Woman's Hour - Former Finland PM Sanna Marin, HIV and women, Left-Handed Girl

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

Sanna Marin is the former Prime Minister of Finland who made history as the youngest female head of government in the world. She went on to become the longest-serving female prime minister of Finland, leading a coalition government entirely headed by women. Sanna talks to presenter Clare McDonnell about her rise to the top, leading her country through the challenges of the Covid 19 pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, as well as dealing with enormous criticism when her personal life becoming very public – all themes in her new memoir Hope In Action.It’s World Aids Day and the government has just unveiled its new HIV Action Plan with the stated goal of tackling to stigma and end transmissions in England by 2030. Public Health Minister Ashley Dalton joins us to discuss the policy along with Ellie Harrison, who was diagnosed HIV positive when she was 21.With the rise of no and low alcohol drinks on supermarket shelves, a new survey from the University of Plymouth has been talking to expectant mothers about their relationship with these drinks and their understanding of what constitutes a safe percentage. To hear more, Clare is joined by Dr Kate Maslin, Senior Research Fellow in Maternal and Child Health School of Nursing and Midwifery at Plymouth University, who led the study.Filmmaker Shih Ching Tsou’s debut feature Left Handed Girl tells the story of a single mother, Shu-Fen, and her two daughters who move to Taipei, Taiwan to open a night-market stall. When I-Jing, the younger, five-year old daughter – who is left-handed - is forbidden from using what her traditional grandfather dubs her ‘devil hand,’ a chain of events is set in motion, which eventually unravels a family secret. Tsou joins Clare to talk about directing and co-writing the drama which is inspired by her own childhood, cultural superstition about the left hand and the lives of working-class Taiwanese women.Presented by: Clare McDonnell Produced by: Sarah Jane Griffiths

Hello, this is Claire McDonnell and you're listening to the Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to Woman's Hour. Today, we will hear from a woman who was once the youngest female head of government in the world. Santa Marin, former Prime Minister of Finland. She's now stepped away from politics and has had time to reflect on her time in office, all contained in a new memoir. On World AIDS Day, why are HIV diagnosis amongst women who are exposed through sex with men, rising, whereas for men

exposed in the same way, they are falling. The government has just unveiled its new HIV action plan. Public Health Minister Ashley Dalton will join me live in the studio. Should low alcohol drinks have clearer labelling to help pregnant women and

others distinguish them from the no alcohol versions? The charity Alcohol Change UK is calling for this. After a survey of pregnant women alongside Plymouth University, will talk to the lead researcher. And this morning, allow filmmaker Shijing Su

to plunge you into the technicolor high-octane noodle-infused vibrancy of the Taipei night market in her directorial debut left-handed girl. It tells the story of a single mother, Shufan, and her two daughters, struggling against the weight of cultural tradition in Taiwan, where men get the brakes and women while they just get by. Sheing Su joins me live.

in the Women's Hour Studio. And you can text the program. The number is 84844. And anything you hear us talking about today, text will be charged at your standard message rate on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour, and you can email us through our website. Or you can send a WhatsApp message or voice note

using the number 037-100-1044. Data charges may apply depending on your provider, so you might want to use Wi-Fi if you can. Terms and conditions can be. found on our website. But let's start this morning's program. Joining me live on the line from Helsinki,

Sana Marin, the former Prime Minister of Finland. When first elected in 2019, Sanna made history as the youngest female head of government in the world. And she went on to become the longest serving female Prime Minister of Finland leading a coalition government headed

entirely by women at the time. She led her country through the challenges of the COVID-19 pandemic. Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as well as dealing with enormous criticism when her personal life became very public. All themes that are covered in her new memoir, Hope in Action. Sana, welcome to Women's Hour. Thank you so much for having me.

Fantastic to have you on the programme. Did you always think you would become a politician, first of all, and then go on to be Prime Minister? Was that in your early thoughts? It wasn't, actually. When I was growing up, I never thought a career in politics, yet alone to becoming the leader of a government. When I was growing up, politics seemed so far away, older men in craysuits, talking about important issues, a world that seems so distant from the one that I was raising up. I come from quite humble background.

My mother was raised in an orphanage, started working when she was only 15 years old. had me when she was 23 and then had to leave my father only a couple of years later, because my father was a severe alcoholic. So she had to raise me with not wealth and not that kind of background from our family, that we would have everything on place and in order. But I was also fortunate to be able to enjoy

our welfare society that I was lucky enough to be born in Finland, where I had opportunity communities in my life, equal education, all those services that the Nordic welfare state provides us. So even though I didn't think a career in politics when I was young, when I was 20, I was also able to join political party and pursue my dreams and hopes because I got that background from our state. As you say, you benefited as a child from Finland's progressive policies, first member of your family to go to university as well. And you grew up in a same-sex parent household as well, didn't you, after your father, your mom and dad split up, your mother then went into a same-sex relationship.

