Woman's Hour - Forgotten Children, Women in the Green Industry, La Clique

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

This week Woman’s Hour has featured the Forgotten Children series about the impact on children when a parent is sent to prison. So what do the Government intend to do about the problem? Anita Rani speaks to Labour MP Jake Richards and Conservative MP Richard Holden about the possibility of cross party action on this issue. A video has been going viral since yesterday: New Zealand MP Hana-Rawhiti Maipi-Clarke brought the country’s parliament to a halt by performing a haka in protest at a controversial bill seeking to reinterpret the country's founding treaty with Māori people. Maori journalist Jamie Tahana tells Anita what happened, and what it means for the country. Actor Halle Berry attended a fashion show wearing the same dress she memorably wore while accepting the Oscar for best actress in 2002. Thanks to her role in “Monster’s Ball,” Berry was the first black woman in history to take home the accolade, making the gown — which features a burgundy skirt and sheer bodice adorned with floral appliqué — all the more special. Anita explores this with Rosana Lai fashion editor at Glamour UK.COP29 - the UN's climate conference – has been taking place in Baku, Azerbaijan this week. The assembled delegates have been discussing ways to limit and prepare for future climate change with a particular focus on how to finance poorer countries adaptation to climate change. To coincide with this annual event LinkedIn has released some new data about green jobs and skills. Anita speaks to Sue Duke, VP of Global Public Policy for LinkedIn & their spokesperson for global gender parity.The Oliver award-winning cabaret, comedy and circus sensation La Clique was born at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2004 and has since toured the globe. It is celebrating twenty years with a new show just opened at London’s Leicester Square. We meet two of its artists: Katharine Arnold, an aerialist and choreographer and Miranda Menzies, who specialises in the ancient art of hair suspension.Presenter: Anita Rani Producer: Louise Corley Editor: Karen Dalziel

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Natalia Melman-Petrozzella, and from the BBC, this is Extreme Peak Danger. The most beautiful mountain in the world. If you die on the mountain, you stay on the mountain. This is the story of what happened when 11 climbers died on one of the world's deadliest mountains, K2, and of the risks we'll take to feel truly alive. If I tell all the details, you won't believe it anymore. Extreme, peak danger. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Anita Rani and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Good morning, welcome to the programme. The youngest Member of Parliament in New Zealand caused a major disruption this week in defiance of a proposed bill that seeks to remove a set of well-established principles from an agreement signed in 1840 between 500 Maori chiefs and the Crown. It was an extraordinary moment that's currently all over social media. She stood up, she's only 22, she started the hacker while tearing up the bill

and many people, including members of Parliament, joined in. It's a very powerful watch, but we'll play you a bit of the audio. Yeah, it's extraordinary. And we'll be finding out all about her and actually what happened. So keep listening for that. Now, if you've been listening all week, you'll know that every day Thank you. MP for Basildon and Billericay, who might want to find a cross-party solution. That's coming up very soon. We're all off to the circus today, but not as you know it. Le Clique has been described as stunning and mesmerising, exotic and erotic. It's a circus and cabaret and has breathtaking, death-defying acts. Well, two of those breathtaking performers will be giving us a glimpse into their worlds. Aerialist Catherine Arnold and Miranda Menzies,

whose speciality is the act of hair suspension. I know, ouch, she'll be talking to us and telling us all about that. You may have seen the pictures of Halle Berry looking incredible at 58 in the same Elie Saab dress she wore when she won her Oscar 22 years ago. Well, do you have an outfit in the cupboards that you've promised or you live in hope of possibly wearing another day soon? Or that item of clothing you'll keep forever because of what it means to you? We'd like to hear about those items of clothing this morning and the stories related to them. Please get in touch in the usual way. The text number is 84844. I've kept the outfit i wore to my first ever rts awards back

in 2005 yes i was nominated and no i didn't win but i'm keeping the dress and i've actually worn it a few times since tony robinson if you must know i am over it he a deserved winner um text number once again 84844 you can also email me by going to our website or the WhatsApp number 03700 100 444. And if you'd like to follow us on social media, it's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, this week on Woman's Hour, we've heard a series of features from reporter Jo Morris about the impact on children when a parent goes to prison. For those who didn't catch them on Monday, Kerry described being 17 and homeless when both of her parents goes to prison. For those who didn't catch them, on Monday, Kerry described being 17 and homeless when both of her parents went to prison. We also heard from Nan, who took her five grandchildren

into her two-bedroom house when her daughter was sentenced to prison, and from Emily, whose ex-husband was jailed for crimes against her, but who struggled to access support for her children. Many of you contacted Woman's Hour to express your shock and concern at the lack of provision and clarity for families in this situation. Thank you to those of you who

did get in touch. We always want to hear your thoughts. If you did miss any of those programmes, you can always listen back on BBC Sounds. Well, the Ministry of Justice estimates that in England and Wales, there are nearly 200,000 children with a parent in prison, but it's an estimate because there is no centralised register identifying children affected in this way. On Tuesday's programme, Sarah Burrows, founder of charity Children Heard and Seen and academic Lucy Baldwin, discussed who was responsible for the provision of children and Nuala asked Sarah which minister or department should be responsible. I think it's the Department of Education.

I don't think it sits under the Ministry of Justice. It isn't about children having family ties and reducing the offending of the person in prison. This is about children and children themselves. Children have to be the heart of it all. And it is a safeguarding risk why this continues. Department of Education says, Sarah, Lucy, what say you? I agree that the Department of Education need to be involved,

but I think it's broader than that. I actually think that it needs to be a cross-party commitment and a multi-agency response with ministers from social care, from education and from just, you know, a community background to recognise some of the challenges that children face. So how realistic is a cross-party, cross-departmental solution to this problem? Well, there is a glimmer of hope. Today, I'm joined by two MPs from across the political divide.

