Woman's Hour - Franny Armstrong and climate comedy, Violence against women and girls, Women with learning disabilities and employment

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

Environmental filmmaker and Woman's Hour power lister Franny Armstrong thinks it's time for a bit of climate comedy. Having spent the best part of two decades making serious documentaries such as The Age of Stupid, Rivercide and McLibel, Franny talks about reaching new audiences with her film Pie Net Zero, featuring fake news reporter Jonathan Pie. A 10 week consultation period run by the Home Office looking at violence against women and girls has just been launched focusing on "the crimes that disproportionately affect women and girls ranging from rape to FGM to upskirting and online offences." We hear from Safeguarding minister Victoria Atkins.Women with learning disabilities are among the thousands of older and disabled people who've been described during the Covid crisis as ‘vulnerable’. But many are unhappy with that label – because not only have they been working throughout the pandemic – they've been working on the frontline. Statistically women with learning disabilities are the least likely to have a job. Disability Affairs reporter Carolyn Atkinson has been hearing from women with learning disabilities. Diane Lightfoot, CEO of the Business Disability Forum and Claire Cookson, CEO of DNF Project Search discuss. Christmas can be a particularly hard time for those who have experienced miscarriage or subfertility. Leading Gynaecologist and early pregnancy specialist Dr. Jessica Farren shares insights from her own personal experience of miscarriage and those who she has cared for.Presenter: Andrea Catherwood Producer: Dianne McGregor

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BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. Hello, welcome to the Woman's Hour podcast on Thursday the 17th of December. I'm Andrea Catherwood. Hello and welcome. When it comes to climate change, it doesn't feel like there's much to laugh at. But today on the programme, Woman's Hour powerlister and filmmaker Franny Armstrong tells us about why she is turning to comedy to save the planet. We're going to meet women with learning difficulties

who've been on the front line during the pandemic. And coping with miscarriage can feel lonely at any time. But Christmas brings its own set of problems for anyone who's lost a baby or is struggling with fertility, particularly when relatives ask when there's going to be another stocking on the mantelpiece. I'll be joined by a gynaecologist whose own experiences have given her a special insight and she's going to share some advice. If you've got any questions that you'd like me to put to Dr Jessica Farron or indeed any of our guests, we'd love to hear from you. We do read everything. So send us an email through the Woman's Hour website or on social media. It's at BBC Woman's Hour. But first, if you or anyone close to you has been affected by crimes that disproportionately

affect women from upskirting to rape, the government wants to know. It's hoping to gather your evidence through an online survey before it launches a new strategy on tackling violence against women and girls that will be launched in spring. Well, Safeguarding Minister Victoria Atkins joins me now. Victoria, I looked at the survey online. I know that you want to hear people's views, but I wonder what are you actually going to do with the stories that people share with you? Well, thank you, Andrea. We want women and girls to be safe and also to feel safe in and out of the home. But as you say, there are some crimes that disproportionately affect women and girls,

ranging from rape and sexual violence to domestic abuse, FGM, forced marriage, and some of the new online offences that we're seeing, such as upskirting. And so we've launched this public survey to hear from members of the public your views, perhaps your experiences of these crimes, so that we can create national strategies to tackle violence against women and girls and domestic abuse in ways that are appropriate and relevant and effective in the 21st century. Is that why you feel that you need a new strategy? I mean, you've had strategies before, are they not working? They've been very, very important strategies for their time,

but we have strategies each parliament and the last strategy has ended with the last Parliament. And so we're at a crossroads, I think, now in the development of our work in this really important area because, of course, we have the landmark domestic abuse bill that is making its way through Parliament. And with that flow many responsibilities on local authorities for example and on the police but also a real energy about tackling perpetrators of DA and what we want to do is to crystallise all of that energy and commitment into a domestic abuse strategy but

also have sitting alongside it a VORG strategy that deals with the other types of crimes we've talked about, such as rape, and bring to that 21st century solutions for some of these very sadly 21st century crimes, such as cyber flashing and upskirting. You've mentioned upskirting. A male barrister has just been allowed to continue practising after being convicted of that crime. I mean, he got a six-month ban from working and just a fine. Does that decision not send the wrong message, do you think? Well, look, I think, first of all, we have now, we've got a law in place to deal with this crime. And I play incredible tribute to Gina, who led the campaign on this.