How did that form your view on the world, do you think? Well, of course, when I was growing up in the 80s, in the 90s, it wasn't as usual as today to see Rainbow families and accept that there are different families and every family is still valuable. So at that time, it wasn't as easy, of course. And I also saw the injustices in our society then, the structures that treated people differently if they were, how would you say, like original or normal families and the families that came from a different background

and different status. So I saw those inequalities. And I also wanted to fix those inequalities and change the structures and legislation so that we would treat everybody similarly and everybody as equal. So, of course, those were also the things that drove me into politics to see the injustices in the world, in our society. So I always wanted to boost human rights, equality, rights for women and girls,

but also tackle the big challenges that humankind is facing, like climate change, loss of biodiversity. So when I was growing up, I never thought career in politics, but I felt passionate about the matters and then I wanted to fix the things that I saw that were unjust. Yeah, and I know you detail in the book how I was a very young child, just eight years old,

you thought, I'm going to save my local forest, that was under threat. So it was kind of ignited in you early on. Just to go back to what you were saying, you say this in the book as well, you say you write about how you feel women often feel they can't take responsibility without being completely perfect,

completely prepared. Now, you had to step in to lead your country as the leader of the Social Democratic Party because the leader of the party became ill unexpectedly and then the second vice chair as well. Did you feel ready for it? And if you didn't, how did you make yourself ready for that moment? We found ourselves in a very catastrophic situation

just before 2019 elections. Our party leader got severely ill and I was the first vice chair and then I had to step up to lead our election campaign just a few months before the elections so we were a lacking party leader a prime minister candidate and at that time i didn't feel ready i thought that that i'm not capable of doing all the things that were suddenly required from me but then i also thought that okay this is the situation now i have to handle that and i have to lead whether i think i'm ready or not and that actually also boost my confidence because when I had to do it, I noticed that I can do it. And our party support not

only stand still, but it actually rose a bit. So we were able to turn that catastrophic situation into a situation where people were trusting that we can lead, even though we were in a difficult situation. And that experience also taught me self-confidence and the trust that you can do things even when you don't feel quite ready enough. And I think many women find these situations that they think that they are not yet perfect or not yet as capable and not yet as ready. But that moment will never come. You have to just step up, take that lead, pursue also the moments and situations where you don't feel quite ready because those are the moments that will actually teach you many things that you will later need.

Yes, I mean, and what is it about Finland? I have to read you this. A UN-sponsored World Happiness Report for eight years in a row has described Finland as a country where women do well, where equality is in reach. And I mentioned this coming into this interview. You were prime minister when all the parties that formed your coalition were headed by women. How has Finland got there?

Finland was the first country in the world to not only able women to vote, but actually also run for office. And the first 19 women parliamentarians were elected in Finland. And since those days, those women, whether they came from the right-wing parties or from the left-wing parties, they worked together to build the welfare society, elderly care, child care, social and welfare services, equality. And that path made it also possible much, much later, for me to pursue my dreams and pursue positions in politics and also for the other leaders. So we are standing on the shoulders of those women that were building our welfare society and the equal opportunities. And I fully acknowledge this work. And also, I would say that I didn't come or I didn't make it

to be the prime minister because I was so exceptional. Of course, it needed a lot of passion and a lot of determination and a lot of strength and skills as well. But I was able to reach that position because of the welfare model that we have, that I had the opportunities to have my educational path and then rise to the political ladders to the top. And the same applies also to us women.

So I acknowledge the work that the previous generation did. And I think we have to continue to always able for the younger generations to have hopefully a bit easier paths than their predecessors. Access is one thing. Once you're there, I want to talk now about the scrutiny, your personal scrutiny in a moment when you were Prime Minister. But there's a report in the UK newspaper, The Guardian today, which carries comments from the Swedish Equality Agency. It says that increasing hate, threats, harassment against female politicians are scaring when women away from public life. The leader of the centre-left party resigned in October this year,

citing hates and threats. Now, Sweden, of course, is a different country to Finland. But I wonder whether you share those concerns. I do share those concerns. And I think we have to take it extremely seriously, because it's not only a threat to individuals that they leave politics or that they think that they cannot join political parties or run for office, but it is actually a threat to all of our democracies, if we lose women, if we lose people coming from minority groups, then we cannot have functional democracies that will have all those different angles and opinions and people's stories covered. So we need people from different backgrounds. And this worries me a great deal. And I can understand why women are shying away from political life and from speaking

their minds because the hatred and the violence that is also usually sexualized that comes from online, from different kind of platforms, social media platforms, on different kind of sites from the internet, it can be vicious. And it's attacks, not only from individual level, but it can be also massinated, massive attacks against individuals. And of course we have to understand that not everybody speaking online is a real human. There are also a lot of bots. But there is, I can see, there is this larger and wider phenomenon where women are attacked and tried to be silenced. And that drives them away from politics because it can be extremely harsh. Let's talk about your experience now. You came under a huge amount of scrutiny in August

2022. You detail in this the book. You became known as Finland's parting prime minister. People may remember this. There was a leaked video showing you out singing and dancing with friends. Now, you were famously defended by other high-profile women in politics, Hillary Clinton amongst them. And an

official inquiry found no reason to suspect you of unlawful conduct or neglect of your duties. But you actually ended up taking a drug test to show you hadn't taken drugs. How do you reflect on that now?

