Woman's Hour - Former CEO of PepsiCo, Indra Nooyi; The R Kelly verdict; Barrister Robin Moira White; FIFA 2022 game soundtrack

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

The former CEO of PepsiCo, Indra Nooyi was one of the only women, and women of colour, leading a Fortune 500 company. She discusses the challenges facing female leaders and whether women can "have it all". The American singer R Kelly is facing a life sentence after being found guilty of multiple offences related to the sexual abuse of women and children. We hear from Jacqueline Springer, a black music journalist and university lecturer about the case that’s being called a landmark moment for black women being believed as a victims. For over 20 years the Fifa game soundtrack has featured some of the most well-known artists across all genres of music. This week the track list for 2022 has been revealed. As well as some familiar names, a new up-and-coming rapper has been chosen – 19 year old Willow Kayne. Emma speaks to Willow about what it means to her to be included and the power of music in football.Plus we hear from Robin Moira White a barrister specialising in employment and discrimination law, known for her work on trans discrimination cases and co-author of A Practical Guide to Transgender Law.Presenter Emma Barnett Producer Beverley Purcell Photo credit: Dave Puente

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, I'm Emma Barnett and welcome to Woman's Hour from BBC Radio 4. Hello and welcome to today's programme. And away from the chaos at some of the petrol pumps in the country, news outlets also feature seemingly opposing reports on the benefits of working from home. In one corner is the study from neuroscientists at University College London who claim the commute is good for you as it creates healthy boundaries between home and work with benefits for mental health,

fitness levels and work-life balance. And in the other, a new YouGov survey for the BBC, which shows that just over half of women think working from home will help them progress in their careers as childcare and caring responsibilities become less of a hindrance to working full time. Today, one of my guests has made it her new mission to, as she puts it, build a world where it's easier to mix our work and home life. The former chief executive of PepsiCo, Indra Nooyi, often struck a lonely, powerful figure in a sea of male suits running some of the world's largest companies.

But what has she learned that could perhaps help you and all of us? And does such a world exist where it is easier to mix our work and home lives from where you're sitting? And not only talking to those, just to be very clear, but to those who have children, to all of us. What have you done to make your life more manageable as you juggle a job and life outside and away from work

if you do have as much of a life as you'd like? And has that changed during the pandemic? You can text me here at Women's Hour on 84844.

Text will be charged at your standard rates. On social media we're at BBC Women's Hour or email me your views, your experience, your take on this

through our website. Also on today's programme 19-year-old British rapper Willow Kane on what's been getting her going, and a trans barrister who's used her own experience to fight discrimination cases on both sides. But first, in what's been called a landmark moment for black women being believed as victims,

the American singer R. Kelly is facing a life sentence after being found guilty of multiple offences related to the sexual abuse of women and children. A court in New York heard that Kelly, who's best known for the song I Believe I Can Fly, used his fame to coerce and groom his victims. He's due to be sentenced in May next year. Eleven accusers, nine women and two men,

took the stand during the six-week trial to describe sexual humiliation and violence at his hands. Tamara Simmons was one of the executive producers of the 2017 documentary Surviving R. Kelly, which helped lead to his prosecution. She said because the victims were black, they found it harder to get justice. To me, that was a victory for black women in America, black women all over the world, that we can now talk about the things that happened to us, regardless of who the predator is, and we can be believed. And because of these survivors and their bravery, this is the reason why they were able to receive justice. And we're now able to say that black women can now be heard. Jacqueline Springer is a black music journalist and university lecturer.

I asked her just before coming on air for her reaction to the verdict. I was surprised. I was surprised that the jury came back when it did. I don't know if I expected them to be deliberating for longer, but on all charges as well, I was surprised. But some people are saying it's a real moment. waiting for longer, but on all charges as well, I was surprised. But yes. But some people saying it's a real moment for believing black women. It is.

And I also think that in the wider context of the way in which we respond to the confirmed revelations of women, black women and girls, of people who have abused them over a long period of time or even at all. I think we used, we tend to look at, or we tend to refer to issues in this way, in a way that comforts those who are not involved in this kind of horror. Oh, it's a watershed moment this this is a line in the sand and before we get to those watershed moments before we even put our feet on the sand we have been told consistently historically to listen to victims to listen to black victims girls who are deemed to be fast the way that they um the way that they dance the way they talk their mouths are too slick the way that they do all of way that they talk, their mouths are too slick,

the way that they do all of this, as if in some way being your race and being your gender is an enticement to a fate that befalls you when it is actually the actions of men who believe that their positions in particular realms of society, not just the music industry, politics, you know, industry, that they can actually have what they want and they can employ people to supply that. And that the very supply of children, of young women, of ambitious women, and in some contexts, some parents thinking, well, he's successful, I can trust him. This abandonment of the vulnerable and a willingness to rank who's more vulnerable than others, I think that's the reckoning that we should actually be looking at,

why we ignore particular demographics of women and girls, and what that also says about the way in which while we have those debates the way in which abusive men continue on the path of their own perversions and pleasures you mentioned the positions of of men and power for some of our listeners they they won't be aware of how powerful and successful R. Kelly was R. Kelly musically defined the 1990s in terms of a sound, in terms of a visual aesthetic. He's a gifted singer, a gifted songwriter. He is somebody who has problems with his own ability to read. He's talked about this and yet making songs, making hits, writing songs, talking about his, you know, his. His inner emotions, confessing about the love of his mother and at the same time being very frank about sex in a way that people find amusing, titillating.