And indeed, since the bill has come into force, we have seen 48 prosecutions for upskirting offences in the very first year. As for how the regulatory authority has conducted itself, I'm going to, if I may, leave that to them to justify. But I think the message is loud and clear that that sort of behaviour is not acceptable. It is unlawful. And certainly the criminal justice system will come after you if you do that. Now, I noticed that on the website, if you log in to do the survey, there is a forward there from Home Secretary Priti Patel. And she writes, I'm clear there's more to do when victims are suffering from abhorrent crime, and we must work tirelessly to enhance our approach. It remains the case that one in five women will experience sexual assault during their lifetime.

Violence against women is all too prevalent. Now, that's a really laudable sentiment, but your government has been in power for 10 years. Why is it that you haven't done more up to now? I mean, here we are launching yet another evidence-gathering exercise. Well, as I say, it's part of our ongoing work in this space, in fairness. And if I may just correct you about having not done much in this area. I mean, in the last 10 years, we have committed funding of £100 million to tackle precisely these sorts of crimes

through the help of vital frontline services. We've introduced new stalking protection orders, we've criminalised forced marriage and introduced lifelong anonymity for victims of forced marriage in FGM. We have brought in a new mandatory reporting duty for victims of FGM. We've created a new offence of failing to protect a girl from FGM. We've increased funding for rape and sexual abuse support services. Okay, thank you very much for all of that. But if I could just come in, rape convictions are scandalously low. They've fallen to their lowest level ever since records exist in England and Wales in 2019-20, which is the last figures that we have. You've said yourself that as little as 1% of rape allegations now lead to a conviction. Shouldn't any new strategy start there?

Well, thank you so much for raising this, because the rape conviction rates and prosecution rates are deeply, deeply concerning, which is why alongside this work, I wouldn't want listeners to think this is the only thing we're working on from the moment that an offence is reported to the police, all the way through to the conclusion of that case, whether it be after an effective trial, or indeed, if a complainant decides not to pursue the case further. And we're looking at each and every stage, there's a huge body of work going on with that. We're going to publish the findings of that review early next year. But alongside the rape review will sit the VORG strategy, which will be very much encompassing the work of the rape review, as well as, as I say, the wider work on other types of crimes that disproportionately affect women and girls. We've got to make changes on this. And one of the things I'm really, really keen on

is that we build the confidence of victims and survivors we've seen more survivors of sexual violence reporting their cases to the police I now want to we have more survivors have reported their cases but many fewer convictions exactly and this is I want that that is what we are looking at in the end-to-end review you know this review is a thorough review. It will not make for easy reading, I suspect, when it is published next year for some parts of the criminal justice system. We absolutely want to improve this. And indeed, this determination comes from the very, very top.

I was at a meeting this week with the Prime Minister who himself put violence against women and girls and rape convictions, he absolutely made clear his own personal commitment to improve. Okay, well, one thing that you could do right now, victims and survivors have seen that completed rape prosecutions have fallen by half earlier this year, due to COVID related delays in the courts. Can you get those backlogs cleared? Surely that must be the first thing to do to protect victims and survivors right now. Indeed. And we are, of course, very conscious of the backlog.

Indeed, during the first lockdown, the national lockdown, there was still a skeleton service of courts that were dealing with domestic abuse and other cases of vulnerability. But there is still this backlog. And the Ministry of Justice has been working with the court system to reduce this backlog. We are making progress. We have opened 250 Crown Courts by the end of... Any idea when it will be cleared? Well, we are working, as I say, with this plan. Some of the practical difficulties, particularly for the offences

that will attract custodial sentences, of course, is the structure of the buildings themselves. And so that's why we have introduced Nightingale courts, some of which are now able to handle custody cases, in other words, those cases that even involve people in custody. But no dates for when the backlog could be cleared? We're working steadily through it. And, you know, everybody in the criminal justice system wants this backlog clear. We're making real progress, actually, in the magistrates court.

They are now. Okay. I'm just going to ask you one more question before you go. There's a story in the news today that new EU privacy measures could mean global internet firms will be banned from automatically detecting child abuse images from next Monday. This seems like an extraordinary loophole, which would make it inadvertently easier for child abusers to operate. What's the government doing to stop this happening? It is an extraordinary loophole. You are right.