Jake Richards is Labour MP for Rother Valley and Richard Holden is Conservative MP for Basildon and Billericay and both join me now. Good morning. Welcome to the programme. I'm going to start with the same question to both of you. Why does this issue matter to you? And who introduced me to Sarah, who you had on your programme this week. And it just struck me as one of those things which is clearly falling, as the introduction to this programme said, between a couple of stools, really. It's falling a little bit between the MOJ, who are always more prisoner and rehabilitation focused, falling between the DfE, who would obviously be on the education side. And then a lot of the issues, actually, particularly around housing, I think we heard that from Kerry on Tuesday this week, actually MHCLG local government focused and what it really needs is just I think a cross party, we can I'm hoping to keep working with Jake

on this and just force the government into having somebody within government to take overall responsibility for this and actually I think this is something which on all sides of the political divide we want to see happen is that those children identified and given the support that they need because I think so much of the from the questions that I asked in parliament Jake's asked in

parliament it's very MOJ focus which is around the prisoner and actually this is all about the children of those prisoners and the assistance that they require so it's a it's a different place to, I think, where governments have traditionally been in this space. And same question to you, Jake. Why does this issue matter? Well, before I was elected as the Member of Parliament, I was a barrister. And actually, during the pandemic, I took on a case pro bono for children of prisoners. And essentially, there had been no guidance from the government or

the prison service as to how children were going to see their parents during the pandemic either in person with obviously protective measures or via online mechanisms and i tried to help this group of children change that and it goes to the point that richard just set out that there is the problem is that these children slip through the net of whitehall there isn't one minister or one department that have these children on their agenda and i was just struck during that experience by how these children are forgotten um and we need to change that so i'm really pleased to be working with richard and indeed others on this and i should stress the Labour manifesto before the election made a commitment to take action on this and you know I'm hoping and expect the government to do that in due course and I'm really pleased that

me and Richard can work together on a cross-party basis to gently put pressure on them. Well there was a discussion in Parliament around prisons both of you brought this to the table and I'm going to play a clip of what each of you had to say but we'll start with you richard first because you you asked a question uh last week let's hear it a recent parliamentary answers to my wpqs talk to the positive impact uh that um relations with families can have on prisoner resettlement however in a number of cases particularly where there's been sexually social violence involved in these cases the prison has no contact with the family and their release is a hugely traumatic moment for those families and children.

This is why I welcomed Labour's manifesto pledge to introduce a national identification system for children of prisoners as a vitally important measure. What is the government doing to meet this pledge and break the offending cycle across generations? So how do you, Richard, imagine that a national identification system might work? Well I think we saw with Operation Paramount which is what Sarah's charity has been involved

in has actually said to re-identify the children within those three counties that it covers I think we do need to see that across the board it just seems totally sensible to me that actually in every single area children should be identified

so that actually they can get the support that they need. And what really struck me from speaking to Sarah and then listening to your programme, speaking to some of those who've been involved, is the fact that when you've got these children often, maybe a single-parent household, suddenly a parent goes into prison. They could be a young teenager.

Obviously, you've got those issues and concerns around that relationship with the state as it is, which obviously makes people very scared about getting in touch. And they're just not getting the support that they need. And I think there's two angles to it. One is you want to protect and ensure those children can get the support that they need. And I think there's a broader thing, which is actually too many children of prisoners end up to go on to offend themselves. And you want

to break that cycle in a sort of for a broader, for a broader reason for society. How do you identify those children, though? Which agencies should be involved? Whose job should it be? Well, that's, that's, that's the issue we're facing at the moment is that there's, you've got a combination of the Home Office, the Ministry of Justice, MHCLG, DfE, and this is why that identification thing needs to happen. Now, I'm not going to write the government's programme for it. I support the new Labour government's manifesto commitment on it. Obviously, it's going to be a multi-agency approach, because it's not just about identifying them, it's also then about giving them the support afterwards. So it can't just be one or the other. So it's going to be, it is going to be tricky. But it's quite clear that charities

like Sarah's have managed to do this. And we just need to find the right vehicles to do it. And I think, you know, just keep nudging the government in the right direction. Jake, whose responsibility should it be? Which agencies? Who actually physically goes and meets the children and identifies them? Well, again, like Richard, I don't want to write the government's policy for them. But saying that, it appears to me that every prisoner who is given a custodial sentence, there is a probation report, an investigation or inquiry, I guess, is done into their personal circumstances. It is not beyond anyone to simply notify the school that the children is attending. We don't want to put loads more work on teachers

or schools who already are bombarded with work. But it appears to me that that might be the most obvious mechanism. But again, I'm very open to ideas on this, and I hope the government are looking into it and consulting widely on it. Well, Jake, you also tried to ask a further question to Richard Holdens in Parliament last week. Let's have a listen.

Jake Richards. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I join the question and calls for my right-of-mind friend for Basildon and Billericay, looking at this issue of children of offenders in prison. I met with the children's minister just last week and I know it's very much on her radar, but this is a really urgent issue

because this week I've been told about one child who was living on their own for months at end because the authority simply didn't know that their parent was in prison. You were cut off just after that by the speaker, but how did you hear about this child living on their own and what action has been taken about that well again again you heard from sarah earlier this week at children seen and heard have been in touch with me that that's actually the charity that i took the case on that i was referring to earlier when

i was a barrister before being elected and they informed me about this particular case and i'm afraid i don't think it's just a one-off and it just struck me as completely and utterly remarkable that we have a situation where a parent is sent to prison we are by the way focusing a lot of attention taxpayers money agencies on that prisoner rightly or wrongly we can talk about that another time but yet the child is completely forgotten and it just struck me as completely remarkable and I was really keen to raise that in the house and yeah the speaker didn't let me quite finish for various procedural reasons but I was pleased to do that. I must also stress that you know the government ministers that I have spoken to about this issue both informally and

formally are seized of it, are aware of it and I hope that they will take action. This does take time because as we briefly touched upon it involves a multi-agency approach. We don't want to put more burdens on schools. So it has to be done carefully. And I accept that this will take some time. But I really hope that action will be taken sooner rather than later. Yeah, the speaker might not have let you finish, but we wanted to hear the rest of it. So we're glad we've given you the platform. I'm very grateful. Once these children have been identified what kind of services would you like to see them receive?