You know, you can actually be a very good songwriter and you can also be somebody who has done the things that he has been convicted of. And what we need to look at if we're talking about a reckoning is look at the way in which these elements jigsaw into the music industry and how we have folkloric statements like, oh, sex, drugs and rock and roll, or my gosh, I wish I was X from the 1960s. Think of all the girls. Think of all the women that they've been through and all of these things, the dehumanising way in which we've referenced women,

the way in which some women have been willing to be with famous men because of the status. We need to look at the way in which society functions around sex and sexuality, around... Do you think it's changed? If I could just come in at that point, because you know an awful lot about culture and the music scene particularly.

I know that this is across society in different ways, but the way that we build up those particular stars and what's been glamorised in certain lyrics and the way that power comes and circulates around certain people and disproportionate power goes to people often in the entertainment industry. Do you think it has changed in any way in the last few years? In the last few years, we had a grime MC called Solo 45 who was convicted of horrendous acts of sexual violence against women and their fear was a just like the victims of R. Kelly was a being believed and who they could actually approach you also have women and and some young men who have made

allegations public allegations against executives within the British music industry, the international music industry, and you have a level of inaction. The music industry is a byproduct of society. People from society, you know, migrate into the music industry. Their views on sex, sexuality, gender, everything, they actually perpetuate the very entertainment that we, that they market. And how sex and sexuality is marketed, the fact that it is a tool was part of R Kelly's appeal, that you could actually have an album called 12 Play, and he's taken you through the 12 steps of sex. No one talked like that if you were for your first, in you were in your first foray through adolescence.

You know, you hadn't listened to Marvin Gaye's album. No, that's my dad's music. This is my music. So intergenerationally, everything seems like the emperor's new clothes. So for somebody who's in their teens when the Rolling Stones were talking about satisfaction. That was a revelation. It was condemned by the elder generation who themselves had jazz and some of the titillating lyricisms and the euphemisms, again, for expressing yourself musically

about the very thing that intoxicates people, which is sex. And so when you're, whether things have changed, you're asking about change, which within a music industry that constantly reinvents the generational wheel of appealing to people musically across genres, and genres are then subdividing constantly. And so you have this thing where it's a blaze.

Society has to change. There has to be a way in which men are petrified through their own moral standards of actually doing some of the things that these men, Solo, 4-5, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein, any of these people are doing. Because what ends up happening is, as in 2018 when there was a screening of Surviving R. Kelly, Dream Hamptons documentary series, somebody or somebody or plural, some people felt that it was their right to phone through a gun threat that had that screening abandoned, rather than have these women see themselves talking about the very things that they had either suppressed or actually felt, I must speak. And the toll that all of these hours of confession had on Dream Hampton, the journalist, turned documentarian. Even she's spoken about that, much less the experience.

And so when we're talking about whether or not this is a watershed moment, that was a watershed moment that somebody felt or some people felt that rather than have black girls and women listen to and have that screening take place in New York in 2018, they were going to issue a level of domestic terrorism to prevent them being heard. And that tells us something about the way in which there's that disposable, that they felt that that could actually succeed, and also that they felt that they could defend R Kelly, possibly somebody that they didn't even know. We don't know who made those threats, but those threats were given that because violence against women can be promised, alleged and executed. And if you then come forward, then there's also the idea that you're chasing money. You're looking for fame. I don't know anybody who's actually enjoying a level of celebrity

by being a victim of abuse. What we're talking about here with people like Tarana Burke are people who have actually had to bring themselves open in order to heal and they also use their own experiences to actually pursue change. This idea that people are monetising their confessions is part of the discourse of dishonesty as well. Jacqueline Springer, a black music journalist and university lecturer, reflecting on what this moment might mean as R. Kelly is convicted and facing a life sentence. Now, you've been getting in touch with us about working and your life and how the two do or do not go together and perhaps how that has changed during the pandemic. I wanted to read a couple of messages before I go to my next guest. Heidi says, I've been working from home since the pandemic began, during which time I've had extensive surgery for cancer. Working from home has allowed me to continue working, whereas otherwise I wouldn't have been able to do so.

Yesterday I was told I'm expected to work full time in the office from Monday. I'm very despondent as when it suited my employer, it was fine to work from home, but now I need to work from Monday. I'm very despondent as when it suited my employer it was fine to work from home but now I need to work from home it would seem that the tables have turned. Another one here an anonymous message saying I'm working from home for the first time in my career. Formerly I was a midwife working on calls and shifts. The situation for NHS midwives is impossible at the moment. My new role is brilliant though. It's amazing to be able to have time for myself and my family. I can make a plan for a week and fit in a swim. I can fit in spending time with my children. I don't have the anxiety of on-calls and the exhaustion of split days and nights.

I'm a happier, healthier person. But it does mean I can't do the job I love. I've found a new passion for public health, but I miss the women and their families. I wouldn't change a thing. I could if I want to be going back to the office a couple of days a week now. So meeting colleagues will be lovely, but I'd still have all the working from home benefits. A message that ended with a little heart. Well, is it easier to mix our work and home life? Or are there just certain jobs where you literally could never do

that? Or are you finding ways around it or reconciling yourself to some of the choices or realities that aren't choices that you have to live with? One of the new missions of my next guest is to see about the reconciliation of those two realms. Indra Nooyi, the former chief executive of the US food and drinks giant PepsiCo, a business she ran for 12 years, constantly featured on the annual lists of the most powerful women in business. She was one of the only immigrants and women of colour to run a Fortune 500 company. Born in India, Indra emigrated to America to study at Yale School of Management.