And we've been working hard to try to get a derogation agreed through the EU to ensure that this does not come to pass. But in the meantime, waiting as we are for the EU to consider that derogation. We have looked very carefully at this. There are several offences in relation to child sexual abuse already obviously in UK law and we have been highlighting this issue to the Council of Europe and through our mission in Brussels. Are you going to get it fixed by next Monday? Well, that's for the EU. And of course, in the meantime, we are confident that we have sufficient legislative measures in place to enable the voluntary processing of relevant data for this. So it won't make it easier for child abusers?

Well, again, this is an EU directive. And so we are doing everything we can at our end, but it does require the EU to address this derogation. We should also make it clear, you know, the UK is a world leader on tackling child sexual exploitation and abuse. We are a member of the Five Eyes. We have all arms of British policing, including the National Crime Agency, working on this incredibly important crime type. And of course,

we have the Online Harms Bill, which will start to make its progress through the House next year. Okay, Victoria, we'll have to leave it there. Victoria Atkins, Safeguarding Minister, thank you very much indeed. And a link to that survey is on today's page of the Women's Hour website and the consultation period lasts for the next 10 weeks. Now women with learning disabilities are among the thousands of older and disabled people who've been described during the Covid crisis as vulnerable. Many are unhappy with that label because not only have they been working through the pandemic, they've also been working on the front line. Our disability affairs reporter, Carolyn Atkinson, has been hearing from three women with learning disabilities. One has a job in Tesco supermarket, but first let's hear

from two women who are working as healthcare assistants at Northwick Park Hospital in London. My name is Drusty. I'm a healthcare assistant and currently I work in the NHS doing swabbing and giving out masks to people. Hello. Welcome to Northwick Park. Would you like to have some hand gel and a mask? Yes, please. Okay. And if you could report to the reception, they will be able to guide you to your appointment. I see. Thank you.

You're welcome. I am excited about this new job because I'm getting to work with different people and I'm also getting to work in a new environment, get to communicate with people and interact with people. Hi, my name is Jessica. I'm currently a healthcare assistant. I got this job by being on a program called Project Search. Project Search is a supported internship which lasts for nine months. My extra needs are I have moderate learning disability, I need extra support from others.

I felt a bit nervous but now I'm feeling very happy working with new people. Alright, dressy, I'm going back to the wardards. See you soon. See you. My name's Nick Penny. I live locally, rushed in hospital. We were ruptured appendix. The care has been absolutely first class. Morning. Is it OK for me to take your blood pressure this morning? Yeah, certainly, yeah.

Thank you. How are you today? Yeah, good, yeah. Much better. That's good. All good. Your blood pressure is all right, as you can see. Thank you. Have a nice day. So, Jessica, the patient next to you in the bed opposite, he needs to have a wash.

Can you just help him up a little bit, please? Yes. Just get a ball and a gown. He's going to have surgery, so you need to get a ball and a gal he's going to have surgery so you need to get a ball a gal some socks and just prepare his bed and make sure that his paperwork is up to date yes i can do that fabulous great thank you very much good morning do you need any help today? My name's Jessica and my job is greeting people in Tesco

and then showing them where the item is. I reply on the internet and it come up it did. I said reply to it. I had an interview, that went okay. And then I got the job. Start at eight o'clock and finish at two. What sort of things are people asking you? Like where the outfit calendars are. The advent calendars.

Yeah. And like chocolates or different things. Knowing exactly where everything is. It's a nightmare in a supermarket usually, isn't it? I've been here shopping with mum, so I exactly where everything is, it's a nightmare in a supermarket usually, isn't it? I've been here shopping with mum, so I know where everything is. So you are the perfect person. Yeah. You have had other jobs in the past. How does this compare? This, I can be more independent and my skills building up. So you're feeling more confident in yourself. My colleagues will help. Like, they're happy to help. And if you're struggling, they will help you.

Like, they know that I've got special needs and they will, like, treat you well. It's up to you as well. Tell me more about what you are getting out of the job, what it's making you feel like. I feel, like, happy and more independent as well. I'm doing the trolleys on your own and the baskets without asking. And I get paid for it as well.

I haven't been paid before. And when you got your first paycheck, what did you go and spend it on? I would like, like, a pair of shoes I would buy, like trainers. My name's Emma Price. I am a job coach at Northwick Park. I mean, we're very lucky here at Northwick Park because we have very strong mentors who really do appreciate what these young people bring to the world.