And do you think had you been a male prime minister, you would have come under the same scrutiny, had to come to the same conclusion that you had to do a drug test to say, no, there were no drugs in my system? Well, if I would have been a male prime minister, there would have been, of course, some news, but not weeks' long-lasting scandal or media scrutiny. And I think there are different,

standards for women and for men double standards. And the scandal was purely moralistic. I was on a summer holiday evening with my friends on a private apartment. We were singing and dancing and drinking wine. But then when these videos were leaked, there were all these different kind of questions that still feel extremely bizarre. So the story became something else. And then when the biggest or one of the biggest opposition party leaders hinted that there must have been some illegal things so the prime minister should go to make these tests just to prove that there wasn't anything illegal and of course i was extremely frustrated with the situation where there were no evidence nothing wrong has been done only singing and dancing having a good time on a free

free night out. And then I was forced to do this to clear my name and my reputation. So, of course, I felt extremely frustrated. It felt unfair, unjust, and the media scrutiny lasted for a long time. And I don't think that if there would be a similar situation with the male prime minister, that that media frenzy would have been as big and as long-lasting as it was for me. So I think there were a lot of those people that wanted to like show me my place as a woman that you shouldn't do that and you should just be performing a certain way and you shouldn't have the right to enjoy life differently. You mentioned the vicious backlash that women get and you got this a lot when you were prime minister. You were actually threatened

with rape as well. Many, many times. How did you cope with that? Well, you get used to it. I have also described on the book that I've been threatened with rape or different kind of sexual violence, especially online, but also sent it messages to me directly

so many times that I lost count ages ago. And I think this is a reality that I was explaining earlier that women, from overseas, fears of our society have to face. So it's not only something that as politicians have to face, but I think this is extremely usual for women to receive these kind of sexualized violent threats. And usually it's online and social media platforms. And I think the reason behind this is to try to just silence women, try to make us be scared, intimidated and silence us. And

we should do the exact opposite, not let that drag us down, but defend each other, defend other women, support other women, raise our voices, because we are needed in our societies and in our democracies, and we need to boost equality and not accept this hatred that we are now witnessing everywhere, and it's getting more and more common. And that's very unfortunate. You had many accomplishments during your time as Prime Minister. You extended free compulsory education until the age of 18 to promote stronger educational foundations, ease that transition into higher education. There was a lot of pushback, but you managed to get that through. You also navigated Finland's rapid joining of NATO after Russia invaded Ukraine.

That was a swiftest entry for any country in the alliance's history. This has been a question that had been kicked around politically for a very long time in your country. You had to have consensus. How did you get it? Well, of course, the main reason why Finland joined NATO was the Russian full-scale invasion in Ukraine, February 2022. Without that, I don't see that we would have that process at this time. It wouldn't happen during our governmental period because the majority of these citizens and maturity of political parties

were against NATO membership, applying from NATO membership before the full-scale invasion started. But then when we saw the reality that Russia, our neighbor, that we have a long border with, is not only attacking and being aggressor for its neighbors in the history books, but actually today's Europe, that changed the mindset, and that shifted the mindset collectively in Finland. And we were able to reach consensus on the matter with this process that were extremely fast, but still very thorough. And we walked hand in hand also with our other western neighbor, Sweden. So both countries had their processes during that spring and then reached consensus to apply for NATO membership. And that was just to ensure that we would be secure, safe, and not alone.

in the future, if similar things would happen in our borders that happened in Ukraine. You have walked away from politics now. You could say you're very much involved in the issues that you've always cared about. You now are working for the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change. When you were Prime Minister, your daughter, Emma, was just two at the time. And you write in the book how fortuitous it was that you sorted your childcare, but that now you're having time to spend to reconnect with your daughter. Looking back, and a lot of people listening to this would like to know how somebody like you

looks back on your time as Prime Minister and whether you think you managed to successfully find that work-life balance. Is that possible with a family to do the job that you did? Well, it's not possible to have balanced life when you are a Prime Minister. The work comes first always because there's nobody else to do that. So you always put your workforce first. And that also means that you are not able to have balanced normal life, spend time with your family like people normally can. And that also drained me. My daughter was under two years old when I started my work and I got, of course, a lot of support for my family.

So I never felt that there would be pressure me not to take that position or not do that kind of work. But still, I acknowledge that that would mean a lot of time away. from my family and doing that for four years and not be able to do as normal things as picking my daughter up from daycare or taking her to daycare or spending just time with her normally. That drained me and I wanted also to spend more time with her because I understand that she is a child only for a certain period of time. I can always return to politics if the citizens will vote for me in different positions but i will never get my child's childhood back again so i wanted to step away from the intensity of politics spent more time with her have more balanced life

because i worked so hard and so tirelessly for four years and now i have more time with her and just this weekend uh saturday we we had our little like pre-christmas celebrations and we gingerbreads and decorated our Christmas tree and did all those kind of things. So I'm very happy that I can now spend more time with her. We're very happy you spent time with us this morning as well. Thank you so much for joining us on Woman's Hour. That is Sana Marin, whose autobiography is out now. Thank you for joining us, Santa.

