Woman's Hour - Freebirthing, Author Sarah Mughal Rana, Syria: One year on

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Have you heard of Freebirthing? It’s giving birth without any medical help or intervention. A new podcast by The Guardian has investigated an American organisation – the Free Birth Society or FBS – a multimillion-dollar business which professionals claim promotes some dangerous views. Nuala McGovern is joined by Sirin Kale who undertook the investigation along with her colleague Lucy Osbourne. Dr Claire Feeley, midwife and senior lecturer at Kings College London who has done research into freebirthing, discusses the free birth picture here in the UK.Today marks a year since the fall of the Assad regime in Syria. For more than half a century the Assad family ruled Syria with an iron fist and when it came to an end after 13 years of war, many women hoped for a new era. So what's the situation for women in the country 12 months on? We hear from Lina Sinjab, the BBC's Middle East correspondent, who is Syrian and currently in Aleppo.As part of Radio 4’s annual Christmas Appeal, we hear from NHS Clinical psychologist Sarah Phillips and former Rowan Alba supported-accommodation resident Elvira about how a revolutionary in-house psychologist team is helping homeless women in supported housing in Edinburgh and why they think this model should be rolled out across the UK.Sarah Mughal Rana is a #BookTok personality and the co-host of On the Write Track podcast. Her debut novel - Dawn of the Firebird -has just been published. It’s an epic, action-packed fantasy story, embracing rich Islamic culture. Sarah joins Nuala to discuss the main protagonist, the discarded daughter of an emperor, who is described as: Daughter, Assassin, Traitor, Saviour. Presenter: Nuala McGovern Producer: Kirsty Starkey

Hello, this is Nula McGovern, and you're listening to The Woman's Hour podcast. Hello and welcome to the program. Well, when you're on from the fall of Bashar al-Assad in Syria, we ask where do women now stand in the country? We have my colleague, Alina Sinjab, coming up in just a moment. Also, we want to look into the world of free birthing, the intentional choice to give birth without the attendance of a registered midwife or doctor. It's an idea that originated in 1950s in the United States,

but has come under scrutiny in the UK lately. We will hear why. We'll also make time for an epic fantasy dawn off the firebird. It's a debut novel by Sarah Mughal Rana and it will take us to places inspired by Central and South Asian history. We'll also speak to Elvira. She is a woman who has a home after years of living without one. Elvira will tell us about how she came to be homeless

and also how charities and a dedicated psychologist helped her overcome her challenges and that she now has a future to look forward to. If you'd like to get in touch on anything you hear on the program, you can text us, the number is 84844, social media, we're at BBC Women's Hour, or you can email us through our website. For a WhatsApp message or a voice note,

that number is 0,300-100-444. But let us begin with Syria, because today marks a year since the fall of the Assad regime in Damascus. For more than half a century, the Assad family ruled Syria, with an iron fist. And when it came to an end, after 13 years of war,

many women hoped for a new era. But how does it look? 12 months on. Well, Lena Sinja, as I mentioned, the BBC's Middle East correspondent, also Syrian and based in Aleppo, is with us. Lena, good to have you with us.

I can't believe it's actually a year since you, we talked about the fall off Assad at that time. And there was so much hope, I suppose, in the country for what might happen. The new president is Ahmed al-Shara. How do you feel he has delivered for women? Well, it's really challenging time because he made so many promises, big promises, for women, for minorities. But it hasn't manifested yet.

The representation of women in the government is very poor. we have only one woman appointed as a minister in the government, who is also a Christian, so she ticks two boxes of minorities and women. But elsewhere, in key positions in important decision-making, we see an absence of women's presence. Although women have been a leading force in Syria, They have been part of the parliament since 1950. They are the educators at universities, at schools, in the workplace.

But with this new government, the situation of women is not as it deserves in Syria. It's interesting, though, isn't it? Because there were these elections. Women could take part. Many women did run. But I saw it was a dentist called Angela Cori, who was interviewed by the media. And she said that men are simply not voting for women. But if we're talking about approximately 50-50,

it sounds like women aren't voting for women either. Well, that's exactly what's happened. And unfortunately, in this semi-election for the parliament, because it's not a clear election process, but rather selection. And what happened is that the women who were selected to choose among themselves, you know, for women, they voted for men rather than women, even in the capital Damascus or a place

like Aleppo. And the few women who were managed to be in the parliament were from Hamas, Homs and from Latakia, but none in Damascus or Aleppo. And that was quite a frustrating process. But how do you understand that? Well, it's a man-led society. And, you know, at the same time, The process in which this semi-elections took place did not give chance for really all the powerful women to be part of the electing committee. The president said that there is the third that still remains for him to choose. In members of parliament, he said he's going to be on his time to elect women. But I think there is more to be done in the society, more to be done in the government. government. If you look at government announcement or photos of meetings and, you know, activities

happening, almost all the photos you can come across, all men leading it. I mean, mind you, this happens in many other countries as well. I was just thinking that, Lena, as you said that, that's probably many of the get-togethers of political leaders. We see something, perhaps not if it's as extreme, as you mentioned, but definitely similar. I do very much remember Al-Thera, when he came to power, there were promises that there would be no restrictions on women's lives, you know, whether it was with their dress, customs or activities. How would you say that has played out? I think serious society is very much tolerant, and it hasn't affected cities, big cities like Damascus or Aleppo or other places.