I'll come to you first Rich. So well I think Jake just in when he's responding there I think he's made an important point we don't put extra burdens on schools. I actually think this could relieve a burden on the education system. If you've got children, and there's 200,000 of them across the country with a parent. Estimate. Exactly, as we don't know, an estimate of 200,000. These children, some of them, obviously some of them people will know because of media reports, et cetera, about people being in prison. But if they're not known, and you're going to have children with all sorts of complex needs, potentially, not properly being identified, actually potentially costing the system more and actually underperforming, etc.

And with all the knock-on consequences that can have. So I think this could actually be something which overall actually basically relieves a burden in a long-term context on the state. If you can get that support in early, it's always said that prevention is better than the cure i think particularly with this if you can get that support where it's needed and quickly i think you could actually see this would be a real benefit not just to not just the individuals involved but to society more broadly um yeah look i think the the the overall we'd like to see you know a bit a shift in see a shift in a more positive direction to give more support here. But I think the crucial thing is until we know who's involved and how many children are involved and where they're involved, you can't really design a structure around it until you know those things,

which is why the first task is to identify these children. And then once they're identified Jake what kind of services would you like to see them receive? Well similar to what Richard said but I think it's also worth stressing that for some children they might not need any help and I think it's really important that we don't sort of stigmatize children and you know that's not what we want to do at all for some children although of course it will be challenging they may very well not require any support or service but for others we know that they will need that and the fact that we simply don't know who they are is to me mind-boggling and so that needs to change and then we can make an assessment whether that's by

the education system or social services as to what support children need and that can be a wide range of options from really you know housing needs whether they need a primary carer in the example of the anecdote that or that I said in that that I told the house about in the clip that you just played but you know again we need to know who these children are and then we can work out how we can help them. Well one of the problems we've encountered when looking into who takes responsibility for the children infected by this is frankly where to start because of the criticism of social services levelled by Kerry, Nan and Emily in their interviews. We contacted the Department for Health and Social Care, who told us that it doesn't come under their remit. The Ministry of Justice referred us to their newly announced Women's Justice Board, which we've talked about on Women's Hour before, which they don't seem to address the issue.

The Department of Education does seem to be the department with a remit for protecting these vulnerable children, but they refuse to put up a minister or spokesperson on the issue. We have, however, got a statement. So I'm going to read that out and get your um reaction to it growing up with a parent in prison can have a devastating impact on a child's life opportunities we've taken measures to better identify and support these children we've

published the first official statistics of the number of children with a parent in prison to better understand the scale of this challenge we're also breaking down barriers to opportunity taking action to prevent more women and mothers from getting caught up in crime in the first place. What do you make of that statement, Richard? I mean, I don't want to be overly critical of the government on this because it's something that no government's addressed over a very, very long period of time. But it's clearly there's a lot more work to do on this because, as you said, they have published a sort of general estimate. But this is about identifying individuals because it's not really about a national statistic about, well, we might have this many people who are affected. It's actually about addressing the individual needs of children who are affected on a literally on a school by school basis.

So I think they I think it's good. It's good to see that at DfEs sort of seems to be taking a bit of a lead on this. But it's quite clear that there's still a long way to go to really address this issue. But I genuinely do think that this is something that we can do cross-party. I think it's something that Jake and I and others will continue to push on, because it's something that I think we all want to see positive action on because the outcomes on it for both the individuals concerned and for society are so beneficial. Yeah, I'll just pick up on something that you said there, Richard.

This issue of what's happened to children with their parents in prison is as old as prisons. So why hasn't it been addressed properly yet? Well, it's a very good question. Probably because it falls between, as you're discovering, it falls between multiple different departments. And when the MOJ and the answer to the question I put in Parliament is very prisoner focused. And actually, this is all about the children who themselves have obviously not done anything wrong. They're very much the innocent party in all of this. And so to try and, if they've not done anything,

it's almost like the government, like the system doesn't seem to be able to respond to that. So I think it's perhaps something slightly different in the response that we're looking for. But it is going to have, it is going to require that multi-agency approach. Jake, Labour in power now. Why haven't the government put up anyone to talk to us about this

why is it left to you to champion it rather than a minister? Well look I'm a Labour MP but I'm not a part of the government so I'll let them speak for themselves on that look I thought that statement was encouraging but there's clearly a lot more to do and the manifesto commitment was clear that this was about identifying these children

and I don't think an estimate is sufficient so you know there's still progress to be done. But I'm pleased Richard is, and I know he is, taking this issue on on a cross-party basis. This is not about kind of whacking the government. This will take time. It is more complex than it might seem.