She worked at numerous companies such as Motorola before rising up the ranks of PepsiCo, becoming chief executive in 2006 while raising two young daughters with her husband. She's written a new autobiography called My Life in Full, Work, Family and Our Future. She joins us now. Good morning. Morning, Emma. Thank you for having me on your programme. Thank you for being with us. A lot to cover and a lot to get to. I just wanted to start with that

brilliant story of, well, some people may say it was mean, some people may say it was humbling, of your mother's reaction when you tried to tell her what you just achieved at work when you you had had a big moment in your in your career at pepsi and i think she asked you to go and get some milk this was back in 2000 when i was working on the quaker roads acquisition and it was by 10 o'clock in the night i was still in the office and my new boss called called to tell me that i was going 10 o'clock in the night. I was still in the office and my new boss called to tell me that I was going to be made president of the company and on the board of directors. So I was over the moon because it was a big moment. This is not something that I ever expected would happen to me. So I got in the car, drove the 10 minutes home and I noticed that

my husband's car was already there. So I walked in saying, good, I can give in the car, drove the 10 minutes home and I noticed that my husband's car was already there. So I walked in saying, good, I can give everybody the good news. Got up there and my mother was waiting at the top of the stairs. And I said, mom, I've got big news for you. She said that big news can wait. Just go get me milk. I said, but it's 10 o'clock in the night.

Why would you ask me to get the milk? What time did my husband come in? She said about eight o'clock. I said, why didn't you have him get the milk? Oh, because he looked tired. All right. Eight o'clock, tired. Ten o'clock, you want me to go get milk? Fine. I got the milk, came back, put it on the countertop. And I said, you know, I had really big news for you. I became president. I'm going to be on the board of directors. This is unbelievable. And all that you wanted to do was have me go get the milk without listening to what I had to say.

She just looked at me with this look, which is like cut it out and said, you know, when you I don't care whether you're president or on the board of directors of PepsiCo. I don't even know what that means. When you enter this house, you're a mom, you're a wife, you're a daughter, you're a daughter in law. So do me a favor and leave your crown in the garage. So I was like miffed because she could have let me enjoy that moment for just a couple of minutes, perhaps. But once that short-term anger passed by, I sat back and reflected on what she had to say. She was right. You know, I should leave my crown in the garage. Although, you know, deep down inside, I still think she should let me celebrate myself for a couple of minutes. But the big problem is that for men,

we allow them to bring their crown into the garage. In my home, men certainly are allowed to bring their crown into the garage. So my husband and I had a lovely conversation about this and said we both would make sure we never bring our crowns into the house. Yeah, although if he did get home at eight o'clock, he could have got the milk, right? She should have told him we were out of milk at eight o'clock.

She didn't. This is very cultural there, right? But we both decided our crowns don't belong in the house. If we have crowns, I don't even know where the crown came from, but they don't belong in the house. If we have crowns, I don't even know where the crown came from, but they don't belong in the house. And it was a lesson in humility that the jobs that we have as parents, as daughters and sons and sons-in-law and daughters-in-law is very different than the job we do at work. So I've interpreted that to mean, you know, bring yourself down and bring that humility back into yourself as opposed to thinking that we all work for you. We don't. Yes. And I think what's an interesting point

to pick up on there, and then I want to get to bringing our work life and life away from work together or trying to make them easier, which is how you've put it, is a lot of people, a lot of women struggle to bring their feminism or their attitude towards equality into their homes. They often fight for things and feel things are their right, even if they can't fight for it in the workplace or outside of the home, but can revert. I'm not talking about all women here, but can find themselves either being assumed to do certain things or revert to doing all of those jobs within the home. That is the reality today. There are very, very few homes where you've got equality in the sense that both people in the marriage sort of sit down and say,

we're going to do this together. Very often the woman ends up doing more of the housework. And all the studies show that the split between the man and the woman is like 60-40 or 70-30 in terms of the work at home. There are two ways to look at it. It went from 90-10 or 100-0 to 70-30, so we're making progress. The real question is, with the young generation coming up, will there be more equality at home? And, you know, in many ways, Emma, I think the problem is with us parents too, because we modeled a behavior where the women did more work. And as the young people, the millennial generation grows, my hope is that they don't model that kind of behavior.

And there's more equality where one person doesn't feel completely exhausted all the time and is still expected to smile through the exhaustion. I mean, you mentioned also that your mother being in your house at 10 o'clock at night. One of the ways you found through this was by living with your parents. We live in a multigenerational household, which has its positives, which has its issues. But on balance, it has positives. If you work an equation out with your spouse. That multi-generation living actually helps. It's an attitude. You've just got to accept it.

And so when we had children, we could afford help now and then, but then we never wanted our children to be home without family members around them. And so some combination of my family or his family always stepped up to help us. And if we didn't have this multi-generational living and from their perspective, this intergenerational responsibility

to support the young ones, I'm not sure I could have ascended the way I did because my husband had a career too and he was travelling all the time. So we could not have managed life. So again, it's trade-offs and you've got to reorient yourself. But for a lot of people, that's not possible for a range of reasons, whether the property couldn't accommodate it,

they don't live anywhere near their family anymore, or maybe they're even not talking to family members, or they really would fear for their marriage, living with their father-in-law or mother-in-law or their own parents. That's a real reality. That's a real, real, real situation. We could do a whole programme on that and maybe we will. But just for people where that's not a reality, you're now saying you want to look at building

or helping certainly build a world where it's easier to mix our work and home life. What if you can't rely on your mum? What are you saying to those people? In most cases, people do not have the luxury of multi-generation living, that a multi-generation living that could be harmonious. So you're absolutely right. I think that we have to start off thinking about this as a business case, not just as a female

case or a feminist case. We've got to start off saying this is a necessity for the economy, because women are wicked smart. They're getting all the top grades in colleges and going to college in larger numbers to university. They are hungry to work. And they're very, very talented. How do we make sure that these women who are really coming into their own can actually come to work without too much friction