But mind you, there is no dress code imposed by the government, but there are, There are some restrictions that are more coming out from conservative society that they feel now it's a Sunni leadership and they can have their say about it. But there is a big fight back by women on the ground. Because that is a change, if you'd like to describe as well, from the background of Assad, for example. He was not Sunni. Well, but even in the days of Assad, there were the hardline or extra conservative, you know, women leading force like the Kubaisiyat, who are the similar to Muslim Brotherhood, these are the women brotherhood or sisterhood.

And they were trying to enforce change and more conservative line in the society. I mean, in the past decade or two, the number of women wearing the hijab is exceeded. Now, you can count on your hands the number of women who are not wearing the hijab versus the other women wearing the hijab. But if you go out of the capital, like here in Aleppo or in Idlib, actually more and more women wearing the niqab rather than the hijab. So it's really a fight among the society. And the hope is that the government will not enforce any laws to change it. It's interesting because we talk about Sunni there.

Bashar al-Assad and his family were al-White. There will have been women and girls that supported him as well. There was a recent amnesty report highlighting cases of kidnapped al-a-white women and girls. Is that an issue? It is certainly an issue. I mean, the numbers are still debated, but there are proved cases of kidnapped al-a-white women.

There are cases where it proved they were forced marriages. The government issued a report that for many was appalling because they've denied any wrongdoing, and they said that the women who disappeared were basically going out with their lovers, which is something that shocked the society. but this is something that many civil society and women activists are working on to stop and to also, you know, criminalise and hold people accountable for these practices.

But that sounds again along sectarian lines. And an issue within Bashar al-Assad, Syria, was this disappearing of people, many who have still not been found from that time. And I'm just wondering what that feels like from. from a security perspective for women and girls? I think over the past year, there were many challenges and disappointing points, where especially the massacres that happened in the coastal side against the Alawites and those that happened against the Druze. But many people you talk to and you look over the past year

and given after 50 years of dictatorship, they were expecting that the situation would be worse, that the security situation would be more fragile, There is a lot to be done. Many people realize that the road to stability and safety is long, but the government is working hard. We have to also acknowledge that they're not experienced enough. They've been ruling only Idlibna.

Now they're ruling the whole country. There are some criticism about the way they're ruling and they are not being inclusive. But people are speaking out and pushing for the way forward for an inclusive government. an inclusive country that will be safe for everyone. You're in Aleppo now. I can hear a little bit of music behind.

You're kind of bringing us to the streets of Aleppo. But, you know, I remember, Lena, when you were heading back, trying to understand what had happened to your country. You left in 2013. That was soon after the start of the Civil War. And I'm just wondering what it's been like this past year as you go in and out. Well, I've been spending most of my time, reporting here in Syria and you know whether in Damascus or Latakia or elsewhere in the country

and you know it comes with its ups and downs you know frustrations disappointments but also when you talk to people and see how there is a heavy weight lifted off their chest you feel the hope and you feel that this is a really historical moment you know five decades of dictatorship and now a country in transition I mean there is a big criticism that this new government has its own past of crimes as well that they are not being held accountable for, that they are Islamist and trying to enforce Islamist rule in a country that is so diverse. And even the Sunnis in Syria are the tolerance, Sufi, not the Salafi, that is restricting social freedoms. So there are many challenges ahead. But I think this is a country of thousands of years of history,

and the people realize this and are fighting for it. And it's a long road. But It's starting. Thank you very much for joining us. That's Lena Sinja, the BBC's Middle East correspondent to the Syrian, as I mentioned, based in Lepa, but travelling all over the country. Thank you so much for giving your thoughts one year on from the fall of the Assad regime. I want to turn to free birthing next. I don't know whether you've heard about that.

It's giving birth without any medical help or intervention. And we want to talk about this because there's something that seems to be on the increase of late in the UK. It did originate in the States, as I mentioned, a little. earlier. But there is a new podcast by The Guardian, which is investigated an American organisation, the Free Birth Society, or FBS, as it's known. It is a multi-million dollar pound business, sorry, multi-million dollar business, pounds, probably if you translate. But some professionals do claim that it promotes at times dangerous views. I'm glad Sherin Calais is back with us, who undertook the investigation. She took it alongside her

colleague Lucy Osborne. You might remember they were both with us at the investigation into the actor Noel Clark. Good to have you back with us. Thank you for having me. So I think it'll be a new concept to lots of people. So let's get down to Brass Tacks. The Free Birth Society, who are they? The Free Birth Society is an organisation run by an ex-dula called Emily Saldaia from America. But it has become tremendously influential all over the world.

Most people find FBS, the Free Birth Society, through its podcast, which has been downloaded millions of times. And you might be wondering why an American organisation is so influential over here. but the thing is that many women listen to this podcast and they find it really compelling and women are sharing these wonderful stories of their free births on there. So Lucy Osborne, my reporting partner and I

had been investigating the Free Birth Society for a year now for our forthcoming Guardian investigation, The Birthkeepers, which is a podcast being released this week. And what we have found is that FBS promotes a very radical, very extreme version of free birth, whilst also not being fully transparent with women about some of the risks that can occur from this very extreme version of free birth

that they are popularised. How would you describe the podcast? I did listen to a little of it yesterday. I mean, the podcast is a great listen. People are listening to it, and they're having these wonderful stories of women who have had really incredible free births. And I want to be really clear.