And it is a big week for former female heads of state this week on Woman's Hour. On Thursday's program, Kylie Pentelow is going to be speaking to the former Prime Minister of New Zealand. Gessinda Ardern, so you will not want to meet, miss that. That is this Thursday here on Woman's Hour. Now, today is World AIDS Day and the government has just unveiled its new HIV action plan with the stated goal of tackling the stigma around HIV and ending transmissions in England by 2030. A report published by the Women and Equality Select Committee last month found HIV diagnoses amongst women who were exposed to sex with men,

were up 26% compared to 2019, whereas for men, exposed through sex with men, the figures are down 35%. With me in the studio now to discuss this, and the government's new policy is public health minister Ashley Dalton. Welcome to the studio. Thank you. Hello. And we're also joined by Ellie Harrison, who was diagnosed HIV positive when she was 21. Ellie, hello. Hi. Great to have you on the program as well. Ashley, let's start with you. This is. is a surprising statistic, isn't it? HIV diagnosis amongst women who have sex with men are rising, in men in the same way, it's falling. What's going on? Well, I think one of the things that we've identified in this new action plan is how important it is to make sure that

services are gender-specific and targeted and, you know, accessible to people from different groups, because we are seeing a decline in HIV transmissions. And, and, you know, But has been highlighted, there are some alarming statistics in terms of women and particularly in terms of black African women. And so it's the state, I'm sure Eddie will say a little bit more about this as well. You know, one of the things that we really want to tackle is getting rid of the stigma. So we've got our new action plan. It's backed by £170 million. So this is actual action.

And targeted on, you know, more testing and reducing stigma and making sure that our services can actually meet the needs of the people that need. them. What's the action plan then? So what's different from today? Okay. I mean, one of the biggest things that we've put in place, which we've never had before, we've got the very first plan for retention and re-engagement. So there are a number of people that may get, they may get their diagnosis and find their HIV positive. But for one reason or another, they fall out of care. And for, you know, I've spoken to women who say it's the stigma. It's the difficulty being able to access the services, the stigma in their communities. So, really focusing on re-engaging people that have been previously lost to care,

including women, is going to be a really core tenant of this action plan. Because what we need to do and what our ambition is, is to stop new transmissions by 2030. And to do that, we really need to make sure that we're reaching all the parts of the community to make sure that people can access the treatment and the services. Because treatment, we've come such a long way. You know, treatment now means that if you're HIV positive, you can live a relatively normal life with a normal lifespan and a very healthy one.

And you can also take, you know, medication that means that you can't pass on the virus to others. Access to PrEP is much broader than it used to be, but we need to massively increase access to PrEP, particularly for women. So we estimate that around fewer than half the women that would benefit from taking PrEP are actually accessing PrEP at the moment. So we need to make sure that these services are accessible and that people can get them. And PrEP is something that you would take, why? What is it? So PrEP is a drug that prevents somebody from, well, significantly reduces to the point of preventing somebody from contracting HIV.

So if you, maybe your partner is HIV positive. They might be on medication. It makes the virus undetectable, which is great. But you can also take PrEP to also like increase your protection and prevent you from contracting HIV. So it's a drug that people use, particularly if they have a partner that's HIV positive, or they have a lifestyle that puts them at greater risk. Ellie, let's bring you in now. Thanks so much for joining us. You were diagnosed in 2018 at the age of 21. What's your story? Yeah, so back in 2018, I've done a placement year for university, so I was about to go back to my final year. It was kind of, if I'm honest, having the best time. I was in a long-time relationship. I was, because I was moving back to go to university, we were going to go long distance. and I kind of felt like it was going to fall apart.

So I made the decision to just order a home test, had no symptoms. So I wasn't expecting it to come back as having anything positive. So obviously two weeks later, it was a bit of a shock to be told that I was HIV positive. How did that, I mean, how did you process that? You've been in a long-term relationship. Yeah.

Do you know what? I always say this. I must have been taught about HIV at school, but I have no knowledge of it. I didn't know that the medication existed. I didn't know all these kind of encouraging. incredible advancements that you could take one pill a day. And not only could your health be completely fine, but you could also never pass it on. So for the first probably two to three years,

I was really scared because I didn't know what my life was going to look like. And you'd confided in a friend, hadn't you? And then that friend did not keep your confidence. That must have been devastating whilst you were at uni. Yeah. So I'd only told a couple of people and I did say to them like, please don't pass this on. I want this to be confidential. I kind of need my own time to deal with this. And at the end of university, it did come out that in fact, basically the whole of the uni did know I was HIV positive. And they weren't saying great things. It was just a lot of pity of how is she okay, what is going on. And I think that's the reason I kind of stood up to be an activist is because someone had to set the record straight in terms of, I am fine. I do now live a

perfectly happy, healthy, vibrant life. And there is a life after a diagnosis. How did you take that information then and educate yourself? You have the diagnosis. Where did you go with it from there? I was so fortunate. So, like, the NHS have been incredible for my care. They have given me absolutely every bit of tall information, education that I needed to get to where I had to be. And then on top of that, I think you just need a bit of time to process it

because, I mean, I wasn't born in the 80s. I was only born in the 90s, but a lot of that stigma had carried through. I still had all of these prejudices about HIV and what it meant. And you kind of have to rewire your own brain against all. of it? Yeah. And so did you think it couldn't have happened to me? I'm not in that bracket. Why am I HIV positive? A hundred percent. And this is, I think, one of the biggest things that action plan hopefully will help us give the accessibility of testing. It can happen to anyone.