and yet have families? And that's the biggest challenge that we have in front of us. And the only way to do it is to provide a support structure around them that allows them to have families and come to work. Whether they're working from home or coming into an office, doesn't matter, just working. And it's a simple solution. It's building a very structured care network,

which helps them take care of both young kids and ageing parents, because many of us have ageing parents that we have to take care of. For some reason, the care network is being viewed as female. I would argue it's not female, it's family. And family is fundamental to our existence in society. But what does that mean day to day on the ground? And family is fundamental to our existence in society. It's fundamental to who? What does that mean day to day on the ground? When you say it shouldn't be viewed as a female issue, I'm well aware I'm talking to you where you've based most of your working life in America,

where maternity leave, paid maternity leave, still isn't where it should be, anywhere near where it should be, as I sit here in the UK. When you say it shouldn't be viewed like that, well, isn't that semantics? Because the reality is it's women who go off and have the children and are in this situation a lot of the time. Well, families have children.

Women give birth. Women give birth to the physical act of having a child, you know, go through that physical act. That means they're out of the workplace. You know, you can obviously, in some extent, go back very quickly, some people do, but you are actually removed. You should be removed for a short period of time

because having a child is a stressful experience. It's a joyful experience, but it's a stressful experience. You should be given the time to recover from having a child. But then you should be allowed to re-enter the workplace too. I mean, look, your brain doesn't have a child and you should be allowed to re-enter the workplace too. I mean, look, your brain doesn't have a child and you should be able to re-enter the workplace. But why is America so behind on this? You've been a leader of a major business.

How long did people at PepsiCo get paid maternity leave? 12 weeks. They got 12 weeks of maternity leave and then they got paternity leave. 12 weeks isn't very long, is it? No, but we had on-site daycare too. But look, we made progress. We went from almost no weeks of maternity care to four weeks, to eight weeks, to 12 weeks.

So we're making progress, right? In a society which didn't really value this sort of a leave, we are now putting that into place. We put in place on-site and near-site maternity, I mean child care. We put in place flexible work hours. We allow people to take Friday afternoons off for doctor's appointments and do all that stuff for kids. So we are trying to create an ecosystem in a society where it was believed that family rearing was something you do outside the office. I mean, you come into the office, you cannot bring yourself to work. I think that discussion has to change because if you want the best and brightest in society

to work in your company or your government organization or whatever, at a point when we're all in a war for talent and we have a shortage of great talent, we have to enable women to be able to engage in paid work outside the home. And I don't mean physically outside the home, paid work. And I think the only way to do it is to build a fantastic care network,

which is ubiquitously available, quality staff who are properly paid so that their pay of a child care worker is not below that of a grocery store clerk and provide the right subsidies to people who don't have the ability to work flexibly so that they can actually afford that child care. I mean you're talking there about and this is perhaps what you're going on to do with your work about the need for public provision and for governments to do this you're not when you're talking about that just to clarify people building their own care networks is only a part of this it's the provision that is there in society that views this and values this i just wonder there's a story you tell in the book about uh the coffee morning there's a 9 a.m coffee morning i believe it used to be at your your one

of your daughter's schools and and and quite, one of your responses was, how on earth is anyone who's working going to be able, you know, mum or dad, to go to a 9am coffee morning? And you figured out a response in the end to your daughter. It was not the greatest response, because at that point, I was just trying to survive the disappointment from my daughter. She basically said, look, mum, all of these mothers were at the class coffee and I checked and she rattled off all the mother's names. And so I decided that I'm never going to make it if this continues,

because she's going to go on telling me how I don't make the class coffees. So I called the school and said, how many mothers didn't show up? And they told me that maybe 30% of the moms show up, the other 70 don't show up. So when she told me about all the mothers that were there, I said, look, you know, the other mothers, A, B, C, and D didn't show up either. She looked at me and said, they didn't? I said, no, they didn't. I

looked at the attendance record. They don't show up either. And they don't work outside the house. They just don't show up. I explained to her though, every school board meeting, I was on the board of trustees of the school. I'd never missed one. And I said, the reason I go to that is because I really care about the school. I care about the future. I care about your future. So I have to choose class coffee or school board meetings. School board meetings happen at a decent hour at like five o'clock in the evening.

Class coffee is at nine o'clock in the evening. Class coffee's at nine o'clock in the morning. Now maybe your next job might be to change the time of the class coffee and make it a gin and tonic perhaps in the evening when people have to work. In a Catholic school for sure. Okay, maybe not. But you know, when people could kind of get to that point. I just also wanted to ask just finally about

a lot of women, and I've interviewed lots of women in very high profile positions, whether that's in business or in politics. And some of them, and quite rightly, balk or say they won't even answer if they're asked a question about their family, or how do you make it work and having it all and all of that. And I recognise we're having quite a different conversation, especially on a programme like Women's Hour, and not least what you've called your book. But why have you decided to wade into this, where a lot of women feel this just shouldn't be something they have to answer, because men wouldn't be asked those

questions? I honestly believe men should be asked those questions. But leaving that aside, I'm proud of my family. I'm proud of the fact that I have kids. That's who I am. The reason I am who I am, you know, in full is because of all of those tethers that I have. And I think we have to educate the men in power to start having these conversations. Family and women have to become central to the conversations about the future of work. We talk about going to Mars. We talk about technology. We talk about all that. But the critical part, family and female, have to become central to this discussion of future of work. And the reason we women have to talk about it is that we create the future consumers. We create the future employees. We create the future of the country.

