Woman's Hour - France's mass drugging case, Olympian Jade Jones, Air pollution research

Episode Date: August 19, 2026

A senior French civil servant stands accused of drugging hundreds of women. Police say Christian Nègre kept a spreadsheet documenting what he described as his ‘experiments’ in which he forced them to wet themselves. They believe he drugged as many as 248 women. But more than seven years after Nègre was formally charged, no trial date has been set. For Woman’s Hour and BBC Global Women, Nuala McGovern spoke to one of the women affected, who says the delays to justice have left her feeling victimised for a second time.Within months of what was to be her last Olympic Games, double Olympic taekwondo champion Jade Jones decided it was time to take her career in a new direction. Last year, despite having never thrown a punch, she turned to boxing and, after just eight weeks of training, set herself the ambitious goal of becoming a world champion in another sport. She discusses her career pivot, what prompted her to start again, and how it feels to go from reaching the pinnacle of one sport to starting all over again in another.Queen Camilla has spoken for the first time about the pressure of keeping King Charles' cancer diagnosis secret in the early stages of treatment. In a video to mark the 30th anniversary of Maggie's cancer charity, the Queen, who is president of the charity, shared how difficult it was to avoid discussing her husband's treatment while on an official engagement with cancer patients and their families. Karen Verrill, Centre Head of Maggie's in Newcastle, who is also a specialist cancer nurse, advises how to navigate conversations about cancer, or - if you're supporting a partner - feeling that it isn't your story to tell. Renowned for its night clubs and rave culture - during the 1990s there was one party famous for being the wildest in Ibiza – Manumission. Created by a British couple who forged their life on the island, while promoting and performing in the events, they’ve now written a book to immortalise this time in Ibiza’s club history, and their lives. The book is called The Motel: High Times in 90s Ibiza and the club’s promoter, performer and mastermind, Claire Manumission, joins Nuala.Young children whose lung development has been stunted by pollution can recover when pollution levels drop, according to a new research study. Campaigner Rosamund Adoo-Kissi-Debrah’s daughter Ella was the first person in the UK to have pollution listed as a cause of death after she died from an asthma attack. She explains what the research means to her and what she still wants to see when it comes to cleaner air for children.Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Your sales order says one thing. Your inventory says another. Your spreadsheet says, good luck. Odu brings your business together on a single platform, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing. Visit Odu.com to book a demo. It's O'Dbolo.com. Hello, this is Newellamoghren, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome. There is a national debate in France at the moment about chemical submission,

the use of drugs to perpetrate a crime or misdemeanor against another person. And we are familiar with many of the disturbing stories that have hit the headlines on this issue. But there is one story that has gone largely untold that we will bring you today. Almost 250 women alleged that a French civil servant drugged them with diuretics during job interviews some over a decade ago. But they say they are still waiting for justice. We're going to hear from one woman who is at the centre of this story, Mary Alene this hour. Also, Jade Jones is synonymous with Olympic gold in taekwondo for Team GB.

But instead of retirement, she's picked up boxing gloves and is stepping into the ring looking for world domination. We're going to ask why. Also today, we're going back to 1990s of Aetha and clubbing culture with a woman who led one of the wildest nightclub. Clare, Manumission will be here. Also, Rosamund Ducy-Debra, a prominent campaigner, says she is over the moon, as a study shows a significant improvement in children's lung recovery in ultra-low emission zones.

She will also be with us this hour and we'll discuss what has been found. Plus, how to navigate a partner's cancer diagnosis. Queen Camilla has spoken for the first time about the pressure of keeping King Charles III's cancer diagnosis secret in the early stages of treatment. Today, we'd like to hear your stories on how you supported your partner through cancer and whether you were also able to find support for yourself during that time. So to get in touch, you can text the program, that number 84844. On social media, we're at BBC Woman's Hour, or you can email us through our website

for a WhatsApp message or a voice note. The number is 0-3-700-100-444. And another way. On most smart speakers, you can say Alexa, ask BBC sounds to send a comment. So we'd love you to get in touch. We'd love to hear your stories. Please do this hour. But let me begin with that story from France,

where a former senior civil servant stands accused of drugging hundreds of women with diuretics. Police say Christian Negre kept a spreadsheet documenting what he described as his experiments, in which he forced them to wet themselves. They believe he drugged as many as 248 women. But more than seven years after Nugre was formally charged, no trial date has been set. In a collaboration with BBC's Global Women, I spoke to one of the women affected,

Maria Lenn Bryce in Strasbourg, who says the delays to justice have left her feeling victimised for a second time. I'm on my way to the top floor of a flat in Strasbourg. and I'm going to meet a woman, Mary Ellen, who has the most extraordinary story. It is also one that is distressing. There are details, intimate, sensitive details that we want to talk about openly, but we need privacy to do that because this is a story that you may not have heard before.

Mary Alain, bonjour, enchanté. Thank you for doing this. May I ask you, Marieland, how did you first come to meet Mr. Neg? I met Christian Negre during a job interview in February 2016. I sent an unsolicited application to the Ministry of Culture. He welcomed me into his office. He offered me a drink and the interview started off like a fairly standard interview. But I could also see he was on his phone. Then quite abruptly he interrupted me. Put your coat on. We're going to go outside, he said. I can tell you're stressed, so I think that if we walk, your thoughts will loosen up.