You know, we job coach them into the role, we build on their skills. There's a lot of stigma around women with learning disabilities and people need to actually meet these young people and see what they bring to the workforce. They work harder, they want to be seen, they want to be heard. And I do believe that, you know, all hospitals should get involved. And, you know, if you want to know about a person with learning disabilities, then walk beside them because they'll be more than happy to tell you. Never give up and stay strong and find a perfect job in life.

I wouldn't have thought I would be a healthcare assistant but I feel happy to be a healthcare assistant. Well women with learning disabilities are the least likely section of our communities to have a job but one supported internship scheme for people with learning disabilities and autism is claiming to buck the trend, securing permanent paid jobs for 43% of its trainees compared with that national figure of just 5%. Well, Claire Cookson is from Project Search, which operates the scheme, and Diane Lightfoot runs the Business Disability Forum, which represents companies, many of them household names like AA, ASDA and WH Smith. And Claire, the women that we just heard from in that clip have got jobs, but the figures are so stark that they do bear repeating just 5% of women with

learning difficulties are employed. Why is that? Well, and actually that statistic, new data out has just told us it's actually 4.8% of women. And why is it? Because in truth, I think we have lower expectations for women. We have even lower expectations for women with learning disabilities. And I think there's some good research out there that says that family expectations are lower for women. And actually, if you look at all the people in special schools and colleges, the vast majority are boys and men. And therefore, we're not getting the right support to females as they go through our education system.

And this affects women beyond just the obvious idea of being employed, earning a wage, you know, it's actually goes right the way through to life expectancy, doesn't it? It really does. And in fact, the data tells us that a woman who has a mild learning disability, her life expectancy is 18 years less than mine. Nothing to do really with her learning disability, but due to socioeconomic factors, which is terrifying. Diane, if I can bring you in here, we've heard that 95% slightly more than that of women with learning difficulties can't find work. There are other factors, but do you accept that some of the blame lies with employers? I think the employers are obviously a really important part of the jigsaw they are only one part and and by definition our

members are the converted because they're our members and they generally want to do more and as you say they do employ 20 of the uk workforce so there is a big force for good there there are pockets of good practice so i was talking the other day to our member national grid who off their own bat does a year-long internship program for young people with a learning disability that has seen a hundred young people go through over five years and 60% of them have gone on to paid work which is great but unfortunately those those examples of good practice are few and far between and and part of it I think is a lack of awareness around learning

disabilities specifically and the lack of role models and seeing people. And also a lack of understanding that sometimes someone with a learning disability, as we've just heard, really can be the best person for the job. And a lot of times it's about employers knowing what they can do differently. So, for example, somebody who might not excel, perhaps, at a standard panel interview might do brilliantly in a training scheme, as we've just heard about. And having an opportunity to show someone how they could do the job rather than talking about what they've done before, particularly if it's a first job, can make a huge, huge difference. But I did say the employer is a one piece of the jigsaw. And sometimes we also see that other places in the system are not really working.

So I heard a very recent example of a candidate with a learning disability. And she was told by the job centre that if she couldn't attend an interview for a particular role, then she wasn't able to apply for it. And actually, when they contacted the employer and we spoke to the employer, they said they would have been perfectly happy to have been to offer this woman a work trial. But unfortunately, the job centre wasn't aware that that was an option. And then there are some wider systemic issues. So access to work is a government scheme that provides funding to support individuals with a whole range of disabilities in work. But it has a cap at present.

And that cap disproportionately affects people who need more funding. And that's generally people who need human support, like the job coach that we that we spoke to at the hospital. So that can be a real barrier for people. And then I would also agree with Claire about expectations and aspirations being lower for women. There is that piece around role models, but also making sure that skills development and that pipeline of talent is there and that young women with learning disabilities

are getting the support they need. And thinking about the stats, often there's less diagnosis of women because they tend to present differently. So there's lots of issues. Clara, you've taken issue with the idea that women with learning difficulties have been classed as vulnerable during the pandemic. Why is that? Because they are not vulnerable. Everybody is a case-by-case basis. And that's what we reached out to all of our employers. And we partnered with many employers across the country for DFN Project Search. And we said, please risk assess on a case-by-case basis as you would for anybody else. And we've just heard from some phenomenal women

who were, when everybody else was in lockdown, they were starting their careers and they they were starting them as key workers or essential workers. And I never wanted to let go of that language, because they really were fulfilling jobs that most of us couldn't do. And just to kind of pick up on some of that data that you mentioned earlier, it's actually 70% of our interns that go into jobs, 60% go into full time paid jobs. And out of that, for our women last year, that was 53% of our women, which against that national average of 4.8% is phenomenal. And it proves they are not vulnerable. So what is it, Claire, that you're doing differently that makes your project so successful? So it's a fully immersive, full academic year based within a host business.