I think we've already touched upon some of the issues about how this will be done and it needs to be fought through properly. So I'm confident the government will do this. And we just, me and Richard and others and just need to keep pushing them what's the likelihood of this cross-party commitment happening well look i think you know that this is an issue that is not really one which is about party politics as rich Richard said, these are innocent victims, essentially, of criminal activity. And so when we talk about victims of crime,

we obviously focus on the direct victim, but there are also secondary victims, such as the children of the prisoner who ends up in jail. And I think that this isn't really about party politics, and I'm really pleased to be working with Richard on this. Thank you. Richard? Yeah, no, I agree. I don't think it is. I think it's something that we've got to see addressed because it also,

now this is going to be dealt with by local authorities who obviously, right across the country, all different political parties are going to be there as well. So I think this is something that I genuinely think it should be non-party. But I think working on both sides of the house, we can just give the government a nudge in the right direction on this issue. It's something that they've set out they want to do something about, and it's just us keeping up the pressure on them

to make sure that it actually happens, so it doesn't get sidelined by other... Because there are always events across in politics, and it's actually some of those long-term changes that sometimes governments can lose sight of. We just need to keep their focus on this as well. I know people have to be where they have to be because everyone's busy.

But Jake, if you'd been in the studio with Richard, we could have started the conversation in the Woman's Hour green room. Oh, right. Well, I'm sorry I can't be there. I'm in my constituency. No, no. Next one.

Thank you both. We are obviously going to be following this issue very closely. But thanks to both of you, MPs Richard Holden and Jake Richards. And you can listen back to our Forgotten Children series on BBC Sounds. Thank you. 84844 is the number to text.

Lots of you getting in touch about the item of clothing that you're going to keep forever. Natalie in Clevedon. Hi Anita, I have a pair of, oh, I like this, holographic hot pants that I used to wear

raving in the 90s. They still fit. I'm aiming to wear them for my 50th in a few years, although probably not at a rave. You never know. Now, you may have seen this extraordinary moment from the New Zealand Parliament yesterday. 11 votes in favour. New Zealand first. Eight votes in favour. It's a party Maori. There are six votes against. No, don't do it. No, don't do it.

Powerful, isn't it? That was the moment that MP Hannah Rafferty Maipi-Clark ripped up a controversial new bill and started a hacker, leading to her temporary suspension and suspension of Parliament itself. Here to tell us about the background to that moment is Maori journalist Jamie Tahana. Jamie, welcome to Woman's Hour. Can you start by telling us what happened?

Well, so for the past year or so, so New Zealand had its election last year, elected the right-wing coalition led by the National Prime Minister, Christopher Luxon. And part of his coalition is the Minority Act Party, Libertarian Party, and they campaigned on something called the Treaty Principles Bill.

So New Zealand has the Treaty of Waitangi, which signed with New Zealand's then colonial power, the British Crown in 1840, and about 500 or so Māori chiefs. Now this was to set the parameters of governance in New Zealand. There is an English version and a Māori version that's been contested ever since. And the ACT Party want to redefine what had become known as the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi. So over the past, you know, the treaty was ignored for the first century or so. We had the land wars, you know, you had over marginalisation as is so often common among colonial states. And in the past 50 years or so, there have been a series of legal challenges, court rulings, and treaty settlements with various tribes, iwi,

which have led to what's become known as the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi, loosely determined, defined as protection, partnership, and participation, obligations on the Crown ACT want to redefine these principles to remove the Maori aspects of it so that the principles apply to all New Zealanders, of course have got Maori outrage saying they are seeking to redetermine or delete the treaty and New Zealand's

constitutional elements and of course that has led to a year of large-scale protests and yesterday that bill was finally introduced to Parliament. And what happened when the bill was brought into Parliament? So each party spoke, David Seymour on introducing the bill said it was an important day and that Parliament, similar to the UK, New Zealand has parliamentary sovereignty, will finally be determining the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi rather than the courts or Crown. It has led to several co-governance

arrangements with Māori tribes and all that. And then you had the opposition parties and then it got around to everyone putting their votes in and then finally Te Pate Māori put their six votes against and Hana Rawhiti Maipi Clark in saying six votes against tore up the bill and started the haka kamate. You know, it's funny, just you saying that has made my unwaxed arm hairs stand up because I've watched that clip like lots of people over and over. I'm fascinated. Who is, she's only 22, hair stand up because I've watched that clip like lots of people over and over I'm fascinated who is

um she's only 22 Hannah Rafferty Maipi Clark the MP who started the hacker um tell us a bit about her who is she 22 yeah so um and when she was elected last year for the Māori party Te Pāti Māori. She was 21 and she unseated in her Waikato Māori electorate a veteran politician, the former Foreign Affairs Minister in Jacinda Ardern's Labour government. She was a bit of a surprise victory and since then she's built an astounding social media presence and before that she was at university. She had a popular social media presence and before that, you know, she was at university, she had a popular social media following for a gardening series she did following the Māori

Lunar Calendar and now she's an MP, but she is of an activist background, you know, her grandfather was one of the, what are known in New Zealand as the Landmarchers of the 1970s, a group called Ngā Tamatoa, who fought for Te Reo Māori, the Māori language, to be made an official language. They were popular on the Māori land protests of the 70s and 80s. So she does have that lineage, and one of her ancestors from way back was one of the first Māori of part of the New Zealand parliament of

the 1850s so she she is she does have a political pedigree even if she is so very young yes yes it's in her blood um is it unusual for a woman to lead the haka no so you know all through Marduk a various region by region but women have long had an association with haka, and it is not uncommon for them to lead. They may differ from them. I think there is a perception that haka is just a male thing, that it's a war dance, but it's also a celebration. It's also used at funerals.

You know, when you graduate university, your family will come and do your tribe's haka kind of thing. So there is that. And in this case, it's very much a challenge. And often with haka, you see men and women both doing the haka, and they may have different roles, but you often have, you know, the men will be there with the taiaha weapon and stuff, and women will be doing the call and leading it.

So it's not unusual for women to lead the haka. I think there is that perception that it's an L thing from the New Zealand rugby team, the All Blacks. Yeah, exactly. That's the sort of first experience of most of us. But why do you think this clip has gone around the world and gone viral? Why do you think people have responded to it?