You'll be much more relaxed. So I put on my coat. It was February. It was still quite cold in Strasbourg at that time. And we set off for a walk. I've come down to the canal with Marie Helene. The canal is wide and green, and the leaves of a horse chestnut. tree draped down into the water, providing some much-needed shade on this very hot day.

This beautiful setting, however, is in stark contrast to the dreadful experience that Marie Alene went through just close to here. I know being here probably brings back bad memories. What do you remember from when you were here the last time? We started walking along the canal of Lille in Strasbourg, and he kept. asking me questions. We walked for quite a long time. We were moving further and further away from the building. At some point, I felt I needed to go to the loo. As we walked, the urge was getting more and more urgent and impossible to hold back. I started to get stomach pains. I told him I needed

a quick break, that I needed to go to the loo. He told me there were public toilets nearby, But I was really starting to suffer, physical suffering, to the point where I was white, pale, with tears running down my face. Then the need was so urgent and strong that I couldn't hold it in. And I completely soaked my dress by wetting myself. And the urge was so strong that, in fact, even after I'd wet myself, I still felt the need to we. That's when he said to me, well, listen, I'll hide you behind my jacket. I looked around me. I couldn't get out of people's sight, couldn't move away to hide.

So he took his jacket and he pressed himself up against me and I had another long wee. Back at the apartment, Maria Lenn told me what happened next? I was terribly embarrassed that he'd hidden me like that behind his jacket with that physical closeness. We set off again, but I didn't go back inside the beach. building. I just wanted to get away as quickly as possible. I was a very new mum. I thought maybe it's connected to the after effects of giving birth. I'd had a cup of tea that morning, so I thought maybe I shouldn't have had that tea before coming to this appointment. I went back to the friend's place where I was staying. I had a shower straight away. I showed for ages. Then I got changed. After that, I went back to

my baby and life just carried on. I asked Maria Lenn when she came to believe that she had been drugged. Three years after that interview, I had got on with my life. I moved house. I'd barely settled into my new flat when I received a letter saying, Criminal Investigation Department, we're trying to get in touch with you in connection with a case that concerns you. And in brackets, Christian Negre.

So I rang them back, I think the next day, and spoke to the sergeant who at that point was in charge of the case. The only thing I can tell you, she said, is that you're not responsible for anything. That's all I can say to you over the phone. It was all premeditated, and we need to meet, and you'll almost certainly be led to file a complaint. I met her, I told her everything. And then she said, I'm going to explain. This man, when you were rife for the interview, served you a hot drink in which he'd slip diuretics, medicines that make you need to urinate.

You're not the only victim. Right now, there are about 50 of you, but we think there are many, many more. And then she asked me, were you aware that Mr. Nekle was conducting an experiment on you? Had he told you he was conducting an experiment? I said, well, no, not at all. Then she told me they'd found an Excel spreadsheet on his computer called Experiment P, in which he recorded the candidate's arrival times for job interviews, the time the drug was administered,

and how the person managed to hold on for how long, a description of the urine stream and a description of their underwear. Then she brought out a folder, a really big white, folder. She turned the pages and thank goodness I was sitting down. I watched them flick paths and I saw photos, photos of women's legs taken under the table. And she stops at one point and says, do you recognize yourself? When he was on his phone at the start of the interview, he was taking the opportunity to put his phone under the table and take photos of my legs. Christiane Nogre was sacked by the Ministry of Culture

after being caught allegedly taking a photo of a woman under a table. He's since been charged with offences including administering harmful substances and sexual assault. He's currently awaiting trial. The brightly coloured department of Florian Vault opens onto the most impressive views across Paris. The cupola of the pantheon stands out in the distance. Florian Vault is a lawyer with Fondacion de fan.

who are helping some of the women involved. So since 2019, we've been providing legal supports to victims. At the beginning, there were only 10 asking for our support, and we have pro bono lawyers that help them having their rights in front of justice. And today, we have 50 victims that we provide legal support to. What are the challenges in bringing these cases to try and get justice for these women? Today, what the French justice has said to these women to hold the victim, today it's 248 victims that are known. They say, you are too many and we cannot cope and we cannot handle this.

Also, they didn't know they were victims, so it's also the realizations, the shock to discover from sometimes in the media and the national media that you've been a victim of chemical submissions. It's like a secondary victimization for them. After she filed her complaint with the French authorities, Marie-Alen tried to come to terms with what had happened. It has impacts on several levels. Afterwards, I felt quite alone, left carrying this whole story. On a family level, I think I'm also more worried about my children, and especially my daughter, than I ever was before.

This feeling of vulnerability, this idea that you can actually be attacked, drugged at any moment. Even now, I still have urinary problems and we're wondering whether it might also be a consequence of that poisoning. Before you leave the house, you go to the loo again and again, telling yourself, please don't let it happen again. So you no longer have the usual relationship with your body, but it's very difficult to establish a cause and effect link when you're a victim, but you don't realize it for years. So you can't actually. accurately accurately assess things in a way that would make it possible to join the dots. In any case, it's far too late.

It's trust in others and trust in yourself that have been damaged. While the case against Christian Negre remains untested in court, it is one of several high-profile cases about alleged drugging that has sparked a national debate in France, including the access women have to key scientific evidence that could prove crucial in prosecution. I've come to Garsh Hospital campus in a leafy suburb of Paris to meet with Professor Jean-Claude Alvarez.

