the final two because that's how it works they make a cut on day one get down to the final final two. And I just wasn't getting the jobs. And I just couldn't get my head around it.

And were you sure that was to do with race or could other teachers with different ethnicities, be it white or whatever, apply for the same amount, perhaps getting down to the last two? Well, when you get feedback along the lines of we're just not sure how our community would relate to you I think it's a lot you got that I got that what was your response to the people I was just shocked you know and sometimes you're so shocked that you really don't know how to respond and so I just kind of thought okay I'll just keep going back, keep going back until I get that job. And I did get a job and I did get a substantive deputy head position. And, you know, again, like I say, working in education is an amazing, amazing experience. And I've only ever really worked in those kind of tough inner city schools that really need really need that help to kind of move them on and i think the racism that really shocked me to my core and actually shocks lots of people

is when i was working in a school and uh a tough school you have a standard you really needed to improve standards and i was holding a member of staff to account. And she was overheard referring to me as a frizzy-haired gollywog. That is a shocking statement just for our listeners that are hearing that as well. We're speaking about them because these are your experiences. These are my lived experiences. And we are hearing what you went through and the challenges that you feel are faced. This is an illustration of it. Did you confront that person? I didn't confront that person directly. But what I did was, and I think this is the issue. The statement was bad enough in itself. And then

when it was brought to the headteacher at the time the response was was not was not great actually and the head teacher felt that because I hadn't heard it directly that there was nothing that could be done about it and so that's an issue that we really need to address in schools because these conversations these statements some conversations are taking place. And actually, we as black people in education, we need to be listened to and we need to be made to feel safe. Some might say that there are laws on the books when it comes to speech or hate speech that should be counteracting some of what you're saying. Yeah, agreed. But who's holding everybody to account? And I think until we've got the Department for Education really shining a lens on our experiences, some of our experiences, actually many of our experiences as black leaders can be swept under the carpet. I just want to read a statement from the Department of Education spokesperson.

We want teaching to be a supportive and inclusive profession. We know how important it is that we attract and retain talented teachers from all backgrounds to deliver on our mission to break down barriers to opportunity for all children. Issues around diversity, recruitment and retention have been neglected for too long. While the data shows things are improving gradually, we are working hard to recruit and support the progression of teachers from all backgrounds, including through our commitment to 6,500 more teachers in schools and colleges. Your response? I welcome that statement and I've heard the 6,500 recruitment figure for a while now.

What I would like is a sharper lens on the ethnic diversity within those figures. So let's talk about that. What is standing in the way? What is standing in the way from? In the sense of particularly

black teachers getting to those leadership positions. Yeah, I think there is a lot of unconscious bias. I think there is when you look at senior leadership teams and I say it in the book, when you look at a lot of senior leadership teams, they are predominantly white. OK, it's neither healthy nor progressive. when you look at a lot of senior leadership teams, they are predominantly white. OK, it's neither healthy nor progressive. And therefore, you get stuck with the status quo. And there is something about being comfortable in those situations, is my view, that to actually then go out and actively recruit teachers and leaders from ethnically diverse backgrounds.

I just think that there are some leadership teams that are just not ready for that. That's number one. How do you make them ready for it? Because I'm thinking, is this like an issue in society or within its educational establishments? I would say it's in society, but my focus is education. Of course. And I'm just wondering how you can ignite that change or make it happen if it's something that's reflecting society at large.