And I might just kind of underline what the free birthing is as well, Cherin, so we're really clear. Free birthing is giving birth without any medical assistance. People get it confused with home birth, which is birth at home, midwife in attendance, but free birth is giving birth, usually at home, without any medical

assistance whatsoever. And, you know, most women who free birth will be absolutely fine, healthy, have healthy babies, be healthy themselves. But FBS, what it has done is that it's popularized this really extreme version of free birth where women, you know, are having wild pregnancies, which are pregnancies where you don't have any prenatal care whatsoever, you don't have any ultrasound. People are going very post-dates. Women are going to, you know, 43, 44, even 45. weeks of pregnancy, not known if they have any serious medical conditions and FBS tends to dismiss these very serious medical conditions as something that's not to be worried about whatsoever.

The one I was listening to was about bleeding post-natal, which they have views which would not be agreed on by many medical practitioners, for example, or a baby being born, for example, not breathing, not to resuscitate, things that would seem. extreme to many who are listening to it. But do you understand its popularity? Yes, I think women are choosing free birth often. Some women have a deep calling to free birth and they will always choose it no matter what. But I think some of the women who are choosing to free birth in the UK would have preferred to have a home birth with a midwife in attendance, but NHS home birth services are very overstretched. You can't always guarantee you'll have that. Or they've had unfortunately really

traumatic past experiences in hospital. And, you know, the trauma that women are experiencing in hospitals, I think, is quite well known now. We know that our maternity services are not very good over here. In America, you've got a very overly interventionive approach. Women often feel really pushed into procedures that they didn't want to have, seasetions that they didn't want to have, but they feel that they're on the clock. And so, you know, women are choosing free birth for really valid and legitimate reasons. But our guardian investigation also sadly found 48 cases in which women who appeared to have been influenced by FBS materials had suffered late-term stillbirth or neonatal deaths after they or their birth attendants were

influenced by FBS. But it is impossible, I would imagine, to definitively say that it was caused by free birthing. Of course, we will never know. We will never know whether those women would have experienced that, had they been in a hospital or not. And, you know, women also very sadly do lose babies in hospital too. But I think, you know, it's very legitimate to look at the free birth society because they have generated of everything is in excess of $13 million since 2018

according to our reporting Lucy Osborne. How did they make that money? So they have a very, very successful video course called the Complete Guide to Free Birth. It has been downloaded, millions of dollars worth of it has been downloaded. And they have these schools, these online schools called the Radical

Birth Keeper School and the Matry Birth Midwifery Institute has now been renamed. And, you know, the Radical Birth Keeper School was a three-month online course which pledged to train women via Zoom to go out and become so-called authentic midwives. And I think any midwife listening to this now is agree that you certainly can't learn how to do that

in three months via Zoom, you know, that's a lifetime's vocation and an apprenticeship model. A couple of issues. The NHS, you says that they're not considered very good. They would probably push back against that and also put them on a global scale of being good at their have. Of course, we've covered many times on this program, the failings within maternal care,

a number of reviews that are taking place at the moment. In relation to free birthing, I do want to read what an NHS spokesperson, hot to say. It says the NHS does not endorse the society or its ideology which could harm women. While it is the legal right for women to choose an unassisted birth in England, we strongly recommend accessing trained healthcare professionals to ensure the safety and well-being of both mother and baby. And if you do go down this route, you can change your mind at any time during pregnancy, including during labour, which I think is also interesting. and good for people to know.

And of course, any questions, as we always say on this programme, is to consult your healthcare professional. But I suppose part of this story is that people are not when it comes to free birthing. How many people did you find of stories that don't go according to plan? So we were able to interview 18 women who had, were able to provide us with very extensive cooperation that enable us to fact check those stories.

And what we found was this 18 women that we spoke to. there was strong evidence to suggest that after they had been influenced by FBS materials, by FBS podcasts, they had gone on to either experience serious harm themselves or had very sadly lost children. And these women are, I'm so moved by their courage in speaking to us. And many of these women really felt that FBS was not giving them full inaccurate information. And I think really I see the story actually as a story about information. You know, people can choose, women can choose, whatever mode of birth they want, all modes of birth are equally valid.

But I think you need to make that decision. based on accurate information and not somebody who's got a profit incentive like the Free Birth Society to give you inaccurate data. What are their qualifications to the people in the Free Birth Society? So Emily Sadea and Yolanda Neus-Clark,

her business partner are both doulas, so they're not medical professionals. And a doula is a woman generally, I'm sure can also be a man, that assists with the birth. A doula provides emotional and practical support to a woman during labour, but they are not medical providers,

they are not medical professionals, any midwifery or obstetric knowledge. And it is those two voices that you hear when you go to the podcast. We also came across this story because you found that the NHS had at one time directed women to the free birth society. Yeah, so the NHS was at one point until quite recently over the summer directing women to an information sheet from Ames, which is a maternity charity, and then that was redirecting women on to the Free Birth Society after the Guardian published a report on this specifically

AIMS and the NHS both removed that link. And what did the NHS have a statement? Yeah, the statement that you just read out yourself. Same as. Yeah. And I would, you know, the NHS has pushed back quite hard on this. I would love for the NHS to look at why home birth services have been closed because I know that many women who are choosing free birth.