Professor Alvarez is a toxicology expert, and I've come to his lab to find out just how effective tests are to prove diuretic drugging. Well, Professor Alvarez meets me in his white lab coat, and I asked him, how unusual is this case? Usually we have psychotropic drugs, which are used in DFSA, drug facilitated, sexual assault. And here you don't have a psychotropic drug which modify your behavior. I don't

look for duetics usually in case of DFSA. But now in France we are looking for juridic because we have some cases like this case. How can you test for a drug like this? We can test in blood or urine around 24 hours or one or two days. And after we can use hair because all the molecule we take are making a mark in your hair. And so sampling one month later, we can identify the substance, which was introduced one month before. One month before, so you test the hair,

you can see the substance. But after a month, can you see anything? Like if somebody came to you six months after being drugged with a diuretic? After it's more difficult because the growth of the hair is around one centimeter per month. The compound will not be at the drugged. same place in the difference here. And so it's more difficult to say to the courts, we are sure it was only one intake of the compound, you know? As Professor Alvarez points out, time is of the essence when gathering evidence in these types

of cases. So much time has passed that it's too late for Maria Lent. I asked her what she wants to happen next. What I'm hoping for, first of all, is for the trial to actually take place, because it's now been 10 years that I've been waiting, that we've been waiting. The trial will also maybe make it possible to get some information we're missing. The other thing, which for me is absolutely essential here, is that I hope that the sexual nature will be taken into account. In law, there are normally very specific elements that have to be highlighted for that to be recognized.

I was assaulted, I was drugged, poisoned, but for me, it's a sexual assault. And then there's being recognised as a victim. I hope we'll receive compensation that reflects the harm we suffered and that Mr. Negg will also receive the appropriate sentence for the act he may have committed. In light of those time constraints for testing, Professor Alvarez told me about a new trial that he's been working on, one that allows women to access toxicology testing directly through their doctor.

In just six months, 200 women have sought direct testing at this Paris lab. It's a pilot study since January 2026. Every woman who think she has been drugged, someone has introduced a drug in her drink, can see a doctor, not the court. And with a prescription, we can do the analysis. of blood, urine or her hair, and during the first six wounds, we have already more than 200 cases. So that means that there is an increase in the FSA, a drug facilitated sexual assault cases. This is terrible. As Professor Alvarez says, new cases of drug facilitated sexual assault

are being discovered all the time. For Maria Lenn, one of the most important reasons for speaking out is to help other women, women who don't know they are victims, and to recognize and understand what might have happened to them. It's important for me to speak out publicly because some of the press articles that came out right at the beginning of the case enabled some victims to recognize themselves as victims and to go and file complaints themselves. I think that in the world we live in, it's important to talk about sexist and sexual violence. I also think I probably need to talk about it too. I need people to know what happened to me, what happened to us. It's this little internal mechanism of telling yourself not to be ashamed

or to hide, whatever violence they've experienced and might encourage others to speak out. So yes, I think It's important for those reasons too. Whatever the outcome for the hundreds of women listed in the trial of Christian Negre, Florian Volt argues that the speed of the French justice system has already let them down. The trial will finally happen maybe in 27, but the French justice really took too long on this case. We don't have enough judges and we don't have enough investigators. So we just say to the women go and the clear. name a right in justice, and finally, their cases are dismissed because we don't have any means

to provide for evidence and to conduct proper investigations regarding sexual violence. That was Florian Volta of the French Fondacien de Fam. The BBC contacted Christian Negre's lawyer, but he declined to comment. The BBC also asked the French police, judiciary and government to respond to the criticism of their handling of the case, but they did not respond either. If you have been affected by any of the details shared in that story, support can be found on the BBC's Action Line website. And you can find the full film that I've made travelling to France to explore this case on YouTube and BBC iPlayer. Just search BBC Global Women.

Now, it is a week of golden girls for Women's Hour. We had the unstoppable Amy Hunt with her four goals in a week at the European Championships. but now let's turn to a woman with two Olympic goals for the martial art of taekwondo. Now for some, that might be enough to step off the mat and slip into retirement. But not Jade Jones. Instead, she has set her sights on world domination once again,

this time in the boxing ring. She joins me now to talk about this bold career pivot and her upcoming third fight next month. Great to have you with us, Jade. We'll come to boxing in just a moment, but I want to hear how your sporting career began. I understand your granddad took you to your first ever taekwondo class when you were just a little girl.

Yeah, I've just always loved martial arts and like I said, I was a cheeky, naughty, eight-year-old who kind of needed a focus and direction. And my granddad just took me down to the local club where I lived. I literally just become obsessed and hooked and absolutely fell in love with the sport. Well, fell in love with it and then went on to a church. achieve global domination. I mentioned the Olympic goals, 2012, again in 2016. What was it like to

experience that level of success? And your grandfather was able to watch that success. Yeah, honestly, it's hard to explain, to be honest. It's just euphoric. You know, you train your whole life and people don't realize what goes into, you know, an Olympic games and kind of winning an Olympics and when it all comes right on that one day, it is just unbelievable. It was, you know, the best feeling ever. Obviously, it'd be in London 2012. I was just 19. I think the youngest, Team GB gold medalist at the time. So it was just, I just did it so young. So I think since that point, I've just always kind of wanted that same high again. So that's probably why I'm here still chasing gold medals and belts. And we will get to that chase in just a moment. With the Olympic

titles. I know Paris 2024 didn't go the way you wanted it. There was an exit, a shock exit really, I suppose, in the first round. I'm just wondering how you come back from that mentally. It's hard sometimes when you kind of hit rock bottom in your own head. There's only

one way, you know, to go. And it's kind of to rebuild yourself to get stronger. And that's kind of what it did. You know, it did all go down the drain. And I was trying to become the first ever person. in Taekwondo history to win free gold medals. So when that kind of didn't happen,