You only need one encounter of sex to be HIV positive. It doesn't have to be a certain type of person. There's a lot of stigmas around it's a gay disease or it doesn't happen to women. All of these are faults. And the important thing we need to focus on now is getting getting everybody tested. And seeing it as routine is, you don't go to the dentist because you have a cavity, you go because you want to check up. And we should be doing the same with HIV testing. We don't just wait until we've got symptoms. You just do it as a precautionary measure. So a question about you, Ashley, Dalton, is that how are you going to change that? Where can people go to get the information to get tested? Are you rolling it out

into different settings? Yeah, absolutely. So we're going to be launching an awareness campaign and particularly targeted at those communities that perhaps have not heard those messages before, particularly women and young people. And also we're making it much, much easier to get an HIV test. So we're currently trialing, being able to order your HIV test on the NHS app, get it sent to your home, you send it off and you get the results back to your phone. I mean, you know, you don't have to go into a particular clinic. You don't have to do this publicly. So, you know, helping people do that, get access to the tests at home so that we can really identify. Because once we identify people that are HIV positive, then their

treatment not only can extend and improve their quality of life, but it protects other people as well. And that's really important. And access to prep, for example. You can get that in sexual health clinics. But is that a place that many heterosexual women would go to? I don't know. Where else you may be offering that? exploring what we can do with prep as well. I mean, there's a couple of things. We've also recently, there's been launched an injectable prep, which rather than a tablet that you take regularly is an injection that lasts for two months.

So we're exploring how we can make that more accessible. But also doing other things to support. I mean, what Ellie really highlighted was that, particularly amongst women, people don't think that this is necessarily an issue for them. So we want to increase awareness around that. But we're also doing a lot more to support women that are HIV positive. So we're working with local. systems to make sure that they get gender-specific care, particularly relevant at

menopause, because if you're HIV-positive, you can have particular complications at menopause. And also, for the first time ever, we are making available for women who are HIV-positive and have a baby, and you give birth, we're making it possible for them to get free formula milk and sterilising equipment to help protect themselves and their baby. So some really new things that we've never done before that are going to particularly, we hope, help get us to that ambition of no new transmissions by 2030. Ellie, you've become this incredible advocate for people kind of learning about this. You've got a TikTok account.

You're doing all of that. How do you think you could have been reached? Because I guess you have to go back and go where I was in my life and my age and what I was doing, where would I have got that message that would have made me stop and think? Do you know what? It's such a good question. And I do a lot of work on this of normalising the conversation of HIV, particularly in women. and a lot of those conversations can happen in GP appointments when you're going for contraceptive,

for example, it's a conversation that is already centred around sex. So it wouldn't be that weird to have bring up the conversation of HIV and other SCIs. Things like smear appointments, it would be great if we can have, again, the conversation brought up, again, is already a sex-related topic. So I think it's just getting really that mindset into as many healthcare settings as we can to just bring it up because I think the more we talk about it and the more it is normalized, the more we will encourage testing and hopefully break down some of that stigma.

And for anybody listening to this who's fearful, who may think they may be you, but they're scared about going to get a test, they don't want to face what might be their new reality. What would you say to them? I guess I always say this. Everything begins at that test. So whether it's a negative result

and you know your status, you can go on to kind of be in control of your sexual health, or it's a positive result. And all you're going to do is get on medication that is going to prolong and save your life, life and also doesn't change anything. HOV does not have to mean that your life is over or it's this big catastrophe that I think people fear it is.

I say it's now I've turned it into one of the best things that's ever happened to me. It can still be just as normal and joyous and your life can be just the same afterwards. I guess you would concur with that. Absolutely. And one of the key things that we've put in the plan is training and support for GPs so that they're more aware of the issues and more able to have those conversations because it is so important. Whilst we have you with us, Ashley Dalton, you've spoken publicly about living with stage four cancer. You now have this huge brief, which we're very grateful for, but that's

a massive job. How are you coping? Well, you know, I mean, this is my job. It's such a privilege. It's an absolute privilege for me. You know, I got my stage four metastatic breast cancer diagnosis last summer and it was really important for me that I carry on working as much as I can this is really important to me and the fact that the Prime Minister then asked me to become the public health minister and write the National Cancer Plan

after I'd been diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer what a privilege and I'm so I'm so proud actually that I'm able to put patients' voices right at the very heart of the National Cancer Plan and at the very head of it And so there's going to be, we're announcing the National Cancer Plan next year, early next year.

There's going to be lots of the new stuff in there. And, you know, we're all busy. I'm on treatment. A bit like Ellie was saying, you know, I mean, I have an incurable disease, but I'm on treatment. I'm responding well to treatment. I'm managing my work. And, you know, when I was first diagnosed, people were saying, oh, well, this is how you give it work. And these are the benefits that you can claim.

And I was like, but we haven't even, I haven't even gone. a treatment plan yet we've not you know you don't really know what we're dealing with and it was like oh go home take up crafting you know and I would say no you know for too often we write people off with incurable disease and we've got to stop doing that

and so I'm really proud that I can you know be an example of someone that's saying do you know what I'm not written off I've still got an awful lot to bring and whilst I can do that I'm going to keep doing the thing that gives my life purpose and meaning and is my passion why would I want to give that up and I love I

saw you talk about this, that when you got that diagnosis, you went home and with your family, you just chanted the word cancer over and over again. Tell us why. Yeah, that was when I got my primary diagnosis. That was 12 years ago now. My daughter was 14 at the time. And it became obvious to me that when we were trying to talk about it, cancer is a scary word. And I said, look, we're going to have to talk about this. And if we're going to talk about it effectively, we've got to stop being scared of saying the word cancer. So we all just start, I said, come on, we're going to chant it. And we all say, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, to try and take some of the fear.