Well, first of all, let's acknowledge it. And I think until people are ready to stand up and say this is not OK, the fact that we've got 1% of headteachers who are black is not OK. So I think what we first need to do is acknowledge that it's a problem um i think secondly we need to have a call for action and the dfe don't have any targets around this they don't have any targets around recruitment for black leaders is that what you want i would love to see? I would love to see that. I would love to see. So when new teachers are beginning their training, that's the initial teacher training. Let's have some racial literacy training, you know, because some of our new teachers are going in and look at our society today. We're more diverse than we've ever been. And actually,

we need to equip our new teachers to be able to engage in these conversations so I'd like to see some racial literacy training what would that look like that would look like knowing how to have a conversation because about race about race it's difficult and some people shy away from it and I always say it's OK to maybe not know the language, not know, you know, what's current at the moment, but at least try. And let's let's just begin that and practices um a really really simple example would be um there's a fabulous organization called who've got um and they look at hair discrimination and it's called the halo code so that you know anybody can go into school wearing whatever kind of hairstyle and so on that's this quick and simple

win why don't we do that that would be really inclusive so that is some of the acknowledgement some of the education what you've talked about your own story um about how it took you so long to get to deputy head but what other barriers do you see for black teachers trying to get to those senior level leadership levels? It's opportunities. I just don't think we're given the same opportunities as some of our white counterparts. And I've spoken to many, many middle middle leaders who say to me, I joined at the same time, we're both kind of in the same position. And that white teacher is getting an additional financial responsibility point. And I'm not that teacher is getting those opportunities. And I just think that schools, leaders, trust leaders,

they need to scan the horizon of their schools, they need to see the amazing potential out there and tap people on the shoulder give people the opportunities to success Do you feel that will happen in short order? I think that the more we keep talking about it and if the department engaged with us I think we could begin to move the dial I just want to read also a statement from Emma Hollis And if the department engaged with us, I think we could begin to move the dial.

I just want to read also a statement from Emma Hollis. This is chief executive of the National Association of School Based Teacher Trainers, which represents school based initial teacher training providers. Lack of diversity in the teaching workforce is a persistent issue in the UK education system in terms of overall recruitment. We know from NFER research published this year that there is a significant interest in teaching from black and minority ethnic candidates, but that this is not translating into more teachers from these communities standing in front of classes. She talks about their organisation is working

with a number of external partners, including diverse educators, to amplify the conversations around diverse representation in initial teacher training and in recruiting and retaining early career teachers. It's down to us and all ITT, that's the initial teacher training providers,

to ensure the teaching workforce is as diverse as the pupils they are teaching, which will help drive aspiration, achievement and break down barriers. We will see what happens. Evelyn, Evelyn, Ford, I want to thank you for coming in. Your book, Her Story, which is out now,

you're calling it a leadership manifesto. And I do want to say to our listeners, if you've been affected by any of the issues that we've been having in our conversation, there are links to support on the BBC Action Line statement. Now, tributes have been paid to June Spencer, whose death at 105 was announced on Friday.

For 70 years, June played matriarch Peggy Woolley in The Archers from 1951 until her retirement in 2022, just two years ago. The last surviving original cast member, the show's current editor, Jeremy Howe, described working with her as like working with a legend. Even the Queen, a devoted fan of The Archer, said she had been a much-loved part of many people's lives, brilliantly combining the role of reassuring matriarch

and gangster granny. Here is June speaking to Jane Garvey in 2014. I was presented to my great amazement with a Lifetime Achievement Award, which seemed extraordinary to me because I'd just been doing what I've loved to do for the last 70 years. Do you love it, June,

when you're absolutely at the centre of plots as you are now? Well, of course I do. Any actress would. And I've been given some absolutely wonderful scripts lately. Joe Toy's script over the death of Jack. Yes. It's been absolutely a gift to any actress. Do you like Peggy? Yes, I'm fond of the old girl, yes.

She's not me. We're not very alike. Although, until now, she's not had a sense of humour. we're not very alike although until now she's not had a sense of humour but just little flickerings of humour are creeping in now. She can be terribly judgmental can't she? Oh yes well of course

I mean Mrs P was her mother and I see a lot of Mrs P in Peggy now she knows what is right and proper Yes but and sometimes she is the woman vicar was a source of a great deal of upset. Oh yes, she was very prejudiced against lady vicars, yes, so she moved herself up to another church, but she's back now. Yes, that isn't you.