We use trained job coaches, just as Diane was describing, using the access to work funding. And we use something called systematic instruction. Those interns, they get to do three internships across this host business. And using systematic instruction, job coaches break those roles down. They make reasonable adjustments. They change the way that those jobs are designed. And they support those interns to be 100 percent accurate, 100 percent of the time. And using really great vocational profiling tools, we can evidence that right back to employers. And actually, when you're part of that culture, we work with, you know, 70 businesses across the country. It helps people realize that they see it. They see these interns thriving,

being brilliant at their jobs, helping other people to be more brilliant at their jobs, helping people develop their disability confidence. And then at the end of that, they have got a live CV. They have got very marketable skills. And then we use really good job development training to support these young women and young men into paid employment and they are they get jobs across all sorts of sectors and industries and if i give you an example um that that cohort that you heard from earlier in the program the types of jobs that those women went into they buck every trend so we have women going into distribution centers we have them going into material management clerical sterile, manufacturing, food prep, office admin, you know, there's a whole

array of jobs across all sorts of sectors. And they are thriving, and they are proving they can do it every single day. Diane, shouldn't all employers learn from this? I think Project Search is absolutely a brilliant programme and I would love to see it rolled out more widely. And I wanted to pick up on what Claire said about really talent and about this being the best person for the job. So in many cases, someone with a learning disability might be the very, very best person. And creating an environment in which they can show that

and thrive is really important. And we're also hearing from some of our members, not surprisingly, that in the context of Brexit, they are wanting and needing to hire from a broader talent pool. So particularly industries like care, construction, retail, hospitality, agriculture, really broad spectrum, are needing to cast the net much more widely well thank you so much for showing that as such a positive light claire cookson from project search and diane lightfoot of the business disability forum thank you both very much indeed now you may have heard in the news yesterday that a coroner has ruled that air pollution contributed to the death of nine-year-old ella Kissy Deborah from London. She died in 2013 after a fatal asthma attack. It's the first time

in the UK that air pollution has been listed as a cause of death and something that her mum, Rosamund, had been fighting for. She was on our Woman's Hour Power List. And if you'd like to hear her interview, then you can listen back to that interview via BBC Sounds. And do tweet or email us. You can text us on 84844. Texts will be charged at your standard message rate and you can check with your network provider for any extra costs. And now to another woman who is on our Our Planet power list. Her latest venture is making climate change funny, and that sounds like a pretty tall order. If anyone can do it, it is environmentalist and documentary maker Franny Armstrong.

Her new film, Pi Net Zero, features a spoof news reporter, Jonathan Pye. I'm going to start just by playing a little clip, and this is from the very start of the film. The UK currently emits 350 million tonnes of carbon dioxide each year by burning fossil fuels for everything from food production, transport and consumer goods to power generation, buildings and industry and all the viewers have switched over to Love Island. Where's the remote? Quick. It's very boring, Franny. It's very geography GCSE, isn't it?

Can't we jazz it up a bit? Need some tits or something? You know, it's the end of the world. Come on! Franny, welcome to the programme. Hello, thank you very much for having me. I'm honoured to be on your list amongst so many of my heroes. Well, we are very delighted to have you and congratulations. You've spent two decades making some rivetingly serious documentaries about the planet and now this, you're not sending up your own work here, are you? No, I'm not. I think, but i've come to realize you know that climate change is is very

very scary i think we're all scared and you know the more you know about it the more scary it is and i and i feel that you know people are so fearful that they can become paralyzed when you know what we need is the opposite of that what we need is action and um so i think that comedy you know and jokes they can help it can help dispel the fear um and break down that anxiety and jokes, it can help dispel the fear and break down that anxiety and the paralysis and hopefully lead into action. Interesting. I watched Pineat Zero last night. It is really entertaining, but you also did manage to smuggle a few facts in there that I didn't know. Are you hoping to attract a new audience? Do you know who's listening to this or who's watching it? Well, I was thrilled by the success of Pioneer Zero when it came out last year.