Because the biggest power that cancer has is that fear of it. So we thought, let's get rid of that. We're going to look you in the eye and we're going to deal with this. And we're not going to be afraid to say your name. Well, you've both dispelled a lot of fear on women's hour this morning. So thank you both for joining us. Good luck with the plan. Thank you.

It's fantastic to have you both on, Ashley Dalton. And you also heard Ellie Harrison there talking to us this morning. Thank you both for coming in. Really appreciate it. Now, I want to tell you about a new podcast, a new BBC podcast called Send in the Spotlight. Presented by Women's Hour's very own newly McGovern. It aims to reimagine support for special educational needs, a system widely considered to be broken.

Put simply, demand is outstripping supply, and too many children are being left without the support they need or having to go to school far away from home. Now, as the government embarks on an overhaul of the SEND system in England, Nula speaks to families, teachers, experts and decision makers and asks, how can every child learn and thrive? Featuring high-profile parents, including Anna Maxwell Martin and Kelly Bright, expect straight talk, sharp insight and practical advice.

So it's called Send in the Spotlight, and you can find it on BBC Sound. And whilst you're there, why not subscribe, so you never miss an episode. And of course, if you want to get in touch on this or anything else, you can text us on 84844. Text will be charged at your standard message rate. On social media, it is at BBC Woman's Hour or email us through our website. Now, let's talk about the boom in no and low alcohol drinks on supermarket shelves. A new survey from the University of Plymouth has been talking to it. expectant mothers about their relationship with these drinks and their understanding of what

constitutes a safe percentage. Seventy-two percent of women surveyed viewed them as a good alternative to alcohol, but that there was a lot of uncertainty and guesswork over what the percentages of alcohol in these no and low versions actually mean. Well, joining me now to discuss the findings is Dr. Kate Maslin. Senior Research Fellow in Maternal and Child Health School of Nursing and Midwifery at Plymouth University and project lead on the study. Welcome to the program. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on. So tell us, let's talk through the findings, first of all. Who did you talk to and what did you ask? Okay, so we surveyed anyone who had been pregnant in the last year or who was currently pregnant in the UK. We undertook this survey in

February. It was a nationwide survey. We recruited to women online. And we wanted to find out all about their understanding, perception and habits around no and low drinks. Okay. And what did they tell you? Were they completely clear on what they could have, what they were consuming? So what we found was that, as you said, it was about 70% of recently pregnant or currently pregnant women had consumed no or low drinks during pregnancy. There was a lot of confusion around the thresholds. So in the UK, anything that is up to 0.05% is called alcohol free. And then anything between 0.05 up to 1.2% of alcohol

is considered low alcohol. And there was a lot of confusion around these thresholds in terms of what was safe, what was thought to be acceptable. And particularly, we found that those who had consumed alcohol at increasing risk levels before pregnancy, so the slightly higher consumers of alcohol pre-pregnancy, were more likely to use these drinks. So were people consuming them thinking there's nothing in this

when there actually was? I don't think that's the thing. I think there's two distinct categories and that's by legislation. So the alcohol free drinks, people were fairly comfortable with drinking them but it was the low alcohol drinks. People had a little bit more trepidation about and a little bit more concerns about the safety of them during pregnancy.

So what do you think would help clear out that confusion? I think better labelling would help so that when people look at the label of a drink, it's quite clear what's in them. I think there's a bit of confusion around the branding because often the branding is very similar across the alcohol containing and the alcohol free and the low alcohol drinks. People also told us that they found it confusing in supermarkets, for example, where they're all muddled up on the same shelf, so some supermarkets were better at separating the drinks. The other thing that came through quite strongly was where people got the air information from.

So obviously this is a very fast-moving consumer trend and the advice from from the NHS and from healthcare professionals hasn't quite kept up with that. So we have very, very clear advice from the World Health Organization and the NHS that there is no known safe level of alcohol in pregnancy, but actually whether these no and low drinks should be consumed or how often they should be consumed

or who might benefit from consuming them is a little bit more unclear. And when they asked for that advice, when you ask them about the advice they were given, what did they tell you? People were sourcing this information themselves online. basically. So they were going online and using social media, looking

up information on websites, trying to find out their information in that way. Okay, so I know clearer labelling, we've touched on that. Do you think that is enough or do you think stronger regulation is needed? Because obviously, you know, you go into a supermarket and they're kind of all muddled in with the alcohol.

That's not very clear, is it? No, but I mean, I guess obviously this research is about pregnant women, but obviously the rest of the population, some people might have a reason for choosing the lower alcohol. So I'm not saying that at all, that there has to be that element of choice and people choosing what they want to consume and their perception of risk and so on. Yeah. So what would be your top three if you want to sort of set out a clearer path for pregnant women and what

they should consume and how they should consume it? I think there needs to be clearer labeling between the alcohol free and the low alcohol. I think that where they're, how they're marketed and advertise and where they're placed within supermarkets and I think kind of better guidelines for a health professional so that when alcohol is mentioned also these these drinks should be mentioned as well because people are consuming them people are buying them they're in pubs they're in restaurants they're there so I think just if people can have I think more consistent advice yeah so to just just sort of put people's minds at rest who are listening to this and are pregnant what would you say to them what would be the safest way of exploring this whole territory whilst pregnant

I think it's important that people are informed that they look at the research on WhatsApp themselves. This study was funded by Alcohol Change UK so that's the charity behind it. So I think their website is a really good source of information. That would be my advice to look at that website. Fantastic. Listen, thank you so much for coming on Women's Out this morning.