Give us respect. Talk about it. Do not delegate all the trouble to us. You men in power have to listen and do something about it. Well, I'm happy you got the milk that time. Indra Nooyi, thank you very much for talking to us. You men in power have to listen and do something about it. Well, I'm happy you got the milk that time. Indra Noor, thank you very much for talking to us. The book is called My Life in Full, Work, Family and Our Future. And there's much more we could have covered. A message here from Cathy just talking about work and life and what's changed during the pandemic. Cathy says, I'm tired of listening to people talking about working from home. The discussions assume that this is an option for most of us. It denies the experience of all of us who work in face-to-face services. It is not

possible to serve customers in a library as I do from home. I have to work casual hours to fit in caring for my disabled daughter. Another message, very valid point to make the point about not everybody being able to work from home. But as the original question posed, I wanted to understand from you when you hear the phrase building a world where it's easier to mix our work and home. But as the original question posed, I wanted to understand from you when you hear the phrase, building a world where it's easier to mix our work and home life. How does that look from your perspective? And thank you for that message there. Regarding working from home, my commute from Sheffield to Leeds used to take around three hours a day, door to door and cost around £400 per month in parking and rail fares. Now working from home, I decided to borrow money to get a garden office,

a loan that I'm repaying at £400 per month for several years. So I'm currently no worse off financially and a few years time when the loan is cleared, I'll be much better off. The three hours a day saved in commuting,

I split between spending a little longer at work and more family and leisure time. I appreciate this does not work for all jobs and all dwelling types, but personally, I feel that both my mental health and productivity have improved with the new arrangement.

And another one just in response to what Indra was saying or part of our conversation from Jessica, multi-generational living and working from home needs changes in planning and the way we build homes. I think all new builds should consider garden offices slash annexes. This allows for a granny annex, an au pair, teen kids living, working from home office or rental.

A thought there about, I suppose, the infrastructure within which we live our lives. Well, talking about your leisure time, are you a fan of the game FIFA? For over 20 years, the iconic video games official soundtrack has featured some of the biggest music artists from Blue to Billie Eilish. And this week, the 2022 track list was released. One of the tracks selected is from 19-year-old rapper Willow Kane, and I spoke to her yesterday. But first, here's a snippet of her song, Two Seater. I worked in the building with attitude, I'm the leader I'm the type that people say, damn, I hope I could meet her I don't give a money, I buy myself a two-seater I pull on my butts when calling it Lil Benita

I worked in the building with attitude, I'm the leader I'm the type that people say, damn, I hope I could meet her Yeah, I found out like a week before it was announced and here we are. And now, we're FIFA girl. Yeah, because if you aren't into FIFA, and I have to say, I lived with people

who played it non-stop. So I know it vicariously, I'm going to be honest. It's a big deal. Oh yeah. I went to second just going to the UK. It's a big deal

for some people. But yeah, just madness. Madness. Do you think it's going to have an even bigger impact on your career as well? I hope so. I hope so. Also, I don't't mind to be honest with you i've had on tiktok

i've had a few feet not a few but many actually fifa children being like you shouldn't have been on it and i'm like oh sorry why why would they say that i don't know i don't know i think i just have time on my head for being a girl as well yeah tick tock which is fabulous but yeah do you think that's part of it that because obviously others have done it other women have done it billy eilish has been on there there's been other people who've been on the soundtrack but do you think it is still a bit of a thing when when a woman gets on it i do think so yeah just because i've seen other people online announced they're on it and it's just completely different treatment,

which is great. I like the way you're laughing. Is that how you deal with it? You've got a good sense of humour? Well, I'm still on FIFA. I'm not on FIFA. I'm all right. That is the right way to deal with it. In fact, I've seen that you said

some people have got in touch with you from your school days saying congratulations. Your school days weren't that long ago. But I saw that you said some people have got in touch with you from your school days saying congratulations your school days that weren't that long ago but I saw that you said you know success is the best form of revenge yeah tell me more about that definitely well I just can remember there were certain people at my school who I I know I didn't have like who had opinions of myself and they're all FIFA kids and I just think it's hilarious and it feels way better than if i were to ever you know say anything a bit rude to them so yeah let let the music let the success do the talking um oh yeah i know music's also become it became quite intense for you and very important for you at one point in particular because you had something happen with your eyes oh yeah oh my gosh

this was this is crazy when I well I think it's crazy when I was like 15 I got went blind in my right eye no but there's um I had I got like a cyst on my cornea like a really bad ulcer and it scarred and I spent darkness for a very long time and it just like it impacted a lot of other things not just my sight but like being in darkness for that long I noticed I don't know I was noticing things in my favorite songs I'd never noticed before like things smelled different it was weird it like messed up with my senses but helped me to be honest here we are how long how long did it take before the vision came back in that eye I've still got a scar on my pupil, so we're still here.

But it's faded a lot, like it's faded big time. But it's still, yeah, it's not going to get away. Yeah, exactly. But it must have made you think about the world differently and perhaps write differently and think about your lyrics more. What made you want to be a rapper? What made you want to be in the music game? I mean, I was just doing it as a, you know,

just my own little thing, little private. I don't know, I wasn't really doing it for anyone else, to be honest. I think I was just lucky enough that people actually liked it. So I would have just carried on doing it anyway, to be honest, if it didn't turn into a career. I'm just, yeah. For people who don't know a lot of your work,

how would you describe it? I use it as a secret diary. It's my angry diary. It know a lot of your work, how would you describe it? I use it as a secret diary. It's my angry diary. It's a lot of my songs. And what's been the source of your anger recently? Or what have you been getting angry about that you wanted to write about? I Don't Want To Know,

which is my most recent song that came out. That song is completely about hate comments. That was something I was really not prepared for about the internet. Especially, I'm still small. I'm still babbling as well it's just like it's crazy it's just people you don't know attacking you like that so I've only got two songs out properly but Two Seater was running I was getting messages every day like I don't know why I'm getting so much hate Willow like I thought the song was great I was like what hate what are you talking about kept getting

messages every day oh see that message below and someone said this about you gosh savage i was like what is everyone talking about and then like two weeks later i was in i just arrived at a session with my with oscar shelley who produced that record and i'm there on the phone to my friend i'm like what is everyone talking about it's a bit of bait don't know what's going on. And he was like, have you not seen the advert, Willow? And he sends me the link and they had ran a TikTok advert of just one of my videos.