It was actually in YouTube's top 10, trending top 10, which was a new thing for me. But just looking at the thousands of comments that we got, I could tell that it was a new audience that we'd reached. Yes, different from all the comments I've had in my from my previous documentaries like Age of Stupid. But docs do have a huge amount of power to change attitude surely i mean i'm thinking about for example david attenborough's blue planet 2 or or your own age of stupid which involves a person in 2025 i think looking back at 255 rather yeah and they're looking back at how people, you know, around 2010 or whatever, were ignoring the problems that we have.

Really powerful stuff. Documentaries work, don't they? Thank you. Absolutely, yes. I mean, that's why I've dedicated my life to doing it. I think they're the most powerful in terms of what one person can choose to do with their life, you know, what I can do with this one precious life that I've been given, you know, I think dedicating it to making future documentaries, absolutely, in terms of you can take somebody on a journey from, you know, they can walk into a cinema,

turn on the telly and know nothing about a subject. And over the course of 90 minutes, through the power of the images, the stories, the music, the graphics, everything working together, at the end of 90 minutes, they can come out as a climate activist, ideally. I mean, it depends where they see the programme as well. We found with Age of Stupid after when that came out, we had thousands of local screenings in schools and youth clubs and climate. Small groups would hold screenings. And we found that that was a much more powerful way to watch a film than sitting on your own, you know, at home on your telly. Because at the end of the film, when you have that feeling, what can I do, I want to do something, then you turn to the people around you and say,

what can we all do? And more than 100 local transition town groups or 1010 groups were actually formed at screenings of Age of Stupid, which is one of the things I'm proudest of, actually. You've been making documentaries for 25 years, but just tell us, go back a little bit and tell us at what point in your life did you decide to dedicate your life to being an environmentalist? Well, I certainly didn't decide to be a filmmaker. That was an accident. But I became an environmentalist, I would say, like in the same way that so many people do, which is just as a very, very young child. I loved animals and I cared for them and I didn't want to see them suffer. You know, I wanted to be a vet and then I wanted to be a farmer. And actually, when I was 11, my mum booked us a holiday at a farm and I threw myself into, you know, milking the cows and shoveling up the slurry and all that and then one day uh the farmer well my favorite cow who was called piggy for

reasons which are lost in the midst of time but anyway she tripped and she cut her udder and it was just a small cut only about five centimeters long and i remember saying to the farmer you know are you going to get a vet to come and sew that up and the farmer said well she's going to slaughter in six months anyway and the vet would cost £37 to come and do that sewing, so I'm going to send her to slaughter now. And that was the moment that I realised that, in general, humans treat the rest of the living world as, you know, not as sentient beings to be cherished and respected,

but as units of production for our own profit. And, of course, it's that attitude which has led to so many of the massive problems that we have today, not least the coronavirus. You said that it was an accident that you picked up a camera, a very happy accident for the rest of us. How did that start? Well, in my early 20s, I was actually a drummer in a pop group. But then I heard about this, what became the McDonald's libel trial starting up, where McDonald's had sued these two activists who were giving out leaflets, criticizing McDonald's about their environmental issues, nutrition, junk food, advertising to children. I already cared about were bundled up together in this trial. But at the same time, it had this fantastic David and Goliath story of these two people who dared to stand up to McDonald's. And I just thought that's the coolest thing I've ever heard. I love it. And, you know, my dad is a

filmmaker. And so I just happened to have access to filmmaking equipment at a time when, you know, people didn't have video cameras in the mid 90s, you know, let alone cameras in your pocket. Anyway, so I said to my dad, you know, can I borrow your camera for six months? And that turned into a 10-year odyssey, eventually making it onto TV and cinemas all around the world. I want to ask you how optimistic you are. In your documentary, Age of Stupid, you know, you sort of say that we only had until about 2015 to save the planet.