It's not their first choice. I spoke to the family of a woman who died very sadly in 2024 in Ireland, Naomi James. Yes, I think. Yeah, and it wasn't her first choice either. She wanted to have a home birth, but she was risked out of it. You know, what we see, and I think Claire, or next guest, will probably talk to this, is that NHS home birth services have not recovered since the pandemic. And so while some women are choosing free birth because they truly want to free birth,

other women are choosing free births because they can't get access to home birth services. And I think that's a real problem. And so I'd love to see the NHS really address that. And have the Free Birth Society responded to your articles? They have not responded to articles other than one email to say that some of the allegations were false into fametary, but they've not provided any further information. Yeah, that's the status of that. Your podcast will be out later today or this week. I wasn't sure which it was, yeah.

Okay, well, thank you. Thank you very much, Sharon, for coming in and for talking us through the latest investigation that you've done with your colleague Lucy Osborne. But we want to continue talking about this. Joining me is Dr. Claire Feeley, midwife and senior lecturer at King's College London, who has done research into free birthing to talk about the free birth picture here in the UK. We've heard a little from Sharon. Claire, good to have you with us. I've heard Sharon explain what she has learned from women.

Why do you think some women choose to free birth in the UK? I think Sharon has captured the research beautifully, actually. Yes, some women, it's a philosophical belief and they're aligned to having an undisturbed birth. they feel is their safest birth. But for many women, it's a previous traumatic birth, particularly those that happen in hospital, and then they want to reclaim their agency and autonomy. So some of those women will go to book a home birth, and either they're not supported or the home birth isn't guaranteed, so free birth becomes that second or third choice.

And then for other women, certainly in my research study, they've actually had a positive first birth with midwives and attendance. And actually when they were pregnant the next time, they sort of unpicked. and reflected on that birth, and they came to the conclusion that they felt the midwives were redundant. But I think crucially for those women, and all of the ones in my study and the UK studies, recognised complications could occur, and they were really prepared for those and would action seeking help should they need it. Would you say it's on the increase in the UK? We think so. The numbers are incredibly difficult because our NHS recording data

systems don't have a button for free birth in most places. And obviously some women and birting people don't want to disclose because they're worried that they might be referred to social services, for example, even though they shouldn't be for that reason alone. So I would say the best estimate ballpark is possibly about 500, 600 a year. And when you've got 650,000 women birthing each year, the numbers are small, but we do believe they're probably growing. I thought it was interesting. Sharon was talking about information or misinformation, people trying to find a way through to a situation, I suppose, that they are happy with to give birth in. How do you combat misinformation? That is the million dollar question, isn't it? In the

day and age of social media, it's incredibly problematic for all of healthcare and maternity is not excluded from that. And I think the other problem we've got is the fact that there's not necessarily trusted sources necessarily on social media themselves. You know, midwives doctors that although there are some on there, but very, very busy people in the demands of NHS then to try and combat some of that misinformation, as you know, incredibly time consuming. And I think the other problem we've got in this day and age is the algorithms on social media. And that is, you know, you're going to generally see the most extreme. And I would also say on either end of the birth choice spectrum,

so you've got some people incredibly dogmatic about medicalised only pregnancy, labour and birth, and then you've got all the way to what Shiren and her colleagues have found with the Free Birth Society. And again, dogma on either end of the scale is just so incredibly unhelpful. I mentioned that it is a legal right for women, to give birth unassisted, which is quite interesting.

I think it's quite different actually to the United States where instead the laws, particularly as we know, over the past few years since Roe v. Wade was overturned. It is quite different depending on where you go. But do we have any statistics clear that you've seen for good outcomes compared to ones that didn't go according to plan? That's also incredibly challenging because we just don't have the data. I think most of us researchers generally compare the potential, what we think about free birthing to born before arrival, which we call BBA.

So that's when a woman perhaps hasn't made it into hospital on time or the midwife hasn't made it to her on time because she's birth so quickly. And for, on the most part, as Sharon pointed out, most part, those bursts actually go okay. The key areas of concern is potential bleeding from the mother or birthing person. And often babies might get cold. But I mean, that's easily, the baby getting cold is easily resolvable. So that's the closest we've got because we haven't had the prospective studies to demonstrate the safety profile. But that said, a lot of the population are incredibly healthy. The majority are clued up and arm themselves of information of potential complications

and are ready to take action should they need it. Because I think some of it is the actual birth. giving birth. And we've talked about some of the examples that can be on the extreme end as well, which you're in. But we do know, for example, with maternal deaths, that some of it can be after the fact, it can be mental health, postpartum, depression, which we've talked about as well many times on this programme. I'm just wondering, does that figure into this conversation at all? I would say that might be an indirect motivating factor. if someone's had a previous traumatic birth and they feel that has been had the negative

knock-on consequence throughout their postnatal experience, early transition to motherhood, postpartum depression, PTSD, then that is, we know, is the factor in deciding whether to free birth to safeguard their mental health in the future pregnancy or future postpartum. I just seen a message that's come in. It's a little long, bear with me. Let me read with you. Free birthing. While I was pregnant, I met free birth. birthers and was influenced by the idea that you can have the birth that you want. I decided I would have a free birth and did all sorts of preparation like hypnoborthing, pregnancy, massage, etc.