That is Dr. Kate Maslin. Good to have you on the program now. I'm going to tell you about something we are asking for your, help with. It is the 1st of December today. Many people, as Santa Maron just mentioned, put their Christmas trees up at the weekend. For our Christmas Day program here on Women's Hour, we are looking at the importance of Christmas traditions, and we would love to hear what yours is. Perhaps you always take a walk on Christmas morning, or there is a particular game. You have to play. Maybe it's a certain food on the plate that symbolizes Christmas for your family, but makes no sense to

anyone else. And as friendship groups or friends must become a lot more popular, which traditions have survived and flourished in these new groups? You can contact the program in the usual way. You can text 84844 on social media. We are at BBC Women's Hour and you can email us through our website or you can send a WhatsApp message or a voice note using the number 0-3700-100-44. for really looking forward to hearing from you on that. Now, joining me next in the studio is filmmaker. She Jinxu, her debut solo feature film, left-handed girl, is set against the vibrant backdrop

of the night markets in Taiwan's capital Taipei. It explores the lives of working-class Taiwanese women telling the story of single mother Shufan and her two daughters who moved to the city to open a food hall, the youngest daughter, I Ching, utterly charmingly played by six-year-old Nina Faye, is left-handed, and her left-handedness is a central plot device. It is the devil's hand, her grandfather says. So let's start there with Xi Jinping Su, who joins us in the studio. Welcome to Woman's Hour. Hello. It's a fantastic

movie. I absolutely loved it. You had me crying on a packed commuter train yesterday. Let's talk about the left-handedness. It's a Taiwanese superstition that being left-handed it is some kind of negative force. I understand you have some personal experience of that. Yes, that's actually, when I was in high school, my grandfather saw me use knife with my left hand. And he told me, he scolded me. He said, left hand is devil's hand.

And then he asked me, never used my left hand. So that was a quiet memory that I remember for a long time. And at a time, I wasn't even left-handed because I got corrected when I was in kindergarten very, very early on. Oh, right? So you were forced to write with your right hand? Yes. And but still use knives and scissors and holding microphone, you know, holding wine glasses with my left hand

because my body still remembers that. So it's a very personal story that underpins this film. Let's go to Taipei. You grew up there. Was becoming a filmmaker on your radar? No, actually. I wasn't even know I could be a filmmaker when I was young. Not until I went to New York and I went to get my master degree in media studies where I met Sean Baker in the editing room and we became friends and started talking about movies and started watching all the movies together.

And that's when I, you know, realized, oh, it's possible to make films. Yeah, Sean Baker, of course, who directed Anora and bagged a brace of Oscars last year. We'll get on to that in a moment. But let's talk about your movie. you plunged the viewer into this sort of technicolored world of the Taipei night market. As I say, you grew up there. How much of an ambition was it for you to make a film in your home country and to illustrate it in this way?

Well, it was such a big project for me because I made film in US for almost 25 years. And left-handed girl is actually the very first idea I told Sean. about. I wanted to make a movie in Taiwan and as a left-handed, left-handed girl as the character. So, you know, going back to Taiwan and finally make this film after 25 years, that it's like a dream come true. Yeah. I mean, it's such an incredible world. I mean, I've never been there, but I feel like I have now, having watched this movie. I mean, here you can get anything from an incredible looking bowl of noodles to a sort of life-changing phone charger. Anything you need, you can buy. in these markets and there's a real sense that you create in this film of it being an extended

family everybody no one's got much money but everybody's helping one another out is that is that something you've always felt there oh yeah your night market is basically like a big is like a big family as a small community so when i you know when we first found this night market in 2010 we we actually you know we shan we went there to write a script and we ran into this Tonghua Night Market where in the film, we ran into this little girl who looked just like Yijing in the film and she ran around just by herself, you know, so we follow her and back to her mother's noodles then and then I make friends with them and realize this whole, this whole night market is basically like a big family. Everybody knows her and

everybody knows each other. They help each other. It's a wonderful community. It's incredible to see because that's the thing, you see this young, young child just taking off around this market on her own and being completely safe. It's sort of jarring it away because as a viewer, you're always thinking, is she going to be okay? But it's how you illustrate that family feel. And that's the reality. Yes, I think, you know, to this day, you know, when we shot the film in Taipei in 2022, we actually still see young kids, you know, in the market because their parents, are running the business in the market. So they kind of had to have the kids there with them.

So you see those kids just kind of play together. They run around freely. Yeah, serving the food and all kinds of things. The cinematography is absolutely stunning. The colors, the vibrancy, this sort of beautiful chaos of the night market. Tell us about how you filmed it. You had to film a lot of it on mobile phones, I understand. And you describe it as a guerrilla style technique of filming.