I had to take a big look at myself, you know, what went wrong, who I am as a person. And yeah, I just didn't want to stay down for long. You know, that's not the kind of person I am and kind of just kept getting back up, clawed me way back up and just kept going. And it genuinely has made me a stronger, happier person,

which I can honestly say now, I'm kind of glad I lost that Olympics, because, again, I'm just such a different person. You know, it's so interesting. Some of the language you're using there is language I would use when it comes to boxing. Didn't stay down for long. Clawed their way back up, which brings me...

I've done this before. So you retired from Taekwondo. After a couple of months, you made this pivotal decision to take up boxing. Now, in a previous interview, Jade, you reference a very evocative quote, which is every athlete dies twice. I wasn't familiar with the concept.

I'm sure many of my listeners aren't. either. Explain it. I think people, again, don't realize, you know, sports people, you do reach the highest of highs. Like it's a very small niche, like for that Taekwondo Olympic gold. Every part of my day was for that Olympic gold, you know, what you, how you sleep, how you eat. Your mind is consumed with it. So, and then you reach the, the pinnacle of the sport. You're kind of at the top of the mountain, you know, you've won the Olympics, you're the best, the best. And then And then to just go in kind of normal mundane life, it's tough.

There's, you know, there's something missing. And I've always had that purpose, that drive, that direction, you know, like knowing exactly what you want and what you're going for. And like I said, all your day being evolved around that. So when it's missing, it's hard for athletes. You know, you don't kind of get the same buzz. You don't get the same motivation. So it really is tough.

And just two months of being retired, you know, I did feel lost. And it was hard. I'm sure. So, but you made it. decision that perhaps mightn't be the same that others decide to do. And that is to get into the ring. I'm wondering what it must have been like to be on top of your field to, you know, starting again. And was there always that interest or that love of boxing while you were competing in taekwondo? Yeah, that's what everybody was saying to me. Like, you know,

your two-time Olympic champion, you're kind of completed taekwondo. Like, just retire. Go ahead. off into the sunset, like enjoy your life kind of thing. But like I said, I just still had that it, still have that drive. My body, you know, even 33, but I still feel a young 33. And I've still got so much more to do. So yeah, it kind of just come out of nowhere. I thought, you know, I might try boxing. Kind of probably started as not a joke, but like a bit of a, oh, I'll try it. And then again, well, recently found out I've got ADHD, which explains a lot. As soon as I started, I was hooked on the improvement, hooked on just the whole thing of

entering the ring, you know, the fear of it's just you and that person, someone can get knocked out, like the thrill of it. And I just absolutely love to fight, love to train hard and love to try and become the best at something. Well, best at something. So, you know, just after two months of boxing training, you told the media, you want to become a world champion. Why do you say that? Is it accountability for yourself, like the way I love a deadline? Why are you saying that? Because it's, I mean, it's a tall order. Yeah, it was just to show

people to not be scared of failing and trying again. You know, like people do think, oh, you're 33. And I did kind of start to feel like that in taekwondo. You know, you're older now. You've kind of passed the line. Whereas, again, you know, on this growth journey, I've realized, no, you're literally as old as you're feeling, as old as you're telling. You're. You're old as you're telling. yourself and I just wanted to put it out there because yeah I don't know how good I'm going to be I could have got knocked out in the first fight but it was like look I'm doing this I've only just started and I'm not scared to fail so hopefully to show more people that you can start again and you can try something different and your life isn't over when you get to a certain age it can

start whenever you want it to start we love that message and I know there's a tiny bit of a glitch just on your line there I know you're on your way to training and that you've just stopped for a moment to have this conversation with us as we talk about your career pivot. How's your game face, Jade? Are you able to talk trash? To be fair, I enjoy it more than I thought. It was all new to me, you know, the first weigh-ins, the first press conference, but I'm getting more and more into it. It's nice to tell someone you're going to knock them out and then actually knock them out. Well, do you know, if we go to your first competitive match that was in March,

this year. You fought against the American reality TV star, Egypt, Chris, excuse me, and you did knock her out. And I'm wondering, how did that feel? It felt quite nice. I can't lie, yeah. I've obviously made for this sport.

But, no, it was just surreal, you know, I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know how good she was going to be. That's the crazy thing about misfits. But obviously, to knock her out to get the win, I was buzzing. And then my coach, after it was like Jade, like people don't have debuts like that,

that you don't like face plant someone and put them to sleep, you know, it doesn't really happen in women's boxing. So I think that showed me, you know, I've got the power, I've got the strength, and I just got to keep learning and improving. So misfits is the tournament that you were taking place in that you referenced there. But is there at all part of, in the back of your mind, are you worried about your opponent? I'm talking about health-wise, obviously, you know, getting punched,

to the point of being knocked out, is serious? Yeah, it is a very dangerous sport and the more stories that you hear of bad things happening and people going into comas and stuff, it is very scary and it makes you realise it's a brutal sport and it is a scary game and you don't play boxing, you know, as they say.