It's powerful, isn't it? Incredibly, yeah. Also, it's just perfect. Yeah. And you have Hanara Whiti Maipi Clark there. And then you have the rest of her party who stood up and went onto the floor of Parliament away from the desk and said, and then you had other opposition parties, Labour, the Greens,

also stand up and join in that haka, and then you had the public gallery go in. I mean, the video clip went viral around the world, but it has stirred a bit of debate in the New Zealand Parliament. You know, immediately after that, the Speaker of the House suspended the House, called it, you know, it was very unparliamentary. It breached standing orders. Hana Rawhiti, Michael Clark was suspended for a day

and had a pay docked. And now you're having a debate of where Māori protocols, tikanga Māori and the rules of Parliament, you know, do they agree? This is a very normal way to challenge something you disagree with in Māoridom. If you go to a Māori meeting house or a marae, that is something that would happen,

but it's been very unparliamentary, you know, standing in front of David Seymour, who brought the bill to voice your discontent in that way. It's a very powerful act of resistance, isn't it? Without having to actually say anything, everything was said in that moment. Exactly. Yeah.

And for haka, they, kamate, kamate, it's a famous one. But, you know, the tribe whose haka that is have spoken out in support. Ngati Toa said it was a very appropriate use of their haka and their explanation of the lyrics. You know, this bill puts Māori self-determination at risk, which is kamate, kamate,

and Māori are reclaiming that ka ora, ka ora. So, you know, it was a very calculated choice of what was done there. Brilliant. Jamie, thank you so much for explaining all that to us. Jamie Te Hanna. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody.

Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story. Settle in.

Available now. 84844 is the moment to text. Maybe you have also been brave enough to stand up and defiantly stand up for something you believe in that you want to share with us. Get in touch in the usual way, 84844. Lots of you telling me about the items of clothing that you're going to keep forever. I can still get into my beautiful bright green dungarees made by Oshkosh, which I bought in Oxford Indoor Market in 1978 at the age of 18. Most expensive piece of clothing I'd ever bought and I was so proud of them.

Admittedly, I have to leave one of the side buttons open. Doesn't matter, no one will know. At the waist, I wouldn't step outside in them. Oh, go on, just go for it. Sally says, the item of clothing I will never part with is my father's wool tartan dressing gown. It takes me back to my childhood and the image of him frying his breakfast in the early morning before leaving for work. No one else in the house would be awake and I treasure those memories of the two of us together. Thank you for sharing that lovely memory with us Sally. Keep getting in touch 84844. The reason I ask about this is because

actor Halle Berry and that iconic dress. This week she attended a fashion show wearing the same dress she memorably wore while accepting the Oscar for Best Actress in 2002. Thanks to her role in Monster's Ball, Berry was the first black woman in history to take home the accolade, making the gown, an Elie Saab gown, which features a burgundy skirt and sheer bodice adorned with floral applique, all the more special. That was 22 years ago and now at 58 looking incredible she chose to wear the gown designed again especially for her but her fashion choice got us thinking about that dress that outfit get in touch if it reminded you of a dress that you've got in the cupboard

something that you've worn for a significant reason and you're never going to part with it we would like to hear about that. Get in touch. Well, to explore this further, I'm joined by Rosanna Lai, fashion editor at Glamour UK. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for having me. Rosie, Rosie, lovely. So what's your reaction to seeing Halle Berry wearing that dress? I thought she looked absolutely incredible.

And I thought that it was also a really clever way to close out the show that was Elie Saab's 1001st show. And just 18 in Beirut in Lebanon. And, you know, he was a favorite amongst a lot of royalty and celebrities. But really, Hollywood stars started to turn to him after that fashion moment. So what better way to close out this anniversary show than to have Halle walk in the same dress? Ah, so that was the big moment for his career. Exactly. And it seemed like a really emotional moment for Halle walk in the same dress. Ah so that was the big moment for for his career and so very quickly and it seemed like a really emotional moment for Halle Berry understandably given what it represents. Absolutely and I think this could be said for anybody who re-wears a dress you know from a really big moment in their life so since it wasn't just that she won the oscars that year was that she made history as the first black woman to win for the role and um you know she

it was placed her in the pantheon of silver screen greats but she made history yeah um and so i think she probably relived that moment as she walked down the runway that night yeah i'm trying to understand why it was such an it's why it's so impactful. A, it's that it's a woman much older, wearing the same dress. And I suppose there's something in all of us that we can sort of identify with, you know, wearing something that meant so much in that moment. Also, she looks incredible. It felt like Halle Berry coming back, you know, not that she's ever gone away, obviously, but she sort of has, but not really. But it was it's her moment, saying, Hello, it's Hallie, I'm here.

Absolutely. You know, I I do think that in that moment, she probably thought about everything that has passed since then and how far she's gone. And maybe some things that, you know, didn't go so well or, or you know just and also reliving a really happy moment and I think right now we need a lot of joy and you know it's it's it's just something that I think if I were her I would also be be thinking about and so I can understandably I can see why she was very emotional that night why why do you think Rosie that we do this? Why is it that we have something in the wardrobe that we will cherish? And also the other side hope that we might fit back into one day? I think I personally keep clothing that I don't necessarily think I will re-wear but I think I just could never part with because of the memories that they hold and if I do fit in them one day

that would be amazing and but that's not a pressure that I would put on myself it's just something that I want to see and remember everything that's associated with it so. What have you kept what's in your what's in your wardrobe what have you squirreled away? Well I actually at the same time I do think that re-wearing something can also alter its maybe significance, maybe it will add to it. And this is why maybe some people wouldn't want to re-wear it. And if you do re-wear it, it would be for a certain reason. I have a funny story, which is recently for Halloween, I actually wore a dress that I had bought ages ago when I thought I was going to marry my ex-boyfriend. And I hadn't. Oh, sorry. I'm preempting the. I shouldn't laugh. Go on. Sorry.