Is this because everybody got interested in what you were doing? Yeah. And you couldn't really film it in a naturalistic way anymore. Yeah, that's the only way we can film in the real night market because, you know, everybody using iPhone this day to shoot. So when we're filming the night market, people didn't even see us filming. Yeah. Yeah, incredible. It really, really is.

It's very realistic. We'll just let you. Have you got a glass of water over there? Do you need a glass of water? We'll get you a glass of water brought in. So that's why it's so authentic because you're actually, it's really going on in real time all around. Let's talk about the women who thread through this story, the three central women in the film,

a mother who's a single parent and two daughters working class struggling against the weight of cultural traditions. Why is it important to tell that story? Well, I think just through this 10 years before I made the film, it's through my observation about Taiwan because I go back there every year and I also visit this family every day. year. And I realized

they are actually struggling in like economy because they couldn't really live in the night market and make enough money because all the money is, you know, live into their male

siblings. So that's what I see. And this might be something that's, it was surprising to me, but there are these women who are struggling and the sisters and there's a lot of infighting about who gets what who gets what support. However, there is a son who seems to get a free pass.

And that sort of gender disparity is still something that's very current. Well, at least it's my experience in my family. And I see that. Like my mom has five sisters and one brother. And everything just left it to the brother when my grandparents pass away. So how important was it for you then to, did those limitations shape you? Because clearly here you are

and you're a director and you left the country. But do you think if you'd stayed it would have been a different outcome? Yeah, I can imagine if I stay in Taiwan. I don't know what I would be doing, but definitely, you know, how I grew up, shape who I am.

Even I don't want to admit or I tried to shake it off, but I think it's still in me. Yeah. And I'm trying very hard to tell myself I can be whatever I want to, you know, without like, whatever my grandfather told me when I was young or, you know, how my other, my parents or my, you know, other relatives told me, like being a girl, you have to be a certain way.

So I tried to shake that all off. But, you know, unfortunately, that's part of me, too. How does that show up in your day-to-day life then? How do you still have to tell yourself or talk yourself around? Well, I think just every little detail, you know, when I get something, like, especially when I go back to Taiwan or even I talk to my mom, you know, she will look at me and see, like, I have a darker skin, so she will ask me, like, oh, you know, you should, like, put some long sleeve clothes in the summer so you don't get 10, you know, stuff like that, just everyday life things. Yeah, these women in your, and they're such relatable characters, they've got very, very tough life. lives, but they have their own agency, even though they're working in this pretty sexist framework of Taiwanese culture. Why was it important to portray those women? It's tough, but they do prevail. Well, I think that's just life, you know. That's what I see all the women. They are fighting. They're struggling. But they still remember to smile. They still

remember to laugh little things in their life, you know, keep a positive mindset. So I think that's how they survive. Yeah, and you also talk about it being a film about cultural secrecy amongst women across the generations. No spoilers here. But essentially it's about saving face within Taiwanese culture.

I want to know, why is that just a female burden, do you think? Because it seems to be that's what you're saying in the movie. Well, I think because a lot of times female, they are the real people who's running the family. You know, a lot of times men just go out and make money and they come home, they just relax and they don't really do much at home, but women, they are the ones

who kind of pass down the traditions and how they run the family, how, you know, they are basically the gatekeepers in a family. So I think for them, you know, that's their responsibility to kind of keep this family together and keep the face and, you know, make sure everybody looks great in a family. So your message in this film then,

what do you hope the next generation or this generation of Taiwan, these women take from it? I mean, will it be shown in Taiwan? Yeah, it is showing in Taiwan right now, actually. We have a theatrical release started October 31st and we're still in theater. And I really hope people watch this film. They will feel they are seeing, you know, because in Taiwan, in a lot of Asian society, they really focus on conformity. You are not allowed to be different. You have to be like other people. So I hope people watch this film. They feel seen. They feel like they feel like they can be being themselves. They can be brave and break out, you know, ignore the noises around them

and ignore the outdated traditions and create your own fairness, you know, the tradition that's good for everybody. Well, you've certainly done this in this movie. And we have to say left-handed girl premiered can and has been selected for Taiwan's entry for Best International Feature at the Oscars. How does that feel? I feel really, really proud. You know, I really want this film. This film is almost like a love letter to Taiwan because that's how I put, you know, over this 20 years of observation of Taiwan, I wanted to, I want to, the world see Taiwan. I wanted to, you know, how Taiwan is, how beautiful and how warm people are, you know, everything about Taiwan. You certainly get that across in this movie. Thank you so much for coming in to join us.

She Ching-Zoo. And Left-Handed Girl is out now on Netflix. Best of Luck at the Oscars as well. That is it from Woman's Hour today. Tomorrow, Nula is going to be joined by Pitya Suntunegnakit, who is known as Chef Pam, the first Asian woman to be named as the world's best female chef. Join Nula tomorrow. That's all from today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time. From BBC Radio 4, a near-future murder mystery in the remotest possible location. When I grow up, I want to live on Mars. Mars, 2048, the first settlers, and the third. unexplained death. What do you mean you don't know how he died? Can Rita and Jazz solve the murder, or will the murderer find them first?

How much is a room worth? A room full of air. I'm afraid, Mr. Hickson, the price is rather high. It may even cost you your life. Listen to Murder on Mars, first on BBC Sound.