Oh no, I'd rather have a good female vicar than a bad male one. Any day. Last year, you actually had a bit of time off from the programme, didn't you, which you didn't really appreciate. I didn't know. I was out for two months. When you're my age, you think, well, how much more is there going to be? You take the most of me while you're with me. I haven't mentioned your age. You are 94. I mean, you look about 70. There's absolutely no reason for it. Why would you stop? You don't want to.

I don't want to, no, as long as they can put up with me. My problem, you see, is getting to the microphone these days. I have to go with a stick. But they're adjusting and helping me very much, which is wonderful. It's so nice to be still wanted. What a lovely conversation to eavesdrop on. June Spencer sadly died on Friday at the age of 105.

I'm joined now by Pat Gallymore. Many of you will know her as Pat Archer, daughter in law of the character Peggy Woolley. She was a friend of June's and worked with her on The Archers for 50 years. Pat, welcome to Woman's Hour. Maybe you could recount a little bit of what it was like to work with June. Oh goodness. It's just so lovely to hear her voice again. It's been an enormous privilege.

I've knew June for 50 years. I joined the programme in 1974, not knowing how long I would be in, but Pat quite soon got on with Tony and later the same year Pat married Tony and became June's radio daughter-in-law and I have to say she's just the most she was the most wonderful colleague an example of total professionalism she was always immaculate, completely well-prepared, an absolute old-fashioned pro in a way that it's a bit different now. No, it was great. It comes across, I think, even in that short clip, even if people haven't followed the Archers as closely as many do, you get a sense from her there. I mentioned that she retired just a couple of years ago. You were disappointed about a final scene that you were supposed to record together in her home.

Can you explain that to us a little, Pat? Oh, yes. I was very disappointed, but by that time she was recording from home occasionally. She'd been saying that she wanted to leave. She'd felt for a little while that perhaps she wasn't giving her best performance. Nobody agreed with her. She was just wonderful still.

Anyway, she did agree for a crew and David Troughton, who plays Tony Archer, to go down to her house to record a scene. And the following month, I was due to go down and record another episode. However, she listened to what she'd heard, and she said, no, I don't think I'm giving as good as I could be, so I'm going to retire now. And she was so sweet because she rang me to tell me, and I said, well, I'm terribly, obviously I'm going to retire now. And she was so sweet because she rang me to tell me. And I said, well, I'm terribly, obviously I'm disappointed,

but I totally respect your view. You're wrong. You're still giving a wonderful performance, but you must be sure of that yourself. She said, well, I hope you're not going to lose the episode. And I said, no, I don't think I shall. So she was always kind and considerate to her fellow actors, a tremendous team player always. And we shall miss her so much.

It sounds like she was a perfectionist in her own performance. And I mean, that is at the age of 103 that she was retiring. One of the storylines in The Archers involved her husband Jack in the series who was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and that mirrored her own story in real life. Yes it did and she was very happy to contribute. She was approached by the the the production team whether she would be happy to to this that this story should should happen her own husband had not so long ago died from alzheimer's and she was very very pleased to be able to contribute her own experience because she felt that the plight of Alzheimer's sufferers and also their carers had not been addressed enough. And so she was pleased that she could. And she was very much involved in the creation of that story and its outcome.

She was in a care home just in her latter years there. You did visit her there. She must have missed working, I imagine. I think she did. But she knew she'd done the right thing. She still listened to the programme with a keenly critical ear, I have to say. But she knew she'd done the right thing. She was never, as you say, she was a perfectionist. And nothing less than the very best was going to do for June. She didn't want to let herself down or most of all her fans down. And so she just quite, and when June had made up her mind about something, that was it.