But it's kind of you versus them, everybody knows what they're going into and you've just got to train your very best and you've just got to protect yourself at all times. The sport hasn't always been available to women in amateur boxing. Women weren't permitted to fight at the Olympics until 2012, getting back to the Olympics. That's where Britain's Nicola Adams won the first ever female boxing gold. There's lots of people who have strong views out there against the sport,

some against women's boxing in particular. What would you say to them? I can understand, obviously, you know, it is a brutal sport and it is dangerous, but I don't know, my view, you can get knocked over crossing the street, like everyone has a choice of their own life. And if you've got the right training, the right people behind you, then you've got to try and stay safe as best as you can. So you have another match coming up in September.

Tell me what you're thinking, how you're looking at that. Yeah, so it's a really tough opponent. She's done a lot of martial arts background before, so it's going to be a tough fight. And this actually is for the title belt as well, the Miss Fitzworld Championship belt. So, no, just super excited to get back out there. I feel like this will show another level to my boxing skills.

You know, it'll give me a tougher fight. And just can't wait to keep showing what I'm about. I think she's known as the Hungarian hurricane. Sheena Bathory, who you will be up against in September. Thanks so much for spending some time with us, Jade. We'll be watching you closely. I appreciate that. Thank you for having me.

And Jade, one of the Golden Girls that we've found. on Women's Hour this week. If you'd like to listen back to the interview with Amy Hunt, you can do that a little earlier this week. Jay Jones there, who's looking for world domination in boxing. Growing businesses deal with the same problem. Too many tools, too much back and forth, and not enough time.

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It's O'DOO.com. Lots of you getting in touch. I was mentioning about cancer and supporting a partner through cancer. Here is one. I read about Queen Camilla's dilemma this morning and totally related to it. My husband has recently been diagnosed

for prostate cancer but doesn't want me to share this with our close friends. It's proving very difficult, and I'm ashamed to say I have told a few, but those who are miles away are not likely to meet up with him. His reasoning seems to be because he doesn't wish to be regarded as a victim and have people feel sorry for him. And also because as a freelancer, he doesn't wish to scupper any work opportunities, but I am finding this hard.

Relatives need support as well as the patient. I feel at bursting point. Well, thank you very much for sharing that with us this morning because you may have seen the headline this morning of Queen Camilla speaking for the first time about the pressure of keeping King Charles's cancer diagnosis secret in the early stages of treatment. There's a video to mark the 30th anniversary

of Maggie's cancer charity and the Queen, who's president of that charity, shared how difficult it was to avoid discussing her husband's treatment while on official engagements with cancer patients and their families. Now, as that listener does, many more, if you may be able to relate

to that feeling of being unsure how to navigate conversations about cancer or when you're supporting your partner, feeling that it's not your story to tell. So we have someone who can offer some advice on this. It's Karen Verald, centrehead of Maggie's in Newcastle, also a specialist cancer nurse. Good to have you with us this morning, Karen.

Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Very welcome. It's a pleasure. Your thoughts on Queen Camilla speaking out, as she did? I was quite bold over at Queen Camilla's honesty because it's difficult to speak. openly about how you feel when you're the relative, nearest and dearest, because people often try to not make it about them,

which of course is not what she was doing. Her speaking so openly about finding support and the need to talk will resonate with many, many, many people affected by cancer. And it gives huge encouragement to seek support and that it's okay to do this. People do need support when they are family members. you can't do it alone. Well, you know, this is the thing. I suppose people trying to figure out

where they might get a support and there's lots listening as we heard already and have a number of messages coming in. What is your help? What is your advice to help them navigate I suppose the approach on how to support a spouse or partner? Well, whoever you are

getting professional help is important. You know, people they don't share how they really feel with other family members because everybody's trying to protect each other

and we often get people coming into our centres and you'll have a couple come in or a family and they'll say, oh, I'm all right, he's the one having the treatment and then the person

who is having the treatment will say, oh but it's worse for her or him because they're trying to support me and they don't know what to do. And people, don't know what to do. They don't know how they can help. They feel

helpless, they feel guilty. They'll often say, I wish I could swap places and take all of this. But the relatives who are supporting someone with cancer have their own needs and their own psychological, emotional turmoil. And so need

help themselves to be able to help support the person who's having the treatment and got the diagnosis. And, you know, there are many organizations out there. who can help with this. And of course, the Queen was specifically speaking to our chief executive, Dame Laura,

about Maggie's centres. So you're talking, you know, reaching out for professional help. But I think, and we get to it immediately with that previous listener, that, you know, sometimes the person going through cancer wants a different approach than perhaps the supporting partner wants.

For example, that secrecy, not being able to tell somebody. What do you say in those situations? You mean not being able to tell someone when they know The person who has cancer doesn't want anybody to know The supporting partner is feeling fit to bursting As our listener putting, you know, wanting to express Yeah, and that is difficult because you've got to respect

the person's wishes who have actually got the treatment and got the cancer But I think talking together can also help because it is really hard to bottle it up. And as Her Majesty said, you know, it can feel like popping the cork. It's once that corks popped and then you can let it all out,

it's incredible how much better people feel. So get support together if that's the case. If you've got a relative who doesn't want to talk about it, try and get support as a couple, try and find somewhere where you can go to and get professional help together. And maybe, you know, that will enable both of you to find common ground,

but keeping things private isn't always the best. Some people are, you know, that's how they operate. They're really private, but it's not really, it's not good when you've got such a huge amount of thoughts going through your mind. Cancer brings huge turmoil. It brings lots of fear. And fear doesn't go away if you don't share it. It can really help to get support together.