No, I mean, it is a funny story. I am. I kept it in my wardrobe because I just couldn't part with it. And I just didn't. But I didn't know what to do with it because, you know, I'm happily married now. And and so I went as Frankenstein's bride and I wore the dress. And since then, actually, I feel like there's less of that previous memory associated with it. And I feel like I'd be more comfortable wearing it from here on out. So I do think that re-wearing a dress can really alter its significance for better or for worse. I like that story a lot. The dress that you never got to wear down the aisle,

but it doesn't matter because you're happily married. But it was probably a beautiful dress. Did you look amazing? Did it feel great to wear it? You know, I think also my taste has changed and it's maybe not something I would have worn for my wedding, you know, last year. But this is why it was just a fun memory now

that I get to associate with it do you think it's something men do as well or is it just why is it that women do it I know lots of women do it but I'm not sure whether men do it if you're listening and you have done it as a man get in touch what do you think Rosie well I mean my husband has things that he's worn since he was you know 16 and a way, it's just, I don't think they think too much about whether they've worn it 10 times, 100 times, whether they've worn it once. If it fits now, they will just put it on. Obviously, I'm making a generalization, but this is at least how I've seen my husband dress and so um no I just feel like for us it's maybe also yes like you said a matter of like fitting back into clothing I'm not gonna lie you know when I did my closet swap this season I definitely put on those pair of jeans that just just to know you know and um I don't

know why we do this to ourselves but um I think with things that are, that have meaning though, you know, I, I maybe wouldn't actually want to put it back on again and for better or for worse. Rosie, it's been lovely speaking to you. Thank you so much and keep your examples coming in. We are loving them. I still have my beautiful handmade wedding dress 42 years ago when I was a size eight to 10, no chance of ever fitting me again, but maybe my granddaughter. See, that's lovely. Another one here. I still have my first ball gown that my aunt made me,

who was a dressmaker at the time. And recently my goddaughter wore it to an 18th, which was really magical. I hope to wear it again one day. It may need a bit of mending and a couple of adjustments for me to get into it, but it has such strong memories. I can never let it go. And never must you let it go yeah just alter it wear it again another one here my dad bought me a dress for my sister's wedding in 1987

and i wore it to my dad's funeral in 2022 i always think of him when i see it in my wardrobe these are really lovely memories um keep them coming in uh now uh no doubt you will be aware that COP29 the UN's climate conference has been taking place in Baku Azerbaijan this week the assembled delegates have been discussing ways to limit and prepare for future climate change with a particular focus on how to finance poorer countries adapting to climate change well on Monday it's women's hour we looked at a new women's leadership coalition that was formally launched at the conference. And on Wednesday, we spoke to Adele Lusambili, co-author of a recent report looking at how climate extremes

are harming maternal wellbeing. But to coincide with this annual event, LinkedIn have released some new data about green jobs and skills. They say women and young people in particular are being shut out of the green workforce and the number of women working in this area drops off the more senior they are in the industry. To discuss these findings, Sue Duke, Vice President of Global Public Policy for LinkedIn and Spokesperson for Global Gender Parity, spoke to me earlier from Dublin. I asked, in terms of women and young people,

what the headlines of their report were for her. The headline of this report is it's a full call to action for us to double the amount of workers with green skills that we will need by 2050. That is the deadline crucial year for when we need to meet our net zero targets. And two of the demographics that we need to really zoom in on and focus in on if we are going to bridge this green skills gap that's out there, that's acute and that's growing all the time is young workers and women. They will hold fully 30% of all jobs by 2030. But today, only one in 20 of Gen Z has a green skill. We need to get that number way up and fast so that young workers who are coming in now and will be growing their careers over the coming decades have the green skills we need to bridge this gap.

The second key demographic is women. Today on our platform for every two men considered green talent, we have only one woman. And that really matters for a couple of reasons. One, we cannot leave half of the world's population behind as we make this transition. Two, it's often women who are the most heavily impacted by the ravages of climate change. And three, we need to make sure that women are in a spot where they can take advantage of the jobs of tomorrow, those opportunities that are opening up in this space. Sue, it's a basic question, but very important question.

What do we mean by the green workforce and green skills? Green skills are skills that put economic activities on a more sustainable footing. So typically, these are skills that are either taking pollution out of the environment or conserving natural resources. Think of a skill like sustainable procurement. Sustainable procurement was the single fastest growing green skill across the world this year. Sustainable procurement is a skill that allows workers who are delivering

goods and services to ensure that they are building sustainability into the supply chain journey from the get go, from when they source the goods right through to when they put them out into the market. And the reason sustainable procurement is the fastest growing skill this year is because, yes, of course, workers across a whole range of green jobs, per se, are using that skill and applying that skill. But we also see a huge amount of workers in more traditional roles, roles we wouldn't typically think of as green jobs, using and applying that skill. They're workers like shop assistants, like supply chain managers, like construction workers. They're acquiring this

skill, they're applying this skill so that they can do those traditional jobs in traditional sectors in a more sustainable way. And that's going to be absolutely critical to powering this transition. So why are there such imbalances? What's holding women back? There's a couple of key drivers to that underrepresentation that we see that that's so stark right now when we look at the labour market and the stock of green skills that we have out there. The first is we see a very strong legacy underrepresentation of women in those green renewable energy sectors. Typically, historically, women have been underrepresented in the energy sector, and we continue to see that come through into the green energy sector. There we have a much lower representation of women across the board in those sectors than in other sectors across the economy. And the second is, again, a legacy dynamic where often the transition that workers are making to get into