We're five years on from that. We know all about extended deadlines at the moment. But how are we doing? Well, yeah, not 2015 to save the planet, but to start decreasing the global emissions, to start bringing the curve down and then bring them down them down very very fast all the way down to ideally zero um how are we doing well well you know our generation has got one job you know when people in history when history looks back at our generation they're going to say these guys had one job and that was to keep the home safe to keep the planet habitable for all humans and and the rest

of species and we're doing you know we're failing catastrophically on that and um you know previous generations to us you know they didn't know about climate change and the generations that come after us it'll be too late for them to stop it so it does come down to us um and you know there's nothing intrinsically more useless or more stupid to coin a phrase about our generation you know and other generations managed to solve the big issues of their time, whether it was, you know, inventing vaccines or overturning slavery or ending apartheid, you know. And so, you know, this is the one job our generation has to do. Well, Franny, congratulations on your place on this year's Woman's Hour Power List. I know that you've got more comedy planned to help us to save the planet. So thank you very much for that

and we'll look forward to it. Now, we've talked before on this programme about how Christmas can be tough for anyone dealing with grief. One type of loss that's not addressed so commonly is miscarriage. Many women who've lost a baby or who are dealing with fertility treatments

haven't chosen to share that news. but then that can leave them feeling isolated and having to fend off questions from in-laws at Christmas asking when they're going to hear the patter of tiny feet. Well, Dr. Jessica Farron is a gynaecologist and a researcher specialising in early pregnancy. She's based at St. Mary's Hospital in London. Jessica, welcome. I know that some people will be listening to this thinking, well, what's so special about Christmas? But it is a time of year that tends to bring up a lot of issues. Why is it particularly tough for anyone who's lost a baby? Absolutely. So I'd like to start just by saying that our research at Imperial College does show that pregnancy loss is a major life event, whatever time of year you go through it. And in spite of how shrouded in secrecy it is. So when we looked at the emotional impact of pregnancy loss, we found massive levels of anxiety, of depression, of even one in three women experiencing symptoms of post-traumatic stress

and significant results too in partners. But I think what's important about Christmas is it's a time when everyone around you seems to be joyful and you're supposed to be joyful. And so your own emotions when you're going through something like this are in sort of very stark contrast to how you think you're supposed to feel or everyone around you's feeling um and it's recognized as you said in other contexts that people who have suffered other bereavements have a difficult time around christmas but because this is something that's not openly talked about people don't tend to get the same level of support um i think it's also worth saying that traditionally christmas obviously associated, a time associated with family and with children.

And I think that many people, as soon as they start thinking about starting a family or have that positive pregnancy test, will fast forward and imagine the next Christmas and what that's going to look like with a bump or with a baby. And so when it rolls around and your arms are empty, it's a very stark reminder of what you don't have. Now, I know that many of us have chosen not to share the fact that we've miscarried, even though it happens to so many women, we tend not to talk about it still. Is that one of the reasons that it can be particularly hard? Because even very close friends and family don't know what you've been through. Exactly. I think until it's an event that we sort of routinely talk about and are open about, it's a bereavement that you deal with in silence,

which makes it unlike all other bereavements where people reach out and get the support from friends and family. You've been through this yourself, not as a doctor, although, of course, that is the area that you work in, but also as a patient, as an expectant mother who miscarried. Because you knew so much about the physiology of what was happening to you, did it still affect you more than you expected? I think it did, yes. And I think, I mean, it's always important, I think, when I talk about my own experiences.

I'm always very open about my own experiences as part of my general mission to break the silence, essentially. But of course, as you've alluded to, it's very important to recognize that my own experiences were in many ways much easier because of my lowered expectations from working in early pregnancy for so long and also my familiarity with the sort of physicality of it and therefore I sort of always feel that my own message is stronger as a researcher and as a clinician having spoken to women going through it for many years and as a patient but I recognize that sort of in spite of all of the reasons why I should have found it easier, I still really struggled to have hope and to have patience. And I think that in turn has made me more empathetic, I hope, as a clinician going forward. It's interesting you talked about lowered

expectations because, you know, many of us understand how many pregnancies actually end in miscarriage um but so do you think that when women like megan markle and other celebrities have recently come out and talked about their own experiences do you think that's helpful is it something that you welcome absolutely i think it's i think it's massively important and i always advocate that people talk about it if indeed they feel able to while obviously respecting that some people feel they don't want to. Because I think for every announcement like that, there will be a group of people who listen to it and who feel less alone. I think what was particularly helpful about Megan's account was that she shared a very vivid story of how she felt in the New York Times article she talks about sort of dropping to the floor and feeling this