That's interesting. So both if you go to a professional to speak about some of those fears if you don't want it in the public domain, for example. Here's another that came in. My husband died after four years of cancer treatment. After he died, a doctor from the local practice came to ask me if I was all right. I'm afraid I didn't react well to this. I wrote to the practice and pointed out that in the four traumatic years of my husband's illness, no doctor had ever asked me how I was or how I was coping. It was as if they only noticed me after he died. This is still a lot of. a bitter memory many years later. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's really tough. And that can happen. You know, the GP's surgery is practiced. Don't always know exactly what's going on.

They've got their day-to-day work that they're doing, but it's very, very tough for people when they feel ignored and then someone gets in touch when a person has passed away. What I will say is, again, there's still support. out there not necessarily via the GP. If you need support and your partner doesn't want that support,

get it from professionals because it's in confidence anyway. So you don't have to have permission, go somewhere where you can talk in private with a professional and no one else needs necessarily to know about that. And for the lady who, the listener who's raised that, she could still get support now, she could get support. from somewhere to help with what did or didn't happen and how she feels now because there is no time limit on, you know, when you don't need support, it can often feel worse when the person

has passed away and then you look back and realise that you didn't have the support yourself. So seek it now and, you know, step into a Maggie's Centre or ring up. Someone will help you. That's really interesting, Karen, and I think it'll be very helpful to people to think about that because as that listener says, it's a bitter memory now. And we're really sorry you went through that, but I think the thought of getting some help now and perhaps trying to process some of those feelings. The King's cancer diagnosis was revealed on the 5th of February 2024. Maggie's charity says it prompted a 12% increase in men contacting them with a cancer diagnosis. I suppose every time the Royals go public on an issue like this, it makes a difference.

Oh, it makes a huge difference. And, you know, we were all very sorry to hear about the King's diagnosis, of course, but it's raised so much awareness for so many people and highlights, you know, it's indiscriminate. It can happen to anybody. But whoever you are, you know, you need, you can't go it alone. And the king's, you know, disclosure of that has had a huge impact. And as you say, the increase in men in our centres has been huge because of if the king can need help, you know, any man can. So that's been incredible. And so. That's, so courageous of the king to, you know, let this be out there. There he is, you know, the king of England.

But he's like everybody else. He's also vulnerable and will also need support. And he's got the support of the Queen who has acknowledged that she also needs support. So it's incredible for everyone that he's done this. Karen Varel, thank you very much. Centrehead of Maggie's in Newcastle, who's also a specialist cancer nurse. More than two years after his diagnosis, the King is still receiving cancer treatment.

Buckingham Palace has reiterated that his health continues to move in a positive direction. The King has never disclosed the type of cancer he has, but has engaged widely with those treating and supporting cancer patients. Again, if you've been impacted by any of the issues discussed, you can find resources on the BBC Action Line website. 844, if you'd like to get in touch, and any of the issues that we're discussing this morning. But I want to turn to the sun-drenched Spanish Island off I'd.

Bita next. It is renowned for its nightclubs and rave culture. During the 1990s and early naughties, there was one party famous for being the wildest on the island. It was called manumission. Running from 94 to 2008, manumission took place on Mondays at the

Super Club privilege, which could hold up to 10,000 party people. So the manumission parties were legendary for being the most hedonistic, boundary pushing club nights in Ibitha. They included acrobatics, dancers, strippers, contortionists, and somewhat controversially live sex shows.

At its centre was a young British woman, Claire Davies, who became known as Claire Manumission. She ran the club with her partner, Mike. They lived on the island while creating, promoting and performing in the events. Now they've written a book to immortalise this time in Abitha's club history and their lives. The book is called The Motel, High Times in 90s, Abitha. And the club's promoter, performer and author, Claire Manumission, joins me now. Claire, you're so welcome to Women's Hour.

Hello. Thank you so much. happy to be here. Well, let's talk about manumission. Some will be very familiar with it. Others of the audience, perhaps less so. It did become one of the biggest, most talked about club nights in the world. More than a typical nightclub with a crowd facing the DJ. There was a lot more going on. What would a typical manumission party have entailed? So manumission was more, we directed it more like we were directing a film. So for us, it was a visual expression. It was, you know, it went through many different kind of metamorphosis.