Because of this and not cultivating a good relationship with my local midwife, I ignored early labour signs that signalled something was wrong. The contractions were mild and going on for a couple of days and I felt fine. I regarded midwives as trigger-happy interventionists that might interfere with the beautiful birth I was sure to have. Finally, a midwife came by and read my wife. my baby's heart rate and it was dangerously dropping with each mild contraction. I was rushed to hospital for an emergency C-section, which was traumatic.

The staff were clearly very angry that my baby had been in this danger for so long. Free birth is great if you're lucky enough for it all to go well, but don't go around telling everyone they can definitely have it. I think it creates a sense that those that have achieved it are some sort of super race of mothers. Thanks for getting in touch, 844 if you would like to. But what would you say, Claire, for women who are thinking of reburthing? I would say really need to understand the signs and symptoms of potential complications

and that's obviously during pregnancy and many women and birthing people in the UK will have some midwifery care during their pregnancy so their blood pressures are being checked the urine's been checked for important things like preeclampsia but those things around that early labour and the story that you've just read out I mean I'm just so pleased you did contact a midwife and for me one of my intentions with my research has always been to communicate with the NHS. So we've got to keep the doors open. We've got to have been non-judgmental and support those women. So if they're making that choice, but they must know the signs and symptoms and hopefully they will get in contact if there is a

problem. Do you feel that door of communication is open? It depends on where you are. And there's some midwives who are doing an incredible job of being so supportive of all women's choices. So they've built that trust. They've built that relationship. And certainly in my late, to research from the midwives perspective that did happen. Women who disclosed they were free birthing called the midwife when they're in labour and they had that care. But sadly, I don't think

it's happening consistently enough all up and down the country. And we know that because the women are telling us. Thank you very much to Dr. Claire Feeley and to Shirin Calais, investigative reporter for the Guardian. 844, if you would like to get in touch we talked about insurance podcast. I want to tell you

about another BBC podcast. that I'm presenting. It's called Send in the Spotlight and it aims to reimagine support for special educational needs and disabilities. Put simply, demand is outstripping supply and too many children are being left without the support that they need or that they have to go too far away from home to go to school. You will have heard many talk about the system being broken.

Well, the government is embarking on an overhaul of the Send system in England. I'm speaking to families, teachers, experts, decision makers and asking, How can every child learn and thrive? I want to bring you a snippet from episode one. This features the schools minister answering questions on those reforms and the two actors and send parents that you may be familiar with already. Kelly Bright and Anna Maxwell Martin.

When I first started speaking out publicly about my experience as a send parent, I really did it for one primary reason, which was to start a conversation and make some noise. because I knew that I wasn't going to be the only parent out there going through what I was going through, feeling the way I was feeling. And yet I knew that for a lot of parents, they do feel so invisible and they feel like their voices are never heard. And it was really important for me to feel like I could, because I'm privileged to be in a position where I can have a big reach, I wanted to make some noise around this so that we could really get some fundamental change

and make this system that is failing so many families better. And we are here to reimagine. For you, Anna, what does it mean? Very similar to Kelly. Only that, I don't think I did feel at the time there were other people out there. I think I felt very, very isolated. And I love the idea of this podcast as a shared community

where people can contribute and talk about their lived experience and also we can talk about how we change the system and maybe have an influence on that. I think, you know, we do need to make changes, huge changes in terms of meeting children's needs in school, in the school environment if they are able to be in school. I think we need to think about removing the stigmas on parents and children. children, those children are unable to be in school.

It's not they don't want to, they can't. And it's very, very distressing. It's very impactful on the home and on child development. And it's very lonely. And I just want, you know, if there's someone listening today who has had a sort of really hellish morning and their child feels unable to go to school and they need to go to work and they're staring down the barrel of cancelling something and they can't get help at school. It'd be amazing to buoy someone up today so that they actually think, oh, yeah, there's loads of us, you know, struggling.

And I'm not a terrible parent and I'm doing my best and it will make me pull my child closer rather than push them away because I feel so fearful right now. Kelly Bright and Anna Maxwell Martin there, buoying people up. That is the idea. Thanks to both Anna and Kelly. joining me on the first episode of our new Send in the Spotlight podcast. It's on BBC Sounds, do subscribe, so you don't have to go hunting for it every time. Thank you so much to all of you who've gone into it already, just at the mere mention of a Send podcast.

We really appreciate it, and I am looking forward to you joining us as we bring you the episodes. Now, Radio 4 has launched its annual Christmas appeal with the charity St. Martin in the fields. It's to support those who are experiencing or who are at risk of homelessness across the UK. We want to return to Rowan Alba. This is a place we heard about last year. It's a homelessness charity. It's based in Edinburgh and it offers women's supported housing with a psychology service for women who are resident there and it's funded by St. Martin in the

fields, the psychology part of it. I'm joined on the line now by Elvira, who had previously been homeless and Sarah Phillips, who's a counselling psychologist who splits her time between NHS work and work for Rowan Alba. Welcome to both of you. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Sarah, this is quite unusual, right, for a psychologist to work in this setting? Yes, it is. I think there are a handful of psychologists around the country working in homeless accommodation and I'm fortunate enough that I'm employed by the NHS in this partnership project with Rehanalba and I go into the hostel one day a week and see the women there. And one of the women

that you met was Alvira. Alvira, welcome to the programme. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for joining us. I hear you now do have a home. Yes, I do. Basically, I was homeless for three years and finally this year I got offered

a place. And so the past few years looking back it's been quite the journey, I believe. What do you think helped you the most during that time? I think it was just hope that soon I'll be able to get my own place and start over by myself independently. So yeah.