sharp cramp. And what we know from our research is that these sorts of flashbacks are actually very common, and that these sorts of vivid memories tend to stay with people for a very long time. So I think it would have been reassuring to people going through those sorts of symptoms and hearing that Megan had had such a similar experience. I would say that I'm absolutely delighted that the conversation is starting about miscarriage, but I do think it's also at the same time important to recognise some other groups of pregnancy losses that aren't so commonly talked about. So our research included women going through ectopic pregnancies, which are less common but still affect one

in 100 women, and also the huge group of people going through infertility and failed IVF cycles or women going through the sort of heartbreaking recommendation to potentially terminate a pregnancy. Indeed a really important group of people that often get overlooked. What advice would you give to any of those women any of the women in the categories that you've talked about who are feeling feelings of grief and maybe isolation and slightly dreading the coming Christmas period? Absolutely. I mean, I think our research has shown that, as I say, that lots of people suffer from significant psychological illness after these sorts of things. And so I think the first thing to say is that if you feel

that you have symptoms of depression, of anxiety or post-traumatic stress that it's important to to recognize those to go to your gp and to get the help that you would in any other context for those sorts of conditions um we're planning to look and see what we can do to help women um going through pregnancy loss and in future studies at imperial um there are lots of support groups out there um So the charity Tommy's supported my research and they have a really good miscarriage support group. I'm also a medical ambassador for the charity Saying Goodbye, which offers very good support. And I've heard good reports about people's interaction with the Miscarriage Association and the Ectopic Pregnancy Trust do.

And perhaps a word of caution to everybody else that you might not know what women, even women who are very close to you, even family members have been through this year. So tact is always key. Dr.. Abortion, on the other hand, is not, especially as it can be controversial. These silent bereavements should be acknowledged too. And another one saying that I had my first miscarriage 43 years ago. It was devastating as my husband was in the armed forces and radio silence, so he could not be contacted. My mother-in-law was a gynaecologist and obstetrician. Her attitude was, I had a miscarriage, stop making a fuss and get on with it. I didn't realise how badly it had affected me. As I was suffering from postnatal depression, no one seemed to understand

how I was suffering. Luckily, after a further miscarriage, I had a very premature baby. His twin was another miscarriage. And that was from Philippa. And Sue writes, At 18 years of age, I find myself living with infertility. Every Christmas, when I was watching friends and family with their children, was heartbreaking. Now I'm in my late 50s, it's no different. So when people who have children say they understand, they don't. Well, Sue, thank you very much for sharing that with us. We also had a lot of love for our power lister today.

We had Franny Armstrong on. Great conversation, writes Gray, highlighting the seriousness of the climate emergency and the need for us all to engage and to act. And a lot of people talking about how really our generation has one job. And that is what Franny pointed out this morning. Inspiring stuff, says Lucy. Well, we've also got a lot more on tomorrow's programme.

Jane is here. We've got more from our Women's Hour Power List on our planet. This time, two women who've dedicated their work to making the environmental sector a safer and more inclusive place for people from black and ethnic minority backgrounds. Judy Ling Wong and Zarina Ahmed are joining Jane tomorrow. And there's also an audio adaptation of Peter Pan with music. It's going to be launched on December 20th in support of Great Ormond Street Children's Hospital.

And it's going to feature a host of famous names, Olivia Colman, Bertie Carvell, Kenneth Branagh, Jane Horrocks, Clive Rowe, Sharon D. Clarke. And Sharon's actually going to join Jane tomorrow. She is playing the narrator. And in this version, that's Wendy's great granddaughter. So lots more tomorrow. Hello, Louis Theroux here. And I just wanted to hijack this podcast to tell you that I'm back granddaughter. So lots more tomorrow. Kayla Cole, Frankie Boyle, Oliver Stone, Sia and FKA Twigs for another set of eclectic and thought-provoking conversations. Yes, I'm still grounded with me, Louis Theroux. Available on BBC Sounds.

I'm Sarah Trelevan, and for over a year, I've been working on one of the most complex stories I've ever covered. There was somebody out there who was faking pregnancies. I started, like, warning everybody. Every doula that I know. It was fake. No pregnancy. And the deeper I dig, the more questions I unearth. How long has she been doing this?

What does she have to gain from this? From CBC and the BBC World Service, The Con, Caitlin's Baby. It's a long story, settle in. Available now.