It started off very raw with street performers. And then by the end, we were designing stage sets with the same Mark Fisher who designed U2 and Madonna's stages. So it went through a huge transformation. So performance art, theatre, a lot of different things going on. But the word manumission, Latin means. is freedom from slavery. Why that ethos? So actually Mike started the party himself when he was, he studied architecture at university,

but he decided to put his art into, not into architecture, but into everything else he did. And he was obsessed with personal freedom. And so he lived in New York, Paris, London. And when he decided he was going to do this club night, he looked for a name that represented the the kind of ethos, and he found the word manumission, and that expressed perfectly what he was looking for. And it started in a gay club in Manchester, so that also worked really well. And because I know there was a lot from gay culture

that you also, what would I say, were inspired by it to also bring to manumission. Why do you think the night became such a huge success? I don't know. I think it just touched many, many people, It was such a huge nightclub and the people that were there in Abitha in the 90s were, it was like a natural selection of people from all over the world. Most people had left their lives and their families and they'd landed on this like small,

quite unknown Mediterranean island. And so I just think it just, the word kind of spread throughout this audience. And then when the press kind of got hold of it, then it went kind of, yeah, then it. Because there was TV programs, etc. That also, I think I beat the uncovered, some might remember. But, you know, we'll have to get to, as I alluded at the top, that it did become famous for many things, including live sex shows. So there were shows featured professional adult entertainers,

but sometimes included you and your partner, Mike, performing together. And Manny will ask, why did you want to include sex in the parties? So Manny Mission was always kind of an expression. it was kind of us kicking against something and whether that was sex versus violence in the media or later against cloning or, you know, the banking system, anything that kind of disturbed us, we threw into our art and expressed that on stage.

The sexual element, yes, that came out of the gay scene and Mike used to go to these clubs, one called Kinkyki-Kilinky in London, and they would have performers doing kind of Lizard shows and he thought that was the kind of thing that Manu Mission needed. There was never any intention of us doing it ourselves. So what happened? I do outline that story in the book.

We were looking for a very famous performer called Otter when she was from New Orleans. But this is before mobile phones. So we put the word out through the club scene, the network, but there was no way of connecting her at that time. So a friend of us from Amsterdam in Ibiza, photographer, he said, well, he had a girlfriend in Amsterdam and she was beautiful and she would do anything. So he said, just fly her over. So long story short, we flew her over. We found some other performers to work with her, but she said she wouldn't perform with any of them, but she would perform with me.

And we had this kind of ethos that we wouldn't do anything. We wouldn't ask people to do things that we weren't prepared to do ourselves. and so began yeah so I found myself on stage but did you I mean there was some you were somewhat reluctant I think you described it allude to it a tiny bit there I think

but did you feel like at a woman, a young woman very young woman at the centre of such provocative scenes did you feel you had full control over the narrative I did actually and well you know Renata the other woman I was performing with I said to her

listen if I'm going to do this with me you were going to have to lead because, you know, I've never done this before. So she was in control, but I never felt out of control. And the interesting thing was the reaction after the performance. The gay scene was really kind of warm and thankful for me for like standing up for something that they really believed in. And even like straight girls were like, oh, I feel really powerful as a woman. having, you know, watched that performance.

And then generally, like, straight guys just stood back in awe. They were just, you know, kind of speechless. So it was really interesting for me to see that kind of, yeah, reaction of... That reaction that you had. A lot might find it hard to understand. I do understand in your book you talk about with Mike how violence you felt was so pervasive. Sex was an act of defiance just to put across a little bit,

of some of the ethos are thinking with that but I do some even with your explanation may still not understand why you may do something like that but I do, I know you are going to have

another manumission night that will be taking place in Ibitha and I saw the observer did ask you will there be a sex show you said you'll have to wait and see Mike said but it definitely won't be us why not?

I think I've done my my choose Yeah. So, yes, we're doing Le Weekend Manumission, and Mike's brother, Andy, he's got this gorgeous open-air venue called 528, and it's like the perfect place to bring manumission back to. It's outdoor. It's got five different stages. We're working with the people from Glastonbury on the stage design. And the idea is the whole thing is an immersive piece of theatre, and it's set in the summer of 98. Can you go back, though? I'm just wondering, because you're writing this book, you're having, you must be spending a lot of time in your head in the 90s now.

Oh, about 10 years. Right. So you're, lost in the 90s. Yeah, so you're back there. And I'm just wondering when you look back, because it was pretty, pretty hedonistic at the time. And I just wonder, when you look back at that young girl, do you ever feel it went too far? Or how do you look back on that time? It was actually really quite a deep experience writing the book. And we made the decision that I would write the book from my perspective as a young woman. I didn't want to be a mother, you know, with my mother's critical eye telling myself off. So I literally had to take myself right back and put myself in her shoes, which has been quite like a, not traumatic because, you know, it was joyous,

but there was a lot of good and a lot of bad that happened, you know, when you live in that kind of environment, which was very, very intense. Yeah, it's been it's been quite an amazing experience. And you have three adult children now. I think they're also working in part of the business as well. But you were very much freedom-loving in every aspect of that. Do you also, or have you also afforded them that as they grew up? Our children are actually really well-behaved.

Sometimes that happens, right? They kind of rebel against whatever the parents were. And they are all working on the business now. So, yeah, one in production management and another artist, she's an artistic assistant. And the other, Daisy's just graduated from Barcelona University. So she's working on the marketing and the PR. So we have, like, thrown them in the deep end. And we want this to be for their generation.

You know, it's very much. So if it's for their generation, Will there be phones? No, there will not be phones. Tell me what you think about the phone in a nightclub before I let you go. I just think that the phone, it makes you too self-conscious, you know, so you're not in the moment.

I always think if they're filming David Getter, what on earth are they going to do with that footage? You know, if you're thinking about filming somebody, you're not there with your friends enjoying that moment in time. So, yeah, we're going to ban telephones from the event. Well, enjoy looking back or living perhaps in the past for a little bit in the future. Really interesting to read about your experiences. Thank you so much for coming on and speaking to us candidly.