There was no changing her mind. And so, yes, I think she was happy in the care home. It was close to her home. She decided that she would go there as a trial when her daughter went on holiday, and I'll stay for a month and see if I like it. And after two weeks, she messaged them to say, no, I like it very much. You'll have to put my house on the market, and I'm staying here. I love this kind of decisive figure that is coming through in your recollections. Was, I don't know, her approach to life,

is that something you put down to her longevity while we're musing? Who knows? It possibly is. And she must have had an extraordinary gene Yes so long but she also

she was very, very disciplined she did exercise classes until quite late on in life she always she did a crossword every day she was a demon scrabble player. I mean, I thought I was quite good, but my goodness, I hadn't met her then. And she read and she kept her mind alert. And so she was physically and mentally pretty tough. Thank you for spending some time with us, Pat Gallimore,

who knew June Spencer so well after working with her for 50 years on The Archer. June Spencer, who died on Friday at the age of 105. Now, 100 years ago tomorrow, the Electrical Association for Women, the EAW, was founded. Do you know what it is or what it was? It became pivotal in emancipating women from the drudgery of everyday manual household tasks through the use of, yes, electricity. Women ended up with more time and opportunity to enter the labour market.

You could think of it, I think, as we do perhaps AI, artificial intelligence today. The opportunities, also the concerns about what it might bring. It was a little like that. The association was set up by Dame Carolyn Haslett and its mission was to educate women about electricity. I want to bring in my guests. We have Adrienne Peters, who is a member of the Electoral Association for Women, and Henrietta Heald, who is a historian and author of the book Magnificent Women and the Revolutionary Machines. You're both so welcome to the programme. Thank you very much. Let me start with you, Henrietta. I've given a brief description there about the association, but what would you say was its goal? What was it trying to achieve? Well, its slogan was emancipation

from drudgery. It's a good slogan. It is, it certainly is, and encourage women to use electricity to lighten their domestic burdens. And was there some of that scepticism about whether this could really offer what it was proposing? Well, I mean, at the time, there was a huge amount of optimism about it. And because, actually, a lot of these women had been in the munitions factories in the First World War and had been well-trained and they were engineers. They actually were doing quite skilled jobs,

building aircraft and ships, not just working on production lines. And when they were told after the war they weren't wanted anymore, this was a great blow. And a group of women set up this organisation, the Electrical Association for Women. With Dame Caroline Haskett, who was she exactly? Well, she was quite exactly? Well, she was quite a modest background

but she'd worked in the factories in the war and she's then been instrumental in setting up the Women's Engineering Society which was the first to actually give an opportunity to those women who were now highly

skilled. And then electricity came in as being a huge opportunity. And what years are we talking about? We're talking about, well, the organisation was set up in 1924. Yeah. And after the war, you know, there was a huge expansion in the electricity supply and several national bodies were formed. It was the sort of beginning what would eventually be the national grid. But there was a gap

because the consumer, especially the women in the home, were not being consulted and this was the point. They weren't being consulted about what they needed and how they would use this new science. Well, we can speak to a woman who was then instrumental in making that link or that jump

happen. So we have the EAW, the Electrical Association for Women, and through that you could study for a certificate in electrical housecraft. Adrian Peters did just that. She is 91. You did it back in 1949. You're so welcome to the

programme. What do you remember of that course? What did you learn? How to wire a plug. That's a good skill. Well, it was because three pin plugs were only just starting to become into general use. People used to do their ironing by connecting the iron to the light socket. And there were still quite a lot of houses that didn't have electricity in them. And they began to build the overspill estates for people from the slums of the cities, and particularly people who'd been bombed out of their houses. And they didn't know how to use the equipment and some of the estates were just

electricity there was no gas they did have a coal fire but not usually provided with the means to cook on it and a part of the job that I did when I first joined the electricity board was being trained to teach people how to use the equipment that they were being given. I think the EAW had a lot to do with the planning after nationalisation of how they were going to teach people. And certainly the divisions into areas that they had left you with a number of areas, often quite spread out. And everybody that went into a new house was supposed to have a visit to show them how to use the equipment. From somebody like you. So, I mean, what a witness to history you were, Adrian. And when you went in, what would you show them? Show them this plug? Show them how to pop it into a socket? We didn't teach them how to wire,

nor did we teach them how to mend their fuses, though that was one of the things that we were taught at the classes that I went to, on the day-release courses that I went to. The attitude of so many of the people, they were so delighted with their new houses and everything new. It was a pleasure to go and show them. And what would you show them, Adrienne?