Like, hey guys, this is my song. Did you see it? And I'm like, check it out. Oh my God, it was savage. Like over a thousand comments just slating me,

but yeah. So that's what, that's what prompted that. And you know, I love that. I love and hate for you that people think it's helpful to send you a message going oh have you seen what

they're saying about you I mean who wants to know we started that like two minutes after I saw that yeah we'll use it right anger is fuel and you can use it really use it You mentioned a little bit about perhaps it's a bit worse as a woman going onto the FIFA soundtrack. How's it been being so young, starting out in the music industry, especially in rap, which is still male dominated? God, I think as time goes on, I realise...

I don't know, I was having a conversation with my boyfriend the other day and was like, wasn't thinking about what I was saying. He was like, yeah, like, I know I can work with certain people because they wouldn't want to work with me because I'm a girl. And that made me... I, like, sat back and was like, that just came out of my mouth. And it's not that I don't think that as well.

Like, oh. And it just kind of freaked me out. I do think being a girl, especially in this world, I don't want to... I don't want to as well like oh and it just kind of freaked me out I do think being a girl especially in this world I don't want to I don't want to step on anyone's toes either but yeah it's a strange one there's definitely a lot of misogyny in this world as time goes on I'm realizing how it's affecting me yeah which is it can be it can be a slow realization it can be sometimes a bit later that you realise perhaps, oh, that's why that didn't happen.

Yeah, because in my head I'm just like, I'm Willow and this is me. I don't like it. But then as time goes on, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's because I don't want to work with women actually, isn't it? Nice. Where is their image? And it's like, ah. So that's great.

Well, maybe that's fuel for the next song that's yeah yeah oh it's a good topic it's a very good topic willow cane thank you for talking to us uh we may have a bit of a teaser there as to what the next track will be now the law as it concerns trans rights is a hot topic at the moment with different political parties policies on gender self-id under the spotlight. First Minister Nicola Sturgeon's going forward with plans to amend the Gender Recognition Act in Scotland to make it easier for people to self-declare their gender. You may have heard my recent interviews with Christine Jardine from the Liberal Democrats and yesterday Ian

Murray from Labour in which I asked about their party's support for reform of the GRA which many opposed because they believe it would clash with women's rights as a protected group under equality law. Well, Robin Moira-White is a barrister specialising in employment and discrimination law. She's known for her work on trans discrimination cases and wrote into the programme last week. She's co-author of A Practical Guide to Transgender Law, the only legal textbook on the subject.

Robin transitioned herself in 2011, the first to do so in practice at the Discrimination Bar and is up for two industry awards this year. Robin, good morning. Good morning. I wanted to ask about those topics that come up regularly on the programme and matter to many of our listeners, for example, of course, gender recognition and self-ID. But before we get to that, I wanted to understand more about your background and your work in the law. Why did you become a lawyer? Well, it wasn't a choice.

I was a manager in the rail industry on the accelerated promotion scheme and was working through very successfully, but had told my employer that I was trans and I got to a certain level and bumped into, well, not a glass ceiling, but certainly a ceiling and was told that I would not be further promoted. And I was trained in a group that included, there's a wonderful woman in our group called Diane Crowder, who's chief exec of HS1, High Speed Line to the Coast, and that's perhaps where my career was headed.

But back in 1990 in Bristol, because trans people weren't protected, I could be told that my promotion wouldn't continue. And so I left the rail industry, wondered what to do, decided that I'd do something about what had happened and became a lawyer. And we should say you're known as the go-to lawyer for trans cases. And I want to get to what that means in a moment. but when did you decide to finally transition? I was in my later 40s I'd got to the point I mean that particularly that kickback at work I might have transitioned in my 20s and that horrible treatment meant that I crawled into my shell decided that I had to find a way to live in the way that society wanted and got to the point in

my 40s where I just couldn't continue to do that. I was living a lie. I was living as a shell and I wanted to live as me. The Equality Act came the year before, I believe, your transition in terms of 2010, united under one legal roof, and I'll probably say it in ways that aren't quite legally correct, but lots of pieces of equality legislation. What changed for trans rights? OK, the big change in the Equality Act was that trans people had been protected since 1999 under a set of regulations that had amended the Sex Discrimination Act.

And that required that to have the protected characteristic, you had to be under medical supervision in your transition. And the big change for trans was to remove that. So all you have to do from the enacting of the 2010 Act, all you had to do was to declare to your employer that you proposed to transition and then you're protected. And of course, so that's very specific under employment, on the employment side of things.