Because it was Sarah, right, who's sitting beside you now in the Edinburgh studio who also used to come in when you were in supported accommodation. What difference did that make? When I first moved into the accommodation, I was very scared. I felt isolated. I had no one to talk to. And then after a while, I started to really feel at home with staff in the accommodation helping me. And then obviously, once Sarah arrived,

We started having sessions together and she helped me bring up my confidence and just helped me just to become myself again. It's wonderful and I think I was reading you were a professional chef. Yes. That's what you have been before becoming homeless. But I'm wondering what it's like now when you have your own home to be able to create that sense again whether it's cooking you know what I mean having somewhere that's yours yeah so before it was like kind of restricted so we weren't allowed to have frying like anything for frying or anything like that and we had to be careful because obviously we were sharing a kitchen and we weren't

allowed to like leave things and but now that I'm by myself it's just like I can just use the be able to like whenever I'm cooking there's no one there to actually come and annoy me so it's just like me just doing my thing and not having someone else being like oh I need to use the kitchen now so yeah yeah I'm probably getting back to your sense itself because that's who you were yes right exactly yes yeah and I'm wondering as well Alvira the fact that Sarah was able to come to you in your supported accommodation as opposed to you going to, you know, an NHS setting, be it a clinic or something like that. What did that mean?

So when I first initially was diagnosed with depression and other things, they basically told me that I would have to wait over three years for a psychologist or even a therapist. but having Sarah there it was just instant help so I felt like I wasn't alone

and having that encouragement and having that help actually helped me to overcome some of my issues which if I never had that

I would have had to wait three six years along the line to get a professional help. Oh my goodness, it is so long. Sarah, tell me a little bit about your day-to-day work, what it looks like, and I'm so happy that you had that connection with Elvira and that Elvira is doing so well, as she tells us. Yeah, no, it's been absolutely great working with Elvera.

So a little bit about Elvira's story, she and I met, we did a couple of sessions to kind of assess where she was at, get her history, and then linked her into one of the groups that it's run by Adult Mental Health Psychology. She went to the group and then came back and did some individual work with me. On a day-to-day basis in the hostel, I will go in. I will have some of the people in the hostel already booked in with an appointment with me, but other women who may be new to the hostel.

I'll give them a couple of weeks to settle in, get used to the environment, and then we'll arrange to meet them and kind of take it from there with them. It's also about checking in with the staff and working with the staff there. So we have run a number of training events over the last year and then I also offer staff reflective practice sessions so as a team they can come together

and talk a bit about how they're supporting the staff and how they are. managing with with the roles that they have so so what is some of the challenges that the staff might have for example oh what are some of the challenges well you know the staff they are coming into work with their own their own personal lives and some of the women that they are meeting their their histories can be really distressing um so dealing with that and beginning to understand what the women have been through and what support that they need.

And sometimes the behaviour of the women can be challenging to staff and can be difficult. You know, it might be for staff having to repeat the same messages and offer the same support and often sometimes the women will really, struggle with that because they have been let down by people so many times over the years either on a personal level or by services. And so for staff it is about gaining the trust of the women and that can take time.

And that in itself can be a challenge. Yeah, and it could be a forgotten part of it actually, the whole ecosystem to try and help somebody get to the next level. We're talking about getting to the next level. Alvira, how are you feeling about the holidays? Would you be cooking over Christmas? I think I'll be having a day off because I think my mum will be doing all the cooking.

Okay, good. So I don't have to do much. But I think my sister will be also coming in for a Christmas dinner. But we're not 100% sure yet because it's not even past my birthday. So you have a birthday coming up? Yeah, the 23rd of December. Oh, wow, you're just a pre-Christmas baby.

Yeah. Well, I do hope that you have a wonderful one, and I'm so glad that you have found, Sarah the psychologist, being helpful to you and also the charities with the work that they do as well. That's Alvira, thank you for sharing, and Sarah Phillips. And if you would like to find out more about how you could support this year's appeal

in aid of homelessness, just search online for BBC Radio for Christmas Appeal. Now, I want to move on to a person who was here just the other day. That was Jacinda Ardern, the former Prime Minister of New Zealand. In case you missed it, Jacinda joined Kylie Pentelow on Woman's Hour and spoke about what it means to lead with empathy. She told Kylie how the trait she once saw as a weakness became her greatest strength. Oh, Jacinda Ardern is not playing just yet.

But we'll try and get that sorted for you. But in the meantime, I do want to turn to a woman who has just come into our studio. That is Sarah Mughal Rana. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. I was going to meet you. So we have revenge, grief, identity and injustice. Just some of the themes in your debut novel, Dawn of the Firebird.

It's an epic, action-packed fantasy embracing Islamic culture and lore. And your protagonist is described as an assassin. traitor and savior, trained in martial arts and magic. Now that makes for an interesting mix. Yes. I think it was a lot of fun to write to someone who's both terrifying but also relatable.

And so, you know, if you have someone who can fight and kick someone's ass, but then also be soft-hearted, emotional and like someone that we can empathize with, I think it tells an interesting story. See, empathy, empathize. You know, just in our turn, she was leading the country,

Also with empathy, as we were hearing. Well, let's hear a little bit from your book. Before we do, I'm just curious because this is your first adult novel. You previously wrote young adult fiction. What was the changeover like? Actually, this was my first ever novel. It's just that my YA novel came out first because it's a shorter book. It was poetry.