these green jobs is from a STEM background and that makes a lot of sense. Often these roles are based on science, technology, math, exactly science, technology, engineering, maths, all very important roles to play in these green jobs and as as we know, as has been well documented, women historically have been underrepresented in those roles. That immediately puts a barrier in front of women to accessing these new and future roles. And so, again, ensuring that we're targeting our interventions, helping women to make that transition into those green energy roles, making sure that we're equipping women with these STEM skills, with these STEM qualifications and helping them make that

transition into these green roles. That's going to be critical to driving up that number and bridging that gap that we see in green skills right now. Because as you mentioned at the beginning, it's not just about women, it's about young workers as well. So your report also looked at Gen Z, make up a third of the workforce by 2030 with 61% who want to work in a green job in the next five years. But they're love to play my part in this. I can see the economic opportunity. I want to help the planet, but I just do not know where to start. I don't know what a green role is. I don't know where to get green skills. I don't even know where to start. And so what we need to do is help those young workers in two critical ways. One, we need to raise awareness and two, we need to get skilling in front of them. Helping workers understand that their ability

to activate their role in the green economy is out there. There are pathways through, there are ways in and that's going to be very good for both the planet and their future employability. We've got to get awareness

up in this space. And the second crucial thing we have got to do is target skilling programs at these workers so that they can start getting a foothold into this area. And here's the really good news. Yeah. Often we are not talking about a big transition in your career. We're not talking about workers going to do or going back to do a four year degree, a five year master's, a six year PhD program. Often we're talking about a handful of skills here. I'll give you a good example. Solar, so to speak, red, red hot area right now. It's one of the fastest, most in demanddemand skills out there. To get from being a general installer to a solar panel installer, you're talking four or five skills added to your existing skills around photovoltaics, around energy efficiency, telling workers that, letting workers

know that, and then targeting those specific set of skills at them that's what's going to get these workers into this space doing the work that they want to do making the contribution to the green economy yeah we know they want to make making it accessible um that's exactly right so let's let's go back to women and particularly um women in more senior roles in the industry are there opportunities for those that want to make more senior roles? Well, we know that there aren't that many. I mean, exec level is just one in four positions across all industries, but only one in five in the green industry. Why is it worse? Today, we are in a very stark position where we do not have a single industry and we do not have

a single country where we've reached parity in leadership. So firstly, it's an extension of that broader dynamic that we see across the economy. Secondly, it is a legacy issue going back to the underrepresentation of women in that sector generally. So when we look at entry level, there is a significant underrepresentation of women in those green energy levels, green energy industries, and that under-representation grows and compounds the more senior you go. Again, we need to look at the full range of these sectors from entry level right through to executive level. So final question then, Sue, what have you heard from COP29 so far this week that's either made you concerned or hopefully hopeful? One of the really encouraging signals coming out of COP29 this year out in Azerbaijan is there is a dedicated day to human capital. So one single

day across the two weeks is fully focused on people, on skills and on jobs. And that's exactly what needs to happen. We have to put workers and skills right at the heart of climate planning and right at the heart of the new plans that all countries are going to hand into the UN over the coming months. We know very starkly from LinkedIn's Global Green Skills report that without significant investment in retraining and reskilling workers in green skills, we are simply not going to have the workforce we need to get us to those 2030 targets and then that all important crucial 2050 target for net zero. So putting people, putting jobs, putting skills at the heart of this COP and at the heart of climate action is what is encouraging me and encouraging us that we are going to get

there. We are going to create these opportunities for workers and we are going to do right by the planet as well. Sue Duke, Vice President of Global Public Policy for LinkedIn and spokesperson for Global Gender Parity, talking about their new report. Now, the Olivier award-winning cabaret comedy and circus sensation Le Clique was born at the Edinburgh Fringe in 2004 and has since toured the globe. It's celebrating 20 years with a new show that's just opened at London's Leicester Square. The critics have described it as amazing, hilarious, exotic, erotic, stunning, mesmerising and breath-stoppingly skilled. To find out more about those skills, I'm joined now by two of its artists,

Catherine Arnold, an aerialist and choreographer, and Miranda Menzies, an aerial contortionist who specialises in the ancient art of hair suspension. Welcome both of you. Hair suspension. Yes. Miranda, tell us more. It's a really old circus art form kind of like traced

back to um china and in not the olden days but in the past touring circuses as we kind of knew them were all families and each family had a special knot um where you could safely knot your hair and hang from it so it began with um people juggling and just hanging kind of the same way you have maybe like sadhus in India doing like kind of like pain threshold work so many questions to ask but how do you get into that how'd I get I started doing aerial I did aerial hoop I was obsessed went to Berlin saw a girl doing it just like understood how it worked and wanted to do it but it took me two years to find someone to um show me I read that you just knew I'm fascinated by this you knew in your body that you had to do it yeah I just like I watched it and I was like oh I understand how that feels

like I I know that I can do that she's got very thick head have you got very thick hair do you need thick hair I'm looking at your hairline. Yep, full head of hair. Very long hair. Very long, very beautiful hair. Catherine, tell me about what you do. You're an aerialist. I'm also an aerialist.

You are magnificent. I've watched clips of both of you last night and tell us what you do with the ring. Thank you. So the ring is sort of one of the pieces of equipment that we use. In general, when you do aerial, I think it's quite common that you kind of train your body to be able to do various different things. So I'm also doing aerial silks in this show.