And I just wanted to get an example from you about how trans people you meet are being discriminated against today. What sort of cases or things do they ask advice about? Well, some people will know that I acted in a case called Taylor and Jaguar Land Rover last year, things do they ask advice about? Well, some people will know that I acted in a case called Taylor and Jaguar Land Rover last year, where someone who identified as gender fluid or non binary came out to their employer and had virtually the experience 30 years on that I'd had all that time ago, and were not subject to horrible harassment from work colleagues

and not protected from that by their employer. And a very large employer. And ended up so run ragged that they had no choice but to resign. And that was from, they were a highly skilled engineer in the automotive industry, highly valued by the employer, but just couldn't stay at work because it was so horrible. And so that's a case, of course, that, as you say, had echoes of your own experience these years on. But in terms of the other types of issues that come up still, can you

give us an instance of that? Is there one particular issue at work that comes up again and again or a couple? I think there is. It's funny, around the time of the equality act uh it seemed that there would be forward motion um in terms of accepting that some people define themselves differently from the way that society wants you know regards as the norm or the the um i always think of that sliding block puzzle for children that society expects people to be the blocks that fit through the holes. And I think there's a continuing issue in educating, I speak regularly on trans issues, educating people that there are a small but significant minority who just don't fit the norm. And in the same way that 20 years ago, we got used to not necessarily asking someone were they bringing their husband to an event,

but they might have a female employee, might have a female partner. And we got used to that. We still trip over trends in exactly the same way. You mentioned a small, significant, but significant minority. It's fair to say in your practice, your employment practice, You mentioned a small, significant, but significant minority. It's fair to say in your practice, your employment practice,

this is a very small proportion of your cases. Is that right? How small are we talking? Well, I suppose I'm in a slightly unusual position because, yes, I'm well known for work in this area. For me, it's probably about a third of my practice. But I would guess for many other employment lawyers, much less. But they tend to be very visible cases, cases that make the headlines, cases that come to notice. And I also know there's another area that's been part of what you've looked at is advice around toilets. Oh, yes.

I tell you, I qualified as a lawyer, spent a long time working through things, and end up giving advice about toilets regularly, both in workplaces and in education. And I think it's a point, you see, it's the point we don't have segregated workplaces anymore. Anybody who's watched the film Hidden Figures, you'll recall that we had race segregation even in the early days of NASA in America. Unbelievable to believe

that. And we don't have segregated workplaces anymore. There are very few jobs that have any form of sex segregation in them now. So in the workplace, that's probably the cutting edge of where there is segregation between the sexes. And where if there is any problem to occur, that's where it's likely to occur. It can be lawful to exclude a trans woman from a service, can't it? Yes, but it has to be a proportionate means of achieving legitimate aim. Because in a sense, what it is, is allowed discrimination, because we're saying there is this category of people who, for a particular reason, can be excluded from somewhere. Is there an example you can give?

There are, if you get to something like breast screening, where if you're calling a group of women in for breast screening, there may be a higher degree of nakedness than there would be, for example, in the use of workplace service, perhaps who's early in transition, that they need to come at a different time or at the end of a list. So that's the extreme of the position that we need to get to before effectively allowed discrimination is justified. Because you have acted, we should say, the other way as well. You've also made the case for those accused of discriminating against trash.

Indeed. And you wouldn't think it remarkable that a female barrister, for example, would act, would defend an employer in a sex discrimination case. I'm not saying it's remarkable. I was more making the point that you do do that for people who are not familiar with your work because you have become known in this field. Yeah, and I take it as a matter of professional pride that people anywhere on this spectrum of belief, if I can put it that way, can come to me and get proper advice about the legal rights and wrongs of a situation. situation coming to um proposals for for new laws for changes to laws last year proposals to reform as i mentioned the gender recognition act in england were dropped by the government in scotland is pressing ahead nicola sturgeon has confirmed it uh that the smp and a coalition with the greens will be pursuing a change in the law on self id in the current parliamentary year making it possible

for people to have the legal right to self-declare their gender rather than provide medical evidence of gender dysphoria first. These proposals in Scotland would apply to anyone over the age of 16. Wouldn't allowing 16 to 18 year olds to self-ID mean they also might be offered gender realignment surgery when they're still considered children? I think one has to be very careful to split out the different elements. The medical profession is very careful about what it's appropriate to offer when. Rights in workplaces apply separately under separate tests and rights in education apply separately. And the point we mentioned mentioned the Equality Act.

That has included self-ID effectively since 2010. And there aren't riots in workplaces. You mean, sorry, specifically around employment you're talking? Unemployment. But that's also true, for example, in education. The Equality Act applies to education as it does to employment and it provides rights to trans people in employment but do you accept that this is one area of the law which seems to be going faster or further than many people are happy with discrimination i'm afraid always tends to be a bit like that as i say i, my practice reaches back over 25 years, and I remember the struggles that gay people had to be accepted.

And it was said that that legislation was going faster than people were comfortable with. It's right that we need to take as many people with change as possible when we make changes that follow societal changes. And it's important to work through that in an open and accepting way. I suppose what I'm asking here is, are you comfortable, or if perhaps it's not what you even want to say right now, I don't know, tell me what you think, are you comfortable with a 16-year-old, which we consider a child in England, potentially having surgery?