But Donna the Firebird was my first ever story. So you were working on that, yes. Yes. I actually wrote this novel when I was quite young. I started working on it. You're still quite young. Yes, I guess so. You know, everything's relative.

But I started with me. I just turned 25. Okay. Yeah. So I was working on this around the age of 13, 14. And it was a labor of love because the world just encapsulated me. And I worked on it on and off and finished the first draft when I was 18. And then I got into a mentorship program.

And from there got my agent. And then shortly after I got my publishing deal almost three years ago. And just knocking. at the young adult novel on the side there. What are your inspirations for fantasy storytelling? I think at its core, especially with Donna the Firebird, I wanted to write a story about a woman who stands out. She still goes through a lot of the things that many women do,

which is grief, which is trying to find your identity, being objectified where you're seen as a tool, as a weapon, and you're finding your sense of self in a world that is always against you, that always doubts you. And Camilla, my protagonist, encompasses that. She's someone who's nameless at the start of the story. She's young. And before she becomes this terrifying warrior

that knows how to wield a dagger, that knows how to do this terrifying magic with cosmic light, she actually is a storyteller at first. Her weapon is her voice. Very good weapon to have. Shall we listen to a little of you reading? Yes. Go for it.

this is dawn off the firebird okay i'll just start off the first few paragraphs i would inherent the power of the heavens umma had said so but my power was a curse this she did not have to say like any great legend my tale began with tragedy and the stories later recounted from my maternal uncle my Amma had a glad tiding the night of my birth, as all mothers of gifted children did. It was near the winter solstice in the year 495. She dreamt of light emanating from my infant body, basing her in a cool glow. She knew the divine had shown the power I would come to inherit. Nor, cold heavenly light, the same spiritual power that flows through the firebird.

But that night, when I sprang free of Amma's womb, Our chieftains dreamt of a world of darkness, war and destruction. As I mentioned some of the themes, let us talk about this heavenly magic of Noor that gives her power to wield a cosmic light. What is it? So cosmic light actually was drawn from Islam. We call it Noor. It's basically silver, cold light, and it's seen as very divine, very good, very moral, and it's a blessing.

And I wanted to juxtapose that against classic. fantasy stories we have where people wield elemental magic like fire, wind, air, right? Or they have any other kind of power. I had grown up, you know, loving C.S. Lewis, loving Tolkien. I myself went to Oxford and I was in the footsteps editing the book, which is where they also worked on their work. But I think I was a bit fatigued of seeing stories where you saw typical allegories from Judeo-Christian stories from the Bible. And I wanted to write something that had all the hallmarks of a classic fantasy but still showed something that was familiar to me

but still new and fresh and that's where the firebird who's typically fire came to be but in the book it's not fire, it's newer, it's cosmic light so it's still using those classic ideas where it's accessible to anyone but it has a lot of what was familiar to me and that's why I decided to go down that road

and you mentioned there very briefly social history this is fascinating so you want to tell the story as well through people and objects, as opposed to this linear narrative at times. Yes. I think an assumption that many people have is that to tell a story has to be chronological, that you just go down dates and time. This happened. Yes.

But in Camilla's world, I wanted to make sure that I shine a light on the social aspects. What ranking is she? She's a nomad. She's a barbarian. She's seen as an other, as a foreigner. and every single person in their life has felt like that, a new job, a new student, a country you visit on vacation or immigration. That's something that's such a human experience and it's such a social experience.

And a lot of scholars now in history are starting to look at history from a social lens. And why not tell a story that way? Why not use objects like daggers? Why not use trade and the lush, you know, jewels that you're trading, the caravan routes on the in the desert routes. Using that kind of tapestry helps paint a picture where you're not looking at

someone from above, you're in the story with them. So for Camila, you're with her side by side. And you mentioned a dagger. I want to hear more about your love of daggers and the importance

that you see in them. So in Donna of the Firebird, the magic system is constructed around daggers. Your power, your ranking, your proximity to the emperor is through dagger. I train in traditional martial arts.

And which martial arts do you do? I do traditional kung fu. And I do want to, you know, work my way up to doing the long sort. But that helped ignite a passion of collecting very historic daggers. So from the Mughal period, even from the Roman period, my sister and I collect weapons. And every time I travel, I do that. I try to get some kind of blade. I know it's a bit weird.

But it's a lovely collection to have. And I put that kind of jade daggers, bejeweled daggers, gold threaded handles. into the book to give it life. And it's something I think traditionally that has been considered a masculine implement. Yes. You know, who doesn't want to see a woman

taking down the people who've oppressed her her whole life? And why not with a beautiful bejewed dagger? And so, you know, the book is a very wintry kind of book. It's cold. It's harsh. There's men who are really doubting Camila, the main character. But in it, she has, you know, beautiful weapons.

She has this gorgeous magic, but she was also a terrifying person. So it was fun to write someone who's so cold on the inside, so emotional at times, but also able to wield terrifying weapons. Also wielding magic, because the story is also about gin. Do you want to explain that a little bit? Yes, so a lot of us grow up on classic stories, even in Christmas time. You know, we have amazing kind of ghost stories or legends that we pass around. For many cultures, though, especially in Asia, North Africa, the Middle East, we have gin.