And there are lots of other kind of disciplines that are also just fun things to hang off. But basically, we just suspend ourselves from various different objects. How did you get involved? How did you join? Did you join the circus? Yeah, I mean, actually, it was never Miranda and I are actually quite similar, I think, in our backgrounds in that we did a lot of we did ballet when we were children. We did a lot of theatre. We both went to theatre school rather than circus school and didn't necessarily intend

to end up in the circus. And then we and then we both sort of stumbled across it and ended up falling into it. So I was actually doing a physical theatre piece while I was at university and they had a company come in and do some circus work with us. And I, a bit like you, I think, just got really obsessed with it straight away. I was like, I just love this. I fell in love with it. I wanted to do more of it.

So I took myself off to do classes independently outside of my university schedule. And then that was that. What does it say about you that you want to do it? Because it's so incredible to watch and terrifying. And I think that's part of the thrill of it. But what was it? And what skills do you need to be able to do it? Do you need to be fearless, unafraid of heights, incredibly fit?

I think one of the things for me that I really loved instantly about it was that it made me feel strong so I remember really clearly having this moment and it was after I've been doing it for about four or five months and I was walking from the tube station back to my flat and I thought I feel like if somebody came up to me like I just felt really strong and I felt like I could run fast or I felt like I could shimmy up a wall or climb, you know. And I think that is a really sort of empowering thing. And like confidence, like really like creating your own work and exploring what your body can do kind of gives you this like nice, like empowering. I'm responsible for myself. That's what I see when I watched you both.

It's the I was in such awe of what you're able to do with your bodies and the strength that the two of you have, not just physically, the physical strength. Yes, but what it must take mentally. Way more. How much of it is mental, Miranda? I would think like maybe like 90 percent. If you don't believe you can do something, you're not going to be able to do it. Yeah, like I think if you've got that kind of brain power to commit then it's possible and do you have off days where you know because I mean what you do yeah what

happens so do you but you still have to perform or can you just say not today do you know because everyone has off days everyone has days where they're tired or maybe you've got your period like anything but once you've done it once you know you're kind of capable of doing it again and you just take care of yourself. And there's quite a small circuit, isn't it? So you all know each other. Pretty much. It's actually a really nice thing and it's something that I love also having worked in the dance world

and the theatre world is that it feels like a really supportive industry in general. So everybody, you know, will help each other out, will train together, will sort of share tricks or technique tips or that kind of thing and pass work around. You know, if I can't do a gig, I've got a bunch of great aerialist friends that I can recommend. So I think in general it's a really nice supportive environment. Is it dangerous?

I mean, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It is dangerous um varying danger depending on the discipline and where you are and that sort of thing how high you are if you're doing aerial but I mean everything's dangerous you know um how high how high have you been so the highest I've ever been was actually the Olympics we did the Olympics opening ceremony and that was I believe something like 60, 62 metres.

Weren't you Mary Poppins? I was Mary Poppins, yeah. But we were on a line, we were on a harness, so it was a little bit different because we were clipped in. And obviously when we do the show in the tent, we don't have any sort of safety measures. So we're just relying on our muscles. You see, there's something, talking to the two of you, there's something in me that's like, oh, I don't want to give this a go. Give it a go? No, but do you know, what about the two of you, there's something in me that's like, oh, I don't want to give this a go. Give it a go. No, but do you know, what about the fear of heights?

I bet I'm not the only one. I bet there's people listening thinking, oh, yeah, keep your feet. I wouldn't climb a ladder. You can learn. You wouldn't climb a ladder. No, not unless someone else is there. You hang by your hair for a living, but you wouldn't climb a ladder. I've practiced that.

Ladders, nothing to hold on to, could topple over. Then you're left in a room on your own. We need to discuss this a bit more because actually there might be people thinking, I want to try this, but we should say people shouldn't just try. No. You know, how do you even start? Where do you begin with being someone who is suspended by their own hair? Well, because I did aerial before, I already had like good body awareness

and I knew how to engage and like understood kind of how my body worked um but I would say like body work and body awareness before you jump into aerial and then just conditioning like conditioning on an apparatus you will get to where you want to go but slow and steady but no conditioner in the hair conditioning of the body but no conditioning in the body no conditioner in the hair conditioning of the body but no conditioning in the body no conditioner in your hair yeah I'm just very I like the idea of being able to scuttle off somewhere what did you say scuttle up a wall scuttle up wall yeah shimmy up a wall shimmy up a wall and this job takes you around the world you've just come back from America Miranda yes I was in America I'm doing this like big kind of Halloween extravaganza, which was great, but four shows a day.

And Halloween in America is big. So to go from Halloween straight into Christmas is quite funny. Change. And tell me about performing in your hometown. How was that? I love performing at the Edinburgh Fringe. I think out of all career highlights, it's always the best one because when you're swinging over the audience, I'm like, oh, you used to take me to school.

And yeah. And this is a family show or an adults only show if we come to Le Cleeg? I think it's sort of, I suppose it's geared towards adults. It's not necessarily for small children. But I think also this year, it's not like the most outrageous version of it that there's ever been. There's a few kind of risque acts, but I think, you know, teenagers, it's fine for. Well, Le Clique is at Leicester Square, a Spiegel tent, until the 5th of January. Thank you both, Miranda and Catherine, for coming in to speak to me.

Join me tomorrow for Weekend Woman's Hour. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. I'm Hannah Fry. And I'm Dara O'Brien. And in the all new series of Curious Cases, things are getting curiouser and curiouser. We'll be looking the universe squarely in the eye and demanding an answer to your everyday mysteries. Including, can you actually die of boredom? Why do some people taste music? And how many lemons would

it take to power a spaceship? We will shine a light on the world's most captivating oddities. Brought to us by you, you delightful bunch of weirdos. I don't think you're allowed to call them that. But I love them really. Curious Cases. On Radio 4. And available now on BBC Sounds. I'm Sarah Treleaven, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake.

No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.