I mean, you waited until you were much older. I would have happily had surgery. I think had life been different, I would have probably transitioned in my early 20s if we lived in the modern world as opposed to the world that I had to live in. And what the Court of Appeal has recently decided is that the right person to decide whether a young person has the capacity to make those choices are the people who know them best. They're treating clinician and with the assistance of their family. And I wouldn't express a view

about a particular age and a particular person. I think you would have to look at the facts of the particular case. And the Court of Appeal has decided that those people closely involved with the individual are the best people to make that choice. Yes. The reason I'm asking that is because you're talking about law. And law is what's at stake here and what's going to change and what people might not feel comfortable with or feel very happy about. So it's an interesting thing to get your response to, both as a professional, but also as someone who's been through this yeah and i don't i'm not a fence sitter as some people have

been on some of these questions but what the law has decided recently what the court of people decided recently is that they're that's not something that you can give a definitive answer to that it will vary person to person in terms of their maturity and their understanding and their particular circumstance. And that's what should determine matters, not the view of people who don't know the individual or aren't associated with the individual. Let me come to something else then, because even by having these conversations, as you say, some people talk about fence sitting,

some people are very aggrieved about this, depending on perhaps where they come to this. Some people don't know very much at all. But just about this and something that was said this year, in May this year, Baroness Faulkner, Chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, said, quote, it was entirely reasonable for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men, quote, someone can believe that people who self-identify as a different sex are not the different sex that they self-identify and she went on to say a lot of people would find this an entirely reasonable belief now it's her job to enforce the equality act do you disagree or agree with her interpretation of the law on that i don't think she actually

stated the law and what um you need to look at is the implementation of that. So if someone has a particular belief, how are they going to exhibit it? The workplace is a particular place. People don't have a choice. I mean, you've been hearing about people who don't have a choice whether to work from home or whether to go into work. In our society, you have to work to be a part of the economic society for many people. So folks don't have a choice as to whether to go to work or not. And what workplaces should be is safe for people to go, do their work, be who they are and believe what they believe, but not necessarily impose it on other people. And an example, I mean, there's a fairly well-known case of a Christian nurse working in the NHS who firmly believed, and I don't criticise her personal beliefs,

that she wanted to pray with patients who were perhaps near the end of their life. But it was held inappropriate for her to be asking that question of patients because they may have different beliefs. And so that's the point at which the law should step in and protect people who may not agree with each other's belief. So, OK, so that's on the legal side of it. I suppose what I'm trying to understand is, are you comfortable with what she said in that position? I think it's entirely reasonable for people to challenge the biological status of women who were born as men. It depends what form that challenge takes.

The one thing when we're having a political discussion, it's absolutely another thing if that's a work colleague. Right. So you're talking about it in which context? Because, again, aware of, and slightly timers against me here, but in your understanding of the law this has also been in people's minds in the last couple of weeks due to politicians but does calling a trans woman a biological male constitute hate speech yeah it can do it's the purpose it's the purpose of and context of that comment i mean, only women have cervixes.

Now, is that a comment about biology or is that a comment that is saying trans women are not women in another way? And it depends why those words are being used and the context of them. I'm sure that we'll carry on with these debates for a long time to come. I suppose it's just the ability to say it generally. And I'm sure that we'll carry on with these debates for a long time to come.

I suppose it's just the ability to say it generally. That's also some people feel is threatened. Yes, it can be threatening. Imagine that being said in a workplace meeting. No, sorry, I said threatened, the ability to say it. But you're saying it can be threatening. But sorry, I'm just clarifying what I was saying. Some people believe they can't say those sorts of things at the moment.

Well, I think it's context. And I think if I mean, if that is a comment on someone's personal social media, that's one thing. Once again, the Court of Appeal at the end of the Forstater case made very plain that bringing those views into the workplace in a circumstance where they are the effect or the intention is to threaten another employee is wrong. Yes, you're talking about Maya Forstater at the EHRC, of course, intervened in that. She lost her job after colleagues criticized her attitude to transgender rights. They backed her appeal and it was a success. Well, the appeal about belief was a success. Well, the appeal about belief was a success. It didn't really change things because there's an earlier case called Higgs and Farmer School that suggests that gender critical beliefs can be protective beliefs. But it's about what happens then in the workplace. People can hold a belief, but do they improperly impose it on other people?

Do they make other people feel uncomfortable in the workplace? And that's when you run into difficulties. Thank you very much for talking to us today about the status of the law as it is at the moment. Of course, it's ever changing. Robin Moira-White, a barrister specialising in employment and discrimination law, we wrote into the programme last week. A couple of your messages to end on going right back to work in a different sense of how it's been changed for you and bringing your life together with work pippa says working from home is a demonstration of trust this is after more than half of women say it's going to help them if they're able to i'm happy to go to the office i'm happy to work from home i know my

work is of much higher quality as a result and i appreciate this is focused on many on office working but i'm sure this is just a matter of rethinking many ways of working. I would never have imagined an on-screen doctor's appointment would have worked so well. This comeback to the office makes the assumption that managers quote, know what is best for their staff and their bottom line.

And that is far from the truth. Of course, Pippa, thank you very much for that message. There's been a lot of debate about not seeing doctors face-to-face, certainly of late too. Debate is where we are at as a programme and we're all the better for your contributions.

Thank you very much for all of them and your company. I'll be back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Thank you so much for your time. Join us again for the next one. Hello there, I'm Richard Osman. Before you go, yes, I know you've switched off already, but in case you haven't, I want to tell you about my new Radio 4 podcast,

The Birthday Cake Game, a brand new comedy quiz that poses one simple question. Do you know how old people are? By which I mean, how old, say, is Bruce Willis? Hmm. Now, I know all you're doing now is thinking about how old Bruce Willis is and not listening to me, but I can tell you each episode, I'm joined by three celebrity guests who battle against each other to see how old celebrities are that week.

Richard Gere. I'm still enjoying the assertion that Richard Gere has always been old. What a beautiful baby, Mrs Gere. Unusual grey hair. So old, your baby. The winner takes home a birthday cake. A very special birthday cake from a supermarket I can't mention in the shape of an insect I can't mention.

You know the one I'm talking about. So tune in to find out who comes on top and see if you can beat the players and score higher at home. That's the birthday cake game. Listen and subscribe right now on BBC Sounds. How old is Bruce Willis? I'm Sarah Treleaven and for over a year I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who's faking pregnancies. I started like warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this? What does she have to gain from

this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.