Usually it was how to use an electric cooker because a lot of them were totally electric and they'd never use them. And electric cookers in those days were a lot simpler. But I'm just wondering what it must have been like to be with those women and when they realised for the first time what this electrical appliance can do. Oh, it was great because, and some of them, they wouldn't do anything until they'd shown you all over the house and all these new things that they'd got. And one of the things we needed to show them was how to clean the cookers. It was quite simple in those days. There was a little screw underneath the hob that you undid,

and you could lift the lid of the hob, and the hot plates all plugged in and were quite easy to replace if something went wrong with them. And I'd stand there and some of the houses, I have to say, were not very clean. Others were absolutely spotless. And I'd sit in the ones that weren't and I'd clutch my coat round me and I'd say, now, if there's another nut under there

that you can unscrew, right, that's it. Now lift the lid up. And some of them, they were so filthy. It was unbelievable. I love that the memories are so sharp. So there was definitely the cooker. Any other appliance that comes to mind, Adrian? Oh yes, we had to very often go and show them how to use washing machines. One little story that might amuse people, two of our representatives had taken a Hoover twin tub washing machine, they were very popular, to this house and as they went in there were two little boys there and one was overheard to say to the other one, we're going to have to sleep in our clothes tonight. Mum's having the laundry done.

Because the pyjamas were gone. They were in the twin tub and that was good. Mostly they had one set of everything. They certainly didn't have two sets to interchange when the laundry was being done. Adrian, just wonderful for you to share those memories

with us. Henry, the centenary is happening. What are you going to do to mark it? We are having a great event tomorrow evening at the IET Savoy Place with Dame Julia King of the Climate Change Committee because actually today

we're talking about energy, women and energy. And it's open to everybody to come so please there's a few tickets left uh but it's part of a whole celebration throughout the year marking this centenary um which of course was very important at the time but is still you know relevant today um uh and and just to go back to Caroline Hazlitt for a minute, I mean, she was an extraordinarily important feminist. There is, maybe you're making one for her, there's some gorilla blue plaques going up.

Will Caroline Hazlitt have one? She already has one. She already has one because she was born in Crawley in Sussex and she has one there. But, yeah, we've got a couple of other women. One, Jeannie Dix, who electrified Winchester Cathedral. And another one, Eleanor Shelley Rolls, who was a sister of Charles Rolls, of Rolls-Royce. And she was a real supporter of the Women's Engineering Society.

Lots to celebrate. Henrietta Held and Adrian Peters thank you both so much something I didn't know anything about but you learn something new on Woman's Hour every day

on tomorrow's programme I'm joined by Laura Bates the feminist campaigner to talk about her series of young adult fantasy books the latest is called Sisters of Fire and Fury

join me to hear that and more at 10am tomorrow here on Radio 4. And I just want to read a message that came in about our guest we had on, the young woman whose parents were imprisoned. It says, what an amazing woman. I wish her every success in her life.

Such resilience, such an inspiration, just so impressive. I'll talk to you again, same time, same place, on Woman's Hour tomorrow. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I wanted to speak to the souls of a million strangers. This cultural life from BBC Radio 4. I actually started crying.

Leading artistic figures reveal the influences that inspired their own creativity. Wow. cry. Leading artistic figures reveal the influences that inspired their own creativity. I'm John Wilson and we've had over a hundred guests on the show so far including Niall Rogers and Zadie Smith. I wanted to read everything without borders. Andrew Scott. If you miss out the sense of the absurd then you're missing such a major part of what makes human beings wonderful. Judi Dench, Paul McCartney, Whoopi Goldberg, Tracey Emin, Lily Allen. I felt like I could be seen and affect people. Listen to This Cultural Life on BBC Sounds. It's like the beating of your heart. That's why I love it so much. the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies.

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The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in. Available now.