These aren't made-up creatures that we don't not believe in. They're like our equivalent of ghost stories, but we do believe in it. And I was tired of seeing gin only used in a horror sense as an oriental kind of object in the background. In my world, it's intrinsic to Donna the Firebird. Camilla does see gin. She does meet these different creatures. Even the submerged, the firebird in the book, is considered a gin-like creature,

you know, in a different kind of parallel world. And I wanted to make it accessible. So I do break that down in the book. I have a glossary in the book that defines all of these terms. But I wanted to make sure I was authentic to what Jin were to us, which is beings that exist and are not always terrifying. We mentioned a lot of the things that there are, something that there isn't, which there are in the manner.

books is a love interest. Yes. So there will be a love interest. I kind of put the crumb... Oh, there will be a love interest. Yes. This is not the first. It's a trilogy. It's a trilogy. And I put the crumbs of someone and something I find fun is when readers, early readers, tag me really excited with theories about who they think will be the love interest. But at its core, Camila's story was about love of all kinds. And as women, we all go through that. We have relationship love, platonic love, siblings. maternal, all of it. And so my goal with this book was to explore Camilla, going through sibling, maternal, protective love.

And then side, little by little, the romantic love will come. But she is someone who's very traumatized. She goes through a unique kind of grief. And I want to make sure I take my time and not rush that romance to give it what it deserves. You've brought us some of the prose already, which gives this image of wild adventures. I understand when I was looking at your Instagram,

that you've sold TV rights already? Yes. We just sold TV rights a few months ago. And it's in the works to hopefully be filmed later on in the fall this year in conjunction with the U.S., Turkey, in Pakistan. Because Turkish shows are up and coming. There's the most viewed shows in the world, historical ones. And Erthagol is one example of a beautiful aesthetic that shows off kind of the Islamicate world,

the beautiful weapons, the costumes. And we wanted to work with people who understand, that design and aesthetic well. It sounds like, I would imagine also from reading your book, that you already see it. I do because I'm an executive producer as well. So I have been getting to consult. But really, it's about making sure Donna the Firebird is given the love that it deserves and that the world is done faithfully instead of not faithfully. Is Camilla part of you at all? In some ways, she is a woman who's struggling to find her identity. She's quite young. I started writing her story when I was younger than her. Now I'm a little bit older than her

by the end of the book. And so I've kind of grown up with her. And seeing her go through grief, first loves, and trying to understand how to fit in in a magical school while I was at Oxford was so harrowing. Because I wanted to fit in there, but I also wanted to stay true to myself. And so writing her arc where she does that was exactly kind of what I went through at Oxford. So that kind of dual identity as well, which you explore so beautifully. Dual reality, because she had a hidden identity, and I have a full-time job. I was a full-time student. I was in student politics, but I was a secret author on the side.

I never told anyone, but they found out gradually. They're definitely going to find out now. Sarah Mughal-Ran's debut novel is Dawn of, a debut, I should say, adult fiction novel, Dawn Off the Firebird. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I want to go back to Jacinda Ardurne. I told you she was on the program last week.

Let's listen to a little of her talking about her greatest strength and empathy. I do talk about, you know, as a kid who worried a lot, you know, or was a bit thin-skinned and pretty empathetic. You know, is there a place for you in politics? And I certainly when I first came and thought, I've chosen a really terrible career for all of these. If you have all of these character traits, actually you feel quite, you know, suited to that environment. I remember coming out of the...

debating chamber one time and just feeling absolutely brutalized. You know, a couple of people in the chamber had a real personal goal at me, and I came out thinking, oh, I have got to harden up, you know, otherwise this is just going to be a misery. And I asked the toughest guy I knew in our team, his name was Trevor. But that's when he said to me, you know, don't toughen up. Don't try and build thick skin, because if you do that, you'll lose your empathy. and I don't think I'd ever seen

that perceived weakness as being attached to a strength and yet it was and so I just made the decision that actually I valued that strength more than the weakness it gave me and that I just needed to carry them both. Dessenda R. Dern, of course the former Prime Minister of New Zealand

talking about her time in office and leading with compassion. You can listen back to the full interview on BBC Sounds the episode is from the 4th of December you might also come across some of our Clips from the interview on the BBC Woman's Hour Instagram account. I do want to let you know that on tomorrow's Women's Hour, we're going to be talking about bows.

No, not just those ones that are on the Christmas presents. We're also going to be exploring their history and why ultra-feminine bows are back in fashion. That will be, of course, from 10 a.m. tomorrow. Also, I just want to thank you for all your comments that are coming in on free birthing. We were talking about that earlier in the program. I will read them all. and I want to thank you also for your company today.

I'll see you tomorrow. That's all for today's woman's hour. Join us again next time. Hi, I'm Katie Razzle. And for BBC Radio 4 from Shadow World, this is Anatomy of a cancellation. I'm a symbol of a particular time and an extreme version of cancel culture.

Poet and teacher Kate Clanchie wrote a book about her 30-year teaching career, which was initially praised. It's a wonderful book. But later, others said it was racist and deeply problematic. The language in this book is so dehumanising. Unjustified cancellation? Long overdue reckoning?

Subscribe to Shadow World, Anatomy of a cancellation on BBC Sounds.