Claire Davies, Claire Manumission, as she's known. And the book is The Motel High Times in 90s, Aethe, one of the clubs that she ran in those wild times in the 90s. Thanks very much, Claire. Thank you. Thanks. Now, I want to turn to a story that you might have seen this morning, the headlines. children's lungs can recover when pollution levels drop where they live. This is a study just published today.

The researchers followed more than 3,400 primary school children in London and also specifically in Luton. They found that children in central London whose lungs had been stunted by pollution showed improvements after the ultra-low emission zone or Ulaz was introduced in 2019. It expanded to all boroughs, London boroughs, in 2023. You might know that the Ulaz restricts the most polluting vehicles from entering London with the aim of improving air quality. Researchers link the introduction of the zone to the improvement in children's lungs, although some feel the causes are more complex. I want to bring you first a little bit of the lead researcher.

This is Dr. Helen Wood from Queen Mary University of London, outlined in their findings on the today program this morning. We found the strongest evidence yet that an effective clean air zone can reduce some of the harm caused to children by air pollution. We found that children in London had significantly smaller lungs before the ULES was introduced, and over the following four years, they recovered their long function to catch up with children in Luton

where there wasn't a low-emission zone. So that is a little of Dr. Helen Wood. They're speaking to the BBC this morning. Well, in 2020, Ella Adduke, Cedepra, a nine-year-old girl from London, became the first person in the UK to have air pollution listed as a cause of death after she died following an asthma attack in 2013. We have spoken about her case a number of times with her mother who's with me, Rosamund Adoukissie Debra.

Good to have you back with us, Rosamund. You've been raising awareness on the effects of air pollution and what it can have on health. You're very welcome back. Your reaction for us to this study that you've seen? I knew on December the 16th, 2020, when the coroner, in his summing up of Ella's case, said, if it wasn't for the illegal levels of air pollution that was surrounding our house, not only would Ella not have got asthma, she wouldn't have died on that fatal night. So for me, I have never needed the study, although, as you know, this really helps,

because I have spoken to you a number of times. and for Ella to go from an incredibly healthy child to 30 admissions. And many times I was on my knees resuscitating her. I didn't need a study, but I'm really glad. Obviously, I've known about it coming out for a while. And again, it is a reminder that bold action needs to be taken. And we focus on children, but we must also focus on the vulnerable, the elderly, people who are ill. This is really about exposure and reducing

our exposure, reducing the emissions. I had just written to the Prime Minister very recently after his Cobra meeting and I found myself scratching my head yet again. Why? Because when there are heat waves, there is ozone air pollution. Ozone air pollution mixed with temperature is extremely toxic and that is the reason why over this summer more children have gone into hospital there have been excess deaths air pollution is linked to strokes, heart attacks, asthma attacks

do you see so for me it was it is very sad to say that to you that I wasn't shocked but rather than sit there and do nothing I've also written to Yvette Cooper the new health secretary. This is about prevention, reducing emissions at source

so people will not get ill in the birthplace. And of course, there are, as I mentioned at the top, it's a complex issue. There's a lot of strong opinion on what path should be taken. You don't have to go too far

to find some of those. And I don't have some of the figures that you mention there, Rosamund. But I'm thinking that today with this study, and you've worked so hard on this issue, but it must be bittersweet in a way because what you're doing,

you're doing it for other people's children. Yes, and there is, you know, as I sit here, I have my chain on and one of them is Ella's obviously thumbs and I carry it with me daily. There is, I'm not going tonight, there is, every now and then there is a moment because Ella's death was preventable. She may still have got asthma,

but if this action was. taken back then. She was born in 2004. And if the last mayor of London had taken this action, because we've always known about this, I believe she will still be here as we speak. But I can't dwell on that. There is a lot more to do because nowhere reaches WHO targets, which is what the coroner said, needs to be a minimum everywhere, WHA targets. that is it. There are still areas in the UK where they are high and exceed those guidelines as you mentioned. I do have some of those figures

actually that you were mentioning. It's 114,000 children were admitted to hospital or taken to A&E in London last year with serious breathing problems according to the new figures obtained by parent campaigners like you. In my last minute, you are working on a campaign on indoor air pollution

I understand. Introducing air filtration systems in school. Why is that important? Because we now know also more about indoor, indoor I urge the Prime Minister. He talks about homelessness today. Homelesslessless people, they are one of the worst impacts. I urge the Health Secretary to meet with me and we can do far more. Chris Whitty has said air pollution is something we can do something about. And what would that look like? What would it take? We have to reduce emissions at source. Less diesel, less burning, wood burning, which is very controversial. As you said, construction. less diesel machines, but saving lives is worth it.

We don't want to wake up with suddenly finding a lump. Women in the 40s to 50s who don't smoke now, lung cancer is increasing. Some of that is down to air pollution. So population health is always going to be at the heart of everything. Let me leave it there. Thank you so much for speaking to us. Rosamund, Addu, Kisi Debra, on that story this morning, as you'll see on the BBC website about air quality and children's.

lung significantly improving in certain areas. Anita's with you tomorrow speaking to a professor from Exeter University about her latest study into the crime of bigamy and the incredible stories she has discovered. Thanks so much for spending part of your day with us this morning on Woman's Hour. We're back with you tomorrow at 10. That's all for today's Woman's Hour. Join us again next time.

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